Newbie 1024 -- Minimalist Mafia (Game Over)

[Lateralus22]

Woo, so much irrelevant theory discussion on the starting pages.

#53 (Beefster): The hell, how is

alignment

fishing "not as bad"?

Its not bad at all

. With that logic scum hunting is bad too since we're looking for scum AKA people with the scum alignment.

#56 (Kayi): What's the prove your innocence line about? You're not in any danger of being lynched. Why didn't you voice all your concerns in this post instead of making a case later on? Nothing new IIRC was brought out at that point.

#62 (Mastin): Is it normal for you to be act so personal? Question, did you think your crossed out text was worth enough to post, if so then why discredit it as WIFOM and cross it out?

#64 (Neruz): Hi Neruz. Can you explain the last bit? He hardly placed it to look like it meant something. You are talking about Jay right?

#65 (Kayi): Wee a reaction. What took you so long?

#67 (Beefster): Ah cute. For an IC you're awfully misinformative. What's that about this whole excitement thing being useless? Uh huh, look here at a game where the IC was able to deduce who BOTH scum were with questions of similar nature being a factor in that.

#68 (Beefster): Is there any pro-town meaning to those specific actions?

Note

: Mastin can you PLEASE keep your walls a little more concise? I have no idea what point you're trying to make half the time when what you type is drowned in borderline IoA.

#89 (Jay): Way to be selective. If anyone's trying way too hard it one of the Walls of Text posters so why not voice suspicions on them?

#91 (Mute): Yeah um, no. We shouldn't have to be wondering where the hell you are half the time.

Vote: Kayi

Case and shit later. A few more things that need direct attention.

@Beef

Did you think

alignment

fishing was legit scummy?

@Mute

Put a vote on someone, I don't care how sure of you are of your read, just take a stand. Voting is a great part of voicing your opinion and allows town to get a better read on you.

@Trendall

What's with the lack of vote? Why would you be handing out an FoS instead of a vote? Also what have you learned specifically regarding peoples' alignments via your questions?

Note: Haven't completely read page 5, but PLEASE Mastin keep all this SE teaching nonsense down, I didn't think you'd keep this up the whole game.

[Lateralus22]

[1]Huh? How so? Don't see how that was very personal at all. You're going to have to be more specific and say what exactly in there you see is personal.

Huh. Looking back that wasn't the best example, but it seems its your posting style this game. Well first off this whole entire happy go lucky face you've put on sets weird vibes. A whole lot of your post comes across as hand holding like YOU have to be the teacher to guide everyone through with those gaint blocks of SE fluffery. Let the IC do their job, nothing so far as been so bad that you have to come to the rescue.

It was discredited because it was invalid… (Wall of Text)
Anyway, again, the info looked good, albeit not required, so I kept it in there.

You're contradicting yourself, info can not be good if it was invalid. Explain.

[Lateralus22]

VOTE: Kayi for this

blatant alignment fishing question.

It's not much to go on, but it's more than nothing.

I dunno, it seems like an off question to me in general. It's like the loaded "are you excited" question that I've never been a fan of. It's supposed to fish for power roles.

Good point though. I wasn't thinking of that.

Unvote
I'm stupid.

About the alignment fishing- I couldn't exactly place my finger on what was scummy about the question- it was very much an alignment fishing question,

something that I've never agreed with. Questions like that can be interpreted in nearly any way and aren't even effective at catching scum reliably, at least from my experience.

I wanted to explain my position, but I couldn't figure out how. Thanks, Neruz. So yeah, not as bad as rolefishing, but still enough to throw up some red flags. It's good enough for how far we are in the game.

That said, I'm going to put my vote back on.
VOTE: Kayl

It's the "I know I've seen scum do this somewhere" kind of argument. You also seem to be too logical to be a village idiot which is the other type of player that tends to

alignment fish

.

Granted, it's not much, so we'll see what happens. I've been known to vote and reason pretty weirdly. (voting is much weirder)

At first I did it without thinking. Then 2 guys came along and made some pretty valid points that made me think, so I unvoted. But then Neruz came along and reminded me of why I found it scummy in the first place, so I revoted.

It's exactly what it looks like.

Not so much the alignment part of it. That's good.

The fishing is what I have problems with.

Those kinds of questions can be used in all sorts of fallacious ways.

If you said you liked being Mafia, I could take that to mean "You must be scum then," but I could also take it to mean "You must not be enjoying this game. You are obviously town."

The only kind of fishing I ever agree with is reaction fishing, which is essentially what my play revolves around in the early game. It's risky, yes, but it can sometimes get better information than being more... uh... passive.

@Beef

That's incredibly strange, every time you've mentioned this you've edged closer and close away from your initial accusation, no? I can't possibly see how this could be due to any confusion or not being able to figure out what you wanted to say because you said half of your original point at the time of the revote.

What's worse is you're final conclusion is ridiculous, the italics say you're

condemning her for something she didn't even do!

It would be somewhat understandable if this was what you said initially but keeping your vote on here after this period of time, for that reasoning? No way.

Kayi case will have to wait, probably tomorrow.

HoS

: Beefster

[Lateralus22]

At this point, I can't successfully prove my innocence because there's not enough to go by. No one can, the same way I don't trust any of you and I have already made my own list of suspects. But nothing too scummy to even try to place a vote.

This reaction is very out of place. I'm assuming this is the initial reaction was to Beefster's vote, but her comment with the snip about paranoia looks false. Here's the thing, the whole

Oh I can't trust anyone

thing came out of the blue and it's also comment designed to fit into the mold of a lost townie. The actual comment serves no pro-town purpose, because if it's true she wouldn't say that because that'd let scum know she was more susceptible to manipulation or in the very least one of the more lost individuals here. The thing is scum don't want organization in the town, and that comment lets scum know that they can always turn to certain individuals to make sure that doesn't happen. The whole comment is tending to appearances and I've seen scum do it before.

@Mastin: Well, this type of reasoning I can understand. But it doesn't mean that it indicates the truth. According to your post, we've agreed with voting for Beef. I mean, his RVS vote way before my question, my joke suspicion, and way after that, my actual vote. You suspect Beef as well, for the same reasons I do. There's also the fact that we don't like the the RVS. You agree with that as well, and I don't think it has anything to do with the actual game. But that's it when it comes to agreeing. He's defended me, and only he can answer exactly why. Whether he believes in my innocence or just that none of my actions have been scummy to him, I can't tell. If he's scum and has his own reasons for defending me, I still can't tell. He hasn't been the only one to speak in my favor. And I don't recall any attacks on him I could have defended. I can only say that I'm town, and I have no clue or suspicion of Neruz's alignment. Nothing much I can say after this.

This post really bothers me, the whole entire post reads is an overreaction/nervous energy to something that isn't even scummy. Kayi gives a longwinded explanation as an absolute defense to isolate herself for whatever reason. The explanation sounds fake because of the way they're drawn out and the tone. The longwinded logic explanations walking through the whole scenario while asserting she has no idea what Neruz's motives are sounds forced because they go over the top with making sure all of this is explained.

I just can't see why a town player would go to great lengths on something like this instead of just saying something along the lines of

"Yeah I've agreed with him, what's your point?"

while I can definitely see scum trying to swat away suspicions like that away no matter how small or stupid.

Post 81 is a bit better but the original tone is still present with the unnecessary longwinded explanations, like this is some great evil she has to defeat.

Assuming I didn't misunderstand anything…

wagon time gogogogogogo

====================================

A few questions--1: You're voting Kayi, and HoS'ing Beef: do you believe both are scum, heavily bussing the other on day one?

More likely not, still trying to work that out. Beefster's play is just scummy with the original alignment fishing nonsense and the pretty weak vote. Kayi's more of my gut telling me there's something wrong. My first read through the comments she posted really bothered me and sound false.

If not, then why? 2: Why the delay in the case? (You realize that means I won't be able to read it 'til Monday, most likely, if you wait.) 3: Why the HoS?

Dude it was around 1 AM on a freaken school day and I'm lazy. (Time management is not a skill of mine.) The HoS is there cuz if we aren't lynching Kayi then he is my next choice.

Do you still believe Kayi is a stronger suspect than Beefster?

Yes

[Lateralus22]

No, that's not true at all. I wasn't even touching onto the vote thing in my case.

More on the nervous energy thing with those

specific reactions

when you linked her up to Neruz plus being unnecessarily longwinded. The comment regarding paranio just feels fake to me too. It's kinda hard me to summarize but it's definetely not just "long posts"

Btw, I don't buy that defense from her because not all her other posts don't fit in that persona either. For example her case on Beefster didn't give me the same vibes.

[Lateralus22]

...Read my first post of the game, it's in bold.

What's your view on my points against Kayi?

[Lateralus22]

Did a quick Iso check of Yenros and Mute does make a good point, what I've noticed about him is that all his posts are mostly towards Jay. I do appreciate looking in other directions but it is concerning to see him being oblivious to the rest of the game because that's where most of the controversy is.

Yenros, what's your read on Kayi/Beefster?

[Lateralus22]

Vote's going back on Beefster. I was waiting to see how he was going to react to L22's pushing, apparantly he's decided to not read L22's posts and not react at all.

VOTE: Beefster

FOS: Kayi

If L22 has a vote, that was the hammer. Good job.

I'm a vanilla townie.

I use risky tactics such as pressure voting and reaction fishing. I tend to suspect everyone, and everyone tends to suspect me at some point. I've been lynched in nearly every game I've played in.

This will be my last time in a newbie game. I don't seem to be good at this "teaching" thing. I'm even worse at being a good example player.

Way to side step away from my questions and to continue not reading the freaken thread.

My vote is on Kayi, it always has been, Mastin has even questioned me about it on this page.

There is no way you just claimed without reading the thread when you're the IC because you thought you were lynched at this point, regardless of how often you're lynched. I would love to see a Beefster lynch after a bit of questioning and hearing Kayi's take on this.

The reasoning on this claim bugs me even more because even if he is a townie this will allow scum to keep a scummy player behind narrowing down the possible pool of pr's they could night kill.

Mod: Can we have a vote count?

Check the next page

[Lateralus22]

Isn't placing a random vote late in a stage where people have already begun to put some logic behind their votes something scum would not want to do? It would surely draw attention to yourself, and the only reason for scum to place random votes is to slip by unnoticed. Placing the random vote when I did was exactly what scum would want to avoid doing, and, if anything, it only shows my inexperience.

This is WIFOM.

[Lateralus22]

How is the "I've agreed with him, what's your point?" line pro-town? It would have been a lie. I knew the point he was trying to make and I wasn't going to pretend I didn't.

A clear cut answer would have made more sense instead of continuing to assert you have no idea what his motives were when it was such a small matter.

Plus You and Neruz have

both

stated you agreed on certain things, I'm not sure why you're still trying to swat down this suspicion Mastin suggested when it isn't actually scummy. Can you honestly tell me it isn't true?

According to your post, we've agreed with voting for Beef. I mean, his RVS vote way before my question, my joke suspicion, and way after that, my actual vote.

We've matched opinions on alignment fishing as well as the RVS, you also concured with me about Beef leaving himself an escape route and that was in fact one of the three reasons why you voted him.

============================

Most of my posts on this game have been long-winded and I struggle to keep them shorter for the reader's sake, but I don't understand what's wrong with trying to explain oneself correctly

You're blatantly strawmanning my argument to make look weaker than it is. I already explained this. If you didn't just dismiss it "this, this, and that" you'd be able to argue against my gut read when I've logically laid it out to support my reasoning. Interesting to note how you haven't actually directly denied anything I said, but instead tried to bash the credibility of what I said.

If you're using a Meta that doesn't even include me how is that even valid?

I don't even consider what I used as Meta, it's game theory. If I was using meta it'd be more along of

"Ok since she did this in her last game as scum and did that here so she must be scum"

, but that isn't what I did. I didn't even place much stock in that being from another game and I put reasoning from

this

game in my case.

============================

It leaves me wondering what L22 is trying to accomplish by using such a small comment to make a case.

Way to beat around the bush, do you think I'm scum or not?

He seems to be afraid of saying more than strictly necessary.

Elaborate

Btw, Beefster and Kay, both of your latest posts are completely ignoring each other despite being eachother's top suspects. Why?

[Lateralus22]

The debate on the agreeing thing is over, I don't get why you're bringing it up again.

Because we're both talking about it and I brought up something new? Are you saying I should be ignoring that part of thread just because "it was discussed a little bit before"?

If that wasn't meta usage to some degree, why did you link to that other game? You're trying to engage me in a battle of concepts and theory ignoring the actual content of my words. I definitely don't like that.

…Because it supports my theory? Everything except the link is talking about your play in

this

game. I refuse to repeat myself when you're obviously ignoring what's right there.

On the Trendall thing, what is there to elaborate?

He said that he his computer broke down, I wanted to know if you thought he was lying.

The one thing I've seen that makes me strongly doubt you is that, even when you seem to have found more in-game evidence to attack Beefster, you're just sticking to your gut and trying to explain it. I don't know what to think about that.

...Im attacking both of you. You're trying to put a bad spin on scum hunting, that's scummy.

My points on Beefster were made clear, I don't see why I should repeat them ten times over.

…I wasn't asking you to repeat yourself, I was asking you to comment on his latest posts.

===========================================================================

Trendall's not posting I don't see as an issue yet

Lurking is bad bad bad bad bad. I can't see any pro town motivation to it so it is anti-town. Simply put, it just means you aren't looking for scum or in the very least not helping as much as you can. Active lurking however (Posting in the thread but not actually posting any content) is scummy though because you're there but not actually scum hunting.

@Beefster, you are not being lynched for your play style, I

don't

think you've been playing in some unorthodox way style at all. You're simply not reading the thread at all and ignoring my questions, you didn't even check the vote count before you claimed.

I'm ready to hammer Beefster some time tomorrow unless anyone has any objections.

[Lateralus22]

responding to prod, will try to get something later

[Lateralus22]

did a quick skim, something better later.

btw Mastin when you explain why something is scummy of another person (in order to accuse them) that shit stays out of SE tags. not seeing how Beefster is being a pro town player trying to get all the information out either

[Lateralus22]

I'm not saying you should ignore it, I just don't see what's the point on discussing this matter further. You said what I thought, I told you what it was.

I brought up something

new

, that's why.

What I'm trying to say is that I could very well say an opposite theory and back it up with a different game.

Alright, let's see you do that. I'm hearing empty claims about OH I CAN DO THIS AND THAT,

but I don't see you actually bringing anything up.

If you plan on doing this no bull shit explanations plz.

Exactly how am I dismissing scumhunt?

The one thing I've seen that makes me strongly doubt you is that, even when you seem to have found more in-game evidence to attack Beefster, you're just sticking to your gut and trying to explain it. I don't know what to think about that.

Could this be an a subtle attempt to dismiss gut reads? I think so. Am I misunderstanding your post? Btw I'd say the evidence is about equal, I would have been campaigning for your lynch more heavily if Beef bothered to read the thread instead of claiming early.

What I found interesting is your vote, taking into account that you said this:

Okay, could you tell me what exactly do you find interesting about that? What does interesting even mean? There is absolutely nothing wrong with guts reads and I did logically explain mine so I don't see where the absolute gut hate is coming from.

Could I ask you to quote my entire post next time, instead of just the lines you're addressing? Just to keep the context absolutely intact.

Perhaps, if it really is bothering you that much. I find that quoting entire posts add more clutter while single lines to be more concise. Have I taken anything you said out of context?

===========================================================================

Also, as I see that he said he is prepared to hammer beef without addressing my placing a vote on him.

"Shrugs" The accusations were made after my post, nor did I see anything wrong with it when I read it. Tone feels off on Mute. Actually it feels like I've been going on like 1/3ish of the players here so I'm gonna try and reevaluate that particular read from players >.>

Both town and scum are worried of coming across as scummy, or they should be. Trying to not sound scummy is, on a town player, a pro-town thing to do. The problem is achieving it…

This is ridiculous. Surviving is less important than lynching scum. Even if you get lynched you still win with your faction. If you are town then it should come off naturally as you scum hunt, scum have to fake scum hunting while town does it for real. If everyone's worried their image and not getting lynched, then there isn't any difference between the two except that's what scum does to win.

I think I actually agree with Trend on Beef's actions now. Seems to me that, at l;east in theory, a town player that is likely to be mislynched would want to get out as much info for the town as possible before being lynched.

I hardly consider Beef's "reaction hunting" votes to be getting as much information out as possible. It looked like a half assed attempt to do something. Something like this be a better effort.

Hey Beef, have you made a serious non reaction hunting vote the whole game?

Post #203 from Trendall feels a bit weird. Can you sum it up in a few sentences as it comes off unclear. I don't disagree with Mastin's theory though in general but I can understand where Trendall was coming from in this situation.

Post #204 Jay really needs to do something. What's your thoughts on everything going on?

[Lateralus22]

Content/Fluff ratio for Mastin is ridiculous. What are your actual reads again?

[Lateralus22]

I'm still not even sure if what Beef is saying truly qualifies as reaction fishing >.>

If it is then like... everything in this game is reaction fishing.

[Lateralus22]

Jay, there is no mention of Neruz in your Iso at all. Why have you neglected mentioning him, and also what's your read on him?

[Lateralus22]

Wee, around 25 hours. Here's the thing, when I come back from school tomorrow I'll say an hourish amount of time for mafia. When I come back I'll hammer (for realz this time), if I don't, I expect someone else to hammer as no lynch is TERRIBLE and gives town the lowest statistical chance of winning.

[Lateralus22]

Vote; Kayi

Will try to reread the thread later.

[Lateralus22]

Mhm, Neruz makes a good point. Actually I've face a similar situation in two games. So because of one of these game I feel if we do no lynch we should make sure everyone is here Asap.

Though I'm still totally cool with a Kayi lynch, we should spend the least amount of time needed discussing the no-lynch option. (It'll clog up the thread hard core >.>) Neither option is horrible.

So, yeah, everyone check in plox and take your pick. Also was anyone not logged in during the night?

[Lateralus22]

Disagreed, that would only help scum with nk selections. Hence why we decide first which one we choose.

[Lateralus22]

Trendall explained it better than I did.

VOTE: No lynch

[Lateralus22]

@Trendall & Lateralus: Lat, you from the get go were all Eager McBeaver to lynch Kayi, but then Trendall posts and you side with him soon after. I've had my suspicions of you both, but Lat's actions are definitely not something to dismiss.

By "EagerBeaver" are you talking about this phase or the last?

Oh, nice Info. Now can you tell me why that's actually scummy? There's nothing wrong at all with agreeing with someone, moreover it wasn't even Trendall who suggested no-lynch would be the better option. Why did you leave Neruz out in your observation?

What do you think think about the benefits of no lynching now?

[Lateralus22]

Insofar that I suspected your actions from the past day and they carried over and are/were increased today.

Seriously? My first post this phase has got to be one of my post laziest posts of this game.

That Neruz was the first to bring it up, but soon after Trendall posts after your exchange with Neruz you side with Trendall. That is the main reason for my voting for you.

Ok, why is that

scummy?

I read the part about outing potential pr roles and I realized No-Lynch be a much better option when before I was just thinking about nk selections in general.

[Lateralus22]

That's stupid. There is no reason if I was scum I would take a shot at Kayi when she was the runner up for the lynch (Yeah yeah WIFOM but bear with me), moreover I don't even know why you as the doctor would even protect her, especially when you voiced suspicions against her the previous day.

Can you explain that?

[Lateralus22]

EBWOP: There is no reason if I was scum I

why

would take a shot at Kayi when she was the runner up for the lynch

Typo >.>

[Lateralus22]

Huh... isn't actually a typo. I need some sleep >.>

[Lateralus22]

Lat votes for him without giving any reason

Oh God, where were you when I made a whole ENTIRE GODDAMN case the previous day? Do I seriously need to repeat everything I do for you?

The association with Trendall? as you can see here, he says he will place the hammer vote (again), or that someone else will, and when he doesn't Trendall does.

…Mute. You're stating random observations but not explaining WHY it's scummy. Yeah I said I would hammer, the game felt like it was at a standstill and everything was decided, I asked if anyone had any objections. No one did. I didn't hammer as IIRC I wasn't available the next day and the discussion picked up again.

So what if Trendall hammered? I asked anyone to hammer, and I'm glad he did. If he didn't hammer it probably would have been a no lynch, this is only scummy if a no lynch would have been the pro town choice, and it wasn't. I don't even know why you're complaining about this when you're saying you don't like no lynches.

he claims that it is better to not lynch, and unlike Neruz states that:

This is a little unclear to me, are you talking about how I said no lynch day 1 was bad? If so, that is a blatant misrep, there is a HUGE difference between doing it day 1 and day 2.

This I admit is a weak example, but soon after trendall posts that and votes to no lynch, L22 is right behind him with a no lynch as well.

With this crap logic you're literally saying anyone who happens to be "associated" with another person twice is automatically scum. That's not true.

[Lateralus22]

Lateral: Why didn't you mention that your reason for voting was your case yesterday until just now?

I thought it was insanely obvious.

Regarding No-Lynch

Bleh, I do think Mute is probably town. Doc claim is more likely because of the lack of counter claim but the nk selections and outing now make no sense from a town perspective player unless Mute is a ridiculously compulsive player and I didn't get that impression from him so that still leaves me confused. That would leave the choice of him being a VT screwing around but I don't think that's the case now.

No lynch probably isn't the best option now though I'm still trying to grasp my mind around it.

My suspicion is that L22 and whomever else is mafia is piggy backing onto someone else to spread the suspicion from them. I only bring this up because it's a tactic I used when I played a game before and was mafia in it, and to some extent it worked.

Spreading suspicion how? How the hell does Trendall "piggybacking" my request to hammer day 1 spread any suspicion at all? What suspicion is being spread via piggybacking?

Maybe I'm wrong in suspecting L22, but it is what my head and gut tells me.

Your head been ignoring my posts pointing out why your logic is wrong. Your gut is off too.

This is the first and for now only time I will accuse him of being one because frankly I do not suspect him of it.

I'm not understanding this at all, You voiced suspicions about him day 1 and day 2.

[Lateralus22]

so many walls post game. Didn't read them.

some things though,

1. Never wanted to replace out

2. Everything Mute said was wrong other than I was scum, I played as if I would as a townie. I had a case against Kayi, and I wasn't even going to try and lynch her for the day. I had a rather methodical plan thought out until end game and even calculated what I'd need to do and even prepared some Cop bread crumbs in case I needed them.

3. Mute's claim actually wasn't that bad. Here's why, Kayi and Mute were of the two most suspected players of the game. That claim should have cleared them both, and allow the players to lower down the lynch pool. Was the timing bad, maybe, but it was a decent move this game.

4. Don't lynch pr roles just cuz they've been playing stupid, you guys should have lynched someone else.

5. Be consistent, I couldn't tell if the town players legitemetly forget what you said or they were lying about their suspicions/actions. A few contradictions lying around there.

6. Ghostlin should have made a quick turn around on the last day, here's why. He was confirmed town so anyone suspecting him was being silly, Trendall actually made a very good point about Mastin not lynching Nacho.

7. Post more, I was hoping on day 2 the game would die because of lack of interest and then go into a no lynch. More time means scum can prepare themselves better, townies had the ability to go on the fly and shoot rapid honest answers.

8. Stop posting walls, they are very anti-town. Mastin had some pretty glaring tells IIRC, a quick skim actually revealed this but he did make a good job seeming like he cared which is why I suppose he wasn't lynched.

[Lateralus22]

heh. I was kinda annoyed you didn't read my C++ game, that was my favorite game where I actually broke my wall posting habit.

[Lateralus22]

I won't comment on Beefster, Lat, Mastin unless they want me to (since they've long left the stage of newbiehood).

So this is why I feel forgotten O_O

I wouldn't mind any comments, just sayin.

[Lateralus22]

M

hm, Neruz makes a good point.

A

ctually I've face a similar situation in two games.

S

o because of one of these game I feel if we do no lynch we should make sure everyone is here Asap.

T

hough I'm still totally cool with a Kayi lynch, we should spend the least amount of time needed discussing the no-lynch option. (

I

t'll clog up the thread hard core >.>)

N

either option is horrible.

Yeah, I was considering fake claiming cop with an investigation result on Mastin, I didn't decide if I wanted to fake claim Innocent or say I had a guilty.