Newbie 1724 ~ Endgame

[KittyMo]

[3] GreenNope ~ Dewy, Impoetic, Thor665
[2] PkmSilver ~ frog
[1] Thor665 ~ GreenNope

[4] Not Voting ~ Hyped, LicketyQuickety, lis, PkmSilver

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at (expired on 2016-07-20 18:00:00)

[Dewy]

@LQ

It looks more like they are trying to subtly discrediting people's points rather than Scum hunting. Dewy is just going along with what looks like it taking ground and looking busy. It looks like they are both trying to get Townie points by not actually Scum hunting.

When I read over the game, I tend to take notes. On GN's post's I made a note, but as I kept reading, you already posted something similar.
I'm scum reading GN because he's to willing to change his beliefs when pressured. I'm not seeing what I'm randomly going along with on that or what points I'm discrediting.

In post 68 you said that GN was to careless to be scum. Can you elaborate on that?

@frog

I am hoping to do something with it.

What were you hoping to do?

@Thor

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Why is that?

[LicketyQuickety]

@LQ

It looks more like they are trying to subtly discrediting people's points rather than Scum hunting. Dewy is just going along with what looks like it taking ground and looking busy. It looks like they are both trying to get Townie points by not actually Scum hunting.

When I read over the game, I tend to take notes. On GN's post's I made a note, but as I kept reading, you already posted something similar.
I'm scum reading GN because he's to willing to change his beliefs when pressured. I'm not seeing what I'm randomly going along with on that or what points I'm discrediting.

In post 68 you said that GN was to careless to be scum. Can you elaborate on that?

Just because you take notes does not at all mean that you can't be Scum. What if GN is just too new to know any better? The point wasn't that you were providing the same reasons, but that you were jumping on something I don't personally consider to be terribly AI.

Newb Town don't give a flying fuck what they look like - they haven't an inclination that what/how you appear as means anything at all. They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

[frog]

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

Would you mind explaining this? In particular, do you agree or disagree with the following:

1) Randomly voting someone is common, if not usual and expected, on mafiascum, on the first few pages of Day 1
2) Scumreading someone based entirely on them starting the first wagon is an not a viable way of approaching the game
3) Voting someone when you suspect them to be scum, excepting occasions such as them having claimed or being at L-1, is the best thing to do
4) The inconsistency that GreenNope has displayed has led to them being scumread by a handful of players
5) This is not optimal play for town or scum and is also easily corrected
6) Whether GreenNope is town or scum, they will be unlikely to repeat this behaviour in subsequent games, whether they are town or scum
7) That Thor can be actively scumhunting and educating at the same time, and does not need to respond to a post not addressed to him, as indeed he did not?

What were you hoping to do?

Several things, really; by challenging the wagon I thought I'd see who was on it by genuine conviction and who was just trying to get towncred by adding pressure to an ostensibly scummy slot without contributing anything of their own. On the off chance that GreenNope becomes today's lynch and flips town, a few alternative points here and there prevents the mafia from furthering the line 'they were too scummy to be scum' on Day 2, which would be counter-productive for our understanding of what had happened.
I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that) I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

We're going to be disagreeing with each other for the rest of this game, I think. I find new players to be the most erratic precisely for the reasons you have given; they are coming with a diversity of levels of knowledge, personalities, and playstyles, some influenced by playing mafia IRL or on other websites, such that any attempt to create a universal scumtell for them is inevitably frustrated.

[LicketyQuickety]

I'm not at all getting how you can say:

What were you hoping to do?

Several things, really; by challenging the wagon I thought I'd see who was on it by genuine conviction and who was just trying to get towncred by adding pressure to an ostensibly scummy slot without contributing anything of their own. On the off chance that GreenNope becomes today's lynch and flips town, a few alternative points here and there prevents the mafia from furthering the line 'they were too scummy to be scum' on Day 2, which would be counter-productive for our understanding of what had happened.
I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that)

I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

And also leave out when you say:

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

Would you mind explaining this? In particular, do you agree or disagree with the following:

1) Randomly voting someone is common, if not usual and expected, on mafiascum, on the first few pages of Day 1
2) Scumreading someone based entirely on them starting the first wagon is an not a viable way of approaching the game
3) Voting someone when you suspect them to be scum, excepting occasions such as them having claimed or being at L-1, is the best thing to do
4) The inconsistency that GreenNope has displayed has led to them being scumread by a handful of players
5) This is not optimal play for town or scum and is also easily corrected
6) Whether GreenNope is town or scum, they will be unlikely to repeat this behaviour in subsequent games, whether they are town or scum
7) That Thor can be actively scumhunting and educating at the same time, and does not need to respond to a post not addressed to him, as indeed he did not?

To not include that you were putting words in Thors mouth saying he was doing it to "educate" the newbs. I must be missing something because if that is a deliberate act by the IC, then they damn well better say it out loud that they are doing it to educate the newbs cuz newbs is newbs and they sure as hell are not going to catch a detail like that. Some of the really smart ones might catch it, but in all likelihood its going to go straight over a huge percentage of people's heads who are new to the game.

They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

We're going to be disagreeing with each other for the rest of this game, I think. I find new players to be the most erratic precisely for the reasons you have given; they are coming with a diversity of levels of knowledge, personalities, and playstyles, some influenced by playing mafia IRL or on other websites, such that any attempt to create a universal scumtell for them is inevitably frustrated.

This is how you get a Town read out of a Newb:

Get them to spill their guts all over the pavement on a hot summer day.. That will tell you

exactly

what alignment they are. If you catch a lie, their tone is bad, they don't say hardly anything and generally don't answer the question to the absolute best of their knowledge, then its a pretty clear indication that they are Scum. OTOH, if they basically tell you their life story and tell it exactly as they see it, without any hindrance of hiding their thought process, then it is very very clearly a Town tell. In short, if they are acting like they have nothing to hide, they are Town. If they are being cryptic and sneaky, they are Scum. It is that easy.

[frog]

Those two parts of my post are responding to two different people over different parts of the game, as is pretty apparent by even a cursory glance of what I wrote. And, yes, I think you are missing something: point 7, perhaps?

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you read as town, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

[LicketyQuickety]

Those two parts of my post are responding to two different people over different parts of the game, as is pretty apparent by even a cursory glance of what I wrote. And, yes, I think you are missing something: point 7, perhaps?

Yeah, didn't see point 7. Its why I have a Scummy meta and as such why I play a lot of Newbie games. Do it for the practice. My problem with what you said is that you made a point of saying that Thor was not voting someone who he was pushing specifically for the purpose of educating newbs.. by that logic, everything Thor does or does not do is educating the newbs which would make your comment that Thor was specifically not voting someone he was pushing to teach newbs something, something Thor never actually said he was doing a moot point. Perhaps you don't know how the role of IC works, but as I understand it, when there is a standard theory that the IC is trying to get across to do or not do, the IC will note it as such. That is at least how I would go about being the IC. Aside from that, there is much the IC will not say because they should understand that everyone's playstyle is a little different and part of these newbie games is figuring out what a newbies playstyle is going to be. In short, not everything the IC does is Mafia Law and as such, there is room for personal playstyle where players are just going to play differently. The role of the IC is not to hold everyone's hand through the game and let everyone know everything there is to know about this game in a single game.

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you read as town, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

Uhmmm... I don't have to agree with everything a Town read says for them to be a Town read. I don't have to agree with anything they say for me to Town read them in theory. All I have to do is have rational for why that player is Town and I don't even provide that all the time for my Town reads. Scum reads are likewise - I don't have to disagree with everything they say or really anything as long as I have a basis for why that player is Scum. Admittedly, you need more backing for your Scum reads than your Town reads if you actually want to get your Scum reads lynched.

Aside from that, you just did something I specifically mentioned as being a Scum tell ie. being cryptic. IDK what Town read you are talking about or what was said that I disagreed with so you might want to point that out before I throw a serious vote in your direction.

And my system is very very far from rigid. I actually have one of the more flexible approaches to reading people on this forum on average. You are assuming that just because I have Specific Scum and Town tells for newbies means that this translates into how I read everyone and nothing could be further from the truth. This is inductive reasoning you are using when you say that so either you are really confused about how I play, or you are Scum.

[frog]

Those two parts of my post are responding to two different people over different parts of the game, as is pretty apparent by even a cursory glance of what I wrote. And, yes, I think you are missing something: point 7, perhaps?

Yeah, didn't see point 7. Its why I have a Scummy meta and as such why I play a lot of Newbie games. Do it for the practice. My problem with what you said is that you made a point of saying that Thor was not voting someone who he was pushing specifically for the purpose of educating newbs.. by that logic, everything Thor does or does not do is educating the newbs which would make your comment that Thor was specifically not voting someone he was pushing to teach newbs something, something Thor never actually said he was doing a moot point. Perhaps you don't know how the role of IC works, but as I understand it, when there is a standard theory that the IC is trying to get across to do or not do, the IC will note it as such. That is at least how I would go about being the IC. Aside from that, there is much the IC will not say because they should understand that everyone's playstyle is a little different and part of these newbie games is figuring out what a newbies playstyle is going to be. In short, not everything the IC does is Mafia Law and as such, there is room for personal playstyle where players are just going to play differently. The role of the IC is not to hold everyone's hand through the game and let everyone know everything there is to know about this game in a single game.

Nowhere in the comment you're referring to is a vote mentioned, neither did I say that he was

specifically

educating new players, because doing that and exerting pressure are not exclusive. The context for the post was you being worried about Thor carrying the game and stifling content. Have you forgotten what you were talking about?

A challenge to your assumption has already been brought up by a player you read as town, but it's apparent that you'll stick to your fairly rigid, systematic approach to the game, and I'll leave you to it.

Uhmmm... I don't have to agree with everything a Town read says for them to be a Town read. I don't have to agree with anything they say for me to Town read them in theory. All I have to do is have rational for why that player is Town and I don't even provide that all the time for my Town reads. Scum reads are likewise - I don't have to disagree with everything they say or really anything as long as I have a basis for why that player is Scum. Admittedly, you need more backing for your Scum reads than your Town reads if you actually want to get your Scum reads lynched.

Aside from that, you just did something I specifically mentioned as being a Scum tell ie. being cryptic. IDK what Town read you are talking about or what was said that I disagreed with so you might want to point that out before I throw a serious vote in your direction.

And my system is very very far from rigid. I actually have one of the more flexible approaches to reading people on this forum on average. You are assuming that just because I have Specific Scum and Town tells for newbies means that this translates into how I read everyone and nothing could be further from the truth. This is inductive reasoning you are using when you say that so either you are really confused about how I play, or you are Scum.

I disagree that being cryptic is necessarily a scumtell, but, regardless, you shouldn't be having any problem with my remark; don't you know who your townreads are? Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?
If you have anything you can call a 'system' it is already, in my opinion, too rigid. I wouldn't push the 'inductive reasoning' stuff too far, by the way, because, to quote you, 'this is not a good look for you.'

[Thor665]

I'm sorry, a misrep? What is this about?

It's about the question I asked you about the accusation you made.

Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells.

Here's your accusation.

And here's my question;

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

Can you answer it now? I don't think I can ask it any clearer.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, and I admitted to lack of observation immediately and I am having to drag an answer out of him about how his logic process works.
I agree.

I don't see how that makes them the same things at all.
Especially since one was advanced as a scum/town case and the other was a 'oh you answered the wrong question - while being correct about you answering one of the questions, but being wrong about you being asked either of the questions'
SO actually I see those as really different, can you clarify again why they are the same?

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other.

What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote.

For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

I also have not confirmed or denied that my username is Thor.
I don't get the point here - I am asking him to explain the logic of a scumtell and to justify lack of RVS vote or presence of it. By definition that can be taken as education as I'm asking him to think about the process.
By definition it is also scumhunting, as I'm asking in order to understand what he's thinking.
Neither of these blatant realities should need to be noted.

Did you really not see either of them?

@Thor

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Why is that?

The logic being he is seeing someone left swinging in the wind, worried that he is looking scummy, and so leaps in to field the questions on the presumption it will prevent his scumbuddy from looking worse.

There is theoretically no town motivation to cut off scumhunting - so unless LQ wants to make the case that what I was doing was not scumhunting, there is no actual justification for his actions.

He has now listed GN as a strong town read, and has claimed he was generically addressing a thought not answering a question, so he is either town who doesn't understand how he's gakking up scumhunting, or scum who is painfully aware of how accurate my raised issue is. Your value call after that. I'm voting GN.

I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place

I didn't imply that, I was pretty much outright stating it.

I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

If you have a better method for catching scum on Day 1 than identifying lack of internal logic and lynching that player I would be happy to hear about it.

[LicketyQuickety]

Oh boy, looks like I am going to have to go hard mode for this game. Will get to your reply in a few Thor.

[Dewy]

Just because you take notes does not at all mean that you can't be Scum. What if GN is just too new to know any better? The point wasn't that you were providing the same reasons, but that you were jumping on something I don't personally consider to be terribly AI.

I was scum reading the person who was the most scummy.

Newb Town don't give a flying fuck what they look like - they haven't an inclination that what/how you appear as means anything at all. They are just trying to figure out this bran new game that they prolly don't have much experience playing and I think that is

exactly

what is going on with GN. Newbs are absolutely the easier people to read. I will adamantly disagree with anyone who thinks they are not.

I agree with you on the fact that newbs are the easiest players to read because I have a harder time reading more experienced players.
On the point where you said that newbs don't really care about what they look like, it's not just newbtown that shouldn't care much about their image. Town's job is to scumhunt, not to care about their image. The only people worried about their image is scum.

[Dewy]

@frog

Several things, really; by challenging the wagon I thought I'd see who was on it by genuine conviction and who was just trying to get towncred by adding pressure to an ostensibly scummy slot without contributing anything of their own. On the off chance that GreenNope becomes today's lynch and flips town, a few alternative points here and there prevents the mafia from furthering the line 'they were too scummy to be scum' on Day 2, which would be counter-productive for our understanding of what had happened.

What did you get from challenging the wagon, what where you able to conclude from it?

I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that) I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour, but at the same time he has been open.

I feel like you're being wishy-washy here. On one hand, you are saying that Thor is scummy in:

I also thought that Thor was laying an abnormally large number of traps that came from at best a selective reading of what the person they quote had been saying - examples include #37 with the phrase 'did you really not notice that?', where he appeared to imply that LicketyQuickety had deliberately left his potentially accidental vote in place, and #64, where he attacked LQ for not answering a question he hadn't asked them. By correcting (or defending, if you really want to call it that) I was hoping to see whether Thor would uphold or retract his statement, and also draw some attention to this. I'm a little suspicious of Thor because I feel like his baiting is unlikely to catch scum, being more likely to confuse the rest of us and distract from genuinely scummy behaviour...

However, on the other hand, you seem to be defending him in:

, but at the same time he has been open.

What is your stance? Are you playing the best of both sides?

[Dewy]

I forgot to include this, but 85 was to LQ.

[Dewy]

What did you get from challenging the wagon, what

where

were you able to conclude from it?

EBWOP (Stands for: edit by way of post. We typically use this because we aren't allowed to edit the post itself, so we make another post to correct the mistake.)

[LicketyQuickety]

For clarity's sake I am blocking up conversations by using quotes.

I'm sorry, a misrep? What is this about?

It's about the question I asked you about the accusation you made.

Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells.

Here's your accusation.

And here's my question;

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

Can you answer it now? I don't think I can ask it any clearer.

making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does)

which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

I highlighted the part where you said you were making Town Tells. I said later that This doesn't mean much until after flips as I stated here:

Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

Because I am Trying to split hairs. If you are Scum, I am going to have to think outside the box a bit. That means trying to catch you on something you might not expect. What do you mean by "question answer?" That is confusing a fuck.

Next topic of discussion:

That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, and I admitted to lack of observation immediately and I am having to drag an answer out of him about how his logic process works.
I agree.

Who are you addressing here? Who are you talking to? Are you talking to me or are you talking to everyone else and telling them I am Scum? I am not Scum, I am Town.
You did not admit to lack of understanding right away. You said I was missrepping you first thing, then covered it up with acting like you had no idea what I was talking about. Then asked me to explain where I said you said you were pointing out your own Town tells.

SO actually I see those as really different, can you clarify again why they are the same?

You saying GN should vote you because they Scum read you, then you questioning GN when they voted you the next post is the same fucking thing because its confusing as shit to follow only much less confusing that all this shit.

Especially since one was advanced as a scum/town case and the other was a 'oh you answered the wrong question - while being correct about you answering one of the questions, but being wrong about you being asked either of the questions'

You are saying what your engagement with GN about voting you was considered Scum hunting. You are saying that essentially, because GN was unaware of how to conduct their votes which caused you to Scum read them this is different that you not knowing what I meant when I said you were pointing out supposed Town tells by yourself and even after I had pointed them out with highlighted color you still said that you had no idea what I was talking about and then later said you admitted you didn't observe that happening all the while still inquiring about that happenstance. If you were paying attention at all you would be able to immediately identify where I highlighted with color where you pointed out your own supposed Town tells. I do not believe you would have admitted to not observing yourself pointing out your own Town tells while still asking where you did this as Town.

I don't see how that makes them the same things at all.

Then you are playing dumb.

The following is the interaction you are talking about regarding what you said about why am I answering a question you asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question you did ask me:

No Town tell about it.. Scum distance each other early, its a pretty common thing. Also, if you are Scum with PKM then there are no more Scum to even vote for them. And lets not forget that your vote on PKM didn't really add any pressure to them at all, but you decided to go after someone else in stead. Don't know that I like you trying to obviously point out your own Town tells. Don't like that at all. Obviously that doesn't matter too much until we get flips, but still.

@LQ - why are you answering a question I asked GreenNope while not actually answering the question I did ask you?
I'll repeat the question to you - Do you have any reads currently?
Please answer both of those.

As to your other thing - there is *nothing* in my post that suggests I'm pointing out my own town tells - where are you getting that conclusion?

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

The next quote is where I try to explain:

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

This is not a good look for you. You are basically doing the same type of derp that GN was doing - I'm sure you can see now how that doesn't make GN Scum. Let me explain it so it is clear. You are Scum reading GN for the whole voting mishap. That would be fine except you fail to see how when you told GN to vote you and then they did and then GN said they usually don't vote people that early that is was a lack of observation just like you saying you didn't see when I pointed out you were pointing out your own Town tells. I have half a mind that you both could be trying to derp clear yourselves. Obviously GN is not as obvious in that I feel it could be said that GN is being too careless to be Scum while you are outright not observing something you said yourself.

So you see, you are simply creating a massive clusterfuck of information when it is completely unnecessary, Thor. You are unnecessarily complicating quote blocks in a way that could potentially confuse the shit out of Town because of the way that I have to answer to get my point across which could very well be a Scum agenda by you. Consider yourself Scum read.

Last engagement I bother to have the time to do at this point in time.

I think you're overstating the case here. It's Day 1 in a Newbie, so it to be expected that the IC is prominent in some way or other.

What Thor is doing, independent of whether GreenNope is scum, is educating in RVS and when to vote.

For what it's worth, I don't read GreenNope as scum.

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

I also have not confirmed or denied that my username is Thor.
I don't get the point here - I am asking him to explain the logic of a scumtell and to justify lack of RVS vote or presence of it. By definition that can be taken as education as I'm asking him to think about the process.
By definition it is also scumhunting, as I'm asking in order to understand what he's thinking.
Neither of these blatant realities should need to be noted.

Did you really not see either of them?

That is entirely missing the point. You threw accusations in GN face and then voted them. So you were Scum hunting them and Scum reading them at the same time. We call that tunneling where I come from. Why is GN Scum? What reactions did they give you that tell you that? You said you were looking for them to share their thought process.. What info did you gather from them sharing their thought process?

@Thor

Oh, you're right, I was presuming a sloppy read of the post thinking I had asked up not down, that makes it even weirder that he hopped in to field it.
He can move to the scum pool with Green, especially if Green flips scum.

Why is that?

The logic being he is seeing someone left swinging in the wind, worried that he is looking scummy, and so leaps in to field the questions on the presumption it will prevent his scumbuddy from looking worse.

There is theoretically no town motivation to cut off scumhunting - so unless LQ wants to make the case that what I was doing was not scumhunting, there is no actual justification for his actions.

He has now listed GN as a strong town read, and has claimed he was generically addressing a thought not answering a question, so he is either town who doesn't understand how he's gakking up scumhunting, or scum who is painfully aware of how accurate my raised issue is. Your value call after that. I'm voting GN.

If i was worried about what I looked like I would definitely not be engaging this far down the rabbit hole of clusterfuck logic.

[frog]

If you have a better method for catching scum on Day 1 than identifying lack of internal logic and lynching that player I would be happy to hear about it.

My issue isn't with the method, it's with the way you're going about putting it into practice. Taking the example of LicketyQuickety's misquote, I can't see what you were hoping to gain from that besides the opportunity for casting an unwarranted aspersion on a slot. I am concerned that you are trying to trip people up on things which are in no way alignment-indicative, and then using confusion or inconsistency as the pretext for scumreading or voting them. If you had picked people up over inconsistency surrounding votes and reads, we wouldn't be having this discussion; pressure over a lack of knowledge on how to play on the site, formatting mistakes, and not answering questions to which the person wasn't directed deserves being called out.

What did you get from challenging the wagon, what where you able to conclude from it?

Well, I quite liked Impoetic's response to the challenges because it showed a level of reflection about their vote that gave me the impression it was genuine and informed (at least on her own terms).

What is your stance [on Thor]? Are you playing the best of both sides?

I'm null-leaning-scum on Thor currently. My uncertainty stems from him conceding more than I think scum would concede, but this can lead into WIFOM. I have suspicions, but I need longer to confirm them. Luckily, it appears the game is going in a direction that will enable precisely that.

@LicketyQuickety: I would like an answer to the following:

Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?

@KittyMo: can we have prods on the two inactive players if they haven't already been sent out, please?

[Thor665]

I agree with you on the fact that newbs are the easiest players to read because I have a harder time reading more experienced players.

I'm of the opposite opinion - it's harder to delineate scum intent in Newbies because there is less game evidence to figure out if they are making something up, or honestly believe a crazy scumtell they're pushing. Also the derp hammers, all the derp hammers.

For clarity's sake I am blocking up conversations by using quotes.

Dear gawd!
As a suggestion, there is an area code;

Code: Select all

[area][/area]

It ends up looking like this;

This is mah area!

Provides separation without looking like quotes and hurting my brain having to chew through them.

making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.

Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does)

which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.

I highlighted the part where you said you were making Town Tells. I said later that This doesn't mean much until after flips as I stated here:

And the fact that I was discussing the theoretical concept of it being a scumtell to vote second, and suggesting that it wasn't because it could equally be argued as a town tell (thus making my point that it wasn't alignment indicative either way) didn't come through?
Like you thought I was legit raising points for me being town that included "evidence" of PkmSilver being scum, and also me being scum?
Like, I feel like there's a specific reason you had to trim down my quote there to make it look like you're talking sense.

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

Felt more like a question answer to me, sounds like you're trying to split hairs here.

Because I am Trying to split hairs. If you are Scum, I am going to have to think outside the box a bit. That means trying to catch you on something you might not expect. What do you mean by "question answer?" That is confusing a Smurf.

To answer the second part first - when I am asking you about answering a question, and you say you're not answering a question, and I say it sounds like a question answer - I think "question answer" translates clearly as...it feels like you were answering a question, specifically the one we were talking about. Sorry if that confused you.

First part - so you're splitting hairs to defend yourself in order to catch me being scum?

Unvote: GreenNope
Vote: LicketyQuickety

I don't buy that, not at all.

Who are you addressing here? Who are you talking to? Are you talking to me or are you talking to everyone else and telling them I am Scum? I am not Scum, I am Town.

I was talking to you and to everyone - you in specific because I was responding to you, and everyone because everyone reads everything we type. It's a public forum game.

You did not admit to lack of understanding right away. You said I was missrepping you first thing, then covered it up with acting like you had no idea what I was talking about. Then asked me to explain where I said you said you were pointing out your own Town tells.

Okay, you are shifting around a lot here.
My understanding is you cited me for misunderstanding that you didn't answer a question I hadn't asked you - which Frogger pointed out and I admitted to right away.
I will agree that I didn't admit to being wrong about the misrep right away, because I didn't understand how you got there, and now that you have just provided an answer I find it a slightly scummy one.

You saying GN should vote you because they Scum read you, then you questioning GN when they voted you the next post is the same Smurfing thing because its confusing as Smurf to follow only much less confusing that all this Smurf.

You are answering a valid question with rage.
If you are honestly this peeved off - why? I'm actively *trying* to be clear to you in everything I say and do. I think all the misunderstandings are stemming from you and your responses, and think I am actively trying to avoid you being able to call anything confusing.
If this is fake rage, I don't accept it as showing any logic from you, and am interpreting it as trying to cover up awareness of your logic being shaky.
I currently favor the second option, because I don't think I'm being confusing. But if something is confusing - maybe ask to clear it up?

I'm not answering a question you asked GreenNope; I am noting an observation I made of your post. There is a difference there.

I strongly disagree.
There was a question.
You addressed it to deflect/weaken it - in effect, precluding GN's need to answer it.

That is entirely missing the point. You threw accusations in GN face and then voted them. So you were Scum hunting them and Scum reading them at the same time. We call that tunneling where I come from. Why is GN Scum? What reactions did they give you that tell you that? You said you were looking for them to share their thought process.. What info did you gather from them sharing their thought process?

So your presumption is that when I placed the second vote on them I was already scum reading them when their entire iso was saying "hey everyone!"
I don't think that's true, and it's assuredly not a tunnel.
I am not sure as to my full response to their thought process because I'm still asking them questions about it and haven't seen them answer yet - so it's an ongoing process. If I had to guess at their alignment I would tend to bounce it to the scum side, because I vaguely dislike non-logical conclusions. But that's including a presumption on my part that they won't have a valid answer.

If i was worried about what I looked like I would definitely not be engaging this far down the rabbit hole of clusterSmurf logic.

Well, you actually are actively complaining that I'm forcing you to go down the hole - so, clearly you *don't* wish to be here.
Also, your only other option, as scum, would be to act like I'm not here, which I assure you would end up making you look worse.
Finally, going hard emotion response in your reply tends to cloud up your answers and feels defensive to me.

My issue isn't with the method, it's with the way you're going about putting it into practice. Taking the example of LicketyQuickety's misquote, I can't see what you were hoping to gain from that besides the opportunity for casting an unwarranted aspersion on a slot.

I wanted full awareness in the thread that I believed a vote had been placed that people may not have presumed had been placed.
I also wanted to know his reaction in thinking he had messed up the quote but not seeking to clarify an unvote just in case.

I am concerned that you are trying to trip people up on things which are in no way alignment-indicative, and then using confusion or inconsistency as the pretext for scumreading or voting them.

That would be a cruel way to describe my Day 1 scumhunting - so it is exactly what I'm doing, though I would describe it as "asking people multiple questions about their logic being used in the game in order to try to spot who is making unsanctioned leaps of logic on the presumption that scum are more likely to make an action on a strategic basis rather than actually thinking out their actions"
I can show many games (really all of them) to show this is how I scumhunt, and also show that I actively consider there to be a difference between bad logic and no logic and tend to vote accordingly.

If you had picked people up over inconsistency surrounding votes and reads, we wouldn't be having this discussion; pressure over a lack of knowledge on how to play on the site, formatting mistakes, and not answering questions to which the person wasn't directed deserves being called out.

I actively disagree - the value of what can or cannot be called out shifts througout the game, no more so than Day 1, and no more so then within the first days of the game. If someone isn't willing to call people out over small things, then it is impossible to start calling people out over reads - because otherwise reads don't exist.
I now have reads that can be assessed - because I am calling out small things.
Most players do not, because they have not - that makes my playstyle, to my mind, provably superior because I'm quickening the pace to the part of the game town can actually start using to scumhunt functionally.

Why do you disagree?

I'm null-leaning-scum on Thor currently. My uncertainty stems from him conceding more than I think scum would concede, but this can lead into WIFOM. I have suspicions, but I need longer to confirm them. Luckily, it appears the game is going in a direction that will enable precisely that.

I can assure you that is a poor value call on me - my playstyle as scum is (naturally) specifically designed to mirror how I play as town. As such, my town self argues logic on Day 1. Logic tends to be a black/white issue. When you point out something that is provably wrong, I'll naturally concede it because arguing provably wrong things is both dumb as well as being scummy - and I don't like to think of myself as dumb.

My personal advice for reading me is you need to get me deeper into the game for a legit read.
Some people advocate just a quick lynch for yucks.
Others go with the Thor read method.

Take your pick.
But if I wouldn't concede things as scum, I would be required to likewise never concede things as town, and despite some of my reputation, I don't actually even remotely claim to have all the answers or to be unfallible (oh for that to be true)

Can you show me any examples of concessions working as a scumtell for you?
Seems like a playstyle tell and never alignment indicative, but you appear to buy into it as a thing even while pointing out to me issues that you think I'm picking at alignment neutral issues. Just want to see you support your belief.

[GreenNope]

Seriously, this is becoming an argument between Dewy, Lickety and Thor, rather than Thor and I.

[LicketyQuickety]

@LicketyQuickety: I would like an answer to the following:

Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?

You are talking about Impoetic.. failed to realize that at first.

Just getting to this now.. Will get to the other stuff soonish.

[LicketyQuickety]

Seriously, this is becoming an argument between Dewy, Lickety and Thor, rather than Thor and I.

What about frog?

[LicketyQuickety]

I haven't played in this competent of a newbie game in a while. Getting to frog and Thor's posts now will do frogs than the other. (every once in a while I get a newbie game like this that doesn't feel like a newbie game at all.)

[LicketyQuickety]

didn't like the bold, didn't like that Thor neither confirmed nor denied that statement.

Would you mind explaining this? In particular, do you agree or disagree with the following:

1) Randomly voting someone is common, if not usual and expected, on mafiascum, on the first few pages of Day 1.

agree.

2) Scumreading someone based entirely on them starting the first wagon is an not a viable way of approaching the game

somewhat agree.

3) Voting someone when you suspect them to be scum, excepting occasions such as them having claimed or being at L-1, is the best thing to do

Agree, but it depends on wagons. If you have a Scum read with 2 votes and a Null read with 6 votes and its near EOD, it can make things more difficult.

4) The inconsistency that GreenNope has displayed has led to them being scumread by a handful of players

agree.

[quote5) This is not optimal play for town or scum and is also easily corrected[/quote]

Don't know what this refers to. if it refers to #4 then I neither agree nor disagree. Some players you can be sure to Scum read them based on a single inconsistency.. others you have to look at other things.

6) Whether GreenNope is town or scum, they will be unlikely to repeat this behaviour in subsequent games, whether they are town or scum

I have no idea. I'm not a mind reader.

7) That Thor can be actively scumhunting and educating at the same time, and does not need to respond to a post not addressed to him, as indeed he did not?

Don't know. He doesn't HAVE to, but I'm not convinced it would be a bad idea for him to do so.

We're going to be disagreeing with each other for the rest of this game, I think. I find new players to be the most erratic precisely for the reasons you have given; they are coming with a diversity of levels of knowledge, personalities, and playstyles, some influenced by playing mafia IRL or on other websites, such that any attempt to create a universal scumtell for them is inevitably frustrated.

I believe I stated that I was talking about people who were completely new to the game. IDK maybe I read newbs differently than you, but for me, as long as they are providing actual content to the game, I think they are easier to read.

[LicketyQuickety]

Nowhere in the comment you're referring to is a vote mentioned, neither did I say that he was

specifically

educating new players, because doing that and exerting pressure are not exclusive. The context for the post was you being worried about Thor carrying the game and stifling content. Have you forgotten what you were talking about?

VCA is not my thing. I see you are correct that you didn't say it way specifically for new players. Thought it was implied because this is a newbie game. I understand they are not exclusive, but, to me, you completely gave the impression fmpov that, this being a newbie game, Thor would be catering to Newbies. Regardless, I think there is a way to do it to give correct Mafia theory without being so subtle about it. Perhaps that is just my ignorance talking IDK.

I disagree that being cryptic is necessarily a scumtell, but, regardless, you shouldn't be having any problem with my remark; don't you know who your townreads are? Why don't you know what townread I am talking about?
If you have anything you can call a 'system' it is already, in my opinion, too rigid. I wouldn't push the 'inductive reasoning' stuff too far, by the way, because, to quote you, 'this is not a good look for you.'

I don't think being cryptic HAS to be a Scum tell always and forever. I don't know anything about how you play, I have never played with you before.

Why do I have to know what Town read you are talking about in order for that to mean anything to me? Honestly, I don't really mind what my Town reads say as long as they are pushing Scum and remaining a Town read to me.

My reads are like a fighter pilot trying to lock onto the enemy.. There is a lot of things moving around that makes having a clear cut, steadily getting closer to accurate reads problematic for me. Its just not how I do it. I can be wrong as much as I'm right sometimes.

Everyone has a system for reading people if they have developed their playstyle at all.. we will disagree with this apparently.

[Thor665]

Seriously, this is becoming an argument between Dewy, Lickety and Thor, rather than Thor and I.

If you'd like to make it more about you again, you could answer my last question to you about the logic of your tell on me being a scumtell.

[Thor665]

@GreenNope

Okay - how does that make them more likely to vote second?

For instance, what if PKMSilver is scum? That would make it less likely for him to be voted by scum, yet more likely to be voted by town - making my vote a town tell, not a scum tell.
Also, as an argument, if I am scum, why would I want to do something that grabs attention (as an aggressive second vote always does) which would make it less likely for scum to place a second vote than town. Again, making it a town tell.
Also, let's say I am scum, and you are town, if someone agrees with you that I am scum for placing a second vote, and votes me - would that then make me town and them scum, forcing you to move your vote? Or does your tell only apply for the very first second vote of the game?

I don't feel like you're actually thinking this through - am I missing something?