Newbie 2109: Taco Hemingway | Game Over

[Dionysus]

It loads for me!

[Dionysus]

I would never let mere odds get in the way of my intuition

Surely stating that your intuition is horribly wrong doesn't get me pushed further, right?

In all seriousness, fluff aside, the only notable thing that has happened till now is Dionysus' response, saying that Weuler's pfp loads for him, in response to me. AKA responding to fluff when he could respond to existing game content (Space's vote on him) or drop his own vote.

Therefore, I shall VOTE: Dionysus.

Well, up until this post there was no proper game content to respond to, only fluff. None of the votes on me were serious (because I have "sus" in my name? Come on). However you are pinging me with this with trying to rush an elimination so quickly on day 1. VOTE: CCGeek

[Dionysus]

Actually, UNVOTE: CCGeek as don't want to rush one myself but my fos is on your for now.

[Dionysus]

Town(by exclusion)FroggyMaybe, CCGeek, AurorusVox, Space, Weuler, Wayward Son


Scum:Dionysus, Fredrick A Campbell

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

(Their reactions to Dionysus being E-2 are awful)

What is particularly awful about my response? Having someone E-2 so quickly is advantageous to scum.

[Dionysus]

Also the fact that my first vote got taken seriously I find is a little funny.

I assume the person you think took this seriously was me but I didn't.

[Dionysus]

No, the person I saw who took it seriously was CCG surprisingly.
Mainly thinking of this quote (Bolded Text):

In all seriousness, fluff aside, the only notable thing that has happened till now is Dionysus' response, saying that Weuler's pfp loads for him, in response to me. AKA responding to fluff when he could respond to

existing game content (Space's vote on him)

or drop his own vote.

Fair. I was myself surprised I was expected to respond to this. Curious to see what CCG has to say now

[Dionysus]

Town(by exclusion)FroggyMaybe, CCGeek, AurorusVox, Space, Weuler, Wayward Son


Scum:Dionysus, Fredrick A Campbell

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

(Their reactions to Dionysus being E-2 are awful)

Could you explain the difference between Campbell's reaction and Aurorus's reaction?

Not Known 15, Space and CCGeek are voting Dionysus, putting Dionysus at E-2.
VOTE: CCGeek
I don't believe what I quoted was an innocent mistake.

So, out of the blue Campbell assumes that this was not an innocent mistake. There is absolutely no town reason for Campbell to have this strong of an opinion. This looks like a total overreaction! Mistakes can happen, and wrongly saying that E-2 is E-3 after someone correctly said E-3 is not something scum would plan to make, usually. And because it came just 2 minutes after the previous posts it is very believable that CCGeek didn't check everything again and assumed that Weuler had made a mistake; after all, it was just one page(and people are usually overconfident that they don't make easy mistakes like that).
So, why would Campbell do this? Perhaps to avoid their partner to be put in an awkward position early...

I would never let mere odds get in the way of my intuition

Surely stating that your intuition is horribly wrong doesn't get me pushed further, right?

In all seriousness, fluff aside, the only notable thing that has happened till now is Dionysus' response, saying that Weuler's pfp loads for him, in response to me. AKA responding to fluff when he could respond to existing game content (Space's vote on him) or drop his own vote.

Therefore, I shall VOTE: Dionysus.

Well, up until this post there was no proper game content to respond to, only fluff. None of the votes on me were serious (because I have "sus" in my name? Come on). However you are pinging me with this with trying to rush an elimination so quickly on day 1. VOTE: CCGeek

Actually, UNVOTE: CCGeek as don't want to rush one myself but my fos is on your for now.

and indeed, this reaction is absolutely terrible!
Trying to rush an elimination so quickly on day 1?

Honestly, I would've understood if this fuss was about me accidentally putting someone at E-1. But even in that case, on a D1, I wouldn't have withdrawn my vote, since the slot in question hasn't posted their thoughts yet.

Nope! It's not! Not withdrawing your vote after everyone knows it is E-1 isn't rushing an elimination.
And then knowing that CCGeek is at E-2(CCGeek personally said it's E-2) puts them at E-1 without saying E-1?
Then realizes the mistake and unvotes?
And that's town?
Nope. Normally, town is generally less self-aware. Here, however... doing the exact same thing you criticize? In the exact same post? Town believes in what they say. Scum doesn't, and is actually much more likely to make a thought mistake like that and then to realize what they have done.

I will hold my hands up and admit that I replied to CCG before I had caught up on page 2. I didn't realise that anyone else had picked up on what he had done and voted for him because of it. But I immediately unvoted because I didn't want a scum to hammer if he is Town.

But this is not the same as I had a game-relevant reason to vote for CCG but the vote he had put on me at that point was entirely due to my response to the fluff talk that was happening because no game chat had actually taken place.

[Dionysus]

This may be debatable, but I feel RVS votes are game content. And I genuinely think that it is not pro-town to open with voteless fluff that does not start a conversation or contribute to an ongoing conversation.

This is probably just a point of disagreement, but with RVS there is a fine line between game content and trolling. Pretty much every vote cast up till this point was borderline trolling. I understand the point of RVS but there was nothing worth responding to until you pointed the finger at me.

[Dionysus]

@ Dionysus Do you have a main suspect atm?

I've re-read the thread and I'm going to change my mind on how I've read the game so far. I bought into CCG being scum because it seemed like he was trying to get the game to a state where someone could "accidentally" hammer a townie by getting me to E-2 but saying E-3. This is still a potential scum move but it isn't a smoking gun and I would rather revisit it later in the game if need be.

My main suspect now is Frederick A Campbell. Aside from pushing this narrative hard and getting me swept up in it, he has posted his scum and town reads but hasn't provided anything to back them up and has so far not posted much of real substance after that initial push for CCG.

Following that, I have re-read Space specifically because FAC singled him out as town. I also townread him for now. Probably more than anyone, so I don't think that was necessarily scum trying to paint a scum partner as town.

I'm going to put my vote on FAC which will bring him to E-2. I will unvote though if he gets to E-1. I am not comfortable with someone being on E-1 unless town is ready to hammer because it is inherently risky.

VOTE: Frederick A Campbell

[Dionysus]

The thing with Campbell's logic is that if he is executed and is Town then the first thing I would do day 2 is look at who voted for him. So it would be a smart scum strategy to keep off him and get credit for not executing a townie.

But the argument being presented feels like scum scrabbling to try and save themselves. It doesn't feel like a townie making a pro town argument or logical deduction.

[Dionysus]

The thing with Campbell's logic is that if he is executed and is Town then the first thing I would do day 2 is look at who voted for him. So it would be a smart scum strategy to keep off him and get credit for not executing a townie.

But the argument being presented feels like scum scrabbling to try and save themselves. It doesn't feel like a townie making a pro town argument or logical deduction.

Whatever my signature says, logical deduction is quite hard to accomplish in mafia.

Regarding Campbell: He is making life very easy for scum who want to hammer him by not elaborating on his reads. It is easy to discredit reads that don't have any justification whatsoever. Well-justified reads carry more weight if Camp gets hammered and flips green.

BIB: not true in my experience. Maybe in a small game like this it is difficult, but after a few days once more information is made available to town it can be quite easy to deduce scum through logic.

[Dionysus]

Can I ask a very newbie question? Is there a glossary somewhere of acronyms/phrases?

[Dionysus]

@Dio: why have you ignored everything I have said about you?

Also: what acronyms are you wanting to know? Have you checked the wiki?

You mean your paragraph about not believing me saying I bought into Campbell's narrative? I don't really have anything to say to it. You don't believe me. I don't think I will change your mind by trying to debate this specific point and will probably just end up looking scummier to you. Or is there another post I have missed?

[Dionysus]

Also the acronym I had a question about was p-edit. and yes very familiar with the wiki, thank you!

[Dionysus]

Mainly why you avoided answering my question in #68: why me putting CCG at E-2 quickly wasn’t worthy of your suspicion but CCG doing it (potentially accidentally) was? And there was a further point in there about why you are so hesitant to use your vote with any conviction (you’ve continued this with the declaration you’d unvote Frederick if he reached E-1)

P-edit = preview edit: when you edit your post after you initially submit, after seeing new posts which come up in the preview step.

I answered this already in #59. CCG did it off the back of fluff. CCG being at E-2 later on wasn't off the back of fluff. Same for Campbell now.

And I think don't know how else to explain my hesitance beyond what I have said: I don't want scum to hammer a townie. But if you want some clarity I won't be lifting my vote from Campbell unless something big changes as the day progresses. The consensus is forming that his behaviour is flailing scum, a read I share and I would be comfortable with him being hammered.

[Dionysus]

Weuler is town now in my opinion

Why do you now Town read Weuler? What has changed?

[Dionysus]

Dionysus played the game as a casual commenter up until others (such as Not Known) began making larger and more in-depth posts, in which case he began also making comprehensive posts, but mostly about game mechanics. Posts such as 102 and 113 are both good mechanic posts (going the full way through the scenario Campbell's logic causes and discussing the reasoning for their hesitation on giving scum an easier time hammering), but they're then forced to carry the weight of actual reads that Dion seems not confident enough in to let them sit in their own post (claiming Campbell's is just pretending to have such logic as a cover and stating that there is a "consensus" on them flailing, respectively).

Welcome to the game

I want to just dispute your final point about me not being confident in my reads to let them sit in their own post. [post=#p13610841]#78[/post] is where I point the finger at Campbell I think quite confidently, I followed this up in other posts you have referenced. You may disagree with me, but it is there. The more Campbell posts, the more sure I am that he is scum (his latest post making another u-turn for example, he's all over the place). I think it seems you disagree with me on consensus forming around him being flailing scum simply because you read him as town yourself.

[Dionysus]

Spoiler: relevant posts

I’m not a fan on the way Frederick is playing things out here. It’s anti town at the very least and could signal flaily scum. I find it strange that he is saying scum won’t be pushing him but then scum reads one person who has voted him and another who has been questioning him…

In fact on the scum not pushing him angle, it feels like everyone in the thread has now expressed suspicion of Frederick (except the replacement slot by virtue of not being here). From town!Fred’s view, at least one scum must be pushing him, but he hasn’t considered that angle at all. That’s the biggest red flag to me in the whole scenario.

I’m also conscious that a theoretical scum!Fred would either have to be partnered with Froggy-slot or is being bussed thanks to the fact everyone seems to be on his case. We should wait for the replacement to post either way; but I note with interest the fact of Dio voting and saying he would unvote if it got to E-1.

Wayword Son didn't really even push me. The same goes for Weuler.

[/vote]CampbellVOTE: To me it seems like he's dug himself a hole that he cannot get out of. I don't like the minimal answers that has been provided so far, and I cannot see why town would play in that way.

This is E-1 I hope this gets them talking.

Weuler is town now in my opinion

Weuler is town now in my opinion

Why do you now Town read Weuler? What has changed?

Campbell is currently giving townreads like candy to anyone who votes them, which I doubt the effectiveness of.

Dion, hello! Do you have any thoughts about my entry to the game (I'm especially interested in what you might have in mind about my reads on Campbell and Wayward) that you'd like to discuss?

{P-EDIT: 123! Thank you for welcoming me! Reading back to 78, you do pivot directly onto Campbell after backing off of CCG, and it is a post I like. I'm more under the belief that Campbell isn't flailing and instead refusing to speak about their thought processes regardless of the pressure put on them, maybe even clamming up more out of spite, with a Mafia!Campbell having tried to go on damage control long before they get hammered early day one. I am still interested if you have any other thoughts on my other reads that didn't involve you, if you'd like to chat about them!}

Campbell, do you think that you're a town wagon being pushed by other townies? In that case, who is off your wagon that must be wolf? Do you believe that the Dionysus wagon is similarly town ran, or that one or both of CCG and Aurora must be wolves on his wagon if yours is town? And, as a side note, why are you still voting Weuler if you are now town reading them?

It is a bizarre strategy from Campbell if he is town, especially since he has already conceded he has come across the most suspicious. I don't think going from that to this almost erratic behaviour is pro town at all. I don't follow your logic in your town read of him.

Regarding your reads on the other players: Aurorus is the one I'm most confident are town. For Aurorus the way he has come for me has read as confident townie. I did have a strong townread on Space, but I just reread his ISO and he has been more under the radar than I remember. I agree with your take on Weuler.

You have triggered me to reread Wayword Son and I actually also get a strong scumread but for different reasons. He pings me because he hasn't given reads on anyone full stop. In post #58 he even says he has a scumread but doesn't want to discuss it yet but so far hasn't been forthcoming. Meanwhile has asked others (me) for scumreads, stirred up suspicion in Campbell by repeatedly asking him to clarify his reasoning. He's coasting so far, sitting back, not contributing.

Hmm. I am going to have a think about him vs Campbell. They can both be scum together and this is WS's attempt at clearing himself by bussing his partner. But I need to contemplate it.

[Dionysus]

It is a bizarre strategy from Campbell if he is town, especially since he has already conceded he has come across the most suspicious. I don't think going from that to this almost erratic behaviour is pro town at all. I don't follow your logic in your town read of him.

Regarding your reads on the other players: Aurorus is the one I'm most confident are town. For Aurorus the way he has come for me has read as confident townie. I did have a strong townread on Space, but I just reread his ISO and he has been more under the radar than I remember. I agree with your take on Weuler.

You have triggered me to reread Wayword Son and I actually also get a strong scumread but for different reasons. He pings me because he hasn't given reads on anyone full stop. In post #58 he even says he has a scumread but doesn't want to discuss it yet but so far hasn't been forthcoming. Meanwhile has asked others (me) for scumreads, stirred up suspicion in Campbell by repeatedly asking him to clarify his reasoning. He's coasting so far, sitting back, not contributing.

Hmm. I am going to have a think about him vs Campbell. They can both be scum together and this is WS's attempt at clearing himself by bussing his partner. But I need to contemplate it.

Campbell is absolutely playing antitown regardless of alignment right now, I will agree with that. I'm hoping that if given the benefit of the doubt, Campbell might be willing to clear things up, I just don't see them being an obvious wolf with their posts so far. They do seem so far to be almost early mis-elim bait, and the fact that they've gotten to E-1 with barely any resistance tells me that there's probably one wolf either pushing Campbell or sitting on his wagon, regardless of what he says about townreading everyone who votes him.

That's the reason that I want to push Wayward, he's tried to look productive with a handful of questions but hasn't said anything that can be tied to Wayward as a read he believes in and unlike Campbell's hotheaded approach to the game so far, he's seemed more calculating in what he chooses to comment on. Regardless of whether you think Campbell is a wolf or not, he's easy to target and post about in a way that controls the thread while letting either his partner or the wolf team slip under the radar and only need to chip in slightly when they see fit.

The lack of resistance could be a scum pushing him knowing he's town, but it could also be that they know his goose is cooked and it is more damaging to them to try and save him.

But he is E-1 for now and his response to that was to say he now townreads Weuler. I need more

[Dionysus]

Dion did not unvote from Campbell upon them hitting E-1 like they stated they would, either. If Campbell does flip Mafia, they absolutely were getting bussed and Dion would be one of the first slots I follow up with in more detail.

I want to address this as I feel like more than one other player has picked up on it. I thought my post was clear but apparently it wasn't. Me saying I would unvote Campbell

was not

unconditional.

I'm going to put my vote on FAC which will bring him to E-2. I will unvote though if he gets to E-1. I am not comfortable with someone being on E-1 unless town is ready to hammer because it is inherently risky.

VOTE: Frederick A Campbell

I said I would unvote unless town was ready to hammer. I probably should have clarified this further and said

unless town is ready to hammer

or I am more certain that he is scum. The latter has happened for me, the former not so.

[Dionysus]

post 148 by Space
My very first post was a lie intended to make myself suspicious.

Why?

[Dionysus]

Campbell, can you answer my question to you yesterday?

[Dionysus]

Sorry, I'm still here! I personally feel the game has stagnated entirely as we are ready to hammer LL and no one wants to do it.

[Dionysus]

A fascinating pop in! From a player who knows I have o ly just joined the gane to say the game has stagnated the MOMENT I begin to reinvograte the game.

Are you afraid of what happens if I'm not hammered soon?

I think you know that calling this game stagnating when two new active players have come in to reinvigorate it is a lie.

No. The game had stagnated. State your case if you want but I am comfortable with you being eliminated.

[Dionysus]

Let's expand the question too.

Why are you comfortable with an elimination after a stagnated vote when that almosy invariably means that the eliminee is town and that the townies have an unchallenged assumption that is wrong holding them in this status quo?

Because I've been here the whole game and am comfortable that you are scum.

[Dionysus]

Because I feel you are giving me confidence right now. Certainty.

And for someone so certain you have shockingly little to say om the matter besides "let's wrap it up here folks"

Your predecessor was all over the place. Going back and forth on reads like a metronome. When pressed his defence was that he was behaving scummy on purpose because reasons. The way you have jumped in so aggressively swinging for others is giving cornered scum desperately trying to survive the day. It's not fooling me.

[Dionysus]

What you describe does my work for me. It shows an unconfident player flipping his reads trying to solve the game with a very easy profession of reads to see if you read him in ISO.

In other words... A townie.

What would be the scum motivation of flip floppong this much? It would be much better to say... Confidently push for a desth and then reevaluate after the townie dies, no?

Sometimes scum just play badly. It's not that deep. You are playing very well though, I'll give you that.

[Dionysus]

Well that was certainly an aggressive approach to the game

It was welcome tbh! LL has injected some life into this but unfortunately her behaviour has only managed to reinforce my view that she's scum.

[Dionysus]

Well that was certainly an aggressive approach to the game

Aggressive, certainly.

But it's how I play. It's Rise of the Phoenix not Rise of the Lamb.

Aggressive play is my preference too, where have you been? This game before your arrival was far too clinical.

Shame you're scum

[Dionysus]

Hello Fenrir! Please can you give me a read on Fred/LLD slot at your earliest convenience.

Mainly why you avoided answering my question in #68: why me putting CCG at E-2 quickly wasn’t worthy of your suspicion but CCG doing it (potentially accidentally) was? And there was a further point in there about why you are so hesitant to use your vote with any conviction (you’ve continued this with the declaration you’d unvote Frederick if he reached E-1)

P-edit = preview edit: when you edit your post after you initially submit, after seeing new posts which come up in the preview step.

I answered this already in #59. CCG did it off the back of fluff. CCG being at E-2 later on wasn't off the back of fluff. Same for Campbell now.

And I think don't know how else to explain my hesitance beyond what I have said: I don't want scum to hammer a townie. But if you want some clarity I won't be lifting my vote from Campbell unless something big changes as the day progresses.

The consensus is forming that his behaviour is flailing scum, a read I share and I would be comfortable with him being hammered.

So I’ve just isod myself and Dio. On a re-read the only thing that really stands out apart from the other things I’ve already mentioned about Dio before is here in this post.

Reasons for finding Dio suspect:

(1) The inconsistency with people “rushing” eliminations - I think he answered this okay tbh, so I’d retract the reasoning for my initial ping
(2) The self-awareness around his own votes for CCG (NK summed this up well) = conscious of how he is perceived for his votes more than trying to use his vote to effectively scumhunt
(3) Blaming Fred for pushing a CCG narrative combined with the bolded above where he latched onto the “consensus” (= hiding behind others for his reads and suspicions)
(4) Needing prompting to respond to accusations directed at him (= hoping to ignore it so it goes away because he doesn’t have any reasonable, ie “town”, explanations)

@LLD - what makes Dio’s interactions with you worse than NK’s?

Point 3 is nonsense, sorry. I wasn't hiding behind others' reads, what the hell. I had put my vote on Campbell more than 40 posts before this one you've quoted and I haven't moved it since. And for point 2 I have been over this enough. I didn't want a wreckless hammer. Something you agree with per post #176 where you freaked out at CCG putting WS at E-1? What is it? Should I be aware of where players are at in terms of voting or not? Be consistent please.

[Dionysus]

Woah nelly. Seems like my post has touched a nerve.

I’ll break point 3 down into its two constituent parts:

firstly, you said you were convinced to vote for CCG based on Fred pushing a narrative hard, but when I showed you Fred’s post, there was nothing that would fit that description.

As for the Fred vote - it’s the way you phrased it. Why not just say “He appears to me to be flailing scum” rather than there’s a town consensus that you agree with?

Hiding might not be the right word for the Fred vote given you were already voting them - I’ll accept that - but it definitely fits for the CCG one; and there’s a similar vibe (even if not an exact parallel) from the post I quoted.

As for the E-1, they are two totally different scenarios. One was early to mid game where a hammer would make someone obvScum. The CCG vote put someone at E-1

whilst someone else who had not voted for that person was themselves at E-1 with declared intent to hammer

. In this case, scum!fred who thinks they’re going to be eliminated either way takes the pot-shot and eliminates WS before they can claim. If you’re already going to be eliminated, being made obvScum makes no difference. The two scenarios are not comparable and I’m surprised you would try to say that they are.

Are you sincere town who is as wound up as you appear in your post at having to defend the same accusations yet again? Or are you frustrated scum who thought they’d gotten by today after the initial suspicion on you faded?

I have been wrestling between head and heart today (head says stick with LLD elimination; heart says don’t), and this little exchange may just have been the chair to the face while the referee’s back was turned I needed to decide an otherwise even match - having to defend those points has only made me believe in their validity more firmly. I’m willing to see where this goes.

VOTE: Dio

Ok. let's take this point by point. I've (attempted to) colour coordinate. Hope it makes sense lol.

Point one:

Forgive me for misremembering. There was a general narrative early on that this was a scum move by CCG and as it was directed at me, I got caught up with it. I assigned too much of that credit to Campbell simply because he got the ball rolling.

Point two:

If wording is your issue here, please read my ISO and you will see I presented it independently without tying it to a consensus or anyone else in post #102 (which you will also note is earlier than the post you are taking exception to).

Point three:

Ok fair. I'm just frustrated people keep coming back to this when 1) it happened so early in the game and 2) I have already said I have changed my mind on that whole affair after a re-read.

My overall frustration is borne from two things: the first one is that I feel like I am continually having to defend myself against the same points as you have noted. The other is that people are misreading me. I have not been hiding, lurking, deflecting, latching on to others' reads like you* have claimed in this post and others. I have been firm. I think LLD is scum. I think she is scum because Campbell's behaviour was all over the place, changing reads left and right. It was also Campbell who started the ball rolling with the CCG E-1 mess. Campbells defence of this was nonsense. Deliberately acting suspicious in order to... what? Show who *isn't* pointing the finger? That is a level of strategic thinking not fit for someone whose engagement with the game was as low as it was. The way LLD has behaved since she took over has not assuaged my suspicions. She is acting like a scrabbling scum like he was, only this time she is more aggressive and active about it.

*Some of these are yours, but not all. The ones that aren't have come from others!

[Dionysus]

Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Using it as the only reason to continue your scum read against me is a scummy continuation read from a former LHF who you could say practically anything about and be fine, and now it's harder.

As it happens... I'm sorry your easy town elimination suddenly morphed into Me, but.... adapt or perish.

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying in the first sentence so I am not able to respond?

[Dionysus]

Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Using it as the only reason to continue your scum read against me is a scummy continuation read from a former LHF who you could say practically anything about and be fine, and now it's harder.

As it happens... I'm sorry your easy town elimination suddenly morphed into Me, but.... adapt or perish.

Sorry I don't understand what you're saying in the first sentence so I am not able to respond?

Second sentence*

[Dionysus]

You're calling me scrambling to find an elimination that isn't me, but Survivalism is not a scum tell.

Of course I'm being aggressive and seeking scum this rapidly when my neck is on the line and there are less than 2 days remaining in the day.

When players at the beginning of the day told "eh we will just kill your slot anyway" and sought to maintain apathy.

Of course I'm going to make moves to shake up that paradigm and protect myself from dying while killing someone I think is scum.

It's not "Scrambling" or.. Scrabbling? It's survivalism and it's a Non Alignment Indicative trait.

By all means be aggressive. But you haven't been seeking scum. You've been hounding me just because I had a firm read on your predecessor. That's literally what made you target me. If you're town and you manage to get me out today, you're gonna be so embarrassed. It'll be nice to see!

[Dionysus]

I'd like to see Aurorus's response to my earlier post.

[Dionysus]

Guys this is so obvious it actually hurts. Lady is obviously scum. Campbell made a poor attempt from the get go to control the narrative, failed and then struggled to get things back on track. His logic doesn't make sense. At all. Acting suspiciously ON PURPOSE on day 1 of a newbie game to see who does and doesn't jump on the bw just doesn't make any sense. To pull this off you need to be more engaged and focused than he ever was. Occam's razor applies here. The slot is scum, simple as.

One thing I will say - I am not acting suspiciously on purpose. So if you go ahead and eliminate me today then there are 100% scums on my bw. So you know where to start D2.

[Dionysus]

My mind is a mess after trying to catch up, but some things I feel like I'm very certain on:
- AV and Weuler are town.
- Dio's actions/reasonings to Lady felt like a desperate attempt to not change anything, which I find is weird as the reason why we were in a pickle was because we weren't changing our thinking.
I thought I would have more...

I was going to say that there's at least 1 scum between Wayward, Lady, and Dionysus, but Wayward just got replaced so maybe he was just inactive?
Until Save The Dragons does any major reads though, I'm probably gonna stick with 1 of Save, Lady, and Dionysus.
Trying to think if there even is world where all 3 of them are town. Would have to mean that 2 of KT, CCG, or NK 15 are scum with my current readings, which is possible if Fredrick was telling the truth about lying on his ISO post #1. Dionysus's reaction still strikes me as odd from back then though as they had voted then unvoted CCG in quick succession.

Actually, looking back on this entire CCG mistake saga, NK 15 really showed why Dionysus was suspicious at the beginning with his ISO Post 2.
However, around this time, Wayward has shown interest in voting Fredrick, alongside Weuler (on the same page as the linked ISO) so people were focusing more on Fredrick then Dionysus with a wagon, with CCG being the other?
Then when the 9th slot got filled in by KT, they started pushing Wayward (which I agreed with due to the lack of content in his posts at the time), a new wagon was formed completely overshadowing Dionysus again.
I'm not sure where I'm really going with this thought process tbh, but I do find it weird in retrospect that a second wagon was formed on Wayward due to not answering questions vs Dionysus who had done a previously suspicious action was swept under the rug because Fredrick was seen as suspicious.

Since we need a lim today, and I can't think of any good reason to vote for Wayward's slot now that they've been replaced, I VOTE: Dionysus

placing them at E-1.

To follow my earlier post up with a response to this one, particularly your note at the start: we didn't need to change our thinking. Campbell was obvious scum. He wasn't hammered (simply) because he disengaged and became largely inactive and then we have given his replacement time to engage themselves. But this is obvious.

[Dionysus]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

[Dionysus]

Lady, please provide a list of things I have done that you believe makes me scum and I will address each of them. I invite others to do the same. There are some lengthy posts about this in the last few pages but some of them are quite rambly and this would be much simpler if people just cited a list of specific things.

[Dionysus]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

Yes, I agree, this bolded line is absolutely bullshit.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

Interesting that you ignored me but have something to say to NK15 here.

[Dionysus]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

Yes, I agree, this bolded line is absolutely bullshit.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

Interesting that you ignored me but have something to say to NK15 here.

Why do I need to talk to you? At this point I'm fairly convinced you are scum, so what would I be convincing you of?

I'm talking to OTHER people, not you. I don't gain anything from responding directly to you. I will prove your points wrong and sell my points to people I think are town.

What an odd reply...? Nobody needs to respond to anyone, but ignoring someone when they make a very valid point is, uh, scummy. If the situation was reversed you would be all over me for this.

[Dionysus]

hmm. this wagon appeared out of nowhere a couple of pages ago. do people think it's pure?

It appeared because I said I wanted to hammer an obvious scum just as they were replaced with an aggressive (and honestly kind of rude) player who has successfully managed to control the narrative and drive it away from her and on to me.

So no I don't believe it is, but I wouldn't.

[Dionysus]

You can continue to call them obvious scum as much as you like but at every turn I have provided counter argument to your MINIMAL evidence and claims that you have yet to be able to provide a reasonable response to, nor have you been able to tell me why I'm scummy in any reasonable fashion besides saying I'm scrambling which isn't anything at all.

You've been effectively utilizing buzzwords and general "feelings" about things to try and drive things forward but just because you say someone is obvious scum doesn't mean they are.

Frederic was an inexperienced townie who got wrapped up on himself

and I'm here giving town, hunting scum and checking you at every turn.

BIB: sorry, what? Inexperienced townie players do stupid things like claim when they shouldn't, believe obvious lies and make other mistakes due to not fully understanding game mechanics. Inexperienced townie players do not embark on a game of 3d chess where they attempt to act suspiciously on purpose. You're claiming I have provided minimal evidence for my claims - you haven't provided any evidence for this one beyond your word.

Yes, I agree, this bolded line is absolutely bullshit.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

Interesting that you ignored me but have something to say to NK15 here.

Why do I need to talk to you? At this point I'm fairly convinced you are scum, so what would I be convincing you of?

I'm talking to OTHER people, not you. I don't gain anything from responding directly to you. I will prove your points wrong and sell my points to people I think are town.

What an odd reply...? Nobody needs to respond to anyone, but ignoring someone when they make a very valid point is, uh, scummy. If the situation was reversed you would be all over me for this.

Your point ISN'T valid... and you're scum, so anything you say is intended to kill me... which you're trying to do.

My point IS valid. Your characterisation of his behaviour is nonsensical. Inexperienced players don't make moves like that. You know this.

Oh hey there NK 15, tell me, is Dio scum for you?

Cause Dio's on L-1, so, today would be the day to prove you genuinely have that read and it's not just something you're saying for the sake of saying it.

I'm not willing to lim Dio if the alternative is you.
It doesn't make sense. Why should I lim an unclaimed suspect when I have a claimed suspect? Especially when that claimed suspect is trying to get the unclaimed suspect to Intent?
So... you haven't addressed that obvious BS on Campbell yet. Why did you write that?

Because it's true? Just from reading his posts he clearly had 0 concept what he was doing and 0 direction or intent with it despite trying to solve the game desperately.

This is a very weak defence.

[Dionysus]

i mean it just means i'm in a pickle

pedit: are you crucifying LLD for not knowing Fredrick was SE? what am i looking at?

They're hopping on my use of the word inexperienced to describe how Frederic played like he didn't know what the fuck he was doing. Which I think is a pretty fair description? To be honest?

It's.... it's ridiculous.

He didn't know what he was doing because playing as scum is difficult and he crumbled. It happens.

[Dionysus]

Lady, please provide a list of things I have done that you believe makes me scum and I will address each of them. I invite others to do the same. There are some lengthy posts about this in the last few pages but some of them are quite rambly and this would be much simpler if people just cited a list of specific things.

LLB also ignored this request. Probably because she's scum and doesn't want to give me a townie the opportunity to potentially save themselves. She also pretty much stated her intention to flat out ignore me in #310. How is this helpful?

[Dionysus]

What gets me most, STD, is I kind of doubt both NK15 and Dio can be scum here together anymore because if they are they're literally losing when I flip town. They both die back to back after that, so...

Oh, nevermind. That's not coming from scum at this point like... ever.

INTENT TO HAMMER DIO

Can you explain this? I don't understand the sudden shift in suspicion.

[Dionysus]

There’s a lot here and I only have access on my phone so I’m not going to go through quoting all the relevant posts, and I’ll respond to what I think is most pertinent in the interest of time.

@Dio, your blue point signposting me to I think post 102 was fair enough, and I retract the accusation around the wording of consensus. You hadn’t said flailing before but the wording of that original post could definitely be construed to mean flailing. However, I don’t think you’ve responded particularly well to the pressure of the suspicions, vote or wagon. Every time I’m willing to give you some towncred for a defence of things you’ve said, you do something else to make me doubt you again. The closest example to mind is how you said something about LLD being embarrassed if she were town and how you’d like to see it - that really didn’t sit well for me.

@LLD, you are still maintaining that there are no clear explanations for Fred scumreads but I pointed out four reasons in a post you seem to have ignored. I don’t expect you to “know” why Fred did what he did but I think it’s wrong to suggest that he didn’t act suspiciously in a number of different ways. I also think you’re missing the fact that KT is playing like they know you’re town - which from your possible “town” pov would be fine and dandy but from an outside view, it looks a little dodgy. I actually think the way you read KT is a point in your favour for being town though.

@STD, I said it because CCG said they were catching up, a lot had happened since their last post, and they took the time to post “same” rather than like anything of any meaningful content, which with the time crunch we’re in seemed off to me. My post was like what, 9 hours after they said they were catching up, and there was still nothing posted. I didn’t/won’t pursue that angle any further though because after stepping away from the thread and the pressure of the deadline countdown, I realised that (obviously) real life can get in the way. Sorry @CCG for pushing you on that front actually.

With intent to hammer declared, Dio should give a claim and final reads.

Ok fine. Well done to LLD for getting a townie to claim - unfortunately for her it is not a power role I am a

Vanilla Townie

.

As for reads, I'll rundown everyone in this post (in order of scummiest to least scummy):

HEAVY SCUMREAD

LLD - no one will be surprised to learn this. Campbell's behaviour which doesn't need reiterated, his poor defence and latterly LLD's dodging of questions from me, NK15 and it appears from my quoted post Aurorus.

LIGHT SCUMREAD

STD - This is mostly from WS's behaviour. Present but not really saying much, suggesting reads are forthcoming but never materialising. I tended to agree with KT's suspicions of WS and his reasons. Since STD has taken over I haven't seen anything to make him more of a townread. I also think his reads are a bit odd - me, LLD and KT all in green. There's no way one of LLD and KT aren't scum. He's also pushing weuler who is someone I think townreads reasonably well.
KingTroll - his defence of Campbell doesn't sit right with me. If I'm wrong about LLD then I would move KT into the heavy scumread category. He defended Campbell when at the time there was no rational argument to and he bought into the bizarre excuse Campbell offered up. Post #128 where he said both scum aren't on Campbell is an odd thing to say imo. Doesn't sit right with me.
CCG - Also in a world where LLD is town, maybe the finger pointing at the start by Campbell was legitimate. I don't think with hindsight CCG deliberately put me at E-1 and said E-2 with the hope of a careless townie coming along and hammering, but I do think he latched onto some nonsensical reason to suspect me (as policy I don't engage with unserious votes; if we're going to have fluffy chat in the beginning I'd rather just shoot the breeze than post or reply to troll votes). When the wagon died down on me he jumped to WS and lo and behold he's right back on me now that the pressure is back on. This is not a strong scumread by any stretch. He also hasn't contributed a huge amount. He gets towncred for his huge posts though.

NEUTRAL

Space - no strong read either way. Might re-read their ISO assuming I don't get hammered.

TOWNREAD

Weuler - I disagree with the scumread on him in the last few pages. The posts STD has picked feel cherry-picked to paint a narrative of his participation which is not accurate at all.
Space

STRONG TOWNREAD

NK15 - He reads as confident town to me. Is legitimately interested in challenging players for information (see: latest exchange with LLD)
Aurorus - Definitely the strongest town read of the game for me

POSSSIBLE SCUM PAIRS: LLD/KT, LLD/STD, CCG/KT

[Dionysus]

Counterpoint: if LLD flips town I am locktown. if LLD flips wolf I am locktown. Hope this helps!

Nice try, but nope!

[Dionysus]

It's time to hammer

Or let's give people a chance to read my post and digest before hammering.

[Dionysus]

They'll have time to digest overnight. Unless you have anything else to say?

Just that KT's post off the back of mine saying he is locktown regardless of which way you flip pings me. Aggressively trying to clear yourself and push that narrative off the back of less-than-concrete information is scum behaviour.

inb4 you reply "NO It IsN'T"

[Dionysus]

We have 22 hours or so I think people should comment on it and have a chance to read!

Thank you.

And with that I'm going to bed. Hopefully I haven't been hammered in the night, but if I have been then at least I'm not a town power role. And the town will have some info. And just in case I don't get the chance: good luck to the town. Don't let me die in vain!

[Dionysus]

you didn't actually explain why you townread weuler

I actually just noticed I accidentally listed Space twice - once under neutral (where he should have been) and again under light townread (a copying error). Sorry about that.

Re: Weuler - I don't see anything scummy at all. I think the way you presented your post was a misrepresentation. He reads as a confident townie to me trying to hunt some scum.

[Dionysus]

I am simply tired of people scumreading my confidence in having correctly read Campbell and confbiasing it that I'm wolf either way LLD's slot flips! If you want to set up two town flips in a row, it's your prerogative to say that if LLD flips town I'm mafia, but I'm afraid I'll just be right in that scenario!

How do you think I feel?

And with that I'm actually going to bed. Night!

[Dionysus]

Welp

[Dionysus]

Well done to the scumpair tho. I stopped following as closely after I died but I don't think I ever really suspected AV!