Newbie 1724 ~ Endgame

[frog]

@frog, you ever play at SC2?

Is that StarCraft II? No, I've never played it.

Vote: PkmSilver

Gold was better.

[frog]

Thor is already taking the lead in this game. I expected this, but didn't expect Thor to be so strong against a single person. Don't know that I like that as it can choke the content people might offer and possibly create a dynamic where no one thinks except Thor and the rest of Town doesn't know what to do so they just follow what seems easy. That said, its still really early in the game.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other. What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote. For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

@Impoetic: why is hesitation, in this instance, scummy?

[frog]

That might not be the case - the vote in LicketyQuickety's post is within a failed quotation. It might count, but it isn't deliberate.

[frog]

I believe it is no longer the best idea.

For clarity - since I had to quest for the answer.

Okay, now that we have established that voting early isn't an issue.
Can you explain again why me being intentionally the second vote on someone makes me more likely to be scum?

This is simple:
Scum knows who scum, therefore, they know who is not.

This is true, but why does that relate at all to beginning a wagon on somebody?

[frog]

Scumhunting is taking an offensive mindset. You're trying to find scum, actively. If you find a tell you believe in, brushing it off as a coincidence makes me think you don't really care who gets lynched as long as you look like you're scumhunting. Also, his reasoning didn't seem thought-out -- look at the first post and tell me how he got from that to the other conclusion and why the concept of voting for a reason had to be explained to him -- which further supports my conclusion.

I am not aware of any towny reason not to vote over a suspicion early on in the game; it generates more conflict, which in turn means more to read off of. It's scummy to shy away from conflict imo.

Nothing you've said here is wrong, but I'm wondering if you can't think of any other explanations for hesitancy and confusion on the first page of a Newbie game?

[frog]

No, I'd just like to hear why he believes his interpretation to be more likely than the other possible ones (and the one I hold).

It's coincidence in the same sense that your vote on PkmSilver was coincidence - I am hoping to do something with it.

[frog]

In other words, it could be town, but what makes you think it's more likely or equally as likely to be so?

Sorry for the double-post.

I view his inconsistency as stemming fundamentally from an unfamiliarity with how mafia is played on this site. The points raised against him by Thor and Dewy I find to be quite a stretch, sometimes bordering on misrepresentation. I could elaborate, but it would do us more good to hear more from GreenNope himself.

Also, it's fine and pretty common to double and triple post, so by all means do that if it makes your posts easier to follow.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?

You asked that question to PkmSilver, not LicketyQuickety.

[frog]

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

Would you mind explaining this? In particular, do you agree or disagree with the following:

1) Randomly voting someone is common, if not usual and expected, on mafiascum, on the first few pages of Day 1
2) Scumreading someone based entirely on them starting the first wagon is an not a viable way of approaching the game
3) Voting someone when you suspect them to be scum, excepting occasions such as them having claimed or being at L-1, is the best thing to do
4) The inconsistency that GreenNope has displayed has led to them being scumread by a handful of players
5) This is not optimal play for town or scum and is also easily corrected
6) Whether GreenNope is town or scum, they will be unlikely to repeat this behaviour in subsequent games, whether they are town or scum
7) That Thor can be actively scumhunting and educating at the same time, and does not need to respond to a post not addressed to him, as indeed he did not?

What were you hoping to do?

Several things, really; by challenging the wagon I thought I'd see who was on it by genuine conviction and who was just trying to get towncred by adding pressure to an ostensibly scummy slot without contributing anything of their own. On the off chance that GreenNope becomes today's lynch and flips town, a few alternative points here and there prevents the mafia from furthering the line 'they were too scummy to be scum' on Day 2, which would be counter-productive for our understanding of what had happened.
I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that) I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

We're going to be disagreeing with each other for the rest of this game, I think. I find new players to be the most erratic precisely for the reasons you have given; they are coming with a diversity of levels of knowledge, personalities, and playstyles, some influenced by playing mafia IRL or on other websites, such that any attempt to create a universal scumtell for them is inevitably frustrated.

[frog]

Those two parts of my post are responding to two different people over different parts of the game, as is pretty apparent by even a cursory glance of what I wrote. And, yes, I think you are missing something: point 7, perhaps?

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you read as town, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

[frog]

Those two parts of my post are responding to two different people over different parts of the game, as is pretty apparent by even a cursory glance of what I wrote. And, yes, I think you are missing something: point 7, perhaps?

Yeah, didn't see point 7. Its why I have a Scummy meta and as such why I play a lot of Newbie games. Do it for the practice. My problem with what you said is that you made a point of saying that Thor was not voting someone who he was pushing specifically for the purpose of educating newbs.. by that logic, everything Thor does or does not do is educating the newbs which would make your comment that Thor was specifically not voting someone he was pushing to teach newbs something, something Thor never actually said he was doing a moot point. Perhaps you don't know how the role of IC works, but as I understand it, when there is a standard theory that the IC is trying to get across to do or not do, the IC will note it as such. That is at least how I would go about being the IC. Aside from that, there is much the IC will not say because they should understand that everyone's playstyle is a little different and part of these newbie games is figuring out what a newbies playstyle is going to be. In short, not everything the IC does is Mafia Law and as such, there is room for personal playstyle where players are just going to play differently. The role of the IC is not to hold everyone's hand through the game and let everyone know everything there is to know about this game in a single game.

Nowhere in the comment you're referring to is a vote mentioned, neither did I say that he was

specifically

educating new players, because doing that and exerting pressure are not exclusive. The context for the post was you being worried about Thor carrying the game and stifling content. Have you forgotten what you were talking about?

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you read as town, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

Uhmmm... I don't have to agree with everything a Town read says for them to be a Town read. I don't have to agree with anything they say for me to Town read them in theory. All I have to do is have rational for why that player is Town and I don't even provide that all the time for my Town reads. Scum reads are likewise - I don't have to disagree with everything they say or really anything as long as I have a basis for why that player is Scum. Admittedly, you need more backing for your Scum reads than your Town reads if you actually want to get your Scum reads lynched.

Aside from that, you just did something I specifically mentioned as being a Scum tell ie. being cryptic. IDK what Town read you are talking about or what was said that I disagreed with so you might want to point that out before I throw a serious vote in your direction.

And my system is very very far from rigid. I actually have one of the more flexible approaches to reading people on this forum on average. You are assuming that just because I have Specific Scum and Town tells for newbies means that this translates into how I read everyone and nothing could be further from the truth. This is inductive reasoning you are using when you say that so either you are really confused about how I play, or you are Scum.

I disagree that being cryptic is necessarily a scumtell, but, regardless, you shouldn't be having any problem with my remark; don't you know who your townreads are? Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?
If you have anything you can call a 'system' it is already, in my opinion, too rigid. I wouldn't push the 'inductive reasoning' stuff too far, by the way, because, to quote you, 'this is not a good look for you.'

[frog]

If you have a better method for catching scum on Day 1 than identifying lack of internal logic and lynching that player I would be happy to hear about it.

My issue isn't with the method, it's with the way you're going about putting it into practice. Taking the example of LicketyQuickety's misquote, I can't see what you were hoping to gain from that besides the opportunity for casting an unwarranted aspersion on a slot. I am concerned that you are trying to trip people up on things which are in no way alignment-indicative, and then using confusion or inconsistency as the pretext for scumreading or voting them. If you had picked people up over inconsistency surrounding votes and reads, we wouldn't be having this discussion; pressure over a lack of knowledge on how to play on the site, formatting mistakes, and not answering questions to which the person wasn't directed deserves being called out.

What did you get from challenging the wagon, what where you able to conclude from it?

Well, I quite liked Impoetic's response to the challenges because it showed a level of reflection about their vote that gave me the impression it was genuine and informed (at least on her own terms).

What is your stance [on Thor]? Are you playing the best of both sides?

I'm null-leaning-scum on Thor currently. My uncertainty stems from him conceding more than I think scum would concede, but this can lead into WIFOM. I have suspicions, but I need longer to confirm them. Luckily, it appears the game is going in a direction that will enable precisely that.

@LicketyQuickety: I would like an answer to the following:

Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?

@KittyMo: can we have prods on the two inactive players if they haven't already been sent out, please?

[frog]

Why do I have to know what Town read you are talking about in order for that to mean anything to me? Honestly, I don't really mind what my Town reads say as long as they are pushing Scum and remaining a Town read to me.

You don't. I was merely stating that another player (Impoetic, as you have lately noted) disagreed with your way of assessing how Newbies might play, how best to read them, and the like (see post #72 in particular). There was no reason to carry the discussion further; I said we'd disagree but was happy to not discuss it any more and leave you to your way of playing.

Here's why it is significant:

Anyways, Reads:

Town:
Impoetic

Town lean:
GreenNope

Null:
Thor
PKM
Hyped (hasn't posted)
Lis (hasn't posted)

Scum Lean:
Dewy
frog

You 'don't know what Town read

talking about', yet you have precisely one town read. I find it hard to believe that you would forget your only townread if your reads were genuine. Between that and your most recent post...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: LicketyQuickety

I will get to the rest of what has been posted tomorrow, as it is getting late over here.

[frog]

That's not going to stand.

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you

read as town

, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

IDK what

Town read

you are talking about or what was said that I disagreed with so you might want to point that out before I throw a serious vote in your direction.

Why do I have to know what

Town read

you are talking about in order for that to mean anything to me?

I made it very clear at the beginning that I was talking about a player you read as

town

, taking the distinction from your reads list, not one you had down as a town

lean

, and from all your subsequent remarks it is clear that you interpreted it in the same way. Giving you the benefit of the doubt for a second, your townlean was GreenNope, whose last post was #44, well before this discussion of how to play was brought up, whereas the bulk of Impoetic's posts came after that point (and these must have informed your read on her, right?). It is still inconceivable you would not be able to recall who I was talking about, unless your reads were not genuine.

[frog]

I am concerned that you are trying to trip people up on things which are in no way alignment-indicative, and then using confusion or inconsistency as the pretext for scumreading or voting them.

That would be a cruel way to describe my Day 1 scumhunting - so it is exactly what I'm doing, though I would describe it as "asking people multiple questions about their logic being used in the game in order to try to spot who is making unsanctioned leaps of logic on the presumption that scum are more likely to make an action on a strategic basis rather than actually thinking out their actions"
I can show many games (really all of them) to show this is how I scumhunt, and also show that I actively consider there to be a difference between bad logic and no logic and tend to vote accordingly.

I'm not sure I can accept this being a purely playstyle issue. If you could link me a game or two (preferably with the same or similar setup) where you lay the sorts of earlygame traps I'm having a problem with as town, then that would be a help.

If you had picked people up over inconsistency surrounding votes and reads, we wouldn't be having this discussion; pressure over a lack of knowledge on how to play on the site, formatting mistakes, and not answering questions to which the person wasn't directed deserves being called out.

I actively disagree - the value of what can or cannot be called out shifts througout the game, no more so than Day 1, and no more so then within the first days of the game. If someone isn't willing to call people out over small things, then it is impossible to start calling people out over reads - because otherwise reads don't exist.
I now have reads that can be assessed - because I am calling out small things.
Most players do not, because they have not - that makes my playstyle, to my mind, provably superior because I'm quickening the pace to the part of the game town can actually start using to scumhunt functionally.

Why do you disagree?

I think the things you were calling people out over were excessively small. Nine players (well, seven until recently) talking and interacting will inevitably produce significant events and meanings without the need for picking up on every little insignificant thing, and two weeks is long enough to form reads. The difficulty I have with your approach is that it allows scum (even if you are not scum) to sow confusion and, yes, to distract over potentially more significant parts of the game. I'm not saying that's been happening here, but it's why I picked up on what you were doing early. If I ruined some reactions for you, then sorry, but I don't feel they would have been all that useful anyway.

I'm null-leaning-scum on Thor currently. My uncertainty stems from him conceding more than I think scum would concede, but this can lead into WIFOM. I have suspicions, but I need longer to confirm them. Luckily, it appears the game is going in a direction that will enable precisely that.

I can assure you that is a poor value call on me - my playstyle as scum is (naturally) specifically designed to mirror how I play as town. As such, my town self argues logic on Day 1. Logic tends to be a black/white issue. When you point out something that is provably wrong, I'll naturally concede it because arguing provably wrong things is both dumb as well as being scummy - and I don't like to think of myself as dumb.

My personal advice for reading me is you need to get me deeper into the game for a legit read.
Some people advocate just a quick lynch for yucks.
Others go with the Thor read method.

Take your pick.
But if I wouldn't concede things as scum, I would be required to likewise never concede things as town, and despite some of my reputation, I don't actually even remotely claim to have all the answers or to be unfallible (oh for that to be true)

Can you show me any examples of concessions working as a scumtell for you?
Seems like a playstyle tell and never alignment indicative, but you appear to buy into it as a thing even while pointing out to me issues that you think I'm picking at alignment neutral issues. Just want to see you support your belief.

What I had in mind when I was talking about concessions was that you acknowledged the traps as traps, rather than just dismissing my claim as having no evidence (since this was an interpretative point, not something that could be proved), which was a perfectly viable option. I could see both town and scum doing the latter, but the former honestly looks town to me, which is where my confusion was coming from. Why would scum admit to doing something another player is attacking as scummy? But as I noted, this can lead into WIFOM, hence I was back to not having a solid read on you. And of course I'll get deeper into the game; you are neither a scumread of mine nor the person I want to sink more attention into right now. I will say this back-and-forth has been good, though.

[frog]

Reads list is a little overdue, thanks for reminding me.

Town
Impoetic: would be a stronger townread were it not for the strange vote on Hyped and then her unvote of Dewy. Her being scum in her own reads list is also strange. I'm convinced, however, that she was on the GreenNope wagon for good reasons and that she's being aware of other developments in the game. From her very first post she's been actively engaging with a variety of other players.
Zyf: only three posts, but a great entry into the game. Presents a reads list with some explanations and asks things of other players in the process.

Null
Thor: the reasons should be clear from recent interactions. Still null, but if he can deliver some meta then he's dealt with another thing I had him down as scummy for.
Dewy: I thought her earlier posts on GreenNope were very derivative, as were some of the questions she was asking. There's been the odd question that does a bit more than place people for them, such as post #135, but not enough to outweigh my concerns. Some of her answers have been a little deflect-y. Nothing strong enough to push them below the inactives or into scum, however.
PkmSilver: only two posts, and not a great deal in them for me to use.
GreenNope: I read his first page interactions as null, being more indicative of being new than being either town or scum. He haven't posted much besides that.
Hyped: no posts yet.

Scum
LicketyQuickety: the reasons should already be clear from my earlier posts.

@Dewy: can you explain a bit more as to why LicketyQuickety is in your town pile?

[frog]

Briefly, I thought he was making rather a lot out of confused players (and deliberately trying to confuse them) and casting unjustified aspersions earlier in the game, but a few of his recent actions led me to question that. My current read on him is probably best read as 'pending', since if he supplies meta then most of my arguments have been dealt with and what I saw as 'scummy' could retreat into 'playstyle'.

Some of Dewy's content is derivative in the sense that the observations she notes have already been noted, and some questions have asked whose answer fill in obvious omissions in the posts she quotes but don't add much to the game. I just haven't had the impression she's pushed an original line so far, instead going for the low-hanging fruit, possibly in an attempt to look busy.

P-edit: then do something about it!

[frog]

thanks, partner!

Alright, look, it might have had the potential to be funny the first time, but this 'joking' has worn really thin now and you're beginning to make me very paranoid about your slot. Stop.

[frog]

Briefly, I thought he was making rather a lot out of confused players (and deliberately trying to confuse them)

I feel I have been actively bending over *not* to cause confusion.
Can you show any point where it looks like I'm trying to confuse someone?

Yes, it

did

, when you accused LicketyQuickety of deliberately letting a potentially accidental vote stand, and of not answering a question he hadn't actually been asked, and arguably at the beginning of the game with GreenNope (i.e what has formed the basis for our conversation). But I have had a look through your meta, and you are right: you have behaved similarly as town in the past on Day 1, so I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt as to your motivations here.

P-edit: then do something about it!

What, you'd rather me push a lynch I don't believe in?

That was meant to be a supportive remark encouraging activity, not something accusing or aggressive, but I can see how you could interpret it that way. Of course I don't want you to push a lynch you don't believe in (unless you're scum, in which case, please let me catch you). Ask perceptive questions, re-read, look at interactions, whatever, I don't mind.

Null
Frog - Originally a townread but I'm clearly wrong on someone and you're backing off yourself as much as I am here so it's hard for me to reaffirm that you aren't the mafia.

I mean, I'm not sure what else I'm meant to do when the reasons for having suspicion on someone evaporate, but alright I guess

[frog]

PkmSilver, are you scum?

[frog]

@Frog
Thoughts on Pkm's reads?

I did see your request, but was going to hold off because he just said he'd write some more down. Looking at his reads post #172, there's not a lot to go on as there's no substance. I would like to hear more about Impoetic and Thor from them though.

[frog]

Jokes are fine but yours have centred around you claiming scum, which is bound to make people uneasy

[frog]

But there is absolutely no reason for jokes to be AI. Wifom in the way I would have to be doing it is absolutely useless and, if anything, suggesting possibilities that weren't otherwise there; as scum, I'd probably be scared people would change their reads on me. As town, I'm not. Hell, I was just thinking earlier that I wish I could be more involved in the action right now because I really don't know where to go from here.

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry so much. I think what you were doing earlier in the game was perfectly fine. You could have done something with your vote on Dewy, for instance, but you moved it a little too early. You're not currently remote from the game, either (or at least, I don't think you are). Just because one avenue gets shut down doesn't mean another won't open up.

[frog]

also I think that impoetic is leaning towards mafia

???

[frog]

Nothing was confusing about it, but it seemed you were trying to trip up LicketyQuickety over something that wasn't alignment indicative, and I couldn't see how any of their possible reactions could have been alignment indicative either. The second point was also that you accused him of not answering a question you hadn't actually asked him, not that he answered a question he wasn't asked (I agree with your assessment of the latter aspect of that post). But we're going in circles here, and I thought it was clear that I had looked into your meta, and you do what you've done here as town in other games. So, yes - I

did

(in italics, past tense) see you in that way, but I have now realised that my suspicion was unsupported.

P-edit: could you explain why, so the rest of us can follow?

[frog]

Why don't you want to start a "log" as opposed to waiting for one to happen?

I thought Impoetic was pretty clearly talking about a vote count, not a wagon (I don't know how you got wagon from 'log').
With respect to PkmSilver, I don't see your push on them being particularly aggressive. Is it just his reaction to this that marks him down as town for you?

I'm personally a bit concerned at his lack of involvement in the game so far, and if he doesn't answer my question on his reads then a vote's heading his way.

[frog]

oh now I get it fjgk.r'ew
qgh


thank you for standing up for me when I was too stupid to understand I was being gravely misinterpreted, froggie

Can you explain, with reference/comparison to another other reads list in this thread, what you find to be so objectionable about Harkonnen's?

[frog]

I'm trying to ignore it where it is extraneous

[frog]

also I think that impoetic is leaning towards mafia

???

Leaning = looking scummier than town, but now she is towntelling.

I was asking you to explain what had led you to reformulate your read on Impoetic.

[frog]

Impoetic has been quite active the whole game, not just recently, and was joking around in the gap between the post where you called her scum and the post where you read her as town. I'm still unclear as to why your read changed.

Where, precisely, has she been scumtelling/towntelling?

[frog]

Ok, but

why

[frog]

Ok, but

why

Why what? Why I town read her? She sounds townie(?)

Let's try a different angle. Do you understand what we are asking you?

[frog]

Why what? Why I town read her? She sounds townie(?)
Which part, exactly, sounded scummy tho?

At first the way she was talking looked scummy to me, but after a while her way of talking was more townie-looking. I think that's the mostly way I was scumreading her.

VOTE: pkmsilver
Start answering my and frog's questions, buddy

If, you don't realise I am only online in the mornings. Therefore I didn't answer his question until right now which i am doing

I am sorry I don't even know how to edit posts. FML

@everyone: is it seriously possible that PkmSilver still doesn't know what we're asking? I'm considering dropping a vote down at this point.

[frog]

The question wasn't rhetorical, by the way

[frog]

Well, as it happens, I do scumread LicketyQuickety.
Deliberate or not, having a slot that only offers unsubstantiated reads that change on a whim and never votes for anyone is clearly unsatisfactory, and I'm going to be eternally paranoid until he answers these questions or, failing that, flips.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PkmSilver

@PkmSilver: let me explain this clearly. I am voting you because you are not answering our questions properly. I will summarise them below, and offer clarification on each of them.

1) What are you current reads?
2) Why do you read players as you do (saying someone is town because their posts are 'towny' is not adequate; you have to tell us exactly why they look towny to you)?
3) Why have your earlier reads changed (saying you thought they were scum and now think they are town is not adequate; you have to tell us exactly when this change took place and why)?

To give an example: I think Zyf is town

because they are actively scumhunting and asking perceptive questions of other players.

What I want from you is the kind of logic in bold.

This is L-1. Do not hammer without first asking for a claim from PkmSilver and giving them a chance to respond.

[frog]

can we just

L-1

I've dealt with lolhammers from town, I don't want to deal with it again.

Quoting for the new page

[frog]

Why what? Why I town read her? She sounds townie(?)
Which part, exactly, sounded scummy tho?

At first the way she was talking looked scummy to me, but after a while her way of talking was more townie-looking. I think that's the mostly way I was scumreading her.

VOTE: pkmsilver
Start answering my and frog's questions, buddy

If, you don't realise I am only online in the mornings. Therefore I didn't answer his question until right now which i am doing

I am sorry I don't even know how to edit posts. FML

@everyone: is it seriously possible that PkmSilver still doesn't know what we're asking? I'm considering dropping a vote down at this point.

By the way, I had the same thought that Thor did; this doesn't seem like an alignment indicative problem. In my -- limited, non-forum-based -- mafia experience, it's rarely a good move to lynch someone over something that's incomprehensible as either alignment. When I don't understand someone's actions, they're

at least

as likely to be town as scum, if not more. What makes you think this could be a scum-indicative thing?

And I don't trust or understand all the votes dropped over his answers. I mean, this is probably because I'm so used to seeing people refusing to give any explanation for their reads and, when they do, just attributing them to "gut," but I kind of understand how he could be honestly giving these responses and I also think PKM is very new and should maybe be granted some more leniency.

That said, this is totally not a TR on PKM. I feel I should be careful with lynching the less competent and less active players, since those seem to be the easiest pushes for scum and the most likely defaults when we're failing to lynch mafia, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to lynch PKM if he remains the scummiest. I need to read lickety more though...

I'm not so sure it is non-alignment indicative. Fabricating reads is what scum have to do, and, since they are informed, their reads-forming process is different and less natural than town's. Making reads public and being able to see how they are formed is thus integral for town, and PkmSilver is being very unhelpful with this. There's nothing to suggest so far that his reads are genuine and evolving organically, and his evasion of question after question could well be an attempt to cover up how empty his reads are. If it's literally all gut, then he should have said it by now; if it isn't, then he should have answered any one of the dozen-odd questions on his reads. I even tried to change it around and ask him whether he understood what we were asking, but I got no response to that. There has been no indication so far that PkmSilver has put any thought into his reads, or that they are developing naturally, and I have been

patient

.

Let's assume for a moment that PkmSilver really doesn't get what we're talking about, and that he is truly incomprehensible. The difficulty with this is that almost all of PkmSilver's posts so far have been unsubstantiated reads, and as long as that continues (and there's little indication it's going to stop) it will be literally impossible to form a proper read on that slot. Thor has noted that this is far from being a great scum strategy, but this devolves into WIFOM (what if he's doing this so we'll think he's not scum?). Either PkmSilver is scum, unable to explain his fake reads, or he's oblivious to what we're asking of him and unwilling to allow us to develop a read on him. This is not a great choice, either way. Would you take PkmSilver into LyLo with you?

Pushing this slot until we get

something

is therefore of the utmost importance.

[frog]

So, just to confirm, the grand sum of what PkmSilver had to say was this:

I'm trying dude, and I am still fairly new and you guys are having hard time against me, I know this is a wifom but if you must lynch me d1 you can. Anyways like Frog said? I believe I wouldn't last on LYLO.

New or not, it is not this hard to go back, read our questions, and answer them. I even had, in my vote post, a very clear series of questions, complete with what kind of respond we wanted. There is literally no more we can give you. The only thing you're trying is my patience.

I would be very happy with a PkmSilver lynch today, and I think it is high time someone asked him to claim his role.

[frog]

New or not, it is not this hard to go back, read our questions, and answer them. I even had, in my vote post, a very clear series of questions, complete with what kind of respond we wanted. There is literally no more we can give you. The only thing you're trying is my patience.

I think you and Zyf are taking very clear newbie tells, and then basically acting like they are scum tells or proof that he will never change and thus a decent policy lynch.

You are doing this while I think LQ has an *equal* argument available to suggest inability to answer/dodginess around questions, while that is then paired up with actual actions that appear to advance a scum agenda.

Why do you not see what I'm seeing?

I think PkmSilver's behaviour is actually scummy, and I think it unlikely that everything so far can be chalked up to his newness. If you think you can get him to understand and answer our questions, then by all means try; it would genuinely be a help.

Also, I am seeing what you're seeing with regards to LicketyQuickety. I just don't think adding more pressure will get us much at this stage, especially not if his activity is going to decrease. If he ends up being a viable lynch or I think we could gain something from pushing him, then I'd happily switch wagons, but I like where I am now just fine.

[frog]

I hesitate to hammer Lickety when I haven't seen them make any other pushes–I fail to see why a scum player's initial plan would be push pettily on an IC with a tendency to make wall posts; it has a very low chance of success, and there's plenty of newbies to pick on instead.
Pkm's just straight-up not trying so I'd rather have something from them D1.

You have a point on Lickety, but do you really think PKM's move as scum at this point would be to say "

go ahead and lynch me

"? I think it'd feel like dropping the ball on your partner to someone that new to the game, even if you know it's perfectly valid wifom. Idk... reconsidering as I type. xD

As long as we have no other means of reading the slot, this will always be WIFOM and I'm always going to be paranoid. What is your hesitation for asking for a claim?

[frog]

I think PkmSilver's behaviour is actually scummy, and I think it unlikely that everything so far can be chalked up to his newness. If you think you can get him to understand and answer our questions, then by all means try; it would genuinely be a help.

So your theory is that he's scum.
He is scum who hopes to not give too many bits of info.
So he then offered up a few soft fake reads.
When questioned on the reads, he still doesn't want to give info so he intentionally misunderstands the questions to dodge doing so.
He does this repeatedly.
When garnering extra pressure on this and becoming a top scumspect of discussion due to it he doubles down on the habit and also pleads an AtE 'just lynch me then' response.

All to avoid giving town the mountain of info that is his to unintentionally provide.

Or...and just bear with me on this one...he's a newb, who may or may not have English as a first language, and assuredly barely knows how to operate the BB system (or is faking that really well).

Do I think I can magically sweep in and solve his communication issues?
Not at all.

Do I want to pretend like those extend into a scumtell in order to add pressure to a slot that can barely communicate?
Not at all.

You do you.

I have no idea why you keep asking me to defend a stance I've made clear

and, if you think he really is scum, is a defense that only becomes stronger the more you ask me to do it.

I have no idea where you've got the notion that I've been asking you anything about your stances;

you've

been the one bothering

me

to swap votes despite me making clear that I'm very happy where I am. I have no objections to you making your own pushes and directing the rest of us to look, but don't you dare complain about having to repeat yourself when

I haven't asked you to

.

You also don't get to have a go at me for asking for assistance with respect to PkmSilver. I have stated my issues with that slot, and you have affirmed time and again your issues with LicketyQuickety. If you want me to switch wagons, then I need a resolution to my problems with PkmSilver's slot. Since you think they come from being new and misunderstanding what is being asked of them, this should be possible. As the IC, you're the best person to do it. This is being proactive: I've identified why my vote isn't moving, under what circumstances it might move (over to your preferred lynch, no less), what can be done to effect these, and from whom the action is likely to come. Not only that, I've done it all politely. Your response has been to denigrate, and my respect for you has declined as a result.

[frog]

Then I guess nobody has been paying attention

[frog]

Because I'm clearly asking for a bit beyond a little over zero advice

[frog]

How selfless of you, you deserve a medal

[frog]

Yes, that was what I meant

I know we're lacking two players, but I'm a little concerned that it's getting late in the day and the game is slowing down. Dewy, if you scumread PkmSilver, what is your hesitation in asking for a claim?

[frog]

Silver needs to get in here and respond what we asked him.

See, it's these kinds of comments that make me think much of your content is 'derivative'. A great deal of your recent posts simply rehearse stuff we've known for the last few days, and ask questions which we've already asked. This is less of a problem if you're reminding people of earlier events for a reason, but as it stands, you may as well not have posted at all, since all you've done is re-word what other players have been saying. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but with a third of the game absent, the actives really need to be producing something of note.

Hi JaeReed! Thoughts on the game so far? I appreciate that there's a bit to catch up on but we're fast approaching deadline.

[frog]

It's simply a communication issue.

Welcome to this game.
Would you mind explaining your read on Dewy in a bit more detail? Truth be told, I can't see why people have her down as such strong town, and since you've just been through the game I think your opinion here might be valuable. My issues with her are that she rarely adds anything original, instead rehearsing what has already gone on (see her catch-up posts for the best demonstration of this), and is very quick to pounce on minor issues as if they are 'scumslips'.

With PkmSilver being replaced out, we're hardly going to get answers to our questions, sadly.
UNVOTE:

For now. I still have my suspicions, but I'll wait for their replacement to get in here.

@LicketyQuickety: of all of your null or townreads, which one do you think you are most likely to be wrong on?

@Kittymo: could we get an extension of a day or two, please?

[frog]

The pressure had pretty much died anyway, what with JaeReed's unvote and nobody calling for a claim or intent. The replacement really can't offer us anything regarding our opinions of PkmSilver; they can't answer our questions and chances are they won't be a newbie, so everybody is going to have to reformulate their reads.

I've also been thinking about a question that I would like to pose to you: why do you think the wagon met with so much resistance?

[frog]

Of much higher occurrence is that two scum players are perfectly fine seeing him dead - which helps to justify the paucity of resistance (to be frank, I'd like to hear Frog justify the "resistance" he sees here, because as far as I can tell there's basically been none). I'm his, by far, strongest defender, and all I'm sying is 'it's pretty clear he's a newbie/bad player' and that's the beginning and end of my defense.

What I meant by resistance is that PkmSilver was at L-1 for some time and nobody claimed intent or asked for a claim. There were effectively three players who could do that - Dewy, Impoetic, and you. Your stance on a PkmSilver lynch was made clear quite early on, but Impoetic and Dewy either scumread PkmSilver or thought his posts were gut-scummy. It would have been very easy for those players to push the wagon to completion without a great deal of suspicion coming their way (if anything, this is more remarkable given your assessment of your defence), an opportunity, assuming PkmSilver is town here, that scum would love to take. This leads me to believe that scum were part of the wagon or amongst the inactives (so LicketyQuickety, Zyf, JaeReed, PkmSilver, and Malakittens).

I'm not well-versed in theory, but I think the course of the PkmSilver wagon was peculiar, and that there is something of some significance about it.

[frog]

@Everyone voting Dewy

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8087339

This is her ISO for this game. Start from the beginning, and read. Saying she hasn't brought anything new to the table is a load of bull.

Eh I was almost back to thinking one of scum was in {impo, zyf} due to their repeated back and forth and zyf's lackluster casing of Dewy, but I'll concede I haven't read the full of the thread yet due to weekend duties + work today. I'm not in the game as much as I should be today. Hangover central.

Taking it to L1

VOTE: Dewy

If we're talking opportunism, JaeReed, then I wonder what you'd make of this if it wasn't you doing it.
That said, what pings me more is Dewy's vote on Impoetic; the reasoning is taken precisely from your vote on me and it reads very much like an OMGUS. I've noted my own suspicions of Dewy throughout the game, and I agree with much of what Zyf in particular has been saying over the course of the last few pages. Impoetic is also right that she has faded into the background at times during the game, which is probably a result of parroting other players and asking easy questions that aren't then followed up on. If you read her ISO you'll also find she's unduly concerned with how she looks to other players, pressing for information as to their reservations at a time of no pressure on her slot. All these things are scummy because it shows no willingness to actively scumhunt, rather a decision to just fit in and let the game go by.

This is intent to hammer. Dewy, please claim.

@Thor: apologies if this is clear from one of your earlier posts, but do you have any scumreads aside from LicketyQuickety? My read on him has weakened, though that might just be because he's been flying under the radar as of late. If we get some revelation from Dewy then I really need to rethink the game.

[frog]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Dewy

[frog]

Impoetic, is that just for claiming intent or does this vote have more conviction than your previous two?

[frog]

Oh, and I should clarify, Dewy is still at L-1. Do not lynch before a claim.

[frog]

Impoetic, is that just for claiming intent or does this vote have more conviction than your previous two?

Conviction doesn't come naturally to me so don't bother asking me that but it's for your sudden hammer intent just now (and what Thor pointed out about the circumstances), your asking for someone to state intent earlier on someone you claimed you just wanted information from, how indistinguishable this is to me from the bits and pieces I read of another game you played as scum, and I guess

PoE? you were my choice other than dewy

With regards to PkmSilver, I did want to get information out of them, true, but I also thought they were scum. After their replacement the momentum died on that lynch and there was no way GuiltyLion could defend PkmSilver's actions. The most favourable read I have ever had on Dewy has been null, and that was towards the beginning of the game; they have only become scummier in my eyes, and the reasons should be plain from my ISO, so consider those. It isn't out of the blue.

What scum game of mine did you read? The last completed game of mine dates to 2014, so I honestly can't remember much from them.

Anyway, take your time. We still have a little time left of this day, so, whether you come back to me or not, just get your thoughts in order before whatever flip happens comes so you know what to look for on Day 2. We do, however, have to lynch someone today, and from the looks of things your vote could end up being a key one.

[frog]

frog-They just seem too feisty and disagree on a lot of things that make them just not look like scum whatsoever. I also really like 565 although its logic on a lack of hammer intent could easily be due to a reason other than what (I think) frog is implying. Town.

In which of my five posts since you wrote this did I become your second scummiest player?

[frog]

Alright, since it is looking increasingly likely that I might get wagoned, it would be much appreciated if those voting or FoS'ing me could explain their reasons so I can deal with them in the time remaining. Currently I have a grand total of nothing from Thor, JaeReed, and Zyf beyond some very vague suspicions regarding my unvote of PkmSilver's slot; if any/all of you could formulate something like a case that would be helpful.

[frog]

@Everyone voting Dewy

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p8087339

This is her ISO for this game. Start from the beginning, and read. Saying she hasn't brought anything new to the table is a load of bull.

Eh I was almost back to thinking one of scum was in {impo, zyf} due to their repeated back and forth and zyf's lackluster casing of Dewy, but I'll concede I haven't read the full of the thread yet due to weekend duties + work today. I'm not in the game as much as I should be today. Hangover central.

Taking it to L1

VOTE: Dewy

If we're talking opportunism, JaeReed, then I wonder what you'd make of this if it wasn't you doing it.

Tell me how this is opportunistic.

The case they presented (that Dewy has been parroting and not making any new statements) was bull, and I called them out on that. Does this mean I have to be heavily townreading Dewy? You conveniently missed the post in between those where I pointed out I forgot about the Dewy "scum-slip" debacle, too. This is the kind of shit that makes me think you could be scum.

The fact that Thor seemed to jump on this does make a Dewy/Thor scumteam the most likely, as GL said. But you have started blatantly misrepping and been so damn opportunistic since I replaced in that I am having a hell of a time trying to sort you as anything but scum.

I don't know, perhaps discrediting part of the case (which you have

now

come around and said was actually sound) against Dewy and then leaping on the wagon when it's taking off

might

make it opportunistic? How on earth does this contrast, unfavourably for me, with my move onto Dewy, who I have been suspicious of for a while now (and you can find this in a dozen or so of my posts)? My point with that comment was that you're giving yourself a latitude that you are not affording to other players. If I conveniently missed the post where you forgot about the Dewy 'scum-slip' debacle, then you missed mine, before my vote, where I commented on why I found Dewy scummy. If I have been misrepresenting you over your vote and your comments, then you have been doing exactly the same to me (I was pretty clearly not discrediting Impoetic in that post you quote). I concur with GuiltyLion that we should probably drop the word 'opportunistic' from our dictionaries, not least because we can all point fingers at each other and cite this reason and face few consequences because it s nigh-on impossible to rebut. As far as I can tell, this is your only problem with my play so far; would you like to reassess whether this makes me scummy or not?

Since there has

still

not actually been any points levelled against me, I can only address some of the concerns implicit in vote or suspicion posts.

1) Regarding my unvote of PkmSilver: PkmSilver being replaced out was obviously the motivation for my unvote. I was on the wagon for two reasons, first because I thought PkmSilver could be scum, and second to get explanations for his reads (the random nature of which being my main suspicion). Once the replacement announcement was made and Impoetic unvoted, the reasons for keeping my vote there disappeared; at L-2, with no intent from other players for the several days they were at L-1, his replacement was unlikely to be under much pressure. Criticism from Zyf that my unvote was scummy because it prevented us from gaining information from the replacement ignores the fact that I was voting PkmSilver because I thought he was scummy; with his removal from the game, resolution to my suspicions was never going to come and, again, the lynch of the slot was increasingly unlikely.

2) Regarding my intent on Dewy: it should be quite clear from my ISO that I have had my suspicions on Dewy for quite a while. Thor is not entirely wrong when he accredits the wagon to me; many of the points brought against Dewy, such as asking 'easy' questions and posting 'derivative' content, were concerns that I first voiced. This intent, then, was hardly out of the blue, and branding it 'opportunistic' fails to account for this. It was fast approaching the end of the day (my intent post was before the deadline extension, so we had even less time than we do now) and so messing around and wasting time getting to where I was going to go would have been outright detrimental. I'm not quite sure how my detractors would have preferred it; not to claim intent on a scumread with less than two days to go before deadline? Impoetic seemed uneasy about intent being claimed, but it needs to be claimed at some point, and there was no other time to claim it. The game needed decisive action if Dewy was to have a chance to respond and for us to move on, if needed be. I provided that, and it cannot be dismissed as opportunistic.

Other points can easily be marshalled up; if you think the PkmSilver and Dewy lynches were too fast, then the pace of mine (although erratic) outstrips them. If you think that the whole opportunism thing holds water, then can we call Zyf's 'rereading bro' post after he called me town just as suspicions came my way the very same? If you think that no good points were made against PkmSilver, or GreenNope even earlier in the game, then what about here, where nobody has yet actually brought a case on me, with Zyf even asking that GuiltyLion provide a case that I am town? More can be easily be multiplied. If this doesn't work for you, make your minds up soon so I can claim and leave you with my reads list before the day is over. There, I've said my piece. The same cannot be said for those voting me.

Now, onto some proactive stuff: Dewy has not posted since the wagon on her took off, and, if this is lurking, this only adds to the points that have already been brought up against her. These can be summarised as flying under the radar, copying other people's content and asking obvious questions and then failing to follow any of them up in an effort to seem like she's scumhunting, changing reads with little explanation in an effort to 'fit in', and, now, avoiding answering other players' concerns. Thor has attempted to rebut some of these, but his attempts are inconsistent with his opinions elsewhere. To take one example: Thor believes Dewy is simply new, taking their first steps at scumhunting, although her behaviour in this regard would be scummy for any other player. Thor also scumreads GreenNope/Malakittens over something that is much more obviously the result of being new, that of having reservations about starting wagons and when to vote. His white knighting, at any rate, has already been noted; what we need right now is for Dewy to get in here, explain herself, once and clearly, and claim.

[frog]

I believe at that time I was waiting on Thor to provide some meta, correct? I wrote in my very next post (#159) that my read on him was best read as 'pending' for that reason. By #236 I had read some of his meta and was satisfied, so he was no longer a scumlean. LicketyQuickety flew under the radar a little bit. My reasons for voting them earlier in the game should be clear from my ISO; it was about reads. Nothing after that really pinged me, I suppose. I'm still suspicious of them, but they have faded into the background a bit and my later convictions on PkmSilver and Dewy were stronger. I think you're also saying something here about why the inactives were scummier than my other null reads? That's basically convention for me as I dislike lurkers and players that have posted no content (keep in mind this reads list is very early in the game). PkmSilver, GreenNope, and Hyped are in no particular order here. I could have made that clearer.

Regarding being 4th on PkmSilver or the potential hammer on Dewy: first of all, I'm not sure what being later on those wagons means for my alignment. As far as I'm concerned, being on a lynch means you are responsible. Surely being the hammer vote means I would be precisely the person who pushed it over the edge? At any rate, that observation is only valid for PkmSilver. The wagon on Dewy really took off when I was asleep, so I had no opportunity to be anything other than the first vote or the last.

I didn't think there was some deeper strategy going on, and I never said as much. Scum have to fabricate reads, and if a player can't answer as to why their reads have changed or explain them then chances are they're scum. PkmSilver I understood as new scum, not some mastermind. If I were a more aggressive player I'd call this misrepping, but this opportunity to clear this up has been a good one.

[frog]

It's not the night kill that is prompting JaeReed to vote you, Thor. Also, that player-alignment exploration you've got going there looks rather confused.

VOTE: Thor

[frog]

It should be pretty obvious that you're being voted, Thor, because you seem to be the most likely candidate for Dewy's scumpartner. Of your meta that I have read, I recall a private topic in which you state that bussing is on the decline for partners and that you tend not to do that. With that admission, and your odd townread of Dewy, the case is pretty solid. I say odd townread, because it appeared to centre on regarding Dewy as new, but she was, in fact, an SE, and you were scumreading other players over obviously newby things anyway.

Besides, you've already been proven wrong once this game, so your certainty regarding rebuttals is wearing a little thin, as is your whole 'if you disagree with my reads then I'll cry'. Your case on LicketyQuickety also needs to be updated; I can read why you think they're scummy, but why are they scummy and Dewy's partner?

[frog]

I am Scum reading Thor on top of the reason of association with Dewy because thor never clarifies himself voluntarily, but instead decides to throw back the question to the people giving him reasons why he is Scum there by forcing the discussion to go longer than it needs to be and making it difficult for people to articulate what they mean.

You know, that's a very succinct way of describing my experience of Thor in this game

[frog]

are you pr? because I know this is confirmation bias speaking but if you're not pr i'm like 10000% voting you today, especially after this entrance. I can't imagine this would be your approach as town atm

Well, since there are assuredly no other investigative PRs, I'm not sure what your pause is about, nor your issue with my approach.

I mean, what Impoetic means is pretty obvious here and Thor's acting as if he legitimately has no idea what she is talking about.

[frog]

Don't really have much to add from the last page, but Thor should really claim at this point since it's pretty clear he's the next lynch barring being a non-investigative power role

[frog]

Prod dodging. We need a Thor claim when he's next on.

[frog]

1. Town is being SILLY blind right now.
2. There isn't a case on me besides "Thor don't bus, and Thor protected Dewy"
3. This rather blindly ignores that I also strong defended Pkm - is he also my scumbuddy? Yeah...this case is bad.

For the record, nobody is suggesting that you defend

only

your scumbuddies. That would be an exceptionally poor way to play mafia. There's nothing inconsistent about the case that you don't tend to bus your partners and your claim to also defend town. This is, of course, to say nothing about the case being about the

way

you protected Dewy.

[frog]

Did we win?

[frog]

Hooray, well done town! I'll get some thoughts together tomorrow evening probably

[frog]

Uhhhh and sorry frog.

This is awks, lol.

Nah, it's cool JaeReed. Pleasure playing with you
Could you explain what about my playstyle makes you paranoid, though? It'd be interesting to know.

@Zyf: I didn't want to say this during the game since it would look like buddying, but dear me, you are TOWN when you're town.

@Dewy: I can't speak for anyone else, but, honestly, if you had been more prominent and had advanced original points I don't think I would have suspected you as much. It just looked like you were trying to fly under the radar.

@Thor: You don't need my advice. I would like to know what that early push on GreenNope was, though.

@Impoetic: I'll echo the whole 'you can afford to play more confidently' thing, but not just because of your role. Honestly, the fact that you were widely read as town would have been enough to get you shot at some point, short of Zyf having had to claim. Now that the game's over and you know I'm town, know that I wasn't buddying earlier, and that I think your contribution this game was sound, and would only have been better if you had expressed yourself with more rigour. You were a pleasure to play with and, if I stay with the site, I hope to play with you again.

Regarding site meta: so this is my first completed game since 2014, and I have to say I do think the meta has changed, in some ways substantially, since then. I'm trying to play like it is two years ago, making some cases, not trusting gut reads, leaving none of my suspicions at the side, and so on. I still feel like that's my preferred way to play, to be honest. I don't know, what does everyone else think?