Newbie 999 - Game Over

[zipperflesh]

I'm going to have to go back over the last two pages, there is definitely some stuff I want to reply to but I'm short on time this weekend. I'm reading, but not replying... will get it to it soon.

[Kison]

Day One Vote Count

zipperflesh (

3

) : CommieX, parknourie, HumphreyBogart
tanstalas (

2

) : Pandabeer, boberz
boberz (

1

) : zipperflesh
Pandabeer (

1

) : RedCoyote
HumphreyBogart (

1

) : andrew94

Not Voting (

1

) : tanstalas

With

9

alive, it will take

5

votes to lynch.

The day's deadline is currently set to:

September 11th, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST

[HumphreyBogart]

OK I may not be around for a while.

Kison, I'll protect Boberz tonight.

[zipperflesh]

I'm going to start with this:

Fine then, let's get back to basics.

It what context would you not LaL, since clearly there is a time when you wouldn't.

Boberz, answer the question plox.

@ park whats OTT

zipper, reasons on commie?

He blasted me for my attack on Boberz, yet he never refuted any of my points. Instead he tried to use my actions to paint me in a negative light, while ignoring all my points. I feel like he is trying to deflect my case on Boberz by starting a case on me.

im pretty sure your experienced enough to know that?
are you trying to act newb

Not trying to act newbish, totally forgot that scum would have a RB role if we had a cop and doc

I had the same thought, so I can't fault tan for the same thing. When Park claimed, I hoped he we had a Doc, but I didn't realize that that would mean scum had a roleblocker.

The problem is, you are literally talking about no one else than Boberz. That's not an exaggeration. You have, as far as the town can gather from your posts, stopped paying attention to anyone else in the game (for example, you didn't even comment on the cop claim until I started pressuring you, meanwhile you have time to compile giant lists of reasons that Boberz is scum).

I'll talk about what I see as scummy. I don't feel commenting on everything everyone has said is conductive to helping find scum, especially when my post would sometimes be nothing more than a QFT.

you said 'if hes telling the truth he will die tonight' and 'unless we have a doc as well'

part 2 of that means that there must be a rb which u suspiciously neglected to say. that is the basics of my suspisions

At first I thought your suspicions of tan were ungrounded, but after reading a second time, I think I get your point. Although, since I had the same thought I'm not sure if it's a genuine slip or just player nature. I always hope there is a Doc in the game when I see an early cop claim.

Boberz, I think you're clean

Unvote, vote Zipper

Explain your vote plox.

I tend to agree with this. zipper means well, I think, but whenever the person making a case feels the need to comment on every post and explain how it's scummy it almost automatically feels artifical and forced.

I actually almost never comment on every post, but this time every post of Boberz hit me as scummy. Granted, I may be tunneling, but he has done some seriously scummy things.

----

Can someone point me to Boberz case on Panda please? I seemed to have missed it completely.

[zipperflesh]

OK I may not be around for a while.

Kison, I'll protect Boberz tonight.

O... M... G...

If this a newb mistake and not a clever scum ploy, then andrew must be right about tan.
UNVOTE: boberz VOTE: tanstalas

[RedCoyote]

OK I may not be around for a while.

Kison, I'll protect Boberz tonight.

Hmmm... why would you protect boberz over Park?

[CommieX]

OK I may not be around for a while.

Kison, I'll protect Boberz tonight.

0_0...

Just...0_0...

You have GOT to be kidding me

[boberz]

OK I may not be around for a while.

Kison, I'll protect Boberz tonight.

You had better protect park!!! (but nice to see that I am town)

Unfortuantly we have given scum a massive advantage and may as well only have all VTs now, but I am sure the IC will explain in endgame (or now in fact). As far as I am concerned that confirms HB no questions. In fture send your night actions by PM to the mod during the night HB, I expect it says this in your PM if you read it closer. But no worries, we can live with it.

It what context would you not LaL, since clearly there is a time when you wouldn't

It matters not.

But I maintain I always LAL unless I don't. If you can't work out the whole point behind that statement then I am afraid you will hve to live in expectation (until endgame when all is explained as a rule)

He blasted me for my attack on Boberz, yet he never refuted any of my points. Instead he tried to use my actions to paint me in a negative light, while ignoring all my points. I feel like he is trying to deflect my case on Boberz by starting a case on me.

Tunnelling hypocrite.

he has done some seriously scummy things.

He hasn't.

Can someone point me to Boberz case on Panda please?

You just did a detaile diso PBPA of me!!!! Someone tell this man off!!!!

[zipperflesh]

I only went to page 4 in Pbpa, up until that point you had only said there was a case to be made against panda. (I believe my pbpa shows this)

If the context doesn't matter about using Lylo, then why grill everyone else about when they think it's ok to lie? You got onto them saying they were answering the question in the context of a beginner game, were you no doing the same thing?

[boberz]

If the context doesn't matter about using Lylo

(I assume this means LaL

, then why grill everyone else about when they think it's ok to lie? You got onto them saying they were answering the question in the context of a beginner game, were you no doing the same thing?

You really need to go back and read this part properly. I am not even being obstructive now (I was earlier) but you have really misunderstood. I 100% believe in context I am a massive advocate of contextualising everything. I do not believe lying can help town in a newbie I think it very rarely helps in a proper game (and no player other than me hit a good reason to lie ever) but town do it sometimes so I have to analyse it in context. But I threaten LaL (and usually LaL) to stop people lying. Simples.

---

...but I think it's enough to hang him for...
...Confirm Vote: Boberz

I'll do more later if I have time...

So you hadn't actually read the rest of it and were going to fabricate it to look scummy?

[zipperflesh]

I read it once. I have pages 1-4 twice.

I don't think it's possible to fabricate a PbPa.

[zipperflesh]

You really need to go back and read this part properly. I am not even being obstructive now (I was earlier) but you have really misunderstood. I 100% believe in context I am a massive advocate of contextualising everything. I do not believe lying can help town in a newbie I think it very rarely helps in a proper game (and no player other than me hit a good reason to lie ever) but town do it sometimes so I have to analyse it in context. But I threaten LaL (and usually LaL) to stop people lying. Simples.

Then how can you find someone scummy for believing the same thing you believe?

Both people you attacked for not following LaL, believed that it was acceptable in certain circumstances, which is EXACTLY what you believe. That is a contradiction, and that is one of the reasons I find you scummy.

[boberz]

Then how can you find someone scummy for believing the same thing you believe?

You are sending me in circles (in itself scummy in a proper game) and I am getting fed up of absolute inability to read english.

My request to zipper is to go and quote the place where I last explained this to him.

Both people you attacked for not following LaL,

Untrue.

believed that it was acceptable in certain circumstances

Untrue exempting bulletproof exampleclearly irrelevant (and which I show is irrelevant to them by questioning something you have already accepted)

It is certainly not what I exactly believe.

It is not a contradiction.

[zipperflesh]

Further:

No, lying is a part of the game, and it can help both town and scum side.

I completely second your point that lying should not be done if you are town.

That is getting pretty close to a contradiction.

Is this your so called catch on panda? I don't see this as a contradiction.

Lying is a part of the game, it can help town or scum (depending on context, probably never in newbie), although town should never lie because it'll almost always backfire.

Just because an action can be helpful, doesn't mean one should do it. It's better to not lie and rely on logic, even though town might catch scum using both methods.

[zipperflesh]

Your bulletproof example doesn't qualify, since you answered the question in relation to game-type.

Is there any context where it's acceptable to lie as town in a newb? By your answer in the RQS, you implied that the answer is yes.

[zipperflesh]

Are you not attacking them because they think lying is acceptable in certain context? If this isn't why you are attacking them, then please clarify your reasoning for finding them scummy.

[zipperflesh]

If that's not what you exactly believed, then are you not guilty of lying about your answer in RQS?

[boberz]

Further:

No, lying is a part of the game, and it can help both town and scum side.

I completely second your point that lying should not be done if you are town.

That is getting pretty close to a contradiction.

Is this your so called catch on panda? I don't see this as a contradiction.

Lying is a part of the game, it can help town or scum (depending on context, probably never in newbie), although town should never lie because it'll almost always backfire.

Just because an action can be helpful, doesn't mean one should do it. It's better to not lie and rely on logic, even though town might catch scum using both methods.

That is why it is very close to a catch. Rather than a catch. I do not believe he had really thought that hard about liars >> that even if it helps town, town should not lie etc etc. It is possible he had done all these implications in his head but if so I am suprised he went to such a subtle difference without explaining so. I dont believe him, but it is possible. But

in context

I thought it unlikely so shouted it as a probable contradiciton.

[boberz]

Your bulletproof example doesn't qualify, since you answered the question in relation to game-type.

Is there any context where it's acceptable to lie as town in a newb? By your answer in the RQS, you implied that the answer is yes.

I did not imply yes at all. I most certainly maintain no!!! Please read harder.

I imply there are times when I would not LAL, big difference.

[boberz]

Are you not attacking them because they think lying is acceptable in certain context? If this isn't why you are attacking them, then please clarify your reasoning for finding them scummy.

I was (key word) not attacking them for them thinking lying is acceptable, but more that I didnt want them lying and pointing back at the RQS as reasoning. Zipper do something useful or get a proper job and flake.

[zipperflesh]

So, know you say you didn't think they were scum, but if they were scum you didn't want them to lie and point back at there answer as an excuse to lie. Of course, what good is that as an excuse? They'd still be lynched.

[zipperflesh]

4) Lynch all Liars?

Let's say we will and then assess the situation in context (I realise that I have just said I wont pretty much, but it is a newbie game and I dont want to mislead.

Let's say we will and then assess the situation in context. In what context would you not LaL, obviously you thought this might come up, otherwise you would have simply said yes.

[boberz]

Let's say we will and then

assess the situation in context

. In what context would you not LaL, obviously you thought this might come up, otherwise you would have simply said yes.

Read and take notes zipper. I would asses the situation in context. Meaning I cant tell you specific situation becuase I am waiting for one.

So, know you say you didn't think they were scum, but if they were scum you didn't want them to lie and point back at there answer as an excuse to lie. Of course, what good is that as an excuse? They'd still be lynched.

Thy were more likely to be scum than others. But I had no idea we wer two pages in. If you cant work out why forcing people to play as well as they can, in an informed way to their win condition then there is nothing I can do to help you.

[zipperflesh]

Read and take notes zipper. I would asses the situation in context. Meaning I cant tell you specific situation becuase I am waiting for one.

In a newbie game I strongly feel there is no situation where it will help. If you can give one then I will hear you out, but at the moment I can't see it.

How can you be waiting for a specific situation that you don't believe exists? Do you see the contradiction yet?

Is there a situation where you wouldn't LaL in a newbie or isn't there?

Thy were more likely to be scum than others. But I had no idea we wer two pages in. If you cant work out why forcing people to play as well as they can, in an informed way to their win condition then there is nothing I can do to help you.

What made them more likely to be scum?

[boberz]

Zipper.

There is no sitation where lying is helpful to town (in a newbie).
There are situations whee town will lie. I ll endeavour not to lynch onef these people.

See why it is not a contradiction yet.

---

"What made them more likely to be scum?"

The fact they had given theselves a possible excuse to lie.