Newbie 1676 | Hungarian Nóták | Endgame

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.04 A szegedi csikós

The lyrics are for this version because I like that version better.

A szegedi csikós lent itat a Tiszán.
Sárga cserép csengő cseng a csikaja nyakán.
A babája Kati, kint lakik a tanyán.
Tizenhárom fodros szoknya ring a derekán.
Tizenhárom fodros szoknya, kerek akár a káposzta.
A szegedi csikós lent itat a Tiszán.
Sárga cserép csengő cseng a csikaja nyakán.

A szegedi csikós igen nyalka legény,
Megnézik ha csárdást jár a csárda közepén,
A szegedi csikós gavallér is nagyon,
A Katinak rojtos kendőt vesz a piacon.
Rojtos kendő nagyon drága, megcsappan a csikó ára
A szegedi csikós igen nyalka legény,
Megnézik ha csárdást jár a csárda közepén.


The wrangler from Szeged waters his foals at the Tisza.
A yellow porcelain bell rings on his foal’s neck.
His girlfriend Kati lives out on the farm
A skirt with thirteen ruffles sways around her waist.
Thirteen ruffled skirt, as round as a cabbage.
The wrangler from Szeged waters his foals at the Tisza.
A yellow clay bell rings on his foal’s neck.

The wrangler from Szeged is a dashing lad,
They watch him if there’s a csardas dance in the middle of the csarda,
The wrangler from Szeged is also very cavalier,
he buys Kati a fringed headscarf at the market
Fringed scarf is very expensive, it costs more than a foal
The wrangler from Szeged is a dashing lad,
They watch him if there’s a csardas dance in the middle of the csarda.

lynching

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch or no lynch.

Bluebird

(L-3): AzoriusSenate, Some Random Mafia Player

Belisarius

(L-4): Bluebird,

MrCurlyNoodles

Kim

(L-4): Belisarius,

Some Random Mafia Player

Some Random Mafia Player

(L-4): hiplop

Not voting

(4): Kim, Smudger, Witch_Hunter, MrCurlyNoodles

D

e

a

d

l

i

n

e

:

(expired on 2016-01-20 14:00:00)

.

M

o

d

n

o

t

e

s

:

L

e

t

m

e

k

n

o

w

i

f

t

h

e

r

e

a

r

e

a

n

y

p

r

o

b

l

e

m

s

w

i

t

h

t

h

e

V

C

.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

@Mod: you state 3 ppl arent voting, but list witch, kim, smudger, and curly.

@

AzoriusSenate

: Welcome!
I like your first post. Lean on information, but seems a legit effort. Interesting read on Bluebird. I'd interpreted her first post as noobtown indignated at being accused and overreacting, but it'd be interesting to see what she has to say for herself.

@

Some Random Mafia Player

:
I also liked your post, at first. Until I got to the end.
It has one

little

thing I don't understand: the conclusion does not follow from the premises. Your case on Bluebird follows on AzoriusSenate's and reinforces it, and most of your post is spent on it. So far, so good. Yet you vote on Kim, saying "havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird", though you only pointed to one post of his.

So, please enlighten me here. What's your case on Kim, and why vote him if he's not your strongest scumread?

As I stated, discussion lynch, and I mostly saw discussion on the ppl interacting with kim, not kim themself. That dident work though because due to doing that people discussed me for trying to start a discussion on kim instead of discussing kim because that was the whole point for the vote everyone sees as scummy in the first place.

Off topic: David Bowie. Rest in peace, man, and thank you for the music.

so your trying to tell me I shouldent try to find scum because its "not a town mindset?"

where do I say that? I am interested to understand why you would produce a read list so early in the game and from 3 pages of interaction? in addition what is your view on the thought is some minds that early read-lists can also be detrimental to a town player?

What I said was note aimed at you.

I would post an early read list because whats the problem with showing your thoughts early? I feel like this is opposed, due to kim doing it and suddenly getting branded scummy (which is not my reason) also addressed this seperately

and I would like you to explain how the second part makes any sense. When are showing your thoughts ever bad for town? if your not posting your thoughts, are we rving all day 1? I dont see it

And since I keep thinking of things. Another thing I want to point out was that I was not planning to stick with the lynch, so if I was bussing, why would I lead a lynch before hopping off the wagon? That would be scummy as fuck and get me lynch easily, then again, thats wifom. Now that i think of it, your assuming I am trying to avoid a bus (I think) if you are, how could I still be bussing? That would mean 3 scum. So do you thnik im bussing or avoiding a bus? Also,

belisaurus, I guess your right, but if you flipped scum I was suspicious of bluebird anyway, it wouldent have made much difference in my reads chart. I probably dident take into account the possibility of your flip coming first because im sure bluebird is dying first due to getting a d1 lynch (unless the sub turns it around)

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

witch, its page 3, theres not much to base off of does not contain much, its only page 4, page 3 at that time. The main thing is what Azorius said, which imo makes a lot of sense.

Once again, I could have just pmed my partner my reads if I was scum and just not post anything, since apparently it wouldent help me to do so since I would be branded scummy, so I dont see a reason for scum to post an early readlist. If I am town and doing that, why accuse me as scum when as scum, it doesent do anything but make me scummier to do so? Also, why is me posting a readlist scummy when hiplop did the same thing? Smudger, why are you complaining about my readslist, but not hiplops? (No, this is not a case on hiplop, this is just pointing out faulty logic in an argument, I dont see him as scummy for a readlist since I did the same.)

now that I think about it, What do you guys think about hiplop being the start of 2 wagons (me and belisarius) that both had faulty logic? I guess 1 is fine, but the fact that he started 2 seems scummy, altho I need to check his meta first

Just discussion points/addressing things directed at me.

[Plotinus]

@Mod: you state 3 ppl arent voting, but list witch, kim, smudger, and curly.

C

o

u

n

t

i

n

g

i

s

h

a

r

d

.

F

i

x

e

d

,

t

h

a

n

k

y

o

u

!

[MrCurlyNoodles]

Read on Azorius? (to comment on more of your post I need this read)

My read on Azorius is pretty neutral. They haven't done anything to make me think they're scum or to prove to me that they're town. I figure they're probably town since we're the majority, but overall my read is neutral.

I kind of agree with what you're saying on the subject of read lists, though i understand how it could help scum. Also hiplop's realist did get called out and he justified it, saying he likes to give new players his thoughts to help them with the game. Personally I find them helpful, as a new player, just to see more of how people work through the logic in this game and get a feel for what people are thinking, however I totally understand how read lists could potentially help scum and, if you were scum, you could be doing it to encourage more people to do it (as opposed to just sending your scum partner your reads, which you mentioned earlier).

[Some Random Mafia Player]

Read on Azorius? (to comment on more of your post I need this read)

My read on Azorius is pretty neutral. They haven't done anything to make me think they're scum or to prove to me that they're town. I figure they're probably town since we're the majority, but overall my read is neutral.

I kind of agree with what you're saying on the subject of read lists, though i understand how it could help scum. Also hiplop's realist did get called out and he justified it, saying he likes to give new players his thoughts to help them with the game. Personally I find them helpful, as a new player, just to see more of how people work through the logic in this game and get a feel for what people are thinking, however I totally understand how read lists could potentially help scum and, if you were scum, you could be doing it to encourage more people to do it (as opposed to just sending your scum partner your reads, which you mentioned earlier).

Lets once again assume im scum, if I was scum, wouldent I just use the same justification instead of potentially giving a scummy explanation and making myself look scummier?

and I dont understand how read lists help scum, so if someone can explain that, that would be great kthx. Either way, those were early game impressions, if scum use those to kill people i think are town, more than likely my reads would probably change by then, and the old reads would probably be not very useful. And yes, I do encourage ppl to post readlists until im told why its otherwise bad for town.

[Witch_Hunter]

Alright, I admit I'm also curious about the read list conumdrum.

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that

could

be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are

definitely

useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

(The only exception would be PRs, a key piece of information where scum and town are equally in the dark, and that's why this isn't discussed without the utmost care. This is where security outweighs transparency. And that's all we should be saying about the subject today, really.)

What's the argument for secrecy? How does town benefit from it?

[Some Random Mafia Player]

Alright, I admit I'm also curious about the read list conumdrum.

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that

could

be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are

definitely

useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

(The only exception would be PRs, a key piece of information where scum and town are equally in the dark, and that's why this isn't discussed without the utmost care. This is where security outweighs transparency. And that's all we should be saying about the subject today, really.)

What's the argument for secrecy? How does town benefit from it?

of course you would not discuss Pr's, if you tried to find a PR specifically this early ur obvscum imo.

But this post is right.

[AzoriusSenate]

Alright, I admit I'm also curious about the read list conumdrum.

From my (admittedly newbie) point of view, posting read lists should be good for town. Mafia is about information. Scum already knows who belongs to what faction, town doesn't. Read lists give information that

could

be useful for scum (what player X thinks is going on) but are

definitely

useful for town (who is probably town, who is probably scum): it's not a game like poker, where you have to read everyone else on your own, but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

(The only exception would be PRs, a key piece of information where scum and town are equally in the dark, and that's why this isn't discussed without the utmost care. This is where security outweighs transparency. And that's all we should be saying about the subject today, really.)

What's the argument for secrecy? How does town benefit from it?

The more experienced players can touch on this as well, but I will explain my POV. People making lists with scum and town in them gives scum a lot of information. Obviously town is already sharing there thoughts but there is something very potent in lists. The scum can easily use these lists, if incorrect, to manipulate town. Another point to be made is that they really are useless. At this point we should all have people we do and don't want to lynch today. Putting everything on the table for scum to see is unnecessary and could lead to them gaining an advantage. Plus, it's very early in the game so reads should absolutely not be set in stone.

[AzoriusSenate]

Made a grammar mistake in my above post. Curses!

Anyway I'm heading off until tomorrow around a similar time. Definitely do not lynch anyone until I get back.

[MrCurlyNoodles]

From my noobie POV I see early read list as potentially helpful to scum because they're (probably) mostly incorrect and could be used to
1) more easily convince other people to lynch a townie that most people only think is kind of scummy and wouldn't lynch normally,
2) see that their partner is going under and throw them under the bus to seem innocent,
or 3) just gain information on where the town stands and who is the easiest to sway/how to sway people.

I'm aware these are all things scum can do while just playing the game but I feel like it's easier with early read lists. I think the other problem is once you put people in roles on a list they become more "real", like it's harder to change your mind once its set down in writing and not just an idea in your head. Which is potentially self-destructive early game for the town. I'm conflicted however because I agree that more information about what people are thinking is almost always better for town. And it helps me as a new player understand what the more experienced players are thinking. Either way that's just my opinion.

[Kim]

(Seriousness level: 3/5. I would not have put you at L-1 at this time.)

In my opinion putting serious measurements on your vote is something that scum would do. Let me explain. So scum don't want to be noticed right? How can they reduce the impact of their votes? Maybe by putting a serious meter on their vote (3/5, the epitome of middle ground) so as to soften the impact of a vote?

I see how you could see things that way, but the denominator was based on the number of votes we need to lynch and the numerator was based on that minus 2 (since I wouldn't have put him at L-1). After a little bit of thought, though, it seems to me there are really just 3 levels of seriousness: RVS votes, votes where you're ready to lynch the player right then and there, and everything else. My vote fell in the latter category.

@

Kim

: We couldn't disagree more in our conclusions. Hiplop's my strongest townread so far. Sure, that's not very strong, more like 60%, but it's still something. So I'm wary of posts like:

I think that hiplop's actions are worthy of pressure.

Allow me to explain. Either hiplop saw Belisarius' first vote or he didn't.
[ . . . ]
Later, the same process is at play. Belisarius changes his vote to you and hiplop does the same at once.
[ . . . ]
Again, either hiplop's town or stupid. And I'd rather bet our IC is not stupid.

im not toally convinced the scum reason is impossible, and I see it as likely since he never actually explained reasoning for it, and then unlynched when called out for it. The paragraph about skim reading is WIFOM.

It seems to me like you're saying that it's likely hiplop changed his vote for scum reasons. Is that correct? If so, why did you say that he "doesn't seem townie or scummy" at the end of that post?

Re: early readlists: I see both sides to the issue, now that it's been raised. This is the first time I've heard complaints about their existence, though. The newbie game I subbed into had 3 readlists published by page 3. (However, the IC was having severe IRL problems and the SEs were both scum, so....) The first two readlists in my other newbie game weren't published until page 5 and 7, so the issue didn't come up.

[Smudger]

I question how read lists are bad, if we arent sharing our reads, what are we doing?

I acknowledge that Azorius has pretty much answered this but as it is directed at me I will answer also: providing read list early can be used to manipulate the game later, in particular by scum if the list comes from a town player. you are scum and you see a town player reading you as town, how will you react? conversely as town and you see a player reading you as scum, how would you react and how could scum use that to manipulate the game?

Also, he has 13 useless posts, he made 1 post you agree with and you call him town for the 1 post and ignore the fact he made 13 useless posts?

and you have 14 posts, point out how those posts of mine that have questions in, which Curlynoodles seems to have missed, are useless?

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

questions here for you curlynooodles...

What I said was note aimed at you

ok, but based on my comment and that of Azorius above do you understand why I questioned your read list. plus you seem defensive and sating a lot of "if I was scum" "is this scummy" etc... I actually find that scummy. That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

Your post 101 is hard to follow who you are responding to or questioning, can I ask that you do something along the lines of split each question to an individual into a separate post, and/or quote the post you are responding to then comment. or do as I have done here by linking the post. And finally you could bold the name of the person you are interacting with such as

@ Smudger

... thanks

[Smudger]

EBWOP and everyone else has responded to readlists it seems.... I must remember to complete catch up before posting....


bottom line is I don't usually post full read list until things get going in the game and there is a lot of interaction ,discussion and argument.

[Smudger]

and I would like you to explain how the second part makes any sense. When are showing your thoughts ever bad for town? if your not posting your thoughts, are we rving all day 1? I dont see it

I asked you to give us your view on the subject, now that many have responded to it do you understand what my question was about? I am not saying you should not give opinion, you are of course free to do so and should not be afraid to do so. But you might want to consider how that maybe used in game and whether or not you might want to hold back on your opinion to see how things develop.

[Smudger]

but a team game where we build on each other's opinions to get progressively more information, thus reducing scum's inherent advantage.

how do you know who is in your team? what is scum's main aim? how do they achieve that aim?

[Smudger]

What's the argument for secrecy? How does town benefit from it?

there is no secrecy in declaring I find this person scummy or that person town, consider what I and others have no stated in thread concerning how you do this..

[Smudger]

like it's harder to change your mind once its set down in writing and not just an idea in your head.

so you cannot change your POV as the game progresses? I see what you are saying but what is this game about?

[Smudger]

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

you missed my post about time differences? or are you just becoming tunnel visioned because I questioned you?

[Smudger]

Smudger, why are you complaining about my readslist, but not hiplops? (No, this is not a case on hiplop, this is just pointing out faulty logic in an argument, I dont see him as scummy for a readlist since I did the same.)

ummmmmm

scumreads:
Bluebird (overly defensive in rvs mostly, but
Belisarius (if bluebird flips scum)
Kim (havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird)

neutral:
Mrcurlynoodles: (his post seems town, but he needs to be more active before I can for sure call him town)
hiplop: (doesent seem townie or scummy.)
Smudger: (inactive and mosty useless posts. But 64 looks towny

Townreads
witch: (I see nothing scummy and lots of town)
AzoriuSenate (He just came in, but that post looks town. I could see it coming from scum though)

wow all that from three pages....

Reads right now for those viewers at home
Town
Witch
Kim
Noodles
AzoriiiousSenate

Null
Smudge
Belisarius
(Cmon SE's, get more active )

Scum
Bluebird
Some Random Mafia Player - Seriously, this is not a town mindset

my word the read lists are appearing early this season... why?

[Smudger]

Thoughts on SRMP?

when I began catching up I said this

That said you continue to make sense. and you are pushing so I lean town on you.

but now as I have reached the end of my catch up and read back, its clear he is skimming and beginning to tunnel me based off of not actually reading my posts.

for example his comment about me questioning him on his read list and not you, then obviously unaware of what being +4 gmt means. the thing is all those posts were one after the other in the thread... so why he would not see them is strange, I retract the town lean on him.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

Also, I am still unhappy smudge hasent really interacted with anyone. He asked me 2 questions, made a decent post, and thats kinda it. The other 13 have not been helpful. Doesn't change my stance on him much though.

you missed my post about time differences? or are you just becoming tunnel visioned because I questioned you?

I did, but that still should not excuse 13 off topic posts and 2 (now more) on topic posts.

[Some Random Mafia Player]

Smudger, why are you complaining about my readslist, but not hiplops? (No, this is not a case on hiplop, this is just pointing out faulty logic in an argument, I dont see him as scummy for a readlist since I did the same.)

ummmmmm

scumreads:
Bluebird (overly defensive in rvs mostly, but
Belisarius (if bluebird flips scum)
Kim (havent seen towny things, bu have seen scummy things from this slot. Not the most scummy, but is second behind bluebird)

neutral:
Mrcurlynoodles: (his post seems town, but he needs to be more active before I can for sure call him town)
hiplop: (doesent seem townie or scummy.)
Smudger: (inactive and mosty useless posts. But 64 looks towny

Townreads
witch: (I see nothing scummy and lots of town)
AzoriuSenate (He just came in, but that post looks town. I could see it coming from scum though)

wow all that from three pages....

Reads right now for those viewers at home
Town
Witch
Kim
Noodles
AzoriiiousSenate

Null
Smudge
Belisarius
(Cmon SE's, get more active )

Scum
Bluebird
Some Random Mafia Player - Seriously, this is not a town mindset

my word the read lists are appearing early this season... why?

Diden't look like a complaint

[Some Random Mafia Player]

Who? MrCurlyNoodles? If you're suspicious of him, why are you voting Witch Hunter?

the Gif? its a joke linked to my Canadian jibe.....

to answer you second question. I get a feeling when I read the posts that happened before my vote from the slot that they are contrived, attempting to fit in. after all he is a self confessed noob,

If someone's serious voting on page 2, I want to know why.

who me or the other serious vote on page two?

Before you play the WIFOM card, that kind of shit is really hard to fake as scum, can backfire very easily,

can you give examples of how or where it has back fired?

We couldn't disagree more in our conclusions

who is "We"

That said, overall I like this post a lot better than the ones that piqued my interest and vote as explained above. Witch's later inputs are, and unashamedly sheeping Hiplop here, town in its feel. the fact he looked at both POVs, they make sens and then he qualified why he would think Hiplop town are sound on a first and second read through.

UNVOTE:

but his disregard of you voting him (despite it being on faulty grounds) and his quick, mostly unexplained vote change to Kim seemed a little out of place to me. Kim's logic about unexplained vote changes needing to be called out makes sense to me and applies to Belisarius as much as it did to you. So my vote stays with him for now.

have you questioned him on this? Belisarius is an experienced player, would you suspect him to have a reason for his actions? I often don't react to a vote that is placed on me, for varying reasons. if it is out of the blue then I consider it to see who else jumps onto the wagon, as it may well be a reaction test for other players. If it stays for a while and there is no explanation even after the voter continues posting in thread then of course I will speak up. As for a vote changing without explanation why does it make sense to you for it to be called out? I mean are there reasons someone might do this?

This and the question at me earlier were what I took, the 2 posts about read lists I thought were just random comments.

[Smudger]

I did, but that still should not excuse 13 off topic posts and 2 (now more) on topic posts.

they contain questions like the ones you keep missing for example, you pick up on my quoting the read list from Hiplop and asked me why I did not question him on it. Have a look at that quote and my comment after I quote it. Do you see the word "why" followed by a "?". that's a question.

In fact the as I didn't put a "?" after my comment attached to the quote I made of your read list might point you in the direction that it was neither a complaint or a question, merely an observation, some might say a reaction test, which going by your overt defensive of a simple observation, well its a good reaction to gain. why did you think at that moment in the game you were under attack from me?

[Smudger]

oh and btw some of the posts above have questions for you to answer Random Mafia Player, so be a good chap and give me your thoughts