Newbie 748 - OhGodMyHamlet - GAME OVER

[lasaiki]

Hello everybody! Just checking in to let you know I´m here. Now to the reading.

[lasaiki]

Done with the reading!

Some of you guys enjoy big, huge posts, huh?

I´ve read everything in order... but to get a bettter opinion on everyone I think I´ll need to look everybodys´posts in isolation.

However at first sight I´m suspicious of Data, which I don´t remember he have done anything but lurking, not writing real content.

I enjoyed the "tour de force" on day one with the hammer question. I need to look into it...that anxiety to get a lynch and none wanted to hammer. I don´t think peace has to be punished for hammering, not necesarily...

[lasaiki]

Sorry guys I took a couple of days off.

Manho and Alduskkel. Doing a good job as scumhunter.
Joe cool. Why are you unvoting Josh in post 282? He was the only one you find somehow scummy. You give no reason por the unvote. Just a new plan.. But there´s´ no other analisis before unvoting to explain your decision. In 337 you find Josh scummy again?!

And then in 384 you vote for peace. But you didn´t find peace so scummy as Josh and then Data. So you skip Data (now Amished), which was more scummy acording to your scummy list than Peace.

Mastin. Comments and more comments but real content must be somewhere between. Your analisis are hiden behind walls of words and this is not helping me. Just because you write a lot don´t mean you´re town. But it´s very difficult to understand your point when you make comments like this:

Makes a joke in the pre-game. Fine by itself, although let’s just say I show very, very great caution towards jokes. As for the comment about wanting to start up soon, again, this—to me—implies that dizard has no buddy to privately talk to.

contributes hardly nothing to the game. It´s your opinion about jokes.... so what? Ok, but how is this helping to hunt scum?
In summary. No opinion on mastin. I can´t read him. I have no time to read useless comments.

Peace. to vote no-lynch = no good but can be understood as newbie playstile. I won´t take it to much into acount. Townie points for trying to explain himself better and explaining his suspicions.

Amished. Let´s see..... I already said Data was scummy for me because of his lurking and dumm posts but now it´s different...

[lasaiki]

Note everyone that my previous summary is an overall impression after 20 pages. It will be more accurate when I become more familiar with everyone.

Lasai wrote:
Manho and Alduskkel. Doing a good job as scumhunter.

Because they’re not targeting you, perhaps?

Please…. I guess nobody is targeting me because I´m new. I think you haven´t target me either... well I don´t know it very well because I skimmed a lot… anyway I don´t like what you want to imply here. I take the game seriously. I give my thoughts freely, no matter if someone is targeting me or not.

Mastin in post 508 sumarizes: data/amished should be scum. Well, let´s see how your big post helps me to understand your point. Let´s take this as an example. These are the things you said about Amished, which supposedly are new evidence against him:

• Welcome to the game
  I wish I could remember the evil smiley in Microsoft Word
  Thanks
  Evil
  blablabla...
  I´m attacking you
  More than meta to the case
  Your predecessor was scummy.

Where, for life´s sake, are you making a case on Data/ Amished???? I don´t know how this part post, THAT WE ALL HAD TO READ, shows something useful. You´re not backing up your points here. Seems there´s no connection between what you think and what you write. Please, go to the main points and back up your thesis or I will just read your post summaries (if you post any).

You know this is active lurking but in a greater scale.

Other questions.

Well, I´ve seen how some of you like the so called GUPI statements…. I´m not a friend of that assumption. As far as I´m concerned I´m used to consider people innocent until proven guilty. (That is IUPG, for me )

I also don´t like the use of meta; people can change or improve their playstyle.

I´ll try to reread some highlights of the thread this weekend.

[lasaiki]

If you have more, please, enlighten us all

Yes, but nothing beneficial to the town—it’d just give the scum (likely you and your buddy) an advantage they currently do not hold.

Hiding info = scummy

What about Manho do you feel is good scumhunting? So far (especially lately) it appears like he was trying to clarify a confirmed (dead) townie with Peace. What else caught your attention?
However, THIS, I *can* quote from you, and still say it’s for truth. Mind answering, Lasai?

I said I´ll reread the highlights of the thread this weekend. Anyway, iirc peace had already explained that to manho. So maybe there´s nothing more to add….

---

Mastin, are you the only one who can appeal to experience? Is the following an inconsistency or just going after someone for the sake of writing more? You said:

The thing is, I see scum doing this more often than town on epicmafia, where I draw a good portion of my experience from.

and

So, my experience shows that pro-town players do it very often

and

Experience shows me that this doesn’t do the town very good, but then again, my experience is different than yours.

and

So says my experience.

and

So says my experience. Cite even more of my experience

but then you critizices people here for using his experience as an argument.

Your logic:
If it’s more likely to be done by scum than by town, then it is a scum tell.
I’ve seen it done far more often by scum than by town.
Hence, at least in my experience, it is more of a scum tell than anything else.

What´s more, you dodge the previous question.

Active lurking is when you post for the sake of posting without adding too much to the case. What´s your conclusion from post 522? Who´s now more scummy to you? How changed that big post your views on Amished/Alduskkel/Manho? (the three you´re talking about). I swear I read this post much more deeply than others, but I got nothing new.

Regarding your self flagellation: it´s up to you how you spend your time. I don´t care a bit about what you do in your spare time. But I do care about mine.

[lasaiki]

EBWOP (adding)

I´d like to have more time to analize and follow everyone´s actions in the game, but I can´t. So, before you say, Mastin, I´m not tunnelvissioning you. I´d love to split my time into everyone and not finding that every time I check in there´s a huge post that takes my time and strengths away.

[lasaiki]

Lasai wrote:
Hiding info = scummy
Ask any person who's been the cop, or the doctor, in Newbie games. Or any power role across the sight

Oh, boy, is this a silly breadcrumb, to not say you´re just hiding info?

Quote:
but then you critizices people here for using his experience as an argument.
Oh? Really? I see none of this in the quotes you give.

I´m sorry you don´t pay attention to what others say.

Oh, man, I´m really stuck on your posts.... I´ll need to move forward, given there´s a deadline...

Welcome Xtoxm. I had some questions for your replacee and I´m aware you can´t answer them...so now, they mean nothing.... voting without reasons? Are you looking for reactions? It´s so obvious it´s scummy:

Vote Xtoxm

[lasaiki]

Been a while since I took Spanish, but this phrase I do remember well:
No comprende.

Not so well, hehe… Right: No comprendo

wrote:
Yes, coaching is just the way to make me think you're pro-Town, Mastin.

Apparently, it's worthy of pointing out how a person is merely teaching the players, in a Newbie Game. I rather thought such things were pointless. >_>

Coaching is always pleasant for newbies. That makes them feel confortable. The person who coach seems to be protown just because of being nice with other (a priori) pro town newbies, but it´s a null-tell.

---

Mastin you said once you wasn´t the only one making mega large posts. True, but after reading Amished I got the point. Amished´s large post in page 22 shows a synthesis ability, which I´m afraid to say, you can´t show it. Taking sentences out of context don´t help. That´s scummy. Looking for inconsistencies has to be done looking at the whole picture. What you do is very annoying, because there are lots of comments that mean nothing without a context and what´s more, you loose their track so at the end you don´t know what was that you wanted to point out. Twisting things is not scumhunting.

[lasaiki]

Mod, I´m voting for Xtoxm

and I´m adding a

Fos

to Mastin because of what I was posting yesterday.

Well, I´ve been reading again through dizardin´s (now peace) posts. I had my doubts regardin dizardin, whose posts I didn´t read so deeply when I came in. I hadn´t realize what he was doing until replaced. It wasn´t a case of lurking as was Data´s, but I can´t say he was contributing a lot. I´d say he was just talking about things that happenned in the game without adding anything of his own. He was new in MS, so maybe this is why... I don´t know…. Anyway, he shares role with peace, so, there´s a handicap there for the last. I´ve always said peace shouldn´t be punished for hammering. Lynching people and therefore hammering is the only way town has to find scum. Scum won´t NK one of themselves… obv. Anyway, Dizardin was the one who voted no-lynch even on day one! He also wanted to wait to everybody to vote.
I´m sorry Peace that you have that bear with it…. But I don´t blame you for hammering but for your predecessor actions. Some people think there was no time for Josh to claim, but although I wasn´t there, it seems to me there was a lot of time left for that before hammering and the discussion held before about that issue.

My opinion on the rest still stands… well, Manho seems to not post so often as before and as I´d expect, but I can´t say a lot here, as I can´t log in more than twice a day and sometimes when I log in for the second time I get nothing new… I guess this is because I´m in a different time zone than most of you.

For the rest, Amished and Alduskkel appear townish…

Votecount Fixed. -OGML

[lasaiki]

Well, I was suspicious of Xtoxm and thought Amished was town...
Al least we still have a "free" lynch before entering into lylo...

When Mastin claimed cop I had my doubts... And now I still have my doubts, because we don´t really know if the claim is true. I mean, we don´t have a way to know this. Had Amished flipped RB, only a goon is left. Now it´s the other way around; we know who the goon was, but we don´t know if there´s a goon or a roleblocker left.

If Mastin is really the cop, and there´s a roleblocker left, he must have been roleblocked.
If Mastin is a scum and there´s no doctor ( either there´s a doctor or no roles, given there was no counterclaim for cop), then there must be only a goon left. So if it is Mastin, I bet he will say he was roleblocked and nobody can know if this is true or false.

I´m sorry the cop is now useless either way. He will be RB´d all the time or he will say he was RB´d if he is scum... Anyway, I´m about to believe his claim. My gut says it... And as long as we´re not in lylo yet, there´s no big problem in believing.

Now I´m going to re-evaluate and reread.

[lasaiki]

Mastin, what? Asking Manho for a claim with just one vote on him? Well, that´s more than rolefishing, dude….

And btw, thinking about it… What was the point of breadcrumbing cop? I don´t understand it. Doing that you just attract the attention of the scum to get you lynched or roleblocked. And there´s hardly no benefit, if any.

On the other hand, I found weird that Amished, an experienced player, wouldn´t have counterclaimed, as Alduskkel pointed out….It seems he just saw the claim coming, maybe from his buddy, if it is you…. That could be the scum strategy. And now, as I pointed out before, you are useless as cop. You´re at best a pro-town player just like every VT.

So, on second thoughts I was about to vote for you, but rereading Peace´s posts I found a super scummy thing:

Ok..I'll try and explain my vote on Josh...keep in mind this was many days ago so

I'm trying to remember my thought process.

How come you don´t remember what lead you to hammer someone?

[lasaiki]

Um..because the game was dragging on for weeks upon weeks and it was a long while after the hammer when the question was asked. Which was stated pretty clearly I think. "Keep in mind this was many days ago."

Ok, fair enough. I wasn´t there, so I can´t question this further.

Regarding Mastin, well, I don´t want to blow this up, but you´re the most likely to be scum right now... It´s hard to believe Ald is scum except for the good point Manho pointed out. Point #3, that he wasn´t Nk´d being an IC... but Sensfan and Xtom were also experinced players, although Xtom was not here playing as an IC.... well, whatever

And Manho is also contributing. I´ve read through his posts and I couldnt´find nothing against him. On the contrary, he has made some insightful comments from time to time...

Yeah, Mastin, I also like to see your points against those two.

[lasaiki]

Here there´s something that we should have done after seeing Data/ Amished were scum, namely the analysis of the relationships between every player and him. Here are the highlights (the more noticeable comments from my POV). These are the comments about Data made by all of you. I took Amished off because he was replaced at the end. No much input from Amished then.

Mastin about Data

: I´m aware you Mastin wrote a lot, and that´s why you have more comments than everyone. I don´t mean this is scummy.

Shows concern about fos on data from Serplat (now me):

FoS's can become votes, so with several FoS's on Data (especially on newbies, who have the tendency to follow more experienced players), it can be a bandwagon.

After labeling Data as pro-scum, Mastin defended him with “he doesn´t deserve a lynch”:

Data has done nothing nearly as bad as needing to be lynched on policy, in my opinion.

And here:

Data does not give me that vibe, in that he's scummy, unhelpful, and counterproductive, but not the scummiest player.

And even here:

Quote from someone:
"This feels very OMGUS. Again".
Mastin: Data gave his reasoning, not just a quote.

And here protecting him:

Quote from someone:
"@Datadanne: Your vote for Serplat is OMGUS."
Mastin: Again, I find this vote had more reasoning that his vote of me, or any of the other OMGUS-y votes he had before. That said, though, Data, you should elaborate and give more logic with every vote of yours and explain why.

Defending his slip.

Quote from someone after Data saying he was sure Sensfan is town.
"How is Datadanne so sure that Sensfan is scum or town? Clearly, Datadanne is scum. No question."
Mastin: 1: Data has played with Sensfan before. If Data thinks that Sensfan is pro-town, then this could explain his actions.
2: However, that said, I do agree in that it was a scummy comment to make.

And he threatens with pointing out future inconsistencies to Josh regarding Data here:

I am noting your opinion on how you say Data is scum, right here and now, for future reference in your post to show the inconsistency.

Dizarding- Peacesell about Data

Dizardin wrote about Data:

Course, no news from Data, JL, or rabid yet. Still waiting, see where they jump.
At this point, no post of substance had been made by any of these three players. This, of course, raises suspicion; I had thought Data might vote for SF, simply due to a previous game - especially given Data's numerous posts to the effect of 'Oh No, Not Him'.

Peace wrote:

FOS: Data Very few mafia roles and I can see how a mafia type would say "that's how i win." I'd think townees are more "WE" people.

Alduskkel about Data

Pointing out Data´s omgus votes.
He also defended Data once from what it seemed a scum slip….:

Post 90, Datadanne admits that he knows SensFan is Town... sort of. It could be that he thinks that even a scum lynch wouldn't be beneficial to the Town, since we'd have little to no links to go off of on Day 2 and would have a harder time catching the last one.

Here he find a scummy- tell(¿?)

Well, I guess that´s what he meant: Datadanne says he wants to rush the game along, otherwise the "day will take forever." This when the game had only been going on for about a week or so. It seems like a subtle suggestion of quick lynching.

Here he found another scummy thing:

Data says he's going to lurk, which will hurt discussion. Which is bad

Comment on Data´s actions:

Data pretty much just flat out refused to play, and barely did anything.

Manho about Data

He came into the game and first of all he suspected of Data and goes on suspecting him along the thread. That´s all I could find from Manho.

---

After this, I don´t know if talking a lot about your scumbuddy is good or bad... I don´t like the way Mastin is protecting Data. But now I also find scummy there´s almost no relationship between Manho and Data.

[lasaiki]

but you can say it is scummy that i have never voted data (have I??).

Oh believe me, I also noticed that. And thought about that, you saying Data was scummy and no voting for him. But I checked and realized nobody voted for him neither (except my predecessor), despite the fact that everybody found him more or less scummy.

[lasaiki]

quote= "alduskkel"]]

wrote:
I don´t think peace has to be punished for hammering, not necesarily...
This leaves a lot of wiggle room for her to change her mind. Good for scum wanting to keep their options open.

[/quote]

Well, I didn´t finish the sentence, but this is very common when I´m writing post or e-mails… people get used to that. I just meant “not necesarily because of that, but maybe because of other reasons, already not showed”. In other words, he didn´t give me reasons for being scummy, but falling the hammer will never be scummy.

Amished gave me good vibes when he replaced in. His posts were indeed different to those of Data. Data was scummy because of his lurking and silly posts. Amished didn´t do such things, so he was not so scummy at first sight compared to Data.

I called him “townish” because I wasn´t dead sure what role he held. I´m not saying “town” because that means to me more certainty.

there's a ton of relationship between them. manho was suspicious of Amished/Datadanne for pretty much the entire time that Amished/Datadanne was alive. How did you reach this conclusion?

I made my analisis of all of you looking at what you had wrote regarding Data. Manho certainly mentioned Data more than once, but he was always saying the same argument, that is that Data was scummy. So I didn´t deepen in it.

I´m waiting for Mastin to eventually make a comment to my analysis from the post 656. He last said he was caching up. He is still my top suspect.

[lasaiki]

I am about to vote for Mastin too. It seems he has no more defence arguments. And you said he posted somewhere else, besides?? I guess this might confirm my suspicions.

[lasaiki]

Oh, man, I´ve almost forgotten long post on this thread. I´ll read them in a while

[lasaiki]

Oh, no problem manho. Well I see what´s Mastin is doing... He is just generating debate about whatever he can and trying to deviate attention from the main points of the game. So I´m going ahead and

vote Mastin

[lasaiki]

Mastin, your logic isn´t the best logic of the world, eh.

Discussion-->Scum hunting.
Scum hunting-->The main point of the game.
What I am doing-->Discussion, by your own admition

What, you´re saying you scum hunt. How so? Trying to "double-check" manho´s maths? That´s what you call scum hunt? No man, you´re twisting my words. Discussion is good, analysing what others do is good, but creating a fake debate about maths is a non-valuable discussion. Will you say you will catch scum if manho´s maths are wrong????? Manho is scum is he´s not so good as maths as he said? Oh wait, he lied, then! He should be scum! Is it this your logic? That´s not the main points of the game. The main point is to check if you´re a real or a fake cop.

And by a chance, are you budding up with Alduskkel? Are you trying him to help you just because he is an IC? Do you thing I´m going to buy that "expertise argument"? I´m SE, I´ve played 5 games on MS, so I´ve seen some things here. I know how to play and I know what scum do (I even was scum once).

Manho, a fake cop claim strategy is good. Take into acount you may be cleared forever. You out your scumbuddy but you go to the endgame cleared. That means, in a 3-people endgame, two people vote for themselves, and the fake cop-scum hammer easily winning the game for BOTH scum.

[lasaiki]

Of course, Manho, I prevent Mastin from being cleared without questioning his claim. I need to question every claim just to be sure he is what he says he is.

On the other hand, I tried to find scum among the rest of you, but I´m failing at that... I don´t see anybody more scummy than Mastin. That´s the point. If he is cleared as the real cop then I´ll revisited my stances about you.

Peace, you meant L-1, not lylo...

[lasaiki]

Ok Mastin, you got it. I'll review my suspicions about everyone.

[lasaiki]

I´m also working on peacesells, especially his vote pattern. Yesterday I had a terrible day at work but I´ll find some time to do it soon.

[lasaiki]

This is it.

Vote pattern from Dizardin/peacesells

My comments in italics.

Dizardin did no random vote. Instead an unoficial vote count post 54, where he said: Course, no news from Data, JL, or rabid yet.

Still waiting, see where they jump.

Interesting he was waiting for the people to jump on others.

Post 57. Aware which timezone Data is:
Forgot - Data GMT +1 - likely not seeing posts yet, or will soon. Was living GMT +9 - always out of sync with Americans.

When I was scum I was very aware where my partner was, especially nights, where we had to discuss NKilling. Just caught my attention.

Post 64: first vote: Vote: rabid. Reason: No posts by rabid since day began; too quiet, not helping.
Post 82. unvote, vote sensfan.

(reason: joke)

Post 180. Unvote, vote alduskkel

. (alduskkel was voting for him).

Seems OMGUS vote

Post 253. Fos Data
Post 260. vote nolynch.
Post 271.

This is interesting.

Fos Serplat (Serplat just voted for him in the previous post)

and even change his mind:

Post 272. Vote Serplat.
Post 276. Data hos peacells and vote Serplat.

Post 395. unvote, vote josh

(the hammer). Also he saw joecool as scum when joecool was voting for him.

Post 421. day 2. vote joecool

(consequently).

Post 452 unvote
Post 588 vote amished
Day 3 post 602 vote manho
Post 640 unvote, vote alduskkel alledgelly because he was going after him.

There are some scummy things as: omgus votes, waiting for people to post (this was dizardin´s anyway) but above all the following (from post 271 on): Peacells fos Data and Data hos Peacesells but both are voting for the person who voted for Data (Serplat).

I´ll look into others but I think Peace has more chances to be scum.

[lasaiki]

I think we should discuss something. Alluded people should talk. Peace don´t you have nothing to comment about my analysis? Currently i´m finding you scummy. Ah, but I haven´t totally cleared Mastin... well, let´s see.

[lasaiki]

Honestly..most of you have been doing nothing but talking in circles. Nothing of any great context has been posted.

That´s called scumhunting. Seems like you made up your mind and everything is clear for you.

[lasaiki]

What would you vote, Mastin, and why aren´t you voting after suggesting us to vote?

[lasaiki]

What would you vote, Mastin, and why aren´t you voting after suggesting us to vote?

i think the post you are referring to is from peace, not mastin. and peace has voted ald.

Oh, yes, my bad!

[lasaiki]

The overall stats of mafia vs town wins has been already calculated in MS. I don´t know where, but I think VRK said once town wins 2/3 of the times, so that´s 66% or similiar. Maybe this info is somewhere in the forums.

Anyway it´s very logical that scum wins in early-end games. When there´s no info, lynches are more randomly made, or at least less backed up with info.

[lasaiki]

Now I was leaning towards Peace as scum, but I haven´t clear Mastin at all. As we are not still in lylo I think we should go ahead and trying to lynch someone to see what´s next. We are stuck on this day and this is not good for the sake of the game, you believe me, I was in a game that seems to last forever and people left. So that is not good.

vote Mastin

[lasaiki]

@Manho, I do want a consensus for today´s lynch. I´m seeing Peace and Mastin both as more likely to be scum. I was leaning towards Peace but I haven´t ruled out Mastin. I´ll never vote for you or Alduskkel as long as my info remains the same regarding you or him. At this moment we can afford making a mistake and voting for a protown person, as we are not in lylo. But we need to do something soon. You get nothing if you don´t vote.

I was voting Mastin some time ago, but I was alone, some of you didn´t decided anything so I gave up and looked again at your posts. I saw nobody following me regarding Peace (everybody said he is more likely to be townish). So I was waiting for people to make their mind up. Alduskkel voted for my second best, so I´m voting with him. Had he voted for you, I wouldn´t have followed him.

Why aren´t you voting Peace if you think he is scum for the hammer? Anyway, I think he could be scum but not for the hammer.

What do you think of Mastin right now? Do you still believe his claim 100%?

[lasaiki]

Look people, I made up my mind, unless some new info appears. My top two subjects are Peace and Mastin. So, I don´t care when we lynch them, or in which order, but we need to move forward, don´t you understand this?

On the other hand, it seems there´s a major consensus against Mastin than against Peace, so I´m voting for the "winning horse".

Mastin is a claimed cop, but he got no investigation at night. Isn´t this suspicious? Anyway, if
there´s a RB in this game, cop is totally useless, so it´s like a vainilla townie, Peace.

[lasaiki]

If

he is cop he is town.

Yeah, Peace, you worded it very well: if he is the cop, he is town, but if he isn´t?

The truth is that both, you and him, have made the majority of the scum tells.

[lasaiki]

I´m voting for the "winning horse".

This seems a bit bandwagonish, but then again coming out and saying that you're bandwagoning is a bit silly for scum to do. Though that's exactly why they might do it

This is not bandwagoning. It would be if I were voting for MAstin without thinking he could be scum. But I do believe he has great chances of being scum, so I´m just trying to get a consensus and voting for my second best as it seems nobody would vote for my first best Peace.

@Manho, I´m afraid that if you don´t bold your requests to OGML he may skip them.

[lasaiki]

@Mastin, you have no right to say I´m scummy just because I changed my vote.
- First, because there´s a genuine reason and you´re deliberatelly skiping it, as Alduskkel pointed out.
- Second, because you´re doing the same. You swiched to Alduskkel from your previous suspect Manho. However, you changed not because you think Alduskkel is scum but just to save yourself from a lynch. This is not a pro-town action but a scummish one.

[lasaiki]

He has the right to do as he pleases. Strange statement

Don´t take this with a grain of salt. If he is calling me scummy for changing my vote, so he should be, as he changed his vote too.

Him voting Alduskkel is pro-town if he is innocent. If mastin is innocent then his voting for someone else to be lynched is pro town. Allowing yourself to be lynched is not.

The question is this (before Ald changed his vote):
Peace votes Alduskkel
Alduskkel votes Mastin
Lasaiki votes Mastin

Which is the best and fastest way to get a hammer on someone else than Mastin (for Mastin)? Easy: Mastin votes Alduskkel and tied two-two.

So there´s two votes for each person and Manho decides.
Mastin´s action is scummy because he wants to avoid his lynch fostering someone else´s lynch. He doesn´t care whom, just wants to avoid his own lynch. If I´m town, I´m defending myself not fostering a lynch to save me.

[lasaiki]

No, it´s innocent until proven guilty.

[lasaiki]

No, it´s innocent until proven guilty.

no, you think he is guilty, so it is guilty until proven innovent for you. whatever, it is a null tell.

The statement was said generally speaking. I consider everyone innocent until proven guilty.

[lasaiki]

Nice that nobody died!

It bothers me that you three lynched Alduskkel.

Manho hammered after Alduskkel explained himself. At least you could have explained why you didn´t believe him after that post. I was so sure he was no more than 10-15% scummy...

And what to say about Peace, were you voting him as a revenge, because of what he did to you?

Well, let´s move us forward. I´ve re-read this game I haven´t change my mind; among the three of you I think I could clear more likely Manho, if someone, as he has done good comments and generally speaking seems not to have misled anybody. About Peace and MAstin I´m not sure... maybe there´re more scumtells regarding Mastin than Peace.

[lasaiki]

Anyway, I got roleblocked.
Meaning that either the mafia no-killed,
Or our doctor was successful in a protection.
Meaning the mafia now KNOW who the doctor is,
Since they wouldn't both night-kill and roleblock me,
Thereby meaning they targeted someone else,
Thereby meaning that the person targeted is not the doctor,
And knowing themselves,
They now know the doctor unless they no-killed for some strange reason.

Total rolefishing Mastin. This is super scummy, are you trying to out the doctor? Only mafia wants to know who the doctor is just to know who to nightkill next.

On the other hand, what you said stands only in the case that you´re the cop. It is still unconfirmed that you´re the cop, don´t you remember? You´ve proved nothing. You say you´re the cop. We can trust you, but there´s nothing definite.

we should have no lynch today and let the mafia kill.

Now it´s not a good idea, Manho, as only the mafia knows if there was a no-kill last night or there was a failed attempt to kill. If scum tried to kill but couldn´t, he will choose another person this time, trying to find the doctor for free (free shot).

Lynching is the only way to find mafia. Technically there´s more than 1 out of 4 chances to lynch scum. We have information. We can use it. Let´s jointly state which are our suspects and vote.

Mine are Mastin and Peace. Peace has lowered it´s scumminess in respect to Mastin, who keeps doing scumtells.

[lasaiki]

Mastin should know who the doctor is if he is the scum

How do you know he didn´t make a no-Nkill?? Do you know that for sure? Do you even know if there´s a doctor in the game? In the no-Nkill case, Mastin-scum don´t know for sure if there´s a doctor. Hence the rolefishing... or well, maybe he does know, and that´s the reason why he rolefishes so vehemently. However a hiden doctor is good for day 5. It gives the opportunity to save someone, as it was today. So there would be still a small chance of not being in lylo day 5.

Btw, would you lynch randomly? Let´s put on the table who are the scummiest people and let´s vote, even if it´s me, if I´m scummy vote for me. That´s the game.

What´s the no-lynch for? How come are you going to lynch scum? Let´s talk, first.

[lasaiki]

I´m not against a mass claim, but as town, we have more chances to win with a doctor alive.

Manho, the doctor claim has to be at L-2, as we are in lylo and the remaining scum will hammer when any pro-town player is at L-1.

[lasaiki]

Total rolefishing Mastin.

1: Flat-out asking for a claim isn't rolefishing. It's asking for a claim.

2: Why are you calling me out for it, when Peace was suggesting the same thing?

I´m not calling you out because of asking a mass claim, but because you want at all costs the doctor to show, as if you need it, somehow.

Unless the mafia no-killed, Lasaiki, they already KNOW who the doctor is. Meaning the doc would die tonight unless they did truly no-kill.

No, that´s what you say as claimed cop. But from my POV even if the scum did a shot, he can´t be sure who the doctor is. He would know there´s a doctor but that´s one out of three.

Meaning the doc would die tonight unless they did truly no-kill.

Yeah , but me, as town, I don´t know if there was a shot or not. And that´s our chance, the no-kill.

It is still unconfirmed that you´re the cop, don´t you remember?

I gave all the evidence I can to support this as the case.

Well, except that you never succeed in doing a night investigation... whatever the reasons.
Anyway, you can´t oblige us to believe you, you can´t even expect it. This is a game of lies, so, you can very well understand we can´t trust any claim.

Peace has lowered it´s scumminess in respect to Mastin, who keeps doing scumtells.

You're calling me out...for something Peace did before I did.

I showed where Peace did a scumtell. You´re doing a lot more than him.

[lasaiki]

Ok, nice flight!

[lasaiki]

Well, except that you never succeed in doing a night investigation...

False--I succeeded in catching Data. Since then (as I have been roleblocked), sure, I have gotten nothing.

No, you never did a night investigation. You at most succed in outing your scumpair.

I showed where Peace did a scumtell. You´re doing a lot more than him.

No, I am doing the exact same supposed scumtells as Peace, after Peace did them. Yet you only pointed them out from me...

Which are they? Appart from that question that I pointed out about the vote to Serplat when Data was being attacked, I´ve found no more scumtells from Peace. And you keep doing them. The last ones were voting for Alduskkel to get an easy lynch, which is something that you never deny.

[lasaiki]

Yes, well, I mean both posibilities can be true. Not only what mastin stated.

[lasaiki]

Ok, do you want a mass claim?

I´m the doc

At night I´ll try to protect someone. If I succeed I can clear him. Actually I protected Manho last night. I did it so because Mastin stated some days ago that he thought Manho was the doc, that is an easy target for the night.

Now that you have what you wanted, we´d better lynch.
Mastin if you hammer this option to go into night, you´ll be revealed as scum. Scum is the only one that benefits from a no-lynch.

[lasaiki]

Previous night, on night 2, I protected Alduskkel as he was the IC. He also seemed likely pro-town to me.

The same did my predecesor Serplat on night 1. He protected Alduskkel but I can say the reasons. Just got that info when I replaced in.

[lasaiki]

I´d say Manho is almost clear. If I have any doubts these are between mastin and peace. Of course I´ve seen mastin a lot scummier than peace, but what if it is peace??? Not sure if I´d make up my mind yet..

[lasaiki]

Just spouting out some thoughts here. Trying to reason this out loud.

If Lasaiki is the DOC then she is reasoning Manho is clear based on her protecting him and no night kill took place.

Yes, that´s true. I give little chance that a no-kill had place. There´s still a chance, however. Anyway, my suspicions on manho desapeared gradually until near zero.

[lasaiki]

No, you never did a night investigation. You at most succed in outing your scumpair.

Yes, I did do a night investigation. After Josh's mislynch, I investigated Data and never stopped pushing his lynch, because I had a guilty on him.

It is also posible that you outed your scumpair

Appart from that question that I pointed out about the vote to Serplat when Data was being attacked, I´ve found no more scumtells from Peace. And you keep doing them.I have done no scum-tells that Peace has not

I have to say that I expected this. After defending peace a lot along the game, now you think he´s scummy.

Point out my recent scum-tells.

I did it already.

And I can guarantee you that I can find where Peace does something extremely similar, in all likelihood.

You don´t need to guarantee anything. I´m analizing the case but my own.

After my introduction post to the game, I IMMEDIATELY post my thoughts on the game so far. The points raised there reflect most of my views to this day

.

nice

This, amongst others, shows my devotion to the game. As I have stated, I find devotion to be a town-tell, and lack of it to be a scum tell.

Not necesarily, you can also have fun playing the role of scum.

-I have shown a willingness to reverse my opinion on a player. Sensfan gave me links to read, and once I read them all, my opinion on Sensfan was reversed from scum to town, due to the evidence that he wasn't scum.

This shows you didn´t tunnelvisioned him at the end.

-I actually defended Data a little day one. Overnight, with my guilty based off of later actions from Data, my opinion was reversed and I went HEAVILY for a lynch of Data.

Alduskkel had a better explanation for this, I think.

-When I was put at L-1, I did not 'freak out' like most scum would.

This shows you´re an experienced player.

-A point used against me was that I failed to say that I was roleblocked and who I investigated. I was short on time, and found such an action pointless. I am alive. Hence, there is a doctor. Additionally, that--by extent--means there's a roleblocker and that I was roleblocked.

No, in this game there can be either two goons+doc or either goon+roleblocker+doc+cop. This kind of fooling annoys me. I´m not a noob.

I´m the doc

...What. The. Heck?!?

You're the doctor?
...But I thought you were the last scum. :/
Why were you pushing for my lynch so hard, Lasaiki, when you knew my claim was more likely to be true? (Read: I was roleblocked, confirming your presence in the game.)

Of course you are not confirmed at all.

At night I´ll try to protect someone. If I succeed I can clear him.

You know, we all know this info already. It's on the front page. :/

AS it was the set-up of this game, and you tried to deceive us.

After preview the post, things are more clear now.

vote mastin

[lasaiki]

Mastin, make a case on who you think is more scummy and I´ll take into account.
I don´t know who do you think is now scummy. Some days ago you thought it was me, but before that you thought it was manho. Now, you say it´s peace? Why this suddenly change? You´re changing your criteria freely, withouth backing up with a case or even with doubts. Don´t you have any doubts? I find this very odd.
I can be wrong but I´m voting who I think is most scummy. But at least I draw my conclusions from the posts.

Lasaiki wrote:
It is also posible that you outed your scumpair
But given my play, do you think it is PROBABLE?

Yes, otherwise I wouldn´t been voting for you. It´s more likely now than peace scum.

Lasaiki, you're tunneling on me. If Manho were to be the mafia and Peace's vote counted, then this kind of attitude would lose us the game, right then and there.

You are here appealing to emotion. I listened to you, I refute your theory and finally decided to vote you. I just made up my mind. What I don´t like of your case is that you´re trying to mislead the town, saying silly things as you´re confirmed. I don´t like that. I also don´t like that you keep quoting things for your benefit. I remember a lot of things that I could quote against you but I don´t have time to do it.

This shows you didn´t tunnelvisioned him at the end.

Which is a town tell, no?
Not necessarily.

No, in this game there can be either two goons+doc or either goon+roleblocker+doc+cop. This kind of fooling annoys me. I´m not a noob.

I'm speaking from my perspective, Lasaiki.

Again, don´t even try to mislead the town! If I voted you it was secondarily because you´re trying too hard to deceive us. We know the possible set-ups of this game, and there´s nothing confirmed.

...Which you did not counter, Lasaiki.

Everything can be reduced to:I´ve been scummy all the game, so what? Well, it matters.. Actually, we lynch scum looking people. We don´t lynch town-looking people. And for now, the most scummy between you and peace is you.

Lasaiki wrote:
Of course you are not confirmed at all.

Not confirmed to anyone but myself, yea, but I am at least semi-confirmed.

Semi-confirmed??????? The whole game can be explained very well with you being scum. Give me some days, and I´ll do it.

You're really using such a minor point against me?

Deceiving us is not a minor point at all. It´s major!

You. Are. Tunneling.

No, I really had my doubts. I also have them, I will always have, but I´m leaning towards the most scummy of this game. As I said here in post 829:

I´d say Manho is almost clear. If I have any doubts these are between mastin and peace. Of course I´ve seen mastin a lot scummier than peace, but what if it is peace??? Not sure if I´d make up my mind yet..

[lasaiki]

Btw, I almost forget this:
@mastin

I did it so because Mastin stated some days ago that he thought Manho was the doc, that is an easy target for the night.

Incorrect.
I stated that I had THOUGHT Peace to be a Power Role before replacing in, but that--upon receiving the cop role (again)--I found that possibility less likely.

I did protect manho because you said he could be the doc. Now let´s see if you said it or not.
Post iso 51

If Manho is the doctor, and that were to happen

If Manho is the doctor and I withhold my vote,

No matter how I put it, I think we need a claim from Manho at the very least, and depending on what he claims, lynch him, or someone else. (Depending on claiming doctor/vanilla)

Post iso 54

If he [manho] isn't the doc, then the doc's still around, unblocked, and the scum are at a disadvantage, actually.

Well, I think is pretty clear you really thought manho had a chance to be the doc.
Now the point is I protected manho because you said that. This means that I protected manho because scum could shot manho.

Are you the scum? So, how can you say my assesment is incorrect? I protected manho because you targeted him. This doesn´t mean you´re scum, it only means scum could have tried to kill manho because you targeted him.

Saying manho could be the doctor didn´t become you scum. Denying it and saying peace instead of manho, makes you a lot more suspicious. You´re not responsible for targeting manho, only scum is. Why that need to correct it and say peace instead of manho? To me that involves you want us to believe you have nothing to do with a possible manho shot. Why? You know that "excusatio non petita, accusatio manifesta".

And what´s more. When I protected manho I wasn´t sure if scum was you or peace. Now that you said (false) that you targeted peace, I have no more doubts: Peace wouldn´t shot to himself.

[lasaiki]

MOD question: When the doctor is successful in protecting someone is he/she notified that the protection worked?

I did´t get that info, unfortunately. There´s no way I can know if there was a kill attempt. Hence, only scum knows it.

I don´t see any flaw in your analisis, peace, but maybe you should give the probabilities you think to each action of each scenario.

[lasaiki]

Mastin, how come can you spent 99% of your posts to defend yourself and 1% to say you´re voting peace? Are you total sure peace is scum? We´re in lylo! I don´t see that you´re scumhunting anything.

Why peace seems worried about who is scum, manho seems worried about who´s scum, I also had my doubts about who´s scum. And you are just defending from anyyone who sees a slighltly posibility that you, we don´t know yet, could be scum?

Another issue

. I´m about to think that a NK did take place yesterday. Let´s analize the two scenarios for day 4:

• With a NK: 3-people-endgame. 2 townies and a scum (2 to lynch). Townie one misvotes townie two. Scum hammers and win.
  
  Without a NK: 4-people-endgame. 3 townies and a scum (3 to lynch). Townie one misvotes townie two. Scum can´t hammer. Need two misvotes, not only one. Big problem for scum to win. Scum is clearly in disadvantage if chose no-NK.

Scum had to NK to get rid of a townie and win easy. In a 3 people endgame just need someone who believe his claim. Otherwise in the 4 people endgame scenario, this is not enough. He needs to convince two more townies and all three have to vote for the third townie. Take into account that in this scenario the decision has to be taken unanimously.

Therefore, I guess scum won´t afford such complexity for the endgame. Hence his aim would have been to NK someone. This would clear manho, as I´d have protected him succesfully.

[lasaiki]

Mastin where is your case against peace? I just see a pair of points against him but nothing more. And given that you defended peace so strongly on day 2 to say he is town, this suddently change is super suspicious. I haven´t seen you worried about having to change your mind from peace-super town to peace-scum. You then stated peace was town. Now you say peace is scum. How´s that? A townie would have been very upset to see that an always protown likely player could be scum!.

This is very diferent from what Peace has done. He was aware of the difficulties of an endgame. He tried to understand the facts, he tried to check all posibilities, he was really worried about what to vote to not blow up the game at the end, which means a lot of concern from his part to do the right thing, etc...


Peace is right here:

Peace wrote:
I had voted for Mastin before and he had 2 votes. If Manho was scum he could have won by hammering at the time but didn't.

Scum just want to hammer no matter what.

[lasaiki]

I still think that peace has 10% of being scum and mastin 90%. However I tried to reread the highlights of the game looking for clues. I´ve read Amished but I found nothing definite.. But I was rereading peace and mastin and I found this:

I am townee...but I know I'll be lynched..if not I'll be used by the mafia til you lynch me.

This is sadly true,

Only scum can be dead sure of who´s town. A townie will never say "this is true" with that confidence.

I just have a doubt. Why do you use townee instead of townie? I´m not native English, I don´t know if this could matter. It´s like if you haven´t a townie role so you haven´t read it when pm´d at the beginning of the game.



Anyway these two seems quite definite to me:

So, instead of voting for me you are voting for a claimed power role? TBH..I'd rather you vote for me than Mastin.

If you guys are choosing between me and Mastin based on the given information..I'm the better lynch here.

This was day 3. We had already lynched amished. Still alive Manho, alduskkel, peace, mastin and me. Peace believed mastin´s claim. Aldusskel and I were voting for mastin. Peace-scum wouldn´t have offered to be lynched. Never, how so? There was only one scum left. If we lynched him he would lose. And he said it twice! A very very risky bid to me.


@Manho

There is a reason for mastin-scum to NK you, Manho. This is to let alive peace and me. Peace would have voted me and I had doubts between peace and mastin but not you. So I could have voted peace.

[lasaiki]

EBWOP: I meant bet, not bid...

(A very very risky bet to me)

[lasaiki]

mastin thought peace was the doctor,

No, just before the night he thought you could be the doctor. That´s why scum went after you, because a doctor can´t defend him/herself. The point is to NK the doctor to assure a successfull NK and don´t have such difficulties to win the game next day.

Peace, please unvote. ok, you´ve showed your cards, but we still don´t have a deadline, so don´t talk non-sense, I don´t wan´t to lose the game at this stage.

[lasaiki]

Actually even with a deadline you don´t need to do this.

[lasaiki]

However, imo, mastin thought peace to be the doctor.

well, whatever...
What do you think about the move that peace made? Before voting tell us your thoughts please.

[lasaiki]

Ok, Mastin, I´ve listen to you. You keep spending time assuring who you are but I see no worry from you about who could be scum.

And you´re not the only one in this game. I´ve also listened to Peace and I´ve also listened to Manho. Now, gathering all together, I did my analisis and made up my mind. My vote where it has to be.

[lasaiki]

scum-mastin's best play at night 3 should be nk'ing the doctor, who should be peace. and peace is less scummy than lasaiki, so scum-mastin should have nk'ed peace.

I disagree.. Regardless who the doctor is, you manho are the most townish player in this game, so scum (whoever is) went after you. This is more important than finding the doctor. Because of this:

With manho´s nightkill: I had to decide between peace and mastin. I had doubts. Mislynch is likely.
With peace´s nightkill: I had to decide between manho and mastin. No doubts. I´d vote mastin.

[lasaiki]

Sorry for double posting

as for the self-voting move by peace, i can interpret it as a gambit by scum to get my support. it may be pro-town as to solve the deadlock with 2 votes each on peace and mastin, but

the unvote after 2 posts make

it scummy and more like a gambit.

I don´t see this either. It´s not after two post but after 4 long days without any activity hardly.

Posted:

Mon Jul 13

, 2009 8:18 am Post subject: 867

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Manho let's make this easy unvote Vote peacesells

Posted:

Fri Jul 17,

2009 1:09 pm Post subject: 875

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well..mastin hasn't posted for 9 days now. It is amazing how many mafia games I have completed on other sites since this one began.

unvote

vote Mastin

And regarding the self vote, that is,

as for the self-voting move by peace, i can interpret it as a gambit by scum to get my support

I´d take also into account that he offered

twice

to be lynched instead of mastin. So it´s not only an isolated gambit, which, you´re right, can be interpreted as so, but it´s the third time he would have done the same. Furthermore, he did it first on day 3, where there was no pressure for scum to win.

[lasaiki]

Mastin
is having a birthday!

Happy birthday Mastin!

[lasaiki]

Good that´s over! Finally! I couldn´t take any more waiting so long. And of course, nice that we won!!

I enjoyed a lot playing this game with you all. Thanks OGML for the modding, it was very pleasant and suitable for the pace of the game. And nice flavor at the end, but before reading it I couldn´t help looking below, just in case

I was having fun all the time even when arguing with mastin. But I agree with Ald, your play, mastin, is really exhausting. It´s imposible to follow your points when there´s a need to reread you. However I suspected you not because of your rhetoric but your play. Pity that Alduskkel was lynched because he was also reluctant to believe your claim.

This is the first time I played as a doctor. Not sure if I did it well at the end when protecting manho. I guess that succesful proteccion gave us the town a safety "net". So it was less likely to commit a fatal mislych. But it become a handicap to end the game. I was unsure regarding peace but as long as the game moved forward it became more and more clear that he had to be town.

On the other hand I didn´t want to out myself until the end. I knew I wouln´t be a NK choice so I´d try all succesfull protections as I could being in the shadows. But now that I see it, claiming was the best I could have done. I´m glad that my claim was belivable for both town and "cop". The best thing is that mastin needed me, the doc, for his alibi! He couldn´t deny it. That saved us, I think.

[lasaiki]

I am curious about what others thought of my self vote?

I almost had a heart attack!

I mean, in this 4 people endgame there was nothing to do but to vote all 3 for the same 4th person. So it was relatively easy for town to win the game as scum couldn´t hammer a misvote, as usually happens in a 3-people endgame scenario. I thought it was just a matter of time that manho would decide to vote mastin (we would have talked among us and decided to do that). But when I saw your selfvote there, uf, I wasn´t sure that manho would take the right decision, so I saw how the game was put in a risk...

I know you did it desperately to convice manho that you were town, but there´s something in our psycology that makes us think what we want to think. So if manho really believed mastin claim no matter what, then everything you would do was going to be twisted in order to support his believe. That´s the gambit stuff he said you did it as scum, etc..

In conclusion, I don´t think is a good idea to do that again (I´m also aware that you as me were too tired of this day so it´s very understandable...). But it would have been a better idea to ask manho which were EXACTLY his doubts around you (as he was deciding between you and mastin) and then refute his suspicions. I saw at the end that your attitude was more townish than mastin´s, and to be sure I tried to confirm my suspicions and I told that to manho. But it´s manho´s "homework" to check those points by his own. With our help, of course.

[lasaiki]

my doubt of mastin grew when he praise peace's and my play. it was scummy to praise other's play to get support.

I didn´t know this. You should have shared it with us. There´s no point in keeping your thoughts in an endgame if you´re town. We need to discuss every little suspicious trace and see what´s valid and what´s not.

[lasaiki]

i'm keeping it to keep mastin

from knowing that he is under my suspicion.

What for?