Newbie 1676 | Hungarian Nóták | Endgame

[hiplop]

Hey everyone, I'm your

IC

for this game. It stands for "Inexperience Challenged", a joke-of-sorts meaning that I have played a lot of this game. There are also SE's in this game, meaning "semi-experienced". I am more-or-less a teacher, to help you guys get used to Mafia Scum, and I will be trying my very best to follow this guide. I am not here to play the game for you, merely to help you adapt to Mafia Scum, or mafia in general, really. I

am

still playing to win, but I can answer any questions you guys might have. This can be regarding anything whether it be mafia theory or things specific to this site! I have fun playing mafia, and I hope you guys will too; at the end of the day its a game, and we're here to have fun.

I thought I'd take the time to mention some of the sites features. On the bottom right below the SUBMIT button, there is a drop-down menu with the heading of "Display Posts by User:___" This is used to ISOLATE (or ISO for short) another player, and see only their posts. It's pretty helpful later on in the game, as it lets you see all of their posts in a nice little list. I quite like it, and great for Post by Post analysis.

In the bottom right corner, just above the Quick-Jump menu, there's an Activity Over-view link, it just shows how many times each player has posted; good for finding lurkers/seeing who is posting lots, and how long it has been since they last checked in.

If you don't already, I recommend getting an Avatar ASAP. It is really helpful to the whole community/town to be able to differentiate easily posts between players

We have a site wiki, that you can easily find by either going to the top right of the page, or simply going to mafiascum.net homepage, its a tool to be used, but some parts are outdated and fairly archaic. You can learn mafia theory pretty well from the wiki, but the only way to really learn how to play is by actively partaking in discussions, and just playing for yourself, honestly.

Some wiki's I recommend reading are: A Beginner's Guide to Being Awesome At Mafia, and Commonly Used Abbreviations. The first is an incredibly good guide especially for newbies, and experienced players alike! It really explains the concept of mafia well, and I REALLY recommend you guys check it out, and the second is just to help you understand everything that is being said. Often us scummers seem to be speaking in a different language, this'll help you understand the lingo! If I say something you don't understand, feel free to ask for clarification.

Here at Mafiascum, we usually start Day One with a RVS (Random Vote Stage). It helps kick-off discussion, and you get to see how certain players handle pressure. It's a fun little time where you can joke around; it doesn't last too long, as usually someone finds SOMETHING to venture on with. It is a strong starting point, and as you get more experienced can become increasingly telling. Mafia is a super fun, nuanced game that has a virtually endless amount of variables, which is what helps make it so fresh every time.

So if you guys have any questions; feel free to ask, I won't bite,

I promise

I thought it would be nice to get to know you guys; afterall we will be residing in the same town for a few days
1) Have anyone of you played any off-site games?
2)How about on-site games? If so; How Many?
3) How would you describe yourself as an individual?
4) What do you think you will be remembered for this game?
5) Why are you not scum? (:P)
6) Favourite pizza topping?
7) Favourite Movie?
8) Favourite Song/band/music genre?

VOTE: witch hunter agent 47 is a an assassin which is pretty close to a hungarian mafia member IMO

[hiplop]

MY ANSWERS

1) Have anyone of you played any off-site games?

Yes! before coming here I had like 100 games on another side back in 2011. Making the transition here was hard, but SO worth it!

2)How about on-site games? If so; How Many?

...too many to count. Way too many? if that is an acceptable answer hehe

3) How would you describe yourself as an individual?

Eccentric, dorky, a big nerd and somewhat creative? I have my moments

4) What do you think you will be remembered for this game?

Hopefully being the worlds best IC

5) Why are you not scum? (:P) I'm just too darn lovable
6) Favourite pizza topping?

Tomatoes/Italian Sausage combo mmmm

7) Favourite Movie?

Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (My job = filmmaker so I'm a tad snobby~)

8) Favourite Song/band/music genre? I'm really liking Cage The Elephant right now! Specifically "Cigarette Daydreams" which is incredibly beautiful

[hiplop]

VOTE: belisarius
Your lack of vote is disturbing. You dislike RQS, yet do nothing to advance it any further?

Offtopic but cool: There is a thread in GD all about the INTP personality type. Despite being one of the least common, an overwhelming group of scummers are INTP! (Me included) I suppose this sort of intricate, analytical game attracts us INTP!

Canada is the best so I mean I support the music love. LIGHTS is a goddess ^_^

[hiplop]

Mostly offtopic, except for the last question:

@

Hiplop

: I'll check it later, thanks for pointing it. Kinda odd this game gathers so many of what's supposed to be a rare type (~3%).

@ All Canadians: Your musical discussions went completely over my head, so: any good metal Canadian bands?

@All experienced players: What's your suggested method of keeping track of what's going on? Do you take notes, and how?

I tend to take notes in a google spreadsheet. I put in any claims/hints/reads the people have been strong on, and make a new one for each day. Then by endgame I have an assortment of data that can help pinpoint lies/strange changes in position

The best way to get people to crack is with pressure, so I do recommend you vote the people you find scummy. Votes can be changed whenever you want, might as well make scum squirm with pressure.

Day 1 usually starts with random vote stage where a bunch of votes/crazy stuff happens as you try to push for scummy behavior via the power of pressure.

Example: Belisarius' strange answer to my scum question + lack of participation in RVS. That combo to me coming from an SE wreaks of scum.

[hiplop]

@ Belisarius: Do you actually scumread Bluebird, or is your vote still random?

Random. I have one townread and no scumreads so far. That still helps. PoE is potent.

If anyone is unsure of who to vote; consider the expierenced player ignoring common play/ my posts

[hiplop]

VOTE: Kim We'll see where this goes

[hiplop]

ok .. I have to claim..... MY GF is Canadian...... I love her......


there are too many Canadians playing MS FFS....

We're taking over.

I'm aware Belsarius voted now, I just thought he'd do more except complain about RQS. FWIW (for what its worth), initially I did miss the vote, oops. I got all excited typing my IC-post, I forgot there was game before that. Once I noticed I tried to do what I could to get something going to spur activity. When he started to do more, I moved my vote~

Belisarius and hiplop, do you think Kim was trying to buddy?

Basically, yeah. I also liked Belisarius' reaction to me, and therefore had a small degree of trust.

@

Kim

: We couldn't disagree more in our conclusions. Hiplop's my strongest townread so far. Sure, that's not very strong, more like 60%, but it's still something. So I'm wary of posts like:

I think that hiplop's actions are worthy of pressure.

So, either hiplop's town, and at most guilty of not noticing one post, or he's terrible scum.

Later, the same process is at play. Belisarius changes his vote to you and hiplop does the same at once.
Town-hiplop reason: finally noticed Belisarius was actually taking part in RVS. Therefore, no more reason to suspect him for the moment. And he's also applying pressure on someone. Why not help him and get a read on this Kim guy?
Scum-hiplop reason: uh oh, my case on Belisarius just went offrails. What if he suspects me? I know, I'll sheep his vote and cunningly move attention away from me. <evil laugh>

Again, either hiplop's town or stupid. And I'd rather bet our IC is not stupid.

WitchHunter seems town, tbh. Kim's point is the best one raised thus far, and witch was able to think from my POV quite well; in a way that would in no way benefit scum. For the most part this post makes me think he is town (and quite flattering *bats eyelashes*), but that first line I have bolded is a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle strange. Town question eachother all the time, I don't think Kim's push on me seems particularly scummy.

Before you play the WIFOM card, that kind of shit is really hard to fake as scum, can backfire very easily, and the only potential gain for scum-hiplop would be for someone to draw the same reasoning I just did. It is not reasonable to assume that scum is prescient enough to have predicted this sort of reaction, except possibly with a player they know really, really well. Given that I've been away from Mafia since the summer, I doubt even my former scumbuddies and hydra partners could forecast my thought processes so accurately.

another defense would be that actions like that are especially regarded as scummy by new players. The biggest thing new players do wrong is they forget that doing something wrong doesn't necessarily mean scum motivation. Me being a goofball and not seeing a vote is

bad

but it more comes from the fact that I am a goofball than I'm trying to assassinate y'all.

(Sidenote, I've been wrestling with how to increase activity in the game, and figured doing a bombastic push would maybe help that. It sorta worked, woo!~) Now lets get these new-newbies in here so we actually have 9 players

I think that hiplop's actions are worthy of pressure. I'm still not sure how loose/tight I should be with my vote early in day stages -- I've gotten criticism for not voting in a couple of my earlier games. Chances are that hiplop isn't scum, but I could really say the same for literally everyone at this point.

Aye, that is a interesting problem that even I struggle with. I hold my vote early game to be pretty weak, poking and prodding at things in an attempt to see varying reactions. The trick is finding balance and it does take quite a long time to figure out! (I've been playing 7 years, and still am not ideal in that regard!)

Something like this is probably what happened, but people need to be called out on changing their vote without comment. I think that not doing so makes the game too easy for scum.

Here is where I will UNVOTE: . I'm satisfied with this response. You're absolutely right.

@ hiplop, Thanks, I'll also have to check the INTP thread out

I just went looking for it and noticed it was pretty hard to find, if anyone is still interested I found it quite interesting! Here it is

Really sort of an awkward spot as we're essentially missing 1/3 of the game right now (smudge, two replacements).

None, outside of a little bit in real life I'm a complete mafia noobie so any help or advice is welcome and probably needed. I'm also new to forum type sites for the most part so any advice on how to navigate/use this site would also be great. Thanks!

I recommend you look at those guides I posted on the first page! (Little bit boring, super helpful!) I know some people find it helpful to use the "view your posts" option in the top left portion of the page (I don't), as it helps them keep track of all their games in one nice little spot. I personally think Mafsepia is much cooler than Mafblack as a theme for the site, and you can change that by going User Control Panel -> Board Preferences -> My Board Style. In fact, there are lots of interesting options in there such as Site Chat (a chatroom) etc. This is an awesome site and you guys/gals should totally explore the neat features it has. For the snazzy quotes like the ones here, if you highlight a portion of a post and then press "quote" it will automatically quote just that section, which is pretty neat. If you have any other questions, ask~

However, I am going to VOTE: mrcurlynoodles as I'm interested in your thoughts on the circumstances in this particular game. What are you feeling, currently?

[hiplop]

However, I am going to VOTE: mrcurlynoodles as I'm interested in your thoughts on the circumstances in this particular game. What are you feeling, currently?

Thanks for the advice about the quote thing this is pretty cool. And I actually did read/partially skim the guide and abbreviation page you posted and they were super helpful! The abbreviation page is probably the only way I'm still following along

Sorry for not posting that much I've been kind of busy but mostly I just haven't really known what to say. I think the whole discussion between Kim and Witch_Hunter seems like two people looking a little too much into things/reacting very strongly to each other but Kim's defensiveness is a little sketchy, though not sketchy enough for me to think he's scum. Also (thanks to the guide you posted) I realize that if he is town he should probably be just as defensive and his logic, for the most part, seemed fairly sound. Witch_Hunter's logic also seemed fairly rational, though perhaps a tad overzealous, and I found myself more on his side in terms of whether or not what you've done so far has been scummy (which your most recent post also helped with). Honestly even in real life I find it hard to judge anyone so early in the game (which I guess is the point of this RVS) but thanks to the discussion so far I feel as if you, Witch_Hunter and Kim are the most towny, though not enough for me to think any of you are confirmed town.

Out of the people who are actually talking so far the person that feels the scummiest is Belisarius and that's still only like 2% scum. At first I voted him as a joke because he said he was always scum, even when he was town (I'm not sure how to quote more things after having already quoted something without quoting the whole post), but his disregard of you voting him (despite it being on faulty grounds) and his quick, mostly unexplained vote change to Kim seemed a little out of place to me. Kim's logic about unexplained vote changes needing to be called out makes sense to me and applies to Belisarius as much as it did to you. So my vote stays with him for now.

Sorry for this wall of text I'm sure once I start posting more/get used to this format and how to quote things my posts will either be shorter or snazzier. But those are my thoughts for now.

This is a good, well thought out post. I still have some minor reservations on this slot overall, in particular the awkward read on Belisarius. I'm unsure if this is you trying to tip-toe on a potential partner or just extremely honest town player? Keeping my eye on you, but for now I will UNVOTE: because I don't think you're the top contender for scum.

No. I spoke of simple logic. Especially in a newbie game, where bad reasoning is more readily associated with dishonesty than simple human fallibility, using bad logic on purpose is a fool's game. While I'm less won't than Witch_Hunter to discount the possibility of a fool for on IC on a Shadeed's Law basis, Occam's Razor still points to an unintentional gaffe, and it still stands as unlikely in the extreme that even a Jesus-caliber scum player could have predicted that I or anyone would draw the conclusion that hiplop's vote on me was a township.

Hey now I'm a good guy! I promise no more goofy gaffes

why do you think kim is scum? If you don't think they are scum, why are you pressuring them? It just contradicts to what you said earlier.

I don't think this is true. Right now, the town is a uninformed majority desperately trying to scratch away the mist and understand the world around them. IMO the best way to do that is to vote various places to garner a reaction. I liked Kim's reaction, and thus moved on to what was at the time a better candidate. This is also no longer the case. Noodles provided a good analysis of his situation and current reads on the game.

For now, VOTE: Kim, while I think bluebird is scummier, I feel this is a more important lynch to discuss. Not saying you shouldn't discuss the bluebird lynch though.

I like you. I buy your reasoning for bluebird, I really do. This vote is NOT good. In fact, VOTE: some random mafia player. This to me reads as a bus (read: throwing his partner under the bus). A new wagon of sorts forms on bluebird, you agree, go on with the momentum...and vote someone completely different? That does NOT read natural to me in the slightest. This seems like you're scared to join the blooming bluebird wagon too early in case it has ramifications on the rest of your game. This sort of mindset is commonly indicative of scum.

[hiplop]

Reads right now for those viewers at home
Town
Witch
Kim
Noodles
AzoriiiousSenate

Null
Smudge
Belisarius
(Cmon SE's, get more active )

Scum
Bluebird
Some Random Mafia Player - Seriously, this is not a town mindset

[hiplop]

Clarification on me: I do my reads categorically but also ranked in each category. Witch being top town read, Smudge being townier than belisarius etc etc

[hiplop]

Reads right now for those viewers at home
Town
Witch
Kim
Noodles
AzoriiiousSenate

Null
Smudge
Belisarius
(Cmon SE's, get more active )

Scum
Bluebird
Some Random Mafia Player - Seriously, this is not a town mindset

my word the read lists are appearing early this season... why?

Playing as IC I try to be as transparent/clear as possible. Perhaps to a mild detriment to my game, but I want everyone to understand where my head is at.

Thoughts on SRMP?

[hiplop]

Rip David Bowie

[hiplop]

I am not scared to join the bluebird wagon, especially since no discussion actually happened on kim. The point of me doing it is now useless so UNVOTE: Kim VOTE: Bluebird and that one-liner that I made was because I dident see this. I think this justifies your read on me.

Ou. This is no good. I would expect you to continue whatever it is you were doing, not back down under pressure. This feels awkward and forced.

I agree with his logic here. Reads lists at this point in the game are pointless and may look proactive, but in reality they don't do much for us. It might actually benefit scum to a certain extent.

Depends how loyal one is to them. It is good for people to share their view on the game in order to be able to figure out contradictions and whatnot later on. Perhaps this is a bit early, but it really is a debatable point and not overly alignment indicative. His weird pushes on the other hand are absolutely scummy.

Notice the restraint he puts on the bluebird wagon, says he wants to join but doesn't, joins and then immediately discusses the chance of bluebird not showing up and giving him the benefit of the doubt. It just seems like an awkward attempt to keep bluebird alive. (I mean, of course give the replacement a shot, just his reaction to it is off)

So people voting for bluebird: want to tell more of why you think they're scum? Or is it just those opening posts and trying to put pressure to get a response out of her? It is pretty weird that she hasn't really posted since.

Tragically a part of why I'm here is to make you guys excited about mafia! We want to keep y'all around and get you to play in other games! Sometimes that isn't the case, unfortunately and you leave us

Side note: I'm aware this post sounds very defensive of Bluebird, but I'm honestly just genuinely curious about why some people seem so sure she's scum. I get the pressure thing. But beyond that I'm wondering what people's thought processes are.

re: defending bluebird, I think this is a GOOD, townie example of it. This post as a whole. Some Random's is the exact opposite where he defends the slot without actually saying why. He is playing like he knows more than the rest of us (his readslist, his ability to dismiss bluebird wagon, etc). He is playing like he is better informed than us, ala scum.

I kind of agree with what you're saying on the subject of read lists, though i understand how it could help scum. Also hiplop's realist did get called out and he justified it, saying he likes to give new players his thoughts to help them with the game. Personally I find them helpful, as a new player, just to see more of how people work through the logic in this game and get a feel for what people are thinking, however I totally understand how read lists could potentially help scum and, if you were scum, you could be doing it to encourage more people to do it (as opposed to just sending your scum partner your reads, which you mentioned earlier).

FWIW, it completely depends on the person/situation. Reads lists/sharing info is one of the best powers town has, but at the same time disclosing too much or too early can be a detriment. Honestly, there is no yes or no answer on this issue. I personally lean on the "read lists = good" side of things, but I'm sure you'll find others who think contrarily. Basically, it can cause people to play lazily and scum to nest comfortably inside a townread. I don't think that is particularly common, but it really is up for debate!

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that could be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are definitely useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

Yep! That is basically my stance on it too. Again, there is merit to keeping some cards close to your chest (AND THE ABILITY TO BE FLEXIBLE). Many a-games are lost due to people not wavering on their town reads. Smudge is more saying EARLY readslists are necessarily helpful, I believe, which is again debatable.

To me the problem is more that SRMP was able to CLEARLY and EASILY organize every player into a category. I couldn't do that now, not even close!

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

counterpoint: don't be a stubborn jerk about your reads lol.

Diden't look like a complaint

I think it did, quite glaringly too. Why are you so nervous about that push?

In fact the as I didn't put a "?" after my comment attached to the quote I made of your read list might point you in the direction that it was neither a complaint or a question, merely an observation, some might say a reaction test, which going by your overt defensive of a simple observation, well its a good reaction to gain. why did you think at that moment in the game you were under attack from me?

DING DING DING. He reacted very poorly, and almost certainly from a scum POV.

1. That's what talking and sharing information is for. In a reductio ad absurdum, nobody posts anything so scum can't work on misdirection, and in the end scum wins because town didn't have enough info to go with.
2. To win the game = to kill town.
3. Scum wins by default if town doesn't do anything. Town must be active and hunt scum to win. That's done by getting information.
That said, your and AzoriusSenate's point is that then scum can work on misdirection. Point accepted.

So, would you agree on this more nuanced statement: "read lists give a lot of information. Information is a powerful town weapon, but it can potentially be subverted by scum, so it should be handled with care. How exactly to do that depends on the game-specific circumstances."?

Anyway, if you know of a good article in the wiki or discussion in MD about this topic, please post it. This theory talk shouldn't derail us from what's going on right now, but it's still important.

They grow up so fast *wipes tears from eyes*

I don't know of any tbh. No one really says that reads lists are bad...I don't think. Not many, anyway. People tend to oppose early ones but that REALLY isn't a big deal. I actually like them because I think it helped me catch scum in SRMP ^_^

[hiplop]

Belisarius, you've been rather quiet about SRMP too. Why?

[hiplop]

Town Vs Town

[hiplop]

Quick Check in, but yea, good post.

Kim, thoughts on this development?

[hiplop]

SRMP is at L1

by the way so please,

do not hammer

(vote) without stating intent

L-1 = Lynch minus one, meaning one vote to lynch~

An unclaimed hammer leaves town with little information and puts us behind. Seriously don't do it.

[hiplop]

Belisarius, you've been rather quiet about SRMP too. Why?

Because I still remember my first game, and how intimidated I was by an aggressive SE. (Who, for the record, turned out to be a pretty cool guy in the end).

Smudger's case looks really good on the surface, and in a non-newbie game I'd probably be on the wagon, but in this situation I remain unconvinced.

Acceptable answer, but why did you wait until being prodded to say it?

[hiplop]

actually, eh i can self hammer, but I don't feel like breaking the rules, just hammer me and let me join other games (stuck with only 1 game is boring af, I would rather get lynched d1 in 10 games at once )

Always look on the bright side of like doo do doo doo do doo?

UNVOTE:

Too many games have quickhammers. I want to see his claim and etc

[hiplop]

actually, eh i can self hammer, but I don't feel like breaking the rules, just hammer me and let me join other games (stuck with only 1 game is boring af, I would rather get lynched d1 in 10 games at once )

desperately trying to figure out if this is an attempt at AtE (appeal to emotion) or if he actually is just upset

(BTW, sorry for lacklustery posts last day or two. Got a nasty flu )

[hiplop]

I know. I'll revote soon. I'm mostly trying to reevaluate if we're right here. I'm pretty damn certain the slot is scum but that last post is making me twitch a little

also sick etc etc. Want to hear more from people like Belisarius

[hiplop]

Kim: /Somewhat offtopic: If it helps, I'll tell you this: when I became interested in Mafia, at first I supposed it was a logic game. Watch who lies, who is inconsistent, and voilà, scum found. That's why I once said I like the way you post, btw. My first posts actually reflect this belief: I saw no reason we couldn't all be friendly and talk about pizza and Canadian music while also playing the game seriously.

Now, after playing for a few days, I'm increasingly suspicious logic's only a small part of it, and what differentiates good players is skill in bluffing and reading people, in that order. Read a few games from non-newbies, and it's like they're all BSing each other until, somehow, a scumdar pings. And I'm a crappy card player in RL. In other words, I like this game, but it's hard, and in different ways than expected.

you're not wrong! Mafia is a weird game that is somewhat logic based but also very emotional. I'm glad you're picking up on this sorta stuff, makes me happy!

And I mean perhaps my unvote is not the best, but I am sick and not in the right state of mind to process the latest string of SMRP posts.

[hiplop]

@

hiplop

: The flu is awful. Get better soon.

Let me ask you the same thing I asked Kim: supposing SMRP's not the right lynch, what would you suggest?

Currently pondering this question myself. I am having second thoughts about SMRP but I really don't see who else could be scum right now

I'm in a dillemma, witch lol

[hiplop]

SMRP- Based on my scumread of Smudger. He may be mafia, but I don't have my eye on him.

nvm.

VOTE: smrp

Don't hammer without a claim, but yea this slot is scum

[hiplop]

Huge congrats to Witch and Bel for the win! Its super late here but tomorrow trust I'm gonna make a big post about my thoughts!