Newbie 1795 | Summer | Endgame

[jjh927]

First

[jjh927]

There's someone who understands that being third is not an accomplishment. Very good.

A wagon would be nice. I don't mind it being on me.

[jjh927]

VOTE: jjh927

Sure

[jjh927]

VOTE: jjh927

OMGIS

[jjh927]

It has to or it doesn't escalate at all

[jjh927]

Yeah, I reckon this mug will crack if we introduce more pressure

[jjh927]

Quickhammering someone like that would be a scumclaim. Feel free to put me on L-1.

[jjh927]

Also I'm gonna assume we're doing the BP/not BP thing, but we can leave that to later in the day so we actually get an RVS and talk and get some reads that aren't disturbed by the whole thing

[jjh927]

I'm just new to mafiascum, not to mafia as a whole.

[jjh927]

Speaking of experience, Fykus, you're an SE so you should be quite aware that quickhammering would basically be a scumclaim.

I see a poor attempt to obtain towncred.

VOTE: Fykus

[jjh927]

These things will be explained better when the IC pops up, because it's actually their job to explain them, but I'll give it a go.

RVS means Random Voting Stage, which is the typical early stage of day 1. Basically, you vote people seemingly randomly with logic taken out of your anus in order to progress the gamestate. It gets people talking. You start voting people for bullshit reasons, and, as the stage goes by, your reasons become less and less crap and more backed by logic and reasoning. As that happens, you start to attach more real pressure to your votes, and start actually figuring out who is town and who is scum. You can't have that buildup if you don't start somewhere, so it starts with random votes. It's all about reactions.

L-1 means 1 more vote and a lynch happens. L-X means X more votes and a lynch happens.

[jjh927]

I have completed 0 games on MS.

This is a serious point though and I would like a response, rather than this just being RVS. If you truly believed that scum might quickhammer me then why didn't you put me on L-1? Trading a town for a scum is extremely worthwhile.

[jjh927]

I've played offsite.

Also I believe your exact words were "in case scum decide to pull a fast one", not anything about town accidentally hammering.

[jjh927]

Oh and hell no I wouldn't claim at L-1 during RVS. Being put to L-1 is not something I want, however your reasoning for not bringing me there is flaky and does not hold up to scrutiny.

[jjh927]

You saying you didn't want to put me on L-1 was a cheap and slightly deceptive way of getting free towncred

[jjh927]

I've played matrix6 off site with someone who plays here a lot.

[jjh927]

Uugh, fine. It's a yugioh forum. http://www.duelacademy.net/t49649-da-ma ... -game-over

That's a trick question. Inklings are neither kid nor squid, but something inbetween.

[jjh927]

I mean, if you can use the heart of the cards to get the right card at the right time then presumably yes. I personally opt for a mixture of logic and psychology

[jjh927]

[jjh927]

I fail to see how asking questions nets towncred

[jjh927]

Gonna have to go with no. Asking questions is not alignment indicative, nor does it net towncred, nor does it provide reason to doubt their newbie status.

[jjh927]

The subtext of your curiosity there implies that you would rather I didn't? I am attacking a poor argument and seeing where the conversation goes after that.

[jjh927]

I know what I'm doing with regards to tone.

And not really. I don't see how an argument built on nothing is remotely interesting when we're already moving away from RVS. I tend to formulate my reads based primarily on my own interactions with people, so expect me to be fairly active in responding to people.

What did you think of my earlier interactions with Fykus?

[jjh927]

Hey, you're right about the third vote being perhaps something worthy of questioning, but that bit came after

[jjh927]

What about her other question? What was going through your mind at the time when you voted me? What were you after?

[jjh927]

On that note I'm gonna shift my vote.

VOTE: Yourenotmydad

Quit with the lurking. You've posted but said post lacked substance. Come out of the shadows and speak.

[jjh927]

If you want people to post more, then ask them questions. Get the ball rolling.

[jjh927]

There are two players who got replaced in and have yet to post, which we can't really fault them for. The guy I'm voting posted once, and didn't really contribute anything with that post.

[jjh927]

Yeah, I already did that thing and pushed down that line. I think we need more things to happen. Fykus is a scumlean for me based on that stuff but I don't think we're gonna get anywhere from pushing that any further. We need more talking to occur so we get more content to push.

I will return to pushing Fykus when we're further out of RVS, mind.

[jjh927]

On the flipside, it's good to see I'm not insane for picking at that post. Zito specifically said there was nothing interesting in that whole interaction so I'm gonna be considering them as a possible pair.

[jjh927]

I have to disagree there. Voting without saying why is the most basic form of pressure vote. The problem is that he hasn't followed up on the pressure at all, from which you could suggest Zito is feigning that he is scumhunting.

[jjh927]

Oh my bad I think I misread what you said

[jjh927]

Uh, yeah. You've not done anything of even remote relevance yet.

[jjh927]

I mean, this is a newbie game, but you've dived straight after the lowest hanging fruit active in the game and poked them a little. The advantage of pressuring LHF in the RVS is that they're likely to respond in some way shape or form that you can then push and get responses out of and that gets the game running, but I don't think you've made a significant effort to do that.

[jjh927]

Ad iram. Attack my argument and not my credibility, please.

[jjh927]

You've voted Cero for pressure purposes and done a little bit of poking around.

That's where there's already an inconsistency. Scumhunting takes a balance of the two forms of pressure one can exert- the vote, and the verbal case. You placed your vote but have done nothing if anything that actively pushes the second agenda. You have not asked the kind of questions that elicit responses that can go places. Thus, you are not scumhunting, but merely asking questions to make it seem as though you are doing so.

If you are to refute this, then tell me the purpose of the questions you have asked so far. What did you hope to gain in the way of that which can be pushed?



Secondly, you are treating our little conversation here differently to how I am. An ad hominen attack followed by that beautiful statement "I don't want the kids to think you actually have a point" is blatant posturing, by its very definition. You are trying to discredit me as a player and affirm yourself in a position of authority. You are trying to lead the other players away from my argument. It's deception.

[jjh927]

Speaking of the balance of those two forms of pressure, let's crank it up a notch.

VOTE: Papa Zito

[jjh927]

I think you've misunderstood what I was saying when I myself was misunderstanding you. Zito is the person I do not think has followed up on pressure.

I was kinda going for the real-time 1V1 but he seems to have vanished.

[jjh927]

The issue all comes from your post 96, where you quoted a post and then made a point related to a different post.

[jjh927]

1. Are you sure I voted just for "pressure purposes"? You seem to have indicated earlier you didn't know why I placed my vote.
2. There's no One True Way to Play. I have my own style and by and large it works for me. I'm going to ask the questions I want to ask and I'm going to question the players I want to question. I'm not going to start playing a different way to suit your tastes. And I sure as hell am not interested in making cases on page 5.
3. This is what I meant earlier about your setting arbitrary expectations and then saying I fail them. womp womp
4. I refuse to answer this question.
5. Nah. It's my years of experience recognizing that the dumb stuff I normally can ignore in games with vet players I have to actually address here because new players often get persuaded by the guy who's making the most noise. We can call it Zito's Newbie Lament.
6. Well yeah, duh, of course I'm leading people away from your arguments, your arguments are all really bad. I'm not trying to deceive anyone here, I'm blatantly calling them terrible and saying why. I don't really relish the idea of having to defend myself from a constant stream of poor attacks when I'm trying to get shit done.

1. Yes. That was a pressure vote in its purest form.
2. Indeed, but your playstyle here does not seem to be one that gets things done. It is like using a hammer to clear leaves.
3. My arbitrary expectations are quite clearly defined. You know how to scumhunt. Therefore, you should be using questions that are in some way apt for the purpose of progressing the gamestate away from RVS. You haven't done this.
4. Then you're not refuting the point.
5/6. Ad hominem is never a valid means of debate and your experience does not make you town. If my arguments are as bad as you say then they should have a glaring and addressable flaw.

[jjh927]

I'd quite like to see Fykus case me tbh. I personally prefer to place people with 1V1s.

[jjh927]

Fykus-

Wagons are good for analysis, even early ones.

There are 3 people who know my alignment, however 2 of them want me to die.

From my perspective, a wagon on me is one that was on someone I know to be town and can be analysed as such.

[jjh927]

Oh shit, in that case let's kick it off in 2-3 IRL days?

[jjh927]

If we get too hung up on it now then less scumhunting will occur.

[jjh927]

2 of those setups scum know there isn't a BP and can't do the claim. It's actually a 1/4 that they might be able to safely fakeclaim BP. However, that's still a losing play.

The primary purpose is that scum can't fakeclaim BP later in the game.

Seriously would prefer to stay off of this for a couple days though, as I said. I'll happily answer questions if anyone has any doubts when we actually do it.



Kawl, where are you at opinions-wise?

[jjh927]

I kind of like Fykus' case on me tbh, but only because I think it was built to see how I react. I don't see it as a case rooted in real opinions. He's a scumlean but I'll let you guys push him because I need to work on placing other people more. I've only really got scumreads rn.

PEdit: Oh, I agree with Zito there.

[jjh927]

Honestly, I do that a lot. Being wrong gets reactions too and I think it's in town's best interests to just say what you think.

[jjh927]

I don't think I really class as a third party in Fykus' case on me. It is kinda on me.

[jjh927]

Your wagon right now is Tchill and Kawl, right? I haven't placed Tchill properly but he's a townlean, and Kawl is null. I mean, it's a 2 person wagon. 0-1 scum, leaning 0.

Why haven't you made more of an effort to push me and follow up on your case?

[jjh927]

Oh yeah, speaking of Zito, I don't need this anymore.

UNVOTE: Papa Zito

[jjh927]

I guess now is a good time to respond to

ay yo jj, how many scum do you reckon are on my wagon?

And this reaction is why I think showing your hand in that earlier post is a poor way to play. You've shown that you think Fykus is running a honey pot with a deliberately bad argument, so when any pressure builds on him he can naturally turn to you and act like that was his intent all along and he's been successful now.

See, if I offer an explanation for motives and it is taken, then we have a new angle to push, and it's a relatively easy one from a scumhunting perspective. Also consider that scum looking to justify their reasoning post-hoc might be happy to take a suggestion like that without really thinking about how that might backfire.

[jjh927]

I think he's pushing people who it makes sense to push. He's a townlean. I need to really disagree with him on something in order to actually get a good read, though. There haven't been enough players floating around if you ask me.

[jjh927]

Okay, let's talk about the stategy, Kawl.

What do you not like about it?


Also Fykus is an actual scumread now but I want some time to place everyone else in the game before I move on lynching him.

[jjh927]

That's a legitimate concern and also the reason why I was pushing this to later, but I do believe we need to do this if we're playing to win.

However, I think we can get this done efficiently and get right back into scumhunting, provided people are active. Things end up getting slowed down when someone disagrees.


We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.

[jjh927]

Let's wait for his next post

[jjh927]

If he's bullshitting here about the BP claim then he derailed the discussion and caused us to wait for him to post to continue it. Speaking of, he's done nothing to benefit discussion so far and really hasn't been all that active, so I'm not too happy about the idea of him delaying the active part of the game. It also could have caused someone to counterclaim.

[jjh927]

Bit early to say anything though because it might be a legit claim.

Tbh I'll be disappointed if it is though because so far he's barely been active at all. By the looks of things, anyone else in the game would make a better conftown.

[jjh927]

Elaborate?

[jjh927]

I don't think we've netted anything, really.

If Not_Mafia was shitposting then he's dug himself a gigantic hole, aided by the JCB of policy lynching and general scummy behaviour, but I don't think we've got anywhere there.

Kawl's objection to the strategy is valid and if you don't think so then actually push him for it rather than whatever it is you're doing.

[jjh927]

Arnold, if he was shitposting and someone counterclaimed it would be a disaster.

I think the main thing to take away here is that NM has hardly had any presence in the game whatsoever, and now that he is conftown I would REALLY like to see that change.

[jjh927]

Wait what are you on about there, Tchill?

[jjh927]

Not Mafia is almost certain to be telling the truth.

If he is not, then 5/6 setups have someone who can counterclaim. In setups 3 and A, the true BP would counterclaim. In 2, B and C, a counterclaim could come from a cop or a doctor. Only setup 1 allows for a fake BP claim, so it's completely inadvisable for mafia to fakeclaim it.

Speaking of counterclaims, if anyone actually DOES have a counterclaim, do not reveal your role. Just say you're counterclaiming. In that case, we would lynch NM right off the bat.

[jjh927]

I am going to make sure you understand what is being said here, Tchill-

You are one of the following; a one-shot BP, a cop, or a doctor?

[jjh927]

Okay, now this is not something I would have predicted happening at all.

Here's what happens, though. We lynch Not_Mafia. If he's a BP then we're gonna lynch Tchill the next day. Pretty much no questions asked.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[jjh927]

Btw I would have no issues whatsoever with anyone wanting to hammer here, because I can't see what else could possibly be said to change how we go about this. NM was very clear that they were claiming BP and not bullshitting, and Tchill has affirmed that he understands the circumstances under which he can counterclaim. Thus, one of them must be scum and I am inclined to side with the counterclaimer.

[jjh927]

Uh, what? NM, if you're the BP we will be lynching Tchill tomorrow. Nobody else needs to counterclaim.

[jjh927]

Trading the bulletproof for a scum is definitely in town's best interests.

[jjh927]

There will be no rolefishing if you're telling the truth. Nothing holds up. Scum!Tchill would have no logical reason to counterclaim, because scum!Tchill doing so would put town in a better position.

For the record, there shouldn't be any rolefishing if you aren't telling the truth either. Because we'll have got a day 1 scum for revealing a PR, specifically one who hadn't even said whether or not they're the BP.

[jjh927]

Because you would have a 25% chance of it being a safeclaim in a goon/goon setup and you gambled because you don't like the BP claim strategy, and scum fakeclaiming successfully might put an end to it?

I don't know, that's insanely contrived, but so is Tchill's motive.

[jjh927]

Like, one of the two of you is not playing a logical game. I see a mafia sacrificing themself to get a one-shot BP as the day 1 lynch to be incredibly unlikely, and even less so for one who has hardly spoken or made an effort to scumhunt. The gambling at a fakeclaim motive is pretty unlikely, but it's absolutely plausible in comparison.

[jjh927]

But NM, there's no real argument to be had here.

1 of you must be playing illogically and we have to follow that to its conclusion.

Give me an actual reason why I should choose your version of that conclusion.

[jjh927]

Why are you a better risk to take than Tchill?


If you are to be believed, you are a one-shot BP. You would be conftown if we lynched Tchill and he was scum.

If Tchill is to be believed, he is one of a one-shot BP, a cop or a doctor. He would be conftown if we lynched you and you were scum.

Let's say there's absolutely no difference in the motives we can construct, and we're looking at a 50/50 either way. How would town!you be more useful than town!Tchill? Look at what we're risking for the same potential gain.

[jjh927]

Oh, for the record, since this has become more of a discussion that I am interested in, I am going to
UNVOTE: Not_Mafia
in the interests of delaying hammer. I would like to see everyone in the game's reaction to this discussion before we lynch anyone. My personal preference at this point in time is to lynch NM today.

[jjh927]

That's not an argument that cements you as the better risk to take here. Your argument there follows circular reasoning and we won't actually get any further than "He's wrong and I'm right" if we take that from either of you.

It is obvious that we want to make the right decision. The matter at hand is that there is no way of knowing for sure what that is, and thus we are to take a risk.

[jjh927]

You're trying to prove that he is the scum, except your argument is based on the premise that you are not scum.

[jjh927]

From what we know, we actually have a number of possibilities. 40% of his scenario is the exact same, 40% of it he is cop (with half of that having him as the only town PR role), and 20% of it he is a doctor. In all of those scenarios, if we lynch you, he comes out the other end conftown too.

How is that weaker on PR alone?

[jjh927]

I think he's on L-1 again. Don't hammer without at least declaring intent, please.

[jjh927]

Honestly, I'm not even considering that a possibility because fakeclaiming a PR as a VT is almost invariably one of the worst possible moves you could make.

[jjh927]

I think it's almost impossible for this to be scum v scum. They'd both have to be on board with this strategy... without having a daychat.

[jjh927]

NM, making a lot of similarly sounding noise is not a convincing argument. Based on PR stuff, lynching Tchill would be more of a risk. Based on actually being useful in the day, lynching Tchill would be more of a risk. He was making an effort to actually scumhunt and talk to people while you did fuck all.

It's arguable that you claimed BP in order to actually get something for the scumteam, because you figured you were probably going to be the lynch for today anyway.

[jjh927]

Oh yeah, and there's that from Tchill. He actually accepts that scum counterclaiming in this position would be stupid and put town in a stronger position, whereas you tried to argue that somehow it wouldn't. Just that logic being thrown around implies to me that NM must be the one approaching the gamestate illogically here, and the illogical one must be scum because this scenario wouldn't have played out otherwise.

[jjh927]

You know I'm not actually sure I care about hearing what the other people would say here any more, because it's not even remotely useful. The second scum would bus scum!NM here, or be in favour of lynching town!NM because under these circumstances anyone could be held pretty much unaccountable.

[jjh927]

I'm happy to hammer too but I think it might be worth at least waiting for the IC to show up

[jjh927]

Why would scum counterclaim?

PEdit: I'm not. It's just posts on this are definitely not alignment indicativen when if you'd handled this intelligently then they might have been.

[jjh927]

Look, NM, your argument seems to hinge on "Scum wouldn't do what I did", but clear-thinking scum wouldn't do what Tchill did either. So one of you is both illogical and scum. "Scum wouldn't do this" is not an argument here, because we're specifically looking for the perpetrator of something no sensible scum would do.

[jjh927]

Your reasoning for why Tchill would do that involves scum thinking a 1 for 1 trade is good though, does it not? Unless scum would somehow get a better deal?

[jjh927]

No, that's not what I said. Answer what I said.

Scum counterclaiming here kills 1 town and 1 scum in the long run. Do you think that is good for town or good for scum?

[jjh927]

Your argument there hinges on that crucial point "if we lynch scum today". And getting into a 1V1 based on PR counterclaims as scum is the number 1 way to get yourself lynched early on. It doesn't remove a scenario; it makes it more likely. Neither of the PRs that go alongside bodyguard are particularly dangerous to a scum pair.

[jjh927]

Oh, and Tchill was not in danger of being lynched at all. I think a good number of people townread him even before this fiasco.

[jjh927]

No, him CCing as scum guarantees his lynch by day 2.

Oh, how does him CCing draw out the other power roles btw? The tracker or jailor that you believe motivate these actions through fear?

[jjh927]

Great, your self-consistent narrative builds at my suggestion.

You are now arguing that Tchill decided to 1 for 1 in order to bus himself so that his partner would not be lynched day 1. The only person in any form of danger was Fykus, possibly? But yeah, this is totally ridiculous and I think you've been humoured long enough.


Intent to hammer. I'll do it in about 24 hours or so. Mainly just waiting for Zito to appear though.


PEdit: The other PR will NOT claim. It's not necessary at all.

[jjh927]

Nobody is, but Fykus suggested that if this keeps on going then they might. Which is just flat out wrong.

[jjh927]

How the fuck do you PoE for townreads

[jjh927]

"Waah nobody agreed with me"

Your arguments were close to terrible and your general tone was obnoxious. If you're town here you need to work on your people skills

[jjh927]

Shit, I was gonna start pushing Fykus now.

We are in setup 2. Tchill must be a cop based on how he could counterclaim NM and he is not a doctor, as Fykus was the doctor.

Tchill is conftown but sadly will not be doing anything else since he'll be roleblocked every night.

VOTE: Papa Zito

[jjh927]

Holy shit you're right, this creates a contradiction in NM's motive

[jjh927]

I mean, if this whole thing is an elaborate scum V scum ploy then they just failed it by hitting a PR N1, so I'm still not gonna consider that unless someone counterclaims Tchill- in which case town win.

[jjh927]

Think about what we know regardless of motive shit though. We are in either setup C or setup 2, because of the doctor flip. Tchill is a PR. If Tchill was tracker, then he couldn't have counterclaimed BP. Therefore, It's setup 2 and Tchill is a cop, and scum have a roleblocker.

Conclusion: Not Mafia is bad at mafia.


Aside note: I would be pushing the hell out of Fykus right now because he was the first to ask if NM was shitposting, which with the benefit of the lynch's flip seemed like an escape hatch. However, doctor!Fykus had a very good reason to check that it was not shitposting. His reaction there was likely what gave him away to scum.

[jjh927]

I checked his iso. There's nothing. I'm thinking scum must be someone who was able to piece it together from how Fykus asked if NM was shitposting.

[jjh927]

This is why I'm currently down for lynching the IC.

PEdit: Not Mafia's actions clearly make no sense whatsoever, as we must be in setup 2, meaning scum knew BP was not a safeclaim. I don't think it's worth discussing how bad claiming BP there was.

On the other hand, it seems to have netted scum both PRs, but we got a day 1 scum lynch so it's still very much worth imo.

[jjh927]

Catching up on stuff.

What is there to catch up on that's worth posting about it?

[jjh927]

Tchill, can you confirm you're a cop and that we are in setup 2 just for the sake of confirmation?

[jjh927]

Tchill could not have counterclaimed if he was a tracker. Fykus was a doctor, so the other power role is either tracker or cop. Therefore, Tchill is a cop.

Eat syllogism!

Anyway, I'm after Zito because I wasn't too convinced by his posts in our 1V1 and I'm making the assumption that he is the most likely to note Fykus' behaviour with regards to doubting NM's claim and relate it to him being a PR.


PEdit: You can still read a locked thread.

[jjh927]

Yeah this is bullshit from Zito. The argument that follows from his behaviour here is that he can't be scum because he wasn't caught up on the game.

[jjh927]

UNVOTE: Papa Zito

I honestly didn't think I'd be dropping this push so fast but that's a completely legitimate response in a very short window, and my earlier stance regarding being up to date on the game applies.

VOTE: Kawl

[jjh927]

Yes.

[jjh927]

Zito, how would the scum be more likely to recognise that as a signal than to just figure out that Fykus was the other PR by themself?

[jjh927]

Tbf, I think the reason he didn't hammer there was because I said not to

[jjh927]

Everyone except Zito who was not on that wagon was down to hammer NM. We can pretty much just treat it as a huge wagon from which we gain almost nothing.

[jjh927]

I would legitimately be treating anyone who sided with NM as conftown right now. That is how little towncred hammering NM gets you.

[jjh927]

Yeah I'm done fucking about with Kawl. That little exchange was hilarious but I mainly wanted other people to comment on it.

That's a legitimate concern and also the reason why I was pushing this to later, but I do believe we need to do this if we're playing to win.

However, I think we can get this done efficiently and get right back into scumhunting, provided people are active. Things end up getting slowed down when someone disagrees.


We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.

I understand kawls reluctance to the strategy. Either way it's a good idea. Not BP. Unless not_mafia confirms pretty soon he's not shit posting I feel like we should lynch him.

Why the sudden call for lynch, you two? You weren't voting him before, and I seriously doubt that shitposting (this way, anyway) is a huge scumtell.

VOTE: Cece

[jjh927]

Cece's iso is kinda smelly if I'm honest

[jjh927]

Do you want me to case? I want to make myself some burritos, but I could probably case either before or after

[jjh927]

Spoiler: Case on Cece

Fykus is an obvious alt, so I'm curious to see what he'll do.

I think Cece is an alt

Also this is a thing. Not sure why. Wouldn't it be funny if they were mafia together?

This is a lovely bit of shading.

I reckon we should probs wait to see if he's shitposting before anyone else confirms/unconfirms.

Also, NM, why claim now? I thought we'd been saying that we'd not do it for a while, if we did.

Vote is staying on til NM replies.

This is some unnecessary yet active participation in the discussion immediately following NM's claim. The thing is, that first point had been said already and that second point is redundant.

That's a legitimate concern and also the reason why I was pushing this to later, but I do believe we need to do this if we're playing to win.

However, I think we can get this done efficiently and get right back into scumhunting, provided people are active. Things end up getting slowed down when someone disagrees.


We may already have a resolution. If Not_Mafia is telling the truth then we're already done. If he was just shitposting then he is seriously getting lynched.

I understand kawls reluctance to the strategy. Either way it's a good idea. Not BP. Unless not_mafia confirms pretty soon he's not shit posting I feel like we should lynch him.

Why the sudden call for lynch, you two? You weren't voting him before, and I seriously doubt that shitposting (this way, anyway) is a huge scumtell.

I grabbed this post a bit earlier. This is really scummy with knowledge of the flip, IMO. It's important to note we weren't calling for an immediate lynch there, and, more importantly, Cece had been voting NM for some time before this. The particular way she goes about defending someone she has a vote on here feels really off.




Then she goes and misses most of the NM V Tchill discussion. Not necessarily AI, but it's worth noting she stayed out of it from here until the end.

Ok wow lol, brill. One scum caught. Hooray!

Staying on NM. Read him as mafia before. Although I don't really understand the motivation of the scum here, either NM or tchill.

Also I read tchill's response to NM claiming - that is, checking if he's shitposting, then checking the BP strategy, then claiming, as town. I think perhaps scum would've been more cautious.

Just in case, in the intervening time between now and hammer, please nobody claim to support either of the two. We'll be lynching a scum either way, so, not optimal play hey.

I don't read any of this post as even remotely sincere. It's really really off. There's the celebration at the start, there's the stating of the obvious, and there's the last sentence which I find really weird and somewhat nonsensical.

That should be all.

[jjh927]

The BP strategy is completely NAI. It's pretty much just the done thing now.

PEdit: Completely agree with what Zito said.

[jjh927]

Cece did not side with NM. She was ostensibly against him and then soft-defended him. There's a huge difference.

[jjh927]

If Zito was jumping on a case for towncred he'd be with me on the Cece wagon

[jjh927]

For the record Zito, I'm staying out of your push on Kawl for the same reason as you're staying out of mine on Cece.



Cece- who is your main scumread right now?

[jjh927]

Actually, I am gonna jump in here.

I think there's definitely something to be said about not wanting to participate. Let's say everyone else goes through with the strategy except one person, who will then be convinced to claim anyway.

People market the strategy by saying the chance of scum landing a successful fake claim is 1/6. But as it's impossible when they have a roleblocker, they only do it when they have 2 goons, giving them a 1/4. Back to where I was-

If the last person to claim not BP is scum, then they know there's no BP in the game, meaning their fakeclaim chances are 1/3.


Not wanting to participate can definitely be spun as scummy if you think they're following through on that. Obviously doesn't apply here as there is a roleblocker.

[jjh927]

Speaking of Tchill, he still hasn't confirmed he's cop for the sake of confirmation.

I'd like him to do that.

[jjh927]

Tchill, right now you are all-but-confirmed as cop. If by some manner of ridiculousness you are not, you would need to reveal that now.

Cece, my understanding is that "shading" refers to when you try to loosely imply someone is scum or suggest that they are without making any direct accusations or stating your opinions wholesale.


Now, the case with that is that, knowing that NM was scum, you figured you'd throw in a bit of early shade on Zito, linking the two. On that note, the person you would be trying to get lynched today would be Zito. Funny that, isn't it?

[jjh927]

Oh god I may have been grammatically correct but I butchered that with ambiguity and commas.

Lemme rephrase that by telling you not to read the words "Now, the case with that is that"

[jjh927]

jj, I'd like to hear your read on Cece and Zito.

I cased Cece and have a vote on her. Guess.

Zito is town.


Why did you ask me about Cece?

[jjh927]

Scum is either Cece and Arnold.

People trying to push Zito are basically just patting each other on the back and not saying anything that actually indicates he's scum. Also I like how he was making an effort to gamesolve before he had to start defending himself against arguments with no merit.

I'm not a big fan of how he's made his townreads, but the case on Kawl is alright. I just don't think Kawl is scum because of how first-hand interactions have gone. Zito's attitude/tone has been consistent within itself so I don't see any issue with his style of play. It's actually how he is playing, as opposed to him explaining it away as such.


So yeah, Zito is the mislynch target for scum right now, because they'd expect him to be more clued in than the other players on scumhunting and there's not going to be a better opportunity to get him lynched than today, when a couple of people had lingering suspicions on him.

[jjh927]

Oh, I just put "and" instead of "or". Should still be understandable.

[jjh927]

How was Zito gamesolving? You said it yourself, you're not a fan of how he makes his townreads. I don't think that matches with your gamesolving arguments.
If you're townreading Kawl too, that means you disagree with his only scumread too.

This looks like you're whiteknighting Zito to look good when he flips town.

How is Zito a mislynch target after there were already cases on Cece and Kawl?

VOTE: Arnold Schwarzenegger

First up, it doesn't matter that I disagree with the way he's doing it. It's the fact that he is doing it and he is sincere about it that makes it AI.

Next up, if you want to accuse me of being scum then say it rather than trying to get me to back off of Zito.

Finally, there were no cases on Cece and Kawl at the start of the day.


But yeah, the second point you made there reeks of scum. You're trying to get me to back off. If you made it sincerely you wouldn't be continuing to vote Zito. Oh, and the whole "when he flips town" bit is amusing. Your narrative has completely changed to fit a new circumstance.

[jjh927]

I like the fact that you've pushed there but don't really like your push. You're still a scumlean, Cece, and I think you're wrong, but you're not my main scumread any more so you've got that going for you. I won't say anything else so Zito can actually respond.

[jjh927]

I can disagree with someone's logic and like the overall tone and purpose the act of sharing it conveys. Town can make bad pushes. So can scum. It's just scum do them knowing that they're false, whereas town believe them to be true.

And the first two votes were not on Kawl and Cece. That's just the first votecount. Using that as evidence means your logic is based off of post-hoc justifications that disregard something you experienced first-hand, because you responded to the actual first posts and votes of today. This is logic I can objectively disprove which has scum methodology behind it. Town don't need to rationalise their argument after they've made it, because they make their arguments with true conviction behind them rather than having to insert it afterwards. You did. Therefore you are scum.

[jjh927]

I guess I haven't made clear that I like the tone and the conviction behind Cece's push? You might note that Cece went down from scumread to scumlean after she made it? Also, this idea that I'm scumreading Cece for the push is total bullshit, because I was scumreading her for this pile of things in a case I made and a couple of reactions. Don't put words in my mouth. Don't argue things that never happened. You've argued a number of things that never happened btw.

I have already explained why scum would go for a Zito mislynch now. This was the best opportunity they were going to get to get to make Zito the mislynch. And no, I'm not townreading him just for the case. Don't spin this into a one-issue thing when there's a number of reasons I could give for why Zito is town.



You got really bad feelings about me suddenly because I'm capable of casing you, am voting you, and scumread you. You are scum. Where is the scum motivation in me defending Zito?

[jjh927]

Tchill is correct. Arnold, I have no clue how you still fail to understand when I've repeated it to you.

Let's make this as clear as it can possibly be.

I scumread Cece BEFORE she made her push, yes? You still following? Okay, so after she made the push, that went down to a scumlean. That tends to imply that I started to consider her more as town and less as scum, just she's not out of the water yet. As I'm fairly sure you're aware, there are a number of other reasons for my reads on Cece and Zito, and there is no way anyone should have reads based on single posts at this point in the game.

[jjh927]

Oh yeah, and Tchill, I don't know if you also have this misconception that I'm scumreading Cece for her push that Arnold seems to have. But I'm not. Both Zito and Cece's pushes came off as towny to me.

Again, let me clarify that the differences in the reads there is because Cece has done a bunch of other scummy stuff whereas I don't think Zito has. Also the pushes on Zito rn suck.

[jjh927]

So, yeah I was voting Zito D1, but that was primarily an attempt to break free of RVS. Also I place people by 1V1s.

We're at day 2 now. There's a lot of stuff on other people that can actually be considered objectively scummy rather than just kinda maybe stuff you could make a flawed case out of to get conversation running. People trying to mislynch Zito want the momentum from that.

[jjh927]

Oh yeah, on the placing people with 1V1s note- Arnold; if you actually find me suspicious and aren't just testing the waters as to whether or not you're allowed to discredit or even scumread me, then talk to me.

[jjh927]

We have multiple sensible lynches, so we don't really need to be approaching this like that. Arnold really ought to be today's lynch tbh.

We're 6-1 atm. We have 2 lynches and scum have 2 night kills before LyLo. Me being townread and useful as I am, I'm one of the likely night kills. Tchill being conftown, he's another. If Zito gets townread by a couple more people then he's maybe a third possibility for a nightkill.

Cero will almost certainly get to LyLo because we have better lynches to do and scum have much better night kills. I am fairly confident we have a good townblock in me, Zito and Tchill, and scum can only kill 2 of us. If we can accept that Cero is town, then town will win.




Cero, at some point today I'm going to play devil's advocate and case you. It doesn't matter that I'm telling you this because your responses are going to have to be genuine; that is, me playing devil's advocate is to get your reactions, and if I don't like those reactions then the scumread that follows will be quite real.

[jjh927]

I mean,

Spoiler: Day 1 part of Cero case

That escalated quickly.

Okay, so this is your second post and it's a comment on how we had a 2 person wagon on me going at the start, with me as the second person. This can be construed as a vague attempt at humour and acting as though you're playing a role in the game at this early point; the fact that this comment exists seems to suggest you were not at all familiar with the random voting stage, and yet you don't seem to comment at all as to what any behaviour here could imply. Many people unfamiliar with RVS would even question the core concept behind it- why was Not Mafia throwing his vote around so wildly? But you don't question it, which is possibly indicative of you being scum alongside Not Mafia, as you did not want to bring early attention to yourself or him.

Following this, you actually join in on voting me. This is pretty much NAI so I'm not going to talk about that besides a quick mention.

Also to I just read the part about why vote for it, I thought he might have some sort of plan and it was safe enough to see what it would be.

This reasoning is totally shoddy, and possibly alignment indicative when you consider that it was scum he was going along with there. I find it quite reasonable that scum!Cero would be more inclined to indulge the perceived plan of a fellow scum without questioning it at all, whereas I don't see why town!Cero wouldn't just ask what NM was planning if he actually thought he was planning something with a possible positive impact.

I wanted to get a feel for the other not so active players. Mind you it is just the second day that this game started, but more information is better.

In context, deflecting attention from himself and NM.

Hey Everyone,

Finished reading the last couple of days of post. And here are some of my thoughts:

I'm a little wary of tchill13 since it seems to me from his post that he keeps changing his vote whenever there is a new argument presented for one of the other players. This only makes me suspicious because it seems that he might be trying to gain trust in jumping in bandwagons, but that only makes me suspicious of his actions.

On that note, I feel like Not_Mafia's last post are really strange. I don't see what's the problem with having an alt account since from what I read on the wiki it's encourage a bit for players to create one if it's not used in shifty ways so why keep calling it out. Also on that note who cares since we are still playing the game and it doesn't affect the game state besides trying shift peoples perceptions of how that person will play. There might be a reason for these kinds of post especially if he's an SE and I would hope he would have developed more as a player due to his experience. Papa Zito posted that he has his own play style and Not_Mafia might be doing something similar, but his actions with Cece makes me think he's scum. So...

VOTE: Not_Mafia

That said I still don't understand why you didn't join jj instead of just flat unvoting. If you're attempting to pressure lurkers into posting why not help him with someone who has checked in vs leaving your vote completely off?

Also to answer Papa Zito's question on this post, I'm not completely sure what I get from you. Of course I'm not thrilled with getting immediately voted by you right away, but I feel like your trying to get the ball rolling and are analyzing reactions and responses from others. I can't really say you lean scum since the only real thing you've done is voted for me and watched people from there. Point is that it's early and none of your actions actually justify a vote at this stage.

Sizable post. The first points about Tchill are highly contradictory. There is nothing suspicious about doing a lot of vote changing; in fact, with reasoning, it's evidence that a player is taking an active part in the game and is trying to see what can be achieved by pressuring different people. Lots of voting in RVS is how we get out of RVS. Next, how can being on bandwagons both make someone gain trust and make them more suspicious?

The vote on NM has been suggested by Zito to mean you must be town, but that in itself is exactly why scum distancing in this way is a common strategy. You park your vote on him and switch it when something more convincing comes around. Also worth noting that nobody had been following you on voting before, so there's no reason to suggest that you voting NM here would get him lynched.

[jjh927]

We can have him answer regarding that before I do

[jjh927]

Would you mind summarising why you're also voting Arnold? I'd like to see if you have anything else to add

[jjh927]

That is an immensely lazy attitude, Arnold. It feels like you're trying to pull off some kind of AtE without actually AtEing.

Try doing something. Like, talking to me, for example, like I asked you to.

[jjh927]

Uuh, let's start off with how this clearly isn't the entire playlist scumreading you, and I thought a couple of people agreed with you?

Who is scum if Zito is not scum?

[jjh927]

Giving up and saying "Oh well, lynch me then and then reconsider the things I've said" IS lazy.

[jjh927]

I'm not a stubborn person, and I'm having a bad feeling about your lynch. Go be an active part of the game.

Why do you think Zito is scum?

[jjh927]

Arnold, that's not how you go about convincing people. Let's have you frame the debate here first so we can approach it from an angle that is clear and concise. No misinterpretations. Because our earlier argument was fraught with misinterpretations and that hasn't exactly given me a lot of confidence in this read.

[jjh927]

You have been a part of this game. I believe activity is defined by scumhunting and you've done little of that, from my perspective. You have, however, latched on to the occasional little thing and tried to get everyone to talk about said little thing and your unrelenting opinions about it.

[jjh927]

You may have said it multiple times but I'm not dredging my way through your iso for points that you might not still stand by that are open for misinterpreation. So yeah, go again.

[jjh927]

UNVOTE: Arnold

Let's see where this goes, anyhow.

[jjh927]

So Not Mafia makes that claim knowing 100% that someone will be able to counterclaim him. That just doesn't make sense.

Talk to me about this. I think I'm done flitting around.

[jjh927]

Yeah, but let's talk about Kawl for a second first, seeing as you're phoneposting and aren't in a great position to redo a case.

[jjh927]

Right, this was not what I was going for, but it's a good example of you misunderstanding things.

Scum have a roleblocker. Therefore, he knew the setup in which nobody could CC him was impossible, or at least he should have done. He done goofed.


But see, what I don't like about the post I flagged there is that I would be highly expectant of scum to jump in on the day with some kind of "I don't understand what's going on look I'm town like you guys" post that would also serve as carefully disguised frustration venting. I was more suspicious of your slightly later post than that one, but I've done some resorting.

[jjh927]

Not so much a scumslip, but it's something I'm highly conscious of looking for that may be indicative of scum. Call it a generic scumtell. For whatever reason, I believe there is generally an inclination for scum to do that kind of thing.


And btw, I've been re-sorting primarily because another game I was in ended and of course post-game brings a lot of thinking about it. The one lynch I was wrong about feels eerily similar to yours.

Conftown: Tchill
Townreads: Zito, Cero
Townleans: Cece
Nulls: Arnold
Scumleans: Kawl

is where I am after moving you up a little due to the resorting and a little more due to this conversation.

[jjh927]

Can you do a readlist?

[jjh927]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71471 is where it starts.

You... uuuh, might need some time on your hands if you want to read it. I'd suggest you just skip day 1 because that's like half the posts.

[jjh927]

The lynch that I'm getting similar vibes from was McMenno's on day 4. For clarification, I had a weird thing based on who I ended a day voting, so I couldn't really be on any wagons unless I really wanted to be, but I was strongly in support of that lynch and it was for the same kind of reasons as I was just in favour of yours.

[jjh927]

Like, I could have cased you, but doing so would be more finding reasons why I think you're scum (and falling victim to confirmation bias) rather than having a case already built in the back of my mind that I need to assemble.

[jjh927]

Townleaning. And that's just another resort.

Looking back I don't think there's actually anything wrong with her answers to my case.

[jjh927]

Kawl, who are the people you want to read before the day is over, and why haven't you made an effort to talk to them?


(Also I'm struggling to see how you can't have a read on me yet considering I've been the most active player)

[jjh927]

Was just making sure that was everyone.

[jjh927]

It's weird because I'm here and you want to place me but you aren't taking an active role in conversation with me.

[jjh927]

Yeah. Frustration isn't the only emotion in those posts, either.

[jjh927]

It's kinda shit tbh. I place no merit in votes/reads without logic behind them, even when the one who held them flips. The fact that Fykus was town means nothing.

[jjh927]

Wait, did he actually say that? Could you quote it for me? Because that's not what I got from that point.

[jjh927]

Like, just the fact that he made that argument is a good case for scum!Zito, because he used the nightkill to point suspicion at someone.

[jjh927]

I mean, I don't get why you're asking me because I stated my opinion on it before it got quoted.

I still think Zito is more likely to be town than Kawl but for none of the reasons that Zito has listed against Kawl.

[jjh927]

I think you might be right, Tchill.

Reasoning isn't relevant, his position was pretty clear. It's the read that matters.

Anyway enough of that.

I just don't see an IC saying that as town. We're being told to sheep dead people.

On the other hand, we've had this discussion framed as a one-issue debate, so Zito- could you go over any other reasons you still think Kawl might be scum for again?

[jjh927]

VOTE: Kawl

I think this might be where I'm sticking.

[jjh927]

Well, there's a lesson in there for Tchill about checking votecounts before you vote so you don't accidentally lolhammer.

I was going to say I decided I was happy enough with Arnold to consider him a townread and I figured I'd stick with the Zito townread from earlier in the day because I didn't really believe in the arguments against him. I wanted to see how people reacted to those arguments. Not people like Arnold and Kawl, who suspected Zito, or Tchill, who suspected a lot of people- I was, and am, most interested in Cece and Cero rn.

They need to talk. To me, preferably.

[jjh927]

Okay, so Cece and Cero -

You're going to talk to me about Kawl. Posthumously. What did you think about his play? Why did he get lynched? Why did you not contribute to the discussion on that matter?

[jjh927]

Can we not use PoE unless you have actual good reasons for believing that everyone else is town.

[jjh927]

Actually we can probably assume Cece is town because scum made a nightkill and she is somewhat absent.

The same is not quite true of Cero, who I think is lurking pretty hard right now.

[jjh927]

Well, basically, at the time that i made that post, Cece's last login was over 12 hours before the night started.

VOTE: Cero68

[jjh927]

Yeah.

[jjh927]

Now talk to me about Arnold.

Why is his resigned attitude from that point in day 2 scummy? If he's scum he also doesn't want to let himself get lynched- and honestly, I don't see an attitude like that coming from the last scum.

Do you have anything else you consider scummy from Arnold?


What are your reads?



Can you answer my questions about Kawl?

[jjh927]

You didn't fully answer the questions.

What did YOU think of his play? Why did you not offer any input on it when things were happening?

[jjh927]

Day 2 went on for several IRL days and you had very little presence in most of it.

What did you personally think of his play? Would you have voted him?

[jjh927]

When you say you "like to see how people react", I don't really recall anyone having any meaningful reactions to anything you've done unprompted.

[jjh927]

You haven't really followed up on anything either. It feels like your principle motivation for talking either to or about suspicious people is to justify your votes on them rather than scumhunting.

[jjh927]

I get that I was bombarding Cero with questions but I really don't like this habit of his of only answering one question from each post.

The most pressing thing is the stuff about Arnold. Answer those things, please, Cero.

[jjh927]

That is, the any other scummy stuff.

Otherwise you're literally just going off of gut and we're at day 3

[jjh927]

The thing with Cero is that he is logging in. He's logging in to check up on this thread but not replying to things. He is, by definition, lurking, and I can only imagine it is because he does not know what to say.

[jjh927]

Just to be clear after day 2;

Cero is now at L-1. Voting him will hammer him. Do not vote him without declaring intent to hammer.

I think we should wait for the replacement on that note. Someone active to talk to would be good.

[jjh927]

Wait, is the proposal of the BP claim strat seriously the only thing that Zito townreads me for?

Because I wasn't the first to mention it. Fykus was. I delayed it a little because I wanted RVS.


Black, if I come to TR your slot, then I'd be very happy to vote Zito. Need to figure out how best to go about interrogation to get that reading to work, though.

If Zito isn't scum, who is?

[jjh927]

Could you talk to me about some of those towntells then? Point em out.

[jjh927]

And for the record, I am 99% certain Cece is town because according to the last login time stuff that you can't see now because she's logged in since, she didn't log in at all during night 2.

[jjh927]

I think what you mean to say, Arnold, is "Hey, Zito- case up the Cero/Black slot please"

Also UNVOTE:

[jjh927]

Okay, I like that post a lot, generally agree, and it's nice and concise. This is good.

Let's see Zito actually case your slot and I'll sit back and observe a 1V1.

[jjh927]

Tbf I'm mainly waiting for Zito to case Cero/Black.

[jjh927]

Cece, don't hammer this yet if you're thinking about doing so. In fact, I'd prefer it if you let me hammer.

I still want to hear Zito out, but we're probably lynching him. I will want to drop a wall of text before we finalise said lynch because if we're wrong I am probably the nightkill here.

[jjh927]

I don't think anyone would ever tactically replace out as the last scum because it sacrifices personal victory for the sake of nobody else.

[jjh927]

That post was disgusting.

If Zito isn't scum, then please be aware that if you vote the wrong person tomorrow then scum can quickhammer. Also Cece is definitely town and Arnold is more likely town than Black.

Intent to hammer.

[jjh927]

I'll hammer when I'm back on my computer tomorrow, so if there is anything that needs to be said before then then say it.

[jjh927]

Back on my computer.

Cece is definitely town because she didn't log in to MS at all during night 2.


VOTE: Papa Zito

I believe gifposting is customary?






But yeah, I assume if I'm wrong I'm dying tonight. I believe in that case, the game's outcome rests with Cece. Remember- no voting until you're sure. Your vote is no longer a pressure tool. If you get it wrong, scum can quickhammer and win the game.

[jjh927]

RC, I was down for lynching Cero until his tactical replacement. Then, Zito was disgustingly bad in the 1V1 with Blackvoid, so I hammered Zito.