Newbie 1845 - A New Dawn Game Over
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Hey all, just finished reading through and taking notes.
Firstly,@mod, there hasn’t been an extension yeah? We’ve got about 24-30 hours until sundown by my calcs? Someone previously said they’re not fussed by non-lynches even on day1, I’m definitely not in that camp. So let’s stop messing about, and I for one will take waffling at this point as scummy, assuming I'm right in what I've just said about timeline.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Inferno
I think my vote was already there from pre-swap, but just want to make sure, I'm not sure of protocol when swapping in. Sorry my previous incarnation was a **** to you Inferno, that wasn’t cool…but you’re still scum.
Read on Inferno in next post
Read on other scumleans in post after that-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Inferno:
So Inferno starts in 102 attacking Sheep, and I’ll say straight up that I think Inferno is flat out wrong to say that Sheep wasn’t contributing/scumhunting. That’s not to say that Sheeps actions were fine, but I think he most definitely was contributing. Inferno in 102 goes after Sheep but doesn’t actually go all the way and accuse, or even vote Sheep. Given Inferno is pretty obsessed with “shading”, this seems like some pretty hardcore projection here.
Inferno 194 is really scummy, basically any discussion of roles D1 is anti-town.
Inferno 220 is going after sheep for defending aggressiveness with the question of “who even mentioned aggressiveness”, ignoring that Sunset said that of Sheep in her 189.
In 336 Inferno goes for a meta read on sheep and claims that Sheep is “so scum it’s ridiculous”. As part of that meta read Inferno used a town-game to try and show Sheeps scum-meta.
In 477 Inferno says:
Sheep has never claimed that they don’t shitpost, just that they ALSO contribute a lot. This is absolutely a terrible misrep from Inferno, and it’s not a mistake, this conversation has been going on for a long time by this point. Showing that there’s post after post of Sheep not contributing does not refute anything that Sheep has said.And now he's adamant that he's contributed to this game, whereas I can hit post after post where he actually has not.
In 478 Inferno says:
What? Putting more pressure on someone who looks bad is scummy?! That’s what the game is all about.This is when it occurred to me that you could be scum trying to use this rule of threes ploy to put incredible stress on a player who already looked bad.
In 533 Inferno accuses LUV of putting someone to L-1 when it was really L-2. This is fairly egregious given the votecount is at the top of the page and as Inferno says:
Bolding mine.I think the point of this specific argum-- I mean, conversation is not whteher or not it's NAI but thatyou need to actually read posts before you reply to themplease and thank you.
#617 Inferno: Immediately attacks his accuser, misrepresents RCs vote. RC voted due to change from meta, Inferno claims it was because of apparent SvS with Sunset.
In 675 Inferno says he wants to see RCs claim. To me this is the second clear anti-town move from Inferno regarding claims.
Overall there’s a clear pattern of anti-town actions in terms of claims etc, and there’s been some very consistent misrepresentations going on, mostly of Sheep but also of some others. As for the meta read, I’d agree with RC that this is a fairly wild divergence from the linked game. How Sunlit can think otherwise blows my mind at this point, but more on that later!-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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The rest of you:
Alright so other than Inferno, who’s pinging my scumdar?
Well there’s obviously the lurkers, but they’re swapping in/out etc and I don’t really have much to add there. I find it also hard to notice lurking in a catchup read since I’m reading a whole bunch of text in a short time, so it doesn’t seem like someone has gone quiet since it’s only been a few minutes since I read their last post.
Sunlit:
Sunlit made the first good point of the game, that Avi called out the L-1 in RVS without actually removing their own vote.
Sunlit then said this:
“Inferno was so transparently, unfakeably, town in art deco it was painful.”
Which having read some of deco is an OTT but not outrageous statement. However, the weird defence of this and the idea that Inferno is “within his town meta” to me says that Sunlit is basically saying that Inferno is acting painfully transparently and unfakeably town in this game too. That statement simply cannot be accepted as true for this game, whatever you think of Inferno’s alignment, he has not been painfully, transparently and unfakeably townie.
In 414 Sunlit even goes so far as to say “of course he could be faking it”. Given the description Sunlit gave was “unfakeably town”, what?
Any reasonable person by post 413 (when it gets posted) would read a large difference between this game and the linked game of Inferno’s. Whether you think that’s enough to lynch Inferno or not, Sunlit’s position on this is not at all reasonable.
It’s not until 545 that Sunlit starts walking back support for meta-Inferno, votes for him in 563…for 7 messages and back onto red in 570. RC immediately upon entering the game identifies the change in Inferno-meta, at which point Sunlit goes back to voting Inferno.
Yes my read is basically based on one thread, but it’s just so mind-blowing that Sunlit would believe what he was saying.
Avi:
Avi did a bunch of scummy stuff then went QUIET. Sunlit and others pointed out his callout of RVS L-1 without removing his vote, and yeah that was super scummy. Avi addressed that issue with “I wanted to keep pressure on” but then removed the pressure (55). Also the excuse that the person was a loose cannon and he wanted to be careful makes no sense given the “loose cannon” was already self voting and as such was no further threat.
Avi goes very quiet for extended periods, although in 321 comes in to unvote and remove pressure, and gets very defensive when this is pointed out.
Saul/RC:
So I wasn’t really onboard with the early Saul train, but threatening sheep with a counter-lynch in 295 was…not great. Basically lurks/drops though so not much more read.
RC though…whoa there boy. Ok the claim strat thing was…weird, but the setups for newbies is very different from when I previously played so I don’t really know what to make of it. The defence in 619 that they’ve recently arrived and basically should be given a pass into day 2…absolutely no way that’s happening. Also apparently we’re close enough to sundown that we should give him a pass, but he’s getting jumpy and stops the L-1 train on Inferno reeeeally late in the day.
Saying he’s going to be forced to claim in 673 is seemingly out of nowhere, and yeah I think pretty scummy.
692 is actually an excellent post, certainly pushed him down my scum-list.
#727 and others RC: “you’re gonna look stupid when I flip town” is not an experienced players response to being pushed. Appeals directly to Inferno’s emotions. Funnily enough from his wiki, appealing to emotions is exactly what RC worked on for his scum-games (1769 - Happy New Year).
Sunset:
I haven't actually got a strong read on Sunset, except to say that they're parrotting a lot. Nearly everything I've seen from them has been a parrot of someone's earlier points.
#189 Sunset: Points out the Avi called out L-1 without removing vote.
#445 Sunset: Parrots Inferno’s “sheep is saying little” while maintaining town read. This is despite previously saying Sheep was "aggressive"
Also #443 Sunset: Didn’t realise they were putting red at L-1 and doesn’t remove vote. The vote was basically in response to being voted by Sheep, so they basically put someone at L-1 immediately after being voted…scum-read. It is their first game though.
So who have I missed?
Red - Honestly haven't seen what all the fuss is about with Red, he's done a few dodges, but not egregious imo. I'll have another read through focusing on Red though.
LUV - Very little read here, leaning town
Creature - Reasonably strong lead town. He was the first in 280 to start questioning wagons, something really important to keep an eye on.
Overall I think Red/LUV/Creature are my most townie. Sunlit and Avi are my strongest pings outside of Inferno. RC is a wildcard that I would like more information on (so yeah I'll give you a pass D1 after all lol), but I'm certainly not town-sold on. Sunset has skated through, certainly leaning scummy in my books but some of that is based on activity and I don't like voting on that D1.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Welcome thenavneet.In post 815, mhsmith0 wrote:thenavneet replaces Sunset at Dawn effective immediately. Day 1 deadline will be 3 days from now, rounded down to top of the hour.
Cool with the new deadline, still short enough that we should not be messing around. I don't feel it changes my statement on people like RC derailing a train so close to deadline, as afaik this is the first deadline move.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Yes, and the conclusion you came to was the placing pressure on someone who "looks bad" is not a good thing. Seeing someone doing things that make them "look bad" and putting pressure on them to try and determine their alignment is the basic summary of town-play.In post 837, Inferno390 wrote:#478 was me questioning both my reads on Saul and Red, because what I thought was scumhunting from Red was actually just him asking a lot of questions and not giving us any real reads. So it looked like Red tying to force a mislynch on Saul.
You have gone after sheep because he wasn't paying attention to what was being said. Vote counts are not hard to read when it's the top of the page and there's been one vote. Vote counts and L-1 statements are also very, very important to get right, far more so than off-hand comments in a flurry of a crazy 1v1. It was extremely careless of you, and also part of a pattern given the 478 of you responding to Saul pressure with OMG STAAAHP! (see above)In post 837, Inferno390 wrote:#533 was me misreading the votecount and makinga calculation on the votecount from there. that's hardly AI, and you're totally taking the quote to make that scummy out of context, where sheep was constantly responding to posts in a way that he wasn't reading posts AT ALL. Which does imply a difference from what I did.
No, no it's not.In post 837, Inferno390 wrote:#675 is just NAI.
I look forward to hearing it!In post 837, Inferno390 wrote:I feel like there's a lot of stuff in his reads on everyone else too, but I'll get to that in a sec.
Oh..."uncomfortable", ok, good talk.In post 839, Inferno390 wrote:I'm very uncomfortable with Sando's reads on everyone else too. Perhaps it's just an older way of playing, but to me it seems very misrepresentative of everyone in the game so far.
I've noticed that the references to out of game things is vastly, vastly higher than previously, and that makes me uncomfortable, I don't really know what to make of it. I've never seen someone use IC being a bad IC as a scum-read for example, but people seem to accept this. If RC had made the "claim strat" talk 5 years ago he'd have been instantly lynched, but the format of newbie games has changed markedly since then, as it seems peoples attitudes have as well.
I barely mentioned your meta in my read on you, I've mostly referenced it with Silent, and that's because his read/defence of you with it was absolutely ludicrous.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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RC this is in no way shit advice. The idea that you should just give up on reads because the person swaps out is actually terrible advice, which you seem to be implying. Sure, if the read is based on lurking and the person swaps out, then you should re-evaluate, but if the person is acting scummy, you don't just forget that if they swap out. You're basically asking someone to lose information, and information is fundamentally pro-town. LUV even says "content", specifically saying that it's not about lurking etc that is further explained by the swap.LUV wrote:I don’t think this is the right mindset to have right now. Was Saul a difficult read? Yes, but if you strongly feel the content that you did manage to understand is coming from scum, no replacement can change that.
I honestly thought the "I don't mind no lynching" was far, far worse advice than encouraging a mislynch.RC wrote:like this is on the border but fuck no in context this post was made because you wanted to encourage a mislynch on me without considering other people.
So while we're on the subject of being a role model:RC wrote:Don't teach newbies to shit tunnel people and refuse to engage with them, I've taken my losses without being an IC trying to be a better role model and that's from a person who is systematically correct enough to justify hardcore tunneling. You owe your job as an IC better.
andBeing a good IC Wiki wrote:Most of us know that there are very, very few circumstances when self-voting and/or hammering (as Town) is actually helpful to the town.This type of behavior should be kept out of Newbie games, because it does not teach the new players how to play the game correctly.
So should we take you at your word that you try to set a good example? The idea that you're actually in any way helping new players here is utterly ludicrous. I'm comfortable with an RC lynch today.Being a good IC Wiki wrote: Of course, if you're scum then feel free to self-vote/self-hammer. Self-voting/self-hammering as scum denies the town information and IS playing toward your win condition by confusing the remaining townies and allowing your partner to hide in the confusion.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Ok so your response to me posting my first real post(s) at a bit over 1200 words:RC wrote:Am I encouraging newbies to selfvote? Fuck no, because largely they can't determine what the correct situation to do so is. And generally I try to set a good role model for everyone and not just myself, like I linked to you in several games where I said that I assessed my own reads as the best in the game and a specific person as scum but chose to lynch the person scumread by the majority of players instead because that's USUALLY the correct play, but I think that me being scumread here is a very teachable moment because it's so flagrantly fucking wrong.
I am the objectively most obvious town in this game by any measure of towniness, I've tried hard to scumhunt, I've been reevaluating reads, I've been trying to make a good newer player experience, I've shown genuine emotion in how I've responded to things. I should not be scumread. Me being scumread isn't just slightly off kilter here it's mind blowing.
So just to recap, your "creating a good new player experience" plan is:RC wrote:Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.
I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.
Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.
Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.
1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.
2) Self vote to set up a plan where town lynches a townie then blindly lynches 3 other players for the win, because apparently this is fun and interactive gameplay that will teach newbies how to play the game...
3) Complain about a derp-tunnel which in your own reads is 2 scum, 1 townie and yourself (red, LUV being your said scumpool and 2 of the 3 votes on you). I'm sure things have changed since I last played, but 2 scums and a townie (in your reads) running a train on a townie doesn't really meet the definition of a derp-tunnel to me...
4) Not actually reply to my statements about some of your (yes you, not Saul) actions being scummy-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Before I continue this response: did I say you denigrated me AT ALL? Or did I say you denigrated my reads? I'm saying you appealed to (your own) authority, if we wanna go full wiki. I'm saying it was scummy, not that you were an ass.In post 854, RadiantCowbells wrote:
Before I continue this response: did I denigrate you, the person behind the game AT ALL?1) Denigrate someone's townreads based purely on the fact that they don't match your, an SEs, reads.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Here ya go:
Sando wrote:Saul/RC:
So I wasn’t really onboard with the early Saul train, but threatening sheep with a counter-lynch in 295 was…not great. Basically lurks/drops though so not much more read.
RC though…whoa there boy. Ok the claim strat thing was…weird, but the setups for newbies is very different from when I previously played so I don’t really know what to make of it. The defence in 619 that they’ve recently arrived and basically should be given a pass into day 2…absolutely no way that’s happening. Also apparently we’re close enough to sundown that we should give him a pass, but he’s getting jumpy and stops the L-1 train on Inferno reeeeally late in the day.
Saying he’s going to be forced to claim in 673 is seemingly out of nowhere, and yeah I think pretty scummy.
692 is actually an excellent post, certainly pushed him down my scum-list.
#727 and others RC: “you’re gonna look stupid when I flip town” is not an experienced players response to being pushed. Appeals directly to Inferno’s emotions. Funnily enough from his wiki, appealing to emotions is exactly what RC worked on for his scum-games (1769 - Happy New Year).-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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I'm calling it scummy because it's commonly accepted as anti-town. Play how you play, but commonly accepted principles should be referenced and explained as to why it's not the case in this instance. "Hey I'm doing this thing that you normally shouldn't do because it gets outcome xyz and that's pro-town", not "hey I'm doing this normally anti-town thing but that's just how I am, so deal with it".I think that you're largely calling it scummy because you don't understand the way that I play, which I understand for my part but what do you think the actual scum motivation was for me to claim VT there?
You're simultaneously making claim to being the most obvious pro-town person ever, and defending anti-town plays with "that's just how I am".No, just...no. Newbies are specifically NOT in a position to understand why anti-town plays are sometimes pro-town and hence SEs are asked and ICs forced to be very careful with them. To claim that it's unreasonable for newbie-townies to not see you as OBVTOWN is in no way an ok argument to make, in your own words you do things typically seen as anti-town. Newbies are slaves to the wiki because they're looking for guidance, and it's ok to manipulate that as scum because that's how people learn, but it's not ok to claim that they should somehow know better.
But this all leads me to one conclusion: You're either a bad town SE or a good scum one.
Self voting in a newbie game as town, D1, without holding the towns hand through it and clearly articulating the reasons for it (without going mental at the IC) would be seen by any reasonable person as bad town SE. Importantly, this is REGARDLESS of whether you are town or whether your play is actually going to help town, you're setting a bad example.
Self voting in a newbie game as scum, well that makes sense.
Lets have a look at the circumstances of your self vote shall we:
Note that Red and LUV are in your scumlist, along with creature who isn't voting. So according to you there's 4 town voting (Avi, Sando, thenav, Inferno), and they're split evenly at 1 each on two town (you and Inferno) and two scum (Red and LUV).RadiantCowbells (3)Lil Uzi Vert , Aviqf , RedFlavor , L-2
Inferno390 (1)sando ,
RedFlavor (1)thenavneet ,
Lil Uzi Vert (1)Inferno390 ,
This situation is basically begging for an experienced player to step up, explain what's going on, how the train is being strongly scum-led etc. If Red+LUV is true then they've left themselves HORRIBLY exposed and that should be explained to town-newbies. Instead, you rage about how you're the most obviously pro-town ever and we're silly for not recognising that, despite there being a single, solitary, one person from town voting you. So basically you decided to self vote because a sole townie voted you...top job there SE. The current votes on you btw, according to your reads, are 2 scum and yourself...
You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: RadiantCowbells-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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I flat out cannot see how your play is a good example of town playIf you're town I think you find my playstyle so offensive that you're not honestly evaluating me.in the context of a newbie game.I don't find it personally offensive and I can see how in the context of other types of games what you've done would be seen as less scummy, although I wouldn't go so far as to say pro-town.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Lolwat? I came in, posted a wall of text against Inferno, and posted a couple of things about you I had issues with, and said you had "an excellent post", oh and said that I wasn't onboard with the Saul train. From that, you deduced that my vote was eventually going to come onto you? Anyone reading my post would reasonably assume I was dead-set on Inferno and I was seriously considering Sunlit. Oh here's my actual summation:RC wrote:And frankly you being there was a large part of it because I knew your vote was going to find its way onto me.
So you're not in my top 3 and I've just said I wanted more info and was giving you a pass on D1...but you self voted because you knew my vote was going to find its way onto you.Sando wrote:Sunlit and Avi are my strongest pings outside of Inferno. RC is a wildcard that I would like more information on (so yeah I'll give you a pass D1 after all lol), but I'm certainly not town-sold on.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Scumreading me? He hasn't that I can see? Do you mean reading Sheep, or scumreading you?if you're such a good little townie why aren't you worried about the fact that Redflavor has never given a reason for scumreading you?
Because you've gone after him for IC and threatened to report him to "PP" (I'm not sure who/what this is), and I think you're misinterpreting his words to be in the worst possible light. Yes, you could read it as saying that Inferno should ignore everything that you've done since entering, but that's the worst possible interpretation. You could also interpret it as saying that actions of player Saul was scummy and that there's nothing that you as his replacement can do to change the fact that those actions were scummy. I did not go into this because I'm not in the business of defending another player and giving them arguments, and I wanted LUV to answer that, thankfully he has now and we can read into that what we will.Same goes to LUV who hasn't given any sort of explanation for why I am scum.
I've said, to you, things that I didn't like about LUV. I said, in a response TO YOU, that I found his lackadaisical attitude towards a no-lynch was terrible advice. I also find him being inconsistent with:
andLUV wrote:I never have a problem with no lynching
(bold mine)LUV wrote:I was simply just reminding everyone that if a player feels they have a solid foundation for why they scum read someone’s predecessorsand we’re close to deadline, there is very little a replacement can do or say to change that.
But, ya know, he literally only just posted this and my defending him as earlier in this post would have enabled him to avoid posting this, so you're welcome, hope you learnt something from the old-schooler.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Because here's how I see the LUV vote on RC going down.
LUV votes Saul
RC swaps in
LUV says Inferno is well within his rights to maintain his suspicion on Saul with RC now being in the game
RC attacks LUV for said post
LUV ignores this to a large extent
LUV has never voted you, search Vote: RadientCowbells and you won't find a quote from LUV, he voted for Saul and left it on you. I do not think his reasoning is bad, and given he's been personally attacked I'm honestly not surprised he's not keen to engage with you.
Red strikes me as newbie-town flailing. The worst I can say is that he opportunistically jumped on your bandwagon, but I don't see the strong link to LUV that I think you're inferring? His attack on you about the claim-strat was odd, but honestly I have NFI what the claim from you meant there and given I'm the only person to have thought it deserved instant-lynch I'm clearly not in a position to make a read into his reaction, that's something I will defer to authority on, since I'm looking at that from my experience 5+ years ago.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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I literally confirmed my predecessors vote on Inferno with my first post... You then said that my reads were terrible...
So:
Sando agreed with Sheeps read on Inferno
RC says Sando is just flat out wrong and has terrible reads
RC says Sheep, who had the same read, was great at the current meta with his reads and Sando has terrible reads...despite them being roughly the same.
I mean...-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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You made the comment about his town-meta very, very early, #68. From there it wasn't until #536 that you say anything scum-related about Inferno (so yeah, my original post said 545, I missed this one liner in original read-through). Point stands, you went a long, long time with an incredibly strong meta read that based on Inferno's actions was just not reasonable. What about that is "reasonable progression"?This feels like misrepresentation or an effort to make reasonable progression look unreasonable.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Ok I read that as a very soft push at the time, but subsequent play says that that's your style, so I can buy that. I'm still not sure how we got into the mid 500s before you walked back from the meta read. As I said in my post, the read on you was purely on this one thread, but I stand by the idea that Inferno was meta-town based on Deco was not reasonable.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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It's coming from a place of RC started the case against LUV about how ICs are meant to act (that was moral superiority RC, not whatever you think I was doing), and as such if he wants to question the established norms of play, then his should be examined as well. RC is also using his experience position as an appeal to authority, and if he wants to do that then I'm going to point out where that is not helpful to newbie players, including myself.
Not sure where I said SEs were obligated to play a certain way?
hence SEs are asked and ICs forced to be very careful with them-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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I have no problem with SEs lying up a storm, but the context is what Inferno just said: RC has accused LUV of abusing the IC position. RCs 'abusing' the SE position is ONLY bad in my eyes because he went after LUV for it and is using that attack for a lynch target. That said:In post 940, Sunlit Diamond wrote:
LUV is IC. IC's HAVE to tell the truth about play. SEs just play the game and can lie up a cat-5 storm if they wish.In post 938, Inferno390 wrote:
Right, but SE's aren't supposed to be screwing with the newbies by giving them bad play advice. That's what RC thinks LUV is doing. Which I have to agree a little bit on.In post 935, Sunlit Diamond wrote:Observation after reading page 35-36: To my understanding, SEs have no obligation to do anything other than play the game. This entire argument is weird.
I've made it clear that I think he's scum and that his play makes perfect sense as a scum SE.You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sure Inferno:
Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.As I recall I've never been mislynched in a newbie before without the SEs going seriously off the rails so this game really is an outlier in terms of how little thought people are putting into itLess than 4% of the people who play on mafiascum.net should EVER be so confident in their reads that they would ignore a replacement's actions.AtE is a lot more common now than it was when you played, in no insignificant way because of yours truly.And you seem to think that I'm a bad example, but I'm also considered one of if not the best players who current play.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Now Inferno/RC, I've let you continue on with this whole "old style" stuff and how I think I'm better than you because of it. Could you please point me to where I've said anything of the sort? I've repeatedly said "this is confusing me because it's very different from when I last played", but I've deliberately NOT used it as a basis for scumhunting. Of RCs claim-strat, I've said it would have previously gotten him lynched, BUT that things are clearly different these days. The AtE isn't based on my history, it's based on this comment on 1769 from RCs wiki:
First scum game of my return. I believe I played badly, or at least I did at the time: but this was the start of me focusing onmore appealing to people on an emotional level than logical. Still think I played bad, but it worked.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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No.Inferno wrote:So will everyone please stop talking about my meta and how it makes me/others town/scum?
Firstly, I think since me and RC joining posts where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.
Secondly, Sunlit brought it up and defended it in what I at least thought was a fairly ridiculous manner. At that point you are simply evidence to be pointed to, and if that makes you uncomfortable, tough luck. It's not about you at that point, it's a line of questioning from me (and others potentially) directed at another player in an attempt to determine alignment. That's the game...deal with it. I'm not going to ignore a line of questioning and investigationjust because you feel your meta has changed, which was the entire point of my line of questioning in the first place!
Lastly, given you're currently insistent on referencing my "old-school" play constantly, and using it as a basis for accusing me of AtA...get over yourself. You're complaining about taking a 4 month break and people still referencing your previous play...you must understand how hypocritical that looks when the next breath (it was actually a breath or two before but still...):
Inferno wrote:Sando comes off as incredibly arrogant because he's an older player, despite the fact that he hasn't played for 5 years.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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I made a massive couple of content posts where every read was content driven, which I think is unquestionable? I mean I hadn't interacted with anyone, and the only person I said anything negative about in terms of playstyle was Sheep. Go re-read those if you don't believe me.RC wrote:Do you think everyone who thinks that your read progression is made up is scum or do you think that it's possible that your reads aren't actually borne out of content in thread as much as they are your own personal feelings about things, and that everyone else is picking up on the holes and saying yeah this doesn't make linear sense as a read?
You responded with:
So to me, I posted content reads, you completely ignored that, denigrated my reads based PURELY on the fact that they're not the same as yours. And now you're saying that my reads aren't borne out of content? Seriously?RC wrote:Sando, my entire scumpool is your townreads.
I would rather you vote me, get my flip, prove that whatever you're doing to scumhunting isn't working, then vote my scumreads tomorrow.
Luv is intentionally giving people terrible play advice as an IC which while disgusting is contributing to a gamestate where people are derptunneling rather than actually thinking or talking about their reads. This doesn't work.
Regardless of the fact that I'm town, no one should be treating today like it was a real day in a real game of mafia. Just kill the three people I said and you'll be set.
VOTE: RC
Not unvoting from here on out.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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My wall of text against you was ~475 words (including quotes), of that, here's where I used your meta to attack you:Inferno wrote:First off, you have used my meta to attack me, because you did it in your very first wall. So you've used it to attack me and then to attack Sunlit, both times highly objectionable.
But yeah, I'm the one misrepresenting here... It was an entire sentence, which was EXACTLY what I said in my last post that you're now responding to:Sando wrote: Overall there’s a clear pattern of anti-town actions in terms of claims etc, and there’s been some very consistent misrepresentations going on, mostly of Sheep but also of some others.As for the meta read, I’d agree with RC that this is a fairly wild divergence from the linked game.How Sunlit can think otherwise blows my mind at this point, but more on that later!
Literally one sentence Inferno, one...sentence.Sando wrote:Firstly, I think since me and RC joining posts where I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Townreading you mean? Or are you scumreading me?In post 969, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like I believe that you believe that your reads are borne out of content, if it helps? Or I wouldn't bescumreadingyou. But I think you have a chip on your shoulder and its screwing with your interactions with everyone.
I posted my read on Inferno based on content, you reply with simple "nah you're wrong", and now you think that instead of my read being content driven, it's somehow morphed into a chip on my shoulder read? Based on what?-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Wait are you referring to now or to back when I walled?In post 971, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like assuming that you're town? Put your self in my point of view as town. Is it not true that I should be immensely skeptical of your reads given that you scumread me?
And do you mean skeptical of my towniness or ability? Obviously a townie should be sceptical of ability when they're scumread, both theirs and the accuser. It's that scepticism that should prompt further investigation into the motivation behind it. You should attempt to come to he conclusion that either you've done something that is deserving of a scum-read to an extent and therefor your accuser is motivated out of scumhunting, or you conclude that nope, no way can your actions be read that way and the person is motivated out of something other than scumhunting.
You were at best (worst?) 4th on my list when I started, so no I do not believe it's reasonable to be "immensely skeptical of your reads given that you scumread me", in my opinion.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Seriously Inferno?
Like...simple English 101 says that I'm saying both me and RC used it in our posts to say yes your meta has changed, and SINCE THEN, no-one has said much about it at all in the context of attacking you with it.Firstly, I thinksince me and RC joining postswhere I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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In my vote for you post:In post 975, RadiantCowbells wrote:In the end it comes down to that you seem to feel that it's impossible that I am a good SE while doing the things that I've done. I can't argue with that.
You're not that bad a townie or SE, you're scum.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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If it helps, this has shown that Inferno is not scum to RC town. RC flipping town basically confirms Inferno town (the opposite is not true), since scum would have realised that and happily killed a townie that confirmed a scum as town by now. Scum had opportunity and motive, funnily enough they haven't done that...
Reads other than the obvious RC/Inferno combo:
I'm not sold on LUV-scum, but Red will look seriously bad on an RC town-flip (along with me, although I feel I've hunted to Reds follow).
Silent I'm town-lean with recent play, although RCs comment that Silent is going to die because he's the only person who can lead town to victory is odd, given I've seen no inclination from Silent to do anything of the sort (leading that is).
Creature I still have basically no read on other than liking some of his early posts and generally what suggestions he's had have been good in a teaching sense (first that I saw to bring up wagons and whether they're scumled or not).
Avi I still lean scum on.
thenav hasn't posted that I can see? Have to give some scum-cred for that at this point I feel.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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I mean Inferno just accused me of blatantly lying and I accused him of egregious misrep for that...feel free to weigh in on that.In post 983, Sunlit Diamond wrote:I think this entire argument is proving to be a *fantastic* distraction from actual scumhunting. It's also completely drowned out the voices of our quieter players.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sorry I've been calling you silent for a while now! I have NFI where that brainfade came from!
Yeah I'm not saying it's a flaw from you, nor scummy, just an observation that you don't seem to have a "leading" playstyle. RC made a comment about that, which I mis-remembered but not substantively imo, found it though:
Sunlit dies tonight if not protected I guarantee you because she's the only town player who can get some sort of cohesion going tomorrow so protection on her-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sigh...I'm asking a genuine question. Inferno has just accused me of lying in 973 and I've accused him of pretty egregious misrep in 978. Pretty much the definition of a content driven discussion that might help with scumhunt if people actually engaged?
I just posted my (changed) reads...but you know, ignore that all you want.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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The spin is exactly what I wrote, that since me and RC made single sentence comments about it, you haven't been attacked for it.Inferno wrote:So no matter how Sando spins it, I have been attacked with my meta, so his claim that I haven't been is just not true.
Just read that again, because you actually have to read the entire sentence, not just the last 6 words. I made zero, nada, nil, contradiction. I've pointed that out to you subsequently. You're flat out wrong and you continue to push this despite it being shown to you, repeatedly. Here's the original sentence:
This was pointed out to you in 978 that English 101 says you're wrong here. Now you're trying to walk it back without admitting this, saying that it wasn't a scum motivated slip by me. I didn't slip, I was factually correct.Sando wrote:Firstly, I thinksince me and RC joining postswhere I think each of us made a single sentence comment about it, no-one has actually used your meta as a basis for attacking you.
You're desperately trying to undermine anyone that ever attacks you, myself included. You've flailed at everyone who's ever even looked your way. You've been parroting RC who has blithely stated you're 100% town in said flailing and in 1001 is desperately trying to give you a pass on this utter bullshit that you're spouting here. You've now decided that trying to make me look scummy isn't going to work, so you're just going to try and undermine my character by saying I'm old-school arrogant and that I'm "straight out bad".
You're scum, with RC.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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He'd go well down my list if you did townflip yes. I do not feel the same about him flipping town towards you. The wagon mechanics make me feel you'd have been lynched well before now if it were scum-inf + town-RC.In post 1033, RadiantCowbells wrote:If he's scum with me then my being town makes him not scum, correct?
Just making sure we agree on that.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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RCstillkeen to defend Inferno and me as TvT after our latest interaction where he simple ignores my post and goes straight back to being factually incorrect?
I get that emotions can come into play, but c'mon. I posted very clearly in 978 why he's blatantly misrepresenting me, which he's ignored and doubled down on in 1028, while simultaneously walking back on his scum-read. Emotions can not excuse horrendous play forever.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Ask your opinion, get snide avoidance and AtA in response.In post 1046, RadiantCowbells wrote:Sandro you've chosen at every turn to believe that I'm scum lying as opposed to knowing things you don't know. And that's understandable.
But learn from what I've said.
Tops as.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Cool, I'm done for the day, RC is clearly just going to lash out at anyone that posts, especially me.
thenavneet, you have 3 reads, only one (RC) is a reasonable lynch target today (in his own words), with a deadline here I think we get this done.
Sunlit, you've fencesat for a very, very long time now, can we get some action today maybe?
Avi and Creatures inaction should most definitely be noted for future days.
We have 24 hours til deadline.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Well 2 SEs and a newbie-replacement are the ones not voting, ala making no moves to end the day and we can't really call it a newbie mistake. Do you think this is active miring by the players or purely passive miring by those not getting involved?In post 1062, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:*sigh*
This is why I felt we had gotten enough out of the day and was ready to end it before the 30-page mark.
Mulling things over is not bad thing necessarily but it can hurt the town if no one consolidates on a decision.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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You're either going all in on this misrep or you don't understand simple english. I never, ever, ever, said that no-one hadThere is no way you can spin this where what did not happen was that you said no one attacked me with my meta and then said this is where I attacked you with my meta.everattacked you with your meta, I said that no-one had attacked you SINCE mine and RC entry posts.
How is this not obvious to you?-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Sando Mafia Scum
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To my mind we get more info from RC flipping than LUV, regardless of result. RC flipping either way actually changes things one way or another regardless of alignment, I do not see the same from LUV, outside of RC/LUV themselves obviously.In post 1098, Sunlit Diamond wrote:I don't think we'll be getting an RC lynch today. Assuming we did, and assuming you flip green, I'm looking at the people who barely engaged with you at all, first.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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The context is responding to Sunlit about the info of lynches... I've only ever mentioned it in the context of deriving the information you yourself has requested me to derive, or here when Sunlit is already talking about the info from a lynch.In post 1108, RadiantCowbells wrote:
Pushing info lynches is a terrible decision and I'm not just saying that because it's me. If you're going to vote me, vote me because you think I'm more likely to flip town.In post 1107, Sando wrote:
To my mind we get more info from RC flipping than LUV, regardless of result. RC flipping either way actually changes things one way or another regardless of alignment, I do not see the same from LUV, outside of RC/LUV themselves obviously.In post 1098, Sunlit Diamond wrote:I don't think we'll be getting an RC lynch today. Assuming we did, and assuming you flip green, I'm looking at the people who barely engaged with you at all, first.
Yes info lynches are bad, but a) you suggested it to me originally so I'm not sure where your sudden change of heart is coming from, and b) it's in context here, which sunlit can deduce for himself without your help.
If you're directing the comment about not voting for info lynches to me, why? I'm clearly voting you because I think you're scum. If you're directing it to Sunlit, why? Does he need the help from you?-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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Do you think he's doing this out of being an ass or out of manipulative ends? To me it strikes me more and more as an attempt to manipulate me and others regarding our view of scum. He hasn't actually refuted most of the accusations against him or Inferno, merely called those accusations silly and informed me I'm stupid/arrogant/old-school etc, which Inferno has been happy to parrot. Every interaction with me has been directed at character rather than at actions, and any time I've actually tried to talk through content he's deflected back onto other things.Sunlit wrote:I haven't actually said that so far because frankly if you went after me like you went after Sando, I would replace out.
Look at my 1045 viewtopic.php?p=9894314#p9894314 where I'm actually trying to get him to defend his 1001 defence of Inferno in light of new evidence. Immediately deflects into attacking my character and ability.
In 1086 viewtopic.php?p=9894693#p9894693 where I start ratcheting up the pressure on Inferno, immediately deflects that with some weird question about political persuasion.
In 1107 viewtopic.php?p=9895012#p9895012 when I talk about what info I get between the two viable lynches, again doesn't actually argue my point, immediately goes for my character and ineptitude in even talking about it.
These are just in the last 3-4 pages, but go back and look at every post of mine and you'll see a very, very clear pattern here. I post a negative view of either RC or Inferno, I'll get an immediate response from RC that attacks me and my character, or my ability to play the game, often subsequently parroted by Inferno.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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So my thoughts on the speed lynch is that potentially good idea to just hammer LUV here, but that's potentially borne out of my misunderstanding of how nights go down. Basically my thought is that scum are currently in an awkward position where they presumably targeted one of the towniest people and got stopped by a doc or jailkeeper. This leaves scum in an awkward position. In my estimation there's only 1-2 really obvious town, so they can continue trying to target them and risk getting blocked again, or they can start looking at some of the less townie-looking folk, thus if they want a more guaranteed NK they have to eliminate a mislynch possibility for us as well. Much further discussion and 'clearances' is also helping scum target their NK tonight.
On RCs other 'suggestions' - I definitely agree with not counter-claiming LUV, under no circumstances should a real role person counter LUVs claim. It's not worth sacrificing your role to kill a scum when we can get that info later anyway.
I disagree with lynching LUV regardless of claim, although I will ignore his results. Again, we find this info out later, I don't see the problem with leaving him alive with that noose around his neck. We can't allow a scum-cop claim to force our lynch though. This is mostly my view from previous experience though so if disagree with this logic then I'm happy to listen.
I disagree with the claim-strat, mostly because we simply don't have the engagement necessary for it, my guess is maybe half the players actually do it and the rest flake, leaving us hanging in the wind.
Sunlit definitely looks bad from his actions late D1. RCs point that Sunlit had 14 days to help town and that Sunlit's complaint that RC didn't hold his horses is disingenuous is a very fair point.
Red certainly looks really bad as well for the flip flopping.-
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Sando Mafia Scum
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