Newbie 980 ~ Game Over

[Mr. Flay]

Posting to say I'm here and getting this thread on my list. Will read up and post something more contentful by midnight.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, Orbiting kidnapped me yesterday and I didn't meet my midnight deadline. Catching up now... (warning, this is going to have a lot of random suspicion in it, as I'm essentially participating in the first 6 pages all at once; I'll boil it down before I'm through).

---

RVS looks fairly typical. a2rudeboy and Nexus get scumbuddy points for where Nexus' eventual vote landed once RVS was explained to him, and a2rudeboy's commentary about people trying to kill us. That's small fry, though... Earlder1 makes no bones about wanting to target Nexus early, which isn't buddying but is weird-looking to me. It's Nexus' first game on the site, why wouldn't he always be confused?

millar13 is... being millar13, on page 1-2. Did he get force-replaced? Ohhh no, he asked for replacement. Interesting. On a sidebar I looked at millar's meta when he's scum: Only two I found, weirdly, is a mini where he also requested replacement (page 4) after getting heat, and a mini where he was modkilled for incredibly rude behavior. Very interesting indeed... yes, I know millar's a Village Idiot in general, but he doesn't usually get tossed out of games. I don't think he likes being scum...

jmurph3's post #47 is... interesting, in that she essentially admits to not saying anything on purpose, then goes on to rattle off a bunch of rules, not content. Definitely keeping an eye on her as I read...

BagSquad/Kov's #50 is pretty flippant. "A lady in the house" - really? Also, a

third

fourth unvote in a row is NOT the way RVS usually ends... BagSquad

or Vamparific

(whoops, that's me) scumpair with millar/Haylen?

Anyway, Haylen then shows up as millar's replacement with a post that looks like the 'standard IC intro' except that she's clearly tailored it to this game's situation.

Haylen: Why did you post that after jmurph3 had essentially done the same thing the previous page?

You were clearly aware enough of the game state to know millar's behavior. Nexus and a2rudeboy gain no townie points for their reaction to Haylen's non-entrance.

Haylen's next post bears quoting rather than just linking:

Ooooh! I only have powers to edit my OWN posts in other peoples newbie game threads. Not other peoples

Also, AR, I agree with you on that point. I would FoS and possibly lynch him for what he did, if this were not a newbie game.

FoS Millar/Haylen

It doesn't matter that I'm the person who replaced him. I did know his role before I replaced in, because I seem to have very good reads on certain players.

You knew his role? What was it? Why did you FoS yourself?!? And why the side comment about editing posts? Did you fix something?? Then you vote the person about to be prodded, who hasn't showed up in 3 pages.

Nexus' response to CSL's request for more content actually strikes me as rather pro-town, and I like his insight into Earlder1's possible motives for asking for experience. I don't agree with it, but it's a good thing to notice. Not getting the Nexus-hate on pages 6/7.

Then Haylen tries Random Questioning Stage to jumpstart things. Points for the effort, but then she picks....

jmurph3 as her lynch of choice

?!? As a

lurker

... really?? jmurph's been one of the more consistently active players, and regardless, you're not voting them at this point! You were still voting for the being-replaced ChibiSanNub/Zajnet. Also of note is the self-meta-excuse of posting fluff given in this post... I'm really not liking my other IC at this point.

Nexus gets weirdly fatalistic at this point, even though at this point he only has one vote on him. Usually that's a town tell in a newbie, but it could go either way for me. Plus, apparently it could be meds from the operation.

*sigh* Back to Haylen... next she says not posting content is scummy because scum are 'desperate to cast suspicion about', but her complaint is actually that BagSquad/Kov isn't doing

anything

- how is that desperate action to throw suspicion? In any case the point is kind of moot now that BS has been replaced, but it's another odd comment. Pair that with the "everyone post who you think is town and scum, right now" and my scumdar is going off like a fire alarm. Asking for who is TOWN on Day One just gives scum a shopping list for Night One... Beefster beat me to this comment, so he gets townie cookies (even better than points).

Nexus comes in and replies, and I have some sympathy here. Haylen's arrival seems to be the driving force between a 1-vote wagon at the top of page 6, and a L-1 wagon by post 157. Kov looks pretty bloodthirsty with an early vote here, but he does say it's his first game.

Nexus' next "I give up" post is just awful... teetering now on whether it makes them town or scum. And for the record, that's not self-hammering, self-hammering is when you vote yourself to push a lynch to completion. DON'T DO THAT!!! What I think you should do now is tell us your role, if you have one. I expect you to be a Vanilla Townie, but if you are somehow the Cop/Doc we need to know that now so we don't lose a power role Day 1.

I read this whole topic two days ago I thought you were scum and tbh I have no idea how to be sure and 90% of the games I looked at always lose a townie first

Why did you read the game two days ago?

---

Okay, that's everything, I'm caught up now (the bickering back and forth on this page between Haylen and Nexus isn't really useful, as it's drifting into OMGUS territory).

tldr

: Millar/Haylen looks bad to me in both incarnations. I could go either way on Nexus, but really I think Haylen is a better bet right now. She claims to be a gut player, but is asking a lot of questions and giving a lot of analysis, which would have to be retrofitted to her suspicions if she was playing by gut. Beefster looks townish, as does jmurph. Everybody else I have weak opinions on.

UNVOTE: a2rudeboy, VOTE: Haylen

[Mr. Flay]

Good lord, I joined for a

quiet

game, people! What's with the page of posting in 12 hours!?!

Kov- is interesting. Jumping into the game and directly putting someone at l1 seems incredibly scummy, but i think at some point can be allowed for over-excitedness in just starting to play mafia and wanting to make a bit of a splash right away. Perhaps they don't know the true implications of what they are doing.

Coaching? I had much the same reaction, but your defense is noted.

I'm going to come clean and admit my role as Vanilla Townie.

That's my role, and that's all I can say.

That's what I figured, but thanks for the confirmation. At this point I should point out that a BUNCH of bandwagon-to-claims today is not going to be helpful. If scum are Power-Role-hunting, they know not to hit anybody claiming VT. I'm not quite as extreme as Yosarian2 (who I can't quote, being as he said it in an ongoing game) who essentially believes that once a VT claims, you HAVE to lynch them, but it's worth being aware of the risks.

OMGUS, as I understand it, is for RVS.

OMGUS isn't "for" anything, it's just a description of a type of vote that seems based on a vote rather than explicit scumminess. Don't get attached to certain things being only present in certain stages of the game, except technical things like LYLO.

Jmurph-

I'm a little unsettled by how quickly you voted Kov. You've been accused a couple of times already of bandwagon jumping, or attempting to start one, I'm just curious with all of this on you, why you would vote Kov in right away? Yes, quickly voting someone to l-1 after just joining the game is VERY scummy

Again defending? Why don't you let Kov make his own statements?

Kov, I'm not really going to try to pick your posts apart until you answer two questions:

1. Have you played Mafia before, either in person or on another site?
   
2. If so, can you link to any games?

Haylen gets her own post to avoid the wall from bogging down this entire post... it'll priobably be this afternoon.

[Mr. Flay]

I have not spoken to Flay at all outside of the thread.

Wouldn't necessarily be a lie. Flay's only just replaced in and scum are only allowed to night talk during confirmations and at night.

[Mr. Flay]

You're skipping what I said after. I had a good read on him. He wasn't anti-town, he was anti-newbie. He was being a dick. That doesn't mean that he's scum. I actually find that as much as I dislike Village Idiots, they tend to be town. I think that he was trying to continue the RVS so that the game came out of it naturally rather than be forced, which I actually find quite protown.

That's not a role, that's a "playstyle"... you said you knew his

role

. millar's always a VI, but earlier I pointed out that he's never finished a game as scum. Can you explain? I'd also like to see where you get the idea that VIs tend to be Town, especially on Day One??

Speaking of meta, I disagree strongly with your graph for jmurph3. She's one of the few players yet who hasn't been prodded or replaced. You and Nexus are easily at the top of the posting heap, but look at the other players form comparison, if you will:

Spoiler: 9 graphics behind the cut

Lurking is about context - maybe you didn't notice that jmurph3 was only 'lurking' in comparison to you and Nexus, but why then did you pick him out versus other players that are posting LESS, like a2rudeboy or ChibiSanNub? It still looks like you're manufacturing

post hoc

, and I don't like it.

Kov, I'm not really going to try to pick your posts apart until you answer two questions:

1. Have you played Mafia before, either in person or on another site?
   
2. If so, can you link to any games?

Both answers are No this is my first game and I am just playing the way I think is best to eliminate scum as fast as possible.

Okay. That makes sense, but it's alarming. Next time you vote (and you don't

always

have to be voting), try to explain WHY. You've done some of that now, but baiting... doesn't really work like that. I mean, not on MafiaScum. People tend to be very deliberate with their votes, outside of the RVS and endgame quicklynches.

We';re having major storms here so I guess the rest of my reply to Haylen will have to wait a while longer. Really though it boils down to a lot of seeming contradictions and borderline lies, like the "I'm not looking for a list" thing and the redundant IC-intro post.

[Mr. Flay]

So (this is just a newbie bit btw) tonight the scum wouldn't kill nexus because they claimed vanilla under pressure because they are more interested in power-players(cops and such). Or does leaving scummier players have more advantages. Also how do the other players seem scummier when under pressure would most players not claim power-role/vanilla townie whether they are scum or not?

Talking about the nightkill before it happens is scummy - are you trying to communicate to your buddy?

Just a note:
Earlder does seem to be lurking and not participating He says "even though I posted two days ago"when prodded suggesting he is trying to wait as long as possible which is anti-discussion therefore anti-town?

Good point. Earlder1, response?

Zajnet, if you want us to 'get on track', you're going to have to post more content/analysis yourself.

[Mr. Flay]

You caught me! because a newbie isn't allowed to ask questions in there first game. I was debating to leave it out but best to learn what to do as Mafia as eventually I will be scum. AND is it really scummy as why on earth would they draw any attention to the nightkill as whatever they say can be used against them.

Well, you can ask questions, and you'll note I didn't vote you. But asking about the nightkill is a good way for scum to see what the other side might do, i.e. who a Doctor might protect or Cop might investigate, in this case. Also, if one scum feels like they're going to get lynched, they can try to push their buddy toward a particular player, since they won't get a chance to nighttalk again.

@flay- i know you said storms were holding off the rest of your haylen comment, is there still more to go on this?

Oh, sorry. I kinda boiled it down because some other people had hit on things, but here's what bothers me from Haylen's big post:

Haylen: Why did you post that after jmurph3 had essentially done the same thing the previous page?

I always do it in games that I'm an IC in. I've done it since September last year. In fact, it's exactly the same post as I posted in the first game I IC'd, the only difference is the links, the names and the pro-nouns. *shrugs* The editting thing can easily be explained by the fact that I write exactly what I am thinking at the time when I'm writing a post in games rather than make up some ridiculous bullcrap.

That doesn't explain WHY you did it. It's not content, yet you spent a significant amount of time editing it so the names would be right for this game. Had you read the game thread at that point, or not?

About me voting for the guy being prodded, this is how my gut works:
I look at the playerlist and find the name that jumps out at me. At that point it was the person whom I voted for. I disregarded anything that wasn't me gut when making that vote.

So it was literally a random vote? On page 4. But then on page 6, post 116, you say you're most likely to lynch jmurph at that point, while you're still voting ChibiSanNub/Zajnet (who has been replaced). You hadn't mentioned jmurph ONCE at that point... (or most other players, to be honest), so why was he most lynchable? Was that name also picked at random?

Also of note is the self-meta-excuse of posting fluff given in this post.

Would it not have been hypocritical to ask everybody to answer my questions, yet not answer them myself?

That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about this"

I wouldn't call lurking part of my playstyle, it's something that happens if things are getting too much for me. Posting fluff however? Me and another player had a lovely conversation about that once.

Her: "Posting content is painful for you, isn't it. Haylen."
Me: "I would rather chew glass."

You just excused your own lack of content pre-emptively. Also, for somebody who plays by gut (again, self-analysis), you post an awful lot of walls of words.

I've not noticed this tendency to post things 'at random' or not say what you mean in GD and MD. Have we ever played together, Haylen? Can you post an example or two from a completed game as Town? It can wait, doesn't have to be right away... just trying to get a sense if that's actually alignment-independent.

[Mr. Flay]

Earlder, are you unavailable any specific days/times? You don't have to post your work schedule, of course, just figure out why Sunday-Tuesday didn't seem that long to you.

[Mr. Flay]

Color me unsurprised at the OMGUS. Here's a countertheory: you like playing Newbies because you DON'T usually get questioned this hard. The idea that you are posting walls because "everyone is asking you questions" is laughable when you're the one who started with the questions, and you have most of the post-content for this game.

That said, that post from Mini 800. Good lord... I'll need to do some reading up on you. Maybe you're right and I'm just biased against your general style (or, equally likely, we speak different languages in Mafia). I'll try to post more concisely and 'politely' to you tomorrow because the game isn't about pissing people off, but I need to read your meta more first. I still don't like the semi-random attack on jmurph3, but your explanation makes some sense.

As for the graphs, they're scatter plots of post times. X is the day they were posted, and Y is the time of day (so you can see that I don't post early in the morning, U.S. time, because the bottom of my graph is largely bare). It's a little more nuanced than your line graph, and shows (to me) that jmurph's posting is not as 'lurky' as you made it seem by that 2-0-2-0-0-2 graph.

[Mr. Flay]

I say 'tomorrow' because I *really* have to get some work done today, and tonight I'm focusing on other things besides my games, and then tomorrow my other game goes to deadline. So I hope to have more content by Saturday morning...

[Mr. Flay]

Nexus has been really uncharacteristically silent since the focus came off.

[Mr. Flay]

Argh. Weekend exploded on me, didn't get a chance to read until today. I'm on page 11, more within 6 hours.

[Mr. Flay]

Nexus has been really uncharacteristically silent since the focus came off.

Hokay, first things first. Nexus showed up within hours of my calling him(?) out for the quietness, which means they're reading the thread even when not posting. Hint: If you're Town, stop doing that. Quieting down is NOT the way to win the game, it allows others to control the discussion, and some of those people are Not On Your Side.

I was even more talkative because I needed to get the focus away from me, because it was heading for a town lynch, and nobody wanted that.

We don't know that, though. A scum will (usually) get talkative to avoid a lynch too, so it tells us nothing that you were active, just that you were nervous about being lynched. Being active is good, but being active only when you're under pressure is bad.

Hrm. Top of page 12, Beefster pushes Haylen to L-2 right after a VC. I'd say he's an unlikely scumbuddy if she flips scum (that was the tipping point vote). Nexus would be a longshot, but Zajnet looks most likely to be a bus of anyone, in my eyes.

stop tunnelling me all of you, and get back on track.

i.e. "stop voting me you fools!" - you've been in a bad mood for days, frankly the excuse is wearing thin. I don't think anyone should hammer yet, we still have about 72 hours before deadline and need to hear more from a2rudeboy (and probably myself). But I don't see any of the other current wagons right now as as likely to hit Mafia as yours. It's not personal, please stop acting like we're ad homming you.

Ok. Here's a question. Player D is very strong on Player E's lynch wagon on Day One, in fact, he is the leading participant in the lynch, it turns out that the player being lynched is a townie. Player D then claims Cop on Day Two with a guilty on Player F. Does the fact that Player D was wrong once completely undermine his claim that Player F is scum?

Of course not. Other factors may undermine it, but not being on a single bad lynch.

UNVOTE: Haylen

- just so we're clear, are you softclaiming? You're at L-1 as of the time I started this post, so I don't think it's too early to ask (and Kov is still being bloodthirsty as hell). This is a tactical unvote ONLY, to avoid a quicklynch if you say yes.

However, the way you've gone about denying it or reacting to it has made me suspicious. You've reacted with such venom that it appears to me as if we've stumbled upon scum and you're afraid you're going to get lynched. I feel like town in this situation, especially an experienced town as you would be in this situation, would react differently, more calmly, and try to continue scumhunting and helping town. I haven't seen this reaction from you, which is raising my suspicion.

This; exactly this. I was mainly probing for reactions when I started, but NONE of your reactions have shown me any reason to think you're town. A lot of it has turned out to be nulltells (the chaotic nature of your posts, the rapid-fire 'fluff' responses), but the diversionary tactics and panic are raising my hackles.

a2rudeboy:

Why do you only post when you're prodded, lately? Who do you think could be scumbuddies with each other as of this posting? Could you reiterate who your top scum choices are, please?

[Mr. Flay]

After Haylen posts (if she doesn't explain it).

[Mr. Flay]

VOTE: Haylen

For Beefster: Sometimes Mafia find it useful to "pretend" to miscount the votes and hammer a claimed Cop, especially this early when they have no results. It doesn't usually let the hammerer live past the next day, but hey, sometimes they feel it's worth it, and sometimes they DO live.

On the off chance that Haylen was getting set to tell us she was the Cop, I unvoted to drop her down to L-2. That's why I said it was only a tactical unvote, not because I found her any less suspicious.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay, you posted that you thought you knew the reason why I stick to newbie games. You're wrong, here's a list of reasons.
1) I love teaching, I don't like that that got reduced to "you want to take the easy way out and not be attacked." I probably wont get to do this now due to my performance here. Yes, I am a better IC when I'm scum.
2) You've probably noticed that I'm not very well liked "certain" members of the site, they rarely grace us with their presence in the newbie queue. This is the one place on site where I know I'll be "safe" from them. :/

I said it was a POSSIBLE reason. I'm not getting into the rest of this until post-game... suffice to say, I don't feel like I'm attacking you personally, just your behavior in this game.

I feel like I'm repeating myself, but: I'm not twisting your words. Your words are RIGHT THERE. jmurph has quoted them. I've quoted them. You're flat-out using words to mean what you think they should mean, not what they mean, and it's at the least distracting, at the most scummy.

As for the Cop-claim thing: yes, you could do that, and if you had, we'd have dealt with it. I didn't mean to imply that if you'd claimed Cop I'd have dropped all suspicion of you, but a claimed Cop is a

terrible

Day One lynch.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay- I haven't been posting only when prodded as of late, if you notice I was quite active between pages 9-11. I hadn't seen anything recently really worth commenting on.

O RLY? Did you not notice the huge dropoff in posting after 7/21? You had a similar 5-day gap back in 7/11-7/16, but at that point you said you'd had a power outage. I'm just curious why you're finding nothing to comment on in the "back and forth". Do you not feel you need to say anything because it's going the way you want? Scumhunting is a group effort.

Regardless, if Haylen is driving content here in one form or another, I've seen how a game can quickly stagnate once that disappears.

What does this mean? Do you think we're stagnating now, or that we'll stagnate if Haylen is lynched?

I am, however, at this point not going to reiterate who my scumbuddy suspicions / top choices are (other than where my vote is). I have before mentioned my top pairing on day 1, only to have one flip town when lynched and the other flip town during NK, This lead to a very easy quick lynch on me the next day (I was town)

Well, I'd hope you'd comment more in general, even if it's not about pairings. I was just trying to get you to say anything except "I'm here."

[Mr. Flay]

Beefster, tell me, how do you know you won't die during the night?

I don't think i'll die tonight you need to be an optimist

Why are you answering a question for Beefster?

Oh, and to answer your earlier question. True, I stated I am not a supporter of lynching solely to lynch near the deadline

I don' like this. As far as I can see a No Lynch does not help town to me it simple means each of us have 7 suspects Day 2 instead of 6 and as far as i can tell it's better to take the 2 in 8(As you know for yourself if you are scum or not) chance now.
Than No lynch and have a 2 in 6 chance Day 2 rather than a 2 (or 1) in 5 chance if we lynch day 1. Hitting scum / not hitting scum gives alot of discussion for day 2 rather than a No Lynch which doesn't tell us anything. You can almost guarantee at least 1 scum is on the wagon just by numbers.
So saying you would prefer a No Lynch than one for deadline is anti-town if not scummy

I like this Kov. Can we get more of him?

Right now, I feel like there is some tunneling going on, perhaps unwarranted, towards myself. Mostly by Flay and Kov. I have already discussed my issues with Kov.

How am I tunnelling? WHY IS IT TUNNELLING to ask people questions, in this game? I just want you to post more, and more content, before deadline. What makes my two posts addressed at you feel like I'm tunnelling?

[Mr. Flay]

Zajnet is easy:

Zajnet, if you want us to 'get on track', you're going to have to post more content/analysis yourself.

Hrm. Top of page 12, Beefster pushes Haylen to L-2 right after a VC. I'd say he's an unlikely scumbuddy if she flips scum (that was the tipping point vote). Nexus would be a longshot, but Zajnet looks most likely to be a bus of anyone, in my eyes.

He's been practically invisible as deadline gets closer. I'd be happy to vote him, but I'm skeptical we could get wagon+claim+5 before deadline today. If Haylen flips scum he'd be high on my list for tomorrow; he just seems to be hanging back and letting others talk. Actually, if Haylen doesn't flip I'm suspicious too, because of the "this looks like town vs. town" comment.

Beefster, on the other hand, is participatory at the level I'd expect of somebody of his experience level (no offense). He's hammering on his target like a good Townie should, but isn't adding a whole lot of analysis to the mix. I would tilt pro-town for now.

[Mr. Flay]

@Flay-If we were a week out of deadline, would your vote go to Haylen or Zaj, ie, who do you think is the scummiest? Also, if we operate under the assumption of (which I dont necessarily believe) that they are both scum, which is better to keep in the game? I guess what I'm boiling it down to, is there enough reason for us to try and see if anyone would support a lynch other than Haylen?

I still think Haylen is signficantly scummier than Zajnet (or anybody else), I was just acknowledging that I could see a reason for the vote(s) there and would support it if the need came (the Haylen wagon disintegrated, claim, etc). If we weren't so late in the Day I might say try it, but we're something like 56 hours out from deadline, I think. That's opposed to, say, a Nexuswagon or jmurphwagon that I wouldn't really support today.

If it's scummy just say and I will stop it.

This part of your post worries me. Why are you willing to change your behavior if others call it scummy? Why do you not want to contribute your own input rather than hijacking questions to others to answer? What have you learned is different between this game you're playing here and the other one you're playing offsite (no specifics, just tactics/tells/etc)?

Zajnet:

besides Haylen, is there anyone else you'd vote today, right now (assuming deadline wasn't an issue)?

[Mr. Flay]

Ooops, I'm getting people confused in my brain. Editing by way of doublepost...

If it's scummy just say and I will stop it.

This part of your post worries me. Why are you willing to change your behavior if others call it scummy? Why do you not want to contribute your own input rather than hijacking questions to others to answer? What have you learned is different between this game you're playing here and the other one you'

ve just won

?

Edit is bolded.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm strongly considering flipping my vote to Zajnet. He's like a MiniMe version of Haylen, only without the good qualities. Seriously dude, you HAVE to contribute or you're helping the scum. And if you're scum, you HAVE to contribute or you're going to get lynched.

As MeMe says, post or perish. First off you should explain your OWN case for jmurph, not rely on other people to make their cases for you. Second, we're getting close to deadline, so even if your posts stay short, you should make more of them. There's a not-insignificant wagon building on you right now, counting both votes and comments about votes, and I don't want an 11th-hour lynch rushed through because we can't hear from you.

[Mr. Flay]

I am intrigued as to why Flay let him go unnoticed for so long aswell - the could indicate to me a Zaj/Flay scumteam.

Huh? How have I let him go unnoticed, compared to anyone else letting him go unnoticed? I've poked at him several times over my tenure here, and last page is pretty clear on who starts pushing toward him. Hint: It's not you.

[Mr. Flay]

Kov...never mention that game again, I am still absolutely furious about it.

Me too...

Mod:

Could you please not comment in-game about other games? It messes with my head...

In any case, the undisclosed fact that Haylen and Kov played together while this Day was going on is interesting. I don't actually think it makes them any more likely to be buddies here, but Kov was scum there and seemed to play a calmer game than here. Haylen played about the same, which makes sense given what she's said about her meta.

Suddenly Zajnet and Haylen are both at L-2, by my count. I'm not switching yet but I REALLY want to see what Zajnet says when he comes back. I'll be gone this evening attending some local theatre, will check back closer to midnight when I get home.

[Mr. Flay]

Wow, I was prepared to flip to Zajnet, but Haylen's last post just REEKS. "never" is a terrible word to use in Mafia. I use semantics All The Time. I'm a nitpicky, wall-posting player. You know this, I'm assuming, but you're bound and determined to make me out to be scum. You've already decided, in fact, so everything I do looks scummy to you (much like you did earlier this day, for me).

It's the same as with me! The whole case is based on the opinion that "an experienced player wouldn't do this and that." That's how ridiculous it is.
My case on Flay is that "a much much more experienced player wouldn't do this"

If I cant be emotionally charged and be town, then why can a newbie?
If Flay can use semantics to make everyone believe that I'm scum, then why can't I throw the fact that apparently, experience is everything back at him.

There's no way out.

It's either admit the use of semantics and therefore be scum. Or admit that the case on my was ridiculous anyway.

So basically, you're boiling it down to "if Flay can do it, I can do it too?" Terrible motivation. Vote stands, Haylen.

Semantics is a perfectly valid way of scumhunting. It's the basic of lots of small tells, like catching slipups and waffling.

[Mr. Flay]

Because, I am 98% sure he's scum.

Well done. Now if I live, you've posited why I should be the D2 lynch. If you're town, can you see why setting up future lynches before the flip is BAD? That doesn't just go for you by the way... all this speculation about who to lynch tomorrow just informs the NK.

I'm completely content with my vote.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm here, but drunk and tired so will post content tomorrow.

I don't get Zajnet's post. Why am I likely to be scum for a2's death? Why are you so fast out the gate today? Excited by the mislynch?

I'm not putting you at L-1 this early, but I'm curious what your reread gives. Like I said, I'll post more tomorrow.

[Mr. Flay]

Argh. I went to see Predators last night, should have stayed home and read this game instead. I've got work today, a meeting and then dinner tonight, then I WILL post here.

I do have to say, though, that I called what's happening today. How many votes have I already accumulated, because of a wagon that 4 other people were on?

[Mr. Flay]

I have NOT read any of the cases on me yet; I scanned the thread and saw my name in practically every post.

I thought I'd be able to post tonight, but I'm hot and tired and my computer is acting stupid. I ask for another 24 hours; if I can't get back here by then, I'll ask CSL for replacement, though I don't want to replace out of a replacement IC slot. I'm just too mad to post coherently right now (it's already 2AM here and I just got to the site).

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry again for not being able to post before tonight. I'll try to keep this relatively short, but as complete as possible.

First things first: I stand by the Haylen lynch from yesterday. Yes, she turned out to be Town, but her playstyle was distracting and she was either outright lying or dangerously naive with the "I didn't tell you to make a list of everyone!" explanation. That alone set off my scumdar, plus the "stop twisting my words" yelling and the OMGUS attacks. Even a mislynch has its uses though, because we can analyze both who was ON it and who stayed OFF it.

Spoiler: Day One wall-of-words

The End of Day 1 votecount

Zajnet

(L-1)

Haylen, Kov, Earlder1, a2rudeboy
Haylen

(LYNCH) Beefster, Zajnet, Mr. Flay, Nexus, jmurph3

Kind of interesting to me that we came right down to the wire there, with all nine people voting. In addition to the five of us who lynched her, previously in the Day a2rudeboy voted her, but he's dead Town as well now. jmurph3 was the first voter for millar13, during RVS. It came off as the game progressed into meaningful discussion, but she was the hammer on the same role slot later. I still find that to be fairly pro-town overall. Beefster launched the first minor 'case' on millar in post 56, and... I'm not doing a very good job of keeping this short. First vote for what turned out to be the 'alternate lynch candidate' (ChibiSanNub/Zajnet) was cast by Haylen, no big surprise there. Zajnet came out pretty quick against millar13, in post 125 after his read of the thread upon replacing in. Didn't seem to connect that millar13 = Haylen, which is weird. Beefster by page 6 has Nexus as his top suspect, with millar13/Haylen a distant 3rd. I can't really agree with Beefster finding jmurph3 suspicious, but I've already said that yesterday. Earlder1 hops onto the Nexus bandwagon pretty fast, citing mostly Haylen's case as evidence.

Kov answering questions "for" BagSquad (who he replaced) is odd, but seems a newbie quirk, as is the superfast vote for Nexus. Still, Kov later hopped onto the Zajnet wagon instead, after drifting past the even-larger Haylen wagon (post #249, bottom of page 11) that I helped start. a2 jumped on right after me, then Nexus, right after roleclaiming (which was asked for, in fairness). Kov never votes for Haylen though... actually, all day no vote for Haylen.

FOS: Kov

- also, a2 voted for Kov at the top of page 12.

Beefster jumps ship from Nexus to jmurph3 less than an hour after the claim, citing the vote for Kov. Protecting your scumbuddy?? Zaj and Beefster also excuse Kov as newbish (as did I, to be fair), but jmurph jumps right back down Kov's throat. That could be either town or scum behavior; jmurph3 seems sophisticated enough to start a bus D1. Beefster on the other hand latches onto the Haylenwagon and doesn't let go for the rest of the day. Pretty much he and I were the only ones there the entire time... Earlder1 was willing to go for either Nexus or Haylen, nobody else.

Earlder1 is prodded again, and says he's suspicious of Haylen, Kov, and Nexus. At that point Kov had no votes at all, so that's an interesting mention. At this point (page 10) Zajnet starts up the "this looks like a town-town fight to me" commentary. But by page 13, Zajnet is willing to put her at L-1.

Nexus admits he's not saying much since the heat came off. He's also been pretty firmly on Haylen's case, but it's more understandable (to me) here because Haylen was a large part of the Nexuswagon.

Page 14, Kov answers a question aimed at Beefster. That's not the first connection between the two of them (see above, regarding jmurph3's vote).

Near the bottom of that page, Zajnet telegraphs that he'll look at me for a lynch today if Haylen flips Town. Since Zajnet is ON the Haylenlynch, that strikes me as an excellent reason why I'm still alive today. Convenient, no? Of course Haylen backs him up on this, and now he can cite those as "confirmed Townie" words...and I bet he does, once I get to D2. Incidentally this is about the time the Zajnetwagon starts up, with Haylen joining jmurph3 and Kov jumping third. I signaled that I could vote for Zajnet, so really that's a potential for as many as 4 votes, which is what Haylen was at at that point. That makes Zajnet/Kov less likely to me, but not Zajnet/Nexus or Kov/Beefster. Earlder1 gets cold feet on the Haylenwagon and makes noises about being willing to go for Zajnet (note that we're just over 24 hours from deadline at this point, there's no other wagon to be had besides those two). He does say that he doesn't think Kov is as scummy as he thought earlier, even though he's bloodthirsty and anti-town? WTH?

Zajnet comes back to a L-1/L-2 wagon on him and seems perilously unconcerned about it, even going so far as to defend jmurph3, who was an early antagonist. Usually when I see that it's scum whose partner is NOT bussing them, which would mean anybody but

Haylen

, Kov, Earlder1, and arguably jmurph3 at this point, as jmurph3 was unvoted Zajnet for tactical reasons. That leaves me, Nexus, and Beefster, unsurprisingly. Nexus' post #378 is weirdly out of order, as if he was originally talking about Zajnet first and then Haylen, but re-ordered the post. Now why would he do that, except to make his case on Zajnet look weaker? It's bracketed between commentary about Haylen (who Nexus is actually voting for), but actually says worse things. I don't get the reluctance here... +5 Buddy Points for Nexus.

Beefster says that Zajnet has contributed nothing, but still wants to lynch Haylen today, Zajnet tomorrow. +50 Buddy Points for Beefster!

a2rudeboy balances things back up at L-1 for both Haylen and Zajnet in post #420. That right there, combined with Haylen's flip, makes me 99% sure Zajnet killed a2rudeboy.

And then, as I said already, Zajnet comes RIGHT out at Dawn Two with suspicion on me. Beefster votes Zajnet second (after Earlder1), which takes away some of those hundreds of scumbuddy points he got yesterday. Plus, he also noticed that both of us were alive in favor of a2rudeboy's death. Why a2?? The only people who make sense for me there are Zajnet and Kov.

Then the attacks on me start...

Mr. Flay:

Personally, I'm most suspicious of Mr. Flay at this point. I've reread everything from D1 and it seems to me that he was shepherding town. He started the wagon on Haylen, and he tunneled on her to the end. Not once in 9 pages does he vote for anyone else. Even when he suspected someone else (namely Zajnet) he makes his case in terms of Haylen. Note what he says here (emphasis mine):

I'm strongly considering flipping my vote to Zajnet.

He's like a MiniMe version of Haylen, only without the good qualities.

Seriously dude, you HAVE to contribute or you're helping the scum. And if you're scum, you HAVE to contribute or you're going to get lynched.

Yup. I thought Haylen was scum, and I stood/stand by that. You also lynched her with me, in fact you hammered. Why is consistency scummy here?

I also, in retrospect - as I didn't notice it at the time - really don't like this. It seems like he's power role fishing, especially since there's no way that I can see Haylen's post as being misconstrued as soft-claiming.

UNVOTE: Haylen

- just so we're clear, are you softclaiming? You're at L-1 as of the time I started this post, so I don't think it's too early to ask (and Kov is still being bloodthirsty as hell). This is a tactical unvote ONLY, to avoid a quicklynch if you say yes.

That's not rolefishing - that's ASKING FOR A CLAIM. Haylen was at L-1, which is usually the time you demand a claim from someone if you think they could be lynched. Haylen actually answered me kind-of-backwards, but it gave the sense that she was not a Power Role, which she confirmed a post or two later.

jmurph: I see your point about Mr. Flay. I also see motives behind him not killing me if he is scum- as I agreed with him quite a bit.

Why did you think you would be the NK?

Ok.

Going through the past posts, I noticed that Haylen, for all her faults, was building quite a big case on Mr. Flay. Having read jmurph's post as well, I'm beginning to feel that Haylen had a point. Once Mr. Flay got involved, it was difficult for anyone else to get accused. Yes, Zajnet ended up on L-1 too, but I think that was more to do with the fact he had been lurking, whereas Haylen was lynched because the case against her from Flay.

You voted Haylen too, helped lynch her in fact. Why am I scum in your eyes for making a case???

On Mr Flay: Tunnelled Haylen, he knows her better than most of us, so probably knew this was how she acted as town, and went ahead anyway. So, most suspicious.

That's a flat-out lie; I had to ask Haylen for game references earlier because I've NEVER played with her. GD/MD/SI is a very different environment than in-game, and frankly I thought she was acting weird even compared to the discussion forums. During Day One while she was flipping out in here she was joking and playing riddle games in GD.

Especially because of Flay's first content-filled post I feel like he was steering town in a direction, and truthfully, I fell for it. Still, it's not just the mislynch on Haylen that drives my vote. There's the way I felt he was fishing for power roles.

Aside from the "softclaiming" quote above, where else was I fishing for roles? Be specific.

As a further example, I did some digging. I know personally one of the things that really drew me into Flay's argument and made me trust him was in his first content-filled post when he said this about millar13:

millar13 is... being millar13, on page 1-2. Did he get force-replaced? Ohhh no, he asked for replacement. Interesting. On a sidebar I looked at millar's meta when he's scum: Only two I found, weirdly, is a mini where he also requested replacement (page 4) after getting heat, and a mini where he was modkilled for incredibly rude behavior. Very interesting indeed... yes, I know millar's a Village Idiot in general, but he doesn't usually get tossed out of games. I don't think he likes being scum...

Personally, I took this at face value and used it as further justification for the scum vibes I was getting from Haylen. But much like how Haylen's graph on my posting didn't tell the whole story, neither does this post. After all, Mr. Flay almost dismisses millar's general crap play. He implies that millar's modkill was out of the ordinary, but in this game, millar was denied the win after he replaced in and was a complete a$$hole, and he was townie in that situation. In addition, the first game that Flay mentions didn't happen the way he claims it did; millar indeed requested replacement but then just as quickly unrequested it. He was never replaced in that game.

Mr. Flay is a good player, and I think he realized that most of us would never look much closer at the examples he posted and instead just take his word for it. I did, and we mislynched because of it. To me, this is just further evidence of Mr. Flay's scummy play.

I only looked at games where millar13 was scum - he's got a LARGE body of experience on the site, and I'd have been reading for a week if I went through his town games, too. All I wanted to see was if there was anything related to his scumgame that made sense here, and the replacement/modkill thing stuck out. millar (not to beat a dead horse) acts like millar in GD too - witness the Marathon Day threads. So trying to look for "town tells" for him was failure work, as far as I was considered... what really stuck out for me first was his antagonism with CSL, and it didn't gel with his usual game.

The replace-me-don't-replace-me thing from that first game is likewise kind of a red herring. If I was going to lie/misrep millar, why would I link to the game? As for millar's claim to not have gotten a role until Night One... I have a hard time believing that, frankly. Why didn't he complain about that during his tantrum D1? Nobody else complained about not getting their role... I think he either forgot or was lying.

My scumlist from yesterday was a2rudeboy, jmurph, and Flay. The fact that a2 died makes jmurph and Flay top 2. Flay gets moved up to #1 because of Haylen's read.

Citing Haylen again. Will you PLEASE make your own case on me, so I have something to reply to??

[Mr. Flay]

Clearly Haylen must have had some good points otherwise you wouldn't be demanding Zajnet to make his own case. Why make his own case, when Haylen's appears to be causing you discomfort?

What the hell does this even mean? If Zajnet thinks I'm scum, then he should be able to articulate why. Relying on someone else's words is a common, basic scum tactic, because then it allows the person to fall back on "well I never actually said that" or "I didn't mean it that way". Be responsible for your own cases, people! Outside of the Road to Rome, you're going to get torn to SHREDS if you can't say why you think someone's scum without referencing somebody else's argument.

Instead, Zajnet says that he's "not very good with words". I'm not asking for a wall of words. I just want, in your own words, what makes me scummy. I can't 'argue' with Haylen, because Haylen's dead. So I'm trying to argue with those who are here.

I realised I made a mistake voting Haylen, but her instability was damaging to the game, so I don't necessarily regret it.

When did you realize it was a mistake? Before the end of D1? If so, why didn't you switch to Zajnet? And what made you realize the mistake?

If you didn't

realize

it before Haylen's flip, then there's no

realization

to it, you just now

know

you were wrong.

That's what lynches do, sometimes.

It's why town gets many times more members than scum; you HAVE to be able to be wrong sometimes, to eventually catch scum. I was wrong. You were wrong. Five of us were wrong, but that's part of the game. Now we use that information to do better today, hopefully, but I don't see how putting me at L-1 within 72 hours is going to help. This is basically a continuation of Haylen's OMGUS from D1, carried on by either scum or sheepish townies. And surprise surprise, we're not discussing anything but me right now, allowing everybody else to slip under the radar. Lynch wrong today and you only get one more chance.

[Mr. Flay]

Also, you're not on L-1. I unvoted to give you a chance to explain yourself. You've still not really defended yourself, you're just telling us what we're doing wrong. Cast suspicion on someone else if you don't want to go back to L-1, or show me why I'm wrong.

I thought that's what I was doing? I strongly think Zajnet is scum, but I'm not voting him because I think it's too early to put someone at L-1. It was probably a little unclear from my wall post the other night, it was 3 in the morning by the time I finished up. I'm also unclear about who his partner could be. Reread my post though and you'll see what I think, I've already laid that out I feel.

As for not being at L-1, that's a technicality. I WAS at L-1 and you only unvoted for technical reasons, so there's still enough committed votes for L-1. That's a dangerous position for me to be in, especially since I hadn't really been able to post until yesterday early morning.

Sorry, that should be "I realise now that voting Haylen was a mistake."

Why is it a 'mistake'? I realize you're relatively new to the game, but if you get buyer's remorse on every lynch, it's going to look bad. Don't vote someone unless you think they're scum, but don't regret your decision once you do so, either (unless somebody shows you the error of your logic). You're waffling on whether you actually thought Haylen was scum, and said you might vote for Zajnet, but didn't end up doing so. That's one reason I consider you one of his possible partners.

So basically we should ignore everyone else's play because they're now dead? Seems like a fruitless exercise to me-If we're agreeing to what Haylen said, why does that mean you can't then argue against us, if we have the same train of thought.

I dunno, maybe play has changed since the last time I really got to play, but using someone else's words seems lazy. I don't like Zajnet's absence yesterday combined with a sudden appearance and aggressiveness today. You I have somewhat less of a problem with.

I've already outlined the reasons why I think you're scum, and you at least refuted one of those ones-the tunnelling. Which is why I'm continuing not to vote, until I've looked at other people. Stop getting so defensive when you're only at L-2, and help find someone else, otherwise you're probably going to get lynched.

OK. That last post was compressing all of the D2 suspicion on me into one post and I perhaps overreacted.

So this isn't entirely a response to other people: I'm currently leaning Zajnet-Beefster. Zajnet-Nexus is much less likely, though they're both actively coming out against me today (despite Nexus voting much the same as me yesterday) so it's hard for me to be unbiased on this. Kov is too silent. I want to hear Earlder1's reread, but he gets points for being willing to look at more than just me. I don't think he's scum. I still don't think jmurph3 is scum, and in fact is the player I am most surprised to see alive today.

Actually, Kov is acting weird, even for him (her?). The one post Kov made today attacks jmurph3 in the first part with a buddying attack, but then votes Earlder1 for lurking. And now Kov is lurking...

VOTE: Kov

Mod: Prod Kov?

[Mr. Flay]

Argh, that post looks stupid. I'm voting Kov because he's NOT at the top of the voting queue and I don't want to limit myself to just tunnelling on Zajnet. I'm perfectly willing to lynch Zajnet, just not this soon. Does that make sense?

FOS: Zajnet in big blinking 72pt font...

[Mr. Flay]

UNVOTE: Kov/singersinger

*sigh* That explains the sudden silence... welcome singer!

Zajnet, seriously. POST MOAR PLZ. You and I are the primary suspects right now and it's unfair to the game (and each other) if we don't post. I accept that I didn't do a good job myself this weekend, I checked the thread a couple of times and nothing of substance happened, until yesterday afternoon when I was out of the house pretty much all day...

Mr. Flay…for an IC, you sure are starting to seem emotional when the pressure is being put on you. I don’t understand this.

There's a hopefully-soon-to-be-finished game that I'm dead in right now that I'll link you to when it's over, if we're still here discussing this. I'm 'emotional' right now because I'm busy and stressed and probably shouldn't be playing. Even still, I'm not really sure what you're seeing as emotional - can you provide examples? The one thing I can think of was my opening posts of Day 2.

[Mr. Flay]

VOTE: Zajnet

- where did all the votes go?

[Mr. Flay]

OIC - Earlder was voting the lurker too.

[Mr. Flay]

I unvoted singersinger because I was voting Kov for lurking, and I still think Zajnet is

more

likely to be scum.

Even with jmurph3 voting for me, I don't get the jmuprh hate. What has she done, besides disclaim responsibility for the lynch, as Nexus also did?

[Mr. Flay]

Wow, I never realized how much the area tag looks like the quote tag... that said, I'm going to reply to a bit of singersinger's, but leave the rest until jmurph gets here.

1. Who cares if her vote is on you? That shouldn't influence your judgment when genuinely scum-hunting.

The natural reaction (or at least my natural reaction) is to think the person voting for you is scum. But I don't, particularly... I liked pretty much all of jmurph's posting on D1, and I think she's just misguided here. I don't like the disclaiming of responsibility, but that's all part and parcel of the voting on me, so really one big/connected thing, in a sea of pro-town. And in fairness I feel like jmurph DID make their own case yesterday - practically nobody just "blindly followed" me, in fact. Reread pages 11-14 or so.

jmurph3 is the person I most expected not to see survive the night.

2. Nexus claimed from my recollection.

Correct, but first Nexus came at me for voting the same person as they did yesterday. I don't hold it against Nexus because they've recanted that now, but I mentioned Nexus for completeness. Nexus still seems like weak town to me, overall; his behavior is consistent with somebody who got unexpectedly bandwagoned on Day 1, then dropped off when they got confused, then is trying to get back in the swing of things since then.

Can you remind me again why you're voting for Zajnet, other than the lurking?

Well, the lurking COMBINES with the sudden activity today (though now that's dropped off again, so... meh). He's not putting any effort into the game, and that looks like lurkerscum to me (there's that word again, but it's a HUGE part of his play so far). Without content, there's not much else TO read, except his leap at me on Dawn.

[Mr. Flay]

UNVOTE: I am not the Doctor.

More later, it's late. Zaj I wish... nevermind. I want to see if there are any counterclaims first.

[Mr. Flay]

FOS: Beefster

- why would you even consider lynching a claimed Doc today?? By my count Beefster, Flay, singersinger, Earlder1, and Nexus have all claimed not-Doc. We need to hear from jmurph3, but even still, what merit do you see in trying to lynch a claimed Doctor today? And then you're talking about he may be a Cop?!?!?

Also, I'm assuming we don't have a counter claim...
So...there's no way to prove your claim, except to lynch you for the protection of town tomorrow in a possible mindfuck of unproven claims. You realize the predicament you put us in, yes?

I don';t understand this part of your post. Why would you assume there will be no counterclaim? You were the very first person to post after Zajnet claimed - and then you start talking about Zaj being alive tomorrow?? No Giving Scum Ideaz Plz.

[Mr. Flay]

@Flay...Because whoever counter claims would be stupid to give up his real claim. Better lynch a VT now than PR. And I'm not really sure where you think I'm giving scum ideas...

Huh? Explain the first two sentences using different words, please. It's been a LONG time since I played a Doc, but isn't the right thing to do is counterclaim, get one more night protection in, and then lynch the other guy tomorrow?

VOTE: Beefster

- your posts today have been just terrible. You started off voting Zajnet, say you don't want me lynched but 'the scumhunting is fine", then claim Zajnet is a policy lynch and unvote him (while throwing mud at me, jmurph3, and Earlder1), then revote him AFTER the Doctor claim. Run that by me again?

[Mr. Flay]

This is going to sound effing hilarious and just might get me lynched, but I actually thought I was a cop for a while there. I remembered I was town power and wrongly remembered cop and breadcrumbed that, then looked at my role pm to make sure and saw I was a Doc. Hence why no Doc breadcrumbs. It's really a facepalm moment, but whatever. Believe me or don't. I find Beefster's attacks on me after the claim to be very telling. Telling enough to

VOTE: Beefster

It's not that I'm cocky about being able to talk me out of a lynch, it's that I believe in the analytical power of a town to see that I'm really a townie when I really am, and failing that, I can always claim.

Ooooookaaaaaayyyy.... yeah, hilarious.

UNVOTE: Beefster

- I need to meditate on this. Zajnet's claim/behavior gets weirder all the time.

[Mr. Flay]

... the hell? Have you given up already, Zajnet? Why are you talking about Mish-Mash games in a Mafia game??

[Mr. Flay]

So who did you protect N1, me?

[Mr. Flay]

I'm the doctor. I protected Beefster last night.

Sorry, forgot that part of your post for some reason... probably in sheer confusion.

REVOTE: Beefster

- previous reasons still apply. Yes, there's no counterclaim, which means we're either dealing with a truthful claim or a lucky scumclaim. If he's scum though and (apparently) already breadcrumbed Cop, why claim Doc with all the confusion and risk it entails?? I don't understand your reasoning for voting him so quickly, especially before we even had all counterclaims.

Huh? Explain the first two sentences using different words, please. It's been a LONG time since I played a Doc, but isn't the right thing to do is counterclaim, get one more night protection in, and then lynch the other guy tomorrow?

If there was someone to counterclaim, knowing Zajnet was wrong, they would want to keep their mouth shut so as to guarantee a protection tonight. Otherwise, we have one false-claim and one real claim (or two false claims) to deal with, causing all sorts of mayhem. If town lynches the wrong false claim, the real doc will then be under the radar for scum.

Basically, if this

is

a false claim, the real doc would know for sure, and be able to aid in the lynching of scum. Unless this is a false claim by a VT. In which case I'm irritated.

I'm still not following, and we've got all the counterclaims out of the way now so I don't think there's any harm in pursuing it.

If Zajnet's lying AND (50% chance) there's a real Doctor out there, if they counterclaim we KNOW that one of the two is scum. The correct thing to do in that situation is to lynch neither of them today, see who lives, and lynch the other. Scum can't afford to just 'let the Doc live' overnight to breed suspicious, because then the Doctors become essentially confirmed townies, drawing risk onto everyone else AND running the risk of a missed kill which will confirm one Doc for sure. I think... or at least, that's how I approach it.

[Mr. Flay]

@Flay...You seem to be awful keen about getting all the claims out there...

Huhwha?? I only was talking about Doc counterclaims, because I'm perfectly willing to trade scum 1-1. I DON'T want a Cop claim right now, unless they have a guilty.

[Mr. Flay]

Mod:

Beefster unvoted Zajnet. Yes, I know he didn't colorize it...

[Mr. Flay]

@Flay...You seem to be awful keen about getting all the claims out there...

Huhwha?? I only was talking about Doc counterclaims, because I'm perfectly willing to trade scum 1-1. I DON'T want a Cop claim right now, unless they have a guilty.

Why should a cop claim now, regardless of whether or not they have a guilty? If there is a cop, we already have one PR exposed, and exposing another at this stage in the game could prove disastrous for town. The extra information of one guilty is, IMO, not worth exposing the cop at this point.

You're kidding, right? If a Cop were to claim today with a guilty, then we lynch their target. That leaves 1 scum, 1 dead Doc (assuming for the moment that Zajnet is telling the truth), 1 Confirmed (but possibly roleblocked) Cop, and 3 Townies on D3. Two more chances to catch the final Scum; very bad news, even if that first guilty didn't hit the Mafia RB.

[Mr. Flay]

Probably because it left out a few words - "very bad news for scum" or "very good odds for town". It was 2AM, after Marathon Day... I was fried.

[Mr. Flay]

Beefster and Earlder seem scummier to me...
(Beefster because of his Zajnet reaction, and Earlder because of his lurking)

Is Earlder1's lurking the only reason? Because that's pretty much what you were getting on me about, for Zajnet...

Sorry, I should clarify, I didn't mean I felt like he was trying to get "all" of the claims out...it just seemed odd that he would assume finding the real cop would be more beneficial. A possible Zajnet/Flay scum pair, if you will. If Zajnet was trying to buy himself time with a doc claim, or at least draw out a real doc claim, it would be more detrimental to town, and that's why it seemed peculiar to me that Flay would be so dead set on getting a counterclaim.

I don't get this part of your post, STILL. Who is "he" in the beginning of the post- you appear to be talking

to

me and

about

me at the same time.... unless "he" is Zajnet? I didn't feel like he was looking for a Cop, either.

I've slept, and it's still confusing, so I'm asking. Again; I know we've been on this topic for like a page and a half... more posting by other people, please!

[Mr. Flay]

Recap: I think Beefster thought he could get a doc claim lynched. Now he's dropped it without any further word, which only adds to my suspicion, frankly.

We're not lynching Zajnet today.

[Mr. Flay]

OK. So, scumhunt. You've been nonexistent lately except for the Zajhate.

[Mr. Flay]

Say goodnight, Gracie.

VOTE: Mr. Flay

[Mr. Flay]

I'll also say that Beefster, not voting singersigner didn't really help matters either.

That was the moment at which I thought singer had it in the bag. In LyLo, when someone else has already voted you and the other options is a Confirmed Townie, you HAVE to vote for the voter. OMGUS isn't even in it anymore, it just makes sense.

Well-played to singersigner for lasting two days w/o a partner. I knew I was likely to draw the Cop investigation, but I

talked myself out of thinking of jmurph3 as the Cop!

So by the time I realized he had an investigation on me, I had talked myself into a corner by claiming he was pro-town (which she was, in fairness). So I self-hammered to throw confusion (which is only really a valid topic as nabbed scum).

Anyway, don't feel bad about losing, those of you who were Town. It's a learning experience anyway, and this was a good example overall. Would have been a very different game if we'd nailed the Cop N1...

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay, how come you RB's a2rudeboy when Kov was killing him?

Rushing error; that was supposed to be a block on Zajnet, who we thought might be Doc.

[Mr. Flay]

Some of the stuff said in there was ...

ill-advised

. CSL and I agreed to let it pass unseen, though I can summarize/quote bits if you like.

[Mr. Flay]

Nah, it wasn't anything about players. CSL and I got into a fight, essentially.

I'll answer the question about my self-hammer in more detail later; gotta get some work done first before vacation.

[Mr. Flay]

No offense, Flay, but I'm noticing with the more games I watch, that I think I'd probably do much better if I had the opportunity to buss my partner right away, and then go solo, so that way I don't have to worry about being paired up with anyone, or the balancing act of being close, but not too close you know?

But I do think you started out well enough.

Eh; I started off okay, but I HATE getting the Mafia Roleblocker role in this setup - I'm no good at lurking back and not drawing attention to myself, and the Mafia RB's job is to survive, even at the expense of their Goon's life (because the RB can do both actions if alone, but the Goon cannot). I'm inherently argumentative and wordy, and for some reason about twice a game I get the "Flay might be scum, we should lynch him just in case he's fooling us". Combine that with a Cop in a small setup and I was kinda screwed... plus, I didn't have enough time for a really good gambit. My Goon got replaced twice, not that singersigner wasn't an improvement.

As for the self-hammer: It's never* useful to do it as Town, but as a scum it can occasionally throw a wrench into town's works. Scum lynches are GOLD for town, they get to really analyze how potential partners react, vote, stay away, bus, etc... by jmurph3 coming out with the guilty and several people voting right away, I was able to shut down that analysis and throw all votes into question. It's the best of a bad situation when the Cop has you dead to rights, but not until then; you almost always have a chance to talk your way out of a bandwagon short of a Sane Cop/Tracker/whatever result.

* For sufficiently large values of never

[Mr. Flay]

Also, best quote from the Mafia QT:

Ahahaha. I just figured out why jmurph has been pinging 'Cop' to me all game. Lt. Murphy from Dresden Files *facepalm*

[Mr. Flay]

Yeah, for a game without a Cop guilty, it very well might be.