Newbie 1845 - A New Dawn Game Over

[Sando]

Hey all, I'm replacing sheepsaysmeep, I'm working from home today so should have time to catch up today, I'll post in ~12 hours once I've caught up.

I've Mafiascum'd before but not in ~5 years, hence the old account.

[Sando]

Hey all, just finished reading through and taking notes.

Firstly,

@mod

, there hasn’t been an extension yeah? We’ve got about 24-30 hours until sundown by my calcs? Someone previously said they’re not fussed by non-lynches even on day1, I’m definitely not in that camp. So let’s stop messing about, and I for one will take waffling at this point as scummy, assuming I'm right in what I've just said about timeline.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Inferno

I think my vote was already there from pre-swap, but just want to make sure, I'm not sure of protocol when swapping in. Sorry my previous incarnation was a **** to you Inferno, that wasn’t cool…but you’re still scum.

Read on Inferno in next post

Read on other scumleans in post after that

[Sando]

Inferno:

So Inferno starts in 102 attacking Sheep, and I’ll say straight up that I think Inferno is flat out wrong to say that Sheep wasn’t contributing/scumhunting. That’s not to say that Sheeps actions were fine, but I think he most definitely was contributing. Inferno in 102 goes after Sheep but doesn’t actually go all the way and accuse, or even vote Sheep. Given Inferno is pretty obsessed with “shading”, this seems like some pretty hardcore projection here.

Inferno 194 is really scummy, basically any discussion of roles D1 is anti-town.

Inferno 220 is going after sheep for defending aggressiveness with the question of “who even mentioned aggressiveness”, ignoring that Sunset said that of Sheep in her 189.

In 336 Inferno goes for a meta read on sheep and claims that Sheep is “so scum it’s ridiculous”. As part of that meta read Inferno used a town-game to try and show Sheeps scum-meta.

In 477 Inferno says:

And now he's adamant that he's contributed to this game, whereas I can hit post after post where he actually has not.

Sheep has never claimed that they don’t shitpost, just that they ALSO contribute a lot. This is absolutely a terrible misrep from Inferno, and it’s not a mistake, this conversation has been going on for a long time by this point. Showing that there’s post after post of Sheep not contributing does not refute anything that Sheep has said.

In 478 Inferno says:

This is when it occurred to me that you could be scum trying to use this rule of threes ploy to put incredible stress on a player who already looked bad.

What? Putting more pressure on someone who looks bad is scummy?! That’s what the game is all about.

In 533 Inferno accuses LUV of putting someone to L-1 when it was really L-2. This is fairly egregious given the votecount is at the top of the page and as Inferno says:

I think the point of this specific argum-- I mean, conversation is not whteher or not it's NAI but that

you need to actually read posts before you reply to them

please and thank you.

Bolding mine.

#617 Inferno: Immediately attacks his accuser, misrepresents RCs vote. RC voted due to change from meta, Inferno claims it was because of apparent SvS with Sunset.

In 675 Inferno says he wants to see RCs claim. To me this is the second clear anti-town move from Inferno regarding claims.

Overall there’s a clear pattern of anti-town actions in terms of claims etc, and there’s been some very consistent misrepresentations going on, mostly of Sheep but also of some others. As for the meta read, I’d agree with RC that this is a fairly wild divergence from the linked game. How Sunlit can think otherwise blows my mind at this point, but more on that later!

[Sando]

The rest of you:

Alright so other than Inferno, who’s pinging my scumdar?

Well there’s obviously the lurkers, but they’re swapping in/out etc and I don’t really have much to add there. I find it also hard to notice lurking in a catchup read since I’m reading a whole bunch of text in a short time, so it doesn’t seem like someone has gone quiet since it’s only been a few minutes since I read their last post.

Sunlit:

Sunlit made the first good point of the game, that Avi called out the L-1 in RVS without actually removing their own vote.

Sunlit then said this:
“Inferno was so transparently, unfakeably, town in art deco it was painful.”

Which having read some of deco is an OTT but not outrageous statement. However, the weird defence of this and the idea that Inferno is “within his town meta” to me says that Sunlit is basically saying that Inferno is acting painfully transparently and unfakeably town in this game too. That statement simply cannot be accepted as true for this game, whatever you think of Inferno’s alignment, he has not been painfully, transparently and unfakeably townie.

In 414 Sunlit even goes so far as to say “of course he could be faking it”. Given the description Sunlit gave was “unfakeably town”, what?

Any reasonable person by post 413 (when it gets posted) would read a large difference between this game and the linked game of Inferno’s. Whether you think that’s enough to lynch Inferno or not, Sunlit’s position on this is not at all reasonable.

It’s not until 545 that Sunlit starts walking back support for meta-Inferno, votes for him in 563…for 7 messages and back onto red in 570. RC immediately upon entering the game identifies the change in Inferno-meta, at which point Sunlit goes back to voting Inferno.

Yes my read is basically based on one thread, but it’s just so mind-blowing that Sunlit would believe what he was saying.

Avi:

Avi did a bunch of scummy stuff then went QUIET. Sunlit and others pointed out his callout of RVS L-1 without removing his vote, and yeah that was super scummy. Avi addressed that issue with “I wanted to keep pressure on” but then removed the pressure (55). Also the excuse that the person was a loose cannon and he wanted to be careful makes no sense given the “loose cannon” was already self voting and as such was no further threat.
Avi goes very quiet for extended periods, although in 321 comes in to unvote and remove pressure, and gets very defensive when this is pointed out.

Saul/RC:

So I wasn’t really onboard with the early Saul train, but threatening sheep with a counter-lynch in 295 was…not great. Basically lurks/drops though so not much more read.

RC though…whoa there boy. Ok the claim strat thing was…weird, but the setups for newbies is very different from when I previously played so I don’t really know what to make of it. The defence in 619 that they’ve recently arrived and basically should be given a pass into day 2…absolutely no way that’s happening. Also apparently we’re close enough to sundown that we should give him a pass, but he’s getting jumpy and stops the L-1 train on Inferno reeeeally late in the day.

Saying he’s going to be forced to claim in 673 is seemingly out of nowhere, and yeah I think pretty scummy.

692 is actually an excellent post, certainly pushed him down my scum-list.

#727 and others RC: “you’re gonna look stupid when I flip town” is not an experienced players response to being pushed. Appeals directly to Inferno’s emotions. Funnily enough from his wiki, appealing to emotions is exactly what RC worked on for his scum-games (1769 - Happy New Year).

Sunset

:

I haven't actually got a strong read on Sunset, except to say that they're parrotting a lot. Nearly everything I've seen from them has been a parrot of someone's earlier points.

#189 Sunset: Points out the Avi called out L-1 without removing vote.

#445 Sunset: Parrots Inferno’s “sheep is saying little” while maintaining town read. This is despite previously saying Sheep was "aggressive"

Also #443 Sunset: Didn’t realise they were putting red at L-1 and doesn’t remove vote. The vote was basically in response to being voted by Sheep, so they basically put someone at L-1 immediately after being voted…scum-read. It is their first game though.



So who have I missed?
Red - Honestly haven't seen what all the fuss is about with Red, he's done a few dodges, but not egregious imo. I'll have another read through focusing on Red though.
LUV - Very little read here, leaning town
Creature - Reasonably strong lead town. He was the first in 280 to start questioning wagons, something really important to keep an eye on.


Overall I think Red/LUV/Creature are my most townie. Sunlit and Avi are my strongest pings outside of Inferno. RC is a wildcard that I would like more information on (so yeah I'll give you a pass D1 after all lol), but I'm certainly not town-sold on. Sunset has skated through, certainly leaning scummy in my books but some of that is based on activity and I don't like voting on that D1.

[Sando]

Whew, that was work, but hopefully wall of texts done for the time being. Hi all! I'm in Aus btw so you'll get some replies at weird times. Thankfully had time today to have a good read through. Let's get on with the day though!

[Sando]

thenavneet replaces Sunset at Dawn effective immediately. Day 1 deadline will be 3 days from now, rounded down to top of the hour.

Welcome thenavneet.

Cool with the new deadline, still short enough that we should not be messing around. I don't feel it changes my statement on people like RC derailing a train so close to deadline, as afaik this is the first deadline move.

[Sando]

I've just ISO'd you, and as far as I can tell you've never actually said what advice you think LUV is giving that he doesn't believe, what would that be?

[Sando]

#478 was me questioning both my reads on Saul and Red, because what I thought was scumhunting from Red was actually just him asking a lot of questions and not giving us any real reads. So it looked like Red tying to force a mislynch on Saul.

Yes, and the conclusion you came to was the placing pressure on someone who "looks bad" is not a good thing. Seeing someone doing things that make them "look bad" and putting pressure on them to try and determine their alignment is the basic summary of town-play.

#533 was me misreading the votecount and makinga calculation on the votecount from there. that's hardly AI, and you're totally taking the quote to make that scummy out of context, where sheep was constantly responding to posts in a way that he wasn't reading posts AT ALL. Which does imply a difference from what I did.

You have gone after sheep because he wasn't paying attention to what was being said. Vote counts are not hard to read when it's the top of the page and there's been one vote. Vote counts and L-1 statements are also very, very important to get right, far more so than off-hand comments in a flurry of a crazy 1v1. It was extremely careless of you, and also part of a pattern given the 478 of you responding to Saul pressure with OMG STAAAHP! (see above)

#675 is just NAI.

No, no it's not.

I feel like there's a lot of stuff in his reads on everyone else too, but I'll get to that in a sec.

I look forward to hearing it!

I'm very uncomfortable with Sando's reads on everyone else too. Perhaps it's just an older way of playing, but to me it seems very misrepresentative of everyone in the game so far.

Oh..."uncomfortable", ok, good talk.

I've noticed that the references to out of game things is vastly, vastly higher than previously, and that makes me uncomfortable, I don't really know what to make of it. I've never seen someone use IC being a bad IC as a scum-read for example, but people seem to accept this. If RC had made the "claim strat" talk 5 years ago he'd have been instantly lynched, but the format of newbie games has changed markedly since then, as it seems peoples attitudes have as well.

I barely mentioned your meta in my read on you, I've mostly referenced it with Silent, and that's because his read/defence of you with it was absolutely ludicrous.

[Sando]

I don’t think this is the right mindset to have right now. Was Saul a difficult read? Yes, but if you strongly feel the content that you did manage to understand is coming from scum, no replacement can change that.

RC this is in no way shit advice. The idea that you should just give up on reads because the person swaps out is actually terrible advice, which you seem to be implying. Sure, if the read is based on lurking and the person swaps out, then you should re-evaluate, but if the person is acting scummy, you don't just forget that if they swap out. You're basically asking someone to lose information, and information is fundamentally pro-town. LUV even says "content", specifically saying that it's not about lurking etc that is further explained by the swap.

like this is on the border but fuck no in context this post was made because you wanted to encourage a mislynch on me without considering other people.

I honestly thought the "I don't mind no lynching" was far, far worse advice than encouraging a mislynch.

Don't teach newbies to shit tunnel people and refuse to engage with them, I've taken my losses without being an IC trying to be a better role model and that's from a person who is systematically correct enough to justify hardcore tunneling. You owe your job as an IC better.

So while we're on the subject of being a role model:

Most of us know that there are very, very few circumstances when self-voting and/or hammering (as Town) is actually helpful to the town.

This type of behavior should be kept out of Newbie games

, because it does not teach the new players how to play the game correctly.

and

Of course, if you're scum then feel free to self-vote/self-hammer. Self-voting/self-hammering as scum denies the town information and IS playing toward your win condition by confusing the remaining townies and allowing your partner to hide in the confusion.

So should we take you at your word that you try to set a good example? The idea that you're actually in any way helping new players here is utterly ludicrous. I'm comfortable with an RC lynch today.

[Sando]

Am I encouraging newbies to selfvote? Fuck no, because largely they can't determine what the correct situation to do so is. And generally I try to set a good role model for everyone and not just myself, like I linked to you in several games where I said that I assessed my own reads as the best in the game and a specific person as scum but chose to lynch the person scumread by the majority of players instead because that's USUALLY the correct play, but I think that me being scumread here is a very teachable moment because it's so flagrantly fucking wrong.

I am the objectively most obvious town in this game by any measure of towniness, I've tried hard to scumhunt, I've been reevaluating reads, I've been trying to make a good newer player experience, I've shown genuine emotion in how I've responded to things. I should not be scumread. Me being scumread isn't just slightly off kilter here it's mind blowing.

Ok so your response to me posting my first real post(s) at a bit over 1200 words:

Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.

I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.

So just to recap, your "creating a good new player experience" plan is:

1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.
2) Self vote to set up a plan where town lynches a townie then blindly lynches 3 other players for the win, because apparently this is fun and interactive gameplay that will teach newbies how to play the game...
3) Complain about a derp-tunnel which in your own reads is 2 scum, 1 townie and yourself (red, LUV being your said scumpool and 2 of the 3 votes on you). I'm sure things have changed since I last played, but 2 scums and a townie (in your reads) running a train on a townie doesn't really meet the definition of a derp-tunnel to me...
4) Not actually reply to my statements about some of your (yes you, not Saul) actions being scummy

[Sando]

1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.

Before I continue this response: did I denigrate you, the person behind the game AT ALL?

Before I continue this response: did I say you denigrated me AT ALL? Or did I say you denigrated my reads? I'm saying you appealed to (your own) authority, if we wanna go full wiki. I'm saying it was scummy, not that you were an ass.

[Sando]

Here ya go:

Saul/RC:

So I wasn’t really onboard with the early Saul train, but threatening sheep with a counter-lynch in 295 was…not great. Basically lurks/drops though so not much more read.

RC though…whoa there boy. Ok the claim strat thing was…weird, but the setups for newbies is very different from when I previously played so I don’t really know what to make of it. The defence in 619 that they’ve recently arrived and basically should be given a pass into day 2…absolutely no way that’s happening. Also apparently we’re close enough to sundown that we should give him a pass, but he’s getting jumpy and stops the L-1 train on Inferno reeeeally late in the day.

Saying he’s going to be forced to claim in 673 is seemingly out of nowhere, and yeah I think pretty scummy.

692 is actually an excellent post, certainly pushed him down my scum-list.

#727 and others RC: “you’re gonna look stupid when I flip town” is not an experienced players response to being pushed. Appeals directly to Inferno’s emotions. Funnily enough from his wiki, appealing to emotions is exactly what RC worked on for his scum-games (1769 - Happy New Year).

[Sando]

I think that you're largely calling it scummy because you don't understand the way that I play, which I understand for my part but what do you think the actual scum motivation was for me to claim VT there?

I'm calling it scummy because it's commonly accepted as anti-town. Play how you play, but commonly accepted principles should be referenced and explained as to why it's not the case in this instance. "Hey I'm doing this thing that you normally shouldn't do because it gets outcome xyz and that's pro-town", not "hey I'm doing this normally anti-town thing but that's just how I am, so deal with it".

You're simultaneously making claim to being the most obvious pro-town person ever, and defending anti-town plays with "that's just how I am".

No, just...no. Newbies are specifically NOT in a position to understand why anti-town plays are sometimes pro-town and hence SEs are asked and ICs forced to be very careful with them. To claim that it's unreasonable for newbie-townies to not see you as OBVTOWN is in no way an ok argument to make, in your own words you do things typically seen as anti-town. Newbies are slaves to the wiki because they're looking for guidance, and it's ok to manipulate that as scum because that's how people learn, but it's not ok to claim that they should somehow know better.

But this all leads me to one conclusion: You're either a bad town SE or a good scum one.

Self voting in a newbie game as town, D1, without holding the towns hand through it and clearly articulating the reasons for it (without going mental at the IC) would be seen by any reasonable person as bad town SE. Importantly, this is REGARDLESS of whether you are town or whether your play is actually going to help town, you're setting a bad example.

Self voting in a newbie game as scum, well that makes sense.

Lets have a look at the circumstances of your self vote shall we:

RadiantCowbells (3)Lil Uzi Vert , Aviqf , RedFlavor , L-2
Inferno390 (1)sando ,
RedFlavor (1)thenavneet ,
Lil Uzi Vert (1)Inferno390 ,

Note that Red and LUV are in your scumlist, along with creature who isn't voting. So according to you there's 4 town voting (Avi, Sando, thenav, Inferno), and they're split evenly at 1 each on two town (you and Inferno) and two scum (Red and LUV).

This situation is basically begging for an experienced player to step up, explain what's going on, how the train is being strongly scum-led etc. If Red+LUV is true then they've left themselves HORRIBLY exposed and that should be explained to town-newbies. Instead, you rage about how you're the most obviously pro-town ever and we're silly for not recognising that, despite there being a single, solitary, one person from town voting you. So basically you decided to self vote because a sole townie voted you...top job there SE. The current votes on you btw, according to your reads, are 2 scum and yourself...

You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Sando]

If you're town I think you find my playstyle so offensive that you're not honestly evaluating me.

I flat out cannot see how your play is a good example of town play

in the context of a newbie game.

I don't find it personally offensive and I can see how in the context of other types of games what you've done would be seen as less scummy, although I wouldn't go so far as to say pro-town.

[Sando]

And frankly you being there was a large part of it because I knew your vote was going to find its way onto me.

Lolwat? I came in, posted a wall of text against Inferno, and posted a couple of things about you I had issues with, and said you had "an excellent post", oh and said that I wasn't onboard with the Saul train. From that, you deduced that my vote was eventually going to come onto you? Anyone reading my post would reasonably assume I was dead-set on Inferno and I was seriously considering Sunlit. Oh here's my actual summation:

Sunlit and Avi are my strongest pings outside of Inferno. RC is a wildcard that I would like more information on (so yeah I'll give you a pass D1 after all lol), but I'm certainly not town-sold on.

So you're not in my top 3 and I've just said I wanted more info and was giving you a pass on D1...but you self voted because you knew my vote was going to find its way onto you.

[Sando]

if you're such a good little townie why aren't you worried about the fact that Redflavor has never given a reason for scumreading you?

Scumreading me? He hasn't that I can see? Do you mean reading Sheep, or scumreading you?

Same goes to LUV who hasn't given any sort of explanation for why I am scum.

Because you've gone after him for IC and threatened to report him to "PP" (I'm not sure who/what this is), and I think you're misinterpreting his words to be in the worst possible light. Yes, you could read it as saying that Inferno should ignore everything that you've done since entering, but that's the worst possible interpretation. You could also interpret it as saying that actions of player Saul was scummy and that there's nothing that you as his replacement can do to change the fact that those actions were scummy. I did not go into this because I'm not in the business of defending another player and giving them arguments, and I wanted LUV to answer that, thankfully he has now and we can read into that what we will.

I've said, to you, things that I didn't like about LUV. I said, in a response TO YOU, that I found his lackadaisical attitude towards a no-lynch was terrible advice. I also find him being inconsistent with:

I never have a problem with no lynching

and

I was simply just reminding everyone that if a player feels they have a solid foundation for why they scum read someone’s predecessors

and we’re close to deadline

, there is very little a replacement can do or say to change that.

(bold mine)
But, ya know, he literally only just posted this and my defending him as earlier in this post would have enabled him to avoid posting this, so you're welcome, hope you learnt something from the old-schooler.

[Sando]

Because here's how I see the LUV vote on RC going down.

LUV votes Saul
RC swaps in
LUV says Inferno is well within his rights to maintain his suspicion on Saul with RC now being in the game
RC attacks LUV for said post
LUV ignores this to a large extent

LUV has never voted you, search Vote: RadientCowbells and you won't find a quote from LUV, he voted for Saul and left it on you. I do not think his reasoning is bad, and given he's been personally attacked I'm honestly not surprised he's not keen to engage with you.

Red strikes me as newbie-town flailing. The worst I can say is that he opportunistically jumped on your bandwagon, but I don't see the strong link to LUV that I think you're inferring? His attack on you about the claim-strat was odd, but honestly I have NFI what the claim from you meant there and given I'm the only person to have thought it deserved instant-lynch I'm clearly not in a position to make a read into his reaction, that's something I will defer to authority on, since I'm looking at that from my experience 5+ years ago.

[Sando]

I literally confirmed my predecessors vote on Inferno with my first post... You then said that my reads were terrible...

So:
Sando agreed with Sheeps read on Inferno
RC says Sando is just flat out wrong and has terrible reads
RC says Sheep, who had the same read, was great at the current meta with his reads and Sando has terrible reads...despite them being roughly the same.

I mean...

[Sando]

It's actually hilarious to me that you're using my predecessor's reads as defence (badly), while simultaneously attacking LUV for saying that reads of prior players is ok to maintain.

[Sando]

Yes I'm aware of what you're trying to do. You need to learn that I don't actually care about your validation, you're an incredibly arrogant player who uses that as both a shield and weapon.

[Sando]

Nah I read your wiki and 90% of your summary is defending your own play, bashing the rest of town, or basking in your own glory.

[Sando]

My last game wasn't the day that I joined btw...but top notch logic as always.

[Sando]

This feels like misrepresentation or an effort to make reasonable progression look unreasonable.

You made the comment about his town-meta very, very early, #68. From there it wasn't until #536 that you say anything scum-related about Inferno (so yeah, my original post said 545, I missed this one liner in original read-through). Point stands, you went a long, long time with an incredibly strong meta read that based on Inferno's actions was just not reasonable. What about that is "reasonable progression"?

[Sando]

Ok I read that as a very soft push at the time, but subsequent play says that that's your style, so I can buy that. I'm still not sure how we got into the mid 500s before you walked back from the meta read. As I said in my post, the read on you was purely on this one thread, but I stand by the idea that Inferno was meta-town based on Deco was not reasonable.

[Sando]

It's coming from a place of RC started the case against LUV about how ICs are meant to act (that was moral superiority RC, not whatever you think I was doing), and as such if he wants to question the established norms of play, then his should be examined as well. RC is also using his experience position as an appeal to authority, and if he wants to do that then I'm going to point out where that is not helpful to newbie players, including myself.

Not sure where I said SEs were obligated to play a certain way?

hence SEs are asked and ICs forced to be very careful with them

[Sando]

Observation after reading page 35-36: To my understanding, SEs have no obligation to do anything other than play the game. This entire argument is weird.

Right, but SE's aren't supposed to be screwing with the newbies by giving them bad play advice. That's what RC thinks LUV is doing. Which I have to agree a little bit on.

LUV is IC. IC's HAVE to tell the truth about play. SEs just play the game and can lie up a cat-5 storm if they wish.

I have no problem with SEs lying up a storm, but the context is what Inferno just said: RC has accused LUV of abusing the IC position. RCs 'abusing' the SE position is ONLY bad in my eyes because he went after LUV for it and is using that attack for a lynch target. That said:

You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.

I've made it clear that I think he's scum and that his play makes perfect sense as a scum SE.

[Sando]

Sure Inferno:

Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.

As I recall I've never been mislynched in a newbie before without the SEs going seriously off the rails so this game really is an outlier in terms of how little thought people are putting into it

Less than 4% of the people who play on mafiascum.net should EVER be so confident in their reads that they would ignore a replacement's actions.

AtE is a lot more common now than it was when you played, in no insignificant way because of yours truly.

And you seem to think that I'm a bad example, but I'm also considered one of if not the best players who current play.

[Sando]

Now Inferno/RC, I've let you continue on with this whole "old style" stuff and how I think I'm better than you because of it. Could you please point me to where I've said anything of the sort? I've repeatedly said "this is confusing me because it's very different from when I last played", but I've deliberately NOT used it as a basis for scumhunting. Of RCs claim-strat, I've said it would have previously gotten him lynched, BUT that things are clearly different these days. The AtE isn't based on my history, it's based on this comment on 1769 from RCs wiki:

First scum game of my return. I believe I played badly, or at least I did at the time: but this was the start of me focusing on

more appealing to people on an emotional level than logical

. Still think I played bad, but it worked.

[Sando]

I feel like that if anyone is using an AtA, it'd be you, Sando.

I've shown you mine Inferno, time for you to show me yours.

[Sando]

So will everyone please stop talking about my meta and how it makes me/others town/scum?

No.

Firstly, I think since me and RC joining posts where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

Secondly, Sunlit brought it up and defended it in what I at least thought was a fairly ridiculous manner. At that point you are simply evidence to be pointed to, and if that makes you uncomfortable, tough luck. It's not about you at that point, it's a line of questioning from me (and others potentially) directed at another player in an attempt to determine alignment. That's the game...deal with it. I'm not going to ignore a line of questioning and investigation

just because you feel your meta has changed, which was the entire point of my line of questioning in the first place!

Lastly, given you're currently insistent on referencing my "old-school" play constantly, and using it as a basis for accusing me of AtA...get over yourself. You're complaining about taking a 4 month break and people still referencing your previous play...you must understand how hypocritical that looks when the next breath (it was actually a breath or two before but still...):

Sando comes off as incredibly arrogant because he's an older player, despite the fact that he hasn't played for 5 years.

[Sando]

Do you think everyone who thinks that your read progression is made up is scum or do you think that it's possible that your reads aren't actually borne out of content in thread as much as they are your own personal feelings about things, and that everyone else is picking up on the holes and saying yeah this doesn't make linear sense as a read?

I made a massive couple of content posts where every read was content driven, which I think is unquestionable? I mean I hadn't interacted with anyone, and the only person I said anything negative about in terms of playstyle was Sheep. Go re-read those if you don't believe me.

You responded with:

Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.

I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.

Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.

Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.

VOTE: RC

Not unvoting from here on out.

So to me, I posted content reads, you completely ignored that, denigrated my reads based PURELY on the fact that they're not the same as yours. And now you're saying that my reads aren't borne out of content? Seriously?

[Sando]

First off, you have used my meta to attack me, because you did it in your very first wall. So you've used it to attack me and then to attack Sunlit, both times highly objectionable.

My wall of text against you was ~475 words (including quotes), of that, here's where I used your meta to attack you:

Overall there’s a clear pattern of anti-town actions in terms of claims etc, and there’s been some very consistent misrepresentations going on, mostly of Sheep but also of some others.

As for the meta read, I’d agree with RC that this is a fairly wild divergence from the linked game.

How Sunlit can think otherwise blows my mind at this point, but more on that later!

But yeah, I'm the one misrepresenting here... It was an entire sentence, which was EXACTLY what I said in my last post that you're now responding to:

Firstly, I think since me and RC joining posts where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

Literally one sentence Inferno, one...sentence.

[Sando]

Like I believe that you believe that your reads are borne out of content, if it helps? Or I wouldn't be

scumreading

you. But I think you have a chip on your shoulder and its screwing with your interactions with everyone.

Townreading you mean? Or are you scumreading me?

I posted my read on Inferno based on content, you reply with simple "nah you're wrong", and now you think that instead of my read being content driven, it's somehow morphed into a chip on my shoulder read? Based on what?

[Sando]

Like assuming that you're town? Put your self in my point of view as town. Is it not true that I should be immensely skeptical of your reads given that you scumread me?

Wait are you referring to now or to back when I walled?

And do you mean skeptical of my towniness or ability? Obviously a townie should be sceptical of ability when they're scumread, both theirs and the accuser. It's that scepticism that should prompt further investigation into the motivation behind it. You should attempt to come to he conclusion that either you've done something that is deserving of a scum-read to an extent and therefor your accuser is motivated out of scumhunting, or you conclude that nope, no way can your actions be read that way and the person is motivated out of something other than scumhunting.

You were at best (worst?) 4th on my list when I started, so no I do not believe it's reasonable to be "immensely skeptical of your reads given that you scumread me", in my opinion.

[Sando]

Seriously Inferno?

Firstly, I think

since me and RC joining posts

where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

Like...simple English 101 says that I'm saying both me and RC used it in our posts to say yes your meta has changed, and SINCE THEN, no-one has said much about it at all in the context of attacking you with it.

[Sando]

You literally told me to in your response and I ignored it for ages before voting you...discussing things with you the entire time and forming my argument...

[Sando]

In the end it comes down to that you seem to feel that it's impossible that I am a good SE while doing the things that I've done. I can't argue with that.

In my vote for you post:

You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.

[Sando]

If it helps, this has shown that Inferno is not scum to RC town. RC flipping town basically confirms Inferno town (the opposite is not true), since scum would have realised that and happily killed a townie that confirmed a scum as town by now. Scum had opportunity and motive, funnily enough they haven't done that...

Reads other than the obvious RC/Inferno combo:

I'm not sold on LUV-scum, but Red will look seriously bad on an RC town-flip (along with me, although I feel I've hunted to Reds follow).
Silent I'm town-lean with recent play, although RCs comment that Silent is going to die because he's the only person who can lead town to victory is odd, given I've seen no inclination from Silent to do anything of the sort (leading that is).
Creature I still have basically no read on other than liking some of his early posts and generally what suggestions he's had have been good in a teaching sense (first that I saw to bring up wagons and whether they're scumled or not).
Avi I still lean scum on.
thenav hasn't posted that I can see? Have to give some scum-cred for that at this point I feel.

[Sando]

I think this entire argument is proving to be a *fantastic* distraction from actual scumhunting. It's also completely drowned out the voices of our quieter players.

I mean Inferno just accused me of blatantly lying and I accused him of egregious misrep for that...feel free to weigh in on that.

[Sando]

Sorry I've been calling you silent for a while now! I have NFI where that brainfade came from!

Yeah I'm not saying it's a flaw from you, nor scummy, just an observation that you don't seem to have a "leading" playstyle. RC made a comment about that, which I mis-remembered but not substantively imo, found it though:

Sunlit dies tonight if not protected I guarantee you because she's the only town player who can get some sort of cohesion going tomorrow so protection on her

[Sando]

RC do you still think my read on Inferno is playstyle driven rather than content driven? Or was that comment purely in relation to my read on you?

[Sando]

Sigh...I'm asking a genuine question. Inferno has just accused me of lying in 973 and I've accused him of pretty egregious misrep in 978. Pretty much the definition of a content driven discussion that might help with scumhunt if people actually engaged?

I just posted my (changed) reads...but you know, ignore that all you want.

[Sando]

That particular post was directed at RC's 996 btw Sunlit, but obviously keen to hear your thoughts.

[Sando]

No worries Sunlit.

Thoughts on 1001 while you're at it?

[Sando]

We're once again sub 20 hours til deadline.

[Sando]

Oh right, tops as. Does freeze mean once he responds we're back on at 20 hours til deadline? ie we're only frozen til he responds?

[Sando]

What is this Red? Scumranks?

[Sando]

So no matter how Sando spins it, I have been attacked with my meta, so his claim that I haven't been is just not true.

The spin is exactly what I wrote, that since me and RC made single sentence comments about it, you haven't been attacked for it.

Just read that again, because you actually have to read the entire sentence, not just the last 6 words. I made zero, nada, nil, contradiction. I've pointed that out to you subsequently. You're flat out wrong and you continue to push this despite it being shown to you, repeatedly. Here's the original sentence:

Firstly, I think

since me and RC joining posts

where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.

This was pointed out to you in 978 that English 101 says you're wrong here. Now you're trying to walk it back without admitting this, saying that it wasn't a scum motivated slip by me. I didn't slip, I was factually correct.

You're desperately trying to undermine anyone that ever attacks you, myself included. You've flailed at everyone who's ever even looked your way. You've been parroting RC who has blithely stated you're 100% town in said flailing and in 1001 is desperately trying to give you a pass on this utter bullshit that you're spouting here. You've now decided that trying to make me look scummy isn't going to work, so you're just going to try and undermine my character by saying I'm old-school arrogant and that I'm "straight out bad".

You're scum, with RC.

[Sando]

If he's scum with me then my being town makes him not scum, correct?

Just making sure we agree on that.

He'd go well down my list if you did townflip yes. I do not feel the same about him flipping town towards you. The wagon mechanics make me feel you'd have been lynched well before now if it were scum-inf + town-RC.

[Sando]

RC

still

keen to defend Inferno and me as TvT after our latest interaction where he simple ignores my post and goes straight back to being factually incorrect?

I get that emotions can come into play, but c'mon. I posted very clearly in 978 why he's blatantly misrepresenting me, which he's ignored and doubled down on in 1028, while simultaneously walking back on his scum-read. Emotions can not excuse horrendous play forever.

[Sando]

Sandro you've chosen at every turn to believe that I'm scum lying as opposed to knowing things you don't know. And that's understandable.

But learn from what I've said.

Ask your opinion, get snide avoidance and AtA in response.

Tops as.

[Sando]

Cool, I'm done for the day, RC is clearly just going to lash out at anyone that posts, especially me.

thenavneet, you have 3 reads, only one (RC) is a reasonable lynch target today (in his own words), with a deadline here I think we get this done.

Sunlit, you've fencesat for a very, very long time now, can we get some action today maybe?

Avi and Creatures inaction should most definitely be noted for future days.

We have 24 hours til deadline.

[Sando]

You're 100% ignoring content and going straight for the emotional response now RC, I'm done engaging with you. Even with thenav you completely ignored his actual post and went straight at what he hadn't posted.

[Sando]

I don't know about the other Town folk but I for one don't think you're presence is helpful here.

Pretty sure you can guess my feelings on this...

[Sando]

*sigh*

This is why I felt we had gotten enough out of the day and was ready to end it before the 30-page mark.

Mulling things over is not bad thing necessarily but it can hurt the town if no one consolidates on a decision.

Well 2 SEs and a newbie-replacement are the ones not voting, ala making no moves to end the day and we can't really call it a newbie mistake. Do you think this is active miring by the players or purely passive miring by those not getting involved?

[Sando]

There is no way you can spin this where what did not happen was that you said no one attacked me with my meta and then said this is where I attacked you with my meta.

You're either going all in on this misrep or you don't understand simple english. I never, ever, ever, said that no-one had

ever

attacked you with your meta, I said that no-one had attacked you SINCE mine and RC entry posts.

How is this not obvious to you?

[Sando]

I'm done commenting on my current RC or Inferno reads btw, there's waaaaaaaay more than enough content there for people to make their own minds if they choose to actually read.

At this point the impetus has to be on Creature, Sunlit and thenav to break this impasse.

[Sando]

I don't think we'll be getting an RC lynch today. Assuming we did, and assuming you flip green, I'm looking at the people who barely engaged with you at all, first.

To my mind we get more info from RC flipping than LUV, regardless of result. RC flipping either way actually changes things one way or another regardless of alignment, I do not see the same from LUV, outside of RC/LUV themselves obviously.

[Sando]

I don't think we'll be getting an RC lynch today. Assuming we did, and assuming you flip green, I'm looking at the people who barely engaged with you at all, first.

To my mind we get more info from RC flipping than LUV, regardless of result. RC flipping either way actually changes things one way or another regardless of alignment, I do not see the same from LUV, outside of RC/LUV themselves obviously.

Pushing info lynches is a terrible decision and I'm not just saying that because it's me. If you're going to vote me, vote me because you think I'm more likely to flip town.

The context is responding to Sunlit about the info of lynches... I've only ever mentioned it in the context of deriving the information you yourself has requested me to derive, or here when Sunlit is already talking about the info from a lynch.

Yes info lynches are bad, but a) you suggested it to me originally so I'm not sure where your sudden change of heart is coming from, and b) it's in context here, which sunlit can deduce for himself without your help.

If you're directing the comment about not voting for info lynches to me, why? I'm clearly voting you because I think you're scum. If you're directing it to Sunlit, why? Does he need the help from you?

[Sando]

I haven't actually said that so far because frankly if you went after me like you went after Sando, I would replace out.

Do you think he's doing this out of being an ass or out of manipulative ends? To me it strikes me more and more as an attempt to manipulate me and others regarding our view of scum. He hasn't actually refuted most of the accusations against him or Inferno, merely called those accusations silly and informed me I'm stupid/arrogant/old-school etc, which Inferno has been happy to parrot. Every interaction with me has been directed at character rather than at actions, and any time I've actually tried to talk through content he's deflected back onto other things.

Look at my 1045 viewtopic.php?p=9894314#p9894314 where I'm actually trying to get him to defend his 1001 defence of Inferno in light of new evidence. Immediately deflects into attacking my character and ability.

In 1086 viewtopic.php?p=9894693#p9894693 where I start ratcheting up the pressure on Inferno, immediately deflects that with some weird question about political persuasion.

In 1107 viewtopic.php?p=9895012#p9895012 when I talk about what info I get between the two viable lynches, again doesn't actually argue my point, immediately goes for my character and ineptitude in even talking about it.

These are just in the last 3-4 pages, but go back and look at every post of mine and you'll see a very, very clear pattern here. I post a negative view of either RC or Inferno, I'll get an immediate response from RC that attacks me and my character, or my ability to play the game, often subsequently parroted by Inferno.

[Sando]

So my thoughts on the speed lynch is that potentially good idea to just hammer LUV here, but that's potentially borne out of my misunderstanding of how nights go down. Basically my thought is that scum are currently in an awkward position where they presumably targeted one of the towniest people and got stopped by a doc or jailkeeper. This leaves scum in an awkward position. In my estimation there's only 1-2 really obvious town, so they can continue trying to target them and risk getting blocked again, or they can start looking at some of the less townie-looking folk, thus if they want a more guaranteed NK they have to eliminate a mislynch possibility for us as well. Much further discussion and 'clearances' is also helping scum target their NK tonight.

On RCs other 'suggestions' - I definitely agree with not counter-claiming LUV, under no circumstances should a real role person counter LUVs claim. It's not worth sacrificing your role to kill a scum when we can get that info later anyway.
I disagree with lynching LUV regardless of claim, although I will ignore his results. Again, we find this info out later, I don't see the problem with leaving him alive with that noose around his neck. We can't allow a scum-cop claim to force our lynch though. This is mostly my view from previous experience though so if disagree with this logic then I'm happy to listen.
I disagree with the claim-strat, mostly because we simply don't have the engagement necessary for it, my guess is maybe half the players actually do it and the rest flake, leaving us hanging in the wind.

Sunlit definitely looks bad from his actions late D1. RCs point that Sunlit had 14 days to help town and that Sunlit's complaint that RC didn't hold his horses is disingenuous is a very fair point.

Red certainly looks really bad as well for the flip flopping.

[Sando]

As for his accusation: I did try to help town. I spent the first part of D1 trying to sort and scumhunt, actively engaging in every way possible. When RC hit the game I got side swiped by paranoia and frustration and my reads went to shit because everything focused on him. Read my ISO, you can watch it happen like magical fairy dust.

This doesn't take into account the context of RCs post.

Sunlit: Gee I wish RC had held his horses so I could do this thing to help town that I now can't do.
RC: You had 14 days to help get LUV lynched where I was waiting to see what you were looking for, we were down to our last few hours and you'd shown no inclination to actually do that.
Sunlit: Yeah but I helped town during those 14 days.

Sunlit you can claim you helped town in those 14 days (or whatever it was), and I don't think people have a problem with giving you town-points for that, but it's not the point or context of RCs post. Your claim that RC jumped the gun and denied you the chance to get a LUV lynch is disingenuous, since you'd contributed nothing in the way of actually pushing for a lynch there, of anyone. Your complaints and talk of definitely wanting a lynch of LUV only came post hammer, which given you'd had a decent amount of time before this strikes as disingenuous in the context of the time.

You allowed it to get into the last few hours of the day without taking a definitive position, to then complain that RC denied you that opportunity is not really fair for you to say. To also claim that you'd have pushed the LUV cart strikes me as fairly opportunistic.

[Sando]

At this point I'm intent to hammer RC for strategic reasons only. I think he'll flip town, but I think we'll get more from his flip than LUV, and time is short for banding up on an alternative.

then

I already said I was intenting to hammer for strategic reasons and that I would prefer to lynch inferno. YOU freaked out and self-voted, taking that option out of town's hands.

then

We'd have a LUV lynch today if RC had freaking held onto his horses and waited to see what the hell I was looking for instead of derp voting himself.

I've missed some posts that in between that I can see nothing substantive in, feel free to show me what I'm missing though.

Complaint that RC self-vote took power and info away from town - Fair
Complaint that RC self-vote stopped a 3rd option - Semi-fair, given (lack of) activity this wasn't happening though
Complaint that LUV would have been the lynch if not for RC self-vote - Not fair, you'd given no indication of this, in fact you'd said 100% the opposite.

The idea that you would have lynched LUV instead of RC is not borne out in your post history, you claiming it strikes me as odd.

[Sando]

Fair.

Thoughts on the quick-lynch now?

[Sando]

I mean I'd happily lynch LUV right now, so we have a quorum, and I've posted reasons why I would agree not to, but I'm also ok with doing it no matter what.

Thoughts on my post as to scums situation and why quick lynch helps? Is my logic off?

[Sando]

I may not actually be able to, no, I'm leaving for between 8-24 hours in a few hours and won't have access here. That said, I'm aware no-QL is the default and people deserve a chance to comment on that before I arbitrarily pull the trigger, so I'll leave it to others if you can't respond before I go for a bit. I may be home in 12 hours or so from now anyway and can hammer then, no promises though.

I think discussion of who is most pro-town or how we ended up with a no-kill night should NOT occur until we've agreed not to QL though. Muddying the water for scum as to which scummy people to NK if they want to swap targets is ok, clearing the water offering up more pro-townies to kill is not ok, at least until we've sorted out the value of QL vs not.

[Sando]

I'm back and no-one is lynched? Well this feels familiar...

So LUV just went up a whole bunch of notches for me:

The worst thing for me as scum would’ve been a no-lynch. I’m the minority. I need to be able to push and drive mislynches to achieve my win-con.

Makes logical sense, right? Except that as scum you have a backup win-condition, NKs. Town have one win condition, lynching, and that's it. That's why no-lynch is generally considered bad town-play (although yes there most definitely are exceptions to this rule, but I've never seen one for D1). The idea that "I'm the minority" is a fundamental misrepresentation of how mafia works, scum are always in the minority, since they win if they're ever in the majority. Town must use their win-condition, they absolutely must, a scum need to mess with that win-condition as well as using their own.

Ask yourself, 5 alive with 2 scum, should you no lynch just because scum is in the minority?

I'm super worried about lack of content from Creature. I ignored lack of posting yesterday because I thought what he did post was reasonable, and I think lynching for lack of posting D1 is a silly idea. But D2 onwards makes that less and less ok, and more and more scummy.

[Sando]

Sure I'll hammer, you have an hour Inferno

[Sando]

Not entirely sure about some of that Inferno, but I'll have a think about it overnight.

VOTE: lil uzi vert

[Sando]

At 6 with 2 scum, we're in MYLO, and scum know whether we have a Doc or not, which would be our only hail-mary in the case of a mislynch. The jailkeeper potentially explains the lack of NK night 1.

Hence, if 2 townies put a 3rd townie on L-2, there's a decent change they get scum hammered for town-loss. So be careful out there!

[Sando]

I really, really wish I'd trusted my gut and just hammered early:

When LUV flips scum, if no one dies tonight, I am 90% sure that we need to lynch Sunlit tomorrow.
If someone dies tonight, Sunlit is conftown.

This is Inferno announcing his JK status and who he'll target if LUV flips scum, which is thrown out the door with LUV being scum.

The only assumption we can possibly make about Inferno JK is that he jailed Sunlit.

If LUV, by some sort of scum miracle, flips town, and no matter what happens, lynch Sunlit.

I'm wrapping my head around what he's saying in terms of this and his actions. My guess is that N1 he offensively jailed, since his reads are different from the rest of towns. I'd say that I was the only obv-town person accepted by enough to bring a protection-jail (other than Inf who can't jail himself afaik), and Inferno wasn't trusting of me enough to protect jail me from his reads. So my assumption from this is that he offensive-jailed Sunlit and is crediting that with the lack of kill N1. Importantly, he does not know if there's a doc in the game.

So here's my thoughts there:
Inferno N1 jailed Sunlit, noone dies N1
Either, Sunlit sent NK action N1, or a Doc saved someone N1
Therefore, if we do not have a Doc, Sunlit is scum

Problem is, Inferno is 100% on Sunlit being scum if LUV is town. Unless he somehow knows something about the setup, which from flips he couldn't, I can't work out how he feels 100% confident of this. That said, my view is we're at 66% chance (2/3rds of the possible setups have no doc) that Sunlit is basically conf-scum...

Anyone want to shoot holes in my logic here, or explain how Inferno felt 100% on Sunlit with a LUV town-flip?

[Sando]

Other options:

Inferno jailed Sunlit who was the NK target - I see little reason why Sunlit would be an NK target, I think Inferno and myself were the most conf-town making us more obvious targets. RCs claim that Sunlit would be the leader we needed was disputed by pretty much everyone involved, including Sunlit. Low probability and I see no value in overly considering it. Inferno himself basically dismisses this as a possibility.

Scum just didn't submit NK - AFAIK we came out of N1 a few hours early, meaning all actions had been submitted. I guess they could have chosen to not submit, but not worth considering imo, could either town-conf a scum or scum-conf a scum with equalish chance, while giving away one of their advantages.

[Sando]

Ok more I think about this the more I think we absolutely must get a claim from Sunlit and potentially lynch there before proceeding with anything else.

As pointed out by Sunlit himself, our PR, if it exists, is out tomorrow regardless (this is actually wrong but not something we should discuss). So let's get that info now!

[Sando]

So you're saying you're a doc or there is a doc?

Just FYI to the doc (or tracker for that matter) if there is one, absolutely

DO NOT COUNTERCLAIM UNLESS SUNLIT ACTUALLY CLAIMS

. This is Sunlit trying to force the conversation about claims to the point of them getting the doc to claim without actually having to claim doc. Sunlit-scum 100% knows if there is a doc, the best case scenario for them is they can get a Doc to confirm that their 2xJK is plausible as town with the night actions, thus outing the doc without Sunlit actually needing to claim doc to force this.

In the event that we have a doc, the scum have a Roleblocker and the scum have no knowledge of who the doc is outside of their reads through the play.

[Sando]

So personally, Sunlit is top of my scumlist regardless of the Inferno JK thing. With that, I can't see us getting around lynching Sunlit. In their own words they were JKd twice, leaving the only Sunlit-town outcome for N1 being that Sunlit was the NK target (unlikely) or the Doc saved someone. Sunlit was the obvious JK target for N2 so the other scum had no issue targeting Inferno.

So basically for Sunlit to be town there must be a doc somewhere. Also that doc had to not target the super obvious JK or got role-blocked (ie is known). This turn of events is highly, highly unlikely.

No claims change this, in fact they potentially hurt town. A doc claim confirming all of the above doesn't change that a) scum have more info than us and can say whatever they want if there is no doc, b) even with the above this merely says Sunlit MAY not be scum, not that they're town.

If we have a doc and they do not claim, there's a chance they stop a NK, which is great, gives us an extra day. If we have a doc and they claim, they die, and it does not clear up Sunlit's alignment.

If we have a tracker, that basically confirms Sunlit as scum and I think the claim also gives us info. Sure they could maybe make another night, but seems like a large risk. I'll take 2 guaranteed nights of info over maybe 3 nights, but that depends on the info I guess, if we have a tracker and you have 2 bad nights of info then probs worth holding onto the claim.

Overall:
Sunlit is my top scum-target regardless of the Inferno JK, and the inferno-JK makes me think they're basically conf-scum.
Not claiming and lynching Sunlit gives our potential PRs a chance to lay low and get us more info or an extra day.
A tracker with something to tell us should probably claim now, any tracker info should be carefully considered by town given it could just as easily be scum pretending.

[Sando]

Sooooo, how'd no-one die night one then?

I'd be happy with a tracker counter-claim. I don't think it's worth a doc counter claim tbh.

[Sando]

@MOD, can I get a confirmation on being blocked by JK and blocked by role-blocker? Are the messages to the blocked person different? Will the blocked person know the difference between being jailed and role-blocked?

Purely asking from a mechanical point of view.

[Sando]

Oh I was looking at the blocker/JK role PMs and the info is on the doing roles.

@MOD - Disregard last, or not, is cool

[Sando]

So what you're saying is that as a tracker, you got blocked N1, the first post D2 from Inferno was suspicious of you, and since no-one died you deduced that he both had to be the JK and scum attacked you.

a) I was also pretty suspicious of you with my opening D2, but you never figured I was the JK
b) You say you want to lay low and hide from suspicion, but you don't buy into my QL to hide info from scum. Not buying into that ended with Inferno dead btw.
c) Inferno re-JKing you was a very high likelihood and instead of trying to actually change the outcome of the game there, you just...let it happen.

I'm not buying it. You deliberately obfuscated to try and get more town talk to make it harder for town-PRs to hide, while now claiming you were lying low to deny scum info. If you were the tracker, and you saw that Inferno was JK-fixated on you, you could either accept that and quietly move on or make a play to at least get some outcome from claims etc. You did neither, resulting in Inferno's death.

Yes, you "cleared" Inferno, but you'd done that multiple times through the game. There was no reason for him to read into that one any differently from the others, and you only said it after tough and repeated prodding by me.

All of this is also contingent on Inferno finding you scummy enough to jail N1 while scum also finding you to be a nice townie to target for N1 action...

Honestly, this makes a LOT more sense with Sunlit-scum and a 2xgoon and JK+VT setup.

N1 - Inferno jails Sunlit who was tapped to do the NK
D2 - Day gets dragged out just enough for JK to out themselves
N2 - Sunlit knows he's the target so gets other goon to kill Inferno
D3 - Sunlit claims the role and outcomes that gives zero info to town

Sunlit has done multiple scummy things, as previously outlined, and the play makes absolutely perfect sense as scum.

The other option is we've run into a perfect storm of an SE+IC TvTing us into oblivion while our JK manages to hit our tracker both nights denying town of any and all info, and our tracker can perfectly pick the game setup from a single line but is just oh so powerless to help town or stop the JK from outing himself...

[Sando]

JK manages to hit our tracker both nights

Edit: JK manages to hit our tracker both nights

while scum also hits tracker N1

[Sando]

But first instinct is that we need everyone (absolutely EVERYONE) to contribute something meaningful today before we start placing lynch votes.

All that being said about Sunlit, pretty much this ^.

We've had Creature lurk through most of D1 and all of D2, and Avi has barely posted either. As fun as it is to pick holes in people's arguments, this is all completely and utterly pointless without input from the rest of the players. Give it a few days (IRL) and I'm completely ok with lynching Creature and living with the consequences one way or the other, it's just frustrating and stupid, regardless of win condition.

[Sando]

This game has been a shit show. Don't make it worse.

I'm really sick and tired of this sort of response, RC has called me an arrogant idiot for my reads (putting you at 2nd scummiest) despite eventually setting his sights on you as his 2nd target with his first being a townie. Inferno has called me an arrogant misreader despite the exact same situation as RC of his first scum-read being town and his 2nd matching mine, then committing suicide as JK. Playing the man and not the ball is an absolutely terrible way to play this game, especially as townie, for example, days 1 and 2. I'll add some wise words:

AtE won't work right now. You can criticize my play post game.

Your play and the situation we're in makes a hell of a lot more sense as scum than as town. It's been a shitshow (the game) either way, but you being town-tracker makes it a really improbable shitshow, rather than just a shitshow.

I could have pushed for a quick hammer on LUV.

I'm literally saying this would have benefited town more than you not doing this, which caused Inferno to out himself to the rest of the player-base. This is an example of you playing scummy, not an example of you ignoring a chance to help scum.

I'll make it super clear: I believe that you, Sunlit, deliberately dilly-dallied in the whole QL of LUV scenario in order to help out the JK. I do not believe that you realised his D2 1st post was JK until after he'd outed himself. I believe you knew the setup (I'm not sure at message received from a doc-block vs a JK-block) or were confused, but you wanted more information on who could have blocked you before heading into N2 after a safe D2 mislynch.

I couldn't exactly say "hey Inferno, you PR, me PR, let's go bash some scum heads in." What I could do was indicate him in the only frigging way I had that I knew what he was and I trusted him.

Given the outcome, according to you, was that our JK died stopping you, our tracker, from doing anything, I'm not sure why doing something to try and stop that from happening wasn't an option? You had to realise that this situation we're in now was a (high) possibility, yet you present the idea of claims as utter insanity. We're in a complete shitshow right now, not least because of what happened D2, to straw-man your options like that is incredibly scummy.

I've outlined why I do not believe your tracker play to be genuine, which you've chosen to ignore and instead present straw-men and playing the man.

Why would scum NK you N1 while Inferno simultaneously jailed you?

[Sando]

Of note, a quick lynch D2 would not have helped Inferno. He posted his read on me almost immediately.

That's only a JK "I jailed this person" post (and I think it's a stretch to say it's obvious) if you know there's a JK. Scum after N1 did not know there was a JK, given their NK was simply "blocked".

[Sando]

Ftr- I get accused of bad play in every game I've ever played. It's part of the game. The common theme is that I struggle with making time sensitive / under pressure decisions. I'm working on it.

/rant

As town there's a very good chance you're accusing town of doing anti-town actions, which as town is basically accusing them of either bad play or being scum. That's just a fundamental part of the game, if people can't accept that then they're not gonna have a good time.

The progression this game seems to be:

*Do something anti-town*
*Have someone point out it's anti-town*
*Attack said someone and call them a moron/arrogant for having that read*
*Completely ignore anti-town actions*

I mean Inferno decided that I was arrogant and had terrible reads for my reads on him despite having the "misread of the game right there" and grossly misrepping me...

/end-rant

More non-metagaming, it was you that brought up "not pushing the LUV QL" as a definitive pro-town move...I could have accepted "I struggle with time sensitive decisions", instead you decided to defend yourself with the idea that it was actually a pro-town move. Operative words there being "could have"

[Sando]

I have no idea why scum would NK me N1. I'm more inclined to think they didn't kill at all, which makes me think we're looking at someone with experience, which points at Creature.

You have made clear that under your claim, scum has Rolecop, meaning they knew the 3 scenarios we could have for town:

• Cop+Tracker
  Tracker+JK
  Neo+Doc

1 flat out investigates N1 (and given the lurking Creature had to know they'd be a good cop target), and also can't give false positives or negatives really
2 gives a psuedo false positive at best, what you're claiming
3 may give a false negative if the doc decides to protect a scum, but also gives an investigator an extra night

Given you've got a 1 in 3 chance of hitting a PR through pure luck with a NK, what makes this a good no-kill situation for scum N1?

[Sando]

I didn't know there would be another role block until night had started.

So you got role-blocked, the

obvious

JK said he'd JKd you and was suspicious. With that info, it's been suuuuper obvious to everyone that he thought he'd JK'd the scum-NKer, and would thus repeat that action. He in fact said exactly that with his final post.

You knew...

[Sando]

Just seems like every time I point out a logical fallacy in your argument you (now) fall back on "zomg stop tunnelling me".

You've seen through previous days that my questioning is to get to a logical conclusion, including on you where I've previously pushed for an answer and backed off once I thought it acceptable.

The thing about Red's question above is that with hindsight, he's really obviously right, you should have claimed Tracker yesterday and asked the JK not to jail you. We'd still have the same outcome today, except you'd have tracked someone (me apparently) and had some info. So the question is whether you should have done that without that benefit of hindsight. You've said the JK claim was super obvious, I've given you plenty of opportunity to claim it was only obvious to you but you've declined said opportunities. So you presumably thought that scum, early D2, knew that Inferno was JK, which means they would also know there was a tracker. Inferno is the easy NK, nothing that can be done to stop it. Everything up to this point is, apparently, super obvious early D2 and you must have realised this. The only possible way we get info N2 is you tracking, and if LUV is town we're gonna need a claim on D3 anyway. This is the situation you found yourself in during D2.

You could claim, thereby showing us all that scum NKd you N1, we can start looking into that. Also means Inferno doesn't jail you and you get info N2, or they kill you N2 and we have a jailer possibly doing work.
You could not claim, risk being jailed again while the JK dies, giving town absolutely zero useful info, which is exactly what happened.

With hindsight, the choice is obvious. The question is whether that's a fair assessment to make, and I think that with your own words, it is a fair assessment. You thought Inferno was super obvious JK from post 1 on D2, therefore scum did too, therefore Inferno was dead N2. So is the risk of getting jailed worth taking when a PR is going to die N1? No, not in my assessment.

Falling back on "yeah but it's bad play to 2xJK someone with 2 scum alive" with the play that's been shown in this game is...well we've seen some bad play here, I don't see that as an acceptable fallback position.

[Sando]

Oh right, I'm here, been following along to the huge discussion happening right here...

Not entirely sure where both Sunlit's tracking claim on me and subsequent scum-accusation or Creatures latest comment is coming from, but Red's question is fairly decent there. I'm getting less and less scum vibes from Red as the game progresses, he's making decent points, if not always expressed in best ways.

[Sando]

So are we lynching creature or no lynching

No lynching is an option, although doesn't gain much if Scum don't kill.

Whoever made the point about hoping that non-sunlit scum today flips as a Rolecop and confirms Sunlit is our best chance to be honest.

[Sando]

Yeah let's lynch sunlit

No my point was not lynch Sunlit. Whilst I'm fairly ok on him being scum, there's at least one scum out there other than him and we can't mislynch again anyway. If we lynch a scum and it's a role-cop then Sunlit is town-confirmed. If we hit a role-blocker (hugely unlikely) then Sunlit is scum-confirmed without needing a counter claim. If we hit goon then sunlit is in the same position, but now scum have to decide whether to ignore Sunlit and risk being tracked to keep pressure on them, or hit the tracker and confirm someone as town that we mostly think is scum.

Not a great chance of actually making a difference, but a slim chance is better than none, and it costs us nothing.

[Sando]

OMG I didn't hit submit on this stupid post and it's not even that long -.-

I don't really like Red's ISO at all. There isn't anything all that useful there and this struck me as odd

Also what Im thinking is after that town flip, if we have a jailkeeper they probably jailkept LUV. Also LUV wanting to nolynching seems like they need to do more investigations. So there are probably mafia rolecop. That gives me B Row 3 and there are also tracker in that setup and they probably tracked me after RC calling them to investigate me. But this is just a guess

There are multiple setups with JailKeeper. Why did Red come to the conclusion that this one is the one with RoleCop? Given that Sunlit has now claimed Tracker, if Sunlit is town, this does indeed seems to be the case. There is something really weird to me about this hypothesizing by Red and now the Tracker claim by Sunlit. I don't THINK this would be a calculated attempt by both.

Oh wow, I completely missed this part of Red's post, and go back and read it, what nav's pulled out here is part of a long post but there's no context around this. There's absolutely no way that Red could have known this. There's not just multiple setups with JK, there's 5 possible setups from the 9 that had the N1 result, not including no-kill submission.

[Sando]

I am not ENTIRELY opposed to no-lynch however as that once again puts scum in a spot where they have to decide what to do.

Problem here is why would scum submit a kill? We're already in lylo (I think, the one where we mislynch and you def lose), so they don't need to kill. We have a tracker, a (conveniently) useless PR if nothing gets submitted, and even if Sunlit is tracker, well scum don't exactly need to role-cop do they.

[Sando]

If scum don't submit a kill we're just back to the drawing board again haha. I didn't actually consider scum No Killing though so you have a good point. I still wouldn't lynch Sunlit today though.

Unless there's a draw mechanic I'm not aware of forcing them to eventually kill? Yeah Sunlit is scum, but a bad lynch for today.

[Sando]

Ugh, the game is hard.

Complaining about game is a scumtell and only both sunlit and creature did it

Um....this is blatantly false.

True, but it is really annoying when the person with by far the least engagement complains about the game...

Wait, did I just complain about the game?

[Sando]

Oh by the by, we should not no-lynch, had a think about it.

We no-lynch, they either kill Sunlit or no-kill, don't see much point for them to kill someone other than Sunlit.

We lynch scum (cause this doesn't matter if we mislynch), they either kill Sunlit or someone else. If they kill Sunlit, cool, that clears a lot up. If they don't kill Sunlit, he makes it a 1v1 or 1v2 with his investigation. If he accuses someone you know it's between Sunlit and that guy. If he clears someone then they're clear.

They both have the same worst-case, but the lynch best case is better.

[Sando]

I was referring to Creature tbh Engagement from anyone never a bad thing though.

[Sando]

Regarding Creature, I think the days that we can treat lack of engagement as NIA are past us. You fundamentally rely on townies playing the game to win the game as town, and all townies are responsible for helping in that regard. We're stuck in complete guesswork specifically because of lack of engagement, knowing that engagement is pro-town, not providing it for such a long period of time can ONLY be seen as scummy.

[Sando]

2 lynch votes on Creature already in a MyLo situation. Red and avi

This should be a clear indication that there can be at most 1 Mafia in Sando, Sunlit and thenavneet (me)

Could be useful down the line.

Shhhhhhh, not meant to talk about this until people have had a chance to notice.

But yeah, tis true given now me and you have posted and I'm going to assume Sunlit is somewhere nearby.

[Sando]

I feel like with your Tracker claim and what Red said earlier, it's unlikely you two are together.

Explain this one for me? We don't actually know that we have a tracker, it could be 2xgoon and a JK, making the entire setup a scum concoction that we can't actually prove through flips, in which case I'd read red's earlier talk about setup as a pretty clear Red+Sunlit team possibility. Or do you mean different "red said earlier"?

Given I think that:
a) Sunlit is right, scum wouldn't bus at this point
b) thenav is about the only person I'd put money on town
c) double scum would not vote someone right now, nor hold it this long
d) therefore it's either 1 scum on the wagon 1 not, or 2 scum off
e) if it's 1 scum on they're not voting their partner, so it's not creature, and I'd leave out thenav, I think most would leave me out, leaving...Sunlit paired with Avi or Red
f) if it's 2 townies, then with thenav as clear as I can get, that leaves creature and sunlit as scum.

To my mind, it's red or creature paired with Sunlit. My personal preference would be to lynch one of these, assuming we hit scum and assuming there's a NK and assuming the lynched scum is a goon, if Sunlit gets a guilty, you have it at a 50/50 between Sunlit and that person, if sunlit gets a nothingburger, lynch sunlit regardless. If sunlit is killed well I think we just got a whole bunch of info out of today.

oh and g) scum would def point out that scum wouldn't bus right now then bus right after...

[Sando]

Guess this is down to me and you nav, I'm leaning Red, but Transcends read of the RC wagon and Sunlit's involvement is fairly off-base up there...

[Sando]

I mean you're welcome to tell me how that's off base because i don't think I'm gonna read this game

I mean if you're gonna analyse wagons and a townie self-hammering doesn't pique your interest enough to look through that bit at least...not sure you should be using it as the basis for your reads.

[Sando]

Therefore the wagonomics in this case are correct.

This doesn't change that what you said about Sunlit and the RC wagon is incorrect with context. Given we've got a 2/2/2 split with me and thenav being the vote-casters to decide today it seems, and both of us seemingly pretty onboard with a Sunlit+X scumteam, getting something fundamentally wrong about said Sunlit on a townies wagon struck me as scummy, hence I mentioned it, primarily to thenavneet.

[Sando]

We actually went through this at the start of today, in depth, about the possibilities presented by the Sunlit tracker claim, pretty sure we understand it.

[Sando]

Cool, so with voting patterns now, if I assume nav is town, then it's either Transcend+Sunlit or Red+Avi. Given I'd give a 50/50 between Trans and Red, and 90/10 between Sun and Avi, that makes it about as clear as I can get.

VOTE: Transcend

[Sando]

It's really frustrating when you guys just want to be arrogant ****s all the time. Me and Nav talked through a lot of the whole no-lynch scenarios etc in a cool, calm, non dickish way, and you two now think it's cool to just deride thenavneet and completely ignore the conversation. We talked through no-lynch, we talked through why Sunlit looks bad, we talked through why Red looks bad, we talked through why creature looks bad. Any of that you could have commented on, instead you just want to tell us we're wrong.

You had your opportunity to engage, you didn't.

[Sando]

Mostly I just want out of a newbie game cause you guys getting your rocks off talking down to people is getting really old.

[Sando]

Sorry I didn't realise I could PM mod to speed up the night with the speed actions thing until this morning, never seen that before.

I'm away for the next ~24 hours and will only have a few hours tomorrow to post before another ~24 hours.

To my mind it's down to Red vs Avi. Least there's no claims to get out of the way today.

[Sando]

So unless someone can bring up something really juicy on Nav, I'm ruling him town, I basically told him I'd vote Red pretty happily yesterday and he pushed away onto Transcend.

Between Red and Avi, I'd lean Red. On both town lynches compared to Avi's 1. The tracker thing Nav brought up still pings me hugely, that's not info that VTs have. We also now know that Sunlit was the NK target N1, and Sunlit was pretty anti-Red day1. I thought I was most pro-town so assumed I'd die, but I was giving Creature a pass for lurking and was also pushing back against Red pressure, so Sunlit would have been a better NK target than me.

[Sando]

Why do you think nav is town?

Because in the event that thenav is scum, he had the perfect opportunity to get me to hammer you (Red) yesterday and win the game right there, I basically told him flat out I'd hammer you if he felt that way. Beyond that, he's been very pro-town in the last 2 days.

[Sando]

My only thought to draw was if there's been like 3 days of no lynch and no NK then the mod just declares a draw. It was something I was considering yesterday given the s***show we had. Today we have a pretty good shot here at a town-win I think.

I think NL is a bad idea today, and I think Red knows it. At the moment you need 3 to lynch, so it's significantly hard to lead a quick train on someone. But tomorrow with 3 alive, beeeeest case scenario we're in the same position we are now, with me or Nav deciding between Red and Avi. When all you have to do is get a single townie to agree with you, it's significantly easier to get a mislynch as scum I think.

I just don't see any upside to it, with the potential for downside.

[Sando]

Transcend mafia vote him

Everyone alive right now voted Transcend, by definition scum voted for their partner yesterday. Nav gets the most town-points for jumping on at a 2-2, but beyond that I don't think we can really read a whole lot into it.

[Sando]

So I'm about to be away for another 24 hours as I mentioned. Given it takes 3, this is fairly safe:

VOTE: Redflavour

So if you read Sunlit's ISO around Day1 you'll see a lot of attention given to Red. If you read my ISO from Day1 you'll see basically no attention given to Red or Creature, and I think I was the most obv-town. Inferno was second most obv-town imo and was pushing Red a little bit, but not hugely. I think you have to rationalise why someone not obv-town was the target for N1, so why wasn't it Inferno or me? Because Sunlit was pushing Red, and me and Inferno were basically ignoring Creature, and I was completely ignoring Red. It makes sense to kill off Sunlit and leave 2 townies not investigating you as Red+Creature.

Red's scumslip on the setup is fairly damning. To be that spot on is something that to my mind comes out of scum-talk, it was not something a VT would know (as a VT this is fairly obvious to me).

The only thing pinging me atm is that Red pushed Sunlit+Creature pretty hard, when with the rolecop being lynched, Sunlit HAD to die overnight, leaving no viable target for Red to lead a mislynch against. Then again he's leading a no-lynch wagon so...

[Sando]

Also I have been tr'ing sando because he made long posts that look gamesolvy but...

I've made multiply "gamesolvy" posts, including things about how we shouldn't lynch Sunlit (although I think nav might have beaten me to that), why we shouldn't no-lynch etc. All of those turned out to be the best option, whilst you continued to push for a sunlit lynch, which I had to talk you down from.

He made his account in 2009 and I guess he is a really experienced player, so that should not be a problem for him.

I finished my last game before this one around about 2012, so yeah I've been on the site for a long time, but I haven't been playing games for quite a while.

None of this changes the actual goings on of this game, Sunlit was the NK1 target and that makes sense with Red+Creature pairing. You've basically failed to scumhunt the entire game except pushing wagons, until today when you've suddenly gained a voice. You also scum-slipped with the setup, which you haven't explained either.

[Sando]

I'm away for next 24 hours, that'll be the last awayness for me in this game I think.

[Sando]

Not much new to say right now except I'll say that I don't see myself voting against Sando here. I've TR'ed him since Day 1. It's still between Red and avi for me with a very strong lean against Red.

What if you were wrong since d1?

Then I lose. Asking a question like this doesn't seem helpful lol.

I simply don't understand this logic that has been shown this game. Sometimes you get it wrong, you learn from it and you move on, but you're not an idiot for getting it wrong. It seems like any time someone gets accused they revert to "well I'm town so you're wrong and you're therefore an idiot". You're silly for ignoring evidence that points to the opposite conclusion that you're drawing, but if the evidence points to scum, and you lynch them, that's not you being stupid, it's you following evidence.

Red if you want to convince us (well thenav since you've decided I'm your mislynch target), you need to address the evidence, not the conclusion.

[Sando]

Thenav, since discussion is hard to come by, what'd you think of Sunlit's take that Inferno was obv-JK based on his first D2 post, in light of Sunlit being truthful about that? I think Sunlit was the only person at that point in time with knowledge of what happened 100% since he was blocked and therefore either the target or no-kill. Think scum would reasonably deduce JK involvement and who it was? Think reasonable for VT to deduce JK involvement and who it was?

[Sando]

^I guess an answer to that could help coach scum-Red about his scumslip, so feel free not to answer. To my mind though, he's been given many opportunities to explain the scum-slip and refused to do so.

[Sando]

I don't see Inferno's post at the start of the day as obv JK. From Sunlit's perspective, yes. From a VT's, no.

Cool, same page then.

Avi we need movement or content.

[Sando]

Idk I feel like this is stagnant so none of my opinions are changing really

I mean Red has been promising to "post it later" since the start of the game and never actually does, so I don't think there's a need to wait for that.

Personally I'm good with lynching Red now and getting this over with. You need Nav as well so with 4 alive you can be pretty liberal with your votes (this is why I think scum wanted a no lynch).

[Sando]

I'm here, I honestly don't really know what to say, I've tried to move this, any arguments are just ignored by the other people. My vote is where it is, I'd be more than happy with a Red lynch at this stage.

[Sando]

The day 4 "take a long time, don't really do anything, and then just more or less pile onto red for reasons taht I don't think were ever really stated and fleshed out" was also bad

God I was so disinterested by end of Day 3 and then Day 4, I stated in 1531 exactly why I was voting Red, which was never addressed by anyone, and apparently the mod missed it too. You don't flesh things out in a vacuum, and pretty much no-one was talking.

Well played I guess scum? Thenav played well, although yeah you'd have 100% had the lynch on Red D3 if you'd wanted. Lurking through 3 days is just boring, I don't understand why play the game if you're going to do it, as scum or town. Transcend's catchup pinged me fairly hard, but mostly in a Sunlit+Trans way, and it certainly threw the cat (thenav) amongst the pigeons there so it worked well there. Unnecessary, and honestly I was closer to voting nav on D4 than D3, but well played regardless.

Pretty much every person voted used the "but I'm toooooooooown" refrain, as if the person voting them is an idiot because they're town

and how can't they see that?!

. Complain about peoples reads all you want, but being pro-town makes those reads 100% easier and almost infinitely hard for scum to hide from. There was sooooo little pro-town work being done this game that I, the person who led D1 mislynch, and hammered D2 mislynch, was considered the most townie person in the game, which says a lot about the rest of town...

Sunlit talked at some point about Day-scum talk throwing him off and boooooooy was that true. Having not been here since 2012, is that a sitewide thing now or part of the setup? I'd argue it's more powerful than anything to do with the setup, and yeah it COMPLETELY threw some of my reads.

Scum - was me or Sunlit right about Inferno? Was the JK/Tracker read obvious from his first post D2?

[Sando]

Yeah that was pretty much what pinged me, certainly got the impression you came in with the intention of playing the game rather than understanding what had happened and trying to solve. Certainly felt you were helping your mate, honestly thought you were helping Sunlit til the rolecop flip which threw me through the spinner, and then thought it must've been setting up SvS to clear Red with the flip.

Not bad play, just obvious, whether that made it more or less effective I dunno, but it was effective Certainly more enjoyable to interact with than a wall.

[Sando]

Not one of the scumreads on me made sense and I stand by that: you should really stop and think about what went wrong with both your read and your approach to scumreading me because this was a complete implosion.

Seriously dude, how far up yourself do you want to be? Ignoring mafiascum for a moment, you really need to learn to take responsibility for your own actions if you're going to improve as a human being.

I'm reading the dead thread(s) and everyone there is asking questions, taking feedback, accepting responsibility whilst also explaining their play. LUV basically says "I didn't want to lead newbies with meta-read, but I didn't accomplish it very well and wasn't happy with my IC play". Sunlit has a massive blow up with me D3 when I basically call her play stupid for not claiming early D2, and she's posting in dead chat asking whether I was right and when mhsmith walks them through it, is accepting and grateful with a response of "thanks, something to consider next time". Those reactions are mature reactions, and both of those people have learnt something about the game and about themselves and they'll be better people for it.

But your reaction, which throughout the dead thread is "damn my reads were spot on" (LOL), and "wow what a moron", are just super immature. You got lynched D1, and the only thing you can say is "you guys are all morons". Your read on LUV was just flat out wrong and was out of line in a lot of ways, and you also did what the IC you think is an idiot tried not to do, led town with non newbie-friendly strats. When called out on those you resorted to petulance and calling people idiots, oh and doing one of the most obvious scum-moves ever and self voted/hammered.

You seem to think that the best course of action in any game is to just blindly follow you, and any attempt to deviate from that is just sheer stupidity. How on earth you think that is in any way a good learning experience for newbies is beyond me, but then arrogance knows no bounds apparently.

[Sando]

I thought that my posts showed enough natural progression to justify a Creature/Red scum team

Yeah I think if you were the rolecop then it was 100% the right decision, the only issue was going to be this:

The only thing pinging me atm is that Red pushed Sunlit+Creature pretty hard, when with the rolecop being lynched, Sunlit HAD to die overnight, leaving no viable target for Red to lead a mislynch against.

This was pinging me more and more, and I think if Avi/Red had picked it up I would have eventually been talked around to lynching you. I threw it out there but no-one was engaging except you, I should have trusted gut more, but I just felt I wasn't getting anywhere in a 3-way and I needed to eliminate someone and I knew in my heart you could have had Red dead the day before. But I fell into the same trap as Sunlit, projecting information I had onto other people.

With Creature/Trans being the rolecop, borderline decision, but you'd done good work on D3 either way, I don't think any decision was the obvious right/wrong call.

[Sando]

Creature had caught onto Sunlit being a PR during D1 itself which is why Sunlit was our first Nightkill target

Orly? As you can see it was that NK that eventually hard-coded me onto Red D4 thinking that was the best answer for why Sunlit was the NK target, was that a meta read, or something in game?

[Sando]

Sunlit talked at some point about Day-scum talk throwing him off and boooooooy was that true. Having not been here since 2012,

is that a sitewide thing now or part of the setup?

Anyone got an answer on this one?

[Sando]

Hard to tell from this game how it went, but yeah it certainly felt overpowered for scum, and a lot of my "wow that looks coached" reads were actually totally NIA and I didn't realise till I'd been in the game a few IRL days and by that point I was certainly biased by then and it was a struggle to work my mind out of that. Then again we basically threw away all of our PR power with a JK suicide note and our tracker not claiming, so it's hard to evaluate overall power there.

Maybe make it a bit more explicit and called out in the setup post? Then again I'm a non-newbie newbie, I doubt many other newbies were looking for "coaching" posts and thus probably weren't confused like me, might just be a me thing.

[Sando]

Maybe make it a bit more explicit and called out in the setup post?

It’s in the sample role PMs tho? I GUESS it could be an explicit point under the matrix table but it’s oretty clear if you’re looking for info *shrugs*

Yeah I eventually found it by myself and tried to adjust, but I came in with about 30 pages to read and an in-depth analysis of scum roles wasn't really high on my priority list. I looked at the template, but again, I was VT so I knew I had no info to really get into it so why spend my limited mental energy focused there?

I think the issue is, why would town look for that info? Hence my question about it being site-wide. If it's a thing now where some setups have day-talk and some don't then yeah, people should know to look for it. But it never even occurred to me to look for that info.

[Sando]

Really that it seemed overpowered for scum?

I was sweating bullets at the possibility of it being town neopolitan + town doctor.

More that I think day-talk is a bigger advantage to scum than any role they could possibly get.

Overpowered scum, well I think one game obviously isn't enough info to go off. And I think that given that one of the biggest advantages scum get is day-talk, town should be made very very aware of it up front. It's hidden behind a spoiler tag for one, and is only in the role description for the roles that town by definition are not. The game felt overpowered for scum, but I think a lot of that was towns misplays rather than just the setup, but it's always hard to judge that, and impossible off one game.

[Sando]

Feels like if Town hits Rolecop/Roleblocker early it gives them a massive leg up simply because it rules out column C, and forces a lot of hands when it comes to claims, and gives Town PRs free reign.

Also maybe any new setup favours scum for a bit while the meta shifts around and people work out how the roles and setup works? Scum have a chance to discuss it and strategise, town can only really make do and work through their own best-practice and then discuss after the game. Sunlit and Inferno would undoubtedly play very differently given their "practice" here and if they'd had access to a bit more "accepted meta" on claims etc with this setup.

[Sando]

Cop/Tracker 60%
JK/Tracker: 65% (this should be the highest town win rate I think)

Ignoring actual numbers, why is double investigate better than JK/Tracker?

Seems like much less chance of confusion from double investigate, and JK seems like a bit of a "win more" role, where if you hit a scum early they become super powerful, but aren't as good at actually deciding the game.

[Sando]

^^^why isn't* double investigate better than JK/Tracker?

[Sando]

Oh right, yeah I forgot the bit about there being no tracker on column A, so tracker knew they'd been JKd not RBd+Doc'd. I think I'd worked that out at the time but it's a bit of a headspin doing that as a VT without the information.

[Sando]

the jailkeeper has a 1/6 (after a day 2 lynch)

1/5 maybe even? 7 alive after 2 lynches and no NKs, confirmed from themselves and probably consider tracker confirmed too.

Yeah can see how that's really powerful, wish we'd done that.