Newbie 1379 (Game Over)

[Future]

Hey y'all. Sorry, was out all day yesterday.

VOTE: Saki - have some self-confidence!

[Future]

Hi Future. Cool avatar.

Some questions to get started, perhaps?

1. Have you ever played an offsite game before?
2. What are your first impressions of the site?
3. What's your first language?
4. Are you scum? *cough i'mageniusiknow cough*

1. Not in real life.
2. Technically I've known about this site for a while; had a good friend show me some time ago. But so far it seems pretty nice.
3. English
4. Nope.

Goodmorning, what do you mean? I wasn't being very serious with that vote.

[Future]

There is nothing to explain. I voted Saki as part of RVS. Insecurity, as either town or scum, isn't a good thing to have in this game.

goodmorning is trying way too hard, if you ask me. I appreciate the effort and don't think it's necessarily scummy (although it leans a little bit on that side, if you ask me) but your questions are flimsy at best and distracting at worst. All you're doing is aggressively grasping at straws.

That being said, I still think my vote is placed in an okay place. Saki responded to the random questions only, which don't add a whole lot of information, and then acknowledged that action had happened without responding to it. That's suspicious.

[Future]

Saki also voted for Slyther. Was that based on the final question, Saki?

[Future]

I'd like to point out that "aggressively grasping at straws" is a pretty decent way of making the game happen.

Fair enough.

And Saki, I'm referring to the action between goodmorning and myself.

[Future]

Getting weird vibes from goodmorning and Doctor Pepper, officially. Maybe this is goodmorning's style, but I've never played a game with him (obviously)...while being aggressive early does get the game started, that's also not a towntell. Hiding behind aggressive questioning is a good way to avoid questioning yourself, but when the questions are flimsy it comes off feeling like phony hunting.

Gotta hear more from Saki before I change my vote, although I'm leaning slightly towards frightened, overwhelmed early-game town. Not bad to have two votes on him to solidify that read, though.

Saki, who is currently the scummiest person in the game?

[Future]

Oy, Saki is town. Pretty blatantly, too. Honestly, I can't see scum saying in his first game that someone is scummy because they voted for him. He's trying.

Now...

VOTE: Doctor Pepper

For two things:

1. The attack on Saki, who is a VERY easy target. It's easy to jump on and say "wow Saki OMGUSed that's scummy go wagon go" which is essentially what DP did.

2. The "town read" on Diplomat after the unvote. Easy way to "read" someone as an alignment when you already know the alignment of every player in the game.

Goodmorning, I would really like you to reconsider your town read on DP. I now think you're town and you've stepped up as somewhat of a leader (your IC status may contribute to that). The pressure here is good pressure and you should be able to see that.

Antagon gets scumpoints from me too for a lot of the same reasons. Maybe more, in fact, seeing as he didn't vote but is still pushing the wagon. Some connection there for sure.

[Future]

Actually, fuck it.

UNVOTE: DoctorPepper
VOTE: Antagon

You guys will probably buy Antagon-scum more than DP-scum at this point, I think. Pushing the wagon without being on it is a fucking great way to distance yourself from an easy town-lynch while blending in.

[Future]

Antagon, come on.

Really? If I really wanted to push the Saki lynch, wouldn't the best course of action be to, you know, vote Saki? Do you really think that a bandwagon that's L-1 on Page 4 is really the optimal play?

Obviously not. If Saki got lynched, you'd be the guy that put that townie at L-1. You'd have pressure on you come D2. Plus, an L-1 wagon on page 4 is obviously not ideal, which you know as town and scum. So, you push the wagon verbally but not with your actions. Do you see what I mean?

I reread your Saki vote post, DP, and you're right. I did misrep you a little - your reasons weren't just for the OMGUS. The point still stands, though; Saki's scumread post was way more of a "I'm new and trying to figure out what to do here" than a "I'm scum trying to provide weak reasoning for other people being scum" post, and you hopped all over that. It's an easy lynch to push, but one that comes off suspicious to me.

Also, you're misrepping me right back with the second point you made. I didn't vote you because you had a town read. I voted you because you were quick to give a town read on Diplomat for unvoting. Context matters.

[Future]

I'm not, Slyther. I'm saying Saki is town, and Ant (as scum) would know that. Therefore, he would push the easy-lynch wagon without voting for it directly, securing him both a place as someone who "scumhunted" and someone who was off the Saki wagon if you're just looking at vote counts. That's a pretty good way to look town, if you ask me.

[Future]

Goodmorning, you're misunderstanding me. I'm acknowledging that creating an L-1 wagon on page 4 is clearly scummy, and Antagon obviously knows that. Therefore, he wouldn't do it himself, but he would be okay pushing the wagon until somebody

else

does it.

The DP / Diplomat thing is more gut than anything else, which is basically why I dropped it for the time being. Let's talk about Antagon.

[Future]

Antagon, you're ignoring me...

[Future]

But Saki was pretty blatantly newbtown. That's the point - the scum read itself was the scummy thing to have.

[Future]

Oh, I thought you were addressing Antagon. I didn't think Saki was scum and I've never said that. The RVS vote was Random.

[Future]

If you had to pick one, gun to your head, who would it be?

[Future]

Everyone who isn't voting should be voting.

[Future]

Slyther, PLEASE vote for someone.

That goes for everyone not voting. If you're not voting, you're not taking a stance, and that's just plain unhelpful. Even if that stance is unpopular it moves everyone towards the ultimate goal here.

[Future]

Posting from my phone, will flesh this out in a bit, but DoctorPepper's being awfully scummy.

[Future]

Uhm Future, while voting is taking a stance, you can take a stance without voting first, through uhm idk, actually questioning people. You've put yourself into a leadership position here, clamoring for everyone to vote and give reads, as if to look town. Its like youre looking too hard to be town

Theres little substance in this game honestly

DoctorPepper, you've first called me scummy for demanding votes, saying that questioning is necessary and that all I'm doing is trying to look town. Next, you complain about lack of substance.

Maybe it's because of the condescending tone of the first post and I'm just letting my emotions cloud my judgment here, but this comes off as scummy to me. I don't know why trying to be a leader and calling for firm stances is a problem in a game in which you've admitted there's not much to go off of. It's antitown at best, and trying to use it as a scumtell on me is just plain wrong.

The reason why we don't have much substance is because people aren't taking stances. Diplomat, looking right at you. You haven't taken a stance on anything at all, and yet you want more "discussion." Not trying to be a dick here, but either do it yourself or don't complain when other people try. This is entirely personally biased, but in my opinion you don't have a stance in this game until you vote and not doing that is detrimental to the town's ultimate goal. Goodmorning, as an IC you should have something to say on this one besides it being "blatant towncred fishing," which I am happy to let people call it as long as the message gets through.

I have no problem with Antagon's vote. The manilai slot obviously needs pressure.

UNVOTE: Antagon
VOTE: DoctorPepper

[Future]

Also, Slyther, thank you.

And LyLo is a different beast, but Antagon, you're right about not voting quickly there. However, this isn't LyLo.

[Future]

Voting.

[Future]

Neither. Serious, not impatient.

This might be more of an MD-type post, but voting is not simply the means to an end. Mastin's Guide to Playing Well is a good read here. Voting is what drives the game. Voting is what you talk about. It's very hard to have discussion, especially in the early game, without voting. Voting doesn't imply impatience or a desire to finish the day early. Voting implies having some goddamn opinions.

[Future]

Because people like to talk about how much they like talking, but it rarely leads to much until someone actually votes. It's idealistic but not very pragmatic. Obviously I'm generalizing - there are occasions in which you shouldn't always vote. D1 of a Newbie Game is not one of them.

I have no idea what DiplomatDC thinks about this game. The only reason I know you think I'm scum is because I asked you and you voted for me. Except for the lurkers, the only reason why I know what the other players are thinking is because they've voted.

It's also much easier to hide behind generalities and half-baked opinions without voting. When you vote you're putting your foot down, and that foot can be analyzed later in the game. It's much easier to sort through actions (voting) than pages and pages of text.

[Future]

This talk of voting is getting us away from the point, though.

DoctorPepper, do you still think Saki is scum?

[Future]

I disagree wholeheartedly with your first statement, but whatever. Best saved for postgame.

[Future]

I'm voting DP now.

[Future]

Not much.

1. I'd rather lynch my number 2 scum-candidate than work really hard D1 to convince the town to lynch candidate number 1.
2. I'm pursuing lynching scum, yeah. That's the point. I never said I wanted the lynch at that moment.

[Future]

Not much.

1. I'd rather lynch my number 2 scum-candidate than work really hard D1 to convince the town to lynch candidate number 1.
2.

a.

I'm pursuing lynching scum, yeah. That's the point.

b.

I never said I wanted the lynch at that moment.

1. Why wouldn't you
2a. Eh, not exactly what I meant. I meant that this early in the game, you don't necessarily have to find today's lynch. Your goal is to find and point out those who are scummy, which you avoided doing.
2b. You didn't literally say it, but we can infer that that's what you were thinking by your word-choice and actions.

1. Just cause.
2a. Disagree.
2b. Wrong.

[Future]

I realize I'm being difficult. This is because I'm town.

What do you think of Doctor Pepper, Edosurist?

[Future]

Oh shush, Slyther.

1. Playstyle preference.
2a. I don't see how I avoided pointing out scummy people.
2b. Just plain wrong.

[Future]

The "not saying you're town" part is also stupid. Slyther, this is especially silly coming from you, who asked an "Are you scum?" question in RQS.

[Future]

Agreed to the misrep point. That was a bad move.

But what do you call this:

Its like youre looking too hard to be town

I call that calling someone scummy.

[Future]

Also, sorry Slyther. I was probably too much of a dick to you. Really, my bad.

[Future]

I also didn't say that changing reads was scummy, Edosurist. Can you point that out specifically to me?

[Future]

You're not getting attacked, Saki. Who do you think is scum?

Also, nobody is claiming cop. It's all about who's the most vocal and protown in the game. The town will naturally develop a leader; that's how these things work.

[Future]

I am not falling for 'hey I want your opinion' again.

Seriously, Saki?

Science, your points against me seem to be mostly playstyle preference. Why is not wanting to lynch your number one scum candidate (who I'm now voting for, by the way) scummy? What's the scum motivation behind it? I would be happy lynching either Antagon or DP right now. Whoever the town wants is fine with me. I'm not the type of player to be so confident as to insist on my correctness.

[Future]

Actually, maybe not Antagon any more. I'd be fine lynching Diplomat though.

[Future]

Again, that's playstyle. What is the scum motivation behind it besides the "living the next day" thing (which is silly IMO)?

[Future]

Like I said, my reads on DP were mostly gut at that time. I had no case. Just thought he was scum.

[Future]

Hence the "I think you guys'll buy Antagon-scum." I had actual things I could point to. The town read on Diplomat wasn't much to go off of when looking at DP.

[Future]

I am perfectly happy being lynched if it means that Doctor Pepper will be lynched tomorrow (which I'm guessing it will once I flip town).

[Future]

Slyther, I like you too, for what it's worth.

My lynch will help this town a lot, and I'm willing to sacrifice myself for it. Not gonna self-hammer, but seriously, I'm very comfortable with my lynch. I'm a VT.

Sorry, but no. Town is never willing to get lynched. Doing that is tantamount to lynching confirmed town (after all, you are confirmed town to yourself).
As town, self-hammering or having a defeatist attitude is the worst thing you could do.
As scum, willing to be lynched can only be justified to deny town information.
You are scum.

This is hilarious, by the way.

[Future]

I'm not being defeatist. I'm saying that once I'm lynched, the smart players in this game (notscience, Slyther, Edosurist - I think you guys are all town and relatively intelligent; the torch is yours to carry) should be able to come to some good conclusions.

Slyther - I would look at goodmorning again. Diplomat, too.

2/4 of { goodmorning, Diplomat, Antagon, DP } are scum. Mark my words on that one.

Also, notscience, I'm at L-1.

[Future]

My reads are there, basically.

[Future]

DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO

[Future]

Nah, but seriously, I don't think there are hard and fast rules to this whole mafia thing. Like I said, I'm down to get lynched ASAP if it means that we'll move forward with this whole thing. As far as I can tell, as long as I'm here I'm a distraction to the players looking for scum, considering as I've done some things that some of you find suspicious (and it can't all be people who are scum - there's just too many of you!). That's not something I want to be. As long as I'm here, someone will be able to make a somewhat convincing case (to this town, at least) regarding my scumminess, and that's just gonna get in the way, considering I'm town and all.

[Future]

I was kidding - check the post above. You ninja'd me.

[Future]

Then root 'em out. I'm not scum, though.

What do you think of my 4 possible scum?

[Future]

I'm also not a policy lynch. If people are voting for me out of policy, stop. Only vote for me if you think I'm actually scum.

[Future]

Let's lynch DP, then. If we both think he's scum then I'm either bussing or legitimately scumhunting. Either way we get rid of someone who we think is scum. Everybody wins.

[Future]

Oh shit science, I totally thought you were voting me. My bad.

Also, DP, please refer to the "I was kidding." I'm not insisting that if I get lynched today you'll have to be next, but once I flip town it'll probably end up being you based on you being scum and all.

I'm 100% serious regarding me being okay with my own lynch; if you want to call that policy it's what you want, but I see it more as a strategic move. I wouldn't call it policy because I don't think anybody ever is okay with their own policy lynch and I don't think I'm actually being anti-town by demanding it (/in before the "you know you're town so saying you're okay with lynching town is anti-town" - I've laid out my defense to this elsewhere).

Also Saki, you're the newbiest player
But seriously though, please have some confidence. This is just good life advice, anyways. Not a bad post.

[Future]

Saki - chainsaw is when one scumbuddy defends another, but it's ridiculous to throw the term out there when no one has flipped.

Anyways, Antagon got mighty defensive there if you ask me. The lady doth protest too much...

[Future]

Not much to say, GM.

I'm also not thrilled with DP's ISOs. Seems like a way to save face.

[Future]

GM - I'm a lover, not a fighter.

DP still needs to be lynched, though. Posting walls of ISOs is not a town-tell for a couple reasons:

1. It's ridiculously easy for anyone to do, town or scum.
2. It implies that you haven't been scumhunting throughout the game, only that you decided to do something "big" or "grandiose" when someone called you out on it. That's not a scumtell - town can lurk too and use ISOs to catch up, etc. - but nobody should be giving DP town cred for his recent behavior.

Does he still think I'm scum?

[Future]

GM - I'm a lover, not a fighter.

DP still needs to be lynched, though. Posting walls of ISOs is not a town-tell for a couple reasons:

1. It's ridiculously easy for anyone to do, town or scum.
2. It implies that you haven't been scumhunting throughout the game, only that you decided to do something "big" or "grandiose" when someone called you out on it. That's not a scumtell - town can lurk too and use ISOs to catch up, etc. - but nobody should be giving DP town cred for his recent behavior.

Does he still think I'm scum?

[Future]

DP is scum, people think I'm scum, don't know the other wagon you're talking about. Saki?

[Future]

Edo, you wanting a Future lynch and then a DP lynch is strange. Even if you think I'm scum, we're pretty clearly not the same alignment.

Hey, you wanted a tldr. I'm on my phone.

[Future]

Look y'all, the lynch is coming down to me or DP today. Take a stance.

[Future]

Bungle, DP is scum.

[Future]

Don't do that. Discussion over?

[Future]

Honestly, we just need a lynch at this point. Preferably DoctorPepper's. I don't see who else will be getting the noose besides myself at this point.

[Future]

Then again, I'm wholeheartedly a proponent of the "clamoring for more discussion is mostly bullshit" view.

I think asking for discussion is equivalent to asking for passionate sex. If it's forced, you're going to be able to tell it's forced (i.e. that self-vote). It's something that happens naturally, and should be propelled by real events instead of meaningless ones.

Therefore, we need a lynch ASAP.

[Future]

notscience, what more needs to be done to evaluate lynches, as you say?

[Future]

notscience, what more needs to be done to evaluate lynches, as you say?

I like having time to make sure we don't screw up. The longer the game goes, the more likely a scum slips. Which can lead to reevaluation of the current lynch.

Not an answer - I wanted something concrete.

PS, while I appreciate bungle's defense of me, it's also definitely not a town tell. If I get lynched it's something to look at D2.

[Future]

GM, don't be silly. We only have two days and while I'm still kind of undecided on notscience's scumminess he's not going to be lynched today. Please, please, please either vote for DP or hammer me.

That goes for all of you, by the way. We have two days. The lynch is going to be me or DoctorPepper. Pick one.

[Future]

By all of you, I really just meant GM, Saki, and notscience.

[Future]

I'm not willing to lynch bungle at the moment. Tomorrow is another day, though.

[Future]

DP, say something please. Claim would be great.

I agree with bungle on the RVS thing, although I think he's overplaying the "people think you must be mafia if you don't do RVS." I don't think too many people see it as a real way to scumhunt, it's just a way to get things going.

I don't think Saki's hammer was scummy, but it wasn't all that smart. Should have waited until DP showed up, at least.

My potential scum set of { DP, GM, Antagon, Bungle } is still pretty much the same. Edosurist might be sneaking in there.

[Future]

I am wholly in favor of a massclaim. You already know my role. Edosurist, while you're here, claim now.

PS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCQ7VLoY7bQ

[Future]

Considering how quickly the DP lynch happened, I would be shocked if the last scum was on that wagon. (although this statement could very well turn out to bite me in the ass - lookin' at you goodmorning).

Meaning that it's down to fferyllt, Edosurist, or Antagon.

Quick assessment, Slyther is town and its quite obvious.

I REALLY DON'T THINK THAT THE SLYTHER SLOT IS SCUM, BUNGLE.

Meaning that it's down to Edosurist or Antagon.

Interestingly enough, as far as I can tell, DP never ISOd Antagon. Which makes me think that Edo (hope that pisses you off) is his buddy. His Edo ISO was basically "this guy doesn't post much, can't read him," which is a great "read" to have on a scumbuddy.

VOTE: Edosurist

Even if I'm wrong, this game is in the fuckin bag.

[Future]

Antagon, you can also claim with your next post.

[Future]

Seriously, seriously doubt the scum no killed.

[Future]

Antagon, I'd also like to hear more from you.

[Future]

I mean, I don't want to just twiddle my thumbs while we wait for edo to come back. Have everyone else claim and then we can figure out what Edo is by PoE.

[Future]

FUCK I WANT A FLAWLESS VICTORY TOO WHICH ONE IS IT?

UNVOTE: whoever the fuck i was voting

[Future]

Can you guys just tell us which one of you are scum so we don't have to sit through the rest of this game?

[Future]

Antagon doesn't seem to be trying very hard.

Makes me really want to lynch him

[Future]

VOTE: Antagon

[Future]

I want the flawless victory but I also want to get this over with.

[Future]

Let's just lynch ant

[Future]

Saki, it's either Antagon or Edosurist. Maybe Slyther. Maybe GM is being all fakeclaimy, but doubt that's the case.

[Future]

Damn, even fooled me.

I really can't tell which one is scum here, so...idk. Someone else make this call.

[Future]

Everyone is town except either Antagon or Edosurist. There was no NK last night because notscience (you) got shot at (if his/your BP claim is to be believed, which I think it is - nobody else has CC'd except Edosurist potentially but that would just be silly).

[Future]

nope

[Future]

well there's not

[Future]

Antagon, are you scum?

[Future]

Antagon, are you scum?