GeorgeBailey's Mini Normal Review, October 2021

[Gypyx]

so alright ummm, first thoughts, that quite a lot of cops you got there actually all things considered, plus the vig on top of that, i agree that the problem is swing there lol

i think most of the time, you could expect something like the vig to shoot his 2 bullets, 1 fake guilty and 1 real guilty out of this setup, and if like we have 2 roles out of 4 that are belived as towny, pretty sure that makes this setup go in the townisded

maybe reduce the quantity of stuff running around? Not sure if i have any part that's bugging me individually, it's more of a whole

[Datisi]

hm. while i do like the idea of the setup, the neighbourizer that can guilty the traitor is bugging me more and more. i'll look over this today, probably get rid of it, and change the setup around while still keeping the main idea there.

[Datisi]

1x town combined friendly neighbour hider
1x town novice 2-shot vigilante
1x town n1 psychologist
1x town tracker
6x vt

1x mafia 2-shot jailkeeper traitor enabler
1x mafia traitor enabler
1x mafia traitor encryptor

this should be a little less... insane i guess?

[Gypyx]

seems pretty cool to me

[mastina]

A traitor who can only become mafia after both the other mafia dies is another thing that honestly feels like it goes against the spirit of the game--the town when they see a 'traitor enabler' flip will, presumably, be able to figure out that a traitor can become factional mafia...

...But they will be hunting for the traitor the moment one scum flips, thinking the traitor was recruited, because it's NOT reasonable to expect TWO traitor enablers imo.

So to me, while the setup might be okay balance-wise, Normalcy-wise, though it has the technical go-ahead from implosion on a traitor enabler, I'm not comfortable passing it because it feels like it's too much of a violation of what's expected to be Normal, even if it's

technically

allowed.

Sorry.

[Datisi]

that's not how enabler is defined, though? the sample role pm's from the enabler wiki page say:

"When you die, the role "Jailkeeper" will cease to function for all players."
"When you die, the role "Ascetic" will cease to function for all players."

according to this, the traitor will become a factional mafia when the first enabler dies, not when the last one dies.

[Gypyx]

oh yeah right, that's a double enabler situation too lol

[mastina]

according to this, the traitor will become a factional mafia when the first enabler dies, not when the last one dies.

I'm

fairly

certain that when there's multiple enablers for a role, the role is enabled until all enablers die.

It's rare because the interaction is incredibly infrequent (nobody puts two enablers for the same role in a game), but the last time I saw multiple enablers (in that case, multiple daytalk enablers), the enabled effect lasted until all died. (Granted, this was back in the day of the graylist, butstill.)

And from a logical stance, that makes sense. If there's more than one enabler for a role and one enabler dies, the other enabler is still enabling that role. It makes more sense for the role to be enabled until there's no way for it to be enabled.

The sample role PMs are written for a single enabler being in the game; they were not written to account for multiple enablers in a game (again, because basically nobody puts two enablers for the same role in a game). But I'm fairly certain that a role functions until

all

enablers for it die.

[implosion]

I think Datisi is right about how the role currently formally functions and that the issue is "enabler" is actually a misleading name. The phrasing of the normality section for enabler on the wiki implies this as well.

[Datisi]

while i understand that it makes logical sense that "as long as any enabler is alive, the role is functional", enabler simply isn't defined like that. i could even agree that that's how it was *intended* to function, and nobody thought to define it correctly because nobody thought someone would be sadistic enough to the nrg to put two enablers of the same role into the same game, but. yeah.

[Datisi]

maybe i'm wrong about how it was intended to function, my knowledge of the history of normal games isn't great, but you get my point.

[Gypyx]

well, to be fair, that also sounds like the logical stuff to me, for instance, you could say that milk and frosties are 2 enablers for you to make cereals, and if one goes, well those milk-only cereals are gonna taste bad

bad analogy ik

[Datisi]

while we wait for mastina, i'm not sure if gunsmith > psychologist is a change that i want, since the "here's a clear... oh shit there's a traitor in the game, nvm on the clear" interaction can't really play out then. so, my attempt to shove a gunsmith back into the setup is:

1x town combined friendly neighbour hider
1x town novice 2-shot vigilante
1x town n1 gunsmith
1x town combined tracker bodyguard
6x vt

1x mafia 2-shot jailkeeper traitor enabler
1x mafia 1-shot strongman traitor enabler
1x mafia bulletproof traitor encryptor

a town combined tracker bodyguard is such a troll role. heh.

this setup feels a bit townsided, since fn + vig + gunsmith is getting close to too many clears potentially, and we'd need figure out the interactions between strongman/hider, bodyguard/bulletproof, bodyguard/strongman (since off the top of my head, i can't say i know for sure how they interact), but. i kinda like it, so if it's too much in some direction, i'd want to try to figure it out from here.

first thought is to remove the two-shot from the mafia jailkeeper, or to make it multitasking, or both.

[Gypyx]

Traitor shows as innocent to psychologist though?

actually that's a good question, i don't think the enabler is taken into effect right

[Gypyx]

also, are you really attached to the combined tracker bodyguard ?

[Datisi]

Traitor shows as innocent to psychologist though?

actually that's a good question, i don't think the enabler is taken into effect right

he does, but a clear from a psychologist is a much softer clear than from a gunsmith. you generally wouldn't consider a person hardtown if you got a n1 psych clear on them

also, are you really attached to the combined tracker bodyguard ?

yes, but i could maybe make it work without it, idk

[Gypyx]

fair then

not sure how the setup feels for balance yet (didn't think too hard about it) but mafia strongmaning their bulletproof seems like a pretty shit interaction possible tbh

[Datisi]

counterpoint: it's hilarious

also traitor should like, crumb traitor and stuff. if the mafia is so dysfunctional that they not only shoot their own traitor, but strongman him... how is that my fault?

[mastina]

Balance-wise I would indeed say the setup is townsided because the town roles are all actually incredibly strong here especially into the scumteam--the scum DO have answers, but on that note, I'd just like to say:

Fun-wise, the setup is basically guaranteed to be a zero-fun game. Regardless of town doing well vs. poorly or scum doing well vs. poorly, I don't see the game generated from that setup being any fun to any alignment. If the scum can't negate the town PRs then they're going to be left feeling pretty shitty but if the scum DO negate the town PRs then the town is going to feel pretty shitty and even in those scenarios, there's a fairly good chance that the alignment who got the advantage still isn't really having fun.

The roles all

function

, so individually, there's no issue with them. But the sum of the parts creates a setup that just feels like the only person having fun would be the mod.

Again, not mandatory for balance, so the unfun setup

could

be passed--but even on the balance threshold, I'm inclined to think townsided overall. Not to mention, swingy as fuck.

[Datisi]

one day, someone will recognize my artistic genius /s

1x town novice 2-shot vigilante
1x town indecisive doctor
1x town announcing rolecop
1x town n1 psychologist n2 detective
6x vt

1x mafia 2-shot gunsmith
1x mafia goon
1x mafia encryptor

how about something like this? i wanted to play up the town vig / town gunsmith / mafia doctor dynamic.

[mastina]

That setup's definitely not townsided, I'll say that much. It

might

be potentially ever so

slightly

scumsided, but I don't think it's by an obscenely large amount if so. (The gunsmith can find the town PRs really well and is a good safeclaim, but the town roles are decently strong without being overwhelmingly strong, keeping swing fairly low.)

I'd say it's either balanced or within 2.5% of the balance. (As in, either 50-50 or 47.5-52.5, which is still passable range.)

[Datisi]

after posting the setup, i started thinking it was townsided, but alright. if gypyx doesn't have any problems with the setup, i'll write up role pm's and results later today.

[Datisi]

Spoiler: role pm's

vanilla townie

welcome,

playername

! you are a

vanilla townie

.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town novice 2-shot vigilante

welcome,

playername

! you are a

town novice 2-shot vigilante

.

role abilities:

~ twice in the game, at night, you may attempt to kill another player. you cannot use this ability on night 1.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town indecisive doctor

welcome,

playername

! you are a

town indecisive doctor

.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, that player will be protected from one kill that night. you cannot target the same player two nights in a row.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town announcing rolecop

welcome,

playername

! you are a

town announcing rolecop

.

role abilities:

~ each night, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn that player's role (but not their alignment). assuming your ability is successful, your target will learn that they were targeted by a rolecop.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

town night 1 psychologist night 2 detective

welcome,

playername

! you are a

town night 1 psychologist night 2 detective

.

role abilities:

~ on night 1, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will discern whether that player has an ability to kill. however, if that player has already killed, you won't be able to discern whether they're capable of killing. you will receive a "negative result" on players that are unable to actively kill another player, or on a player that has already killed, or a "positive result" on players that can choose to kill, but have not done so. you will receive "no result" if your action is blocked. this ability resolves after killing actions submitted for the same night.
~ on night 2, you may target a player. assuming no interference with your action, you will discern whether that player has performed a killing action on another player this game. you will receive a "negative result" on those that have not done so, or a "positive result" on those that have done so. you will receive "no result" if your action is blocked. this ability resolves after killing actions submitted for the same night.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to town and at least one town player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

mafia 2-shot gunsmith

welcome,

playername

! you are a

mafia 2-shot gunsmith

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

, who is a

mafia goon

, and

playername

, who is a

mafia encryptor

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ every night, you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may also talk there during the day as long as an encryptor is present in the pt.

role abilities:

~ twice in the game, at night, you may target another player. assuming no interference with your action, you will learn whether or not that player has a gun.
~ roles that have a gun are: all mafia (except traitors and doctors), cops, vigilantes, gunsmiths, rolecops, vanilla cops, pt cops, vengefuls, detectives, neapolitans, backups of roles with guns and joats that have any of these listed powers.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

mafia goon

welcome,

playername

! you are a

mafia goon

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

, who is a

mafia 2-shot gunsmith

, and

playername

, who is a

mafia encryptor

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ every night, you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may also talk there during the day as long as an encryptor is present in the pt.

role abilities:

~ you have no special abilities.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

mafia encryptor

welcome,

playername

! you are a

mafia encryptor

.

factional abilities:

~ you are a member of the mafia, along with

playername

, who is a

mafia 2-shot gunsmith

, and

playername

, who is a

mafia goon

.
~ once every night, a living member of the mafia may submit a factional kill action.
~ every night, you may talk with your living teammates in the mafia private topic, located here. you may also talk there during the day as long as an encryptor is present in the pt.

role abilities:

~ you, and anyone else present, may talk in private topics containing you even during the day.

win condition:

~ you win when there are no longer any threats to the mafia (or nothing can prevent this from occurring) and at least one mafia player is alive.

the game thread is here. please confirm your role by replying to this pm with your role name.

Spoiler: result pm's

rolecop:
~ your target is

vanilla

.
~ your target is a

novice 2-shot vigilante

.
~ your target is an

indecisive doctor

.
~ your target is a

night 1 psychologist night 2 vigilante

.
~ your target is a

2-shot gunsmith

.
~ your target is an

encryptor

.

psychologist:
~ you receive a

negative result

: your target is unable to actively kill another player, or has already killed.
~ you receive a

positive result

: your target can choose to kill, but has not done so.

detective:
~ "you receive a

positive result

: they have actively killed another player, or attempted to kill another player but failed."
~ "you receive a

negative result

: they have never attempted to kill another player."

gunsmith:
~ your target

has a gun

.
~ your target

does not have a gun

.

apologies in advance to whoever rands n1 psychologist n2 detective, that role pm is a hot mess.

just to make sure, since the psychologist's wiki page doesn't make it explicit like the detective's does - if a psych scans a player who attempted to kill someone, but the kill failed, psych still gets a negative, right?

[Gypyx]

Same as detective i assume

also yeah, that sound decent, rolecop sounds maybe a bit strong but it depends on how town interpetes it

[Datisi]

bleh, i forgot the "you were targeted by a rolecop during the night." for the rolecop's targets. anyway.