Newbie 1024 -- Minimalist Mafia (Game Over)

[Jay]

Well since I suck at random day 1 votes I consulted the elders (random.org) and they told me to

Vote: Mute

.

[Mute]

@Mastin: It's a game forum for an MMO which I've quit a while back. Currently the site's on their... what, 7th game so far? Two/three of the members there brought the game up, and it's kinda taken off. Though theres still a kinda niche community there that plays, the highest amount of players we've had in a game ever is 21, if memory serves.

and trust me, I know what you mean when you say you're an analytical player, I'm much the same. Though, as is shown from the games I've participated on there, I've a knack for a first/second day lucky guess at finding a mafia member (which in the last game i played there even amazed the mod of the game. My role then was the mute hobo, and on day 2 I pegged the godfather of the mafia's side.)

@Kayi: I've only ever been mafia once, but I've enjoyed both playstyles. Being able to collude with a team is great when it comes to decision making, but theres a lot of planning that went into trying to decide whom to kill and when to do it. Granted the game where I was a mafia member was a rather... Well, experimental game I'd guess... The mod had set up groups of masons, and two mafia teams, where each mason group consisted of 3 people that were allowed to talk amongst themselves freely, but only within their own mason groups. That was a real challenge, and even moreso when the mod made some errors with the night actions.

Though, being town is fun as well. Whether it was as a vanilla townie, or to the extreme of a mute hobo (i was only allowed to vote and quote others. Lemme tell you, that was a challenge; and yes I was made the mute role as an ironic joke as over on the other site my username's Mute as well.), the guessing and intrigue of trying to agree on whom we suspect to be a mafia member, trying to prove our town-alignment, and just watching others do the same, it is all well fun.

So, yeah, either or I enjoy playing for different reasons.

[Yenros]

As I've only played one other game, I can't really answer your question yet. Also, I'm wondering the same thing as Trendall, how could that answer possible tell you someone's alignment?

@ Jay, now seems like a very odd time to place a random vote. Why wouldn't you place it when you answered Trendall's questions (timezone, availability, gender, ect.)?

My original vote was random, and this seems slightly suspiciuos to me, so for the time being,

Vote Jay

.

[Beefster]

I've been stuck at my church all day working on a haunted house. I got home about 20 minutes ago.

About the alignment fishing- I couldn't exactly place my finger on what was scummy about the question- it was very much an alignment fishing question, something that I've never agreed with. Questions like that can be interpreted in nearly any way and aren't even effective at catching scum reliably, at least from my experience.

I wanted to explain my position, but I couldn't figure out how. Thanks, Neruz. So yeah, not as bad as rolefishing, but still enough to throw up some red flags. It's good enough for how far we are in the game.

That said, I'm going to put my vote back on.
VOTE: Kayl

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count 2

• Kayi

  (Mujex - Beefster)
  
  
  Beefster
  (Neruz)
  
  
  Neruz
  (Mute)
  
  
  Mute
  (Jay)
  
  
  Jay
  (Yenros)
  
  
  Not Voting
  (Kayi - Mastin - Trendall)

With nine alive, it takes five to lynch.
Current Deadline: Nov. 17th, 2010 at 12:00 AM (CST)

[Neruz]

Heh, for a moment there i thought there were three votes on someone and was like "What, when did that happen?"

[Kayi]

@Beef, I won't deny that your reasoning seems weird to me. You're admitting that you don't know why you found it scummy, while also admitting that you just don't like this sort of question. It seems to me like your vote is based purely on that personal preference.

At this point, I can't successfully prove my innocence because there's not enough to go by. No one can, the same way I don't trust any of you and I have already made my own list of suspects. But nothing too scummy to even try to place a vote.

[Jay]

@ Jay, now seems like a very odd time to place a random vote. Why wouldn't you place it when you answered Trendall's questions (timezone, availability, gender, ect.)?

I chose to place my vote then instead of when I was answering Trendall's questions because, like I said, I'm not used to random votes, so I wanted to try and make a vote that made some sort of sense instead of just picking some person whose name I didn't like, or something like that. However, I really didn't find anyone suspicious and decided to just use random.org instead.

[Yenros]

@Jay: If you wanted a vote on reason, then you could have been like Kayi or trendall, who both prefer to vote on reason rather then random, and chose to have no vote until they have reason.

[Beefster]

@Beef, I won't deny that your reasoning seems weird to me. You're admitting that you don't know why you found it scummy, while also admitting that you just don't like this sort of question. It seems to me like your vote is based purely on that personal preference.

It's the "I know I've seen scum do this somewhere" kind of argument. You also seem to be too logical to be a village idiot which is the other type of player that tends to alignment fish.

Granted, it's not much, so we'll see what happens. I've been known to vote and reason pretty weirdly. (voting is much weirder)

[Neruz]

I've been known to vote and reason pretty weirdly. (voting is much weirder)

*eyebrow*

That sounds a lot like an escape route.

[Mujex]

Sorry for my absence I did not have acces to internet this weekend. I like to play mafia because you get a very rewarding win if you get to win third party is fun too you have a power and that's nice, townie is nice if you have a great team in the town. I only played 2 games before, I was mafia and won and the other townie and lost. I hope you can remain objective towards my personal preferences.

Unvote: Kayi

It was a random vote I do not find her scumy right now. I will now wait for someone to stand out. Jay's random vote seems a bit odd.

@Heather

, Do you find anyone scumy right now ?

[Mastin]

Typed over the weekend, without looking beyond Beefster's first post after mine:
Fun fact about me: I’m a writer. Interesting fact about writers: they have an overactive imagination. Fascinating fact about overactive imaginations: can very,

very

often lead to extreme paranoia.

Anyway, I am typing this up over the weekend. I’m trying to keep at bay all the negative thoughts: a bandwagon forming in two days without me being able to voice my opinion, being replaced over the weekend, failing the mod, that kind of thing. Mostly, though, I’m anticipating the start of the new week, and how I’ll have quite some load of work to do in this game.

I suspect that if it wasn’t beginning to end already (it certainly seemed that way), the RVS will truly be over by the time I come back. (Sorry if I

did

end it before you’d have preferred. As I said, I tend to dislike the RVS.) So, I probably will have more to work off of.

However, I don’t have much, right now. Trendall to me at first glance seems town. Beefster actually looks far less so, to me. Not to the point where I’d call Beefster a suspect, but to the point where he looks like a figure of interest.

However, if this MIGMEOY (minor IGMEOY) were indeed true (we’ll see as the game develops), that would mean my Neruz suspicion would be lessened, because who’d want to vote for their buddy? Okay, so most people would, but would a newbie do it on the first post of the first day, when their partner is the IC? Not unless the IC told them the night before. (I realize this might seem a bit WIFOM-y, but it’s just a psychological thing, to me. I tend to be good at reading emotions online. And this is something which falls under that category. A newbie would simply be too afraid to immediately vote for their buddy, without any votes previously. It’s just…something I know, okay? Call it gut if you must.)*
Therefore, I think I’m going to conclude that one of Neruz and Beefster are town. It’s possible both are, and I suppose it’s possible I’m wrong and neither are, though I doubt it.

So, I’ll keep both under observation.

*Inversely, newbie scum buddies tend to go with their partner a lot unless specifically told not to. Also, this doesn’t really apply as more votes come in—the more people who have voted, the more comfortable scum will be in voting for someone, no matter who.

So, this pretty much only applies to Neruz.

Wait…
Oh, nevermind. I think that Neruz has played before, which means anything about being a complete newbie applying above is negated. Ha. We all have our moments…

Anyway,

Usually i've found the real discussion begins when someone breaks out of random voting and puts down a vote they actually mean, or look like they mean.

Okay, a few questions about this…
1: Where does this experience come from?
2: Why do you think this is true?
3: What do you see as the difference between a vote they mean and look like they mean?

I’m liking Kayi right here, though that

might

be my personal bias towards not liking the RVS. I tend to disagree that they’re truly random; a more accurate word would be “random”—as in, meant to appear as random; they aren’t always. So, on occasion, you can deduce things from them.

The question Kayi asks might not be that helpful (I’ve seen it many times before), but I believe it was a genuine attempt at getting discussion going. I still would like an answer to my original question, though. (It most likely will have one by the time I’m back.) If I get an answer I like, I can call Kayi town. 
I believe another player besides Mute mentioned having played on another forum, but I forgot to ask them which one. When I come back, I’ll see who it was and ask them.

I’m hoping Beefster will address points in my post by the time he comes back—I was waiting, but a couple hours after he responded to Trendall, I still had nothing. At the very least, there are two things worthy of addressing:
1: My definitions of IGMEOY, mFoS, FoS, and HoS.
And 2: My asking him about his random vote. It would be nice to see both answered, and if they aren’t, I still expect one after I post this.

Anyway, that’s about it. Having no access, this is really all I can do over the weekend, waiting. (I shoulda opened another tab to the first page, so I could do weekend notes on there, too. D’oh.)

When I come back, hopefully, all my questions and stuff will be answered—the responses and reactions are what I need most to do a proper analysis of a player.

[Mastin]

VOTE: Kayi for this blatant alignment fishing question.

I find this response interesting. It seems to be making a lot out of nothing. (What was that, Strawmanning? Or was that making a lot

into

nothing? Ahg, I'm so rusty.)
Why did you think this to be true, Beefster? To me, it read as a kind of icebreaker, I suppose, which I've seen in a few other Newbie Games I've been reading. Nothing unusual.

It's like the loaded "are you excited" question that I've never been a fan of. It's supposed to fish for power roles.

Might I ask why you think that question is loaded?

Anyway, that's a brief version of page 2. I'll read Page 3, might not get a chance to respond before I have to leave for a few hours, but I'll be back at 1 pm to wrap up any loose ends. (That is, ask for any answers I haven't gotten, respond to things I glanced over, that kind of thing which rushing causes.)

---

Does Mute already have a vote? If so, Jay might've been the first to start a wagon.

Nevermind. Have to go; be back soon!

[Neruz]

1: Where does this experience come from?

From my aforementioned time playing mafia on the Bay12 forums.

2: Why do you think this is true?

Because everyone knows that random votes are random and thus meaningless, there is no threat from a coin flip and if there is no threat then there is no pressure.

3: What do you see as the difference between a vote they mean and look like they mean?

There is no difference, perception is reality, although evidence that a vote was only placed to look like it was meant, when in fact it was not, is a pretty solid scumtell.

[Kayi]

@Yenros: Jay's timing to do a random vote seemed weird to me as well, but I don't see why it would be scummy. So I have to ask, why do you find it suspicious?


@Mujex: As I said, I'm very well aware that the fact that you like playing as Mafia better doesn't automatically mean that you're mafia. Also, Heather was replaced, so I don't think her answer is relevant.


@Mastin: I'm sorry I didn't respond to your question before. I thought the explanation was implicit in the post you just linked, where I said I didn't like the RVS and that I find random votes to be unhelpful when it comes to the actual game. As Yenros very accurately said, I vote on reason. I don't vote on anyone unless I consider they're acting particularly scummy. But I get your concern - isn't Beef's avatar suspicious? The silhouette of a man -red no less- standing with a gun in the night lookin' all scummy and ready to kill...
Okay, I hope I made my point clear. My answer to the vote on Beef was meant as a joke, however awful it was.


@Beef: The only thing I can do right now is to rest my case and let my actions, present and future, do the talking. You can't logically argue against a weird reasoning process, can you? On another note, you're seeming very suspicious to me now though, because of the following reasons:

1) As I implied on the paragraph above, that "I'm known for being weird at reasoning/voting" thing seems like a really weak defense, one that could apply to any scummy action and can't be fully argued against with logic. As Neruz said, it definitely looks like an escape route, specially after being called out on something that seemed irrational.

2) Your voting-unvoting-voting sequence. The fact that you voted for me for what you considerent blatant alignment-fishing, then when some users said your vote seemed weird you agreed and unvoted, and when someone gave you a tiny reason to reinstate your vote, you did. This, paired up with that "It was an 'I've seen scum do this somewhere'" line... If you did, why did you unvote in the first place, when people said they didn't think my question was scummy? It seemed to me like you were insecure when people called you out, and when you saw something that could somehow back up your case, you tried rescuing it to make it seem like you had a legitimate excuse for your claims since the beginning.

3) It strikes me as odd that you questioned Trendall's questions because you deemed them irrelevant, and voted for me for making a question you deemed relevant. And answered none, I might note, though that one fact doesn't say much. Except that if you believe that a question was an alignment-fishing one and you didn't respond to it, it could be because you're afraid of being alignment-fished. Mind you, I wouldn't accuse anyone who chose not to respond as being mafia, so the not answering thing is something very,

very

minor.

Vote: Beefster.

Though I'm very open to be convinced of the opposite.

[Yenros]

I find Jay's random vote suspicious, because he could have placed it when others were, but instead holds off and places it now, when others are placing votes with at least a little reason now. Also, he says he does not like random votes, in which case it would have been more reasonable to not place a vote. Finally, he does so with no other content. At this point it is a minor thing, and the only thing that really seems suspicious to me at this point in the game.

[Beefster]

[IC]Generally, it is a good idea to read the thread to make sure a RV is appropriate before posting a random vote.[/IC]

VOTE: Kayi for this blatant alignment fishing question.

I find this response interesting. It seems to be making a lot out of nothing. (What was that, Strawmanning? Or was that making a lot

into

nothing? Ahg, I'm so rusty.)
Why did you think this to be true, Beefster? To me, it read as a kind of icebreaker, I suppose, which I've seen in a few other Newbie Games I've been reading. Nothing unusual.

Yes, it's essentially an icebreaker. I don't want us to waste much time on RVS. Or the RQS.

It's like the loaded "are you excited" question that I've never been a fan of. It's supposed to fish for power roles.

Might I ask why you think that question is loaded?

It can be interpreted in almost any way. Based on someone's answer, you could make a conclusion that appears logical, while in reality, it has no logic to it. (I guess that isn't quite the definition of a loaded question)

Specific to the "are you excited to play?" question: It tells you one of 2 things: the player is nothing more than excited to play or the player has a power role. It's inconclusive, so using it to scumhunt is absolutely ridiculous.

Regarding the question Kayl asked: It's not only an irrelevant question, but players might respond differently based on their alignment. Most people, especially scum, would say they prefer to be town to avert suspicion. Or one could use any "scum" response to mean that you are scum. Honestly, I think that sort of question belongs in general discussion, not in a game. If you try to use it for game purposes, it won't work.

[Beefster]

Check out my past games. Notice how weirdly I change my vote in general. I have meta to back it up.
I'm throwing the fact out there so it doesn't surprise you all later.

[Jay]

I find Jay's random vote suspicious, because he could have placed it when others were, but instead holds off and places it now, when others are placing votes with at least a little reason now. Also, he says he does not like random votes, in which case it would have been more reasonable to not place a vote. Finally, he does so with no other content. At this point it is a minor thing, and the only thing that really seems suspicious to me at this point in the game.

The timing of that vote was mainly because of my inexperience with mafia games. See, I had been planning on waiting for a reason to vote for someone, but, since I'm stupid and didn't know exactly how the game worked, I thought there was some sort of time limit to have your votes in by, because on past games I've played, it is usually said that "Day 1 ends on [...] at [...] PM/AM," and if you did not vote by that time you received a thing called a phantom vote. I was worried I'd receive one of them, and thought that I'd better have my vote in by that time, when I posted my vote, so I just decided to go with a random one instead.

[Mastin]

Alright, I have four hours, today. It's time for me to get in the game.
("Wait, what were you doing before, then?!?" Umm...preparation for being in the game?
More seriously, I chose the exact right moment to be able to replace in...but replaced in on the worst day possible, Friday. I couldn't really get into the game before I had to leave. Monday, therefore, is my day to truly begin the game, 'cause it's the start of the week.)
Anyway, I apologize for the length. (My title was earned, remember? ) Hopefully, this will be my longest post in the game. (I'd hate to scare you off, now, wouldn't I? )

---

Page 1 brief summary:
Neruz votes Beef,
Kayi expresses agreement,
Trendall's questions,
Kayi mentions playing on another forum. I believe I forgot to inquire before about which one.
Mute does the same; I did inquire, and I have an answer, now, I believe.
Yenros votes Mujex,
Beef votes Tren,
Neruz mentions experience; I do not believe I asked, because I felt he gave enough info.
Mujex votes Kayi
And that's it. I believe I've covered most of this before.

---

Now for page 2:
Beef inquires 'bout Trend's questions. (Beef is voting Trend at the time.)
Mute votes Neruz.
Neruz answers Mute.
Trend answers Beef's inquiry. (And one by me, I suppose.)
Yen says his experience is RVS>RQS, essentially.
Neruz's experience is that the RVS is worthless, and that the game begins when someone places a real vote.
Kayi Agrees, and also posts an icebreaker-type question. (That's what I understood the intentions to be, anyway. Get the game rolling.)

I didn't express it as a question, so I never got an answer to this:

Neruz

, Why'd you vote for Beefster, our IC? (Still GMEOY.)
Also,

Beefster, Trendall

: What do you think of the definitions I gave? Are they good? Is there any you disagree with? (Not really a game question, so much as an SE+IC thing. Call it a "Teacher's Conference", of sorts. )
For that matter, what do you think of my opinion on SE's?

Kayi:

In your first post, you seemed to be expressing agreement with Neruz's vote on Beefster above. Why if you were agreeing, did you not back it up with a vote?

(Answered on page 3.)

Beefster:

I would still like an answer to another part of my post:

VOTE: Trendall for being the first to confirm. Somebody's excited to play.

Might I ask why you think this? 'Cause when I do a random vote off of confirmation, it's the opposite for me.

You answer Trend about it, when he asked if it was serious. (You said "not really". The inner psychologist in me is screaming Weasel Wording to that, itself. But assuming it's a flat-out "no", my question was different.)

I like Yen's reaction to Beef; it seemed town. It could have been him defending Kayi, though.

I dunno, it seems like an off question to me in general. It's like the loaded "are you excited" question that I've never been a fan of. It's supposed to fish for power roles. Good point though. I wasn't thinking of that.

Unvote

I'm stupid.

Something in here seems off. Call it gut, but this statement rubs me the wrong way. Maybe it's the small contradiction between thinking it's an off question and admitting Neruz has a point? Could be that he's connecting it to a different question which to me seems rather unrelated. Maybe his unvote and--if I remember the details of page three--later vote again (making him vote-happy) is concerning me. Maybe it's all or none of the above. It's...Something here just isn't right. I wish I could put my finger on it.

Fishing, being passive, is relatively easy to deny and thus is a tool the scum like to use.

[SE]

It also runs both ways: Fishing, being something so general, is also a really easy accusation to make against someone. I've had it used against me dozens of times, when none of them were intentional. (More experienced players tend not to use fishing as an argument, 'cause often times, they'll find it's a bit hypocritical to do so. In my experience, anyway; most of the times I accused others of fishing, I was potentially [though not intentionally] guilty of it, and most of the times people accused me of doing it, I pointed out things in their very same post the accusation is in which showed how they could be seen as doing the same.)

[/SE]

Kayi answers why she asked the question.

---

Okay, that's page 2. Now, for Page 3. There will be more here, of course, being our current page.
Mute explains his experience. Thanks. (I'd respond to a lot of what you're saying; I can related. However, it's off-topic, and this post is already long enough.)

I'm really liking Yen's post here, except for one thing...
Yenros had earlier defended Kayi from Beefster. Now, he's doubting her.

Yenros:

Why the change?

Beefster's Answer puts some of my doubts to rest. However,

That said, I'm going to put my vote back on.
VOTE: Kayl

THAT did

not

. I do not like this revote at all, when the concerns about Kayi's vote had been addressed previously. It also shows a bit of vote-happiness, something which I frown upon strongly. VERY strongly. ESPECIALLY with the concerns involved already answered, with no further reasoning for the vote given.

Beefster:

do explain yourself, please.

You also seem to be too logical to be a village idiot which is the other type of player that tends to alignment fish.

For reference, in my experience, alignment-fishing is harmless. Completely null. No alignment associated with it. No player type associated with it. (Okay, so "play to win"-type people will use it more than "play to have fun"-type people*.)

*It's a theory I'm developing about eight player types. I'll make a wiki article about it when I have the time.

Neruz brings up a valid point, though Beefster defends that it's his meta to basically do so. (Am I wrong?)

[2]Unvote: Kayi It was a random vote I do not find her scummy right now. I will now wait for someone to stand out. Jay's random vote seems a bit odd.
[1] @Heather, Do you find anyone scummy right now ?

[1]I replaced Heather, Mujex. Also, why did you address Heather? Was it for not posting? For being gone like you were?
[2]

FoS: Mujex

. You mention waiting to vote until someone stood out. And then, you mention Jay standing out...without voting. Care to explain yourself?

Kayi answered my question. It seems believable, but somewhat questionable at the same time. (Let's compromise and call it neutral, for now. ) However, this is a good post, 'cause it brought up points I, myself, had been noticing above. Wow.

---

Okay, I'm caught up, now. My vote will most likely be going to Beefster, but 1: I want to wait for his answers, and
2: He's already got two votes on him; mine would be the third. (I've had some experiences with newbies quicklynching my suspect and gaining suspicion because we weren't ready to end the day, yet. So, with those bad experiences in mind, I want my answers before I vote.)

[Mastin]

Quick note: Hmm...I'm seeing a HEAVY link to Kayi and Neruz, in a LOT of their posts.

HoS: Kayi, Neruz

. Looking at my post above, they're agreeing with each other a lot, not to mention, supporting each other from attack, and--to top it all off--they're now voting together as well.
Current suspect order: Kayi/Neruz (almost enough for a vote), Beefster (individually, my largest suspect, however, I'm waiting for answers), Jay. (His defense is less than convincing.)

[Mastin]

*EBWOP (Edit By Way of Posting)
I hit submit when I meant to hit preview. Mujex should be up, there, too, below Jay.

[Kayi]

@Yenros - Ridiculously random and weird, yes. But how is placing a random vote late actually

scummy

? Another train of thought I can't grasp.


@Beef - I've said that I wanted to test the question. I now don't get why you said it was blatant alignment-fishing and now you're saying it's irrelevant. You first voted for me because of the alleged alignment-fishing and now you seem to be keeping your vote because the question is irrelevant. While you've also claimed that you don't like this questions. That one thing still stands where everything around it gets blurry to me.
Again, I said that there is a possibility that one's preferences and the reason behind them influence one's way of playing the game. If you guys have told me that this isn't true, because you've seen this somewhere else, I have no reason to not believe you. I've never claimed not believing you. It's not an hypothesis I've claimed to have proven. It's not something I claimed I'll stick with throughout the game - more like "let's wait and see." Nothing more. I gave many reasons to my question though. More than anything, I did want to get discussion going. Didn't I succeed on that?

I've read some of your posts on other games and they didn't do anything either way. This particular pattern of voting struck me as weird when some others didn't. By the pattern of voting, I mean the fact that you unvoted and voted again, and the reasoning behind these actions. I'm not sure of what I think about trying to back up things with Meta. Again, seems like an escape route that could perfectly work for a lot whether you're scum or not, but more likely to be used when evidence of being Town can't be found within the game.

On a very unrelated note.... lowercase i at the end of my username. Kay

i

.



@Mastin: Well, this type of reasoning I can understand. But it doesn't mean that it indicates the truth. According to your post, we've agreed with voting for Beef. I mean, his RVS vote way before my question, my joke suspicion, and way after that, my actual vote. You suspect Beef as well, for the same reasons I do. There's also the fact that we don't like the the RVS. You agree with that as well, and I don't think it has anything to do with the actual game. But that's it when it comes to agreeing. He's defended me, and only he can answer exactly why. Whether he believes in my innocence or just that none of my actions have been scummy to him, I can't tell. If he's scum and has his own reasons for defending me, I still can't tell. He hasn't been the only one to speak in my favor. And I don't recall any attacks on him I could have defended. I can only say that I'm town, and I have no clue or suspicion of Neruz's alignment. Nothing much I can say after this.

Btw, the forum I'm playing in is a non-mafia one. PostSecret Community, if you must know, under the same username. I'm not sure the Games section is open to non-registered users though.

[Beefster]

@Beef - I've said that I wanted to test the question. I now don't get why you said it was blatant alignment-fishing and now you're saying it's irrelevant. You first voted for me because of the alleged alignment-fishing and now you seem to be keeping your vote because the question is irrelevant. While you've also claimed that you don't like this questions. That one thing still stands where everything around it gets blurry to me.
Again, I said that there is a possibility that one's preferences and the reason behind them influence one's way of playing the game. If you guys have told me that this isn't true, because you've seen this somewhere else, I have no reason to not believe you. I've never claimed not believing you. It's not an hypothesis I've claimed to have proven. It's not something I claimed I'll stick with throughout the game - more like "let's wait and see." Nothing more. I gave many reasons to my question though.

It's early in the game. I really don't see why my voting patterns (at this point) are such a big deal. Typically at the start of the game, votes mean nothing. As the game goes on though, they start to become more meaningful. So if a 0 is a random vote and a 10 is a cop-sure vote, where I'm at is about a 1.

More than anything, I did want to get discussion going. Didn't I succeed on that?

Yes, indirectly.

I've read some of your posts on other games and they didn't do anything either way. This particular pattern of voting struck me as weird when some others didn't. By the pattern of voting, I mean the fact that you unvoted and voted again, and the reasoning behind these actions. I'm not sure of what I think about trying to back up things with Meta. Again, seems like an escape route that could perfectly work for a lot whether you're scum or not, but more likely to be used when evidence of being Town can't be found within the game.

Understandably, the unvote/vote in one post is scummy. I'm not going to argue with that. It was bad play on my part and I should be better than that, especially as an IC.

On a very unrelated note.... lowercase i at the end of my username. Kay

i

.

Ah sorry. Linux smooths out fonts, so when text is bold, i's and l's are hard to distinguish.



@Mastin: Well, this type of reasoning I can understand. But it doesn't mean that it indicates the truth. According to your post, we've agreed with voting for Beef. I mean, his RVS vote way before my question, my joke suspicion, and way after that, my actual vote. You suspect Beef as well, for the same reasons I do. There's also the fact that we don't like the the RVS. You agree with that as well, and I don't think it has anything to do with the actual game. But that's it when it comes to agreeing. He's defended me, and only he can answer exactly why. Whether he believes in my innocence or just that none of my actions have been scummy to him, I can't tell. If he's scum and has his own reasons for defending me, I still can't tell. He hasn't been the only one to speak in my favor. And I don't recall any attacks on him I could have defended. I can only say that I'm town, and I have no clue or suspicion of Neruz's alignment. Nothing much I can say after this.

Btw, the forum I'm playing in is a non-mafia one. PostSecret Community, if you must know, under the same username. I'm not sure the Games section is open to non-registered users though.[/quote]