Newbie 1761: Welcome to Mafia (Game Over)

[karldilkington]

Hi all, cheers for the random votes. I feel loved.

On MortFeld vs XnadrojX, it's been established that Xnad's vote was not 100% random in RVS which is problematic. However, to vote as such and immediately plant suspicion on yourself if you get called out for it would be a very ballsy and very pointless scum move. Although not randomly voting during RVS is rather suspicious, clearly not much thought was put into that vote, which doesn't suggest scum at all. On that basis I get the feeling this debate is town/town.

1)What kind of behaviour do you deem the scummiest (lurk/filler/whatever)?
2)What kind of behaviour would you judge as Townie ?
3)(more off-topic) What kind of roles do you think impact the game the most?

1. Semi-lurking and not being willing to throw yourself right into the centre of attention.
2. Poor logic seems most often to be Townies. Good scum will be extremely calculating and that often shows in their reasoning. It's possible for scum to manufacture bad logic, but it's also bloody difficult to make it convincing.
3. I always thought a (successful) doctor can have a massive impact as they effectively buy the Town another lynch when they prevent a Mafia kill.

I have exactly one townlean!
Yay!

Care to elaborate? Good for town to know what everyone's thoughts are.

[karldilkington]

Look Dei, I don't like RVS but honestly? Looking at it now you don't seem bad.

Unvote

This is a very quick backpedal. The second the heat was turned up on you with an actual vote, you relented immediately.

1) Deicon is more scummy because while I don't like RVS, I accept you guys do it. He went in like, aren't you gonna vote? You need to vote now.

Seems like a little bit of an exaggeration here, no?

An excellent point. It looks like Zaraki tied himself into a knot and then looked for a very quick get-out when he sensed the danger.

Care to elaborate? Good for town to know what everyone's thoughts are.

Maybe in a few more pages.

Hmm, ok. It'd better be good though, or there's gonna be questions.

[karldilkington]

Hi all, cheers for the random votes. I feel loved.

On MortFeld vs XnadrojX, it's been established that Xnad's vote was not 100% random in RVS which is problematic. However, to vote as such and immediately plant suspicion on yourself if you get called out for it would be a very ballsy and very pointless scum move. Although not randomly voting during RVS is rather suspicious, clearly not much thought was put into that vote, which doesn't suggest scum at all. On that basis I get the feeling this debate is town/town.

Not understanding this analysis. Xnad made a vote with poor justification and then tried to explain it away as random - explain why this is a ballsy and pointless scum move? And why does "little thought" behind a vote, i.e. a poor explanation for said vote, suggest town?

Let me clarify. Reading Xnad's 27, he doesn't try to explain his vote as random after the fact, he starts by claiming it's RVS but then states that it's not completely. This could be a ham-fisted scum gambit trying to draw suspicion on someone else at a very early stage but if that's true then it's way too obvious and poorly implemented. As for poor vote justification, scum will obviously be thinking very carefully about what they say. Surely they would be cleverer than putting themselves in the firing line for bad reasoning (it could of course be a double-bluff but for my stated reasons I don't think that's what Xnad is doing here.)

Look Dei, I don't like RVS but honestly? Looking at it now you don't seem bad.

Unvote

This is a very quick backpedal. The second the heat was turned up on you with an actual vote, you relented immediately.

It was a quick backpedal. Do you think it was a scummy backpedal or a towny backpedal?

On balance, given it's hastiness I would say it was a scummy backpedal. I'll let Zaraki explain himself before I start voting though.

Don't like Karl's 68 at all.

Specify.

[karldilkington]

OK, a few things to say!

Mort 76: 27 isn't the only post where Xnadroj follows that line of logic (random primary, motive secondary.) Posts 41, 42, 44, I could go on.
I'm poorly wording myself with the phrase "gambit." My point is that in post 29, by placing a "random" vote which wasn't actually random, he prematurely took us out of RVS and started shifting blame to others very quickly. Now if that is a scum move, that is godawful as it puts you straight in the spotlight, especially if your subsequent reasoning for it isn't strong. For that reason, I don't see him as a scumread.

Mort 77: So I am suspicious because I'm both buddying up to Cheetory and I'm unreasonably having a go at Cheetory?!? Taken as a whole I don't really see how the tone of that post was off. You're definitely right that 18 sticks out like a sore scummy thumb though.

Mort 78:
That's fair. My questions to Zaraki are:
1: Why cling to your vote for so long?
2: You clearly didn't care too much for your own line of reasoning concerning RVS if you were willing to drop it so fast. Why not carry on arguing for it if you thought it was important? Why did you argue for so long if you didn't think it was important?

Cheetory 99:
My scumread on Zaraki is twofold. First, as everyone agrees, he held his vote on Deimos for way too long. Secondly, and yes this is partly gut, but the speed of his backtrack hardly screams town. Surely a town who has debated the game theory for so long would be more obstinate about the whole thing. Zaraki hasn't even gone for a "fine, I'll unvote but fuck you" kind of approach, he's just tried to move himself out of suspicion as quickly as possible. Where's that Townie emotion? If I can quote the wiki:

Look for that frustration. Look for that resistance, that fight. It's often the distinguishing factor between a player knowing a player's town and not caring about the lynch (scum) and "knowing" a player's town and fighting to prove it (town).

Deimos 86: Right, I seem to have generated some controversy with that statement. I just thought it was suspicious that Cheetory isn't going to share his town reads and I can't think of any valid reasons for doing so. I thought particularly weird for him to actively announce that he's withholding townreads. Then again, he's a more experienced player than me and no one else seems bothered by it. I'm willing to believe that he's got some trick up his sleeve, but if he can't justify withholding his information adequately further on down the line, I'm ready to throw some shade his way.
As for withholding my vote despite my reasoning, I don't see why it's unreasonable. I haven't voted yet because I missed RVS and I feel waiting for Zaraki to offer a justification is worth it. If his justification is good then we should discuss it further, if it's not then it's the last piece of the puzzle. You're probably right that I've got enough to go on to make my vote right now, but now you've called me out on it, I don't know if doing that will make me look more suspicious or not! I best just stick to my reasoning for now.

[karldilkington]

Already found scum, thought this game would be harder.
VOTE: Cheetory

Ok, so it isn't just me then!

[karldilkington]

Mort 77: So I am suspicious because I'm both buddying up to Cheetory and I'm unreasonably having a go at Cheetory?!? Taken as a whole I don't really see how the tone of that post was off. You're definitely right that 18 sticks out like a sore scummy thumb though.

Hm? Your post was off for buddying and it was off for unreasonable aggressiveness. This isn't like acid/base reactions - they don't magically cancel each other out. I didn't say I was suspicious of you for that post, I just said it was off. That's true even if you're hot and cold on the same person. I can make a post saying "SCREW YOU X PERSON" and in the same post say "X Person, everything you say is so right!" and that post is certainly still off in tone.

That's a fair enough point I suppose. What do you think of my thoughts on Cheetory? Don't you find that a bit strange for him to declare to everyone that he's withholding townreads? Fair enough to wait on certain thoughts to see if your suspicions play out, but there's nothing to gain from telling everyone that's what you're doing. You just make yourself look unhelpful. It's almost something scum would do to look busy.

[karldilkington]

Yes the players this game have been surprisingly easy to read.

Would you mind giving us a break down of what you're thinking?

[karldilkington]

I can think of another reason for why scum would breadcrumb a townlean. I can also think of one for why town would do so. Do you think Cheetory was scum trying to look busy? And, why do you think scum would volunteer a weird half townlean when few other people had given any reads?

I agree breadcrumbing is a poor scum move given they would surely be better off by straight offering up other people's names for investigation. That way they would appear far more useful and keep the eye off themselves. I don't think Cheetory trying to look busy was necesarily his motive, but I'm still stumped as to why town would be coy about their townreads. Maybe he was deflecting the heat from himself in the short term with promises of strong reads further down the line? Regardless, I'll withhold further judgement to see what he comes up with.

[karldilkington]

I feel better about Zaraki after his explanation. I am also a little surprised that Xnad has continued to go for him after a pretty thorough justification. Honestly, I'm struggling to follow Xnad's concerns, he's digging rather deep to keep the case up about Zaraki.

I'll give Algebra a townread because I think those are some fairly solid town reads.
It seems a bit odd that Clem only speaks when he's spoken to, but that's NAI I suppose.

Oh, great. I'm getting scumread in my very first town game on this site. Lovely. If you were to mislynch me today, please remember that it's your own faults for misreading me whilst I'm here playing the best I can. I don't want any: "Oh, it's his fault because he was like playing bad and stuff!"

@Mort. I'm tired of your games. You didn't even rephrase the question. Look, it was gut! Something super complicated about that which you don't understand?

Wow, this is very snippy for some fairly simple questions. Nobody was saying anything about lynching you.
I mentioned earlier that I found in the wiki how expressing frustration is more of a towntell than a scumtell, but this particular outburst seems too out of place.