Newbie 748 - OhGodMyHamlet - GAME OVER

[Amished]

Thanks! Just a warning, I might be somewhat gone on Sunday (Easter) but I'll start my read now! Better watch out scum, I'm coming for you.

[Amished]

So much for thinking it was *just* a 20 page game..... Still wading through some of the posts, though hopefully I got through most of them. Finished page 13 for my reference, and letting everyone know I'm slowly catching up.

[Amished]

I'm scared about 19... It didn't take me long to get to 18, but I've been working on that page off and on since noon (7 hours). I'll try to keep getting caught up til then, but from what I've seen so far I'm happily surprised that you all didn't lynch Data on day1. Surprised cause I probably would've voted for him just out of pure frustration, happy that you didn't and I can come in and hopefully salvage his role and help out a bit.

[Amished]

Okay, initial thoughts.

Long posts suck, but they do give plenty to analyze overall.

Secondary thoughts.. >_>

I'll address Ald/Mastin first as I view them to be the biggest contributors and the best posters as well. While I find each to have some valid points, I tend to favor Ald's point of view moreso than Mastins.

Some of the things that particularly stand out to me are diz's concern over 1 vote. Like even Sens said almost immediately into the game, townies shouldn't be *worried* about being the lynch, but should try to strive to make themselves appear pro-town and find scum. Especially on D1 this would ring true, as the town has 2 mislynches to play with, and still not necessarily lose.

I also side with Ald about the role-fishing that's going on, but partially. While I didn't pick up on any fishing by Ald, I viewed Mastin's posts to be more of a hinting to the scum at who he thought was a power-role thereby trying to get them NK'd instead of himself. Not the most townie of intentions, which bumps him below Ald in my view of town players.

In this case, I also agree with Ald in thinking the hammer was scummy. I don't always believe that's the case, but when even *one* person asks to wait for a roleclaim and it's not honored, that is beyond scummy in my eyes. (We had Ald for sure asking for one (roleclaim), and Sens I believe only didn't want a RC as he didn't feel that Josh should've been the lynch for the day. I think Sens was actually close in opinion as to what ... JoeCool's? stance is or was recently. While thinking Josh could be scum, I believe Sens wanted to explore Peace as being scummy before possibly mislynching (which ended up happening)). In this case in particular, since Peace viewed Josh and Joe to be scumbuddies (pairing without a confirmed scum is also rather weak in my opinion, but that's neither here nor there) then Ald's request to wait with the hammer comes from a townie source. Why wouldn't you (scum or town) honor a request from somebody you don't suspect as being scum?

However, I thought Mastin's point against manho singling Mast out of the 3 scummy people was a valid thought. Yes, I can see how him basically being himself with his posts can influence people, we also have a counterpoint that does the same thing to give a view, lessening one person's huge's posts influence. Also, I feel that Mastin and Ald are the two people that are keeping the game going by posting as much as they do, and by going after one of them, it'd eventually make it easier to lurk by lessening chances for a town win. Also, if you do think one person is especially scummy for defending another player, wouldn't you want to try to find out the role of the defendee? If you think they're defending a scum partner, that indicates to me that the person needs defending and they want to keep them around so that they can potentially mislynch today, and still have both of their team around tomorrow; instead of having them act separately, then have the weaker one get picked off a bit more easily and leads to a tougher situation for the loner trying to blend in to everyone for two more days?

Also, since this seemed to be a point of contention between the two as well, I don't really see the scumtell in waiting (at the start), I agree with Ald about it being a nulltell, while I agree with Mastin about Diz wanting to prod the lurkers. If you're excited to play the game, having a lurker not do anything is really frustrating, and one of the only policies I support regarding lynches.

Oddly enough (just a random tidbit about my playstyle), I've also had the fact that I refuse to use FoS's be considered scummy in a previous game. I personally view them to be a wishy-washy way of stating suspicions, so I don't use them ever. Obviously I'm in a vast minority, but you won't see any out of me, and I view others using them to be a null-tell as everyone does seem to use them regardless of role.

One final thing that I wanted to point out about even just this game in particular, regarding the meta on replacees. So far, including me, we've had 5 people replace in. Even if from an outsiders perspective 2 of them were scum that wanted replacing, a majority of the replacements came in as town. That also reminded me, particularly of Mastin's meta on Data, I can see forming a pattern of SensFan, just due to the sheer amount of games that he's played that he's settled into a pattern that he likes. Personally I've had 3 games finish, 2 more than I've been NK'd in, and I'm still trying to find a playstyle that suits me. Regardless of the role I have, I doubt that there's much of a pattern to anything I do yet. Get back to me in a year or two if I stick around and then I might have a reliable pattern, but metagaming newbies, especially if you don't have a specific meta on them being *any* anti-town role just seems ridiculous. I can seem some of the other things that he's said and his actions being thought of as anti-town as I do feel his playstyle was absolute crap, but trying to bury him on meta in his point of his mafia career seems like quite a stretch.

My view on both of them (Ald and Mastin): While I tend to agree more with Ald (and therefore think he is pro-town), both bring up many valid points (that frankly, I refuse to post exactly just in the hopes of keeping this game under 1,000,000 words) concerning the game, and do think that both of them are town-aligned. If they aren't, they sure are giving the rest of us a lot to be able to refute and poke holes in if we take the time to do so.

This obviously narrows down my suspects divided between Peace, Ias(serplat), Manho, and JoeCool. As most of my time has been spent going through Ald's and Mastin's posting, particularly the singling out of Mastin by manho, and the hammer and Peacesells now trying to continue justifying it by bringing SensFans posts up are my two highest suspects, though I do need to take more time and reread all the other members of the town to have a good view on them, at least moreso than what I feel right now.

[Amished]

Mod: Datadanne is now me (Amished)

Votecount fixed. -OGML

[Amished]

I'll pull the quotes directed towards me out and go through them for you so you know exactly what I'm referring to later on. First though I want to ask a couple questions that I didn't bring up before. (All directed at Mastin, btw.)

General question: Why were you deciding to spectate this game?

Second: You and Ald are of greatly conflicting stances on what Josh's "claim" would've been at the end of D1. It seems to me that you're going on the basis that there's no doubt in your mind that Josh would have claimed a power role. Even going back to Ald's first non /confirm post, "rule" #5 seems to be right on the dot here. While it's obvious that you thought he was scum for a while (judging by the length of time that you had your vote on him primarily without making me stay up another 5 hours reading your posts) it's clear that he wasn't.

What makes you think that Josh (as Town like we know) would've claimed anything but VTownie? Do you really think he would've lead the town that far astray by claiming something he wasn't? In the event that he did claim a power role, it would've been disastrous, I completely agree with you there, but I didn't think he would've been that short-sighted to actually claim anything but VT. Going by the fact that I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't have claimed a power role, the discussion was unnecessarily cut short which I view to be scummy.

As to your point about waiting til at least three people asking for something to actually do so, I wonder about this as well. Sure, the one person that I require could be scum, but if they do bring up a pro-town suggestion (as they are apt to do since they are trying to look pro-town) why not honor it? If you're town, you need 3 people to ask to honor it (at this point of the game) you're essentially either having mafia say something protown (same situation as I have) or making all but 1 of the rest of the town ask for it. It just seems like too large of a hurdle to regularly come up for someone to really come to that conclusion.

For your four points about the power role crumbing/pointing out, without knowing the scum intentions/thoughts, 50% of your theories give information to the scum that they didn't have before (one of which you give weight to), the fourth is having peace be scum too, giving him a defense. In all cases *but* #1, the scum are potentially gaining an advantage. How is that pro-town, or even reasonable for you to bring up in the first place? If peace was honestly bread-crumbing, he could've brought it up later if he felt it necessary to claim; but if it was accidental/not actually bread-crumbing, you've allowed peace (as scum) a wide open door to walk through perhaps riding it through til the end and potentially winning. If somebody is crumbing, let them bring it up, and force them to crumb from now on to not give their role away through meta.

Welcome, someone I think is a devil (mafia); you should be perfectly fine here in our little underworld that outsiders call Newbie 748.

...

“I am happy that you didn’t lynch Data-scum, so that I could live to the endgame.”<--What I interpret it as.

...

“I would have lynched myself, knowing I’m scum.”<--See the pattern I’m seeing? Sure, this might be a little, well, tunneling, but that’s how I’m reading these sentences.

...

“Hope that I can prevent myself from being lynched so that the scum team can win.”<--Yup, you guessed it. My interpretation, right there.

...

Of course you don’t think I’m as town as Aldusk—I’m attacking you, and you want to gain the favor of the person who is actively contributing who is *not* attacking you.

...

In the case of asking for something (in this case, not hammering), It’d take three for me to make sure scum aren’t misleading me—a policy I encourage others to follow.

...

1: There’s far more to the case than meta.
2: The meta I have suggests that he is not town—and that’s all I have to go on.
3: You admitted that your predecessor was scummy. Honesty’s good and all, but this easily could be an attempt to get on my good side, as I have clearly stated my opinion on honesty.

...

Oh, please, feel free to post them. That way, we can get over 400 pages in Microsoft Word and publish this game as a novel.

... uhh thanks? If the outsiders were smart, they wouldn't refer to it at all.

- I'm happy that you didn't lynch Data-town as it'd be a mislynch. Either doing this day1 giving the same situation (without me, but with Josh), or day2 giving a lylo situation. Furthermore, no matter my role, I don't have enough faith in my abilities to either avoid a lynch or a NK yet to really say that I'd live to any certain point.

- Data played terribly, was annoying to me in every single one of his posts, and I would've voted to mislynch him for sure at least at some point while he was here if I was anybody else playing with him. I would've had to bear some responsibility for the mislynch, but in my eyes it would've been acceptable as somebody that was so distracting and unhelpful to me to actually play the game and scumhunt properly.

- Again, if I were scum, I definitely don't have the confidence in myself to think anything of the sort. As town, I hope to help, but as I've voted for townies before (who hasn't) I can't be sure of even my ability to help. I surely hope I can and hopefully I can bring up some good points to discuss, but so far to me pure desire leads more to tunneling on townies just as much if not moreso than on scum.

- At that point you had nothing to do with the literal "me", you were attacking my predecessor who I would've questioned heavily as well. Utterly false and a huge mis-rep of my thoughts. I happen to agree with many more of his points than yours (disregarding his/your thoughts on my completely). Saying that I can view his side better and think more of his points are correct than yours = me thinking he's more pro-town. In fact, I try to look for people that don't look at me, just because then it's not as obvious that they're looking at everyone as a possible suspect.

- See before the quote.

- I realize that, but a lot of what you post is about meta. From my understanding the "meta" that you do have is on about a 3 page game of him being town. If you have more, please, enlighten us all, but don't expect me (even if it wasn't about my role) to be that convinced about what I view a decent chunk of your argument is over 3 pages where he still got lynched, and quite possibly was his first game. Like I said again, and bears repeating, even in my .. 6th? game of ongoing, killed or ended, I'm still finding my style.

Clearly I've always just admired you and wanted to get on your good side! Everything I did was just for you, my hero. [/sarcasm] Come off it. I don't want to get on anyone's "good side" by sucking up to them. I would much rather prefer to be convincing and logical in my arguments so that while not being buddy-buddy, I'll have the rest of the town view me as an ally. Keep in mind that I'd want this no matter my role; townie because that's what I am, scum cause that's what I'm trying to be. Neither of those cases involve sucking up to anybody.

I understand taking heat for the person you replaced, but to have everything I say be instantly twisted (not even misunderstood) towards being scum is concerning to say the least.

Finally, @ Iasaiki: I'm glad to see that it appears that you're at least keeping an open mind about me while still being suspicious, as apparently not all of us are capable of that. If you want to ask questions of me, feel free.

What about Manho do you feel is good scumhunting? So far (especially lately) it appears like he was trying to clarify a confirmed (dead) townie with Peace. What else caught your attention?

[Amished]

Oooh, stalker. Got it. Ald living up to your expectations? I wasn't asking a loaded question, it just seemed odd to read games that you're not in, and without the ald/OGML connection, a game that seemed picked at random.

Yes, he could've, or he could've also claimed a VT, which he was. You're assuming the worst while I'm assuming truth from a VT that really had nothing to hide. Without letting him have a chance at it, you're right we can never know, but I personally would've liked to see what would've happened.

While too long of a day 1 can just get on everyone's nerves, I guess it's just my opinion that it requires 20+ pages of posting (obviously depending on the circumstances, people being replaced, needing prods would shorten, while everyone active would lengthen the # for me) for me to even start to think that there's enough discussion.

Ahh, but I qualify it that it's a pro-town suggestion. Scum and Town alike can offer those. Scum giving a pro-town suggestion benefits them by making them look more townie, but also benefits the town by having an actually good suggestion. Asking for more time isn't that counter-productive to the general scum goal of shorter days, while making them appear more townie. Yes, the person asking, and the request all affect this, but in this case it was just asking for more time, and from Ald, who is right at the top of everyone's pro-town list it seems. From a general sense to this particular case, waiting seems like the logical option, and the best option overall.

I took "myself" out of it in the figures because "I'm" asking for other people's opinions/requests. 6 *other* people alive, 2 are scum. 2 scum+1 townie suggest something (where they're still trying to manipulate you) at one end, or 3 townies out of the remaining 4 (vast majority) on the other end. Yes it can be 1 scum/2 townies, but even still that's half the remaining town, all from a townie's standpoint.

Oh yes, I really do hate loaded questions.

About the whole points thing, I'm thinking you'll have to clarify a couple things for me as I don't think I'm still seeing the whole reasoning of yours. Yes, you could (and so far have) defended peacesells, but why couldn't he defend himself? Right now he's trying to do exactly that by going through his thoughts at the hammer.

Concerning 2, would it really be that suicidal for scum? If they really think that Peace is a power role, they'll know if it's safe/unsafe to target that person depending on the setup, giving them an easier time overall. It seems as likely as leaving a suspected power role alive regardless of their scumminess to me at least. Going through the possible setups, if it's a RB/Goon, thinking that there's a town power role gives them knowledge as to exactly what setup it is, while with the goon/goon "peace-PR" is the only one, wiping out a major weapon for the town. I just think that you're not giving that option as much thought just based on your own playstyle, while I think objectively it's not as unlikely as you think. Especially if peace/you convince us that they're more townie than somebody else, they'll be less likely to be a lynch target for tomorrow too.

Regarding some of your hypotheticals: I always want to see more information from people to help me understand their playstyle. While I think Peace is deserving of pressure for what I view to be a scummy action, I also want him to stay alive so that he can defend himself and I can judge that as well. If Peace were to be NK'd, it'd also depend on the lynch. Do we get scum? Do we get town? Who was it? Without those, there's no possible way any of us could really answer your question without spiraling into massive back and forth speculation that would help nobody *but* the scum because it'd be so distracting.

Again, if he can defend himself properly, I don't want him lynched as he would've convinced me he's town. As it's a newbie game, if he defends himself and turns out to be scum, he did well and it's a learning experience for me. If he defends himself and is town, great, we're both on the right track. If he doesn't defend himself and is town, then it's a learning experience for him. Correct, if he doesn't defend himself, he can be attacked for anything. As is, he is attempting to defend himself in a roundabout way, and is good for him to help his own case. As he and you are defending him, this point is irrelevent ("Besides my defense, and Peace's weaker defense, there's nothing that Peace can't be attacked for successfully. " -Mastin)

Points taken for the other ones. I will admit I do think through certain circumstances more than others, especially ones that people don't give credit to. It appears that the major hangup is that I thought 2 overall was more likely than you're thinking it is.

What I was trying to say about the outsiders not referring to it is that if some of your posts truly are 15-30 pages in MSWord, and it's still a 21 page game (with Ald, and now me adding to it) it'll be a full day read if they devote all their time to it just to get to part of the way through Day2. Who knows how much longer this will be? If they do want to be "newbie slayed" or have their "mind atrophy" sure, refer back to this game. .......

And we have your word that I'm scum. Obviously I'm trying to change that perception for the whole town, but we'll see how well that works out.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't "fear" a lynch, but I don't exactly enjoy it. I rank it right up there with a NK. It sucks as the time spent in that game will affect that game in a way that I have no input into from then on, and I have to rely on others to find the scum. I also have to start a new game (so far I find it hard to make it through the RVS with something substantial) or replace in trying to get a read on everyone, defending myself if necessary, finding scum with the amount of content posted, which can take up many hours ending up with 1 post to show for my efforts.

Like you're the only one that wants honesty. I'm honest because the town deserves it, and I have nothing to hide. It's certainly not just for one person who I don't know the alignment of.

Yea, well, you started it. If somebody gives me a lot of content to analyze and/or directed at me, I spend time replying. I doubt any of my posts break the 5page mark if copied into a word document so I'm still way behind you and Ald. "Best of the rest" if you will.

@Ald, sorry you lost the post, shouldn't take too long to get one back up I hope.

@Manho: Why not just put in what you have in parenthesis right into your line? You're obviously concerned about somebody jumping on your wording. All you said was

data(amished) is still my another suspect.

and having me be a suspect is far from saying "amished is scum. lynch the lying sack of crap."

@Peace: Thanks for the clarification. I must've missed where the question was posed at you if so if it seemed to you that I was being hard on you, I apologize.

Grrr, dammit Mastin, making me spend about 2 hours on this post. I wanted to go to bed a lot earlier.

[Amished]

20+ pages of posting (obviously depending on the circumstances, people being replaced, needing prods would shorten, while everyone active would lengthen the # for me)

Yes, I agree.... I was talking about the general sense that's around my "cut-off". In this particular case I think we could've had more discussion since people were reasonably active, and therefore can get content out of them if they don't volunteer as much as we'd all like.

[Amished]

Mod/Town: I am visiting some friends this weekend so I'll be V/LA from tomorrow (Friday) to sometime Sunday

I should be able to be back and checking this Sunday night so hopefully I'll get a post in then, otherwise I can basically guarantee I'll have something on Monday.

[Amished]

I can only do a very short post this time kinda heading out the door.

First off, the last part of Ald's post should be quoted here for truth. It's just a game, calm down, maybe adjust your playstyle so you're not hurting yourself or messing with real life! Christ man, we'll live if you only catch the high points of an argument.

Secondly, the obviously out of context quotes and constant saying I'm lying no matter what is really starting to get on my nerves. I'll be back to address them more completely in a couple days, but if you're grasping at that obviously thin of straws, you're not as good a mafia player as I thought, and seems like something a desperate scum would do. I'm trying to stay objective and not be all OMGUS, but you're making it mighty tough from my end.

Third I'm sure mastin was implying that me saying... lemme get the quote here..

And we have your word that I'm scum.

by trying to prove that he has inside knowledge of some sort, rather than my attempt at heaping scorn on how your word is so much more powerful than mine to *anybody* other than yourself.

Finally, regarding replacing. I've replaced into 3 finished games so far. In those I've replaced in and a Doc, a VT, and a Goon. From pure personal experience, it's a null to town tell. From this game, assuming the worst, 2/5 of the replacees are scum, 3/5ths are town in that case. Still a null to town tell. As I don't know alignments, it could be that all of the replacements are town, but there's no way to make it scummier than 40% in this game alone. I think it's just as likely that people think VT's are boring and they can't do anything and can never be sure than it is for people to think that scum is exciting yet too hard for them to really feel comfortable with it. In my eyes? Null to slightly-town tell.

[Amished]

Hey Xtoxm! Glad you weren't scared off by CC lurking, etc.. in that game. That wasn't fun watching it for the last week, I thought it would've finished long before that.

Anyways, going to Mastin's posts towards me that I couldn't address earlier; not sure if I'll quote them or just put my responses. Depends on the quote. (Starting with 522 on the last page)

- So you're agreeing with me. I also view myself as more helpful to to the down than Data, and that lynching a non-PR townie isn't a *terrible* situation D1, and that Data's actions would've been construed as scummy before I knew his role.

- How is bringing up good points to discuss, and having everyone see where I'm coming from distracting to the town? Good points inherently have weight behind them that everyone should be able to see where I'm coming from and allow them to have an opinion on it. The more opinions and viewpoints out there, the easier it is for everyone to find scum (imo), and/or find more inconsistancies to question. I still don't see how bringing up *good points* is bad/distracting.

- As long as there's replacees out there, there will be people needing to defend their predecessors actions. Out of 3 finished games that I replaced into, 2 of them I was town and defended myself successfully. 1 I was scum and defended myself. 2/3rds of my finished game experiences say I'm town. Sorry that my personal experiences with mafia are different than yours, but obviously since your experiences always carry more weight I'll just give up.... *shakes head no*

- For the parenthesis part, I meant "me" instead of "my". What I was trying to say is that I looked at your arguments towards other people so that I'd be less biased, and I didn't factor in your or Ald's arguments for or against me/Data to get a feel on how you both view the rest of the town and how I feel about those outlooks.

- How in the hell was I supposed to know that I can't gain your favor at all? You've even said at the end of one of your posts that my honesty wavered your unflinching view of me being scum. Please, tell me where I should've picked up that there was no way you'd ever believe that I'm anything but scum. Besides, why should I believe that you don't change your opinions throughout the game? Most logical people I see view their options and opinions as open to change as they realize that they can't always be right. (BTW, I'm sure that there will be some out of context things in this paragraph that Mastin brings up saying that I'm still scummy...)

- And you need those loops to even reach that conclusion. I view his points to have more weight than yours, I also see where he's coming from more. People I agree with regarding other players, and people I think I understand I'm more likely to see as town. I put my thoughts out there, they line up with his sometimes. I'm not his lap-dog just panting out whatever he says as my own opinion, we just have a similar viewpoint on some circumstances. I'm not trying to gain favor by saying my opinions, I'm trying to find scum. You making loops to say that having similar viewpoints = buddying/currying favor is just trying to twist my playstyle into something that you can put out there as scummy.

- Because I view your meta of Data as a majorly weak point that deserves to have holes blown into it. I've had several different attitudes so far in my past games, and have only been scum once. If every time somebody played different among their first games they were scum, we'd have a hell of a time finding real scum as people are trying to find themselves properly (or at least I am.) I sure as hell can't read Data's mind or what he was thinking, I just know what his role is, and how I feel about what I need to do to help find scum.

- How is him living longer this game indicative of his role? I believe you said that it was a lot of townies on his wagon last time (game), who didn't know his role. We still have townies here that don't know his/my role, so I view the situation as better townies here that aren't stupid enough to lynch somebody after 3 FREAKING DAYS. How can you possibly call that good town play on anybody's part?

- It's not a possibility, but sure, run with it. I have faith that the people here will see that it's a weak "option" as to my motivations, and see that you're just blowing hot air about it. Mostly cause it's not a "bad play as scum" it's how I play.

Here's the OOC quotes, I'll quote my original text, and then bold what he took out of it. (Ald did this partially as well, but I want it here so you can see how absolutely ridiculous the out of context pulling was.)

Clearly I've always just admired you and wanted to get on your good side! Everything I did was just for you, my hero. [/sarcasm] Come off it. I don't want to get on anyone's "good side" by sucking up to them. I would much rather prefer to be convincing and logical in my arguments so that while not being buddy-buddy,

I'll have the rest of the town view me as an ally

. Keep in mind that I'd want this no matter my role; townie because that's what I am,

scum cause that's what I'm trying to be

. Neither of those cases involve sucking up to anybody.

Allies can still be townies, and I'd prefer that they view me as town-oriented. This is still what'd I'd say no matter my alignment, cause it's true. As town, then the rest of the town isn't viewing me as scum (which I wouldn't be) and we have a better chance of finding true scum; as scum, then I'm low on the suspicion list leading to an easier win for me. It's obviously up to you all to figure which it is, but I hope you come to the right conclusion.

I listed both possibilities as to my alignment chief. I love how you single out that "i'm scum" one while disregarding the "I'm townie" one. You're obviously failing at being productive and helping the town by taking comments way out of context, forcing them to go back, and see that you're full of crap. If you're town, I officially dub you VI, and if you're scum, you're not doing a good job of building believable cases either.

- "The mobs anger" eh? Looks like it's just you really questioning me. Manho, while saying he'd vote for me doesn't seem to put forth much arguments to back up his opinion, therefore isn't putting any heat on me. I think I can withstand your weak arguments without any heat suit.

I don't understand what you mean by

What about Manho do you feel is good scumhunting? So far (especially lately) it appears like he was trying to clarify a confirmed (dead) townie with Peace. What else caught your attention?

However, THIS, I *can* quote from you, and still say it’s for truth. Mind answering, Lasai?

You didn't answer my question, and ask Lasai to answer for you. What makes you think that Manho is good scumhunting. He's saying who are his top suspects, but not really asking questions.

Moving down the post a bit:

1) Pro-town suggestions from somebody you don't know the alignment of I feel is more likely to come from a townie than from scum. In that case, then the suggestion will help the town almost exclusively, harming the scum.

2) Yes, in many stages of the game, it does favor town. You agree with my logic, but come to a different conclusion. I feel that waiting for a claim or an attempt at defense is an entirely pro-town suggestion, and should've been honored. At that point, I still fail to see how it helps scum even 1/100th of how much it had the potential to help scum.

Ok, say we do mislynch, they shoot peace. The town still *has to have* the 50/50 chance of hitting scum all fall on the same person, or have 2/3rds of town still have the same 50/50 chance and have their scum buddy bus them. It can be done, but to think so is the more optimistic point of view from town, and the pessimistic view from the POV of a scum. It's still disregarding the potential that Peace is a PR. If he would be shot as PR, then it still benefits them as the scum will have less to worry about from either a successful protect or from a successful investigation if they don't have a RB. This is still becoming muddled, as there's so many permutations that we can't know. I'm just going to drop this point from here on out, but I still feel you underestimated your #2 out of 4 points.

- Cite experience, nobody is saying that your past experience will be right in this case, you're remembering everything correctly/citing the instances correctly, or that we have different experiences that will lead us to believe differently.

I'm heading out to supper with my mom for her BDay, I'll be back later to finish this off.

[Amished]

Finishing up, for my sanity, xtoxm's, and the rest of the town I'll definitely try to keep things shorter.

(moving on to 529)

Ald was commenting on some of your points because I believe he thought that they were as bad as I think that they are.

I responded negatively because I'm not buddying with you. I never was, never will.

I also don't see you (Mastin) pulling half to third of a sentence out trying to prove that anyone else is scum. You're full of crap if you think you can back that up.

Yes, I've claimed to have finished 3 games, 2 that I've been NK'd in, 2 that I'm currently in. I've never said that I was all that experienced. I'm doing my best, but nothing to suggest that I'm a professional or anything.

Oh I definitely agree with Iasaiki here, you give rhetorical questions and such to try to answer without actually giving a solid one so you can backtrack if somebody jumps on you for an "answer".

Couple more things that bugged me about Mastin's last post on page 21.

Even with your "trying to be scum", scum don't try to be scum, they try to be townies. Townies don't even try to be scum, so your "logic" fails no matter what.

As to you trying to quote Sensfan, I believe he also said something like pro-town players should convince everybody else through their play. I'm trying to play, you're just going off on your own making me try to account for somebody else's (weak) meta, OOContext quoting, tunneling, and twisting my words. With the deadline, I'm buying Peace's explanation more than buying you as being a townie role. BTW, I also think you're relying on your "experience" a bit too much, just cause you're bringing up specific examples from other games. So far, I don't see anybody in those games in here, and nobody plays exactly the same so a lot of what you try to bring up I immediately dismiss too.

Vote: Mastin

@Manho: Why are you trying to be fair with your vote? Me voting for Mastin could possibly be construed as being unfair to the rest of everyone I've even thought could be scummy. Just vote for who you think is scummiest, or if you don't want the consequences (preemptive hammer or you don't think they deserve and L-1, FoS or something if you'd prefer.)

@Rest of town regarding xtoxm: He's the only one here that I've played with, and in that game he had *generally* short answers and from what I remember he played a lot by "feel". It was Newbie 694 if you care (it was a 45 page game, but probably already shorter than this one), so my only "meta" on him has him relatively consistent to my sole experience as him as a town.

@xtoxm: What about Ald do you feel is more scummy than Mastin? Obviously I'm getting kind of an opposite feel, just wondering what you caught.

[Amished]

... You admit to taking things out of context, specifically regarding me. How do you really expect me to react? Random example:

If anybody challenges me to a game of ping pong, I'll murder them because I'm so good.

I'll murder them

You said you're going to murder somebody! I'll turn you into the police!

Work there? No. Work here? No. Well, at least I hope not.

@Ald: The pulling part sentences is me against attacking him for his out of context quoting. I don't recollect him really doing what he's doing to me to any extent throughout the rest of the game until now. (BTW: not a BS point..)

@Mastin: I realize you're in the game. I can be pretty damn sure that I don't play exactly the same way as anybody you've cited examples from so therefore your citations trying to skew me as scum don't hold a lot of weight with me for that reason and an obvious other reason.

Which points do you have a problem with finding? I told you which post it's from and I generally go through it in order. My last post I jumped around a bit, but it won't take me long at all to find what I need.

- Ah, right I did direct that question at lasai. However, once isn't exactly "often" ...

- I was referring specifically to this game with your OOContext quoting. If that's the way you play, I haven't gotten that feel up until now. Ald only just caught it now as well. What made you wait so long if it's your "playstyle"?

- Correct, meta can be a good tool. However, we're not talking about some general overall meta argument, we're talking about you taking "meta" from somebody who played scummily enough to get lynched in three days, and applying that to somebody who lived long enough to feel the need to be replaced over a month + a week later. I really really really want to know how these correlate with each other. Specifically how you tried to imply that he didn't get lynched in this game because of his role.

He got that quickly lynched and was acting more town than what he had been doing this game. It truly SHOCKS me that he, when more scummy in THIS game, has still managed to live so long.

Also, why so focused solely on Data's meta? Scared that you could be wrong if you look at my meta? Perhaps you'll realize that I'm telling the truth in trying to figure out my own way of playing yet and don't have a meta? If it's that strong of a tool, apply it to me then instead of ignoring all of that and only focusing on Data's meta. I'll link you the games that are finished that I was in if you want.

While I was looking for that "live so long" quote, I also stumbled upon this gem too.

3: And how is ‘your predecessor was scummy’ not a point against Amished? We can’t ignore a predecessor to a player,

even if that player has been acting far more pro-town than their predecessor.

(Bolding mine) Awww, I appreciate it. That's one of the most honest things I think you've said.

Mastin, where have you really defended us attacking you for the OOContext quoting. Even if you consider you only saying that it's your playstyle, I'll refer back to "why haven't we seen you do that until now"; as well as stating that it's tunneling to the extreme trying to extract anything scummy regardless of how it was said, and therefore a terrible way to find scum.

Finally, @Mastin:

We still have eight and a half days. I find Amished's rush for a lynch on me, the person who is going heaviest against him, rather scummy.
In addition to that, he had voiced suspicions of me earlier--why did he wait to vote until now?

...

(paragraph in here that I edited out)

There's not much more to say. I would much prefer an Amished lynch today, but would accept the lynching of almost any player here, including myself, to help determine alignments of the other players.

I'm not rushing to lynch you, I'm finally putting my vote where I feel I finally have enough evidence to support my vote on you. You even said that I've voiced opinions against you. This should not have come as a great surprise. The out of context quoting alone would be reason enough for me to vote anybody, and with the doubts that I've supplied earlier, you're overwhelmingly my top candidate for scum.

[Amished]

I guess I get .. not exactly the opposite feeling, but definitely not the same about Ald. The way I view Ald is that he's is responding to Mastin's large posts the way he is because of how he feels a good amount of Mastin's points need clarification or he doesn't agree with them. I think a large part of why I feel it's that way rather than fueling Mastin is that for Ald's first 46 posts they are short, concise and to the point; and only changed because of Mastin joining.

I know my posts wouldn't be nearly as long if I agreed with Mastin and/or understood all of his points the first time. I could make my posts longer by asking about points not directed at me, but I also rely/hope for the other people that Mastin poses questions to to answer for themselves.

The way they're (Mastin/Ald) acting just doesn't lend itself to them being scumbuddies IMO.

[Amished]

With the "fueling" argument, I firmly believe that the only reason that Ald started his huge posts in response to Mastin. Now, that would make sense for Ald to start that when Mastin came in only if they were scumbuddies so that they could thoroughly confuse the town (in which case they'd be doing a damn good job of it). With their disagreements over Peace, meta, me, and just about *everything* else, it seems highly unlikely that they're both scum to me. So the fueling only makes sense to me if they're scumbuddies, but I don't believe for one second that they're buddies because of the differences in opinion over so many things. If it's all an act, it's a hell of a good one. Therefore, it's either ald-scum/mastin-town; ald-town/mastin-scum; or ald-town/mastin-town.

For Ald, I see more pro-town arguments. I got the same read on dizardin's "being quiet statement" where he was only contributing to the problem, Mastin passing it off as being a town-tell just doesn't make sense. *If anything*, it's a null tell. Saying you're going to lurk is anti-town because lurking is anti-town. While saying it brings it to the forefront (drawing attention to yourself, which generally scum don't want), it doesn't alleviate the problem of lurking being anti-town. With Peace's hammer, I felt it was right to at least wait for him to come back and defend himself/claim if necessary. Against Mastin, I don't think that he would've claimed anything but VT, but it truly is impossible to say. I don't know if Josh's claim would've changed anything as I've seen people say that they auto-lynch claimed VT's, but even if nothing changed, allowing a defense is pro-town, while stifling discussion is anti-town. I also get the same read against Mastin's newly found ability to quote out of context, especially as I'm the one he's targetting with it. Even if it was against anybody else, being that tunnel-visioned to try to make somebody appear scummy as to lose all appearances of being reasonable is anti-town. Due to this, I view him as more on my town side of things, and eliminates one of my options (ald-scum/mastin-town).

Much of my thoughts against Mastin revolve around these points as well, but there's another reason. I'm not sure what Mastin is planning, but even I'm picking up on some breadcrumbing from him. I don't know for sure if it's true or not, but it appears that he's trying to set up a cop claim. If that's the case, with his "everything peace does/did is pro-town" stance before and during my time in the game it would've suggested that he *as cop* got an innocent on Peace. With his completely opposite stance for me, it would seem that he got a guilty on Data/me. Obviously both simultaneously can't be true (only one night action), and I know the latter to be false. Therefore, if a cop got an innocent, I do not believe that they'd be so tunnelvisioned on somebody that they don't have a result on, and could wait til the next day instead of concocting some points against your suspect. Sure, you can go after them, but to do it with the ferocity that he did doesn't seem to be in character for him, judging from what I've seen this game and how he's treated everybody else. So even if he was to say he's the cop, I don't think I'd believe it. From there, he's either a lying townie trying to mislead everyone (scummy) or he's scum trying to pretend to be a cop (scummy). Either way, since it's not Lylo I'm not as worried about the first option as I would be otherwise, and the second one is self-explanatory.

[Amished]

Hmm, I didn't see that as that swaying of an option until recently when he started to defend himself. Perhaps I got swayed by the hammer/lack of really thinking through it, but what makes you think he's obv-town?

[Amished]

I've brought this point up before, regarding the hammer. I've specifically said this to Mastin, so it could be hard to see in one of our walls o' text.

Both Sens and Ald wanted to wait with the hammer. Sens because he didn't think Josh was scum, Ald because he wanted a claim or defense. I believe the person you replaced also was leaning away from a Josh lynch (and was one of the top reasons why Peace decided to hammer). With three people (if I remember correctly about Joe), even Mastin said that he would've considered waiting with the hammer had it been up to him. Sens is now a confirmed townie which also lends to my point that if somebody has a pro-town suggestion (waiting for more discussion) you should wait. Stifling discussion with multiple suggestions (two at minimum *in this case* three IIRC about Joe) to wait with that hammer was not pro-town in my eyes. I've never said that hammers are always scummy, but there are things that I will always disagree with if somebody hammers under certain circumstances. Having multiple people ask to wait with a hammer, especially in a game of this size and without a deadline, and then having somebody hammer is one of those circumstances.

As to my suspicions on Peace, it's almost fully revolving around that, and this whole time I've wanted more explanation from him about it. Lately he has been defending himself (finally) which lessened my suspicions of him. If it wasn't for Mastin, I don't know who I'd be voting for at the moment. What with the deadline now as well, I believe we really need to start getting all of our act in gear. Obviously Mastin @ L-1 will bring out something to discuss about him in particular, but we all do need to be keeping our eyes out for another option if Mastin's defense is particularly convincing.

[Amished]

It's not the fact that they were arguing for a different lynch, it's that they wanted discussion. I certainly realize I could be wrong about somebody's alignment, and more discussion *could* either bring massive town tells or massive scum tells, swaying the vote one way or another. If nothing changes, then they're still at L-1 and if you feel strongly enough you can still hammer. So it would stop me for a bit, and I guess I'll just rack that up to a difference in playstyle.

Mastin, as you're not at L-1 anymore, and Manho has yet to relay his thoughts on us about page 23 that he missed, I would think holding off on a claim might be beneficial. It just depends on how you look at it. Unnecessary claims are bad, but if you think it's necessary and you think you claiming will make a drastic difference, go for it as it'd be necessary. Without knowledge of your role, I sure as hell can't be the correct judge of that.

Manho, like I hinted before, I just want to make sure we hear your thoughts on page 23, and see where you are if anything changed. If not, I guess I would not support a vote *right now* but as long as you say you would vote, that'll give us the information that we as a town and Mastin would need to really decide if a claim is necessary without putting Mastin in danger of a hammer without discussion.

lasaiki and peace, I'd also like to hear your stance on what has transpired not only recently but overall.

[Amished]

Well, that confirms my vote as well. I know I'm Vanilla Townie (I'm at L-1, and have a "cop" saying I'm guilty, so I felt it prudent to claim).

As to your claim post: "Three times IN A ROW"? Putting it that way would've made me believe you even less if I didn't already know you're scum. 1 chance in 9 times 3 games? 1 in 9 two games in a row is one in 81, 3 games in a row shoots that up to over 1 in 700. As to how you hinted that you thought he was a pr "before" you joined all easily could've been a lie to solidify your position on how you believe Peace is protown. The sick of being put at L-1 is just a pure appeal to emotion and I hope nobody falls for that.

@xtoxm: I wasn't looking for the cop, but it was so painfully obvious to me at least that he was going to try. As I know my role, and he was so sure the whole time that I was scum I knew him to be lying. I obviously couldn't just come out and say that because he hadn't claimed for sure, but it really was just that obvious to me. He's left probably 4 loaves of bread behind him by this time in the game. I still don't believe that a cop would have been that obvious about it, tried to be subtle and point it out later without blatantly giving your position away so early without just flat out claiming. If you didn't see that coming, you clearly didn't read the thread closely enough.

Back @Mastin: I really really really want to see what evidence you can pull together to really support your claim that I'm partnered with anybody. It's BS and you know it.

@xtoxm: And when I turn out to be town you have a confirmed scum too, while still leaving yourself in lylo for the next two days. Whereas if you lynch Mastin today, we'll have two chances to catch the last scum instead of only having 1 in a three person endgame.

I really hope we have a real cop and we can lynch Mastin fake-claiming.

[Amished]

1 in 16 (.0625) is a lot greater than 1 in 729 (.0014, rounding up). I know the chances for cop 3 games in a row isn't that bad, and that's why I'm not criticizing that. The chances of *

you

being* cop 3 games in a row is hugely less likely.

Every game you have a new chance, but overall the pure odds of hitting it that many times in a row is unlikely. You hit the lottery, you'll still have the same odds of hitting it the next time you play, doesn't mean you will. Odds are against it. This is an extreme example the opposite way of what you're trying to argue, but I feel your example is a little off.

--Didn't, eh? We have your word for it (see what I did there? ....)

is an easy example, but there are many others

Taken right from your quote and therefore also directly from the wiki. You taking the only example there is misrepresenting what I was trying to say. You censoring out a swear word is a carefully laid comment to make it appear you were madder than you are. If you were really that mad, why didn't you say it until now when you were forced to claim? The fact that you can also took the time to deliberately censor yourself also shows to me that you're not nearly as mad as you say you are. You're banking on

appealing to

other people's

emotions

by saying you're mad about being at L-1.

On a related note, I thought you wouldn't fear the lynch as town? The reason I'm mad about being at L-1 is the fact that I'm being put there because of a fake claim.

As to your "desperate attempt" it hasn't seemed all that desperate until recently. Even you said that you tried to make it painfully obvious, so I'm countering xtoxm's statement that I was "looking for a cop" when it should've been right in front of your face. Major suspicion to xtoxm for that.

Ah, I was wondering when you'd bring up previous games. Yes, you can be confirmed in those, but you are in no way confirmed in this one. You're just banking on past actually being the cop and transferring it to this one when the town can't prove you to be anything. I know you're scum, but I can't prove it cause I can't quote my role-pm and they can't because they can't see yours or my PM.

The fact that you weren't hammered proves that manho is my partner? Are you out of your mind? Who's to say peace or xtoxm isn't your partner and didn't hammer you because of that? It's a BS argument, and I hope that's pretty clear too. Perhaps lasaiki or Ald is my partner then because he hasn't been around to hammer you? If they're scum them hammering their partner so quickly would surely turn heads and make us question how they knew you were scum. Perhaps they'd then try to claim cop, but even after that there's still a 50% chance of having a cop to CC them losing the game outright. Perhaps they just don't want to take a chance at lynching the cop so they haven't hammered you as them being townies? You're so full of it, always pulling out the *only* example that can support your argument when there's clearly other options out there. You're not actually trying to scumhunt with those arguments, you're just furthering your scum agenda. Your "evidence" that manho is my partner is less than nothing, so I really want to see real evidence supporting your far-fetched claim.

Oh, but if you are hammered, they'll know I'm right about you being scum. I still might be lynched tomorrow due to bad play, but that's neither here nor there. But I will not be lynched because you turn up as cop.

I'm sure you also hope that there's a doc so you can keep playing cop, and say you're getting RB'd. Rather convenient solution to not have to do a damn thing "proving" you're cop throughout the rest of the game.

Oh, and how does long nights directly translate into having a doc? What kind of bogus logic are you using now? Really now, what kind of crap are you spewing to live through the day?

[Amished]

Yeah, I kinda lol'd at Ald saying I replaced into an unwinnable situation and all. I didn't get any of the communication between data and mastin so I was flying blind and I caught on within Mastin's first 5 posts after I came in what he was trying to do. Sucks that we lost though, Mastin, you really made me not want to read most of the game, but you gave it more than I've ever seen anybody give to a game.

more to come later

[Amished]

Indeed you were. Which is also why I *couldn't* counterclaim cop as if I did and the cop was just hiding for some weird reason then he'd have us both and the game would end. So either I had to convince everyone that he was just scum playing a gambit to get the scum team into lylo or to go berserk and try to make him look as believable as possible.

Overall I thought the town played an excellent game by just not doing scummy things. I've seen many a town just fail because one or two do a gambit to get themselves lynched and distract from real scum hunting. Kudos to you all, especially those that stayed in the whole way through. However, the replacing out isn't a definite scumtell as almost everyone did at some point though both of the scum needed replacing. If you have absolutely nothing else to go on, it might help at end game just due to having enough time for scum to get frustrated, but not clear cut like you said, Mastin. It was also partially because of this game that I've been getting more and more frustrated with you in other games (which you worded very carefully) about meta not working on you when I have a ongoing scum game of you that I could easily compare you to, but nobody else could and I couldn't bring it up.

[Amished]

We were both goons so either there was a cop or there was a doc. Town didn't know either way, and with Mastin claiming cop (and no CC) there obviously was a doc out there somewhere. No matter which of us died, there wouldn't have been a roleblocker reveal to prove it so either we outed the cop or had a safeclaim (basically).

[Amished]

Yes, that was subtle praise to Ald who was the only non-replacement that didn't die D1 and stayed til the end.