Newbie 996 - Starting Small [Game Over]

[Parama]

Hello, I'm your friendly neighborhood SE, which means I am more experienced than a newbie and less useful than an IC.
Except I'm more than qualified to be an IC, I'm just too lazy to do it! d(''d)

vote: DMSIS

for being a IC and because I've played with him before.

Oops, I made a hypocrisy.

FoS: Parama

for hypocrisy.

[Parama]

Lurking is not a scumtell. Active lurking is, though.

[Parama]

Though I guess in a newbie game, lurking is more of a scumtell than in normal games. Newer scum players tend to like staying under the radar by not posting. I still don't think looking to deep into lurking is as good as finding real scumtells.

[Parama]

I don't think there's one particular scumtell that's the most definite, since everyone plays different. Hypocrisy is one I look for a lot, and another good one is looking for players who will push a wagon without getting on it themselves.

[Parama]

Lol, I just noticed that error. My brain said SE and my fingers said IC.

[Parama]

Active-lurking is posting without saying anything, aka all posts don't contain anything similar to actual game content.

[Parama]

Hey 583, how ya doing? Mind telling us who your mafia partner is?

At this stage in the game? No, thanks.

This looks oddly like a scum claim.

[Parama]

Moose, what are you talking about?
The records in my sig are my win/loss records if that's what you're talking about. Because it looks like I do have an 11% better win record as scum.

[Parama]

Parama

- Why a FoS on yourself for the begining of the game? Is that a method to cover tracks and point the finger elsewhere, or just a lighthearted way of starting the game? You're definition of active-lurking seems to fit our angry moose player. Alot of posts just asking questions and saying hello. How does that fit?

FoS self - I love screwing around in RVS d(''d)
moose is asking questions, like you said - and questions generate content. Some of the questions are fairly pointless, but every question asked is another chance to generate content for the the town. So no, he isn't active lurking.

[Parama]

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

[Parama]

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

[Parama]

I understand, but people don't really like wading through pointless posts to find the posts worth reading. I know I certainly don't.

[Parama]

Let's analyze the wagon so far:

I am getting angry at blackmist.

unvote: vote:Blackmist

---> Black Mist hasn't posted yet, so moose thinks that voting him for "lurking" is his best shot
Cliquey proxied his vote to moose and doesn't really have valid reasoning to be on the wagon

DMSIS decided to stop bussing his scumbuddy to vote for a ML wagon that was previous made of 2 votes without logic behind them and is now made of 3 votes without logic behind them.

I like my vote though because jim is DMSIS's buddy, more than likely.

FoS: DMSIS

though.

[Parama]

@Doubtful: My reasons for voting jim over DMSIS:
jim makes accusations like active lurking without really understanding the context - not putting effort into his accusations.
when called out for doing this^, he tries to appeal to the town by backing off on the attack and switching to a new target - the appeal is what bothers me more, because it means he's trying to look good in the eyes of the town, something a townie has no incentive to do.

I don't have the interest to put together a case on but I think they're likely scum together because of their interactions - their attacks on each other seem halfhearted, and they both back off fairly quickly. It looks more like a distancing maneuver than actual attacks on each other.

I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS - from their posting it seems as if DMSIS is just telling jim he has to scumhunt, repetitively.

The way you put it here makes it sound worse than it is, to be honest. He's attacking jim for not scumhunting, but he's also prodding jim to post content at the same time - trying to stop him from garnering suspicion by taking away the cause of the suspicion. And jim is responding to these prods - he's posted more content than ever now that he's been told to do it. There's a definite relationship between the two though it's not something you pick up on first read.

What is with the "baked" things you all are talking about, so waht, i smoke pot, get over it. I get drunk too, it's fun.

I really don't think anyone needs to know this.

DOCSHOTTYGUNGUY : Planning ahead is SUPER DUPER scum. You are 100% my number 1 target.

...

VOTE: BLACK MIST

Can you explain why you say the first line and then end up voting Black Mist in the same post besides the reusing an overused and usually wrong phrase?

Doubtful: I went back to the mist because imo WHY ME = FRY ME. When people say stuff like "why vote for me?" they are preparing their defense. only scum need to defend themselves.

1. Goddammit I hate that phrase so much - I'd never seen it here until now but it's always used on EpicMafia dear god
2. Haven't you ever seen a lynch pushed without ANY logic behind it? That's what the Black Mist lynch has been thus far - there is no logic behind the votes thus far, and nothing for Black Mist to defend against
3. You're saying here that a good townie shouldn't try to defend themselves and should let themselves be lynched. I'll let you figure out the obvious flaw in that strategy. Townies should defend themselves so that they don't get lynched and can instead push lynches on those who they believe to be scum.

Some questions:
Moose: Can you provide examples of your reasons #2 and #3 against Black Mist?

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

chaodck: Can you at least give some form of content? Even a scumpick or two with brief reasoning would be better than not posting at all. The town needs everyone to participate and scumhunt otherwise the scum could end up leading the town around and jumping on easy targets to push mislynches - obviously not good for the town.

[Parama]

#2: To be honest I'm somewhat guilty of the same thing myself, but it's more a case of having two scum suspects but only being able to lynch one player a day. In a game with 2 scum, having 2 scum suspects isn't a big deal.

#3: ...you have been spamming a lot, aside from the valid scumhunting you're doing. I don't think Black Mist ever said that the scumhunting you're doing IS spam, though (I'm not even sure if that line was aimed at you, rereading it). I personally think you should cut down the irrelevant non-game chatter, to be honest. Yes, mafia is a social game, but when you clog up threads with pointless posting then it makes the game harder for everyone else.

P.S. shoot me a friend invite on EM, same username as here (Parama)

[Parama]

Spam IMO. Don't even see the relevancy.
Also, asking someone where they live isn't scumhunting, but it DOES make you a creepy stalker. *flees*

[Parama]

I still think Moose is a bit scummy and he and Doc are too buddy-buddy with each other.

I think you're more buddy-buddy with Doc than moose is, to be honest.

DMSIS's vote hop is really bad, though. It looks like he's trying to jump of the BM wagon now that it's breaking down and jump onto another easy target with weak reasoning. I think it warrants an

unvote, vote: DMSIS

.

ZOMG HE PUT HIM AT L-1!!! *shock and awe*
Yes, L-1. Don't hammer lest ye face my wrath.

[Parama]

Wait for a defense and a claim, please.

[Parama]

Things I was going to say:
I was going to say, "Doubtful, why did you make this huge wall without voting but merely HoS'ing" but then I saw that you were already voting for moose
I was going to say, "DMSIS, you buddied back with moose" but then that argument happened
I was going to say, "Johannes, your 'tell' on Cliquey isn't really a scumtell at all" but then Cliquey said that himself
I was going to say, "I should make a post in this thread right now" but then I realized that I didn't have much to say :/

[Parama]

unvote, vote: jimfinn

He's just jumping on any wagon that forms now :/

I don't really see the moose case - as far as I can tell, it's just because he's buddying with DMSIS, and I don't consider buddying to be a very strong tell :/

[Parama]

Hey DMSIS try reading the thread.

Spoiler: speaking of my fights

About the first paragraph of the post. No it's not, we are slowly coming out of an RVS and getting to know the people you are playing with better builds a better game.
And about the second paragraph, I am an SE in a newby game sorry if I'm a bit coachy, but I have play quite a few games. Also what is wrong with being very town(BTW no one has ever voted me for that)? If I "appear"
too town then why emidietly jump to the conclusion that I am scum? How about you scum hunt yourself instead of jumping on other peoples ideas and piggy backing your way to a mislynch?
You have already shown me four big scum tells/slips man.
1. Misrepping someone and continueing to do it.
2. Wagoning with no reason other then agreeing with what some one else said.
3. Trying to push the he is too town thing.
4. Jumping on one person, but right as someone has a lukritive idea about something someone else is doing that is a bit fishy, jumping right onto them.

Now, I don't like this post. It doesn't feel like "too town" (which is fallacious thought), it feels very much like an over reaction. A strong arm to start a wagon with Parama for something that is much of a non-issue. This post sits poorly for me, most of these aren't really scum tells, and the ones that are have been rephrased multiple times so to inflate the case without substance. Couple that with the fact that DMSIS did some of the exact "big scum tells" that he accused Jim of.


I also can't understand the constant attacking of the newbcard. If he is a newbie, he's a newbie thats the way it goes. If jim never added anything and just talked about how he can't get into the game being a newbie... then yeah. But he is easing into it the game, the newbcard attack is BAD 2 days into a game.

we can deal with jim tomorow

Setting up lynches, wow thats pro-town :rolleyes:

Spoiler: Holy WIFOM Batman!... wait, I've used that already

Also I'd like to know why moose hasn't voted me

Remember his threatened vote would have been the hammer on you. He had not posted between that threat post and this one I'm quoting. Additionally two people have unvoted because they don't want a lynch so quickly. Without the hammering vote, do you really see him voting?
I don't really want to quote and point out all your instances of WIFOM about you being voted on, but there are more. Rather I'd move on.

But why is no one looking into Cliquey?

This is a bad deflection. One, it is a deflection, you aren't defending yourself, you are just trying to put blame on someone else. Secondly you aren't even making an argument, you are appealing to someone else to make an argument for you and to take pressure off of you. That is just horrendous, your later accusation of active lurking is just idiotic. The fact that I'm keeping this very much game related -- fewer posts with more content per post00 does not make my activity lurking and in no way means I'm staying away from talking about important issues.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

[Parama]

I'm sure enough that I won't rest until both are dead. In the unlikely event (5%? 3%?) that you aren't both scum, there's almost 100% chance that at least one of you is.

Yes, those statistics are BSed, but they're a good way of describing how sure I am about this.

[Parama]

chaodck isn't even posting so

[Parama]

Parama: Why jim? Specifically, where is he buddying DMSIS? Feels town.

He isn't, actually. They're attempting to distance but when you have to give each other advice during the game day it's pretty hard to successfully distance <_<

Several people (3, now) have said that they find your posting style difficult to read, and that is anti-town. Anti-town behavior is either incompetence or pro-scum, and you're the IC.

I don't understand why people can't stand the spoiler tags. CLICK BUTTON. READ WORDS. CLICK BUTTON AGAIN. CLICK NEXT BUTTON. READ WORDS. CLICK BUTTON AGAIN. ETC.

Spoiler: Something to keep an eye on

I'm not going to manufacture scumtells, because that would a) distract everyone from the real issues and

b) make me look bad.

This is a minor newb-scum tell. Townies are much less worried about looking bad and dying than finding the scum, for clear reasons

Lazy, so just going to +1 this.

Also, the moose wagon reeks. For starters, both scum are on it.

[Parama]

Information Instead of Analysis: The Movie!
Presented by jimfinn Studios.

[Parama]

@Parama: the italicized text is analysis in my last post, the non-italicized is information. Most of the italicized text is analyzing possible scum or town motivations for DMSIS actions.

Then leave out everything else. We don't want a paraphrase of everything DMSIS has said. We want why it's important. Most of the post is boring information.
Hint: Don't do a complete PBPA, ever. Only reference important quotes. Otherwise people will yell at you, like i'm yelling at you.

Doesn't matter because that DMSIS quickhammer makes jim even more obvious than before, which is hard to believe.

[Parama]

Vote counts reset at the start of each day, plus he only has 3 votes on him right now regardless.

[Parama]

vote: jimfinn

Obvious scum is obvious.

[Parama]

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

[Parama]

Oh good so jim is lying scum.

Need a votecount before I vote him, want to make sure it doesn't end the day and all. Discussion = good.

[Parama]

In case anyone needs it, here is game theory as to why jim is confirmed scum:
Mafia wouldn't cc the claim because if they cced cop and the cop was lynched, they're be next in line.
PLUS, in the two setups that cop would be possible, one has no doctor, making the cop NKable, and the other has a roleblocker, rendering the cop useless.
So mafia have no reason to cc cop, thus Johannes is town here. And jim is lying scum who needs to be lynched.
L-1 eh? I'll drop the hammer once discussion has died down, I guess. Info = good stuff man.

[Parama]

Well FMPOV the final scum has to be in this group:
{smargaret, Doubtful, Cliquey}

Out of those 3, I'd probably eliminate Cliquey (hopefully not a fatal mistake) but out of Doubtful and smargaret I'm not sure :/
I'm probably going to reread soon and post some thoughts after that. Hopefully I can find the last scum during my reread.

[Parama]

dear god, self hammers.

v_v

[Parama]

1 scum left = d(''d)

Dead cop = q(''q)

V/LA until the weekend.

Sorry, really busy with schoolwork this week. Will try to reread and post something over the weekend. Finding the other scum shouldn't be too terribly difficult now, I'd think.

~V/LA noted.

[Parama]

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

Or voting scum for a "serious" vote that has no logical basis behind it.

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

He attempted to make an argument against DMSIS without providing any evidence - we can't check for ourselves if what jim is saying is true, because we don't know what he's referencing. I hate hate hate when people don't provide evidence.
The second paragraph seems like an excuse to not scumhunt during D1.

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

No, calling out scum for doing scummy things. You can't call someone scummy without telling them why, can you? Plus, I don't remember if he did, but if a scum reacts to a post like this by trying to do what they should've done earlier, they're obviously trying to appease the town. Which makes them look worse.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

I don't respond to every post in the thread, and I had already given my reasons as to why I thought they were scum together anyways.

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

Who the hell leaves their vote on a claimed power role, though?

List (scummiest at top, townest at bottom - self-excluded)
Cliquey
Parama
Johannes

Doubtful
Chaodck

put here because they haven't done anything pro=town or anti=town, so impossible to get a good read.

I love how he left doubtful in the null zone.

This is brilliant. My earlier suspicions confirmed - scum is probably in Doubtful/smargaret.

Also, Smargaret needs to stop fighting my battles.

[Parama]

Parama:

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

Or voting scum for a "serious" vote that has no logical basis behind it.

I understand your vote: just not the way you state it. It feels like you are trying to get jimfinn to unvote moose, and then vote someone else with a real reason - by saying that his reason was null (which it indeed was) and then allowing him to switch targets.

In which scenario, he is trying to appease the town, which makes himself look worse.
Protip: Townies have no reason to appease anyone

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

He attempted to make an argument against DMSIS without providing any evidence - we can't check for ourselves if what jim is saying is true, because we don't know what he's referencing. I hate hate hate when people don't provide evidence.
The second paragraph seems like an excuse to not scumhunt during D1.

Well... jim is trying to make an argument on the basis that "X is too town, so we should lynch X", which is actually quite common in F2F, AFAIK.
On the second paragraph: I interpret it as more him saying that he needs time to look at all the cases, accepting the value of D1 scumhunting. To me jim seems quite logical in this post.

Too Townie To Be Town Fallacy is terrible logic always, but that wasn't his argument anyways <.<
Meh, I guess you could take the 2nd paragraph like that.

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

No, calling out scum for doing scummy things. You can't call someone scummy without telling them why, can you? Plus, I don't remember if he did, but if a scum reacts to a post like this by trying to do what they should've done earlier, they're obviously trying to appease the town. Which makes them look worse.

Well, if you're town, made an analysis, and forgot to vote in the end, what would you do when asked for a vote? Yes, he did vote according to what you said about moose. He could just be being F2F'ish again and think voting someone = tunneling on them.

It's not that he didn't switch his vote immediately during the post - I can chalk that one up to bad memory. The real issue is that he noticed his lack of unvote earlier, corrected that mistake, yet STILL refused to vote for his #1 suspect. If I had forgotten a vote at the end of a case, and someone pointed this out, I'd probably vote, yes. jim realized his mistake BEFORE I pointed it out, yet did not decide to fix it. That's the difference between what you're describing and what actually happened.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

I don't respond to every post in the thread, and I had already given my reasons as to why I thought they were scum together anyways.

At that point in time the only interaction between jim and DMSIS was DMSIS voting jim for his scumtells and jim voting DMSIS for... no real reason. Can't exactly form a "buddy" relationship based on that alone. I understand your individual concerns on both of them, it's the link that I think is lacking in your argument at that time

jim made a half-hearted PBPA on DMSIS and went from deciding he was scummy to deciding he was not and unvoted him.
DMSIS unvoted jim right when he saw that jim was leading in votes, switching to BM.

See what I'm seeing?
also gtg more later

[Parama]

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

Who the hell leaves their vote on a claimed power role, though?

I thought you said that you were 97% sure DMSIS and jim were scumbuddies, and 100% sure that one of them was scum? Also, even if there's no cc I wouldn't trust jim, and question him further. I unvoted because I didn't want scum to quickhammer, when you unvoted that wasn't a problem, so there was none.

It is anti-town to leave a vote on a claimed power role, especially when the town has room for error remaining. There's still 1 other scum even if the claim is fake. The town should NOT listen to the PR claim if the player is still suspicious enough to be distrusted (scum fakeclaim could lead town off a scum lynch onto a town one if town lets them) and the town should try to come to the most logical conclusion on who's scum.
The only issue is the doc/cop combo claim in the all-vanilla setup, but bleeeh that's non-applicable.

This isn't my argument, it's a theory argument, and I'll go more in-depth with it postgame if you want me to.

And that list?

More WIFOM. Like I say, when jim flips scum you can't trust what he says. Could easily be trying to set me/chaodck/smargaret up with that list so that other people will reference it. WIFOM.

I hate how you're dismissing a lot of things as WIFOM, but I guess I can see where you're coming from. It's not completely null just because of the WIFOM possibility, however.

[Parama]

Parama: I understand what you mean, dismissing things as WIFOM, but all of the evidence against me is basically putting DMSIS and then jimfinn at L-1 and WIFOM created by jim's hinting towards me being scum, as far as I can interpret.

To be quite honest I'm not interested in the case against you.

OK. jim hints towards relationship with me. I deny any with him. He turns out scum. So? What do you conclude?

WIFOM.

If town doesn't have room for error remaining, then you know that the person you voted who claimed PR is scum (lack of quickhammer)

UNLESS both scum are already on the wagon. If a townie is on the wagon then yeah

There's still one other scum if the claim is fake. Yes. So?

So it means that we can find that other scum without taking this risk of lynching a PR claim.

The town should NOT listen to the PR claim if the player is still suspicious enough to be distrusted. I thought you were 100% sure jim was scum? And we can still discuss when claimed PR is at L-2...

I did not plan on following any logic he presented - where did I say I would? I waited for a PR cc before anything else.

The town should try to come to the most logical conclusion on who's scum. We did, and we would've done the same without the unvote. It just seemed that you were taking your chances, hoping that there's no cc and saving jim as a result if your scum, and a useless move if you're town.

YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT. THIS IS NOT

MY

ARGUMENT. THIS IS GAME THEORY.

Yes, doc/cop combo claim is non-applicable, because there hasn't been a doc claim yet!

I was not talking about this game, but a theoretical setup.

Now you're just trying too hard to turn everything I say into something scummy.

[Parama]

Spoiler: Parama

To be quite honest I'm not interested in the case against you.

So which case are you interested in?

Like I said, I need to reread & post notes after that. I'll see who looks scummiest after that. I kinda have a feeling of where my vote will be going but I just want to make sure.

[Parama]

Ain't no doc here.

[Parama]

ah god I've been busy recently, gonna reread and post some comments tonight hopefully. Sorry about lack of posting :/ I would've prodded myself if I was modding this <.<

[Parama]

Don't like how Doubtful just RVSes Cliquey... without any RVS reason. Maybe scared that any RVS reason would make him look bad?
Cliquey's vote proxy strikes me as town, especially considering the one the vote was proxied to is now confirmed town.
Bleh, noticing that everyone jim voted against is dead now. Well, except moose. Hard to take much from that x_x
chaodck really didn't say a damn thing did he. Ugh. His 1st post is RVS stuff and his 2nd (and last) post is promising content but not delivering on it.
118 by jim can't really be dismissed as WIFOM. I'd think he'd put his buddy either in town-zone or neutral, but that eliminates nobody now <.<
Don't see why Cliquey unvoted DMSIS an hour after declaring that the DMSIS wagon was good. L-1 issues maybe? Meh.
Doubtful moving from a DMSIS wagon can be taken two ways - townie changing suspicions honestly, or scum seeing that a wagon is going to crumble and attempting to start a new one and maybe come back to the old one later on in the game.
But the former seems more likely IMO. Meh.
Ok smargaret exists now...
arguments against Cliquey: lurking (+meta), use of spoiler tags
arguments against Doubtful: ...none, says he feels Doubtful is town.
The comparison to her currents reads - currently feels Doubtful is the remaining scum. What changed?
Oh yeah the line in 247 that Cliquey pointed out in 250 looks pretty bad on smarg too.
Oh my god, 256. That looks really bad looking back. Speaking for other players to try to push a lynch. Eek.
Don't like how jim was "following" Doubtful, either. But there IS a WIFOM element there :/
271 by smarg strikes me as true confusion, though it could be either town or scum confusion. But it doesn't sit well with me.
276 by smarg looks like backing out of giving content for a bad reason.
Smargaret says she will push a Doubtful wagon if DMSIS flips town... don't remember if this happened or not, something to look back on later.
321 by Cliquey - "hypothesis test" seems euphemistic to me. Really careful language, which is bugging me. Not sure what to make of it though.
348 by smarg - accuses Doubtful of bussing BEFORE we have a jim flip (he was obv, but STILL.) At least it IS consistent with what he said earlier, but consistency isn't everything - for example, being consistently scummy and wrong will not get people to think you're town.
356 by smarg - Are you telling us why you wouldn't kill him if you were mafia. Maybe, just maybe, you're scum and you just told us exactly why Cliquey survived the night?
368 by smarg - what exactly are you responding to here? I need an answer to this, because I'm thinking one of two things, one of which makes your post look bad, the other of which makes it look null.
373 by smarg - "Cliquey bothers me because Mist was killed. I'm not ready to eliminate him yet, but I'm more suspicious of Doubtful." - What are you trying to say here? I have no clue.
381 by Doubtful - No. Just no. That is EXTREME WIFOM TERRITORY. Combine that with your recent affinity for calling out everything WIFOM and we have a nice little contradiction there, good sir.
383 by smarg - it sounds like you know what the setup is, if you're assuming both a doc and a cop. Don't see any townie knowing the setup at that point. Unless, of course, you are the doctor. Which you have claimed you are not. Then again, nobody is, so that kinda discredits this.
401 by smarg - agree with the point made by the first two quotes, but the third quote response - "Very, very interesting." - is complete fluff. If you find something suspicious there, tell us what it is, and don't try to make everyone else look for suspicious things in a post that may or may not even exist.
403 by moose - I have noticed a lot of these things before, and I will admit that when you put them altogether, it could be seen as coaching while attempting to distance. However, I feel I myself am guilty of some similar actions (with good intentions, of course) so I'm not really sure it's lynchable material.
409 by smarg - trying to appear helpful without being such, reposting exactly what moose just said in an abridged form
414 - already responded to this in full
419 - this isn't really something that can be written off as WIFOM, as I said earlier... but it doesn't tell us that much regardless, in hindsight. Since everyone alive is in the townish or null zone.
Doubtful: There are things that can be dismissed as WIFOM, and things that seem like WIFOM but aren't if you write off everything as WIFOM, then you have nothing solid to go on and you'll never be able to find the truly scummy things. Pro-tip: Nothing is definite in mafia except for flips.
444 by smarg - pro-town sounding plan, but I do feel it gives smarg a back door - if Doubtful is lynched and flips town, smarg can try to argue "WAIT! I'm not scum, lynching me would cause us to lose - lynch <insert playername here>". And since the general consensus at the time of posting seemed to be towards a Doubtful lynch, this scenario had a very real possibility of playing out.
451 by moose - Devil's Advocate here, but: N1 - the IC could be left alive so people could make logical fallacies like the one you're presenting <_<. N2 - there was a cop claim alive, which is always priority #1 for mafia to kill and/or block. Figured that one would be kinda obvious.
454 by smarg - parroting moose, casting suspicion on as many players as possible - hey look, common scum tactics
456 by moose - I refuse. I do not like vote proxies. As confirmed town, you need your personal opinion to be the strongest. I cannot speak for you, nor do I wish to.
457 - Yo. Did you read this post? Kthx.

I should probably link the post references, but bleh, I'm lazy. Just read the thread from the beginning along with these notes to see what I'm talking about on each of these.

Anyways, the final consensus:
Smargaret is scum. Gutsy scum, yes, but scum nonetheless. Concerned with self-appearance, backs out of content on a moment's notice, seems to have inside information concerning alignments and the setup, parroting a confirmed townie to try and look helpful, and other minor things that I've already been over. This is just a nice tl;dr.

Doubtful COULD be scum, but half the case involves the posts that look like coaching. And I'm not sure if Doubtful really had bad intentions with those posts. The dismissal of many things as WIFOM while also bring up a major WIFOM argument himself is what bugs me the most. There's really a lot less there than there is against smargaret.

Cliquey seems town, partly due to the vote proxy onto the now-confirmed townie, and some good arguments for scumpicks. On a side note, I'm pretty sure the 3 other players have all accused Cliquey on the basis that "Oh Cliquey is an IC and isn't doing anything, MUST BE SCUM!" which I feel is weak logic.

So I guess it's time to put my money where my mouth is,

vote: smargaret

Let's end this. Today, preferably.

[Parama]

If you guys want to ask me any questions, I'll be around for the next 10 minutes (if you can read through Pink Floyd - The Wall that fast <.<). Running a prod check in my game, then I'll be off for the night. I have homework that I should've started 2 hours ago and I want to have some of it done tonight at the very least. So... yeah.

[Parama]

1. That my opinion of Doubtful has changed: We got more information, and I felt his behavior on the DMSIS lynch was scummy. Hence, I changed my position to reflect the new information. That doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

Fair enough. Wasn't one of my major arguments, just something to note.

2. That I don't want to look bad: I addressed this already. I want scum to get lynched, and I know I'm clear. Thus I don't want people to have a reason to go after me. I haven't been doing a very good job of that this game, and we can afford a mislynch now (since it's obvious that Doubtful is scum), so if it will make you feel better to lynch me along with him, go right ahead. But then lynch the real scum.

...not sure what to make of this. I'm not feeling as sure about this now... but agh that might be what you're trying to do here which is why I can't change my read based on it. Stupid WIFOM.

3. 256 was Doubtful. Just wanted to clarify that.

Yes I know. I did not say it was you.
Figures that I'd forget to put a name for at least one post number though

4. 271 is confusion about the mechanics of forum mafia.

Crazy Parama notion = smargaret wanted to know if moose would be lynched the next day due to having 4 votes on him at the start of the day, knowing it was a mislynch.
But I decided that that's just kinda stupid hence null.

5. Backing out of posting content: DMSIS had posted something (claiming RB) that would totally change my reads on jim and doubtful. I didn't want to post something about them based on inaccurate information, that could be dragged out of context. And I am pushing a Doubtful wagon - see where my vote is? There was the cop claim/counterclaim Day 2 before I logged on, and, as you said, obvscum was obvious, so jim got lynched Day 2. But now I'm pushing for Doubtful.

Just because he claimed something doesn't mean he's telling the truth. You should have posted what you were going to post, on the basis of: "IF DMSIS flips town, THEN: <content>, OTHERWISE ignore this."

6. That I accused Doubtful of bussing scum before we knew jim was scum - well, yeah, he was obvious. Maybe I was tunneling a bit on Doubtful. But Johannes's claim was way, way more believable. Also, I'm a she, not a he.

I called you a he once? Bleh, I know you're a she <.<
Anyways, yes jim was obvious, but it bugs me that you were 100% sure on his alignment before he flipped, enough to throw a bussing accusation out.

7. Hypothesizing mafia actions: Yes, I'm saying why I wouldn't kill Cliquey if I were scum. It's the same reason I would kill Moose tonight, and Johannes last night. It's game theory - scum kills power roles and obvtown, and leaves the town players who look scummy alive to be lynched during the day. Although, it raises the question of why you (Parama) survived night 1, given that you were the towniest player that day.

Wow, thanks for injecting more WIFOM into my game.
Actually, I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems like appealing to me, but at the same time trying to deflect suspicion onto me with WIFOM.
I've never seen that before :/

8. I was replying to Moose asking me what I wanted to do Day 2. I either wanted to pressure you (because you hadn't - and haven't - been pressured) and it was obvious that one of the scum was in the set of {jim, Johannes}. I wanted to lynch one of them, but not after taking more time to look at you and everyone else, because we had time to do more scumhunting.

So you wanted to pressure me due to too town fallacy? Meh. Not sure what to make of that either :/

9. My translation of 373: I am suspicious of Cliquey because Mist died N1, and it seems like that is the sort of thing that would benefit Cliquey. However, I find Doubtful to be more suspicious than Cliquey, and I would rather examine him. Does that help?

Why would it benefit Cliquey to kill Black Mist N1?

10: That I apparently knew the setup: I assumed jim was being entirely truthful when he instructed his partner to block Moose, and thus, there's a RB, and thus, there's a doctor. I didn't want to take the chance that, say, you were the doctor and have you protect someone other than Johannes on the WIFOM that mafia wouldn't kill a cop because the doc would protect the cop.

Why would you assume a mafia is telling the truth, though?

11: The "Very, very interesting" - something struck me as "off" about that quote. I wasn't sure what (looking back, probably that he was trying to bus jim), but it struck me as off. Posting it and seeing if other people have the same reaction isn't reasonable?

I don't like it because it leaves people to try and find what's suspicious even if there's nothing there in the first place. And, "If you try hard enough, you can make anything into a scumtell" so...

12: Addressed in 411/412

Okay, but he didn't really have time to answer - it had only been 5 minutes.

13: 444/the mislynch plan: So lynch me today, and Doubtful tomorrow. I've made my case for why he's guilty, you can afford a mislynch, and then I don't have the backdoor. Seriously. I fully believe it's Doubtful. I'm town, but if the only way you're going to look at anyone else is to see how I flip, lynch me.

Again, I don't know what to make of this. All I do know is that it doesn't change my mind.

14: That I'm parroting Moose: Actually, I

corrected

Moose - I pointed out that Cliquey had, in fact, posted Day 3. I fail to see how that's parroting. And I left my main suspicions/my vote right where they were, with Doubtful.

You parroted the "not contributing much" part and correcting the mistake is a very minor thing.

[Parama]

1. Smargaret
2. Doubtful

TBQH I have little to nothing more to say about this game. I've made my case, I'm almost positive smargaret is the last scum. Not really much else to say :/

[Parama]

Cliquey - Do you think Smargaret will flip scum or town?

[Parama]

Uuuuuuuuugh.
I want to say it's Doubtful, but I still want a response from Cliquey on the question I posed before nightfall - Did you think smargaret would flip town or scum when you hammered?

[Parama]

Um, we seem to be lacking discussion, Doubtful, and Cliquey in this thread.

[Parama]

If you think that, you should be voting me. Of course you'd be wrong in your vote, but then again if you're scum like I'm thinking you are, it shouldn't really matter too much.
I'm still waiting from a response from Cliquey, though, and I'd really like to hear it before I make my final decision.

[Parama]

Um, okay, I don't feel like drawing this out without having any discussion.

vote: Doubtful

Let's hope this isn't wrong, though I don't think it is.

[Parama]

I never said I was 100% convinced. If I had been 100% convinced, there'd be no need for hesitation. I just felt it was much more likely that you were scum.
If you think I'm scum, why are you questioning my town read on Cliquey?

[Parama]

I have not clue what to make of this .-.
I'd still rather lynch Doubtful over Cliquey, so my vote's going to stay, but...
Eugh. This is going to be a real mess, I can tell.

[Parama]

unvote

Actually, screw it. I want to see if Cliquey's still even here.

MOD: I believe he is due for a prod

<.<

[Parama]

Sorry, I've been busy with life and with other games. Will try to read over this discussion tonight.

[Parama]

In Day 2 you made the first post, and tried to avoid accusing people. In Day 3 you barely posted (not a scumtell by itself) but made really no opinions on anyone.

Actually, I think Cliquey said he needed to reread or something.

You went with the smargaret bandwagon, saying that you don't feel about her but feel everyone else to be pro-town.

If you feel everyone else is pro-town, PoE says that the person you don't have a town read on is scum, no?
I mean, admittedly Cliquey never did give an opinion of Smarg, but...

You did object to other people's play, but most of those comments that you say felt scummy were directed at... Moose.

???

You are obviously trying too hard to not have attention brought onto you, and right now your lack of opinion makes it able for you to support any accusation at all.
Well at the start of the day Cliquey did post some opinions <.<

ISO:

Post 457: What's the point of your "opinion" and "strategic" doing nothing?

You're trying to avoid opinion.

I don't think you even read this post if you think it lacks opinion...

Post 442: You make an opinion on smargaret, trying to avoid actively showing it by voting!

...
I don't even know.

Now... you said basically nothing about 5 players and spent more time talking about my posting habits than talking about one of the most active wagons. Wow, thats pretty bad... especially because you exonerate DMSIS due to moose and I and really, you've explained why 0 of the things I am doing are scummy. Different, but not scummy.

This is exactly what you do, except you talk about how we have to deal with your posting habit. Your logic is good, but you aren't helping town win by giving us your opinion.

Giving opinions doesn't help town win?

The wording in this entire post just seems... confused, almost. Like, trying to push suspicion without even knowing what you're saying.

Most of these points I bring up aren't completely scummy, but they are points nonetheless.

...
What.

I like Cliquey's responses. Especially:

In your paragraph you set up saying that I have opinions, then claim that I have no opinion whatsoever-- can you make up your mind?

Yeah, this is pretty much it - Doubtful is calling out scummy things without really knowing what he's saying. And that leads to contradictions.

The posts I mentioned are basically your most opinionated posts. You didn't vote in them, went along with several wagons, and for jimfinn waited until others piled up on him before saying that you find him scummy.

The posts you mentioned, you said they were lacking in opinion, right? Uh...

However.
I would like to see Cliquey give his current opinions - who do you think is scum, and why?

[Parama]

Tag fail.

Can you fix that please, mod?

~Fixed, or at least I think that's how you intended it...

[Parama]

...
Okay, this is just taking way too long now.

vote: Doubtful

[Parama]

Figures. Not like I had much of a reason to believe Cliquey was scum anyways.

[Parama]

IE, you didn't plan on this scenario and now have no means to justify your vote.

[Parama]

Cool, we win.

[Parama]

Only for you