Newbie 1686 ~ Endgame

[BlueTrin]

Hi there I'll need to catch up tomorrow, i am going to bed.

[BlueTrin]

Lol PC and this guy Kain in the same game: this is hilarious

[BlueTrin]

UNVOTE: until I have caught up

[BlueTrin]

Spoiler:

We're in the later half of the day and the vanity wagons need to consolidate. Species and Ice³ ... are your votes on Kain firm votes? Can you give a case for why?

I am on firm standings on my vote unless there is evidence to lean more so onto another person and I gave all of my evidence in earlier comments I had made.

He hasn't scum hunted

Are you townreading him?

What if he is doing some sort of reverse Psychology?

Ok ok sure but my point about his scumread on me being a towntell stands. Ya don't gotta agree with it but I maintain the read.

Altogether I'm pretty disappointed with Ice's return. My gut tells me he's scum but I'd want way more from him.

Hey Clumsy, vote Bitten with me, yeah?

I've posted 5 times and made my case against someone who hasn't scumhunted once and has been vote hopping and that makes me scum?

I don't have anything to add,but Kain hasn't been on in a bit

It really seems that Kain is being really defensive and wants to boot out anyone who seems even slight suspicion in him.

This should be quite obvious that he is scum especially with his last few posts

You may agree or disagree with Kain but he did his fair bit of scum hunting. In this case, much more than yourself, what's your obsession with him ? Do you have any other reads or you are just trying to pick the low hanging fruit as scum ?

Also, read your own posts above and see who is being defensive here ?

I am on my phone but I think you have one of the lowest contribution here in contents and number of posts.

[BlueTrin]

It is an aacii code, I think ALT+0179, or just copy paste it

[BlueTrin]

Ice, please reply to our accusations, you are at L-2 ? I am considering putting you at L-1

A few notes:

1. Nahdia, I effectively read your posts and agree with your points, I should have given you credit for mentioning this first.
   
2. KainTepes, although I agree with you on Ice, I think you are the kind of guy who will use CAPS and get attention whether you are town or scum. It would be nice if you can make longer posts when accusing someone. This is not like town of salem where the day lasts only 2 minutes.
   
3. Clumsy, I think you are town in this game, you are posting much more than in our previous game.
   
4. Phantom, do you have any reads aside from species ?
   
5. Drixx are you holding back ? You are asking Clumsy his ISO but didn't post your own reads so far ?

Also, if you are town, you should post opinions and argue with others. If you lurk, you are giving more room for scum to hide.

[BlueTrin]

I've been getting a bit apathetic towards this game haha

Why is that ?

[BlueTrin]

MY TUMMY HURTS...

I don't know if you realise but you add a lot of clutter, it is not the caps which is the most annoying but the fact that you fill half of the pages with one liners. I am sure I am not the only one here to consider a policy lynch.

Also, if I understand correctly you got refused in one open game from Maestro, maybe someone refused to play with you ? You are maybe starting to get a reputation here.

[BlueTrin]

Ice, please reply to our accusations, you are at L-2 ? I am considering putting you at L-1

A few notes:

1. Nahdia, I effectively read your posts and agree with your points, I should have given you credit for mentioning this first.
   
2. KainTepes, although I agree with you on Ice, I think you are the kind of guy who will use CAPS and get attention whether you are town or scum. It would be nice if you can make longer posts when accusing someone. This is not like town of salem where the day lasts only 2 minutes.
   
3. Clumsy, I think you are town in this game, you are posting much more than in our previous game.
   
4. Phantom, do you have any reads aside from species ?
   
5. Drixx are you holding back ? You are asking Clumsy his ISO but didn't post your own reads so far ?

Also, if you are town, you should post opinions and argue with others. If you lurk, you are giving more room for scum to hide.

Yes I have held back a bit. I'm trying to sort KT because his post style seems like it's intentional and I am trying to discern if he's scum using it as a way to keep from slipping or if he's town and hoping he'll be viewed as an easy lynch and left alive so he can solve the game. I also wanted to see what you would do replacing in (so far, I'm fairly impressed and getting a good vibe; you get extra points for calling me out), and I still want to see the clumsy ISO and I am holding my thoughts back a little so as not to give him something to sheep. He has pressure on him to produce (although it is lessened by the pressure on Ice³) and I really want to see what he produces as it will be very useful in reading him.

With Phantom being fairly strongly focused on species (your slot), I am also interested to see his response to your entrance.

Well for KT, you can see his history here. He is posting one liners and gets accused of trolling in many games. I think he is trying genuinely to play the same way as Mafia and Town. Unfortunately I am not allowed to discuss other games but let's say that he likes to say that his tummy hurts for some reason.

Bleh rereading is hard can someone can give me a concise list of points about why ice³ is scum?

Cmon Dwlee, it was just one page ago .

I cannot speak for others, but I think Nahdia pointed out that Ice3 is focusing on KT and is tunneling him.

Personally, I didn't like this post:

This should be quite obvious that he is scum especially with his last few posts

KT is annoying, but it is far from obvious to me that he is scum.

So Nahdia thought that Ice3 was maybe to get a wagon on KT, although in retrospect this seems to be actually hard to get a wagon on KT because he is not putting much argumentation in his posts.

Now that I re-read the whole history, I am not so sure about Ice3, especially that he put the first vote. However, following my post in 238, I noticed that Bitten wanted to put more pressure on Ice based on her gut feelings.

Just checking in quickly, midterms are kicking my ass. I'll be back soon but might go on a short V/LA
I am keeping an eye on the time here though no worries. And I'm actually intrigued by BlueTrin (Welcome!) in 238 , and actually all of the real arguments against Ice but especially that he really hasn't done much scum hunting. We do have a fair few lurkers here but calling Kain out for not scum hunting when his version of scum hunting is just pushing Kain's buttons seems weird
I still don't think Kain is a good choice for lynch, at least not today. I think his play style can be grating but isn't necessarily scum indicative. I'm more intrigued to see how Ice does with some pressure on, so
VOTE: Ice
(how do you get the cubed? I can't do it)

Nahdia caught up on this weak argumentation, I wanted to wait to see what happens with Bitten as she seemed to just follow the wagon.

whoooops

I'm more intrigued to see how Ice does with some pressure on, so
VOTE: Ice

This is a pretty transparent excuse to vote somebody and while it doesn't immediately scream scum to me, if Ice³ is suddenly at L-1 and you aren't reviewing your vote I'm gonna be unhappy.

Bitten promised to elaborate later, and admitted it was based on her 'gut' instincts.

whoooops

I'm more intrigued to see how Ice does with some pressure on, so
VOTE: Ice

This is a pretty transparent excuse to vote somebody and while it doesn't immediately scream scum to me, if Ice³ is suddenly at L-1 and you aren't reviewing your vote I'm gonna be unhappy.

Can I just attribute it to a feeling for now and give a better post when I have the time? Bah. I have every intention of reviewing and fleshing this out when I have the chance.

Good enough summary for Dwlee99 ?

[BlueTrin]

(apologies if I should not have mentioned KT history)

[BlueTrin]

So there isnt even much evidence against ice? I have a gut town read on bitten so I don't think it is scum-driven.

I do not think anybody wants to lynch Ice3 at this point, however people would like him to be on pressure so he would reply.

[BlueTrin]

Oh and no I'm not entirely new to the game. Very inexperienced in forum mafia in particular but I know the mechanics and such.

I think nobody asked you what your exact experience in the game is.
So I am asking you this. And based on your previous experience as playing scum, who here could be scum ?

PC you are the other SE, surely you must have a few reads ?

[BlueTrin]

At this point, his reluctance to reply or interact is seriously bothering me. I don't see much town motivation for it.

Sorry for the double post, I forgot to reply to this one.

Ice3 will get prodded tomorrow, in the meantime we can just keep a note about whether he'll reply and continue the discussion. I was giggling at the idea of putting pressure on KT but although it might be very funny I don't think we will get anything useful out of it.

[BlueTrin]

Oh and no I'm not entirely new to the game. Very inexperienced in forum mafia in particular but I know the mechanics and such.

I think nobody asked you what your exact experience in the game is.
So I am asking you this. And based on your previous experience as playing scum, who here could be scum?

Experience tl;dr
-Couple thousand chat mafia games (EpicMafia)
-3 Completed forum maf games (by this site's standards they'd be blitz games)
-2 games of Resistance
-4 marathon games

Based on my previous experience, I'm not liking Dwlee. I've absolutely used anger in the past to gain me some leeway when people start to catch onto me (not proud of it but I have done it). I thought Clumsy's point that Dwlee has played a really reactive game was a good one. You can make excuses for it all you like but proactive gameplay is, again in my experience, consistently more indicative of town. If he's really town I wish he'd be more active in trying to scumhunt than just asking for reads to sheep. He started out strong for me but has become a scumread at this point.

I don't necessarily agree with Drixx from 272 that Ice³'s failure to respond to pressure is indicative of scum; there's a million ways to read into someone disappearing. And if it is game related, both town and scum can be defeatist. But not agreeing with that line of thought doesn't make him scum. I really don't know where to go forward on someone who "doesn't give formal reads". Like what the heck is that about??? Okay so don't give me a formal read list just informally, casually even, tell me what you think of people -_-

My read on bitten going forward is going to depend on her next few posts. For now I respect needing to be spare because of midterms. And KainTepes was actually dead on in 257. If Ice³ does end up being town and bitten just transparently sheeped for the sake of pressure, she's going to look

really

bad. We'll cross that bridge if we come to it though.

As for you Blue I'm still definitely wary on your slot. This table has a lot of lurk and just general anti-town playstyles so it's pretty easy for anyone to jump in and suddenly gain a lot of cred just by being proactive and looking like you're sorting things out. A lot of your posts were reiteration of things others, myself especially, had said. Color me unimpressed.

Very True.

Nadia, you made a lot of good points, although I took some of your points, I tried to add my own bits such as the fact that Ice3 didn't contribute much.

I can mostly contribute only when I am back for work, or from time to time on my mobile. It is often the case that by the time I can post, most of the points have been made and I can only agree to what has been said.

A few things though:

• Clumsy thank you for the post
  
• I am also wary of Dwlee, I have let him go to see if something interesting would happen. Nahdia, I know you like to point out mistakes as soon as they happen but I prefer to let sometimes people develop, so it might come as I am copying you again, but Dwlee yesterday posted his fair bit of negative comments where he wouldn't check the previous page and asked summary. I am allowed by the rules to mention that he was posting somewhere else around the same time. So not sure why Dwlee cannot catch up here and has to ask summaries.
  
• To be completely honest: I checked Dwlee history of past finished games. He seems to post alot of short posts rather than lengthy arguments, so it may be his playstyle. Also I liked this post from Dwlee
  Spoiler: 125

  Yea, of course the policy lynch wouldn't go through. I was expressing my frustration cause of their play style of straight up caps. I was also a little pissy last night for reasons.

  , although it could be interpreted both ways: he could be setting up an association for later ?
  
• Agree with Clumsy point as well: Dwlee, if you want reaction, you can just start creating your own opportunities ?
  
• It is good that you are wary of my slots (like any other slot), this is the only way we can do some progress in the game.
  
• PC, I do not like your playstyle, like Dwlee, you will make only a few posts and show up only it pleases you. In the last game, this made me very suspicious of your slot.
  
• Also, I did not mention this one before( which is similar to what Drixx said in
  Spoiler: 279

  That was a really solid post Clumsy. I've got some notes and I'll do something similar but a little more succinctly. I've been working a lot lately on saying what I mean with less words, and less posts. If you go look at how frequently I posted and how long my posts were when I first joined the site, you'll understand what I mean.
  
  I think I already addressed the reason Phantom gave for that post bothering him. I have a note about it that I'll address when I make a similar post.
  
  As a general rule, I don't really make reads lists like some people do where I rank people in order of most town to most scum or anything like that. I'll post what I think of people and I'll ask questions, and when I am fairly sure I've got scum I'll put on pressure to be sure and once I'm sure you'll know. For example; Ice³ is really starting to get close to me being sure. When there's very little content, the content makes no sense and the player just goes dark, that's not a good sign IMO.

  Because I did not want to influence Ice3, so this is why I tried to ask people to wait for him to be prodded, and I wanted to see if he is gonna ask to be replaced out.

I find that this game will suffer from the following:

• PC and Dwlee will not participate actively but just comment
  
• KT will be KT
  
• Ice3 is not posting, I will check if he can be prodded

That's 4 players out of 9.

I want to hear more from you Dwlee than just asking summaries:
VOTE: Dwlee99

If I was to put buckets, I would do this at the moment:

• Town lean: Nahdia, Drixx, Clumsy
  
• Null: PC, Bitten
  
• Scum lean: Dwlee99, Ice3
  
• ???: KT (I think this will one will always be ???)

(Nahdia, you will notice that this is very similar to Clumsy's list, but I am not gonna lie just to look different, should I ?)

EDIT: After writing all of this, I re-read Dwlee ISO and he was a much nicer SE at the beginning of the game.

[BlueTrin]

Vote Count 1.10

[3] Ice³ ~ Nahdia (#206), KainTepes (#218), Bitten10minutesago (#241)
[1] BlueTrin ~ PhantomCobalt (#145)
[1] Clumsy ~ Dwlee99 (#84)
[1] Dwlee99 ~ Clumsy (#32)
[1] KainTepes ~ Ice³ (#164)
[1] Nahdia ~ Drixx (#9)

[1] Not Voting ~ BlueTrin (#237)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at (expired on 2016-03-05 19:30:00).

Ice³ was prodded.
[/color]

Thank you for prodding Ice3, also I voted Dwlee.

[BlueTrin]

Ice, it is considered as anti town to do what you are doing: responding only to prods and not adding much content.

If you are busy IRL, you should consider putting yourself on V/LA or asking for a replacement.

Although anti town does not mean scum, you are likely to be voted as you could be scum hiding and if you are town your contribution is almost null. Also this is bad because scum can get a lynch on you easily.

[BlueTrin]

can we just lynch ICE, we dont have much time left!!!

Only KT can get away with such scummy comments

[BlueTrin]

Guys with only 2 days we should agree on the potential lynchees.

Usually there is not much discussion until we get close to hammer time: in my previous game we even had a no lynch because people forgot to show up to hammer.

[BlueTrin]

Phantom still has his vote from post 145.

I mentioned this already I don't like PC style too much, in our previous game he was trollish and didn't contribute much: in the end he got lynched on LyLo while being town.

Are you trying to say that he is worse than you so I should move my vote ?

[BlueTrin]

Yes participation does not mean town but in the absence of 4 players participating actively, your choices become limited ?

I am a bit surprised that the 2 SEs are in this group though.

[BlueTrin]

NAH<dia>, phantom isnt doing anything.

I've seen scum that do nothing and I've seen town that do nothing. I've also seen town be active and I've seen scum be active. I don't think someone doing very little proves anything, dude, and I'm not sure how you can genuinely you have an accurate read on him.

Nahdia, personally I am not saying the inactive people are scum: all my posts just say that they are anti town and help the scum to hide. My reason to vote someone inactive is a policy lynch in the absence of a better lynch.

[BlueTrin]

Dwlee99 - If you are town, please stop with the "but other people are maybe scum" trying to get a rushed end of day lynch on someone else. If you are town you should be pointing out actual reasons from people's interactions why they are scum. What you are doing looks a lot like survivalism, and scum are who just need to get through the day alive and don't care who gets lynched. You seem not to care who it is, so long as it isn't you. That's not a town mindset in my experience.

Drixx, isn't it better to let him slip ?

[BlueTrin]

I do think Dwlee has a point with number 3 here. PC, could you please expand on this? Drixx, what are your thoughts?

On the face of it, my guess is that Phantom was trying to see how I would react to #300. The problem is that it's just not really a useful reaction test. I can't answer for how he reads my posts, so what can I say to his suggestion that I'm faking it? If he had been specific, there might be something for me to say, but otherwise it just looks like either a bad reaction test or an attempt to throw some doubt on what I was saying around that time. His disappearing from the thread makes it hard to follow up with it for sure.

I don't know that we should just lynch him for saying that and then disappearing, though. That seems like a stretch.

PC does that ... and disappear unfortunately.

Sorry that was me, I share a hydra account with someone else. Didn't check the account before to post. Apologies.

[BlueTrin]

I do think Dwlee has a point with number 3 here. PC, could you please expand on this? Drixx, what are your thoughts?

PC you didn't reply to this ?


Also Dwlee, if you believe PC is scum then why are you not moving your vote !
I am sure other people noticed as well.

This is part of why you are getting of survivalism ?

[BlueTrin]

Because there clearly isnt a wagon on PC. I'll move my vote if there is a chance the wagon is happening, right now my vote is better used on a wagon that has a chance of going through. I'd also like to mention that OMGUS from phantom is interesting and shows they're clearly following the thread along without doing anything.

You are too lazy to read the posts, too lazy to start a wagon, to lazy to post until I vote you ?

Can you summarise why we are better keeping you in the game ? I am tempted to tell you to not say because PC, KT and Ice are worse, but I guess that would kind of make sense with the current situation.

[BlueTrin]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

Dwlee, I think strong arming is the only way you'll get answers here and you both are SEs so I have no problem doing this.

PC reply please.

[BlueTrin]

Meant to post some text there, anyway, that's the only post having to do with ice. Pre-flip associations are meh but there is some things that point to an ice and phantom scum team.

Tbh I made this account and this is my first full game can a scum vote for another scum?

They call this bussing (I suppose it means to push your partner under the bus) when you actively try to lynch your partner.

This is done so the other partner earns town cred and then can lead the town afterwards.

I would be surprised to see this in D1 in a newbie game though.

Although a normal scum should vote his partner and not try to defend him as it will look suspicious when he flips scum.

[BlueTrin]

Btw if you want to get answers from PC I recommend putting him at L-2, KT will come and put him at L-1 anyway

[BlueTrin]

MY TUMMY STILL HURTS, PC R U HERE ???
VOTE: PC

[BlueTrin]

I could see KT quoting me and trolling me by saying that I was his alt

[BlueTrin]

BlueTrin do you actually scumread PC or are you just trying to exert pressure on him at this point? Having a hard time following your votes.

I want him to reply now, last game I was with him, he played in the same way and I predicted, that if he ended up as town in LyLo we would lose because nobody would trust him: this is what happened last game (although Clumsy was very good scum)

I would like him to speak more, but I suspect he just won't.

[BlueTrin]

I'll rethink my vote before the last day though, it will be most likely between Ice, PC, Dwlee and KT.

[BlueTrin]

Meant to post some text there, anyway, that's the only post having to do with ice. Pre-flip associations are meh but there is some things that point to an ice and phantom scum team.

Tbh I made this account and this is my first full game can a scum vote for another scum?

Note: This message is completely unrelated to the game at hand

I missed that post on my first read of the page.

Ice, sorry but I'll be frank with you: this really sounds like a really bad scum slip ? Although, it is so naive that I wonder whether it is really one.

[BlueTrin]

This wagon is tasty, all the scum on it Ruffles my jimmies

Drixx I'm going to ask you a few questions

Xbox or PS4?

Basketball or baseball?

French or Spanish?

Most importantly, if you had 3 balls in a bag. What colors would they be? Rainbow colors pls

PS4
Basketball
French
Red red and red

Can I play too ?

Are you talking about the Ice wagon ?

[BlueTrin]

(Appeal to emotion warning)

[BlueTrin]

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhggggggggggggg I dunno I'm sleepin on all this.

Good night it's 5 Am here and I can't sleep for some reason ...

Dwlee I put my vote on PC for him to talk, I don't really buy what you posted either, I'll re-read tomorrow though.

[BlueTrin]

Bitten you get easily swayed, isn't it ?

Also be wary about the fact that low post count is anti town, but anti town does not mean scum.

[BlueTrin]

Bitten you get easily swayed, isn't it ?

Also be wary about the fact that low post count is anti town, but anti town does not mean scum.

I do have a habit of being easily swayed, I'm working on it.

And that's a good point about it being anti town, I'll look for more scum cues when I have the chance. Definitely not anywhere near dropping the hammer until I can do my own read

It's not really a bad thing to re-evaluate.

I am new like you, so don't put too much weight in what I am saying.

Also I think some people here missed the fact that Dwlee is 14.

[BlueTrin]

Also I think some people here missed the fact that Dwlee is 14.

Why does this matter?

Because I think that explains why you are sending shorter messages and why you were lazy

I am 35, if I was to meet someone of my age who told me that he is too lazy and want a summary, I would tell him just do it yourself you lazy ass

[BlueTrin]

morning guys my head hurts like hell wonder why that could be.....

at this point I'm just interested in making sure we lynch SOMEONE. It's not my top choice but I am willing to hammer this vote. PC now would be the time to say anything else you've got in your defense/reads to you'd like to see us sheep down the line etc.

I agree with you, at the moment I am ready to hammer PC or Ice.

If people were voting KT I would gladly hammer him just to get least of his posts but this won't happen.

Drixx raised good points: in my last game PC was fairly detached, Clumsy had to chased him for replies in LyLo, so I was never expecting PC to make very long replies

Drixx you seem to say that PC is usually more active, this is different from my experience with PC in my last game. Is there an explanation for this ?

If PC and Ice were scummy, I think PC would bus Ice.

The only explanation I could come up with is that he does not care about this game ? Or he believe he made his points already clearly enough but then i don't get his points !

[BlueTrin]

Oh yeah ... Forgot to add this: Nahdia I hope you had a good Friday evening, if it hurts that much it must be good.

[BlueTrin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=64454

Uh, what am I supposed to gather from this?

PC, are you saying that you are scum in this game too ?

[BlueTrin]

viewtopic.php?p=7445598&user_select[]=26274#p7445598

I got it PC, you pointed to a game where you were scum and you were more talkative.

But why are you so cryptic in here and in my previous game ?

[BlueTrin]

Here's what makes little sense Dwlee99; if Phantom is just going to give up instead of try to save himself, why not self vote and deny us getting any more out of today? This passiveness when he's at L-1 is really strange.

Are you saying that PC is a VT ?

[BlueTrin]

Phantom what are your reads?

Please give all your reads in case you flip town ? PC ?

[BlueTrin]

I forgot: page top

[BlueTrin]

I think I'm leaning more for an Ice lynch today. They've disappeared while we've focused on PC.

You said they have disappeared.

Who are they ? Ice and who ?

Sorry did it again

[BlueTrin]

Guys if you want to hammer, or vote ice, we don't have much time

[BlueTrin]

Btw you can call me 'it'

[BlueTrin]

Phantom didnt even claim?

Hey anyone here ?

[BlueTrin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p7486381

this is my town game. im sad that i have to meta defend here with dwlee death tunneling me :/

Give your reads on everybody !

[BlueTrin]

Clumsy, I will be honest with you, PC is making me doubt the lynch. It is not as bad as when we lynched BBT, because PC is always a bit trolly.

I think we should go through the ISO and see who didn't post and who took some time to post negative opinion on Ice and PC. Once PC flips either town or scum this might give us some clues.

[BlueTrin]

Also, we kind of trust you to remember the alarm clock, if tomorrow there is no lynch and your excuse is "I forgot", you both will look like real scum buddies.

[BlueTrin]

Clumsy, I don't think he is gonna reply ... Do as you want, hammer now or later but please don't forget ...

[BlueTrin]

Clumsy, I will be honest with you, PC is making me doubt the lynch. It is not as bad as when we lynched BBT, because PC is always a bit trolly.

I think we should go through the ISO and see who didn't post and who took some time to post negative opinion on Ice and PC. Once PC flips either town or scum this might give us some clues.

exactly, me playing like this isnt alignment indicative

clumsy knows that i can win a game for town if people listen to me

It didn't quite work last time

[BlueTrin]

Also, Nahdia, after your drunken night, you unvoted. Where are you at with things now?

This is more what is troubling me (with Nahdia).

When I play Town of Salem, usually most of scum only join wagons against town, they rarely initiate them and sometimes are shy of hammering.
When scum gets accused they often vote late only when they realise that they will look scum if not voting.
On this website I guess things may be different.

[BlueTrin]

BTW, if PC, Clumsy, Nahdia, DWlee and myself are here, we are 5 to be able to vote. We can change the lynchee if we disagree that PC is scum.

[BlueTrin]

Also, Nahdia, after your drunken night, you unvoted. Where are you at with things now?

This is more what is troubling me (with Nahdia).

When I play Town of Salem, usually most of scum only join wagons against town, they rarely initiate them and sometimes are shy of hammering.
When scum gets accused they often vote late only when they realise that they will look scum if not voting.
On this website I guess things may be different.

Fraid that "tell" won't work on me. I'm almost always skittish with my votes this late in a day

because it's smart to be.

Nice job instantly throwing shade when I outted a scumread on you though.

This has nothing to do with your scumread, you always have been suspicious and I have no problem with it.

But I note that you were lurking in the last hours.

[BlueTrin]

Honestly, PC isn't my number one vote right now. Unfortunately, like our last game, it's going to be hard for us to believe him on things. It may just be the way he plays. But I would hate for us to get into LYLO again like the last game. Feel the same kind of thing about Kain as well. I do think there are better lynches, but unless we can come to a concensus in the next 4 hours, I'll hammer. Better than no lynch.

We can get the consensus, we are 5. I don't want it to be like when we lynched BBT.

Speak your mind now, if you want us to vote.

[BlueTrin]

I don't want to move off of pc. I feel like he would be hammered as town unless scum are already on his wagon.

I don't think this would be true on D1.

[BlueTrin]

Calling me "always suspicious" and randomly accusing me of lurking when that's a ridiculous notion is really the cherry on top. You're scum slinging mud, getting ready for the next day.

Did you explain what you were doing ? Because it is exactly what I felt you were doing ... setting up for the next day, because maybe you know how PC will flip ?

[BlueTrin]

HELLLOOOO!!!

why voting BLUETRIN, he seems like most TOWNIE person in this game, i want lynch DWLEE or ICE OR PC

Shut the hell up dude I'm this close to marking you as scum with him for your ridiculous trolling for claims.

Just speak your mind, even if you want to lynch me, if you believe PC is town, now is the moment to speak.

[BlueTrin]

Inclined to believe PC is town because of the dismal vote BlueTrin placed on him AND HAS STILL REFUSED TO REVIEW DESPITE IT BEING A WAGON LED BY HIS SCUMREAD. "Pressure" my ass. He's responded to the damn pressure dude and you haven't given a single reason you're lynching him.

Propose another wagon now then, you are making so much noise, get something going then.
We have the people to change the vote if you want.

Phantom refuse to claim, refuse to give his reads and gave weird questions to Drixx.
At the moment, I could vote for Ice if we can agree for that.
I am going through PC games and in his two first games on the site he was more talkative. The first time he was scum he actually defended himself.
I am trying to go through more recent games to see if he changed his gameplay.

I got it you don't like me, what about you do something instead of bitching around ? (sorry for being rude but you are starting to get on my nerves with your foul language)

[BlueTrin]

Inclined to believe PC is town because of the dismal vote BlueTrin placed on him AND HAS STILL REFUSED TO REVIEW DESPITE IT BEING A WAGON LED BY HIS SCUMREAD. "Pressure" my ass. He's responded to the damn pressure dude and you haven't given a single reason you're lynching him.

Also do you consider PC reaction quite townie yourself ?

Would you have reacted the same way ?

[BlueTrin]

Only person I want to change the lynch to is you. I'm making plenty of perfectly valid points against you. That's what I'm doing. Don't accuse me of doing nothing you mud slinger. I encourage others to vote with me because every post you make is absolutely reeking right now.

It's fine, but do something for tonight if you believe PC is town, you can get a wagon on me tomorrow.
Or even tonight if you think you can do it, but we need to avoid a no-lynch, isn't it ?

So what do we do NOW ?

[BlueTrin]

Inclined to believe PC is town because of the dismal vote BlueTrin placed on him AND HAS STILL REFUSED TO REVIEW DESPITE IT BEING A WAGON LED BY HIS SCUMREAD. "Pressure" my ass. He's responded to the damn pressure dude and you haven't given a single reason you're lynching him.

Also do you consider PC reaction quite townie yourself ?

Would you have reacted the same way ?

Hmmm... what could possibly be your motivation behind asking me this?

Because we are trying to get the right lynch tonight. You implied that PC showed resistance under pressure and that he must be town. So who is next if we don't vote PC ?

Seriously I have been asking the whole page to organise something because you were unhappy about how I handled PC. So name someone, I will follow blindly if we can get a lynch, even on myself as my flip will help. So show me how it is done.

Also the more I go through PC ISO the more doubts I have, because he is just ... unpredictable. I have a bias against him, because in Lylo he will make us lose if he is town. But the same can be said of KT and Ice.

[BlueTrin]

In short: someone get a wagon going ... if you believe PC is town. But do it NOW !

[BlueTrin]

WE ARE NOT DERAILING THE WAGON ON PHANTOM.

A Phantom lynch is happening and all the reasons to not vote him are crap. He has failed to give any reads or even claim.

I don't mind voting Ice if we can get the votes.

The only thing I want to avoid is a no-lynch.

[BlueTrin]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

L-1

Heaven help me.

WHY ?

[BlueTrin]

UNVOTE: Phantom Cobalt

[BlueTrin]

NAHDIA IS TOWN, BLUE. NOW LYNCH PHANTOM.

It's probably too late, she voted before me anyway.

I don't understand all her drama for her to hammer Phantom in the end ???

[BlueTrin]

All this language to do this exactly in the end ? What's the point ?

Frankly, Nahdia, you can make exactly the same points minus the foul language. Vote me tomorrow if you want, just spare me the name calling.

[BlueTrin]

Well, now he's at L-2.

I missed KT voting Ice.

Why would you refuse to vote someone else now ?

[BlueTrin]

Nahdia, would you vote for Ice ?

Who is your next scum read (excluding me because you will not get the lynch today on myself, I doubt that 4 people will vote against me, if you can get 4 people, I will even hammer myself if that pleases you) ?

[BlueTrin]

Or do you prefer to vote for Dwlee ?

[BlueTrin]

Would you like me to vote Ice?

No I am asking what YOU want.

[BlueTrin]

Christ dude my internet is hot garbage right now half the time I try to post it fails.

P-Edit: Well I'm asking what you want.

I was indifferent between Ice and PC, I said this many times, my third choice would be KT to get rid of his posts and his avatar.

I find that Dwlee last pages were ok after Drixx was pushing him. Could they be scum together ? I don't know.

Now I want you unbiased opinion and not influenced by mine.

[BlueTrin]

Page TOP !

[BlueTrin]

Okay how about this? How about KainTepes votes whoever I vote, I vote whoever BlueTrin votes, and BlueTrin votes whoever KainTepes votes? Sound like a plan?

Why won't you decide who to vote ?
You are avoiding to take responsibility for tonight's lynch.

You are usually quite sure of yourself but not now ? Why don't you just throw your best scum read and we will just roll with it ?

[BlueTrin]

VOTE: dwlee

Let's go boys

Man, this is why I hate you PC

[BlueTrin]

Jeeze man I dunno. I kind of wanna say Ice just to troll Dwlee but I think he might have a meltdown if we don't lynch PC lmao.

I don't care about him melting down, he is young and can recover.

I just want to hit scum, failing that I am happy to lynch anybody who is not active or trolling.

[BlueTrin]

why would you care if he has a MELTDOWN??? You scummates???

Man this is very actually funny ...

[BlueTrin]

This wagon is tasty, all the scum on it Ruffles my jimmies

Drixx I'm going to ask you a few questions

Xbox or PS4?

Basketball or baseball?

French or Spanish?

Most importantly, if you had 3 balls in a bag. What colors would they be? Rainbow colors pls

HOW ARE THESE QUESTIONS RELEVANT???

I dont like Phantom Cobalt's ISO I WILL BE HAPPY TO VOTE HIM BUT I LIKE DWLEE LYNCH BETTER

Nahdia, I din't mention it before, because I didn't want to influence the future posts, but this is a post that made me think.
Let me know what you think of the post above.

[BlueTrin]

why would you care if he has a MELTDOWN??? You scummates???

Dang dude you got me.

P-Edit: Null as Purgatory itself.

Ok maybe I am reading too much into it then.

[BlueTrin]

I will suggest something.
Would 4 of you vote me ?

[BlueTrin]

I read your post and I agree, with all points.

PEDIT: As Nahdia said she never tried to hammer him. The worst you could accuse her of, is to try to sway me from lynching him, but that is probably based on the way it was handled rather than the substance of the lynch.

[BlueTrin]

Straight up I'm just screwing around with people at this point. My vote is staying short of a claim.

So all of this name calling was just to annoy me ?

[BlueTrin]

Drixx, how long do you want us to wait for PC ?
it is late here, I will just put him at L-1 and you guys can hammer him if you want.

[BlueTrin]

VOTE: PhantomCobalt
You are at L-1 buddy.

[BlueTrin]

I want to see the flip ...

[BlueTrin]

I am surprised you didn't put me in the list of people to trust if PC flips scum though.

[BlueTrin]

HE IS DEFINITELY SCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WILL EAT MYSELF IF HE IS NOT

Please do, even if he is scum

[BlueTrin]

My only regret with him basically scum claiming is that I was way too involved. As IC, I have to play a certain way and appear like a good mislynch for scum to stay alive. If I'm alive tomorrow it will be because we've got a doctor or scum is trying to WiFoM. I was way too involved in ensuring the day didn't end chaotically and that puts a gigantic bullseye on my back.

Anything you can post before twilight is good then, unless you are in a hurry.

[BlueTrin]

NAHDIA MAY BE SCUMBUDDY. SHE RELUCTANT TO VOTE PC

She didn't sway when I tried to make her change her vote though.

Can be interpreted both ways as always.

[BlueTrin]

NAHDIA MAY BE SCUMBUDDY. SHE RELUCTANT TO VOTE PC

Excuse me?

He is basically saying that you tried to derail the wagon on PC.
You said you were messing around, so I guess you are saying this was a reaction test ?

[BlueTrin]

My only regret with him basically scum claiming is that I was way too involved. As IC, I have to play a certain way and appear like a good mislynch for scum to stay alive. If I'm alive tomorrow it will be because we've got a doctor or scum is trying to WiFoM. I was way too involved in ensuring the day didn't end chaotically and that puts a gigantic bullseye on my back.

Anything you can post before twilight is good then, unless you are in a hurry.

My reads are contingent on how PC flips, which is why I gave them that way. There's not much more to say. So much of day one depends on how the lynch and night kill go. I think for sure you guys need to sort KainTepes. He hammered but he did so using my post as an excuse, and he did so after you asked whether to wait and give PC time, and my answer was that we should try and give him time just in case. No matter how PC flips, KT has to be sorted.

Ice³ needs to be sorted and pushed to play and interact more.

I think I gave my reads contingent on how PC flipped on everyone. Am I forgetting anyone?

You mentioned Clumsy, do you have specific reads on him ?

[BlueTrin]

If PhantomCobalt is town I will eat a slice of pizza!!!!

So you want him to be town !

[BlueTrin]

Drixx, could you see a Drixx-Dwlee scum team ?

[BlueTrin]

Also, I don't know why PC didn't just defend himself more, I guess he cares about his meta ?

[BlueTrin]

i ate that pizza and it was delicious btw. win for Nahdia.

I had pizza anyway and ate PC's share

Nahdia, did you believe PC was town ?

[BlueTrin]

Oh okay. Maybe people were white knighting him? Idk. But I remember the scum claim post:

I'll try to info dump and self vote before deadline at a restaurant atm

I guess my act like I'm hammered thing didn't work

Where they said they acted like they were hammered even though they weren't.

It makes sense whether you are town or scum to do what he did: he just wanted to not be lynched. As town, he wanted to not be lynched because he is town.

At the time I thought: PC is not fighting this enough but at the same time I though ... This is bloody PC, he is never gonna be easy to read ...

I take part of the responsibility by moving the wagon onto him but I wish he defended himself a bit more like Dwlee did.

[BlueTrin]

I want to throw this out there for everyone to answer,

and I want an answer with reasoning

: What do we think of Drixx being scum?

Pros:

• He is an IC and mentioned that he was an asset, this indicating more or less that we should not lynch him
  
• He was not NKed on N1
  
• He read PC as scum (so do I, you can accuse me of the same thing)
  
• If Dwlee flips scum, there will be FoS on Drixx (and as well on me again)
  
• He prevented the wagon on PC to change targets (you can accuse me again on this one with Nahdia and Dwlee)

Cons:

• He seems sincere and posts his opinion
  
• He is busy, this could explain why he is posting not regularly
  
• I think the reason he is not posting and strong arming us is that this is a newbie game, so he wants us to experience the game
  
• I think he is was scum, since he is pretty experienced, he will WIFOM his actions anyway

[BlueTrin]

(all in all I believe Drixx is town)

[BlueTrin]

An old trick I learned from EM. Townread people until you've got three remaining players, investigate the interaction between those unclears and find two you don't believe can be partners, and then vote the third one. They are confirmed to be scum with one of the two that aren't partners themselves.

VOTE: BlueTrin

If it wasn't clear; this is a PoE vote.

You probably want to explain a bit more ? I am fine getting lynched if that helps the town, but I need some reassurance that your process is sound and that you are not scum yourself.

[BlueTrin]

You got your PoE, I got PT, page top !

[BlueTrin]

Nahdia, could you answer my post? And Kain, do you have any better reasoning?

Nah, I don't feel I should need to justify that read. How about you tell me why you think he's not town. Stop asking others to do all the work. Your only major contribution has been a list of sparse ISO reads...

An old trick I learned from EM. Townread people until you've got three remaining players, investigate the interaction between those unclears and find two you don't believe can be partners, and then vote the third one. They are confirmed to be scum with one of the two that aren't partners themselves.

VOTE: BlueTrin

If it wasn't clear; this is a PoE vote.

You probably want to explain a bit more ? I am fine getting lynched if that helps the town, but I need some reassurance that your process is sound and that you are not scum yourself.

Town: Dwlee99, Drixx, Clumsy

Unsure: Ice, KainTepes, BlueTrin

KainTepes is not partners with Ice

Conclusion: BlueTrin is confirmed mafia.

I am fine dying if the majority of the people here believe that it will help the accuracy of the reads.

You ll obviously have to re evaluate the accuracy of your reads after I flip town, but if we win that's no issue.

[BlueTrin]

In a vacuum I'm not sure how I'd read that and I really try not to confbias but since I've PoE'd you it's bad scum wifom.

To be frank, I do not care much about your opinion. Let me know if it good for town, make a good case and let's flip me.

[BlueTrin]

I ll put ice at L-1

VOTE: Ice

KT is already voting ice, do not put him at T-1 if KT is not voting him already.

[BlueTrin]

I think that out of your lynch pool, the one I'm most sure of is KainTepes. Ice³ is going to end up getting replaced I think.

How do you read KT ? He is pretty much posting nonsense. Aside from looking who he is pushing and voting more than others ?

[BlueTrin]

My next thought (I will have several more posts incoming, doing this while I have time before work tomorrow) is why was Bitten killed? They were at least somewhat under suspicion unlike some, like me and Drixx and Nahdia, and they were almost/somewhat lurking. I'm trying to think why scum would do this. First thought is looking for PRs. Quiet, but not completely absent like Ice, they could have thought that they were hiding out to avoid being picked by mafia. Or perhaps they were looking at someone and they wanted to silence them/implicate their target. Ice was who they were voting against. So either Ice is mafia, or mafia believes Ice would make good lynch bait. Which is true, unfortunately.

@Nahdia: Not to go conf bias (again), but just to thoroughly explore things: if he was called out as scummy for that, as scum, wouldn't he change what he's doing to appear towny? You might think town would do the same thing, but look at PC. He didn't change even when we were threatening to hang him and were dead-lining it. And in my last game I was practically a building with how sure people thought I was town. It also seems like (though it might be a stretch) to set me up for looking bad for a possible mislynch a day or two later with post 622 and the whole "trying to move the vote" thing. Although, if he was scum, he would know that the flip would be town, and negate what he was saying... meh, I don't know. I'm just going on thought process at this point. I'm going to stop before I ramble anymore.

P-edit: Oh no, I wasn't saying that it was bad. It's just what you do. You are making a lot of content, and I appreciate that. And I feel bad for not generating much early on, and I'm trying to make up for it now. I've had much less time than with my last game. Sorry. :/

My opinion is as well that scum believed that Bitten was a PR due to her lack of content.

She hasn't have had any strong opinions which would make her a lynch target otherwise.

[BlueTrin]

Nahdia, I'll reply later in more details but I find your posts about me quite annoying.

I think you suffer from a huge confirmation bias.

I'll repeat again: if you want to lynch me, make a case and we will all discuss, I am not more important than anyone else. I know I am town obviously but you cannot know.

There are cases where it is beneficial to flip someone when there more power roles: I know this is unlikely to be the case that you can get a lot of information from flipping me, this is why I invite you to make a case. Because your case is weak: you claim that only KT, Ice and myself can be scum then you will just death tunnel me because you set the probabilities for Drixx and Clumsy to be town at 100%.

If you make a case against me, I want you to make a better case than just say that it is a PoE however.

Your point about me teaming with KT because I find him unreadable is ridiculous, I would not make something so obvious, again confirmation bias, this is why I don't want to fight you: you already have decided. However this is a free forum, so feel free to make a proper case against me with scenarios and your associations and quotes to backup your claims.

I will make a summary of my reads this weekend.

[BlueTrin]

About KT I find that it is easy for him to just play around and fool around to look like he is not associated with anyone. If he was scum he would probably vote everyone just to make sure he cannot be read.

[BlueTrin]

Take your own advice and cut your crap, I told you yesterday to be quiet or make a case, you didn't. I told you today to make a case against me and you didn't.

Just do something concrete, you are doing exactly what you accuse me off, constantly trying to discredit me and put me with KT and Ice3.

If you thought PC was town why not have taken my offer to switch the votes, why did you stay silent until Clumsy called your name ? Why were you so defensive yesterday ? Your constant sniping at me doesn't sit well with me.

[BlueTrin]

Also take my offer: make a good case why flipping me will make the town win, if you can I'll flip myself. I don't care about your opinion, I care only about winning this game. Make your case and explain in details with points how we will win and why the other alternatives are unlikely.

[BlueTrin]

Don't mind the bad AtE, KainTepes

Here that continues, more mudslinging.

[BlueTrin]

I call it like I see it dude. You're straight up AtE'ing right now. Not that town can't AtE, but scum do it just as much as town.

I don't care if you believe if I am scum or town, the constant sniping at every action I do by reading it as scummy is tiring.

Do something about it and create a wagon on me ! Why are you so inactive if you believe that I am scum ! You are either scum or you are seeing things I don't understand.

Whether it is me or Clumsy, we were wary about Drixx and I am sure that clumsy would consider you potentially Scum: you, you just focus on my since d1. No matter what I say I get a snippy comment about how scummy it is. and yesterday when you appeared after Clumsy called you and I thought you were lurking you suddenly defend yourself by calling me names and shutting me off. Then call it a reaction test.

If you are town, I'll be really annoyed. If you are not, then I guess it kind of works since I am the only annoyed getting pissed off.

[BlueTrin]

DONT BE ANGRY GUYS!!!!!!! IT IS JUST A GAME,, WE CAN ALL BE FRIENDS,, EVEN IF YOU MAY BE AN EVIL PLAYER IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT

Um KT giving advice and even sensible advice ... This is definitely surreal.

[BlueTrin]

First of all, this is exactly what I would have preferred myself, because we can discuss with what you posted.
I will unvote Ice, because if you are town, you believe that Ice is not scum and also if you are scum you know that Ice is not scum and this is a trap for me.
UNVOTE: Ice

dang guys it's been 16 hours since BlueTrin has posted, CLEARLY HE'S LURKING AND THEREFORE IS SCUM LET'S ALL VOTE HIM.

see how fucking stupid that sounds?

Other players have not been lurking for 16 hours, they post barely once every 2 days just to not be prodded. Nice Straw man, it just makes you sound fucking stupid to use your own expressions.
It does not make scum, but how can I read someone who does not post ?

Maybe, you would have considered making this point when I asked you your opinion in D1 and start a new wagon ?

---

Some observations from BlueTrin's ISO:

BT seems to really come into the game around 303 where he townreads me and scumreads Dwlee, then votes him. Notably he also lists PC as null. Also he borrows from my points (from his own admission) and straight-up appeals to me at the end of the post

(Nahdia, you will notice that this is very similar to Clumsy's list, but I am not gonna lie just to look different, should I ?)

Post 334 BT says he doesn't like PC's style and that he's seen PC get lynched as town for playing like this. So if he is meta-reading he should have PC as town or null (which he does at this point).

334 is not mine, but if you are talking about 303, I read PC as null.

I wanted to hear more from him and his reaction was weird. At this point, I would have liked you to tell me you thought he was town when you made your reaction test, if you wanted to have switched vote, I would have done so with you as I said many times at the end of D1. Unlike you, I am unsure of my reads.

It is only when I started reading more games from PC that I noticed that his town play is actually more silent than his scummy play and this was a bit before the hammer.

Go through the first game we played with him (and Clumsy), I can't remember him being pressured to L-1 in that game, well not at least when I played, so I could not know that his normal reaction would be to just continue trolling.

---

335, 370, and 372 all seem to cement BT's scumread on Dwlee since he's pointing out scummy stuff Dwlee is doing. But then he inexplicably extends a branch for Dwlee and switches his vote

OFF HIS SCUMREAD AND SHEEPS HIS NULLREAD TO VOTE PC

. Seriously, there's no exaggeration there. There isn't like, a 100 post skip or a day of absence for him to think over. This is in post 375,

six minutes

after he was just pushing Dwlee.

I point out in 397 I'm having trouble following BT's logic. BT says that PC played the exact same way last game he played with him and was lynched as town in lylo. He then says

I would like him to speak more, but I suspect he just won't.

So in summary BT sheeping his scumread to apply pressure to someone that, by meta, he should be townreading (and he has previous said is null) even though

he thinks PC won't respond to the pressure anyway.

I didn't say that he played the exact same way, I just said that he does not post much so I couldn't tell if he was scum or town, I wanted to pressure him into talking then I didn't like his reaction at first.

Then when Clumsy asked me to read his ISO, I went through a few of his games, took me forever to just read 5 of his games. Then I noticed that in his early games he used to talk more when he was scummy. I didn't find a recent scummy game from PC to compare before he was hammered though.

402 BT promises to rethink his vote. Actions speak louder than words though; he never rethinks. Easily just scum trying to appear to have a town mindset. In post 430 he again says he'll rethink tomorrow.

I didn't like his reaction at the time, I don't think anybody but you thought he was town, he didn't post any info, even though he was voted in advance of the evening.

---

409 Claims Ice scumslipped (doesn't push on it at all though). I don't know about here but back on EM, trying to assert something is a scumslip that isn't necessarily was a really reliable scumtell. I really don't see how what Ice said was a scumslip at all. Could be either alignment based on it easily.

This is my post below, I even say myself this is possibly not a scum slip but naive wording. Again, you choose to read things only so they fit your frame.

Meant to post some text there, anyway, that's the only post having to do with ice. Pre-flip associations are meh but there is some things that point to an ice and phantom scum team.

Tbh I made this account and this is my first full game can a scum vote for another scum?

Note: This message is completely unrelated to the game at hand

I missed that post on my first read of the page.

Ice, sorry but I'll be frank with you: this really sounds like a really bad scum slip ? Although, it is so naive that I wonder whether it is really one.

---

419 BT warns people of AtE, which is notable because today when I called him out for AtE he accused me of mud slinging.

I wan't the one causing a scene just before the hammer of D1.
I found this confusion you created at the end of D1 really annoying, the worst part is that you claim it was a reaction test and refused to give your opinion on who we should vote, but just kept calling me names.

490 BT has now completely abandoned his scumread on Dwlee and is "ready to hammer PC or Ice" (the two lurkers). I also want to point out there's a lot of appeasement coming from him in this post (saying he agrees with another player or commending someone's good points is often subtle pocketing).

So you didn't think that Dwlee changed his attitude when pressured and sounded actually town after being pushed a bit ?

I found Dwlee exchange with Drixx quite convincing. At this point I wasn't sure, I would have liked to have guidance from you since you sounded like you had a problem with me changing my vote.
I find your attitude strange, you keep saying that my decisions are bad but you never lift a finger and do anything.

---

In his next few posts, 499 & 505 he starts to hurry people along and treats the vote as locked. But then in 519 BT says (while appealing to Clumsy..?) he's doubting the lynch. But in the very same post he's talking about PC's flip as if it's an inevitability. 522 shows impatience for the day to end.

These are posts at the end of D1. Do I consider this as locked ?

Honestly, PC isn't my number one vote right now. Unfortunately, like our last game, it's going to be hard for us to believe him on things. It may just be the way he plays. But I would hate for us to get into LYLO again like the last game. Feel the same kind of thing about Kain as well. I do think there are better lynches, but unless we can come to a concensus in the next 4 hours, I'll hammer. Better than no lynch.

We can get the consensus, we are 5. I don't want it to be like when we lynched BBT.

Speak your mind now, if you want us to vote.

I even ask your opinion:

HELLLOOOO!!!

why voting BLUETRIN, he seems like most TOWNIE person in this game, i want lynch DWLEE or ICE OR PC

Shut the hell up dude I'm this close to marking you as scum with him for your ridiculous trolling for claims.

Just speak your mind, even if you want to lynch me, if you believe PC is town, now is the moment to speak.

Well I get a bit annoyed by your tone, but I still try to want to have an alternative.
Btw, it was quite distracting to have to read your posts AND to have to read some of PCs previous games after coming back from work.

Inclined to believe PC is town because of the dismal vote BlueTrin placed on him AND HAS STILL REFUSED TO REVIEW DESPITE IT BEING A WAGON LED BY HIS SCUMREAD. "Pressure" my ass. He's responded to the damn pressure dude and you haven't given a single reason you're lynching him.

Propose another wagon now then, you are making so much noise, get something going then.
We have the people to change the vote if you want.

Phantom refuse to claim, refuse to give his reads and gave weird questions to Drixx.
At the moment, I could vote for Ice if we can agree for that.
I am going through PC games and in his two first games on the site he was more talkative. The first time he was scum he actually defended himself.
I am trying to go through more recent games to see if he changed his gameplay.

I got it you don't like me, what about you do something instead of bitching around ? (sorry for being rude but you are starting to get on my nerves with your foul language)

Inclined to believe PC is town because of the dismal vote BlueTrin placed on him AND HAS STILL REFUSED TO REVIEW DESPITE IT BEING A WAGON LED BY HIS SCUMREAD. "Pressure" my ass. He's responded to the damn pressure dude and you haven't given a single reason you're lynching him.

Also do you consider PC reaction quite townie yourself ?

Would you have reacted the same way ?

Hmmm... what could possibly be your motivation behind asking me this?

So why wouldn't you just answer the questions so we can get a better decision ?

Your immediate reaction is: why is BT suspecting me ? I do not know if you are town, but you seem to put your own safety before lynching the right person.

I can continue with other posts in D1, this sounds like I am really considered that the vote is locked (no I am not):

Inclined to believe PC is town because of the dismal vote BlueTrin placed on him AND HAS STILL REFUSED TO REVIEW DESPITE IT BEING A WAGON LED BY HIS SCUMREAD. "Pressure" my ass. He's responded to the damn pressure dude and you haven't given a single reason you're lynching him.

Also do you consider PC reaction quite townie yourself ?

Would you have reacted the same way ?

Hmmm... what could possibly be your motivation behind asking me this?

Because we are trying to get the right lynch tonight. You implied that PC showed resistance under pressure and that he must be town. So who is next if we don't vote PC ?

Seriously I have been asking the whole page to organise something because you were unhappy about how I handled PC. So name someone, I will follow blindly if we can get a lynch, even on myself as my flip will help. So show me how it is done.

Also the more I go through PC ISO the more doubts I have, because he is just ... unpredictable. I have a bias against him, because in Lylo he will make us lose if he is town. But the same can be said of KT and Ice.

Do I need to continue ?

In 528 I voice a budding scumread on BT. BT's

immediate

reaction in 529 is to scumread me. But he also backtracks in the very same post by saying he's not sure if the scumtell he's using is valid. Very half-hearted, non-committal scumread. In post 533 BT claims he has always scumread me. This is inconsistent with post 303; he had me as town there. And since then he hasn't voiced a single concern with me and has even appealed to me/commended my points.

I go on the point out that BT still hasn't reviewed his vote, which is a sheep of his scumread's scumread, after I myself have asked him multiple times to reassert it. Note that back in 519 BT said he wasn't sure on PC, but now in 556 he's starts giving me reasons which all boil down to "isn't giving content". Which again, was his original reason for voting; to force PC to respond. But BT by his own admission has played a game with PC where PC played just like this and he was town. So why is he so ready to hammer PC here????

Post 567 is weird and I have trouble seeing the town motivation. He says he'll blindly sheep me if I have an alternative wagon, even if it's on himself. Putting aside whether saying you're willing to be lynched is scummy or not (I think it is), he's essentially trying to decline any responsibility for the vote. 599 is more of this "you take all the responsibility" crap.

I didn't want the day to end on a no lynch and I didn't know what to do, so I wanted some advice from you, since you were making so much noise, why didn't you ask me to move my vote on your best scum read ?
Are we not trying to find scum ? What's the point of not telling your opinion if you don't believe PC is scum !
This is what I find annoying with you. If you want something to be done, then get it done, what's wrong with that ?

The only thing I wanted to avoid is a no lynch. If that would have happened, I think you would have been all over me for making people switching votes before the deadline, isn't it ?

You come, say that I am idiot for voting PC and refuse to give your opinion about who we should vote ? Are you always so obtuse ? It is easy to criticise, come with solutions and alternatives, not just bitching around, it does not help anything.

---

615 he asks me to read a KT post. When I say it's null, he says in 617 that he may of read too much into it. In other words, he had a read on it which he didn't share and again puts all the responsibility on me. The fact that he had a strong read on a KT post is also really important because back in 303 and then way later on in post 775 he asserts Kain is unreadable. Major inconsistency here.

It is funny you treat this as an inconsitency, my opinion changes, the only people who know who is scum are the scum themselves.
If you don't reassert your opinions then we might as well stop at D1 and just blindly vote from there.
The only thing I would check in KT is who he has not put to L-1 or hammered if I thought he was scum. His posting style makes it too easy to fake posts. He can literally post 5 votes on different people and nobody will listen to him, this is why I wouldn't read too much on every of his posts.

---

Post 626 is out of character; BT defends me here randomly. Appeasement.

This is the post that Nahdia, mentioned. I just dislike things that are incorrect, obviously for you this must be a BT is scum post, cannot be that I was trying to correct the other person. If I was correcting you, I would get a Nahdia's "BT is tring to frame me", isn't it ?

I read your post and I agree, with all points.

PEDIT: As Nahdia said she never tried to hammer him. The worst you could accuse her of, is to try to sway me from lynching him, but that is probably based on the way it was handled rather than the substance of the lynch.

---

In summary for d1; BT sheeps his scumread's vote despite meta telling him PC is town. He promises to rethink his vote but after being poked multiple times to do so his reasons boil down to his original reason for voting all of which he said on multiple occasions were things PC had done before as town. Really really inconsistent. I'd really like to know how exactly BT's read on Dwlee evolved here because there's absolutely 0 logical progression I'm following.

Day 2 really hasn't been any better for him. Despite what's going on around him he's taken 0 stances on the proposed lynches. 776 is a scumtell from my playbook; giving "proposed" logic from the kill.

PC didn't convince me. I only doubted a bit after reading his past games when Clumsy told me to do so.
In particular, I had no meta from D1 to compare with because: I don't remember him being pressured in the previous game, so I was expecting him to react more when voted.

Do you think Dwlee is scum ? Do you think I was wrong to not listen to his exchange with Drixx because this is what you are accusing me of.
Did you miss the long exchange with Drixx, did you not find this convincing ?

---

The major inconsistency from BT today though is, again, his vote. He's voting Ice, the guy who has lurked excessively.

HOWEVER

, when I've scumread him, his defense is that I need to create an argument that explains why his flip will give us information allowing us to win the game as town. FLIPPING ICE AS OUR LYNCH GIVES US THE MINIMUM POSSIBLE INFORMATION.

Huge

inconsistency between the way he's playing on offense and the way he's playing on defense. His Ice vote is poor; I've looked and he's never once given a reason for the vote. Is it just another vote to hope the pressure gets someone to post? That's exactly the excuse he used yesterday to lynch town and he really hasn't rethought?

Posts 779, 800, 806 all subtly paint me as scum (in particular "If you are town, I'll be really annoyed"). Post 793 however actually paints me as town; for someone to suffer confirmation bias they need to be town since scum obviously knows they're full of crap. Even so, if he does scumread me, he's continuing to vote for Ice, the "easy" lynch target and the person who gives us the very least information (NOTE: The Bitten flip is actually similar in this regard), despite having no reasoning behind the vote. His motivations aren't to lynch scum; they're the make the best possible lynches FOR scum.

It annoyed me that I was wrong on PC, I am really doubting my abilities to find scum in this game. I didn't like PC reaction, I would have defended myself: I find it strange that town does not defend themselves ? Maybe I am used to different types of players but this is a bit crap if people don't even reply with their reads when they are town and about to be lynched.

Also, I told you already, I don't like your reactions, I think you were actually doing what you accuse me of and prepare me for a d2 lynch. It may be a coincidence that you logged in right after Clumsy asked for your opinion and ignored all the other posts before, but that seems a bit too much of a coincidence.

I am not sure whether you believe in what you are posting (i.e. are you doing this because you are scum or because you really scum read me).

If it is the former, the best thing for me is to get lynched while making my case on you for when I will flip town.

I don't understand why you think I should have unvoted when you propose no alternative.
I don't understand why you think I should not have been convinced by Dwlee.
I don't understand why your had this reaction test right before the end of D1 instead of taking my offer to move my vote when we could have changed our votes.

The fact that you chose to read all of the above to frame your scum reads instead of wondering whether I am scum makes me believe you are scum, this is why I will put my vote on you, I don't believe this is a town vs town fight.
VOTE: Nahdia

Whether I get lynched or NKed, it is fine with me, get Nahdia after I flip.

[BlueTrin]

335, 370, and 372 all seem to cement BT's scumread on Dwlee since he's pointing out scummy stuff Dwlee is doing. But then he inexplicably extends a branch for Dwlee and switches his vote

OFF HIS SCUMREAD AND SHEEPS HIS NULLREAD TO VOTE PC

. Seriously, there's no exaggeration there. There isn't like, a 100 post skip or a day of absence for him to think over. This is in post 375,

six minutes

after he was just pushing Dwlee.

Clarification here since I typo'd; he switches his vote off his scumread and ends up sheeping said scumread to vote his nullread; PC.

Sorry I didn't include this correction in my reply.

[BlueTrin]

Yes, that's the kind of post we need. I read over it but I'll do so more in depth later after my game tonight (or tomorrow). In the meantime, Blue, a full response to all of this would be nice.

Also, as a note, the game that keeps being mentioned with PC, was my only other game here. Zar show, can find it on my profile. Blue, PC, and myself were all in that game if you would like to read on that. Unfortunately, we killed Blue pretty early so I didn't get much interaction there. But the meta read part of your argument is a really good point Nahdia. What was the logic there Blue?

I still don't know how to classify Ice and Kain. I want to think Ice is town, because that much pressure to be active and that's the main gripe? Scum would just post more. That's my reasoning there.

That's the link to the game.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=64996

Maybe I am wrong, I didn't read the whole thing but I don't remember us pressuring PC to L-1.

[BlueTrin]

I didn't even read those. LOL

You should. It will give you a chance to evaluate two players for the price of reading 1 really long posts and two smaller posts. Like ... evaluate really thoroughly. I almost never get that much insight all at once into players in newbie games. It usually requires the sort of back and forth you and I had to get down to someone's thought process and get a genuine read on whether they're legit working things out or just pretending.

Please put your vote, we are going in circles.

KT, can you refrain from a lol hammer this time and give your intent if you want to lynch me ?

[BlueTrin]

I assumed that Kitty had the right count.
Sometimes life is that simple.

---

Please hammer because we need my flip, if I don't get flipped today, I will be an easy target tomorrow.

---

Now look at this:

• Nahdia refused to change the lynch yesterday
  
• She accused me of mudslinging to shut me up and continue to tunnel me
  
• She is quick to point out that I voted Ice today but did nothing to stop the PC lynch the day before
  
• She never really questioned Drixx or Clumsy so she can get an easy target for today as she presents me as the only one who could bring information by being flipped

If she really wanted to help the town why wouldn't she take my offer yesterday to change the wagon on me ?
She said she wouldn't do a deal with the enemy, this is bullshit, I would take anything if it makes me reach me goal: the best excuse for D1 should have been "I didn't because I couldn't get 5 votes on you, BT", this I would have believed.
All of this was to frame me for today, I suspect she was expecting me to fight a bit more, this is why she finds my attitude so weird, because she does not have the opportunity to put more mud like when she did this fake reaction test.

You will be in Lylo the next day, and Nahdia will keep the weakest links in the game, Ice and KT.

Something is wrong, someone between Nahdai, Drixx and Clumsy is scum. My gut is Nahdia is scum because she is a much better player than this and she chose to interpret all the quotes above as scum.

The weird reaction test on D1, hours before lynch, the refusal to change the wagon, all of her behaviour is weird to me. If Nahdia was town and accepted my offer to get my lynch yesterday we would have saved one day, but she didn't and waited one more day.

Why me ? I am the weakest link who is still suspicious of everyone, DWlee is just sheeping and not posting, KT isn't trusted I think by anyone, I made a mistake on PC and she will use any of my actions to frame me as the bad guy, keeping Ice and KT for the Lylo.

No doubt that Nahdia will remind me how it worked out with KT, but look at who brought PC at L-1 and who hammered it. Why isn't Nahdia mentioning any of is ? Why is she pushing for a lynch at the beginning of D1.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt
L-1
Heaven help me.

Crocodile tears for this post. This will probably nominated for the worst audition at the Oscars .

---

Also this pings me:

I'm going to give BlueTrin a chance to respond again before I vote him; however, I'm not sure what he could say that would change my mind. The biggest thing that I got from Nahdia's analysis and BlueTrin's response is that I can see how BlueTrin's play has been a story... a narrative. Scum tell a story to try and blend in while town just look for scum and aren't as concerned about getting their "story" straight. I see an awful lot of story highlighted in the interactions.

Clumsy, read this post from GM in our first game about consistency, this seems to contradict Drixx.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7582918

Maybe they just have different viewpoint, but this pinged me.

---

Be wary of Nahdia's actions tomorrow, I really think she is scum who deliberately tried to cast me away, I think she wanted me to fight more so it would have looked like a Town vs Town fight, that would explain her tone.

---

Feel free to hammer, I think there is nothing to gain anymore.

[BlueTrin]

I am VT, I am about to be lynched so what's the point. You'll see it yourself when KittyMo post the end of day.

[BlueTrin]

I see you flippin' red tbh

I can hammer myself unless you guys want to use the day.

[BlueTrin]

if you're scum you should self-hammer

This is why I would prefer someone to hammer me, just so Nahdia won't jump again to discredit me going into the next day.

[BlueTrin]

I assumed that Kitty had the right count.
Sometimes life is that simple.

---

Please hammer because we need my flip, if I don't get flipped today, I will be an easy target tomorrow.

---

Now look at this:

• Nahdia refused to change the lynch yesterday
  
• She accused me of mudslinging to shut me up and continue to tunnel me
  
• She is quick to point out that I voted Ice today but did nothing to stop the PC lynch the day before
  
• She never really questioned Drixx or Clumsy so she can get an easy target for today as she presents me as the only one who could bring information by being flipped

If she really wanted to help the town why wouldn't she take my offer yesterday to change the wagon on me ?
She said she wouldn't do a deal with the enemy, this is bullshit, I would take anything if it makes me reach me goal: the best excuse for D1 should have been "I didn't because I couldn't get 5 votes on you, BT", this I would have believed.
All of this was to frame me for today, I suspect she was expecting me to fight a bit more, this is why she finds my attitude so weird, because she does not have the opportunity to put more mud like when she did this fake reaction test.

You will be in Lylo the next day, and Nahdia will keep the weakest links in the game, Ice and KT.

Something is wrong, someone between Nahdai, Drixx and Clumsy is scum. My gut is Nahdia is scum because she is a much better player than this and she chose to interpret all the quotes above as scum.

The weird reaction test on D1, hours before lynch, the refusal to change the wagon, all of her behaviour is weird to me. If Nahdia was town and accepted my offer to get my lynch yesterday we would have saved one day, but she didn't and waited one more day.

Why me ? I am the weakest link who is still suspicious of everyone, DWlee is just sheeping and not posting, KT isn't trusted I think by anyone, I made a mistake on PC and she will use any of my actions to frame me as the bad guy, keeping Ice and KT for the Lylo.

No doubt that Nahdia will remind me how it worked out with KT, but look at who brought PC at L-1 and who hammered it. Why isn't Nahdia mentioning any of is ? Why is she pushing for a lynch at the beginning of D1.

VOTE: PhantomCobalt
L-1
Heaven help me.

Crocodile tears for this post. This will probably nominated for the worst audition at the Oscars .

---

Also this pings me:

I'm going to give BlueTrin a chance to respond again before I vote him; however, I'm not sure what he could say that would change my mind. The biggest thing that I got from Nahdia's analysis and BlueTrin's response is that I can see how BlueTrin's play has been a story... a narrative. Scum tell a story to try and blend in while town just look for scum and aren't as concerned about getting their "story" straight. I see an awful lot of story highlighted in the interactions.

Clumsy, read this post from GM in our first game about consistency, this seems to contradict Drixx.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7582918

Maybe they just have different viewpoint, but this pinged me.

---

Be wary of Nahdia's actions tomorrow, I really think she is scum who deliberately tried to cast me away, I think she wanted me to fight more so it would have looked like a Town vs Town fight, that would explain her tone.

---

Feel free to hammer, I think there is nothing to gain anymore.

[BlueTrin]

if you flip town nahdia can't discredit you lmao

I find you refreshingly naive: of course she can.

First discredit the person: BlueTrin was an idiot and made poor decisions.
Second blame the situation, she said it was PoE, except the three people were chosen to frame what she wanted to say
Third, now say that you should target Ice or Dwlee because they are scummy and it is Lylo.

She needs only 1 bad vote to quick hammer after today.

[BlueTrin]

Where's Drixx when I need him ?

[BlueTrin]

I just want to be flipped, I think Nahdia has set me up and expected to get away with it the next day. You gave your intent to hammer so I am waiting now.

[BlueTrin]

[BlueTrin]

Using Ranger notation

+SCUM+
Nahdia, Ice
Dwlee
Drixx, KainTepes
Clumsy
{}
+TOWN+

Based on gut feeling from the last interactions.
Can't tell if Drixx is town or scum manipulating us.

Dwlee and Ice changed their vote on me easily this is why I rate them scummy. Even though I find Ice scummy, I doubt he can be scum with Nahdia, and I think I have been framed by Nahdia to look like the perfect villain, so Ice may be town ?

Don't know why I put Clumsy town when I think about it, there were not much interaction from him in the past days and he waited aside without giving an opinion.

It's bedtime here so this is my last post, typing this from a phone in bed.

[BlueTrin]

this is bs and your explanation is shit

Really ? These are a few posts from last page.

I didn't even read those. LOL

I wanna do this ~
VOTE: Kain

Actually regarding the change of read from scum to sheeping me in that short time:
VOTE: Bluetrin

[BlueTrin]

Yeah you didn't play the good boy for very long.

[BlueTrin]

KittyMo, I think you did well to contact the list mods, I think the best is just to refuse him in new games.

I kind of thought that Nahdia/Drixx was probable. We got two mislynches in a row, this indicated that scum control the game. But I could have thought that Nahdia/Dwlee was possible.

[BlueTrin]

Can I have my critique too ?

[BlueTrin]

I will take the time and give you both a critique within 24 hours.

Thanks,there is no rush for mine, just do it whenever you have some time.