Newbie 999 - Game Over

[boberz]

/confirm

Hi all, I am an SE.

1) Are you having fun yet?

I am always having fun on MS

2) Chocolate or vanilla?

Vanilla

3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?

Here, not quite 10 I think. Loads and loads of f2f.

4) Lynch all Liars?

Let's say we will and then assess the situation in context (I realise that I have just said I wont pretty much, but it is a newbie game and I dont want to mislead.

5) Math or Sports?

Darts

6) Lynch all Lurkers?

Repeat Lynch all liars response

7) What do you think of the RVS?

Hate it. I prefer the RQS, I prefer even more real cases.

[boberz]

Nobody Special I would like you to delay your answers till after everyone seeing as this is a newbie game. Also I expect you to justify the questions after that as well.

[boberz]

vote chess

Chess in what situation do you intednt to lie to us?

[boberz]

Ok I am going to assume you are town for a moment and assume that last point doesnt belong to you.

I am going to request that you do not lie in any of those situations you have just described because it will just get you into deep doodoo. I play a lot of face to face mafia and liars in those situations are inadvisable. In a newbie game on this site I cannot conceive of a reason to lie. (IC back me up please if I am right of course)

Meanwhile your willing to lie warrants a serious vote at this stage. So I suggest we wagon chess!!!

[boberz]

I am not really asking for your view on whether we should lynch all liars, more whether you would suggest that people shouldnt lie. Subtly different. I would like you to answer but do not feel obliged.

[boberz]

But that's not to say lying can't be an effective tool if used properly. *shrug*

In a newbie game I strongly feel there is no situation where it will help. If you can give one then I will hear you out, but at the moment I can't see it.

Meanwhile in other news... Where is everyone else?

[boberz]

We know the possible setups. And there are no roles that would require lying. Perhaps as a Bulletproof it may be worth a lie if you need to draw a kill, but we know you are not any role that would need to lie. (the potential setups are in the OP)

So all this makes me think why would you lie. My conclusion you are scum laying the ground work for in case youi get caught in a lie later.

---

After the cross post...

I suppose we can agree for you not to lie without good reason, so long as that means you dont lie. (I often play they can save themselves as well btw in real life)

Deceit is going to be a lot harder for you in online mafia. But why would you want to decieve us?

No claims for a good while yet at least!

[boberz]

Zipper, if you consider this my third degree you need to go look at my meta. THis is me being nice but critical.

Tbh chesskid is victim of the fact nobody else is really posting much. But on a serious note he would not learn not to lie unless people like me (or you) tell him not to lie.

Chess lying as a doc would be so inadvisable it is mad. particularly close to a hammer. But I dont want to put you off mafia. So all smiles

@Zipper, when do you suggest I start pressurising players? You are aware the game has started and there was a player planning to potentially lie to us.

[boberz]

Good point. But we should still be playing the game, we are gonna need all the time we get.

[boberz]

Parknourie, what do you think of what has happened in the game so far.

Red Coyote, do you still wish to go ahead with RQS no NS has gone?

[boberz]

I would like people to complete the questionnairre then, because I would not want those who took longer to confirm get away without doing it. It was primarily for discussion I expect, but it might be usefull later in the game. RQS caught me in my only game as scum (a newbie game).

So for those who have not answered:

1) Are you having fun yet?

2) Chocolate or vanilla?

3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?

4) Lynch all Liars?

5) Math or Sports?

6) Lynch all Lurkers?

7) What do you think of the RVS?

[boberz]

unvote vote panda bear

Clearly setting up an excuse to lie, lurk and vote randomly. All things that will help mafia in the end.

Serious point: there seriously is no reason to lie (if you are town) please dont do it. It will end up in trouble and potentially make us lose. If you need to convince somebody just use argument and logic rather than lying about something.

[boberz]

Yay we have started. Will post tomorrow.

[boberz]

Commie, the questions clearly have to be relevant to this game and for pregame I consider the notion that some may consider lying to me more than enough for a vote.
You fail to address why my view of the liars is actually scummy.

Meanwhile I suggest we wagon some, prefferably chess

vote chess

will have more to say tomorrow no doubt.

[boberz]

This is my first game, but I can already tell I'm better than all of you.

Explain.

[boberz]

FOS: Parknourie for essentially accusing Bogart of lurking after one proper post. A bit strange.

I see nothing wrong with saying that I don't believe in LAL.

That is not what I said, go and read again. I also dont believe in LAL.

Explain how question one is directly related to the game. Go on

It is making sure ll the new players remember it is a game. It is a newbie game, this is arguably the most directly related question of them all, he would not have asked that in a large theme game for example.

don't think I understand, are you calling myself or chess scummy?

Neither,I was suggesting thaat you had failed to explain why I was scummy, but thrown a fair bit of mud at me.

@allrandomvoters!!! why have you random voted???

We need some wagons. I say chess, I think he still plans to lie to us! He also managed to disguise an OMGUS reaction in an alledged random vote. He of all people shouldnt be random voting. Unvotes this early demonstrate people who are scared of being caught out. Easilly the best candidate so far.

Parknourie needs to improve massively.

I need to analyse the RQS, tomorrow I suspect.


RedCoyote, why present a case on someone (1=2) then random vote???

---

Conclusion,

Commie needs to reread, he has completely misunderstood what is going on.
Random voters need to get off their backsides and do something.

[boberz]

1) @ Boberz: Either 4 or 5 people in this game have said no to the policy LaL, and while reasons may/may not be different for saying no, I think that the general consensus is that LaL is a bad idea because someone lying does not imply that they are necessarily scum [opinions differ on whether town should ever lie, I guess. I still think it depends on the situation]. Sure, it's suspicious, and they had better have a good reason for any lies, but it shouldn't be a policy lynch with no discussion.
Further, not agreeing to LaL does not imply that someone is going to lie (I think CommieX pointed this out above as well)

Everyone read and take note, I am not a LALer, I am not voting chess because he is not a LALer, but because he went further and tried to justify people lying as town. Then when I narrowed it down to a newbie game he still tried to justify it. This is actually quite a scummy move for chess I am not joking or stretching.

@ Boberz: I unvoted because I wasn't sure of internet access.

Maybe, maybe not. I suggest a proper wagon so we can find out.

I suppose my vote was a bit of an OMGUS, not sure why that means anything though.

Now I highly recommend a wagon. OMGUS is bad because it is a very reactive inward looking defensive action, which betrays somewhat of a scum mentality. It is by no means a strong tell but definately worth a wagon.

[boberz]

The quicker you guys do someting the more info we will have HB. So go and attack someone for something, I honestly dont care what.

Why do you think I want either those things chess? eanwhile go and talk about someone other than yourself.

[boberz]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... reviations that should helpt you out HB

I will personally object if the day is less than 15 pages.

---

A wagon means a bandwagon. I expect it would lead to L-2 or something, but perhaps if we hit scum it would be worth a lynch, not on the current info though.

---

My case kind of developed rather than all at once, but I will make it clearer in my next post.

---

Meanwhile

unvote vote 1=2

Why is it bad that we are out of random vote stage?
He also did the classic unvote because I am scared that this vote might be analysed at some point...
Doesn't seem to like me milking chess for info, so I'll milk him instead.
Needs to scumhunt more.

---

@RedCOyote, so your random vote is going to make panda feel pressure and talk to you? If you have a suspicion act on it,don't disguise it in randomness.

[boberz]

Because I need a wagon. I have not given up on chess.

Speaking of that, here is why chess is scum:

Chess assumes I want to lynch him or make him claim. Neither of which are true, but shows how he has a selfpreservation mentality more commonly attributed to scum.

He fails to do any scumhunting despite being one of the more active players.

An OMGUS vote (towards me) which is very reactive and suggests he knows people's allignements and is looking for a lynch rather than trying to find out who is what. Moroeverhe tries to disguise it as random when it is clearly not because I have been attacking him for a while.

Chess repeatedly tries to find situations where hecan lie. He is more than against a policy lynch he is actively justifying lying later. Meaning if we catch him in a lie when it is not acceptable he can point back to this moment. (@Panda dont think I didnt notice you do similar earlier aswell, you are not going to get away with buttering me up early)

---

Other noteworty early things:

Zipper trying to stop discussion and defends chess early, for little reason. Uses emotive language for no reason in defending chess and attacking me when it really was not appropriate. Suggests I shouldnt attack people in case I put them off mafia, completely against the spirit of the game.

Vote: Bogart

@Bogart: This is indeed your first game in this site?
Then How are you better than all of us? could you post some more?

@Everyone else: Bogart only posted a handful of posts and he avoids anything serious to talk about. This is very scummy and I think he is only doing this to avoid showing his thoughts.

Most hypocritical attack ever. Faile to even answer my very simple question, "what do you think of what has happened so far?"



Conclusion, a lot of players are avoiding starting the game. No excuse. Everyone post a case in the next page or two, preferably on chess or 1=2 but I am not fussy.

[boberz]

You roll on the floor too much 1=2.

Could you please define a wagon, boberz? Right now it actually does look like you want to lynch chess or make him claim, so could you please clearly define a wagon?

A wagon means a bandwagon. I expect it would lead to L-2 or something, but perhaps if we hit scum it would be worth a lynch, not on the current info though.

And right now I can't scumhunt on people that haven't posted that much

Yes you can. I did, and I have more (but I think others should contribute)

And why are you scared that my votes will be analyzed?

Sorry that is my sarcastic tone I was suggesting that was your attitude.

My vote was random, so I took it off

If that is your attitude (it is also mine) then what was the point in a random vote at all. Then again ifyou ote someone I will probably join you once I have decent answers from chess.

I'll answer his

answer this then

Why is it bad that we are out of random vote stage?

---

@all, there is a case to be made for panda scum at the moment. Anyone care to have a try at making one?

---

Ever since the RQS you've been questioning me about my answer to LaL

Indeed, do some scumhunting as well. You can do more than one thing in a post.

I haven't repeatedly tried to find situations in which I can lie

There's the inspector claim when it's really your neighbor (doesn't work online),
The risky but effective fake inspector claim when you get a read you're sure of on someone (risky if the real inspector counterclaims or you're wrong)
Then of course there are also the scum lies, yes, but there are benefits as town to being somewhat suspicious.

"chess

Hypothetical: Were I for example doctor, and get hammered on day 1/2, I doubt I would claim doctor. Depending on the circumstances, I'd claim vanilla and try to beat the rap, because with these rules, a claimed doctor is worthless. There's a situation I would lie in. Of course now it's worthless because I just said it, but still.
[/quote]

continued justification...

because as soon as you claim doc, you die and town loses doc for sure, while if you beat the hammer, town doesn't lose doc...Doc/Inspector team is powerful enough that it can make up the difference. Again, I said depending on the situation, if I was going to be lynched prettymuch guaranteed without a great claim, I would, but if it looked like I might be able to escape, I wouldn't.

try again... or you can agree to not lie in this game (full stop) and I will drop that element of my case.

an RVS OMGUS doesn't do any harm

But it was not random because I had already made a case on you. You are clearly scum because you tried to use the existance of RVS to disguise your motives.

What would you like me to infer from your intentions towards me, given that you've been after me as of page 1?

I am scared because boberz has already found me as scum so I had better act confident and try and scare him off the scent

(not gonna work)

[boberz]

Cross post, I will answer the accusation in a sec

[boberz]

How can you analyze a wagon you asked to be created? What info does a wagon on chess give you? I can understand reading a wagon that springs up naturally, but to ask everyone to vote for the sole purpose of putting a player at L-1 gives us no info, because everyone's motivation was to create a wagon.

I can analyse it very well, much easier than a load of nonposters too scared to even keep their random votes alive. I can see who leaves the wagon when, I can see if there is a competing wagon, I can see what people's view of wagons are. Where did I say anything about L-1 (you wouldnt be misrepping me would you zipper?)?

Self-preservation is a mentality shared by all players. It's a false dichotomy to state that only scum wish to stay alive. A townie knows they are town, thus they know that lynching them is a waste. A townie lynch may provide information, but a townie shouldn't go down without a fight.

False, many townies do share selfpreservation, but they shouldnt. Every scum wants to stay alive. Therefore you are more likely to be scum if you have a selfpreservation mentality. In many cases a townie is better dead because you can analyse what he says etc...

It's RVS, how much scumhunting can you do?

Plenty. Otherwise the game would be a perpetual random game which it is not.

Can you provide the links to support this claim?

DO it yourself there is only four pages. See me making several posts against chess and him replying, followed by him voting "boberz because it sounds like roberz"

This is an outright misrepresentation. He was asked, if I recall correctly, in what situations a lie would be justifiable. There is nothing wrong in attempting to justify your point when you are asked to do so

When asked rather than realise he was wrong he made several attempts to justify lying, do you really expect me to let it go, just because he may actually believe what he is saying.

Yeah, this point needs more evidence as well. I countered your argument, because I believe you were overreacting and attempting to mudsling chess. You set him up for a future lynch by making it seem like he was intending to lie, when it's clear that it's not his intention to lie. How does giving a rebuttal to your attack constitute stopping discussion? If anything, I was encouraging and open debate.

What do you actually want me to do. Quote the post where you said I was giving him the "3rd degree" etc... Yolu actively tell me not to attack chess and for absolutely no reason, it isnt like it was a massive wago or something.

---

Conclusion.

Every player, iso me and then iso zipper.

Who looks like they are trying to stimulate discussion the most?
Who looks like they are trying to find scum?
Who looks like they are proper scared that I have caught their buddy early on? (the reply to this question will be "are you serious?" my answer will be "probably not")

[boberz]

It wasnt meant to be capitalised in that way (typo), but being asked to quote a post with a vote in it when the player has apparently taken great interest in the exchange between myself is a little bit harsh in itself.

I am not convinced all of those five are scum. And I have only made a proper case on chess, just quoted things of a few others for interest.

For the record I do not really think it is zipper, he is like 5th of that 5. Just thought attack was the best form of defence (along with an actual defence)

---

Fancy a wagon Red? Ill go with anyone you want.

[boberz]

Seems like wagon is your favorite word isn't it?

But what is the point in wagon'ing anybody? I've got my suspicions, you've got yours... Why don't wagon anyone you suspect to be scummy?

Because then we wouldnt wagon anyone, meaning the only pressure anyone would get is words. Votes speak louder than words. I am not actually joking here this is quite obvious stuff. If there are three people all seriously voting one player anda atleast one of them attacking then they will feel pressure. If they just have me rabbiting on at them, then they just think "oh I am boberz' next target". (I was asked for a definition of wagon which is why I brought it up.

[boberz]

I can tell you I will always have a self-preservation mentality, regardless of my alignment. The only way I would willing be lynched over Random Guy X is if I knew for a fact it would net the town scum. The fact is a player knows their own alignment, therefore it's better to get the town lynch anyone else because they have more chance of being scum when you yourself have 0 chance of being scum

That is nice, but I still consider it scummy despite your anecdotal self meta!

If this is true, then why do you need a wagon? If there is plenty of stuff to use scumhunting, then use it instead of asking for a random bandwagon.

I am, you are but CHess is not. We all need a wagon because it will shift power from the scum informed minority to the town less informed majority (ie we actually use our numbers to our advantage)

Since when is it okay to not provide evidence to back up your claims?

Since it was so obvious. But to help you:

VOTE: Boberz
Rhymes with Roberz, 'nuff said.

(Note the chronology, my initial attack preceded this)

You're using his thoughts on mafia theory to justify an attack on him for something that he "MIGHT DO" in the future. We should lynch people for what they "HAVE DONE" not for what they "MIGHT DO." Not adhering to LaL doesn't make one scum.

I fear I am repeating myself and suggest you read a little harder. I also dont subscribe to LAL I am not accusing chess because he doesnt believe in LAL. One of the reasons I am accusing him is because he repeatedly tried to justify a position where he would lie to us (that is how I phrased the question, deliberately so). Even then I have given him an out on this one, saying I will drop it if he promises not to lie to us.

How is countering your point and attacking you killing discussion? You made a move and I responded. Did you expect everyone to follow you blindly? I'm not keen on voting people for something I don't think they are guilty of.

You dont have to vote him, it is not you I am attacking really. But you actively encourage me to not attack him.

(No doubt you want proof):

Here you suggest I should teach rather than attack. I am not Dumbledore. Fear of being lynched is exactly how I want him to feel, he is more likely to slip if he is pressured. Perhaps I should just request kindly that the scum just own up now and we all have a game of cricket instead?

Telling him not to lie and explaining why are better tools at teaching him not to do it than are casting suspicion upon him and the fear of getting lynched

Here you suggest I should stop attacking.

I'm not fond of Boberz giving chess the third degree

Here you suggest I hould just put up with him lying

Town lying may be an acceptable play in his RL meta

Here you just completely misrep all the actual points I made by labelling them all mudsling.

I find Boberz assumption that chess is scum based on his personal view of LaL to be both an overreaction and misrepresentation which amounts to nothing more than early mudslinging

Conclusion: ou did do what I accused you of, you just sat around not really answering it to make me look silly. This time you had better answer.

---

Here is the most ludicrous acusation:

Oh, I agree, but Boberz keeps saying there is "so much" to make a case from, yet he can't make a case without a wagon

Does anyone actually beleive what he wrote at the end there. "Can't make a case without a wagon", iso me and just tell zipper he is wrong. I am one of the few players to have made any cases.

Also zipper, you accuse me of wanting random wagons, I want no such thing.You completely misunderstand what I have been arguing for.

[boberz]

Wagons put pressure on people, when those people are scum it means they slip.
Wagons make the danger of no lynch/policy lynch less, because there are always viable candidates and less last minute bartering is required.
Wagons mean town's discussion is streamlined and focussed meaning we do not miss it when the scum do make mistakes. If we are all attacking different players then that is going to happen.
Wagons mean that when somebody hops on and off wagons then when town have some info later in the game they can analyse the wagons to find scum.
Wagons mean town can use there majority to control the minority of scum. Without wagons scum are the only ones with any control as they know the alignments of people.

Chess this is really important please at least don't find others scummy for wagons it would kill our chances. If you don't believe me go and find a thread about wagons in MD or ask the IC. (I hope he agrees with me).

I also understand the concerns about having two votes on the same person during RVS

Explain them please. I deliberately voted for someone with a vote!!!

@alltown please also stop talking about a RVS in this game. We didnt have one. We had some random votes, but it was by no means a stage because there were serious votes and discussion also going on. Not every game has an RVS, but almost all have random votes. The next person who laughs something off because of the RVS is going to get a kicking.

I also think it is too early to call out lurkers, not everyone can post at the weekend.

[boberz]

I'm not saying wagons are useless, because they are in fact major sources of info. However, for the info to be pure the wagon has to be naturally occuring, just asking everyone to vote Chess for no reason other than to run up the votes on him looks like you are trying to pressure a claim from him or run a quick lynch.

Well I wasn't going for either. And asking people to get on chess encourages wagoning full stop. I didnt expect everyone to hop on without reasoning but the point is we need wagons, and people should not actively avoid doin like chess just admitted doing.

It's obvious that this was a joke vote.

A joke vote, almost certainly, I dnot think he thinks I am scum. But I said it wasnt a random vote which is much more important, he purposefully picked me because I was making a case on him, he merely voted in a joking manner.

hy is his OMGUS of you any more scummy than my OMGUS of 1=2

Because I was playing the game properly and he was panicing.

Again, he's justifying his beliefs because you keep attacking him

That is nice, but if I find his beliefs scummy or just plain simply unacceptable then I am going to vote him and attack him remorselessly.

I encouraged you not to use a baseless attack on someone.

It is not baseless. And that is a bit of a backtrack from your original assertion that you actually stimulated discussion.

Sure, he is more likely to slip when he is pressured, but town can make slips as well.

and then our job is to tell townslips from scumslips. That would be the game of mafia.

are you trying to catch scum or are you trying to make a townie slip up to become lynch meat.

catch scum

I suggest you make an attack that is fonded on evidence and logic. Baseless attacks are a distraction at worst and a reaction troll at best.

They are not baseless, and I have made points against others aswell but am hoping for others to take the lead on thos. i dont want to lead every attack, that would be unfair (it is a newbie game afterall)

WHAT! That is not even close to what I said... Just because his meta is cool with lying doesn't mean we should be cool with lying.

Ok a happy medium: you suggested that if it is his meta I should still lay off him. I disagree.

What actual points? Standing around and calling someone scum for no reason is mudslinging.

Go and read the thread.

You are the one that keeps saying you need a wagon, if you can make a case (with actual points) then please do so, because I still only see blatant misrepresentation, over reaction, and mudslinging.

I have made a case! more than one. Go and have a proper read, an nice long one qith a cool drink anf a flannel for when you realise you are wrong.

I will leave that for the town to decide.

---

Most importantly though zipper you fail to address why any of the things you accuse me of make me scummy.

Wanting to pressure players is not scummy. Neither is mudslinging. Neither are bandwagons. Neither are any of the other things you accuse me of scummy. So why am I scum. Explain...

Moreover you constantly accuse me of needing random wagons. I neither need wagons nor want random wagons. But it is imo optimal play for us to have wagons.

---

Chess. Even if you disagree with me surely you see that zipper's claim that I havent made a case is false?

[boberz]

I have no reason to lie this game, so I promise not to lie. Happy?

@boberz: I was just mentioning that the whole idea of wagons as a beneficial thing is new to me, so I may take a short while to catch on to how they are useful.
What I don't understand is....D1 ends when 5 people are on a wagon, right? The wagon makes it more likely someone on a town lynch was mafia, or vice versa...but it certainly is not an absolute. I take it the wagon information is then compared with other actions of players on the wagon, etc, so it's more of a voting record than a 'wagon'?

But not every wagon is a lynch wagon. You need to see who derails wagons, why some wagons arent worthy of lynch wagons. Who holds onto wagons when they are dead. Loads of things you can do regardless of alignment.

It is certainly much more than a voting record. but you are catching on to my view much more now.

The wagon makes it more likely someone on a town lynch was mafia, or vice versa

Discard this though because it will lead you into all sorts of circular logic: 'or is this what he was doing to look like town?' kind of thing. So this is not the best way to use it though.

[boberz]

This is a good catch; I hadn't realized that.

I had already pointed it out in one of my walls.

(paraphrase) wagons are bad how else can you analyse them

No they are not and I have explained how I plan to use them.

(too strongly, I think)

No such thing as too strong, the stronger I am the more other people have to be strong to refute me, and the more likely they are to realise I am wrong.

(paraphrase) the pressure wagons will have no pressure if you force them

The original one will not but once the precedence of wagons are set then they develop into proper wagons, as we are is very disorganised and helping scum.

Fair enough, but to be fair right now of the opinion that the town would have FAR more to gain from a wagon from you. Therefore, my vote stays

Town would gain from wagons >> Boberz wants wagons >> boberz must be scum. (Good logic /sarcasm)

Contradiction much?

No it is not, because you will notice I am keen to get others involved. I have made several cases and have floated a point about panda.

First of all, the first post chess made after you voted him CLEARLY STATES that none of those situations apply in this game. I'd just like to let you know.

If I remember correctly they were wrong anyway I think. But I then made it specific to a newbie game to to and reach a compromise, but no he came back with some madness about a doctor claiming vanilla.

He should not claim vanilla as a doc (especially near a hammer) because if he is a doctor we will try and analyse his claim and we are more likely to not hammer him. If he claims vanilla we are much more likely to lynch him anyway. This is actually one of the worst reasons to lie.

[quote="Commie]]This is just naked arrogance.[/quote] Yes, but it was a ludicrous accusation. I infer from your silence on the matter I was right.

Again, this is not what I'm saying. We should lynch him if he is caught lying, but we shouldn't ostracize him because he comes from a place were lying is acceptable.

Get it into your skull I do not want to lynch him!!!! I am not even voting him. I have at no point ostracised him.

It was his second vote of the game! How can you determine that that is panicky?

Because he tried to dress his omgus vote as random. I fear you are going round in circles. You may not like my answer but it is going to stay the same.

wagons put town closer to a lynch ... scum want to lynch townies so we should not wagon

*facepalm* ( I literally did.)

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@Commie, what would a meta read tell you? What have I done that is scummy? You show a few places where you think I am wrong, I am not. But even if I was I am just wrong not scummy. A meta read you are welcome to do, but it is a waste of your own time. (I do play like this in every day 1)

@Commie, zipper, chess. You all dont seem to like my play much. Why not start a wagon on me?

@chess, panda, 1=2, you really do need to use your vote. You wouldnt be scared scum would you?

@town. Why do we have 5 targets with 6 people?

@town. Do you realise that a lynch is our only weapon to catch scum, and the only ways we get to use our numbers to our advantage is to have competing wagons!!!

@scum. fancy a pint?

[boberz]

My faith in Boberz as a clean player has wavered a bit due to his talking about his activeness, but you just don't vote out the most active person on Day 1.

Why is my talking about my activeness bad?

[boberz]

(no 't' in boberz)

[boberz]

If I was lying when I said it then yes lynch me, but I wasn't. Also HB, I like the fact you are trying to attack me but you need more follow through, if you think something is scummy try and explain why with logic rather than just roll over if someone disagrees with you.

So why do you think it might be scummy? Or why do the people on the other site think it is scummy?

[boberz]

unvote vote parknourie

For active lurking
For denying lurking
For not reading the thread properly
For trying to throw mud at the chess and 1=2 spots for replacing.
For still not scumhunting

---

@andres - active lurking is when a player is posting without actually scumhunting, so they are trying to look like they are contributing or simply avoiding prods. It is anti-town and arguably scummy.

Commie is still massively wrong, but I fear that our discussion is just giving him reason not to scumhunt. So I will leave him alone.

[boberz]

Good, merely to not let anyone hammer I will

unvote

---
Zipper you failed to address why my attack (however baseless and illogical (mudslinging much?)) was scummy. Glad to see you have accepted you were wrong about wagons though.
---

I also do not really want a claim yet, so no claim please. but park you should realise we probably have enough people to lynch you, so beware make your next post a good one.

---

Unvote. Vote: Park

His attack of lurkers while lurking is quite scummy.

Find something original please.

I have an automatic FOS on all people who have FOSd in the last two or three pages (since park case got at all serious).

I am not a fan of tanstalas on this wagon btw (and zipper obviously he reeks of scum with that vote but give him enough rope and all that.)

---

Tanstalsas still interested of what you think of NB

[boberz]

Just thought, why did nobody call me out on never analysing the RQS are you guys reading? Will do today or tomorrow depending on access.

[boberz]

Zipper, I have not sked for random wagons get it into your skull or atleast ahow where I did. The fact you think any wagon I started at that point is a random wagon shows a hole in your mafia play. I do not have hypocracoes or double standards.

You are beginning to fall into the 'too townie' fallacy:

Good attempt at buying town pants. "I'll make myself look good by pulling off the wagon by making it look like I'm trying to avoid a quick hammer."

I am by no means saying this shows I am town but this is the optimul play right now. He should still feel a great deal of pressure he is after all an already promised vote away from beig lynched. When someone is at L-1 at this stage of the day somebody should unvote, especially in a newbie game.

Zipper's attitude is completely wrong here. I could continue to disect him point by point, he is wrong after all (I still challenge anyone to defend him) but it would be anti-town as it is merely providing an excuse for zipper to not make a proper case/ tunnel on me.

Zipper, I can beat you for attacking fierocity, don't put on this hardman charade to take me on. You do not think I am scum you are just too stubborn to back down. You still suggest I am scummy but make a proper case (ie not one that everyone seems to think is a defence of someone else).

I've addressed your attack point for point, and for the record I've always agreed that wagons are important

But you have done nothing else, that is rather why I have stopped addressing your points point for point.

[boberz]

You are going to have to help me out here, what is NB?

Sorry I mean HB (Humphrey Bogart)

Also, may I ask why you are not a fan of me on this wagon? RedCoyote and I were basically posting our reasons for thinking he was scum at the same time. Do you think I should not have voted him, do you think that was scummy some how? If so, explain. Look at my posts in relation to what others were posting at the time, I think I have been fairly transparent with my thinking in my vote, I really do not understand you boberz, you were the one who wanted people to get aggressive and actually scumhunt, now it seems that you have done a 180.

No 180, I like your scumhunting you were good on the wagon early on it is more recently I have become a tad sceptical. I wasn't a massive fan of

Seriously, can we lynch this scum now?

nor did I like this much

ACTIVE LURKING and that is bad, VERY VERY VERY bad

it's not that bad really. I mean it is scummy but a weak tell in a newbie imo. It just seemed a bit emotional.

I am not massively suspicious of you at all. but depending on what the game was like later (if zipper was town for example) I might take a look. It was meant as a semi-throw away comment, but somehting I could come back to later in the game.

Did we pin your scumbuddy down and that's why? Thinking that may also explain why you removed your vote shortly after you saw him at L-1. The newbies in this game were already warned by me to not just hammer.

Go and look at the amount of games that have had early hammers particularly new ones. I have made it perfectly clear my vote stays with him in spirit. And he can get answering our accusations pretty swiftly. And trust me the lynch next day would not be that easy, much toomuch wifom occurs. Although I would 100% be behind that hypo wagon.

---

Elaborate

Yours was the least bad, with an explanation why it wasnt a vote. But in terms of a general rule I think it betrays a lower inclination to be held to your belief. It is not counted in a vote count, it does not put as much pressure on the receiver. And gives no actual info or scumhunting. I would not want everyone getting away with this for the whole game because it is suboptimum play; but I do not think it is really that scummy in context.

There was another reason but I'll leave it for a page I think.

Did anyone give an analysis of the RQS?

No, but I promised to and didn't. I was questioning why someone hadn't called me on it.

I swear, you and Zip are beginning to sound like an old married couple. Your back and fourth bickering isn't exactly helping us find the scum and it's distracting from the trying to catch scum part of the game (don't blame it entirely on Zip either, you HAVE to know comments like this will evoke a response).

It could have been a lot worse if I took his quote walls and exposed them point by point as I was orginally doing. Until he backs down I a going to give him sarcastic replies. If he gives a proper attack I will address it with suitable maturity. If he goes on someone else properly I will leave him be.

Not so much of the old either.

[boberz]

End discussion of PRs please.

[boberz]

End discussion of PRs please.

This is a newbie game, I am attempting to educate the newbies as well as answer your question on what I think of HB. Me keeping my theories to myself may only end up hurting the town in the long run if the newbies do not get a decent grasp of the game. (Especially if the scum are for example the IC and an SE and the other SE gets NK'd tonight there will be a HUGE advantage for the scum then). If I can impart wisdom to the newer players, even if I die, if they play well enough I can still win. Helping the town through education just makes sense. There are only 2 scum in the game, hence there may be as many as 6 "newbies" that are town.

Granted I do see where you are coming from, and that makes me think you more pro-town, however this is Mafia and that could just be a WIFOM tactic from you.

Speaking of newbies, I still consider myself one, one of the questions in the RQS was how much experience you have playing mafia. I have only completed 2 games on this site - currently in an additional 3 games here (including this one) ATM and have completed 2 games from start to finish on another site and replaced into another on that site.

Since the town will not get much of a meta read from me based on my 2 completed games here (one I was town and NK'd N1 and the other I won - as scum) if you guys want, and if it is allowed I can post you links to the other sites games I have played so you can get a better read on me for meta. (It is a video gaming website which is a well regarded site)

I dont want off site meta, I wont read it, others may.

Please stop talking about PRs newbie game or not. You will only get a reaction out of someone (other than me who reacts to everything).

Granted I do see where you are coming from, and that makes me think you more pro-town, however this is Mafia and that could just be a WIFOM tactic from you.

OK all this is a complete fallacy. The only person creating wifom here is you. If I am protown it probably means I am town. It may not, but 99% of the time it will. If you get a scum read on me later, then I may very well have posted this as scum, but to use the 'too townie' tell on it's own is really bad logic.

THis is the third person to say somethig along these lines btw.

[boberz]

there is no 'too townie'=scum that term doesnt exist.
if it does exist then your 'too scummy' = town
which doesnt make sense at all.

that was exactly what i said?

It was also what I said. It was what I was being accused of.

o u think he is scum or not>
if you do, you vote, if you dont, you dont vote.
by voting and unvoting, ur telling us that your unsure of your vote, or that we just got your partner.

I think he is scum, but if you think I am going to leave him at L-1 when there are people with your crude understanding of votes around then you are mistaken.

Park needs to get here quickly.

[boberz]

so you think hes scum but your unwilling to lynch him? sounds contradictory?

It is not contradictory but rather it is optimum play. we are on like page 9 or something. He is not here to defend himself. The whole case has built up without him answering properly (I am not lynching because he lurked off answering) and there are too many players who have not done enough in the game. So on balance I am not just going to vote the person who I think is scum (I don't have enough votes anyway).

[boberz]

Zipper you rlogic is so poor it is unbleievable. Too townie is a fallacy you seem to refuse to accept. If I am doing the optimul play, I do not care whether you think I am scum it is not scummy. I dont have internet access properly but he is getting a kicking tommorow (however married coupley it looks)

Meanwhile I dont massively like the other 3 candidates at the moment although may be tempted on tan if someone convinces me

[boberz]

Optimal move or not, in conjunction with your early posts it seems like an attempt to make yourself look like town.

You know, I hadn't really thought of this, but this is probably a good point. I see zipper's way of looking at boberz now: as someone who is far too self-interested and focused on the "appearance" of the game than he is on the reality of the game (e.g. wagons need to take place with so-and-so requirements, X is not an optimum play, days need to be so-and-so pages long, et cetera).

boberz, what do you say to the idea that you're too locked into making this day the "perfect town day" that you may be losing sight, either inadvertently or not, of what exactly is going on?

I am aware what is going on, I have been scum hunting, being active on wagons and other practical things. But we also have a responsibility to do well and explain what we are doing as we do things I wouldn't have explained why I unvoted in any other type of game for example.

Zipper's logic is horrible. He more or less said "It is not the too townie fallacy, you are definately trying to make yourself look town by doing very townie things" complete wifom and the too townie fallacy. How do you want me to respond, it is horrible logic.

Meanwhile we need to find another target.

vote tanstalas

aforementioned rolefishing among other things. Maybe I will explain harder.

[boberz]

No he didn't, the town got owned by scum making him do that.

Why aren't you voting andrew.

[boberz]

Also @all but especially @zipper. I am no KingoWagons what I believe is very common in the real games elsewhere in the forum. I am not some uber wagony town player.

[boberz]

Ok RQS results collated. Why did you not answer HB?

1) Are you having fun yet?

Zipper: "Yes"

Park: I am...wishing to have fun at the moment

boberz: I am always having fun on MS

chess: Yes

Panda: Yes, i am absolutely. This is my first game on MafiaScum, but i have the feeling its going to be a nice game!

1=2: Allergies are currently annoying me, so no...

Commie: I'm currently doing this instead of my summer history assignment so I'll say yes


2) Chocolate or vanilla?

Zipper: Vanilla

Park: Chocolate, natch

boberz: Vanilla

chess: Vanilla

Panda: Vanilla Townie

1=2: Ginger, but I'll choose vanilla if there's blackberry involved

Commie: As far as Ice cream goes, Vanilla all the way


3) How many Mafia games have you played (here or elsewhere)?

Zipper: 2 ongoing games here, 1 I replaced into & this one. +30 at Paranoia Paradise. You can see my game history HERE

Park: I have played two games here already

boberz:Here, not quite 10 I think. Loads and loads of f2f.

chess: I've played mafia for a long time in person, but this will be my first online game

panda: As said before, this is my first Mafia game here. I've never played online before, but i got quite some real life experience

1=2:5 games on a website elsewhere, many more IRL

Commie: Too many to count. I used to play live sessions with friends until that kinda stopped happening, and I currently play quick-paced, chatroom based games on another site.


4) Lynch all Liars?

Zipper: Yes

Park: Yes. But we have to remember not all mafias lie.

boberz: Let's say we will and then assess the situation in context (I realise that I have just said I wont pretty much, but it is a newbie game and I dont want to mislead.

chess: No - Lying does not necessarily imply scumminess

panda: No, lying is a part of the game, and it can help both town and scum side

1=2: Usually, but not always

Commie: Policy lynches make commie sad


5) Math or Sports?

Zipper: Real men like both.

Park: Maths. But I love table-tennis, soccer, and badminton.

boberz: Darts

chess: Math (But chess is definitely a sport

panda: Sports

1=2: Math, both if the sport is biking or frisbee

Commie: Sports, though it depends on the sport I suppose...


6) Lynch all Lurkers?

Zipper: Yes & Replace all inactives

Park: Lurkers? Well, saying less stuff makes the mafias conveniently survive (as less flaws and evidences will be found in their words) so lurking itself is suspicious. Have to say YES to lynching lurkers.

boberz: Repeat Lynch all liars response

ches: I have a position on this I use in real-life games for people who aren't contributing, but I'll mention it if/when it comes to it.

panda: Only if we've got no other lead to lynch someone else

1=2: If Lurking means not posting at all:

Unless we have leads and they aren't being replaced quickly, sure. Considering the nature of this site, though, they will probably be replaced quickly

If Lurking means not posting for a bit and then saying "I don't have that much to say":

That adds to a case against him. Let's find more stuff before we lynch him

Commie: See #4, although this one I'm more likely to get behind if it's super excessive and they're not contributing.


7) What do you think of the RVS?

Zipper: It serves a purpose, but the sooner it is over the better. Although, I enjoy witty random remarks during any point in the game, as long as you are being serious as well.

Park: Random Votes? I hate it.

boberz: Hate it. I prefer the RQS, I prefer even more real cases

chess: Either is fine, although RQS seems more focused at starting discussion relevant to the game which can give information

panda: I think RVS is a way to quickly get some activity in the game, and it forces lurkers to post more often

1=2: Ambivalence, I have never actually utilized the results from RVS, so this is the first game that I'll try to

Commie: It makes me giggle. And by that I mean if it helps get stuff started, then I'm all for it. But whatever works, works.

Analysis will come later.

[boberz]

Zipper. I read that explain what you want me to say exactly. What do you want me to answer to.

I gave up taking it seriously when you claim I contradicted myself in RQS, I did not. I am being friendly to you because your not scum, but I can be horrible.

For the record I am not scum zipper is not scum but he is tunnelling me because he dislikes my playstyle. Did I think chess was scum, he was as likely as everyone else. Did I think panda was scum at that time, no.

Also for the record. Zipper reckons I was scummy enough to be lynched in 4 pages! Really?

!

I repeat my request to zipper to get off his fat buttocks and do some work for this game.

[boberz]

However by the time I made the 'there is a case for pandascum,' post there was a case for pandascum. Nobody else liked it but I may as well make it.

---

RQS: Panda's reference to Vanilla Townie, and him being quite so excited about the game is evidence to him having a more special game than usual. Ie not a VT, and I do not have a pr read on him. SO scum.

Further:

No, lying is a part of the game, and it can help both town and scum side.

I completely second your point that lying should not be done if you are town.

That is getting pretty close to a contradiction.

boberz, i have to say you have a very active scum-hunt attitude, but i like that

Buddying me the most active scumhunter. Maybe I had got his partner making even more scared, in fact in the rest of that post he asks why I have moved off chess.
IN fact there are a few other examples of his buddying me.

Lots of lurky posts:
'wagon favourite word'
'time zone'
etc.

Flying under the radar slightly.

---

Is zipper an IC??? If he is I may have to redo my read. (I am not an IC if that plural ICs was aimed at me. I have more than enough games to be though) Cheers for the reread Commie, I did call zipper's bluff asking for one, glad I came out looking better.

[boberz]

He is not

[boberz]

I think there is only one.

[boberz]

I do think lying is scummy, but I dont think that only scum do it. Hence I threaten to lynch all liars but actually read it in context when it comes to it. As I explained earlier, anyone who showed any signs of thinking lying was at all a town play I jumped on to teach them a lesson. Zipper I have answered the rest of that paragraph several times, you are clearly not reading it. Go and find my answer and quote it to yourself. I am fed up with answering to you.

AtE is a crap tell, and I have clearly been doing it in a joking manner. Not meaning to be hateful, I can hardly really accuse you of having fat buttocks I have no idea who you are. Consider it a compliment that you are worth insulting. But honestly if you were offended I apologise, but it was meant jokingly.

I read your PBPA, but any PBPA that concludes that nearly every post is scummy is not worth a dime. So I just couldnt be bothered to refute it. Make a proper case I will answer it but I am not going to even bother retorting to the 'boberz is clearly trying to appear town' case; when all it is is me appearing town. Bugger me do you want me to act like scum for you?

Park is not being lynched.

I deal in absolutes. I don't know for sure, but I dont want everyone turning on you just because they see you are tunnelling and not using clear logic. So in my own fine way I am defending you. You have the tunnelling townie about you, it used to be the worst thing about my game.

No zipper, you are yet to make a credible case worth refuting you can not expect the whole town to refute your accusations on me just because you disagree.

@all zipper remains fail town.

---

oo this has put me off somewhat I need to find scum, stop distracting me zipper.

[boberz]

Not good enough HB!!! I cannot post properly tonight, panda definately has something to comment on.

[boberz]

OK I may not be around for a while.

Kison, I'll protect Boberz tonight.

You had better protect park!!! (but nice to see that I am town)

Unfortuantly we have given scum a massive advantage and may as well only have all VTs now, but I am sure the IC will explain in endgame (or now in fact). As far as I am concerned that confirms HB no questions. In fture send your night actions by PM to the mod during the night HB, I expect it says this in your PM if you read it closer. But no worries, we can live with it.

It what context would you not LaL, since clearly there is a time when you wouldn't

It matters not.

But I maintain I always LAL unless I don't. If you can't work out the whole point behind that statement then I am afraid you will hve to live in expectation (until endgame when all is explained as a rule)

He blasted me for my attack on Boberz, yet he never refuted any of my points. Instead he tried to use my actions to paint me in a negative light, while ignoring all my points. I feel like he is trying to deflect my case on Boberz by starting a case on me.

Tunnelling hypocrite.

he has done some seriously scummy things.

He hasn't.

Can someone point me to Boberz case on Panda please?

You just did a detaile diso PBPA of me!!!! Someone tell this man off!!!!

[boberz]

If the context doesn't matter about using Lylo

(I assume this means LaL

, then why grill everyone else about when they think it's ok to lie? You got onto them saying they were answering the question in the context of a beginner game, were you no doing the same thing?

You really need to go back and read this part properly. I am not even being obstructive now (I was earlier) but you have really misunderstood. I 100% believe in context I am a massive advocate of contextualising everything. I do not believe lying can help town in a newbie I think it very rarely helps in a proper game (and no player other than me hit a good reason to lie ever) but town do it sometimes so I have to analyse it in context. But I threaten LaL (and usually LaL) to stop people lying. Simples.

---

...but I think it's enough to hang him for...
...Confirm Vote: Boberz

I'll do more later if I have time...

So you hadn't actually read the rest of it and were going to fabricate it to look scummy?

[boberz]

Then how can you find someone scummy for believing the same thing you believe?

You are sending me in circles (in itself scummy in a proper game) and I am getting fed up of absolute inability to read english.

My request to zipper is to go and quote the place where I last explained this to him.

Both people you attacked for not following LaL,

Untrue.

believed that it was acceptable in certain circumstances

Untrue exempting bulletproof exampleclearly irrelevant (and which I show is irrelevant to them by questioning something you have already accepted)

It is certainly not what I exactly believe.

It is not a contradiction.

[boberz]

Further:

No, lying is a part of the game, and it can help both town and scum side.

I completely second your point that lying should not be done if you are town.

That is getting pretty close to a contradiction.

Is this your so called catch on panda? I don't see this as a contradiction.

Lying is a part of the game, it can help town or scum (depending on context, probably never in newbie), although town should never lie because it'll almost always backfire.

Just because an action can be helpful, doesn't mean one should do it. It's better to not lie and rely on logic, even though town might catch scum using both methods.

That is why it is very close to a catch. Rather than a catch. I do not believe he had really thought that hard about liars >> that even if it helps town, town should not lie etc etc. It is possible he had done all these implications in his head but if so I am suprised he went to such a subtle difference without explaining so. I dont believe him, but it is possible. But

in context

I thought it unlikely so shouted it as a probable contradiciton.

[boberz]

Your bulletproof example doesn't qualify, since you answered the question in relation to game-type.

Is there any context where it's acceptable to lie as town in a newb? By your answer in the RQS, you implied that the answer is yes.

I did not imply yes at all. I most certainly maintain no!!! Please read harder.

I imply there are times when I would not LAL, big difference.

[boberz]

Are you not attacking them because they think lying is acceptable in certain context? If this isn't why you are attacking them, then please clarify your reasoning for finding them scummy.

I was (key word) not attacking them for them thinking lying is acceptable, but more that I didnt want them lying and pointing back at the RQS as reasoning. Zipper do something useful or get a proper job and flake.

[boberz]

Let's say we will and then

assess the situation in context

. In what context would you not LaL, obviously you thought this might come up, otherwise you would have simply said yes.

Read and take notes zipper. I would asses the situation in context. Meaning I cant tell you specific situation becuase I am waiting for one.

So, know you say you didn't think they were scum, but if they were scum you didn't want them to lie and point back at there answer as an excuse to lie. Of course, what good is that as an excuse? They'd still be lynched.

Thy were more likely to be scum than others. But I had no idea we wer two pages in. If you cant work out why forcing people to play as well as they can, in an informed way to their win condition then there is nothing I can do to help you.

[boberz]

Zipper.

There is no sitation where lying is helpful to town (in a newbie).
There are situations whee town will lie. I ll endeavour not to lynch onef these people.

See why it is not a contradiction yet.

---

"What made them more likely to be scum?"

The fact they had given theselves a possible excuse to lie.

[boberz]

We are not lynching either of the PRs, uncounterclaimed andrew.

Why exactly does this confirm HB in your mind?

NewbScum don't do that (they are not thinking about docs fake claims etc etc. ExpScum don't do that because they are not thick.

I think you are failtown HB.

---

p.s: If Humphrey is an actual doctor, how nice of him to protect someone whom in his opinion thinks is not scum. He didn't protect me just because I claimed cop, but he protects someone who he really thinks will get night-attacked.

For the record I strongly doubt park is a cop. Bugger me he doesnt believe his own claim.

---

But more importantly Zipper has just slipped. We have scum guys.

He said the following:

I think Boberz means, it's nice to know that the Doc thinks he is town.

"The Doc" he says this as though the doc is 100% a doc. He does not know this even I who am very sure of his claim didnt go quite that far.

But furthermore. I actually said it is glad to know

you

(meaning hb) think I am town. Zipper turned this into he is glad the doc thinks I am town.

A slip a slip a slip.

L-1 here we come!!!

unvote: some mug
vote: zipper

[boberz]

dude ur just copying what i said before
my post 283

No I amnot a hacksaw defenceis not what I am suggesting and they dont work anyway unless you know one allignment.

<- Confused. So you are saying he is scum because he knows we have a doc? If he is scum he would know who was town and who was scum I agree but he would not know who has a PR and what that would be?

I may be missing something here.. Sorry, been up way too long, thank god my shift is almost over.. and I volunteered for OT six 12 hour nightshifts in a row != fun

Also I take offense to the "some mug" comment

He knows that if have a cop if he is scum, he nows whether there is a cop and a doc or not. So when a doc claim comes he knows for defo whether it is right or not. So it is a slip if he reveals that he knows the alignment of someone.

[boberz]

a new light bulb just popped out on my head ----> zipper is defending bogart---- who trusts boberz --- who zipper thinks is scum
this is what i said, ur just saying same thing?

No I am not. I am saying "zipper knows there is a doc, he is scum" completely different.

@andrew. If you had been reading I have shouted zipper as town several times, he is not my old enemy. Go and have a look at some of my old games look at how I have intereacted with players such as ksen, aclockworkmelon and herd. Zipper is wrong and has been tunnelling me, but it has not meant I have tunnelled him back, I have just been distracted with stupidity.

[boberz]

It wasnt just a belief of a claim. Everyone read back it was a slip.

Zipper you need to learnt he difference between scumhunting and just getting in the way.

If people are poking other people you should not join in, you prevent a read on those other people.

Zipper, OMGUS, WIFOM, chainsaw, hacksaw etc etc.... Wont work with me, I just simply dont commit them. Anything on the wiki I can avoid (and so can everyone else I am not some super player) so using them against me is just showing you are scraping the bottom of the barrel.

And calling someone's claim BS (which it might not be just hypothesising) is not WIFOM.

[boberz]

I don't deny you believe his claim. But what you did betrayed allignment, it went further than just believing it.

It was not wifom imo because he is not in a position to be thinking about it, particularly as a newb.

I only ignore the stupid questions zipper I answer some of your points. They were not personal attacks you do honestly need to know what is scumhunting and what is answering someone elses question.

Just amuse us and make a case on someone different.

@all others, I realise zipper has distracted me I was a massive scumhunter but it has not happened for me recently will do my best to correct this.

---

AtE isnt a scumtell unless in very particular circumstances. In fact for me it is potentially a town tell.

@alltown. Zipper is literally reading me with scumtinted eyes if he is town (or is trying to look like that as scum) every post I make is scummy apparently. This really cannot be true. Not every word I write can be scummy; surely this proves he is tunnelling.

Could be worth a policy lynch the day before lylo if we have to.

[boberz]

btw tan. By "some mug" I merely meant whoever it was on, meaning I didnt know who it was (although I did) and I didnt care. A way of making that bit look flipant. Quite a common phrase where I come from, it wasnt offensive to you.

[boberz]

@evrone other than zipper: do you want me to answer zipper?

[boberz]

Earlier you stated that tunneling was a town tell!

This is wrong tough, I never said it. Nor do I believe it isa cumtell always either.

Answer the questions I posed earlier. I really want the answers to them

That's nice.Tbh I can even remember the questions, but I do not take you seriously.

---

I am stuck in a quadry I hate people suspecting me, just because I see it as a fault in my town game. But I do not know what to do. I could drown him in words but he would find it scummy. I could ignore him but he finds it scummy. I could just rant at him, but he finds him scummy. I can answer his questions but then he just waits a page or two then asks them again. He is most certainly tunnelling, but I am no longer ocnvinced as to the allignment.

---

I understand and support the unvote so long as we keep im under pressure dont let it be a way out.

---
@andrew he specifically asks for nswers to questions.

[boberz]

Slip:

I think Boberz means, it's nice to know that the Doc thinks he is town.

1) explain how thats a slip

He reveals he knows wtchamecallit (HB) is a doc, this means he knows he is town alligned. He knows the allignments therefore he is scum.

2) explain how he thinks its not a slip

Zipper suggest he believed the claim so he was just describing HB as a doc assuming he was.

---

Read in context I think it does not read as he describes at all. But he has not exactly covered himself in MS glory so I am slightly backing off from my "we have found scum" comment, but it has still made him very scummy in my eyes.

[boberz]

do mine first then answer (i hate long wall of text)

I am afraid I am going to insist you read the current ones, I dont do the walls for my own amusement.

And if you want me to answer him he is going to be flooded with words, I meanparagraphs in response to every small point I have left unanswered.

[boberz]

Why do we have 2 people on a potential doc, when we have a potential cop on the loose. Think about even if he is lying we cannot take the risk.

Panda will probably flake,meaning we have had no read off of him for ages and he will not respond to the cases made.

So all in all we have run out of scum suspects.

[boberz]

But I have answered both those things just without quoting you zipper. I have avoided questions but not those ones.

Question 1/ I will evaluate the context as and if it arises. It is very rare I willlet someone get away with lying.

Question 2/ They suggested it might be in town's interest to lie I did not. Key difference. I have said this many times now zipper you need to learn to apply reading comprehension skills to my posts in future.

[boberz]

I didnt quite follow it, couls somebody explain it again please?

[boberz]

I don't agree with your recent cases andrew, commie RC or tan. I think tan might be scum for other reasons though.

[boberz]

dont understand did boberz and zipper just say each other is townie

I had said so many times until his slip, now I am not sure.

[boberz]

I think I have already posted some:

Basically it was primarilly rolefishing, tan has already responded re this though and I am not willing to rehash quite an old case that tan answrred well. I was not 100% convinced though.

May have a flick through his iso, need to do yours as well actually andrew.

[boberz]

I don't see him choosing to say "the doc" as opposed to "the claimed doc" as being scummy at all

Most of us would have just said his name.

Again no contradiction, I believe his claim for now. It is certainly not something we need to discuss now. For now. I am not talking to everybody as if I know the alignments.

[boberz]

Please dont try and play to a meta if it is bad play.

[boberz]

Ok this wagon on me is stupid. Someone other than zipper make a point against me and maybe it will gain a bit of credibility.

@RC, Andrew panda and tan. You are all on wagons of 1 this is pointless anti town and is only a way of avoiding making a proper decision. Either coordinate on one of the targets, or show intent on a current wagon.

As I have said a few times now, I am much less concerned about zipper's slip than I initially was but it still gives him scum points. We need panda replaced he was scummy.

[boberz]

Ok this wagon on me is stupid. Someone other than zipper make a point against me and maybe it will gain a bit of credibility.

@RC, Andrew panda and tan. You are all on wagons of 1 this is pointless anti town and is only a way of avoiding making a proper decision. Either coordinate on one of the targets, or show intent on a current wagon.

As I have said a few times now, I am much less concerned about zipper's slip than I initially was but it still gives him scum points. We need panda replaced he was scummy.

how is it anti town
i use MY vote to vote someone i think is scum, its not my fault you guys just say 'nah his alright'
you really sound like your trying to influence me into voting zipper or something

Zipper, or me, or coordinate onto another candidate ie exactly what I said, (dont misrep me again or I will have you strung up!!!) this is apparently going to be panda. Which is a wagon I have done some of the leg work for fortuantly (menaing I am not wholly against it).

---

I understand people who think zipper and I are just bickering townies. I would argue that it is he who has tunnelled, those who have seen my meta will testify that I could have gone a lot more skits over it than i did.

But I will

unvote vote panda

, we give replacements too easy a time anyway. Time to put a replacement under some heat.

[boberz]

unvote

andrew explain that.

[boberz]

That's not such a risky move from your end, I think. If you make this day's lynch into you versus zipper, you'll probably pull out ahead. We've got time before the deadline, so there's no sense in rushing to our votes to one of you guys. The Mod replaced before, surely he won't let the Panda situation drag out until nightfall.

Wagons are not always lynch wagons. I will quite happily take 4 votes if it organises the town. If targets are spread so widely, less mistakes are made and it is harder to find them when they are made. It is really bad for town. Town needs organising somehow, and my ploy worked.

In this situation I don't think it means much other than maybe the Mod isn't paying as close of attention to the game as we would like.

Seconded.

---

RC your town, Im town. Let's work together

andrew has done some strange stuff and held some strange opinions, for example:

The 'I can vote whoever I think is scummy however pointless the vote is'
The 'I think boberz is trying to lead town in a scummy way, so I am going vote exactly who he tells me to anyway'
etc.

Do you have a read on him, I do not.

---

Cross post, cheers tan.

[boberz]

But it kind of inst true either is it. If people turn town then it is as much their fault for playing bad as it is the 'scummy' players for telling them why they were playing bad. At the end of the day I sense a tincy bit of cruising about your play tan, as if you are just letting things happen around you rather than instigating things of yourself. I get the oppositew from Commie and RC.

I am prepared to go with you on andrew RC.

[boberz]

Done a bit of an iso on tan. I really am running out of targets, I don;t think he is scum.

[boberz]

Genuinly is the first game in which I have too few targets. Panda, andrew and zipper are the only people I am prepared to consider. The worst of those is getting replaced.

@mod, I assume panda is being prodded/replaced???

@mod are you allowed to pick up prods via pm rather than in thread??? If so I strongly disagree!

[boberz]

Thank you

[boberz]

The thing is I agree with you zipper, but I am keen to get a town group working together and RC doesnt like it. I am by no means confirming RC, but I feel we have to use him for a while.

[boberz]

Two things. One, you said it yourself you're having trouble with your scumreads here. Getting a group together is difficult when we're having trouble agreeing on just the basics (e.g. tans/andrew). Two, your reactions to zipper really do confuse me. Here it sounds like you're trying to get in on a group with zipper, which boggles my mind.

My solution to having poor reads is to try and find people to work with, even if I am not 100% sold on the reasoning. I have only one problem with zipper, the slip.So if he leads me somewhere bad I hit scum (with him) it is testable.

5) the 3 short sentences were the possibilities of zipper and boerz. its not obvious, some ppl might miss it

What on earth are you whittering on about now. Zipper and I might be scum partners, or townparnters or one scum and the other not. Einstein is among us /sarcasm

[boberz]

I presume you were talking about the second bit because the first bit is quite the opposite. And I am aware that is what you said, I was questioning the point of saying it. And what on earth was going on in your mind as you said it.

[boberz]

This game is boring isnt it.

[boberz]

Zipper I had three votes at one point, admittedly I ridiculed it for its stupidity and it turned out to be pretty weak,but you could have hit me harder then. You were attacking me earlier when it was just you, then when at last you get your wagon you do little to stop it falling apart, why?

[boberz]

Zipper is agreeing with someone a town tell for them? New to me, but if you can justify it I will go along with it.

[boberz]

Hi drm.

Three main reasons:
Panda is scummy
Panda is scummy
Panda is scummy

In other news: reread please drm (or have you already?)

[boberz]

No worries man, no talk of active games though.

[boberz]

Anyway, how you getting on with that read?
Found scum yet?

[boberz]

boberz never pushed a lynch early in the day.
boberz can coach as much as he likes so long as town win (or do better than they would have done without the coaching)
---
I will be here with you on this reread I sense I am going to enjoy it.

[boberz]

Really. If this is a stream of conciousness,please make it a tad more relevant or we are going to spam the thread to oblivion.

What do you mean finally, I refuse to not scumhunt in early game.

Please remove the following from your vocab it will help: OMGUS, IIoA, OMGUS and chainsaw defence (partucularly the last one) they do not work.

I have never seen a point system before, it is like getting into Australia with a work permit. I like it.

[boberz]

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

Check it if you want. Even the guy who is willing to lynch them onsite says it is invalid untill you know an allignment.

Do you know the aligments drm?

[boberz]

Chainsaw deffenses like the one in this game are scum tells, mainly because the person being deffended attempted to coach the deffender into stopping him deffense.

Your wrong, but rather than just answering try some logic behind telling me why I am wrong. Finished your read yet?

[boberz]

How do you even know it is a chainsaw defence and they are not.

Explain to me why they are scummy, try it. Go on I dare you.

[boberz]

Calm down it's only...

But okay when most people use chainsaw they tend to mean scum defending other scum. So I just assumed you meant that. However zipper is most definately guilty of chainsawing atleast two different people.

Chainsawing is essentially just defending someone else, it is just given a horribly dodgy name. If you truly think it can only be in scum (or whoever else you mention) interests to defend people then you are mistaken, although I agree nobody should preempt someone elses answers. However I really object to you attacking zipper for it, at the end of the day it is clearly not scummy for him, he does it to everyone has justified it and stands by it. It simply is not scummy in context.

In fact it is not scummy at all because so many town do it and defend doing it that I will only accept it as a tell if it against meta/ I know atleast one alignment.

Meanwhile

vote drm

done nothing to redeem his player spot.

[boberz]

EBWOP:

But okay when most people use chainsaw they tend to mean scum defending other scum. So I just assumed you meant that. However zipper is most definately guilty of chainsawing atleast two different (potential townies obv) people.

[boberz]

Indeed, but in essence that equates to defending because it refers to attacking the attack of your partner. Tbh I dont really care about this debate. You are wrong and ahve failed at justifying it. And if even the people who discover/invent the tell disagree with you then there is nothing that can be said really.

And it is a perfectly fine reason to vote for someone. A very scummy spot is replaced by a player who makes a thinly justified attack at a large wagon that coincidentally the person you called out as town helped fuel. I dont think that is going to wash.

[boberz]

Tbh your spot is much more use to us dead than alive, VT or not drm.

We do need to take a much harder look at zipper tomorrow with that though. Did not give anyone else a chance to evaluate the new player. Not a good hammer zipper.

[boberz]

Hi sorry, I have been VLA for the weekend and still am tosayd (this is the LA bit)

all looks very interesting. I agree with tan but I am going to have to think a bit harder. If it is zipper he had me good.

[boberz]

I am back home now, but still need to think.

[boberz]

vote zipper

His claim doesnt ring true with day 1 play.

[boberz]

sorry that was really meant to be park. I was tired lat night confused games.

unvote

Happy to hammer tbh but I will leave it for a little bit.

[boberz]

No I mean I am happy for a hammer to occur. Not that I was about to do it.

[boberz]

(will should have been would)

But you are right I am massively tired.

[boberz]

its L2 ??

u look REALLY tired i see you havent been reading my posts at all.

or it could be a scum ploy of making someone L1....

Ok I am awake now and this is a ridiculus post. Granted I made a mistake, but I had read your post sigular (only one of value and I had read it and ignored it as obvious anyway). It is zipper's that I hadn't completely taken in. that was a very self centered post andrew.

I am a tad worried with killing park because he is uncounterclaimed. But the question is raised why is he not dead.

3 options:
1/ He is scum
2/ There is a doc who is not HB
3/ Scum believed HB more than they believed Park's claim. But they made a pretty poor decision in this case however.

---

[boberz]

1) This is the correct option.

Very potentially.

Doc's should always counter claim if possible

This is right, but we have witnessed newbs in this game already and I am a tad worried there may be another waiting in the wings.

Second problem, if he had another Doc and Park is Cop, then scum would have a roleblocker who would have blocked the claimed cop.

But this is something I had not really thought about fully and you are right.

3) But if they didn't have a roleblocker, then they had no reason to believe HB's claim in the first place.

This is my point. If they didnt have a roleblocker then they would be choosing between HB and park for which claim they believed. So they know at least one of them is failtown and kill whichever they think is less failtown.

[boberz]

Considering the way HB claimed their would ahve been huge amounts of WIFOM invovled. Remember the extent of newbishness already evident in this game. Of course you and I would kill the cop but tbh would failscum, no.

Not that I am wholly against killing park sounds quite exciting really.

[boberz]

andrew we are all deliberately not talking about that post. We all know where we are in the game but it is our job to win.

[boberz]

"I think RC has a good chance at being park's scum buddy."

I agree

[boberz]

*head desk* in future everyone listen to me int he early game and we win.

Zipper is scum.

dont know exactly about Zipper (i bluffed) but by doing this, I am 100% sure now that ANDREW94 is scum.

Maybe but how on earth do you arrive at this conclusion.

Mass claim tomorrow.

Well done fakeclaimers you have successfully lost this game both for you and your team. Great play. /sarcasm

I am actually annoyed. We went through all the situations people should lie and nobody found any acceptable ones, yet we end up with two failures who should have listened to me in the first placed.

*boberz leaves actually angry (in a game context of course)*

[boberz]

And zipper can still be scum!!! Because HB was lying as well. I am so depressed about this game now.

RC is like definately scum as well as Commie and andrew and zipper. Bugger me they're all scum.

*withdraws into a hole in the foetal position scared for the sanity of town although well aware he made an impossible statement eve he didnt believe*

[boberz]

I thought it was quite reserved considering.

[boberz]

What are you saying what to?

I think Commie was quite reserved considering.

[boberz]

vote RC

It is him, everyone.

I dont even care who with anymore. It is him.

[boberz]

u completely disregarded my previous 'use fos post'
u vote him with no reasoning?

I have reasoning.

And, there is no need to wait.

You have not invented the use FOS thing, but in this case there is no need.

[boberz]

unvote

I do have a serious point or two on RC but it will wait till I have time to make a case properly.

[boberz]

Okay primarilly RC is an IC alive this long. This tell shouldnt work but it always does.

RC shouldnt have to use self meta as a way to try and make me back down. (although I am keen to see a meta of each allignment please RC)

There is more but I still dont have time. Monday is better for me.

[boberz]

vt, this is a tad pointless however.

[boberz]

RC it is 100% you:

andrew, I really don't think it matters. If someone claims anything besides VT then I may never played a newbie game ever again.

But, please, be my guest.

Blatant coaching.

When RC suggested scum would not lay the first vote it was just a load of authority. I intended to come out all guns blazing for zipper, but not vote (I did vote to try and see RC's reaction) it is clearly RC.

He is alive, which is a tell that does work. I dont care if people have told you it doesnt work, but I challenge andrew and tan to find one game where a town IC (who isnt lurking massively) has survived this far.

[boberz]

I asked you if you thought that was something I'd do as scum; I didn't suggest anything.

Ok it was WIFOM and self meta then. Two other things I dont like.

whos know if your/someone else is trying to frame

Shut up this line of questioning doesnt help town creates loads of waffle and fluff. Worst of all means you are not contributing.

Just checked 3 games, found one on the third game I checked.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14662

That is honestly the first time anyone has found it after I have given that challenge. Scum lost, and largely because the left The Fonz alive. But it is still very very rare. It is not policy in a bad way because I believe this policy actually gets scum 90something % of the time.

[boberz]

Someone unvote, I do not think it is tan.

[boberz]

Well, I was settled on Boberz or RC being scum, though I do not think they are together. The fact that you had the chance to hammer there and did not makes me feel safe to:

Vote: RC

err wait you could be SCUM
and he could be your partner/ townie

hope zipper gets on to comment sigh

You do need to stop being suspicious of everyone, you need to rely on town to help you it is on your side (more than half of it anyway) this means you must work with them.

[boberz]

Before today I was pretty certain it was our friend zipper, now I think it is RC.

vote zipper

I do not think it is andrew.

I am not willing to lynch tan today.

(Note if I am scum, it must be with tan this much is proven)

[boberz]

Grow up zipper, that could be said by anyone in the game at any vote.

Do something usefull.

[boberz]

Find scum for us. Make a nice proper case or explain fully what is in your head (without any wifom) explain who is and isnt scum in your eyes.

[boberz]

don't understand why you are voting for me if you are certain it's RC...

I am not certain of anyhting anymore.

I am voting for you for all the scummy reasons I outlined in earlier days. Especially your interactions yesterday which reeked of scum.

If tans and I were scum we would probably have won by now, ie I would not ahve moved onto you adn just pushed RC harder. I reckon I could get a third on that wagon if I tried.

[boberz]

You are right that two lies have ruined the game I have lost all motivation.

[boberz]

why is it not good andrew. It is so unlikely to be RC and you together it is unbelievable.

I have contradicted myself a lot. Basically you moved from very scummy to obvious VI today.

Zipper is in some mad quasi scummy quasi strange position.

RC is scum I reckon.

I am not willing to lynch tan.

This is my current position.

[boberz]

Explain how my interactions reeked of scum yesterday, when you were pushing me as townie yesterday... if I reeked of scum, why then vote to lynch claimed cop?

Your interactions yesterday (ie in light of the flip) now appear scummy. As I pointed out in twighlight, and as RC correctly quoted me earlier today. That is why i specified interactions.

---

Actually, with three of us voting, it's most probable that both scum are voting for separate people and one townie is voting... which leads me to believe the scum team is boberz and tans.

Why is this more likely at all. It is actually suboptimal,but admittedly leads downinto wifom.

Besides, it's a better strategic position for both scum to vote for different people if both decide to vote early in LyLo, then wait for a town to follow them with a vote, which would allow their partner to unvote and hammer ftw.

Not necessarily optimal at all. any incorrect vote by town can lead to a loss if scum are online together, so what you are saying is just pointless.

[boberz]

I didnt vote anyone because I didnt know who to vote for.

I dont know how zipper knows if two scum are already voting,it is by no means certain. If it were that easy town would win muchmore games than it does. THinking and doing that just lead to wifom.

[boberz]

andrew has wifomed himself to death and is useless to us atm.

[boberz]

Zipper. Scum Might not be voting.

Scum might be bussing (although very very unlikely) but possible, a bus now would probably win them the game.

Evenin the situations you claim scum would have already won scum would not necessarily have won the game, because they cannot organise themselves to get a quick hammer. They do not have day talk.

There is no reason for scum to already be voting. However your insistence in deciding that scum are definately already voting is only a scummy factor for you in my book.

[boberz]

What scummy behaviour on day 1 zipper. You lost that argument I hope you realise. We can ahve it again if you want. My day 1 play is consistent both with how I normally play, how I argue on MD and what I have said and done in this game.

I was by no means safe on you yesterday, but your arguments were better than park's. And we now know why (because he was a lying failtown of a person).

But now you are the obvious target, it really does make sense.

RC let's go for it on zipper, we may have lost but tbh I dont care. I want the game to be over.

[boberz]

Zipper. Scum Might not be voting.

Scum might be bussing (although very very unlikely) but possible, a bus now would probably win them the game.

Evenin the situations you claim scum would have already won scum would not necessarily have won the game, because they cannot organise themselves to get a quick hammer. They do not have day talk.

There is no reason for scum to already be voting. However your insistence in deciding that scum are definately already voting is only a scummy factor for you in my book.

I hadn't realized scum couldn't talk at night, in my normal meta scum can communicate outside of the thread at any time. Even in this case, it's not that hard to plan to be on at the same time.

It's Lylo, town only needs one slip up, scum would be fools to bus. Now, that's not say they wouldn't vote for their scum buddy, but with three votes on the table for more than 24hrs if there was a townie voting a townie then this game would be over. However, scum would never lynch their own over a townie in Lylo, it's impossible.

Sorry they cant talk during the dya. They can talk at night.

They still might not be voting yet. It wouldnt necessarily be over with a townie voting a townie because scum would be worried about getting found out and spotted. To quick hammer they need to be online together, they cannot daytalk and have no guarentee of this.

[boberz]

4 lying townies. And RC is scum I am pisssed.

[boberz]

I just skimmed didnte even read just saw the hammer and claims.

Meanwhile I think this is the worst game I have ever been in I have hated it.

[boberz]

Yeah, that was good work guys. Especially you, andrew, I thought you played the newbie card very well.

Personally I'd prefer a game where the town can work together instead of just looking out for themselves (i.e. fakeclaiming).

I was run ragged I lost control of the game and gave up when the fakeclaims happened.

[boberz]

But well done scum, you did take full advantage and deserved the win.

[boberz]

Can I see the scum qt?

[boberz]

I wasnt tunnelling zipper, I honestly wasnt. I was wrong granted, but I wasnt tunnelling. I was a tad suspicious of RC from gut since the start of day 2 but I oculdnt put any words to it so I just left it there.

But it wasnt tunnelling zipper. But I was wrong an=d apologise.

Once the lying scumbags return I am going to do my first ever I told you so post. I dontcare what it looks like but it was a disgrace.

---

Crosspost, that should teach you something zipper.

[boberz]

Do you really mean that HB?

[boberz]

Did you find scum? Did you help us find scum? Might you have drawn out the real cop too early? Might we have had another doc who counterclaimed you? Might you have drawn out the other doc and made him a nightkill target? Did you find scum? Did you convince us you had found scum?

But hey who cares you avoided lynch and got the NK. Selfish boy.

[boberz]

Well done guys especially tan, I really didnt think you were mafia.

[boberz]

I have seen some very nooby Se's andrew. Even noobier than you were pretending to be.

[boberz]

Humphrey, you call me a moron? How dare you. LOL.
But, seriously. That wasn't nice.
I wanted myself to draw nightkill.

I can think of much worse things to call you.

Once you claim guilty we have to lynch one of you. get that, you usurp the whole of towns brainpower because of your alledged read. What you did was so wrong it is unbelievable

[boberz]

How can you expedct anyone to believe your final breath assertions.

But why not weigh inon the lying discussion early, rather than just lie later.

Dont you dare blame this on the rest of town. You calling out andrew as scum only made him safer iin my eyes. That is how bad you were.

[boberz]

Being a VT does not give you liscence to lie.

[boberz]

I am going to request that you do not lie in any of those situations you have just described because it will just get you into deep doodoo

In a newbie game I strongly feel there is no situation where it will help. If you can give one then I will hear you out, but at the moment I can't see it.

Serious point: there seriously is no reason to lie (if you are town) please dont do it. It will end up in trouble and potentially make us lose. If you need to convince somebody just use argument and logic rather than lying about something.

Parknourie needs to improve massively.

But of course it is townies job to lie, so how dare I criticise our friends.

[boberz]

Thanks Commie, it is not meant to be offensive and it is not my real personality (the internet does horrible things) I am less agressive in MD.