Newbie 996 - Starting Small [Game Over]

[Doubtful]

First, hello to all - I'm Doubtful - this is my 2nd game on MS.

VOTE: Cliquey

As for lynching lurkers, I would only do this when there's no better option. And by RVS + scumhunting, we can get a better option.

I mean, if someone made multiple scummy posts then started to lurk, there could be a case against them, but otherwise... I still say the optimal lynch is the person that seems most scummy by posting alone.


Preview:

Biggest scumtell? Lying. A close second is joining a wagon and restating reasons already stated, especially when the reasons aren't very strong.

[Doubtful]

Lynching Lurkers is very dumb!!!! Active lurking is scummy, but not being busy

I am sorry, perhaps I use different terminology then you do. "lurking" to me is posting once a day, not adding any real thoughts and basically trying to slide under the radar. Is that what you call active lurking?

Yes, I'd call that active lurking. Oh, what is "maf"?

[Doubtful]

Hey!! A little introduction first.

I'm chaodck, or shorter chao, it's a name I invented when I was like 12 y.o. (13 years ago), and I have stayed with it, since it is unique. I'm chilean (GMT -4), and I work from M-F and sometimes the weekends, so I can post at least once a day, usually at this hour, unless I'm late with work, but when it happens I ask for V/LA.

So, to vote...

First, hello to all - I'm Doubtful - this is my 2nd game on MS.

VOTE: Doubtful, because you can't be doubtful in this game, you have to be certain about your choices.

Can you propose an alternative screen name?

[Doubtful]

Let's analyze the wagon so far:

I am getting angry at blackmist.

unvote: vote:Blackmist

---> Black Mist hasn't posted yet, so moose thinks that voting him for "lurking" is his best shot
Cliquey proxied his vote to moose and doesn't really have valid reasoning to be on the wagon

DMSIS decided to stop bussing his scumbuddy to vote for a ML wagon that was previous made of 2 votes without logic behind them and is now made of 3 votes without logic behind them.

I like my vote though because jim is DMSIS's buddy, more than likely.

FoS: DMSIS

though.

Unvote

I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS - from their posting it seems as if DMSIS is just telling jim he has to scumhunt, repetitively.

I don't see how jim is scummy other than not willing to scumhunt, but it seems as if DMSIS is voting w/o reason, and pushing the suspicion on Mist far too far. No explanation given, similar to the two other votes on Mist - moose with his RVS vote and then Cliquey with her proxy vote. Moose has stated that he is suspicious of Mist, but still doesn't give a real explanation of why. Instead, he asks Cliquey why Mist's posts are scummy. All in all, I think DMSIS has no reason to push a RVS vote that doesn't include valid arguments to L-2.

Parama, what are your reasons on jimfinn over DMSIS?

DMSIS: "we can deal with jim tomorrow"
So you still think jim is scummy, but instead you wagon on (in your opinion) the next scummiest person. Change of opinion due to influence of others much?

Moose: Sorry for afk'ing a lot, but usually I just keep this window open while doing other things.

And I agree with the spamming thing going on, I mean it helps get information, but nothing substantial and no need for 15 posts having nothing do to with the game...

VOTE: DMSIS

[Doubtful]

Wow... really talker crew here. Sorry to say I don't have enough time to post today, I'm barely catching up with the reading, only posting to say I'm alive and not to be prodded. Tomorrow I'll read through and make a contributing post.

I look forward to hearing why you are scum.

I look forward to hearing why you are trying to kill your scumbuddy.

[Doubtful]

Doubtful, why so serious? I attack people for any reason, too active-too many caps- whatevere. you gotta attack in this game. I like to bitch and chit-chat to do that.

If you're talking about the "Super afker" thing, yeah. I was just explaining why, I thought you construed it as lurking.

Also,

DOCSHOTTYGUNGUY : Planning ahead is SUPER DUPER scum. You are 100% my number 1 target.


VOTE: BLACK MIST

Why vote Black Mist when DMSIS is your #1 target? Was it a typo?

I noticed "I don't see how jim is scummy other than not willing to scumhunt" in doubtful's post...... wtf doubtful. scumhunting is our ONLY weapon!!!!!! they have guns, we have our brains. we better use them or our entire town is dead.

Yes, I agree, but keep in mind that when playing face-to-face, scumhunting is usually by gut instinct. I honestly think jimfinn is just adapting to the online version, where analysis is necessary. Speaking of which,

jimfinn: What do you think about the joke scum claim by Johannes?
Who do you think is lurking, if any people? (active lurking or lurking)
You are voting for DMSIS.

DMSIS - has made satisfactory responses to my questions now, and my suspicion is far less.

from your most recent post.

If you think your suspicion is far less, why still vote?

You made a good summary of events happening, but what's your take on them?

So my preference is Cliquey and than if mafia Moose, and if she's not than Jimfinn.

@Black Mist: What does jimfinn have to do with Cliquey being town? And if Cliquey's mafia, she might give her vote to Moose to create WIFOM about whether Moose is mafia or not. All in all, I don't quite understand this statement. Could you please elaborate?

[Doubtful]

A moose getting angry, that's not good. Run away!! Just kidding. Sorry about that folks. RL trouble with someone and engry drinks with friends have kept me from my computer. But anyways I'm here and I have a few things to say. Starting with, the name may sounds like something a guy would use, but I AM A GIRL. Secondly, I've only played one other game here, and we lost our mod so I never got a real free for scumtells or anything of the such. However, I did notice some things about this game.

Parama

- Why a FoS on yourself for the begining of the game? Is that a method to cover tracks and point the finger elsewhere, or just a lighthearted way of starting the game? You're definition of active-lurking seems to fit our angry moose player. Alot of posts just asking questions and saying hello. How does that fit?

Moose

- Metagaming(I believe) isn't really s'pose to influence a person's voting, so I don't see why an apology was needed for that. Also, getting angry or voting to get me talk for me was a big no-no, if a person is honestly away(which you can see when a person last visited) doesn't seem like good sportmenship.

Johannes583

- The pressing of a person innocent or not seems like a good way to get the person frusterated, but also a interesting way to get some type of confession. But even than, pressing should only be done while a person is certain that the person being pressed is definately mafia. Otherwise it seems it gives actual mafia a chance to start a wagon on the person. Make sense?

Cliquey

- not really anything suspicious...expect why the spoiler tags? I find it rather annoying, because if I were to miss a single one, I could miss an important peice of information without actually realizing that I have. Is it clever or a distracting way to post information so people get confused?

With all this in mind, I will not vote yet. I wish to see the response to my post before making my choice on where my vote will go.

Post 46 above:

Black Mist, how would someone answer the questions you asked Cliquey? Now on second thoughts, your vote on Cliquey doesn't make sense at all. You did not request anything for Cliquey to defend, why would she defend herself?

[Doubtful]

EBWOP:

So my preference is Cliquey and than if mafia Moose, and if she's not than Jimfinn.

@Black Mist: What does jimfinn have to do with Cliquey being town? And if Cliquey's mafia, she might give her vote to Moose to create WIFOM about whether Moose is mafia or not. All in all, I don't quite understand this statement. Could you please elaborate?

You still haven't answered my question. What does jimfinn have to do with Cliquey being town? As I said, if Cliquey is scum, she could be giving her vote to moose to create WIFOM. I understand your accusation on Cliquey, just not your followup of "Moose if scum, jimfinn if town"

I understand your secondary suspicion of jimfinn. If Cliquey is indeed scum, however, you have no other information on Moose. (Cliquey could be purposely linking with a townie to put suspicion on them, hence leading to a WIFOM argument)

[Doubtful]

EBWOP2:

Black Mist, how would someone answer the questions you asked Cliquey? Now on second thoughts, your vote on Cliquey doesn't make sense at all. You did not request anything for Cliquey to defend, why would she defend herself?

I mean, your logic behind your vote doesn't make sense. Part of your suspicion is understandable, but the other isn't. (Proxy vote to moose is understandable, but not "very little defense")

[Doubtful]

Ah sorry Black Mist - I was only looking at your first post because you mentioned it somewhere in your vote.

jimfinn: Do you have any conclusions about any of the players in your PBPA? I mean, summary is good, but conclusions are everything.

[Doubtful]

He is all but getting lynched so let's just take it slow until he has time to respond. If doc is the mafia scum, what's our next step? I am rereading trying to figure who could be his

life partner

mafia partner.

If he is town I already have two scum in mind that I shall be zeroing in on for the rest of the game.

Black Mist, the difference between what you were doing and what Moose IS doing right now is that you just stated: Lynch X. If town, lynch Y. If scum, lynch Z, without any real reason behind why you think Y and Z have to do with X.

What Moose is doing, he said he will be analyzing player again and deciding what to do in the case that DMSIS is indeed lynched. He didn't state any people in particular, so he doesn't need to provide reasons yet. Right now, all you can say is that he thinks DMSIS is scum.

[Doubtful]

Yes, I've been waiting for DMSIS to post...

Meanwhile, my thoughts about Johannes and rolefishing ("Non-vanilla townie").

Moose: if you honestly think DMSIS is going to die,

I am talking about how I plan to reread during the night and scum hunt. I don't see how this is a scumtell or claiming to be a pr.

then scum hunt now. Don't tell people that you are GOING to scumhunt, DO scumhunt. I mean, you can do it during the 72 hours at night, but what's the difference between doing it now and later? Plus, you won't get to post your opinions out if you do indeed die during the night, so you'll be a much more valuable asset to town (if you are indeed town) if you scumhunt now. (considering both cases for DMSIS' role)

FoS: Moose

However, I think that Johannes is pushing it a bit far by stating this fact.

We can't always assume there will be powerrolles in every game, but we know there will always be mafia. Assuming random selection of role distribution, the ratio of mafia to powerroles is 8:4. So if you really do have a good reason to reread the thread at night, the odds state that it is most likely because you are mafia looking for a victim.

What you have right now is only a minor suspicion that moose has influence on night actions. The third sentence of this statement is not true - rereads should be done frequently when one is stumped. And please give better reasons on why you think moose has power. (other than trying to get posts to analyze at night)

[Doubtful]

moose - if you are determined that DMSIS is scum, why would you wait until he speaks?

It isn't like he is going to give any indication of his scummate if he indeed is scum...

Also, guess what guys, I am not getting night killed. I've been fos'd and look more scummy than Pamela Anderson at a christian revival.

So yeah, take it as you will, but I WILL be here tomorrow. Unless of course jonhess583 holds a grudge.

Now other mafia might kill you to make it seem as if Johannes583 did the killing? See the WIFOM?
You can never say that you aren't going to be nk-d. (unless you are mafia)

UNVOTE

VOTE: moose200x

I'm still suspicious of DMSIS for sure, but I think moose is being overconfident and overeager right now.

[Doubtful]

DMSIS, the question is: Why did your vote Black Mist to put her at L-2 on your 24th post and say "we can deal with jim tomorrow"

You had no reason, it seemed like an opportunistic vote to lynch Black Mist.

More and more likely seems the scumpair of DMSIS and moose200x, with DMSIS telling moose not to buddy so much and then voting moose, followed by a complete change of opinion in moose from thinking that DMSIS was town to scum.

So i first put first to post YAY!!
But Parama beat me to it
Any way

Vote:Moose

And I am an SE I am one game away from IC

Alright, let's get the first !OMGUS! vote outta the way.

VOTE:Drmyshottyizsik

Also, if you look back at my other games I apologized for my actions and have come bacl to mafiascum a changed man.

On the first votes of the RVS, moose OMGUS's drmyshottyizsik, which now seems like an immediate attempt to bus.

LyLo - doesn't that mean that if we don't lynch scum we lose? I.E. 2 scum left out of 5 players- We lynch a townie it's game over but if we lynch a scumster we can still win.

I agree with cliquey's thought on dr. shotty asking what scum tells do we look for. That screams maf.

Another attempt by moose200x to bus DMSIS...

First, I know that's a lie SicShotster. I've seen that avatar at other forums, are you suggestion other people have "stole" your avatar?

And are you insinuating I cannot understand what dr my shotty iz sik stands for?

This post almost sounds like they know each other, or at least they sound familiar.

Woah woah woah cowboy. Nobody except you would think i'm "active lurking" I have been very active and trying to engage in conversations the entire game. Secondly, I am not big into sportsmanship (at least not in this game) I do regret calling that a kid a B**** and I feel bad I ruined a game or two here. But still, I play to win and if that hurts someones feelings, Oh well.

Thirdly- If I realized you were a Canadian chick I'd of never of gotten mad at you I love me some Canadian women! Something bout fresh snowfall and their cute smiles drives me insane.

Have you read any of Doc Shotty's posts? Do you feel he has been pro or anti town so far?

moose asks for Black Mist's opinion on DMSIS. Possibly because he wants to know what the town thinks to plan how he should distance from DMSIS.

Shootmcdoctorguy- Pot head. Everyday toker. No clue as to which side he is on. Read the joahnes583 post for more.

My top 3 suspects atm are: Drmyshottyizsic, Johannes583 and Jimfinn.

Those two quotes were from the same post, post #53. Contradiction, probably continuing trying to bus from Black Mist's reaction of blank tell:

As for Doc, haven't read into his post all that much yet.

Very nice post. You've pointed out that Jim is in deep deep trouble early in the game. You say the good ol' doc claims to be town but doesn't really have anyway to back that up.

Directed at Black Mist. Continues to have an opinion of scumminess on DMSIS, which could be honest suspicion from town.

I want the IC to come here and explain why that post of yours just screamed "OMG I AM SCUM"

Directed at DMSIS. Moose probably trying to bus, but couldn't find solid reasoning against DMSIS this time?

DMSIS - has made satisfactory responses to my questions now, and my suspicion is far less. I had forgotten that he was an SE and could be expected to act as such. He changes his vote to mist in order to try to lynch a player he sees as most scummy. He has done some buddying with moose, which still keeps the red flag up.

Post 118. jimfinn mentions that DMSIS is buddying with moose, nothing suspicious. BUT, immediately after, and as DMSIS' next post,

Unvote
Vote Moose

WOW!!!! I just re read the thread un high, and damn I was dumb. MOOSE!!! DON'T BUDDY SO HARD!!!
Ok so I vote moose because of how hard he trys to be my friend.

It seems like DMSIS is trying NOT to buddy now, now that jimfinn raised the point about them two buddying.

Where is good ole, doc shotty?

Erm... waiting for DMSIS to post a defense...

The reason I said "LYNCH" and not wagon is because I am going to hammer the DOC after he posts. I am only waiting to lynch him until he speaks. So, mr. cliquey, do you understand my wording?

Also, guess what guys, I am not getting night killed. I've been fos'd and look more scummy than Pamela Anderson at a christian revival.

So yeah, take it as you will, but I WILL be here tomorrow. Unless of course jonhess583 holds a grudge.

And now says w/e the defense, he'll still vote to lynch. Could be as if he were waiting for DMSIS to make him sound less scummy, but forgot about saying that in his most recent post.

HoS: Moose, DMSIS

[Doubtful]

EBWOP: I know the mini-analysis is from a biased opinion, but you two have been basically trying to buddy or get each other killed throughout the whole game, based on the town's opinions. Almost every post of both of you have been about the other. There definitely seems to be something going on.

[Doubtful]

First of all, voting for no reason is suspicious.

"If you are scum and you buddy with someone, but they figure you out, what would you do other than then saying they are scum and trying to pass the buck?"

So are you saying that you are scum? It does seem like you are talking about yourself here... buddying with Moose...

[Doubtful]

EBWOP: Oops, hit the wrong button...

Next, about the vote on Moose, you gave no reason either... until I made a point, which you agreed to.

Preview:

The problem is, you buddied with Moose just as much as he did with you. And you bussed Moose just as much as he did you as well.

[Doubtful]

If you are

town

and you buddy with someone, but they figure out, what would you do other than then saying they are scum and trying to pass the buck?

A LOT! If you think scum can only do what you said, town would obviously not do that...

And I think your quotes that you want to apply to Moose are applying to you as ewll.

[Doubtful]

I know he buddied you. Hence why I suspect him.

But you buddied him as well, that's the point.

Upgrade HoS to BoS: DMSIS, moose.

[Doubtful]

But he stopped the buddying? Think about it. I could have played along with Moose and mislynched mist. I think that is what scum would do instead of bussing a partner, and stopping a mislynch

^^^
WIFOM

You can't defend yourself with "what scum would do", you can only defend yourself with "what you did do".

Also, mist was never at L-1. The only votes casted on Mist were from you and moose... other than Cliquey's proxy vote.

You realized that there wasn't a viable lynch on mist, thus moose started buddying with you. At the same time, jimfinn posted analysis of you buddying moose, so you now vote him.

Scum had no wagon to push at any time... concerning anyone other than moose or DMSIS. So you can't really make that statement, even if it were true. It plain doesn't apply to context.

[Doubtful]

DMSIS, the two real scum WOULDN'T have hammered.

That would give them away quite easily...

One scum hammer would give away scum easily as well. 1 scum dead for 1 town is BAD for scum, from a 7/2 it turns into a 4/1 within the matter of two days, which is a WORSE situation for scum. (especially if PR's are still around)

[Doubtful]

EBWOP: As for Cliquey, not much can be said about her vs. this whole thing. She hasn't been making many attacking points, just pointing out flaws in points made by others (which is, yes, a very important thing as well). She seems content with the idea of voting DMSIS, and has found DMSIS suspicious. There's not many signs of bussing or buddying... I will ISO Cliquey's posts eventually, though, and you should as well.

[Doubtful]

Johannes: So you think that who is scum?

DMSIS: I don't find her active lurking. Just seems busy, so posts rarely.

[Doubtful]

MOD: Why am I listed twice in the votecount?

~VoteCount fixed and should be accurate.

[Doubtful]

I don't know? Maybe because he thinks it'll look scummy if he votes for you? Or he'll have to make up a horrible reason like he did before (asking the IC to explain why a post is scummy) because he can't think of anything else? Or he's still trying to mislynch Black Mist even though there's no evidence?

[Doubtful]

As I said, I find you and moose equally scummy. Right now, Moose more so than you because of him contradicting way too much,

[Doubtful]

Gah, by equally scummy I meant "close to equally scummy"

You're both so scummy in my eyes the little details don't seem to make a difference.

[Doubtful]

Yeah yeah, what more do you want me to say? Doubtful or Blackmist said they'd hammer Docsickshotgun too, nobody says anything. Oh well, I don't know what to say. This game frustrates me so much. People make such stupid ideas and join bandwagons over stupid stuff, you cant win the game on your own. My downfall is trying to do to much to win on my own. I am pretty sure that if doc is NOT mafia, this is game over town.

Oh well, if you have questions, feel free to ask them.

When did I say I'd hammer DMSIS?

I was the one that stated the case for voting for DMSIS, I voted him before it even got to L-2!

[Doubtful]

I've just read the two pages of overnight exchange between doubtful and DMSIS with a few others' posts thrown in; I've said before and will say again that the previous buddying interactions between moose and DMSIS make me convinced that one or both of them are scum. DMSIS seems to be making an attempt right now to distance himself from the buddying, and moose's willingness to hammer after DMSIS posted (noted earlier) makes me wonder if he is scum trying to have an excuse to force a mislynch through. Therefore, I will currently UNVOTE: DMSIS VOTE: moose. Even though I think both are very suspicious, moose needs to do a lot more explaining right now than DMSIS does.

Ok, i am not going to flip out but your logic is so fucking fail. Look at it.


You think me or dmsis are both or at least once scum.

You think i'm scum cuz i'm going to hammer dmsis and force a mislynch.

How does that make sense? you were voting for him too! AND I FUCKING waited to hammer. You jumped on his bandwagon just like your jumping on mine. God, that is so scummy. But i dont even think your scum. which scares the crap outta me. you've done nothing as town in this game but you will slide under the radar, doing nothing special yet somehow be alive at the end of the game.

EBWOP: Also, why'd you wait to hammer?

[Doubtful]

Moose - why are you still voting Black Mist if you think that DMSIS is more suspicious?

[Doubtful]

"I think Jim and Moose are scum"

Now it is your turn to give a reason. Has jim and moose done anything that makes them seem "related"?

[Doubtful]

No, but why would scum want to seem related???????
Because then if one is caught so is the other, thats why they buddy with town.

More WIFOM. Town have no one to relate to, so you can't use that excuse. Though scum try not to seem related, they will at points in time naturally, unintentionally. Without citing this relation you can't have a valid statement of "they are both scum". You might have suspicious vibes for both of them, but the scum pairing, no.

Moose, first is the problem with you saying "you will hammer". There was pressure enough on doc, that was unnecessary. Plus, it is both unorthodox and unfitting to say that you would hammer no matter what.

Second is, yes your buddying with DMSIS. I have addressed this already.

Third, I don't understand who you think is suspicious. You are voting for Black Mist. Do you have any posts of Black Mist you need to address? If so, address them. Otherwise, why are you still voting Black Mist? It seems as if you are trying to accuse DMSIS without a vote, as a bussing attempt...

[Doubtful]

The first time DMSIS was put at L-1 was because Parama put him there for wagon hopping. Though after that moose showed eager in hammering DMSIS...

[Doubtful]

OK. Three people are voting DMSIS, jimfinn and I both think DMSIS is scum with moose, and smargaret posted

I don’t think he’s scummy enough to lynch today, given Moose and Cliquey.

So that's 6 people thinking DMSIS is scummy or slightly scummy. Majority.

UNVOTE, VOTE:DMSIS

[Doubtful]

Also 2 people also know that I am town

Who?

You're one of them, who's the other.

[Doubtful]

Yes. Considering the reactions of other people, 5 people seem to be sure / almost sure DMSIS is scum (Parama, Cliquey, me, you, and moose). Then, smargaret is suspicious of DMSIS as well, and the other two people are not voting right now... so a DMSIS lynch would make sense.

[Doubtful]

OK - I put DMSIS at L-1 to see who would change their vote from moose to DMSIS. I encouraged a hammer - and jim was the one who provided it, WITHOUT even letting DMSIS claim / defend. (DMSIS did get a claim in... but on the post before that jim had shown great eagerness to hammer) Plus,

Ok then, if Doubtful is scum playing me into this, I'm probably really going to regret this, but I pretty much trust Doubtful right now so UNVOTE: VOTE: DMSIS

He trusts me? Since when was I confirmed town? Only time someone would completely trust someone else is if that other person is confirmed town, and also made a very convincing argument against the other person. I might be scum playing you into this, but jimfinn is obviously scum anyways, because of a bad excuse to hammer and not letting the defendant speak as well.

[Doubtful]

maybe so you can make that arguement.
Tehehe jk I'm a mafia role blocker

What townie would say this after they are lynched?

[Doubtful]

Problem is: jimfinn, you made a ISO on DMSIS, yet you didn't vote for him in the end. Only after I voted for him, asking someone to hammer, did you vote. If you voted DMSIS there, I would NOT have hammered, to give more time to defend and ask more questions. I had questions in mind, but just wanted to try that to see who would fall for the bait... and you did.

ALSO: jimfinn HOW do you know that DMSIS isn't a goon fakeclaiming RB?

He could be just doing so so that an excited cop (knowing there's a doc and no rb) would claim night 1 to prevent death...

Since you are SURE we lynched the RB, I have even more scummy vibes on you...

[Doubtful]

EBWOP (preview)

Sorry for double posting,

but townies won't claim scum after they are lynched in twilight.

[Doubtful]

True point.

But if DMSIS is town, then jimfinn is probably scum using me as an excuse to hammer. Once again, like I say, town won't hammer based on someone else's post without asking questions or letting others ask questions.

FoS: jimfinn.

[Doubtful]

jimfinn, if RB is killed day 1, cop should claim, because they have doctor protecting them and thus get free inspections until the doctor dies.

Preview: You did an ISO on DMSIS. How'd you get that moose was scum from DMSIS's ISO?

[Doubtful]

DMSIS, good call on there. I'll have to agree with you on PR's not claiming.

[Doubtful]

Just noticed this quote:

If DMSIS flips scum, I'll need to go back and look at how people interacted with him, especially Moose. I haven't thought about that possibility much today. It will also depend on who dies tonight.

Don't you think that me or jimfinn might be bussing? I honestly think that jimfinn is obv. bussing... (asking me if he should hammer..., trusting someone that isn't a confirmed townie and put DMSIS at L-1 with a very weak reason (only DMSIS caught on, more than one person has majority of people suspicious of them))

[Doubtful]

moose200x, keep in mind that he could be a mafia goon fakeclaiming...

Also, if there's a cop, DON'T claim until you get a guilty or can guarantee a win by yourself.

[Doubtful]

I'm pumped as well. I didn't even expect a lynch this quickly... but jimfinn looks so obv right now...

[Doubtful]

DMSIS - why did you claim RB?

[Doubtful]

DMSIS:

Why am I scum?

(WHY ME = FRY ME) is not a valid scumtell.

[Doubtful]

Stop speculating on NK. I consider that spam.

[Doubtful]

OK DMSIS:

Either you both are dumb scum, or mafia. But since Jim is for sure scum, then so are you.

Both scum or scum?

Also, I said that I put you at L-1 and encouraged hammering to see who would hammer. I didn't provide a good reason on purpose, so that the person who would hammer would be obv. scum.

Yes, I accept your understanding that jim and I are tied together in a lot of the votes. I honestly thought that you and moose were scummates until the hammer... which was a big surprise to me, to be honest. That's why I was putting pressure on both of you.

So you think jimfinn and I. I agree, the L-1 vote could be considered scummy (against me), and the hammer is super-scummy (against jim), but where else have jim and I "slipped" and can be related to each other?

Preview:

tc moose.

[Doubtful]

VOTE: Jimfinn

I've said a lot about this matter in twilight - summerizing:

Wagon hopping between Moose and DMSIS.

Trying to make points based off of other people's actions (Black Mist's action that moose was active lurking, as an example)

Pulling the noob card when it comes to analysis.

For your most to least suspicious list, you said stuff without reasoning provided by your analysis.

Hammering DMSIS, or even considering it without a claim first.

Trying to buddy with many people (DMSIS and me)

[Doubtful]

Oh yeah, Jimfinn, please claim. And if you're VT, PLEASE PLEASE do not claim a power role.

[Doubtful]

Unvote

[Doubtful]

jimfinn, maybe it is because you were so obvious that Johannes didn't even want to investigate you, considering how sure he was of you being scum?

VOTE: Jimfinn

I still think jimfinn is scummy. I unvoted only to prevent a quickhammer and thus a 1-1 scum/cop trade if jimfinn is innocent.

Note: If you are town, don't hammer this...

[Doubtful]

And if you really were the cop, what would ever have made you investigate moose? If I were not the cop, I would certainly have been investigated by whoever was, especially after that hammer.

EBWOP: Forgot to get to this post.

So? If you think your action was scummy and deserved a cop investigation, then why did you do it?

[Doubtful]

jimfinn, a cop lurking would probably be trying to slip under the radar, like scum do. That thus is a null-tell.

[Doubtful]

jimfinn: What are you trying to get at with this question?

And depends on who I'm mafia with... all this time I've been NOT playing to the scum win-condition, so I really don't know.

PREVIEW: Do you think anyone will say "Black Mist"?

[Doubtful]

Townies don't play so that they all die and let the two mafia win... (in reply to Moose)

jimfinn: You're not, just wondering about the motives. Like... if my partner is V/LA at least I know who they are! Of course I would nk Doubtful, because I know that he is confirmed town

[Doubtful]

*** Wait, that didn't make sense at all... if I were scum I know everyone's confirmed town...

I would probably NK moose200x (to frame Doubtful and jimfinn, with DMSIS saying that jimfinn and Doubtful are the scum, and encouraging moose to go after them)

Either that, or smargaret, because unlike Chaodck she isn't lurking... and scum would prefer a lurker to none.

[Doubtful]

Wait... answer your own question please...

[Doubtful]

I would like to think about who could be the second mafia member before we end Day 2. I am suspicious of Doubtful - I think that he realized how scummy jim's hammer made him look, and then tried to distance himself by leading the push against jim.

Why would jim's hammer make me look scummy? I put DMSIS at L-1 and then encouraged a hammer with a really weak excuse (hmm... 5 people are slightly suspicious = Auto-kill) to see who would fall for the hammer. And jimfinn did. I only unvoted jimfinn because I didn't want a quickhammer of scum on the cop, putting the game into 3-player LYLO without any real suspicions.

And about bussing jimfinn, since he is rather obvious in my eyes, I vote for him as it benefits the town. You can't let a townie attack someone they are almost sure is scum and then call bussing...

Yes, you can't eliminate the possibility of me being scum with me voting for jimfinn. You can't make a better point either though.

[Doubtful]

EBWOP (preview)

Nice self-hammer jimfinn...

I have a feeling you calling your partner to block someone probably means that you have a roleblocker (considering your inability to consider scum lying in twilight, demonstrated by post 286.

I would still treat it as a null-tell to the setup though...

[Doubtful]

Note that Johannes and jimfinn could both be goons, taking a risk in predicting the existence of a doctor, then both claiming cop, and blaming "not drawing the nk" due to WIFOM that Johannes stated...

Just saying that we can't completely rule Johannes out. (it is very unlikely, but still possible...)

[Doubtful]

smargaret is right: Plus an added advantage is that if jimfinn shows up goon, and johannes dies, we know that there's no doc (unless mafia tried to nk Johannes and somehow found the doc to rb), so it'll make it harder for mafia to use the setup to their advantage.

[Doubtful]

I still have a town read on Parama. Upon rereading, I am inclined to think my suspicion of Cliquey was based on the tags. Especially with his meta, I feel like Cliquey is likely town and bored, and trying to make the game more interesting.

Cliquey, you said Day 1 that you thought some of the votes on the DMSIS wagon were poorly founded, which ones?

Why would jim's hammer make me look scummy? I put DMSIS at L-1 and then encouraged a hammer with a really weak excuse (hmm... 5 people are slightly suspicious = Auto-kill) to see who would fall for the hammer. And jimfinn did. I only unvoted jimfinn because I didn't want a quickhammer of scum on the cop, putting the game into 3-player LYLO without any real suspicions.

So putting DMSIS at L-1 and encouraging a hammer was a scumhunting tactic...

DMSIS, the two real scum WOULDN'T have hammered.

That would give them away quite easily...

One scum hammer would give away scum easily as well. 1 scum dead for 1 town is BAD for scum, from a 7/2 it turns into a 4/1 within the matter of two days, which is a WORSE situation for scum. (especially if PR's are still around)

... but scum shouldn't hammer. It looks to me like he was coaching his partner and hoping to get a townie to hammer DMSIS, so there'd be an easy mislynch Day 2.

jim seemed really eager to vote for DMSIS and moose, I was testing him in particular - his wagon hopping between DMSIS and moose was exceptionally bad, I thought when I encouraged a hammer I hoped jim-scum would vote immediately, while jim-town would probably second-think it a bit... trusting me and all.

Just noticed this quote:

If DMSIS flips scum, I'll need to go back and look at how people interacted with him, especially Moose. I haven't thought about that possibility much today. It will also depend on who dies tonight.

Don't you think that me or jimfinn might be bussing? I honestly think that jimfinn is obv. bussing... (asking me if he should hammer..., trusting someone that isn't a confirmed townie and put DMSIS at L-1 with a very weak reason (only DMSIS caught on, more than one person has majority of people suspicious of them))

Very, very interesting.

I mean, I understand where you're coming from, with jimfinn listening to me so much and me saying to "distance". jim could be trying to set me up though... seeing that I encouraged something pro-scum by accident (I was ALMOST convinced that scumpair was one of the following: moose-DMSIS and jim-DMSIS...)

Oh yeah, Jimfinn, please claim. And if you're VT, PLEASE PLEASE do not claim a power role.

More coaching.

Thus,

VOTE: Doubtful

I said that because if jimfinn was indeed TOWN, and he indeed believed in LYNCHING ALL claimed VT's, he would try to claim pr so that he won't be lynched. Say if I were indeed scum. Wouldn't jim tell me about claiming something stupid like cop at night? I mean, I would have to avoid all this if he and I were indeed scum. I was just making sure that jimfinn didn't misclaim if indeed he was town.

[Doubtful]

Just to clairfy I knew it was doubtful before she did.

Doubtful's post #131- "jimfinn: Do you have any conclusions about any of the players in your PBPA? I mean, summary is good, but conclusions are everything."
Jim's post #135-" If you read my PBPA a little more closely, I explain why I think moose and Doc are the scummiest, closely followed by Mist. For now I'm going to put my VOTE: moose, but it could easily be changed to the other two if convincing arguments are made. I think Moose's odd bantering style could very easily be a scum trying to avoid the duel sins of lurking and appearing too stresses."
Jim's post #263-"Ok then, if Doubtful is scum playing me into this, I'm probably really going to regret this, but I pretty much trust Doubtful right now so UNVOTE: VOTE: DMSIS" --- so wait, you've iso'd DMSIS, you've talked about him being scum for most of the game then you go out and say this shit? What sense does that make?
Jims post #265- " You have acted scummy all game. We all thought you were. Doubtful told me to hammer you. I did" Did he not just say he was concerned "doubtful is scum playing me "?
Look at this little play they've worked out in their scum meetings.
325: Doubtful writes " Oh yeah, Jimfinn, please claim. And if you're VT, PLEASE PLEASE do not claim a power role."
326: stupid fail post by jim claiming cop or something
327: OMFG UNVOTE doubtful, hurry!

vote: doubtful

Most of your quotes are about jim looking scummy. #265 is irrevelent because jim was trying to put suspicion on me, slight distancing only. 325: I've explained. 326: I agree. 327: If jimfinn were indeed town, scum could sacrifice one of their own to put game into 3 player LYLO with nothing to be based out of. I mean, if jim claims cop after I posted 325, we'd all know that he's cop or scum...

[Doubtful]

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

So I think Parama.

[Doubtful]

VOTE: Parama


Making a case on chaodck/smargaret. Can't really say much abou chaodck, I never saw him online and probably he flaked. I'm getting a town read on smargaret, elaborating next post.

[Doubtful]

ISO on smargaret:

#1: null
#2: null (want to prolong day... no points.)
#3: Complains about spoiler tag, seems like an honest complaint. Vote on moose explained with good logic - (reasons explained before, spamming, voting illogically, saying that WHY ME = FRY ME = Lynch town is true)
#4: No info - continues complaint on Cliquey when it is obvious that it is just his playing style this game - slight scumtell.
#5: null
#6: Repeats points to respond to, emphasizes responses. (pro-town)
#7: null
#8: null
#9: I still don't quite see how DMSIS could be town after claiming Mafia RB... though you make a good point from other context, and keep an open mind about things.
#10: Explain.
#11: Explains new suspicions.
#12: Posts reasons against jimfinn, prompting discussion in case of mislynch on jimfinn and overall benefit to town: considers possibility that I may be bussing. (pro-town)
#13: Nightkill speculation, creates WIFOM about it. Anti-town.
#14: Asks jimfinn for clarification on question.
#15: null
#16: Continues making points about me, and my relation with jim.

If I haven't made an adequate response to this yet, in my opinion jim's hammer has nothing to do with me, other than me being very suspicious of him

#17: null...
#18: null.

Please elaborate your town-read on Parama

#19: Makes a good point about doc action. (null)
#20: Trying to continue discussion in twilight (pro-town)
#21: Post suspecting me.
#22: null
#23: DUH!
#24: Give me some time please
#25: null
#26: I don't understand.

All in all, I have mixed opinions about smargaret, leaning pro-town though.

[Doubtful]

I believe he was also the first to push a case against jimfinn, way back on day 1. Now, it's possible that he was doing some sort of elaborate bussing scheme, but if I were scum and bussing my partner, I wouldn't do it day 1 and I wouldn't be pushing a case against him when nobody's suspicious and there are other people with significant wagons.

WIFOM.

I agree that he has provided well-reasoned scumhunting, I just don't like his prompting of jim consistantly, and his sureness in himself when he points out DMSIS and jim (trying to gain town points for being so sure, almost tunneling on both of them only. Also, my gut doesn't say so.

Preview: Moose, jimfinn is scum. He can do w/e he wants, you can't say anything about me from it. He could easily be framing me. Meanwhile, focus on me and tell me how I implied outer knowledge about who the scum are with my posts and my hints towards jim being related.

[Doubtful]

Oh, and moose your point about copying what I've said is null. In that post, as I have already mentioned, jim basically summarized for everyone.

[Doubtful]

moose200x - I have stated my opinions on smargaret and Parama - I think Parama is scum. You're confirmed town, so obviously you'd be nk'd (assuming we are right and there is indeed no doc), leaving town with Parama, smargaret, and Cliquey. Yes, I would go for Parama.

[Doubtful]

smargaret: It is WIFOM because jim can do whatever he wants, you can't get evidence from that. You can't say: Oh if Parama is scum it must be bussing... if Parama is town his suspect turned out scum... because the truth is: jim was acting scummy - we all know it. If you say that Parama is town in this scenario, him being scum should be a deviation, and similarly if you say Parama is scum in this scenario, him being town should be a deviation. Thus, you can't conclude anything.

Parama:

unvote, vote: jimfinn

Moose is not active lurking. Get that through your brain.

Trying to get jimfinn to vote for a real reason? (this is different from the one with me and jim because jim was trying to prompt me, while in this case Parama is prompting jim)

Or voting scum for a "serious" vote that has no logical basis behind it.

I understand your vote: just not the way you state it. It feels like you are trying to get jimfinn to unvote moose, and then vote someone else with a real reason - by saying that his reason was null (which it indeed was) and then allowing him to switch targets.

I encourage active posting, but a lot of what you're posting now is indeed spam, moose. Only post when you have something to say, not when you just want to say something.

Jim doesn't look any better after his most recent post.

His most recent post:

@Doc: Regarding my comments about you being too town, that is because you seemed to being trying too hard to appear town (e.g. saying things like "you don't want to jokingly claim scum") that certainly have the ring of a scum who wants to act like he is helping the town but really is saying something unlikely to ever be needed again this game that it doesn't really help the town that much.

As a newer player formerly used to f2f mafia, I'm still trying to get used to the day start and not being able to scumhunt based on night actions; D1 scumhunting is rather difficult for me. I certainly don't want a lynch, especially not on p3 of D1, I'm just pointing out comparatively scummy actions in the hope of starting discussion and moving past the RVS.

Just stating facts, makes a valid point on DMSIS, tries to tell the town he needs time to analyze. How's that scummy?

He attempted to make an argument against DMSIS without providing any evidence - we can't check for ourselves if what jim is saying is true, because we don't know what he's referencing. I hate hate hate when people don't provide evidence.
The second paragraph seems like an excuse to not scumhunt during D1.

Well... jim is trying to make an argument on the basis that "X is too town, so we should lynch X", which is actually quite common in F2F, AFAIK.
On the second paragraph: I interpret it as more him saying that he needs time to look at all the cases, accepting the value of D1 scumhunting. To me jim seems quite logical in this post.

Jim: Why the delay in your vote on moose? If you thought he was scummiest at the time of your PBPA, why did you not only not switch your vote, but leave it on DMSIS? You unvoted in a later post but still didn't change your vote.

Prompting. Though I'm guilty of this as well.

No, calling out scum for doing scummy things. You can't call someone scummy without telling them why, can you? Plus, I don't remember if he did, but if a scum reacts to a post like this by trying to do what they should've done earlier, they're obviously trying to appease the town. Which makes them look worse.

Well, if you're town, made an analysis, and forgot to vote in the end, what would you do when asked for a vote? Yes, he did vote according to what you said about moose. He could just be being F2F'ish again and think voting someone = tunneling on them.

I absolutely hate your most recent post. Everything about it reeks of scum. Arrogance, ad hominem, ignorance, etc.

unvote, vote: DMSIS

I will lynch either jim or DMSIS today. Whichever one gets a bigger wagon, I don't care which. They're both scum, and blatantly obvious scumbuddies. I refuse to lynch anyone but these two, because these are our two scum.

You seem so sure... you're definitely trying to lynch one of them, seeing that you think they are scumbuddies. I've stated that I don't quite see the relationship between jim and DMSIS, you didn't respond.

I don't respond to every post in the thread, and I had already given my reasons as to why I thought they were scum together anyways.

At that point in time the only interaction between jim and DMSIS was DMSIS voting jim for his scumtells and jim voting DMSIS for... no real reason. Can't exactly form a "buddy" relationship based on that alone. I understand your individual concerns on both of them, it's the link that I think is lacking in your argument at that time.

unvote

Anyone counterclaim? If there IS a counterclaim, we need to hear it NOW.

Why unvote? jim was at L-2 at that point, scum can't quickhammer and before a cc no town would put a claimed cop at L-1 (because as I said, it favors scum to do a scum-cop trade)

Who the hell leaves their vote on a claimed power role, though?

I thought you said that you were 97% sure DMSIS and jim were scumbuddies, and 100% sure that one of them was scum? Also, even if there's no cc I wouldn't trust jim, and question him further. I unvoted because I didn't want scum to quickhammer, when you unvoted that wasn't a problem, so there was none.

And that list?

More WIFOM. Like I say, when jim flips scum you can't trust what he says. Could easily be trying to set me/chaodck/smargaret up with that list so that other people will reference it. WIFOM.

[Doubtful]

Parama: I understand what you mean, dismissing things as WIFOM, but all of the evidence against me is basically putting DMSIS and then jimfinn at L-1 and WIFOM created by jim's hinting towards me being scum, as far as I can interpret.

OK. jim hints towards relationship with me. I deny any with him. He turns out scum. So? What do you conclude?

And about your first point,

If town doesn't have room for error remaining, then you know that the person you voted who claimed PR is scum (lack of quickhammer)
There's still one other scum if the claim is fake. Yes. So?
The town should NOT listen to the PR claim if the player is still suspicious enough to be distrusted. I thought you were 100% sure jim was scum? And we can still discuss when claimed PR is at L-2...
The town should try to come to the most logical conclusion on who's scum. We did, and we would've done the same without the unvote. It just seemed that you were taking your chances, hoping that there's no cc and saving jim as a result if your scum, and a useless move if you're town.
Yes, doc/cop combo claim is non-applicable, because there hasn't been a doc claim yet!

[Doubtful]

We have one more chance to hypothesis test before we can't screw up. Lets make it count.

I'm going to reassess what I think now that we have two bits of solid information.

However, I probably won't get back to you guys until tomorrow. I'm doing a mass-project concerning replacements in newbies and the likelihoods of being aligned a certain way.

moose, you said you were going to read over at night, so I'm looking for something substantial from you.

Cliquey: Have you reassessed?

[Doubtful]

Parama: I understand now that you are talking about hypothetical situations, not just game theory related to this setup. I don't agree with your game theory, but I can see how it makes sense as well.

I wasn't trying to turn your game theory blurb into something scummy, it just didn't click for me until I realized that you weren't talking about this specific game, which you clarified in your last post.

[Doubtful]

I agree with Cliquey's assessment of doc claiming... though I'm almost sure there's no doc because mafia won't take a risk and allow the cop to get a free inspection. Though I'll go through moose's posts again to see if he hinted towards PR...

Yes, I claim NOT doc.

[Doubtful]

Moose: Like, jim said to block you and nk 583 - so if you aren't the doc and there is a doc I have no idea why jim said that / why the other mafia would take a risk in risking a no-kill + inspection when they aren't sure of the doc.

As for Cliquey, what do you mean he hasn't done anything?

So what if he's the IC? Maybe mafia are trying to frame him? Complete WIFOM...

IC's do survive until the endgame quite a lot when they're town... by the way.

Cliquey's explanation to "not doing anything":

Spoiler: Uhm what?

Could everyone stop saying they suspect me because I'm the IC and I'm not acting in the way they're expecting me to act? I'm posting less than most of you, I'm posting less fluff than most of you, I don't navel-gaze about night actions. But I have made cases, I have voted, I have pointed out consistencies and inconsistencies. Of the 3 or 4 people who have said that they suspect me none of them have actually built a case, they base it solely on me being the IC. I'm no more nor no less likely to be mafia due to my experience. Please stop using it against me, I have yet to and never will say that I am innocent because I am the IC.

If you are going to try to accuse me, please provide a case rather than this vague accusation that keeps getting tossed my way;

Cliquey bothers me because Mist was killed

and the other assorted vagueries.

This is short because our mod is attentive and I'm afraid to get cutoff by the lynchlock

FYR.

[Doubtful]

smaragaret:

8. What do you mean by obvtown? The way I interpret it, obvtown means showing pro-town intentions no matter if you are town or scum, which is the whole point of the game.

You keep saying that you are suspicious of me, but you don't pressure me. How's that pro-town?

10. That's where considering all cases comes in. To me, it still seems like we were considering the possibility of a doc, rather than assuming, because the scum hinted towards there being one. That situation is now void because there's no doc though. In Day 2 we don't know anything about there being / not being a doc at all. smargaret just wanted to say that doc should protect cop no matter what if there's one.

Parama: 381: I was considering all cases - not throwing out an accusation against Johannes for claiming cop. 99.99% of the time Johannes would be cleared...

256: As I said, it wasn't a strong accusation, I was seeing who would follow up with it - and whoever did was scum. (They'd think that I will help them push a mislynch)

As for me forgetting to put a RVS reason? Oops.

[Doubtful]

smargaret:

#470: Scum can discuss strategy during pre-game, AFAIK.
256's point is: Townies won't hammer, it's a weak trap, but a trap nonetheless. I was hoping someone (particularly jim) would jump onto DMSIS as soon as I pushed to L-1 (because jim said he thought scumpair was DMSIS and moose)

I agree, forgetting to RV w/ a reason could be a scumtell. There's not exactly a way I can respond ot that.

Your case against me is basically interaction with jim, 256, and pushing jim (who was obvious as soon as there was a cop cc) to L-1.

#471: Because it gives us an idea of what happened if Johannes didn't die and also didn't claim roleblocked (in this case we can't 100% trust Johannes, though the scum could be risking this to create WIFOM)

Well... say X claims cop at L-1. One of the scum quickhammer X. Day 3 is obvious... kill the person that quickhammers X. It's basically like a 4-player MYLO, except instead of no-lynching we lynch the obv. scum. I mean, it's pretty hard for town to make the right decision in 3-player LYLO... even if there was a massclaim and it came down to two people. Whereas if we made the right decision it would be 4:1 town:scum.

[Doubtful]

Unvote

[Doubtful]

1. Parama
2. smargaret

I have a pro-town read on Cliquey from his responses to the "accusations" on him D1-2, and he doesn't seem to try hiding anything.

As for smargaret,

256:

256: And if you were scum, you could do exactly the same thing and then when a townie hammered, say the townie must be scum for hammering. I could see jim reading you trying to lead town to a mislynch as telling him to hammer - remember, this is day 1, scum hasn't had a night to discuss strategy yet.

Wait, are you talking about if the hammerer was town thinking I was scum trying to get a mislynch?

8. I know you hate arguments based on meta, BUT - look at yours. You play as obvtown whether you're town or scum. In one of the scum games I read, you won precisely because nobody even guessed you might be scum. Now, I don't think that's the case this game, and I think that the remaining scum is Doubtful. That argument isn't strong enough to make alone, hence wanting to pressure you. It's not something I'm that interested in right now.

That's what you're supposed to do as scum and town, to gain general credibility. What does this have to do with the argument against either me or Parama? If you think Parama is being "obvtown", how can you determine if he's scum or town? (As you've said, he could be both) Or do you have a 100% scum read on me, hence making it impossible for Parama to be scum?

Please point it out if I've missed anything. There's not too much more of an argument I can make, except to repeat everything I've said about Doubtful. But really, if you lynch me today and him tomorrow, I'll be happy.

You seem too sure.

maybe so you can make that arguement.
Tehehe jk I'm a mafia role blocker

I could see DMSIS the townie posting that out of bitterness. I could see DMSIS the scum posting that out of a desire to screw us up.

I thought being truthful has become reflexive for you because of F2F?
So how could you still see a townie posting a RB claim? Is it because you are scum?

[Doubtful]

Doubtful, go ahead and hammer smargert.

Why would I hammer smargaret if I think Parama?

I strongly believe that Doubtful is the last scum. And Moose, I'm curious why you changed your mind - you were sure he was scum at the start of day 3 as well.

Moose?

Truth - See my post 284 on page 12.

So? That example is an immediate counterexample of players in F2F always telling the truth.

Doubtful: 256 - Yes, I'm saying you could be scum trying to provoke town into hammering for a mislynch, thus giving us two mislynches (because we'd almost certainly lynch the hammerer day 2) with very little scum effort. jim jumping in to hammer could well have been a mistake.

True point, but when you put someone at L-1 you take the risk of a townie hammering randomly and causing two mislynches. I'm not the only one that put someone at L-1 this game. You put people at L-1 to see how they and other people would react, exactly what I was trying to do.

[Doubtful]

I don't exactly have much to say... I still think Parama after rereading. I've stated my case on Parama, and I have an overall town read from Cliquey.

[Doubtful]

VOTE: Parama

Cliquey? If you aren't going to hammer please make a post...

[Doubtful]

Spoiler: Opinions

TBQH I have little to nothing more to say about this game. I've made my case, I'm

almost

not

positive

smargaret

who

is the last scum. Not really much else to say :/

I've felt Doubtful to be protown all game, moose is cleared, Parama all I can tell is Too Town fallacy, and I don't really feel about smargaret. I don't know about voting due to elimination though.

EBWOP: This feels rather off being that I feel you are trying to use this post as a method of voting smar when the game stalled. This is also why I didn't vote Parama when Parama told me "You should be voting me"

[Doubtful]

Grr... sorry for multiposting, but...

Cliquey seems town, partly due to the vote proxy onto the now-confirmed townie, and some good arguments for scumpicks. On a side note, I'm pretty sure the 3 other players have all accused Cliquey on the basis that "Oh Cliquey is an IC and isn't doing anything, MUST BE SCUM!" which I feel is weak logic.

First sentence can be WIFOM, scum can make good arguments as well. So what if other people (Moose, smar) use bad logic to accuse Cliquey? You can't say anything about Cliquey with your reasons in that post. True, I understand your argument against smar and I, but you're basically ruling out that possibility. Also, you said something along the lines of "I'm going to eliminate Cliquey (hopefully not a fatal mistake)", saying that you are 100% convinced that Cliquey is town. So what's your argument pro-Cliquey and anti-me?

[Doubtful]

Problem is, I don't really think you are scum! after rereading posts by Cliquey.

Cliquey may well be inactive scum, and didn't get the chance to hammer.

The previous 3? 4? posts by me were saying things off about Cliquey. If I were to place a vote, it would probably be Cliquey and not you.

If I know that you are scum (and similarly you know I am scum if you are town) then I wouldn't have posted that!

Your last post makes me feel even more that Cliquey is scum...
UNVOTE: Parama

[Doubtful]

You've compared yourself to Parama before, saying that you're taking the "IC not contributing" arguments just because you are an IC and you can look at Parama similarly. You later say that you feel Parama is very pro-town, and that you've felt me to be pro-town as well. In Day 2 you made the first post, and tried to avoid accusing people. In Day 3 you barely posted (not a scumtell by itself) but made really no opinions on anyone. You went with the smargaret bandwagon, saying that you don't feel about her but feel everyone else to be pro-town. You did object to other people's play, but most of those comments that you say felt scummy were directed at... Moose. You are obviously trying too hard to not have attention brought onto you, and right now your lack of opinion makes it able for you to support any accusation at all.

ISO:

Post 457: What's the point of your "opinion" and "strategic" doing nothing?

You're trying to avoid opinion.

Post 442: You make an opinion on smargaret, trying to avoid actively showing it by voting!

Moose seems like a pretty known entity at this point. He is clearly active, one could argue detrimentally so, makes opinions, changes opinions and takes stances. Of course we all love to see this.

This is the exact opposite of you.

Now... you said basically nothing about 5 players and spent more time talking about my posting habits than talking about one of the most active wagons. Wow, thats pretty bad... especially because you exonerate DMSIS due to moose and I and really, you've explained why 0 of the things I am doing are scummy. Different, but not scummy.

This is exactly what you do, except you talk about how we have to deal with your posting habit. Your logic is good, but you aren't helping town win by giving us your opinion.

Other than those posts you haven't done anything in terms of expectations of both yourself and the town.

Most of these points I bring up aren't completely scummy, but they are points nonetheless.

[Doubtful]

I mean, if they were counted as individual posts they won't be scummy. But altogether you seem to avoid opinion.

The posts I mentioned are basically your most opinionated posts. You didn't vote in them, went along with several wagons, and for jimfinn waited until others piled up on him before saying that you find him scummy.

This isn't fabricating a case on you. This is saying that your lack of opinion and your lack of voting to express opinion by building a case yourself is anti-town, and thus can be considered scummy.

Your arguments were all based upon people making cases against you, some good, most bad. The only time you reached out to someone that isn't attacking you because you "found them scummy" were Johannes and smargaret - both times you failed to vote.

[Doubtful]

In Day 2 you made the first post, and tried to avoid accusing people. In Day 3 you barely posted (not a scumtell by itself) but made really no opinions on anyone.

Actually, I think Cliquey said he needed to reread or something.

But he never did do anything after reread after town reads.

You went with the smargaret bandwagon, saying that you don't feel about her but feel everyone else to be pro-town.

If you feel everyone else is pro-town, PoE says that the person you don't have a town read on is scum, no?
I mean, admittedly Cliquey never did give an opinion of Smarg, but...

I don't see how you can have a non-scum read on every post in the game by Parama, smargaret, and I.

You did object to other people's play, but most of those comments that you say felt scummy were directed at... Moose.

???

He analyzed the DMSIS and jim voting patterns, and objected to moose's play, but says that it isn't scummy because moose is confirmed. Why would you say it at all then?

You are obviously trying too hard to not have attention brought onto you, and right now your lack of opinion makes it able for you to support any accusation at all.
Well at the start of the day Cliquey did post some opinions <.<

Some opinions that were both weak and not supported by a vote?

ISO:

Post 457: What's the point of your "opinion" and "strategic" doing nothing?

You're trying to avoid opinion.

I don't think you even read this post if you think it lacks opinion...

Cliquey basically said he thinks that the accusations against him are bad. That he has nothing to defend to when those accusations are brought to him. Which I agree on. Though still he lacks scumhunting.

Post 442: You make an opinion on smargaret, trying to avoid actively showing it by voting!

...
I don't even know.

Now... you said basically nothing about 5 players and spent more time talking about my posting habits than talking about one of the most active wagons. Wow, thats pretty bad... especially because you exonerate DMSIS due to moose and I and really, you've explained why 0 of the things I am doing are scummy. Different, but not scummy.

This is exactly what you do, except you talk about how we have to deal with your posting habit. Your logic is good, but you aren't helping town win by giving us your opinion.

Giving opinions doesn't help town win?

Gah, misstatement. I meant to say: Your logic is good, but you aren't helping town win because you aren't giving your opinion, and also giving opinions is pro-town. Notice in the first sentence how I state that Cliquey isn't actively expressing his opinion, and rarely gives them anyways.

The wording in this entire post just seems... confused, almost. Like, trying to push suspicion without even knowing what you're saying.

Most of these points I bring up aren't completely scummy, but they are points nonetheless.

...
What.

I mean, everyone has one post of no scumhunting. I just don't get how you go a whole game as town without substantial scumhunting.

I like Cliquey's responses. Especially:

In your paragraph you set up saying that I have opinions, then claim that I have no opinion whatsoever-- can you make up your mind?

Yeah, this is pretty much it - Doubtful is calling out scummy things without really knowing what he's saying. And that leads to contradictions.

The posts I mentioned are basically your most opinionated posts. You didn't vote in them, went along with several wagons, and for jimfinn waited until others piled up on him before saying that you find him scummy.

The posts you mentioned, you said they were lacking in opinion, right? Uh...

However.
I would like to see Cliquey give his current opinions - who do you think is scum, and why?

[Doubtful]

Is it game over Cliquey?

[Doubtful]

Gah, I can't say much. I was wrong all along, I don't exactly have much of a statement against Parama even though I know he's scum.

VOTE: Parama

[Doubtful]

Good game. Thanks for modding kunkstar7.