Team Mafia 2018: Mafiosi Revolution (Over)

[Kmd4390]

Insert a complaint about 17 pages popping up while I sleep here.

Mathdino wanted me to tell mulch and firebringer to shut the fuck up or get tunneled for the rest of the game. He says team mafia is supposed to be town sided because so many people are able to scum hunt but a spam fest stops some people from doing so.

I'll get caught up before I go to bed tonight. Haven't read a thing yet.

[Kmd4390]

Starting to read. Won't finish this sitting

I think Team Mafia needs stricter participation requirements

First good post of the game.

Kmd I am ignoring for the reasons he knows of

I don't even have a guess.

__________

Ugh. Page 5 gives me town reads on mulch, firebringer, and tor. I wanted to vote mulch on policy but won't if I'm townreading him.

__________

Transcend, you said on page 6 you'd vote Chara. Do you disagree with to who said Chara would never choose to be scum? Also why is mulch scum?

__________

Patrick, Kagami, Kmd4390 and Cheetory6 are strangers to me and haven't spoken yet.

We just played together in Boon's game. I was on my Egg account. My gut was originally telling me you are scum again but I think if your team rolled scum here, boon or tchill would have taken it before you.

________

I'm through 9 pages.

[Kmd4390]

Insert a complaint about 17 pages popping up while I sleep here.

Mathdino wanted me to tell mulch and firebringer to shut the fuck up or get tunneled for the rest of the game. He says team mafia is supposed to be town sided because so many people are able to scum hunt but a spam fest stops some people from doing so.

I'll get caught up before I go to bed tonight. Haven't read a thing yet.

You can tell him to fuck off

Mafia is first and foremost a game meant to be enjoyed.

Fuck of with that attitude
And if you want to tunnel me for spamming
I’ll tunnel right back

It's better when everyone can enjoy it, not just you and mulch. This post is from me, not Mathdino.

[Kmd4390]

Whoa KMD is egg

Shocked!

Dude I was like positive you already knew that.

[Kmd4390]

He said he has a scum-Discord with mulch. OBVIOUSLY.

I think you should try to keep up with my scumhunting Trans..

Ugh. Stop being scummy if you are town. He was obviously playing along with mulch's Mason fakeclaim.

________

Cheet, I don't disagree with anything in your unabomb case. But would he really get a scum slot over boon and tchill? Or is it possible they got three?

Hey uh Cheet not to be that guy But he has offered his reads and i Like where his head is at.

Really? Because I see two actual reads if you count "might be town" and a bunch of stuff that amounts to "I really have no idea lol". I can't figure out why you're so quick to townreading unabomb here. Can you help me out with that? Also, why aren't you obvtown yet?

I think it is clear to anyone who has seen me play, that I was given a townslot in a game like this.
Like, I understand the possibility of WIFOM and all that, but my team wouldn't trust me with anything significant when potentially playing against people who "know me" - like you, RC or mulch.
And then we have all the fantastic scumhunters who just know I'm a nubscrub who is always drenched in paranoia and bad gutreads so..
No scumroles for me!

It's because I'm bad at town -> I get scumread, I'm OK as scum -> I get townread.

Oh boy.

___________

Ugh. Transcend, your reads are so far off from mine.

__________

Through page 14.

[Kmd4390]

Because he voted you?

[Kmd4390]

Because he voted you?

No, because he voted me for a horrible reason that he knows better not to do- and same with Eddie. And has been tunneling me when he knows I blow up when tunneled as town. And has been reaffirming his scumread with a shit case and "reaction test" and has been pedantic and nitpicky.

Noted.

[Kmd4390]

Guys I'm confused. Mathdino disagrees with like all of my reads and I expected us to be on the same page coming in to this. He says my issues with unabomb can be chalked up to language issues with English (which I actually didn't know) and thinks mulch is scum. I really wanted to vote unabomb but I really don't know. Maybe mulch is ok on a commination of policy and hoping that people who have played with him know him better than I do.

Also I just read page 15 and have nothing new to add.

[Kmd4390]

Guys I'm confused. Mathdino disagrees with like all of my reads and I expected us to be on the same page coming in to this. He says my issues with unabomb can be chalked up to language issues with English (which I actually didn't know) and thinks mulch is scum. I really wanted to vote unabomb but I really don't know. Maybe mulch is ok on a commination of policy and hoping that people who have played with him know him better than I do.

Also I just read page 15 and have nothing new to add.

Mathdino has never played with me and everyone that's played with me before sans Transcend is not scumreading me (Una, Gingie, Toranaga) me so I'm very confused at this and I think it's slightly scummy

but it's possible it could be a miscommunication *shrug*

Figured most people had. You have a few votes. Transcend said 80% of his team scum reads you. Now Mathdino. If they all haven't played with you, I stand corrected.

[Kmd4390]

Was waiting for an answer from him. He says he likes a Lynch on you to improve gamestate, thinks your pushes feel more political than like scum hunting, and agrees with trascend's reaction test and trusts Transcend to read you. Obviously, he's also townreading transcend.

[Kmd4390]

I'm also supposed to tell spiff from Mathdino to fuck off because our team is arguing behind the scenes about reads and it's perfectly fine to present different arguments just like a Hydra would. He must have read something I haven't yet.

[Kmd4390]

Guys I'm confused. Mathdino disagrees with like all of my reads and I expected us to be on the same page coming in to this. He says my issues with unabomb can be chalked up to language issues with English (which I actually didn't know) and thinks mulch is scum. I really wanted to vote unabomb but I really don't know. Maybe mulch is ok on a commination of policy and hoping that people who have played with him know him better than I do.

This is very "look at me trying to think critically about the game and consulting my teammates about it"

I don't think this is something a town player actually brings up in the thread

Oh, this. Yeah I mentioned it because I trust mathdinos scumhunting ability and it makes me question which of us is completely off here. It made me hesitant to vote where I want to. What else would I do? Because the other options are say "fuck my team, this is my game" or go against my own reads and not tell you why. Neither sounds very productive now does it?

[Kmd4390]

@KMD I'm not bothered by teammates wanting to contribute and having specific things to say about certain people

I'm bothered by how you're making a show about your inner struggle when I'd expect a town player to discuss the differing opinions with their teammates in their team PT rather than say "omg I'm confused and don't know what to do" in the game thread for everyone to see

To me it reads like you're showing off how critically you're thinking about the game and addressing the fact that you disagree with a teammate in a way similar to hydra dissonance coming from scum

It wasn't really a show. It was just a quick few paragraphs about where I'm at. And we have discussed it some in the PT. Why is it "showing off how critically I'm thinking" rather than actually critically thinking?

[Kmd4390]

i think im going to mark kagami as green

VOTE: Mulch

VOTE: Transcend

VOTE: Ginngie

Spiffy is still a scum mouse

Holy shit dudes. Cabd is scum.

Why? (To all of you). Ginngie has kind of answered since but I still want to know where the initial vote came from, if anywhere.

@Cheet: Seems unlikely to me that Una made up that he believed he had missed a lot of game-time, whereas I think he'd be more alert to the gamestate as scum.

I'm kind of upset that this is resonating with me.

I don't get it. Why would he have thought he missed it as town but not as scum?

it's like

una, trans

and someone i dont care about

That's kind of my thought right now.

well until i'm fully convinced he can be town i'm pretty much just locked in my tunnel here dude

Why does scum-mulch pull the whole mason thing just to come out and say Tor is town regardless of his own alignment? How does that help him?

I think Trans is a bad lynch today. I think mulch is a bad lynch today. (considering I have been here watching it unravel throughout the workday)
So far I have no solid reason for scumreading either of Firebringer/Ginngie. (although I'm sure Ginngie will provide something for me to scumread, and there's still no way to lynch her)
Cheetory is pinging me, not yet sure why. I'm liking his effort though, so prob. not a good lynch-candidate.
Toranaga is null for me, hard to get a grasp on.
Spiffeh puzzles me. Maybe it's because I'm a nub, but I thought he would bring the fire from post #1 onwards. But I guess he will either show his work, be it scum or town, whenever he has time to post more.

Does no one see that this is just a bunch of filler?

I just want the two of them off each other, because I believe in a thing where it might be bad for town if we all just spam the thread - no matter how "good" our content is, or how right we think we are.
We might feel like we are "gamesolving" and see others making "mistakes" and whatnot, but in truth we might just end up giving the actual scum room to sit in silence -> sheep -> sit in silence -> sheep...
And town make bad posts too, just read my ISO.

I do actually like this tbh.

you'll see my mulch progression in future pages

k, got it.

_____________

I kind of see where firebringer is coming from on cheet and his answer about trying harder makes sense too. The last time I saw him try this hard, we were scum together but even that was a different kind of trying if that makes sense. It's probably just the fact that it's team mafia and we all have more people relying on us. I've town read cheet's content so far for what that's worth.

_______________

It's town keely

Who? And any reasoning behind those reads?

Why is Transcend and his bullshit reaction test scummy and what pushes of mine are political because I haven't even fucking pushed anyone yet

When I know, you'll know.

_______________

Patrick, I'm direct when I'm confident. This is already feeling like last team mafia though where so much is going on I get lost and lose confidence. Cheet was on my team last time and should be able to verify how bad I played. I was town and couldn't solidify reads worth shit. I actually think I'm doing better this time around if anything.

This seems a bit feigned in it's aggressiveness

Probably because it's coming from someone other than me so when I posted it rather than Mathdino, it lacks the emotion that was behind the original message. Basically, I get the feeling you wouldn't feel that way had Mathdino posted it rather than myself.

___________

Holy shit, that's it? I'm caught up? Cool.

[Kmd4390]

Mulch, it's your Transcend push that Mathdino doesn't like. He says Transcend's test on you was something he obviously believes. And then there's some stuff about how it seems like something momo would do which I don't really get because I've never played with momo. Also, if he was trying to get you to react badly, why would he back off and vote tor?

This is something he has explicitly stated he just does sometimes.

I have?

Uhh...

.... as a town strategy?

So why are you trying to pin it on me as if it's not towny?


Regardless of the fact that I did it this game because I was pretty sure Toranaga took town so it's not exactly random

but still

Uhhhhh. Yeah. If anything, Mulch looks townier from this.

I mean.

The benefit of doing it as scum is pretty damn apparent from the argument that you make in that thread. You "confirm yourself as town."

I personally think it's meaningless in terms of reading into your alignment, whereas it could potentially be very useful for reading into the alignment of someone without the same meta of having done it before.

When he did it, it said more about tora than about himself though. That's what made me town read Mulch as a result. Why go through that much effort to make someone else obvtown if he was scum?

[Kmd4390]

Mastina is pretty awesome at mafia.

[Kmd4390]

Why are we wagoning cabd anyway?

[Kmd4390]

We were policy lynching CABD today anyway, but on the plus side they are actually scummy

Scummy how? Anyone on the wagon can answer this.

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, North feels you are fluffing too much so I ISOd you and can find a total of five reads and zero legit reasons. Can you back up the reads you've posted and give a few more?

Mulch, I can see shallow but given the way the game is going I also understand that. Where do you see him being pockety? And why is shallow scummy?

Tora, why is it fake?

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, North feels you are fluffing too much so I ISOd you and can find a total of five reads and zero legit reasons. Can you back up the reads you've posted and give a few more?

what's your experience with Fire?

I've seen him in the "stop getting banned" thread.

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, North feels you are fluffing too much so I ISOd you and can find a total of five reads and zero legit reasons. Can you back up the reads you've posted and give a few more?

what's your experience with Fire?

I've seen him in the "stop getting banned" thread.

Oh wait he was in Nancy's game too.

[Kmd4390]

Tora, why is it fake?

it doesn't work as a reason to townread him, don't you think? mulch is a huge asshole as scum anyway.

I wouldn't know. Sounded like cabds perception on mulch's meta which I'm not familiar with.

Mulch, you really think cabd was trying to pocket you by calling you an asshole? Think about that for a second.

[Kmd4390]

Awkward

But the questions were mine so can you answer them?

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer

Awkward

But the questions were mine so can you answer them?

[Kmd4390]

Mulch, you really think cabd was trying to pocket you by calling you an asshole? Think about that for a second.

Well not that part but the part about locking me as town lol

*Sigh*

[Kmd4390]

What was your question

[Kmd4390]

You're really holding up answering a question in a mafia game for non mafia reasons?

[Kmd4390]

Ok I was hoping that was some kind of inside joke. Doesn't seem to be. Not my place to comment further.

But can you answer my questions?

[Kmd4390]

Vote firebringer

[Kmd4390]

For someone who asks to explain reads.
That vote isn’t accompanied by explanation

What’s going on in ur head kmd?

Don't worry too much about it. I'll take it off if I'm satisfied with your answer. I just get the feeling you are avoiding me so I want some extra weight behind it.

Preview edit: ok

[Kmd4390]

Implosion feels pretty town rn

Really? Why?

[Kmd4390]

Implosion feels pretty town rn

Really? Why?

748 and 792 are towny

Can you be more specific? Especially on the second one because that's likely something his team discussed pre-game. I'm willing to be at least half of the teams talked about who each team would give scum roles to.

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, I was counting mulch, Tora, spiff, cheet, and cabd I think. Or maybe transcend was one of them. Either way I counted five. That post was exactly what I was looking for though.

Unvote, Vote unabomb

My team might end up not liking this but he's my strongest scum read and no one has convinced me I'm wrong.

Tora, I'm townreading you but yeah that was bad logic on cabd.

[Kmd4390]

Why people townreading implosion?

he wrote sensible things

I'm lynching cabd here everytime fwiw

Why is unabomb town?

[Kmd4390]

crazy... but i became hardtown when i wasn't voting you

hmmm i wonder if that's a genuine thought process from a player with a green role pm at all..

hmmmm

Transcend trying to pretend town isn't biased or inconsistent is telling.
it's textbook contradiction = scum logic employed by scum, i don't believe it's a real read coming from Transcend either.

I use this logic as both alignments

so you use bad tools as both alignments? interesting.
but in all seriousness. :> can you quote a towngame where you did this? specifically by attacking inconsistency in a logical way.

I'm actually more concerned that he went straight to "this doesn't make me scum" rather than reconsidering his own logic.

I still need to read pages 37 and 38 by the way. Much better than what I expected to wake up to

[Kmd4390]

Implosion, "underwhelming" is a good word for Kagami. I'm not sure what to think. I played one game with Kagami, who was able to obvtown as scum and fool everyone but Titus. I have no idea how to sort a few players and Kagami is one of them. Chara and cabd are the other big ones. If anyone has thoughts on those players, I'd love to hear them. I asked about cabd already but the answers didn't do much for me.

. But it's not really accurate to say that I'm scumreading anyone right now. I'm pretty reluctant these days to actually scumread anyone early d1 unless something sort of falls into place, which it does sometimes but not always. I mostly just accumulate townreads.

This reads like wanting to avoid drawing attention and stepping on toes.

Ugh. Stop trying to force "scummyness" into my posts. I was VERY OBVIOUSLY JOKING. If you missed that, you didn't read most of those pages after all.

My mistake. Didn't read that as a joke the first time. Now after you point it out, that makes sense. Why are you townreading Chara?

Why say that your teammates disagree with you? What is the town-motivation behind it?

It's been covered. I was hesitant to vote you because I respect mathdinos abilities so I said that. Why hide it? Your OMGUS is showing with your comments at both cheer and myself and then your vote.

My current top-candidates for a lynch today are Aristophanes and Kmd4390.

Aris? Why?

[Kmd4390]

Ok but why have two shitwagons popped up instead of boosting up cabds

I don't think anyone has posted a good reason for cabd to be scum. Did I miss that? Like policy lynching him makes no sense. His reach out to Kagami was fine. I just don't see anything that screams scum.

[Kmd4390]

Your OMGUS is showing with your comments at both cheer and myself and then your vote.

I would never think "you suck" about players who are more experienced and sound players than I might ever be.

My comments towards you and "cheer" (cheetory?) are based solely on your posts/actions in the game.
I do not think you suck, I think your actions might have scummy motivations.

Yeah that was cheet. Auto correct sucks. But yeah Mathdino says OMGUS is something town-you does and it seems like your reads are based entirely on that despite what you say. I'll reluctantly:

Unvote, Vote Transcend

He wants me to vote mulch but that would be purely policy for me and I don't at all love that idea.

From Mathdino, paraphrased:
Una
- Drop your Aris scum read. He would never pick a scum role. However, you pushing this does show that you are town.
-team mafia is town sided. Mulch's play takes away from that because people not in the game won't bother to keep up. Saying town loses if we mislynch mulch is BS. What are your thoughts on mulch vs transcend?
- you're probably right about scum hiding in the chaos. Lynch either a spammer or a lurker.
-youre being scum read for being awkward and uncharismatic and not seeming to care who the Lynch is.
-this slot is backed by our reads and meta knowledge and you'll be able to tell if it's a scum slot by our accuracy.

[Kmd4390]

I'm gonna bite my tongue this time. The one thing I will say though is that I'm taking things from partners at face value in the sense that I believe they actually said it (not necessarily that it's from town obviously) because lying about it seems like such an unnecessary risk. All it takes is one person knowing your teammate better than you do and saying "wait they wouldn't say that" and you're fucked. I'm telling you guys whatever my team wants me to and I assume you are all pretty much doing the same. I doubt anyone is just making shit up. The only exception I could see is unexplained reads lists.

Preview edit: the part about OMGUS being town you was Mathdino. The part about your reads looking like OMGUS was me. Sorry I definitely it'll could have been more clear there.

[Kmd4390]

Myteammates have no interest in reading this game, which is part of what makes Mulch a great lynch outside of some really good reason to think he's town, which has yet to be provided.

So you disagreed with me about scum mulch having no reason to try to confirm Tora regardless of his own flip? Can I ask why?

I have a very bad feeling I'm being set up as the "told you so cred" read for a possible scum-KMD

Really? Then I have two questions for you:
1) what makes you think that?
2) what do you think my read on you is?

Anyone else get the feeling I’m going to get mislynched in lylo?

Nope. I don't expect you to make it to LYLO.

[Kmd4390]

No. Lynch or vig probably.

[Kmd4390]

Why does scum-mulch pull the whole mason thing just to come out and say Tor is town regardless of his own alignment? How does that help him?

Because he knows he could never maintain the illusion of being a mason forever? It seems like it was just a big show of championing tora as town, who from the sounds of it, was destined to be townread by meta anyway.

Well the first part of that goes without saying. Focusing on the second part though, meh. I'm not personally convinced that Tora is someone who is obvtown in every town game but I guess it might be possible you could honestly believe that? Maybe?

[Kmd4390]

Meh

Vote Kagami

[Kmd4390]

Kagami, i don't feel like you are even trying to understand where I'm coming from to be honest.

[Kmd4390]

It's true that I'm entirely unsure where you're coming from.

My posts on the subject have been as clear as I can get.

[Kmd4390]

It's true that I'm entirely unsure where you're coming from.

My posts on the subject have been as clear as I can get.

Walk me through it again, specifically the part where scum-mulch has already claimed a masonry with Toranaga, and then you believe he likely exits it in a fashion other than the way he did.

It was a "claim" that was obviously never going to stick unless they are either actually masons or scum together in which case why claim so early? So what is he even trying to accomplish as scum? He's either joking or genuinely reaction testing. With that in mind, when Tora reacted, Mulch told us Tora is town regardless of his own alignment. If Mulch is town, he says it proves his reaction test is genuine and Tora is town. If Mulch flips scum, he says Tora is still town. This serves no purpose for Mulch as scum unless again they are BOTH scum. I did town read Tora's reaction, so that makes that unlikely for me. So yeah, the whole thing does NOTHING for scum-Mulch but for town-Mulch it helped him read Tora and in his mind prove Tora's alignment to the rest of us as well.

[Kmd4390]

So you meant "I don't think scum-mulch claims masons with town-tora?"

I don't think Mulch as scum makes such a big show of how town Tora is.

Kmd, the exit is scum-indicative if anything, since town-mulch is reasonably likely to come to a different conclusion from the "reaction test."

The exit means nothing. Like I said, the claim was never sticking unless they were actually masons or scum together and in either of those cases they don't claim in RVS. The exit was inevitable.

If you believe the entry makes him town, then thats one thing, but that's not at all what you said.

Nope. It meant nothing to me when he first claimed. My instinct was just to wait and see what Tora says.

Basically, free towncred; I can easily see scum-mulch doing this to town-Toranga if he assumes that toranga is going to be townread either way, especially since mulch may have thought of it during pregame/may have been thinking about it before then when he saw he was getting scum role PM. Basically I just don't think there's any negative utility to doing it as scum if he was under the assumption that toranga was going to be obvtown, and there is simple positive utility in it giving him potential towncred/him later being able to say "look at me, i broke my scum meta!"

I sort of agree that it's somewhat unlikely to come from scum mulch who thinks he might have been able to get away with a mislynch on toranga.

I dunno. The way he went into it being regardless of how he flips and don't worry about his own alignment because Tora is confirmed town regardless doesn't make me think he was after any town cred. It seems like if he'd been lynched he'd go "oh well at least I confirmed Tora as town".

I feel alot better about implosion and Unabomba. I'm unsure if I'm just seeing ghosts on KMD because he's posted alot of stuff relevant to the game and talked about a good number of people, but I get an empty feeling from the apparent internal turmoil in his team about reads in this game, whereas I feel like I often townread that kind of thing. No clue on Cabd, and Kagami seems entirely unimpressive so far. Probably worth a read of 4:8 Nightless, but that'll have to be for another day. I'd like to hear from Aris, but comments from Cheet/implosion suggest to me that slot is not worth focussing on now.

I mean I wouldn't call it turmoil. Mathdino and I actually sync pretty well together from the little bit of recent experience I have with him. It's just we got opposite impressions on this game when we read it. He has more experience with unabomb than I do so maybe I need to default to him on that read. I think we still disagree on Transcend but we haven't talked much about him. We just disagreed on some reads. It's bound to happen from time to time. I'd be pretty shocked if anyone could honestly tell me that across five games their teams agree on every read. The difference is probably that Mathdino is more vocal and assertive than most people. Which is fine. It just came off wrong I think.

[Kmd4390]

Oh we're back to this again? Shit I was starting to enjoy this game.

[Kmd4390]

Cheet what do you mean by wooden?

[Kmd4390]

unvote vote transcend

I see my Kagami vote went nowhere...

[Kmd4390]

I mean.

That sounds exactly like me in about 2010.

I found that post very relatable.

[Kmd4390]

So you joined team mafia, knowing there would be five games going on at once.
Decided you only had time for a bit so you would policy lynch someone who posts too much

I doubt it

Team Mafia is an exciting event. It's bound to draw people that probably shouldn't play or at least normally wouldn't. I personally feel overwhelmed if I'm ever in three games at a time. I'm sure a lot of people are in similar situations.

I like that you're finally pushing something, but this probably isn't a good push.

[Kmd4390]

So you joined team mafia, knowing there would be five games going on at once.
Decided you only had time for a bit so you would policy lynch someone who posts too much

I doubt it

Team Mafia is an exciting event. It's bound to draw people that probably shouldn't play or at least normally wouldn't. I personally feel overwhelmed if I'm ever in three games at a time. I'm sure a lot of people are in similar situations.

I like that you're finally pushing something, but this probably isn't a good push.

Even if she wasn’t planning to follow all games.
This is one game.

Count it.

One.

This isn’t even insane as far as activity.
Ginngie has played in more active games than this.

And ginngie thought Team Mafia would go at slower pace or something?

I think it's insane. Especially the first 24 hours.

[Kmd4390]

Guys, my activity is going to drop until Friday. I feel like my entire life the last two days has been team mafia and I can't dedicate that kind of time. I have RL plans the next two days. And I'm going to bed now. I'll check in if I can but otherwise, see you all Friday.

[Kmd4390]

Transcend, not sure if North is following this game enough to have a read on you. The only opinion I have from her so far is that firebringer was fluffing too much. I'll ask though.

In compensation, I'll ask the teammate of your choice for a read on you if you desire.

I think you're actually the only one with multiple games with me. Go ahead and ask skirt skirt though. He impressed me when I played with him.

Kmd, do you mind fleshing out the mulch townread?

Didn't I JUST do this for you AFTER saying I've been as clear as I possibly can?

why does town-mulch claim mason with her?

Probably to show the rest of us that Tora is town because it means more than saying "guys trust my read".

[Kmd4390]

Transcend, yeah this is actually the only game North isn't following. Even Mathdino just said this game is insane to try to read because of mulch so he hasn't even tried to read you since your reaction test.

[Kmd4390]

I don't know what clarity you're imagining, kmd, but the statement made in 630 and the clarification in 1034 are contradictory and completely detached from the actual circumstances surrounding the claim.

Actually that's just me saying the exact same thing twice. I just went into more detail the second time.

[Kmd4390]

Thisis "why does scum-mulch pull the mason thing

Cool we found the part you misunderstood. He acknowledged that he did that as scum once so I do believe he'd at least so that as scum. It's the part where he tries to tell us Tora is confirmed town that I'm townreading. That's very different from scum stating a town read on town. Especially when he goes into the part about it being regardless of his own flip. He's not looking for a Tora death and town cred for the flip.

[Kmd4390]

Mathdino says the following on transcend by the way:
-the way transcend says fuck meta is town as fuck
-hes right about unabomb.
-team input seems genuine especially 897. Likes progression from 251 to 255
-he says not knowing my alt implies no coaching from scumbuddies
-he likes transcends reads and even says the read on me is how he'd see me if he didn't know I'm town
-the only scum motivation he sees is if transcend sees mulch as his biggest threat which he says makes no sense because mulch just buddies him when he townreads him

And finally he says it's my game so whatever but he's townreading transcend pretty strongly.

He followed up with another post implying transcend would choose town by linking cheets please don't roll against me thread in MD where cheet said he doesn't want to be scum against town transcend. Transcend never posted in that thread.

Preview edit: he's not gaining anything if he's dead scum who told us a living player is confirmed town. If successful, he's shrinking the Lynch pool and giving his partners a higher chance of being lynched. How is this not just common sense at this point?

[Kmd4390]

I only have one reason for reading him because the way he plays makes it hard to take him seriously. He has like 300 posts. Probably two are readable. So good luck finding them. As I've said before, if you want to policy Lynch him I'm not against it especially because it's what my team wants anyway. It just feels weird to do it when I think he's town. I will say I'd rather Lynch mulch than cabd.

[Kmd4390]

If Transcend is town, Chara is probably not.

Why

[Kmd4390]

Tora, what is Almost's read on Chara?

Your recent positions are basically in line with mulch's, is that not a reason to townread him?

That's a common bias, sure. But agreeing with town isnt always town. Especially if my reads are wrong.

[Kmd4390]

Re: Cabd

sounds like he's claiming Friendly Neighbor, which probably makes him town.

Independent of that, I've been a little fence-ish on him in general, but I have a reason (which I don't think will be respected by the crowd) to think that he's unlikely to pick up a scum PM for him team.

I remain curious what exactly he expects from me, as he knows I'm not a super-interactive player. I continue to expect something and remain patiently waiting.

Not sure where you are getting friendly neighbor from, but I'm surprised you'd be so quick to believe it considering you won a game as scum where your partner fakeclaimed friendly neighbor.

[Kmd4390]

Tora, Mathdino wanted you to look at his transcend town case I posted. And did you ask almost for his Chara read?

Kagami , yeah I know. But I'm just surprised that it doesn't even seem to be in the back of your mind or anything. I don't remember playing with Juls-scum since your join date either.

[Kmd4390]

Skimming over your past games, I'm near positive inuyasha was our only game together unless you have alts.

[Kmd4390]

Oh. Homestuck. Yeah.

I agree though. If cabd claims that, he gets a chance to prove it no matter what. I still have no idea where you got friendly neighbor out of his posts.

[Kmd4390]

Oh.

[Kmd4390]

I'm not gonna get lynched.

Also this one but less overt, but yeaaaaaaahhh.

yeah this is the one I was referring to.

Not convinced Kagami holds off posting this in the main thread as scum; someone else had already mentioned seeing a softclaim (iirc it was someone else at least) and there are so many pairs of eyes of each alignment that can potentially find a softclaim that I'm not convinced scum would feel the need to share it privately; obviously going public is a bit of a risk WRT how people react though. Tbh i felt a little bit awkward seeing the softclaim and not mentioning anything and I think my initial reaction was that it might have been scummy because I'm not sure why you'd softclaim in team mafia and I figured everyone else saw it but I still held off mentioning it because shrug.

But etc. Not really worth thinking about at this point.

Yeah I saw that one and didn't want to out him. It was why I said I'd rather Lynch mulch than cabd.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I've read up and three things:
1) Kagami, why did you flip your read on me? It seemed sudden and unexplained.
2) why is anyone townreading the whole Eddie/transcend thing? I think this came from ginngie and mulch so please explain that
3) Eddie why would I town Bloc with the person Im voting?

[Kmd4390]

Hmm

[Kmd4390]

So I gather from 2 that you don't think anything alignment indicative happened there (which is silly, but whatever), but clearly Mulch does.

Now when you hop back a few pages and read Mulch's reaction to what happened, which of the following do you see from Mulch?

"Gosh, this makes you town and I'm happy that I now have another townread and have been corrected in my dumb-town ways"

or do you see

"Wow, that's cheating and it's rubbish. I hope you get modkilled for this, because it's completely unfair that my mislynch is going to get away because of this."

His initial reaction to the post read like "hmm is this allowed?" which tells me nothing about mulch. His unvote reads like "lol the mods basically confirmed him as town" which I don't understand but it looks like mulch reacted positively to it.

[Kmd4390]

Eddie, you asked why I was voting you. I couldn't have my first choice in unabomb so I went to my second which is you based on transcend meta and his handling of mulch.

[Kmd4390]

Eddie, you asked me about Transcend meta.

Open 694
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=72485
Transcend was town. Pretty much just spammed before replacing out. Switched votes quite a bit on Day 1 but didn't give much reasoning but he gives one liners that kind of give you an idea where he is coming from.

Boon large 209
viewtopic.php?t=73745&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go
Transcend was town. His Day 1 is mostly spam. Switched votes quite a bit Day 1 but didn't give much reasoning but he gives one liners that kind of give you an idea where he is coming from.

Boon Large 204:
viewtopic.php?t=72014&f=55&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
Transcend was scum here. Now the spam is still here. But you'll notice he's locked in on two players: Gamma and Crush, both lynchbait type players. Also the one liner reasoning isn't present. It's more "X is scum, Y is town, oh wow Z is scummy, A is locktown".

Now ISO him here. Suddenly he's against spam and the post where he votes Mulch, a lynchbait type player, he simply states Mulch "is scum". Says he "would lynch" Chara. 164 and 166 where he is supposed to be giving reasoning, he just says "being scummy" and "very scummy". I asked Transcend earlier why he isn't obvtown to me yet. I think it's those one-liner reasons for reads that I always seem to understand where he's coming from on and even agree quite a bit, but something usually screams town about him early on and it just isn't there this game. He also locked on to Mulch for the majority of his time here in a way that just isn't present in his town games.

And no, these aren't my only games with Transcend. They are just the three most recent.

Reading what I've missed now.

Links fixed. -Ether

[Kmd4390]

Ugh, why aren't those clickable?

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, tell me about Una scum? i want to add him to the townpile.

Well there's Cheet's case. There's the fact that right after the defense that he'd never take a scum role, he said "It's because I'm bad at town -> I get scumread, I'm OK as scum -> I get townread". There's the "reads" that aren't really reads. There's the ridiculous amount of OMGUS in what actual stances he's taken (which Mathdino says is town for him but I dunno). I mean look at his ISO. I don't understand how anyone reads his posts and thinks town.
Added after reading last few pages: I do actually like his logic regarding Transcend though and his suggestion of reads lists as coming from town.

I've seen Ginngie get passionate and angry when people push them or when their really sure about a read, but I think they should understand why someone not familiar with him wouldn't be town reading Aristophanes at this point given what he has contributed so far.

I understand not townreading him, but why is anyone specifically scumreading him at this point?

For those reading, I'd like everyone to take a moment and think about how Spiffeh is scumreading me for saying fuck off

That feels like a gross oversimplification of what he is saying.

Links fixed. -Ether

Thanks Ether!

[Kmd4390]

Mulch what case? The one that transcend quoted that caused the swap?

[Kmd4390]

Mulch what case? The one that transcend quoted that caused the swap?

Yeah it read as really towny to me. Bad but towny.

What about it felt town specifically?

[Kmd4390]

Mulch, I dunno. It's entirely possible that transcend said hey Eddie can you write up a really good case on mulch for me and that's what he came up with. If you said it came across as genuine that's one thing. But you're going with this whole ego battle thing that basically implies he didn't even believe in the case which doesn't really sound all that town to me.

Eddie, man you were obvtown as mutton lol. But wasn't Boon's other game that I linked the large you're talking about?

[Kmd4390]

Eddie yeah I didn't really go into the crazy LYLO stuff because it makes no sense to compare Transcends LYLO play to here when we are still on Day 1.

[Kmd4390]

I feel like I've seen spiff struggle to get reads as town before. I'm gonna try to find it

[Kmd4390]

I feel like I've seen spiff struggle to get reads as town before. I'm gonna try to find it

Hmm. Couldn't find it. Kind of thought maybe it was Fate's shaman mafia, but when I ISO'd him it was clear what his reads were. My phone is being dumb. Maybe I'll look a little harder on the computer tonight. While I was looking though I found another game I played with firebringer. Apparently he was in guns n roses mafia.

I'm a little thrown off by him claiming to never select scum over town because of the nature of Team Mafia

But a lot of people have said that at some point so idk how much stock can be put into it

He also seems to think he's better as scum than town which makes that line really out of place.

[Kmd4390]

i feel like una's a player i could soul read

Every time I read Una I get the opposite alignment to what he actually is

It's because I'm bad at town -> I get scumread, I'm OK as scum -> I get townread.

[Kmd4390]

I feel like I've seen spiff struggle to get reads as town before. I'm gonna try to find it

Hmm. Couldn't find it. Kind of thought maybe it was Fate's shaman mafia, but when I ISO'd him it was clear what his reads were. My phone is being dumb. Maybe I'll look a little harder on the computer tonight. While I was looking though I found another game I played with firebringer. Apparently he was in guns n roses mafia.
.

So it turns out Shaman Mafia was the game I was thinking of. I actually described him in that game as "bored and willing to go with the flow". But his early reads were a lot more clear there. So while he's giving off the same vibe I remember there, there are some differences as well. What it does show though, is that Underwhelming-Spiff isn't necessarily scum-Spiff which is what I was getting at. The lack of reads on the other hand I don't think I've seen from him.

Mainly in nancy's game, Girls 2, the same ordeal/events proceeded with Spiff.

Wow I'm losing it. I almost always remember who was in what game and that one was pretty recent and I forgot Spiff was in it. But I skimmed his ISO there to try to ping my memory and can't really see what you see that is similar between him there and here. Can you elaborate on that for me?

KMD: Very capable as scum. Had me pocketed in that large, caught him in the second one. Also capable as town though, and as scum I recall him only really doing occasional wallposting whereas here he's interacting a bit more which I guess is a point in his favour? Probably closer to the null or scum pile if I'm honest, but I don't remember them doing anything pingy either.

Two things:
1) When have you seen my town game before?
2) The wall posts were probably all catch up posts. Here, I'm interacting more because I'm actually here. It's not an alignment tell. It just means I'm on vacation and haven't worked a day since Team Mafia started.

Implosion: Town lean. Disagree with the obv town comment. Nothing more to say.

Can you expand on this? I feel like a lot of people are using the words "Implosion" and "town" together and none of it comes with reasons and I'm just not seeing what the rest of you are. Anyone townreading Implosion can answer this by the way.

Needless to say if cabd actually is roleblocked and flips town tomorrow this is incredibly scummy

I really dislike eddies readslist in the reads and in the reasons

Did you change your mind on the forced swap basically being a free clear then?

Chara/KMD/Kagami/Patrick/Implosion/Ari/Fire/Mulch/Una

why should i not lynch u :O

Well I'm town. Aris and Fire are town. Mulch I think is town but my team disagrees so meh. The rest of that list, I don't have an answer. Chara and Patrick I'm not really seeing one way or the other. Kagami, Implosion, and Una would all be fine by me.

town: Toranaga, Kmd, Firebringer, Ginngie, Cheet
townish: Cabd, Spiffeh, Mulch, Patrick

leftovers: Eddie, Una
scummy leftovers: Kagami, implosion, Aristophanes

This is almost freaky how close those reads are to my own. Patrick is meh and I'm not seeing Aris scum but otherwise you've just about nailed my reads. How does that happen?

Can someone make a nice summarized case for why they're liking Kagami for scum?

It was mostly the way she approached my reasoning for Mulch being town. I had her as maybe gut scum before that anyway, but she didn't seem to be trying to understand my logic when for townreading Mulch at first. I called her out for it and suddenly she started attacking me for inconsistencies that simply weren't there. Then when I pushed back, suddenly she's townreading me again. It didn't feel like natural progression. I asked her why and somehow it's meta from a game that I was really too busy to play which doesn't at all fit how I'm playing here. The way she reacted to cabd's soft claim was weird too. Like, someone said as scum she probably wouldn't out it and would just save it for the PT, but I'm not sure that's 100% true. But my issue wasn't really her outing it. It was the way she instantly trusted it despite once being part of a scum team that successfully pulled off a friendly neighbor fakeclaim. It feels too much like "well, this lynch is off the table" rather than "ok, we'll give him a chance to prove it". Mulch has also mentioned the way Kagami has been latched on to him for pretty much the entire game. I'm not entirely sure this is scummy, but it's one more thing you can consider.

He's been asking questions that actually matter and holding people to them, and I think the last time I saw scum!KMD he was in perpetual "catch up mode" which I feel would be an easy thing for him to revert back to as scum with the hyper-posty nature of this game

Same thing I told Eddie. That last paragraph is NOT an alignment tell. It's an I've been home a lot tell. I would never lurk strategically. When I'm not around is usually when I'm scum read the most which ensures I get lynched around Day 3 or 4. If I was scum, I'd want to survive so using a suicidal strategy would be downright stupid.

Let's assume I'm town, who do you think is scum here? Do you think it's Chara?

4 Kagami (Firebringer, Mulch, Ginngie, Chara)

I'm actually not seeing anyone on this wagon I think is scum. A Kagami town flip would probably mean I have to re-evaluate, but *shrug*.

___________________

Unvote, Vote Kagami

I'll jump on that wagon.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd

I didn’t think the case by Eddie was auto clearing, I just thought it was town indicative and the case itself was very towny

Your phrasing here seemed to imply otherwise:

That's incorrect I'm scumreading 2/4 people that vote me

I mean you scum read Transcend (Eddie's predecessor) HARD until he broke the rules by proving he was being genuine so not much you can do about that one

And implosion is just obviously town

Why are you acting like it's a bad thing

It's basically a free advantage

Am I reading it wrong? And even if so, have you changed your mind on it? What is your read on Eddie right now?

i could elaborate on either Patrick or Ari if you cared.

Sure, let's hear it.

[Kmd4390]

Patrick, was that Boost Mafia where I bussed the shit out of Mastina just to get town cred and get boosted and it worked but we still lost the game? Also, you said you don't see the case on Kagami. Have you read any of what I said about Kagami and you disagree with it or...?

I have a funny feeling that you're going to regret this one as much as I hope you regret that Inu Yasha post

I don't regret anything. I think the Inuyasha point is a good one.

[Kmd4390]

Holy shit. Just went back and read some of Boost Mafia. I was pretty terrible in that game. I always thought 2009 was some of my best mafia. Maybe not.

[Kmd4390]

It's 2 AM so I still need to read everything since my last post and I'll do that tomorrow but saw this: Cheet, I acknowledged the friendly neighbor thing in Post 1300. It's a decent point that made me think a little but I'd definitely think the first instinct wouldn't be "oh he's softing friendly neighbor. That's town." I'd expect more "Ok, prove it". Even without bringing meta into it I'd expect that. But from someone with the history that Kagami has with that role? Yeah, I'd especially expect it.

_________________

Actually scratch the still needing to read. It wasn't much so I made myself do it.

[Kmd4390]

KMD just has a lot of energy that I feel would be really really hard to fake for scum and especially for scumHim (having seen him basically lurk out as scum a few times in the past.

Cheet. What is this?

I don't actually remember KMD townreading mulch nor any reasons

I am. See my back and forth with Kagami.

I haven't. Personality Analysis (tm). Actually, I think you were town in that LQ game I read through, but regardless I can tell from your quality and style of scum game you are good at town too, if you can post like that as scum you can certainly do it as town. And, I buy 2. Almost like it discounts Spiffehs reasons for townreading you o.o

Fair. And yes, it does discount spiffs reasons for townreading me. Anyone who tries to read me based on activity is either faking their reasons or just flat wrong about how to read me. So when I see it I have to determine which it is. Its been done a few times this game and even when it leads to a town read it's kind of irritating. When I have free time, I'm active. When I don't, I'm not. It's simple and can be proven over about a decade of meta yet people still either don't get it or abuse it for any easy way to fake reads. What do you think of spiff using this after scum reading me for my teams input? Is it fake or just wrong? Im on the fence, personally.

What's he doing that's scummy? I can't remember him ever pinging me, and again I don't have time to do ISOs rn and have not seen one single convincing reason to scumread him

I'll ISO implosion when I'm on my computer and get back to you.

So, correct me if I'm wrong but I'm interpreting this as you approve of my lynch pool for the most part. Aristo needs to actually post before I'm locking him as town, even though he's pretty shit at scum and despises it it isn't the same as Creature.

Remind me what your Lynch pool was.

His scum tells are being too nice as scum, forced posting, lurking. He is way behind and not posting anything relevant, he has been completely nice, and as you said forced. Like I said, I'm waiting for him to post because he really likely would want a town PM to me but this is scum ari in play so far, so we need the catchup and then active Ari. KMD, rebuttal?

I don't have one. We have next to nothing to judge Aris on so I'm trusting what everyone says of his meta and preferring town. I think I have two games with Aris. Both were town games. One he was pretty involved and gambited with a LYLO scum claim. The other was exactly like this.

___________

Cheet, why do you think Town Kagami flips his read on me so suddenly after that exchange?

__________

That's through page 80. My phone is ridiculously unreliable lately so I'm hitting submit now before I lose this post.

[Kmd4390]

Cheet, activity isn't an alignment tell for me. It's a sign of whether I've been at work a lot or not. Wakes game is a perfect example. My shifts are 16 hours. Days 1 and 2 started while I was at work and lasted less than 16 hours. Had I been town, no I wouldn't have risked my job by getting internet access and posting.

As far as Kagami, I know it's hard to judge for you because you weren't in that game, but if he really thought I was scum for townreading mulch, nothing from Inuyasha should be changing his mind on that.

[Kmd4390]

Eddie, you asked me about scummy things Implosion has done. I really should dig deeper on him anyway because my gut is telling me he has a decent chance of being scum here. Far from my strongest scum read, but enough to be worth looking into. So...
-I hate to keep going back to this, but I didn't like the way he reacted to Mulch's whole mason claim thing. It seemed like he was trying to fake an easy opinion by shrugging it off as "well that's just Mulch". See where he said:

This is something he has explicitly stated he just does sometimes.

And Mulch answered with simply "I have?". It feels like he saw what happened and decided what stance to take without thinking critically about it. And then after that, he said that Mulch was after town cred. That makes no sense to me considering Mulch's line of reasoning was even if he (Mulch) flips scum, we should still treat Tora as confirmed town. It just doesn't feel like Implosion is actively sorting here.

-This:

But it's not really accurate to say that I'm scumreading anyone right now. I'm pretty reluctant these days to actually scumread anyone early d1 unless something sort of falls into place, which it does sometimes but not always. I mostly just accumulate townreads.

And I know he's not the only one guilty of it (see spiff), but it really felt like he wanted to fly under the radar for a while. And not just in the sense of activity. But more...just not stirring up controversy. Not getting his hands dirty. Not giving anyone a chance to say "man that was a really scummy push".

-His confidence in me being town just feels unnaturally strong. I mean, he did say it was because of my stance on teammates helping, so it's not like he hasn't given a reason but it seems like he's coasting on that as a reason and for me to be his "strongest townread", "unquestionably town", and "blatantly obvtown" over it just doesn't feel right. I feel weird having issues with town reads on me because it keeps coming up and I don't usually do that to this extent, but some of them just feel out of place and Implosion's fits that category just like Kagami's does. Cheet and maybe Spiff I think just have the right read for the wrong reasons. These two don't feel natural.

[Kmd4390]

As to the other game, I haven't read it but it sounds like Kagami showed a reasonable difference there.

That this playerlist is smarter than a town consisting of: ffery, Prohawk, Oversoul, TSO, Titus, AP, Majiffy, Nero, myself, penguin alien, and Muffinman? Because I'm not entirely sure I agree with that.

i think i promised Kmd my explanation on Aristophanes and Patrick

Correct.

_____________

Implosion:
- Regardless, it doesn't make sense to suggest that he'd be after town cred. Whether you believe he actually is or that his scum motivation would be town cred IF he is scum, neither line of reasoning fits. The "whether I flip town or scum" line is important because it shows exactly what his motivation was: getting us to treat Tora as confirmed town. It serves no purpose to his own game as scum. It doesn't net him town cred. It just says "treat Tora as confirmed town". That's it.

my stance is simply that it's something completely within his ability to do as town and as scum, and that probabilistic arguments (i.e. "he's done it in X towngames and only Y scumgames") are inherently less reliable in team mafia because it's a natural time to break meta, and that therefore it's null.

Is it? I don't have experience with him. Do you have examples?

-Of all the players you think you could have gotten on their nerves (mulch, chara, cabd, kagami, firebringer), I feel like that's probably the list that's least likely to be a problem for scum-you. They are all either consensus lynch candidates, not a serious presence in this game, or both. Maybe I'm wrong though as I look back through the playerlist. I still feel like you've been under the radar quite a bit though. Maybe it's not intentional or maybe it is, but it's something that triggered my gut.

-Ehhh. I dunno. I don't want to turn the thread into "let's talk about how town I am". You've seen my stance and I'm willing to consider that you say there's more to it.

[Kmd4390]

Implosion:
Pocketing/buddying who? Tora? Because I'm getting the idea they know each other pretty well and that complicates things a little more than:
Mulch: Tora and I are masons
Tora: Huh?
Tora: Oh. Ok. Sure lol
Mulch: Tora is confirmed town
Tora: Sweet. I'm gonna trust Mulch completely now.

Why aren't you townreading me?

I just answered this for Eddie. You even responded to it. I will say your answers satisfied some (not all) of my concern. And you're also like a fourth or fifth choice for me in a game of three scum. But better question. Why should I be townreading you?

______________

Tora, had I been scum and read the thread and posted reads and then a teammate gave different reads, I probably would have said something similar. But I wouldn't just outright fake it. There'd be no reason to.

_____________

Preview edit: Uhhh. Implosion, I'm gonna leave my top part there but yeah I guess you kinda nailed the Mulch/Tora thing lol. Tora, can you elaborate on why you changed your mind?

[Kmd4390]

Tora, why is Mulch scum? This is important. There's a chance I trust you and switch wagons.

[Kmd4390]

Tora, why is Mulch scum? This is important. There's a chance I trust you and switch wagons.

Don't worry he'll switch eventually or else lolhim and I get to rub it in his face forever

Then why'd you call it a death sentence for you?

[Kmd4390]

Tora, why is Mulch scum? This is important. There's a chance I trust you and switch wagons.

Don't worry he'll switch eventually or else lolhim and I get to rub it in his face forever

Then why'd you call it a death sentence for you?

Because he knows how to read me so if he continues to say I'm scum I'm not even going to fight it

Ok.

Unvote, Vote Mulch

I skimmed his ISO and the content is lacking. I disliked transcend's push on him to the point of hard scumreading transcend, but it's not strong enough to give mulch a pass. he didn't scumhunt. I ask for two ISOs, he gives me two likely town ISOs. your ISO doesn't need anyone reviewing it. all of those mathdino stances are unlikely to come from scum, period. he hasn't delivered. town mulch is better than this. I'm holding him to this standard and think his lynch is ok this gameday.

I think una and implosion should be looked at.

I think I like this guy.

[Kmd4390]

Well that was short lived.

Unvote, Vote Kagami

I still don't like mulch's answer to me for the record.

[Kmd4390]

Tora you're confusing me.

[Kmd4390]

iii) Early on Spiffeh made some interesting points against kmd that I quite liked. Seemed pretty unlikely that he would do that with a scumbuddy who was otherwise swimming along fine, which means that leaning more scummily on kmd comes with a more towny lean on spiff.

So what is your read on Spiff now after 180ing on me? I ctrl+f'd his name in your ISO and it seems like you don't like him but it's hard to tell if it's really a scum read and then I see his name missing in your list on 1270 but even that list is only if Mulch is town.\

1. As I said before, there's a world of difference between someone claiming FN when run up to L-1, then repeatedly failing to be confirmed, then claiming they only had 3 shots versus Cabd softing unlynchable early on then pretty-much claiming FN. The reason I do have concerns about Cabd is not that I am especially skeptical of FNs, but that he's familiar enough with me that he should have had a townread based on more than just me outing his obvious-ish soft.

Kmd will understand, I don't really want to go into part of that because I'm trying to say it nicely.

Kagami. Really? Your team outplayed mine once. That doesn't make me stupid. He claimed three shot and got three chances. He claimed rb'd which is plausible for an outed power role. On the last chance, someone confirmed him. That someone happened to be someone who we all thought was town at the time and SK who actually received the message and didn't want to destroy his own game by lynching the friendly neighbor and having them flip town so he just claimed it. We just didn't realize scum were bold enough to tie 66% of their team to that claim. It was a good play and it worked. There's no reason for you to imply I can't play a game that I've been playing for a decade just because I was part of a team that lost once. I really hope you aren't trying to just discredit someone who is voting for you because that would be a low blow to do it like that.

Considering this quote, and kmd/Spiffeh wondering why I say I wouldn't take a scum-PM after a quote like this..
When I say I am "OK as scum", it obviously means OK. Not good, not great. OK.

"OK" sounds better than "bad". If you are bad at town, why would you pick it? That logic works both ways. Basically, I don't think that guessing what you would pick helps here, but I don't like you using it as a defense and then making that statement.

______________

Chara, don't forget you still owe me explanations on Aris and Patrick reads. I saw that you talked a little about Aris but wasn't sure if there was more to it or not.

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer is that a real vote or are you just trying to be a trend setter or something?

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, I have no idea what you think you are seeing that I'm not. Cheet is probably the furthest from apathetic I've seen him in a while.

but there's also an element of me building up the best case for Kagami-scum that I can and seeing if other people agree with it or if certain points stand out or if the whole thing is rubbish.

Dude. You want me to town read you and then you post something like this. That doesn't sound like a town mindset at all.

this is a fine list, Chara and Toranaga swapped is the only other addendum I'd make.

It might or might not mean anything, but this is the second time I can remember Eddie calling someone's list a good one. The other was Cheet's which isn't really all that close to this one. Eddie's own list also had Cheet and Cabd as town where Firebringer has them in his bottom four. Eddie, why is this a good list and why was Cheet's? Be specific.

[Kmd4390]

Dude. You want me to town read you and then you post something like this. That doesn't sound like a town mindset at all.

confoozed

Why?

The only real disagreement is... well, nothing really? Cheet townreads fire and fire scumreads cheet which I disagree with? Don't really get what you mean by they aren't too similar.

Look at firebringer top four scum picks. It's cheet, two of cheets town reads, and cabd. They also have opposite reads on spiff (as I now see he's pointed out himself lol)

And yes, I do. What's wrong with acknowledging my own confirmation bias?

Bias? The way you phrased it made it sound intentional.

[Kmd4390]

That's fair, actually. It stood out to me and I wasn't really taking full context into consideration as much as I should have.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd: So if I understood this correctly: Kagami and Imp have gained scumleans from you because of HOW they have presented their townreads on you? I like this line of thinking.

That was part of it, yeah. I feel a little better about implosion on that issue now though.

[Kmd4390]

I was expecting that to be a post calling unabombs list a good list lol

[Kmd4390]

Like for example this:

Reads rn

Town
Eddie Cane, Mulch, Chara
Spiffeh, Toranaga, Ginngie
Kmd43

Null

Patrick, implosion, Unabomeh
Scum lean
Aristophanes, Cabd
Scum
Cheetory, Kagami

Combined with this:

Do you agree if Kagami is town then Mulch slot is scum?

Yeah I said that the other day

Makes very little sense to me. It implies a level of certainty in Kagami being scum that I don't see how someone could have on day 1, such that a Kagami town-flip would bring Mulch right down to the bottom of the list, despite being a current strong town-read. It's not the only example, I think both Ginggie and Eddie have said that there is 1 scum among Kagami/Mulch, maybe someone else has as well. Why is that so likely to be true?

I feel this way to some extent. Part of what is scummy about Kagami is the mulch vote park. That really only makes sense if mulch is town. So if mulch were to flip scum, I'd consider reversing my read on Kagami. If Kagami we're to flip scum, I'd expect mulch to be Town. I don't think either of them flipping town really changes anything for me though.

[Kmd4390]

I don’t see Kagami and Mulch as not TvS

Why can't they both be town?

[Kmd4390]

Because I’m setting up mislynches

Real answer is it doesn’t seem like town and town
Town v Town is more overwhelming and I got an underwhelming feel

That makes no sense.

Basically, the argument I see for this (other people might have other arguments I've missed) is just that they're two of the scummier individual people, and that they aren't likely scum together. This is basically the easiest way in the world to set up two mislynches in a row as scum while only making it look like you were involved in one, if it is the event that they are both town. But that said, it can also be genuine as town to think that those two are individually scummy but just not likely scum together.

This makes more sense.

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, Overwhelming or underwhelming usually says more about the player than the alignment of them and the person they are arguing with.

Like. I townread you and Aris. If you guys became the lead wagons and/or went after each other, I'd be surprised to see it as overwhelming.

[Kmd4390]

lol k.

whatever you say

[Kmd4390]

lol k.

whatever you say

Thank you for the respect of my skills and ability
It was nice talking to you too

Any time bro

[Kmd4390]

i mean, they're really putting themselves into a bad position if mulch slot flips town. i don't see the scum motivation for playing the way they are, mulch isn't a player you need to throw a slot away to mislynch.

we got into the one must be scum mentality when I started pushing it, I'm like 80% sure I pushed it first and I still stand by it confidently

I'm not sure how you can believe both of these things. Like if assemble is lynched today and flips town, do you just stop believing the first quote and push Kagami anyway or...? What am I missing here?

[Kmd4390]

i mean, they're really putting themselves into a bad position if mulch slot flips town. i don't see the scum motivation for playing the way they are, mulch isn't a player you need to throw a slot away to mislynch.

we got into the one must be scum mentality when I started pushing it, I'm like 80% sure I pushed it first and I still stand by it confidently

I'm not sure how you can believe both of these things. Like if assemble is lynched today and flips town, do you just stop believing the first quote and push Kagami anyway or...? What am I missing here?

i don't scumread kagami. i've already explained why mulch being town likely makes him scum as best i can past fire's gut thing which is true. town!mulch and town!kagami means mulch was hard tunnelled by two strong townies and we couldn't get the lynch through for 50+ pages, with scum defending mulch the whole time. remember, up until very recently nobody has pushed mulch at all outside of myself and kagami, even getting votes has been pulling teeth up until my last case and his subsequent blowup. wasn't it literally just myself and kagami before that? and meanwhile, no other wagons are starting at all.... except kagami? so scum spent that entire time pushing kagami and WKing a wagon that wasn't happening? and, there's also that mulch despite his many, many flaws is pretty good at reading people (and in this hypothetical town mulch world demonstrated so by putting me as his hardest TR despite me pushing him and his flaming of my character and me as a person) and still had kagami as scum; this would require him also being wrong on that front. additionally, with a town mulch kagami's iso has literally just been tunnelling town and since his entire team "agrees" with the read (i know i'm being hypocritical here) that would be very unlikely. finally, almost everyone else in this game is so damn townie and nobody has disagreed with my poe yet.

Well implosion and sort of spiff to but ok maybe. But you don't think scum would be as likely to bus scum-mulch as they are to vote town-mulch?

[Kmd4390]

It auto corrected too to to when it should be too. Fuck you phone making it look like I don't know basic grammar.

[Kmd4390]

Gamma Emerald, Aeronaut, Something_Smart and Fro99er.
You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

VOTE: Aristophanes

is this a guilty or just a scumread?

VOTE: una

Wondering that myself. If it is though, the wagon is gonna go fast and like Kagami said we need to sort Cabd's N1 before we do anything so I'm not gonna vote yet.

[Kmd4390]

Thought it was obvious what I was saying, but not to worry.

Mulch/Aris/Cabd?

[Kmd4390]

Hey Tora when you get here, Mathdino wants Almost50's take on this game and who is scum with Mulch.

[Kmd4390]

Tora, mastina flipped scum in Inventions. Do you think that makes Ginngie more likely town?

[Kmd4390]

KMD I don't like your line of questioning and it isn't helpingnmy scumread on your slot jsyk

Don't care. My team needs these answers.

[Kmd4390]

I might have it figured out but if he picked unabomb then just...lol

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer, It's not. We can reference Mod confirmed info. A flip is mod confirmed.

[Kmd4390]

KMD I don't like your line of questioning and it isn't helpingnmy scumread on your slot jsyk

Don't care. My team needs these answers.

...alrigjt, I know what you're getting at

can una get some more votes? I might have a hard or soft guilty

I'm gonna stick with this for now:

If it is though, the wagon is gonna go fast and like Kagami said we need to sort Cabd's N1 before we do anything so I'm not gonna vote yet.

[Kmd4390]

speaking of townreading mulch... sup kmd

If this is your "told you so", mathdino already did that to me.

If unas claiming he has no night action it should be a guilty maybe. Cabd is annoying me with his sorting bullshit though so idrc if you pursue that first.

If someone confirms Cabd, I'll probably vote unabomb then.

_______________

I agree that Unabomb should claim before Eddie.

[Kmd4390]

“If we you let Chara get to LYLO ur all a bunch of idiots

And if Eddie forces a claim from obv town unabomeh, then we are lynching him”
-the voices in my head

Is RC's Chara stance based on just this game or bigger picture? Because big picture makes it hard to see Chara being scum for me.

[Kmd4390]

“If we you let Chara get to LYLO ur all a bunch of idiots

And if Eddie forces a claim from obv town unabomeh, then we are lynching him”
-the voices in my head

Is RC's Chara stance based on just this game or bigger picture? Because big picture makes it hard to see Chara being scum for me.

Rc wouldn’t go into specifics with me.

That's... weird.

[Kmd4390]

Vote unabomb

[Kmd4390]

Rc says he can’t talk about chara because he is factoring teams composition into it
And unabomeh he says ur just obv town and didn’t pick up on crumbs

That's all I was asking. I did the same thing and got the opposite read though.

_________

I see cabds claim. Need to digest.

[Kmd4390]

Firebringer,
Mathdino says cabd is town because he believes the claim but he understands the need to Lynch him. I'm less sure of the claim myself mostly because I'm not sure scum would shoot him but Mathdino says it makes sense to shoot someone who is about to be confirmed and who they can't block and I can't say I fully disagree with that. I think I'm leaning town pending scum's kill being stopped some other way.

He says unabomb and Aris are still town. I agree on Aris. Unabomb I want Eddie's thing sorted but I have a guess what unabomb is going to claim and I don't trust it.

He's got Eddie as cleared by the flip. I mostly agree. I'm not seeing Eddie scum anymore.

He's got ginngie also town. I had the same read Day 1 but mulch's flip makes me less sure.

He says don't rule out Kagami. Scum can be counterwagons to scum. I don't personally think that's the case here though. If Kagami is scum, his entire day 1 was hard bus mulch.

He's not sure on scum without intense reading and says sheep Ginngie.

I also have cheet as obvtown and Chara likely town. Tora obvtown.

Could see either way on anyone else.

Haven't gotten recent reads from North, Dave, or guiltylion. Will ask in PT.

[Kmd4390]

Mathdino also says town on firebringer and wants to know if RC wanted reads based on this game or based on everything because he says Tora is scummy by play.

[Kmd4390]

*shrug*

[Kmd4390]

Cheet, if cabd is town, then from scum's point of view he was about to be confirmed town. I understand the logic in killing confirmed town, especially before he's actually confirmed because he wasn't likely to draw doc protection yet. Like if he got a FAN through, that overrides ANYTHING in his play.

Not sure what scum game was my best. Lemme look through them. I've played a lot of games lol

[Kmd4390]

KMD can you link me your best scumgame?

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=14190

Most of my best work was in the QT which I can't find but me vs reap day 1 along with his fake claim was all me.

___________

Cheet, I'm not sure Mathdino is assuming fear would be the reason for that shot. Killing confirmed town is usually a good move and they'd have no reason to assume cabd would like as town. Why is it so hard to believe he's a possible shot? I didn't think so at first either but considering theyd expect him to be confirmed town, it seems entirely possible.

Preview edit: Confirmed town isn't in the Lynch pool so it's kinda common sense that from a scum point of view they need to die at some point.

[Kmd4390]

sure it's common sense, but a night 1 kill isn't just "take out confirmed town". there are other utilities of the scum kill besides removing an IC. taking out a strong town voice makes more sense. even if confirmed town, how much sway does Cabd have in the game?

That's one of many strategies, yes. So is killing confirmed town before they get confirmed.

___________

Mathdino says:
-he hasn't even analyzed since the flips and will give better reads later

-Almost50, RC, Eddie, and Bins should be able to back him up on Cabd being town by team composition even though his play is scummy. Tora, Firebringer, and Implosion should ask them. He's surprised Cheet doesn't see it.

-Tora is town by team composition

-Most of his reads come from about Page 60 when he was telling me to just lynch Mulch.

-when he's scum, confirmed townies are his priority NKs.

[Kmd4390]

-Almost50, RC, Eddie, and Bins should be able to back him up on Cabd being town by team composition even though his play is scummy. Tora, Firebringer, and Implosion should ask them. He's surprised Cheet doesn't see it.

This isn't good reasoning to townread someone.
We don't know how many scum are on their team and it's gambler's fallacy to play that game.
If this was the reason for the townread you should have said so in the first place because dancing around it made what you were saying sound not real.

I'm just now getting the full picture myself and it's not something that's gonna be allowed in this thread.

[Kmd4390]

It has nothing to do with probability and how many scum roles they were likely to get. It gets more specific than that. That's why it can't be discussed here.

[Kmd4390]

also, show me why tor is obvtown please for shits n giggles.

I can't without breaking rules. Why is Patrick so high on your reads list?

[Kmd4390]

Ginngie is actually obvtown. After losing partners on the first two days, it makes no sense for scum to get into a 1v1 with town. The last scum needed to Outlast like 12 people so there's no way they make that play. I know it wasn't a good town play either, but you can at least figure out what the logic would be in doing it.

All I can come up with is unabomb as scum but he's been softing a power role of some sort. The way he asked who everyone thought was doc when the game was supposed to be over sounded more like boon than una and why would boon be having him say things if that team actually thought the game was over?

I dunno. My reads have sucked so far so I'm kind of at a loss.

[Kmd4390]

Cheet who should I vote other than Ginngie?

[Kmd4390]

Surprised Mathdino doesn't have an opinion on the matter.

He does but he was wrong on cabd...

He says it's Chara. Has unabomb as town. Firebringer 100% town. Patrick and Aris as town who won't be NKd and says don't let them be lynched. Said power roles should check in { Chara, spiff, cheet, implosion, myself, Ginngie}

[Kmd4390]

Cheet who should I vote other than Ginngie?

[Kmd4390]

Why was Chara's reaction town? If you don't have a scum read, I'll probably just listen to Mathdino and he wants to Lynch Chara. He also says it's important we pay attention to his town Bloc.

[Kmd4390]

Checking you wouldn't be the worst idea, actually. No one seems to have a clue who is scum and one possible reason for that is that everyone is townreading the last scum. You're also third on that list, not first.

The cabd read only was 20% related to this game.

As far as Chara, I asked because I'm considering voting there and wanted to know why you have him as town, not to get you to drop your read. I don't buy consistency as a town tell. I don't see why if he was going to take Elli's approach to this game, he'd change his mind as town. And I don't have the meta you do.

I also want to point out the only thing I remember him being wrong on was cabd. He got mulch right. He was better than I was on Kagami and Eddie. And if unabomb turns out to be town, he got me there too. Tora is the only one I was more sure of than him and even that he had right.

Let me go back and see what he said about Chara and I'll get back to you.

Preview edit: what changed is he's been posting in our team's PT and doesn't seem to have lost any confidence.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. The bulk of the case can't be posted here. But Mathdino wants to point out that Chara DID have incentive to quickly check Tora as scum because one of our questions to Tora had been Almost50s take on Chara's play.

And he wants me to point out that his list was ordered. The only reason for an investigative to check you is if Chara/spiff are lynched or cleared and the game isn't over yet.

Vote Chara

I'm gonna trust this for now.

[Kmd4390]

But Mathdino wants to point out that Chara DID have incentive to quickly check Tora as scum because one of our questions to Tora had been Almost50s take on Chara's play.

Literally nobody doubted the guilty yesterday.
This is a garbage reason to scumread Chara.

Pretty sure that was just a counter to your point that he's town for being here for it. He said he's got more in-game reasons than I remembered so he's gonna dog those up.

[Kmd4390]

Hmm. The bulk of the case can't be posted here. But Mathdino wants to point out that Chara DID have incentive to quickly check Tora as scum because one of our questions to Tora had been Almost50s take on Chara's play.

And he wants me to point out that his list was ordered. The only reason for an investigative to check you is if Chara/spiff are lynched or cleared and the game isn't over yet.

Vote Chara

I'm gonna trust this for now.

you realize that i

also

asked Toranaga about Almost's read on me?
on like... day 1?

You asked for Almost's thoughts on the game. I don't see a request for his read on you in your ISO with ctrl+f.

[Kmd4390]

Kmd, none of Math's reads are impressing me.

Uhhh. I'd be surprised if you said otherwise considering you're his strongest scum read.

i have to wonder if scum Kmd would be coached to attempt to mislynch me here and face blowback for it if i go down. perhaps being original in their push (i'm really not going to be mislynched, haha) is an attempt to emulate a town opinion?

Considering how wrong I've been so far, that would be dumb. If I was scum, the only way to save my game right now would be an awesome fakeclaim because I'm on like everyone's shortlist for a lynch.

asking for his thoughts on the game is asking for a read on me. he knows that. there's no way he would talk about this game to Toranaga and not mention a read on me.

Ehhhh...not specifically which you seemed to be implying.

[Kmd4390]

finally: Kmd trusting its teams reads over its own also bothers me. one of Fire's townpoints was from RC yelling that i'm scum and Fire going "nah". (not the only reason or even a good one, but still)
saying one is listening to their teammates is a line of separation between the read and the player, and essentially makes it impossible to ascertain how genuine the person is being.
right now i'm thinking Mathdino is doing his best to get Kmd out of this hole for a longshot win.

I haven't seen mathdinos scum game, but from what he says I think I'm better scum than he is. I wouldn't default to him to save scum-me.

what do you mean by changing my mind?

I mean I don't think your alignment would factor in to whether or not you took Elli's advice. Cheet said it's part of why he's townreading you. I don't agree with his logic.

i'm not convinced on why you're scumreading me. perhaps it's because i'm reading through your ISO backwards, but it just sounds like you're following Math's read

I am following his read.

[Kmd4390]

Someone joined the can’t read me club.
The next meeting is next Tuesday at 2

I didn't get an invite but can't make that time anyway

[Kmd4390]

So Ginngie/Firebringer/Aristophanes/Chara are the ones leading the conversation atm.

I have no idea which of you could be scum.

It's not Ginngie. I don't think it's Aris. Try voting Chara with me.

[Kmd4390]

For what it's worth, Mathdino wanted to town bloc: Me, Firebringer, Aristo, Patrick and maybe: Ginngie, implosion. He was pretty set on that being the most important thing today and thought the game would end with lynches on Chara and Spiff.

when did Kmd's suspicion of me happen? was that before or after i started suspecting it?

I think after. It was when I went back and forth with Cheet a little bit and decided I couldn't sheep him but then Mathdino started talking to me and I decided to go with what he said.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah. What is in my team's PT is all stuff that's not from this game. Mathdino said there was plenty from the game, but I'm still waiting on exactly what that is.

[Kmd4390]

Mathdino said there was plenty from the game

If Mathdino doesn't give me a reason why I'm #3 on his list of people to lynch by end of day today, then I'm going to vote you and push you even though I'm townleaning you.
And tbh I'm probably at a point where I need to start throwing out townleans so that probably works anyways.

I'll ask but I think it's as simple as just if lynching Chara and spiff doesn't win the game, scum has to be somebody we all think is town. He seemed confident that Chara or spiff must be scum when he made that post.

[Kmd4390]

He told me ISO Chara and look at his trajectory on mulch and cabd. I did that and the mulch one looks ok-ish. I see his point on cabd though. I posted what I thought about it in the PT and am waiting for his thoughts on it.

[Kmd4390]

how about posting it here instead of running everything by Math first?
you're playing this game, not him.

Ok. I want to check on what is allowed on something first though.

[Kmd4390]

Ok. So Mathdino wanted me to look at Charas trajectory with mulch and cabd. Chara wants to see what I found.
Mulch:
Says he's town. No reason given -> calls him a "mason buddy for life" -> clarifies Mulch and Tora are "masons" -> Transcend is scum for his case on Mulch -> Mulch and Tora lock town -> tells Mulch please stay in the game (I feel like this could be in a scum PT if Chara was scum) and says Transcend acting like Mulch's blow up is scummy is bad -> sees first good reason to scum read Mulch -> Transcend is either scum or scumreading two town because Chara is town and Mulch is obvtown. Same post he's less confident Mulch is town -> Mulch has gone from town to the "leftovers" list -> wants eddie's confidence level on mulch scum -> post 1458 is actually the first real interaction with Mulch. Weird. -> more pressure on Eddie over his scum read on Mulch -> mentions Transcend's case on Mulch then explains why it was bad. This is well after the case itself -> brief interaction with Mulch -> doesn't like eddie going against reasons for mulch to be town -> Mulch is now "townish" on a reads list -> says fuck his mulch read because he misremembered meta, then says he's less sure on mulch -> still has mulch as town. just less sure -> Votes Assemble when he replaces Mulch.

I dunno. He seems to spend too much time focusing on how town Mulch is to be a buddy here. The thought to re-evaluate when he realizes he fucked up meta feels town. The thing that stands out is the Assemble vote though.

Cabd:
Throws some shade on Transcend's cabd vote -> Cabd is scummy, but doesn't want to lynch him yet -> town on reads list -> might be out of town pile, but is still a town read (huh?) -> "townish" in reads list -> "joked" that he got the FN -> Votes Cabd - > Can't believe anyone would think scum would shoot cabd -> Cabd being confirmed town wouldn't be a threat to scum

Ok, there might be something to this. I don't like the waffly town read followed by the hard scum read that apparently we all should have been able to see even though Chara had Cabd as town for most of Day 1.

Overall, his mulch stance doesn't look incriminating but I can definitely see him being scum with cabd.

[Kmd4390]

Cheet:

Cabd's friendly neighbour claim that no one really believed? yes, definitely, scum would nightkill that.

Does this sound like someone who was townreading cabd Day 1? I get that it wasn't a strong town read, but it seems like overnight he went from a weak town read to a scum read and seemed to imply cabd was always obvscum when his read flipped.

[Kmd4390]

I can see that side of it.

[Kmd4390]

Unlikely? Really? Really?

I said nothing looked too incriminating until you voted Assemble.

personally, i feel that since it's entirely possible for town to be wrong and have partner associations with scum, the first favt should trump the second.

even moreso considering Kmd's interactions with flipped scum are even worse than mine, and i feel as though it should know this?

I do agree with this. I don't think your associatives are so strong you have to be town though. You seem to think that with the "unlikely" comment while also acknowledging that's not the case here.

Let me clarify again. Your interactions with Mulch don't absolutely convince me you are scum. The only part I don't like is how you talked more about him than to him and the Assemble vote. The Cabd interactions look much worse. The one thing I noted on both is that at the point you voted it doesn't feel natural. You went from townreading both slots to voting them and both of those changes were sudden and occurred at the time that they were clearly the lynches on those days.

So yes, you make sense as scum with both players, especially cabd. I also understand that there are explanations that make sense with you being town. I get that. I'm not saying I'm fully confident you are scum. You're just a better guess than anyone else. Like after you I'd personally be looking at Implosion, Unabomb, and Spiff. Implosion has satisfied anything I or anyone else has thrown at him. Unabomb is going to depend on his claim. And Spiff I have nothing except no real reason to call him town.

[Kmd4390]

Speaking of Cabd

One thing I wondered about and no one seemed interested in...

Here's how he ended Day 1:

I'm here now, sorry.

Had to totally bomb an interview first~

Does anyone think it's possible this was a crumb that he was considering having scum-Unabomb claim to have received his FN? I can't get this out of the back of my mind.

[Kmd4390]

It gave off a similar vibe to his earlier crumbs though. Whether it would have helped or not doesn't mean more than whether he'd be likely to do it. He was crumbing all along, why stop then?

[Kmd4390]

Or he realized during the night that he was going down that day and shouldn't take his partner with him.

[Kmd4390]

I don't have cheet as scum.

My top three are probably you, unabomb, and implosion.

[Kmd4390]

My favorite thing from the last pages was kmd theorizing that Cabd would've crumbed for me to claim a FN-result

Not crumbed as in he was telling you to claim it. Crumbing his target for everyone else.

in particular this idea that anyone is calling you dumb if you're scum, because nobody is saying that.

Really?

[Kmd4390]

You keep saying "Really?" in a way that makes it really unclear as to what you're trying to say. If you're trying to say scumGinngie would be stupid for faking a guilty at that stage, then I disagree super hard with you?
If Ginngie is scum they had no good moves to make.
Really isn't dumb to fake a guilty and try to play it off as scum given how fucked they would be.
Is clearly much worse for Ginngie to do it as town.

At 11:1, getting in a 1v1 with someone you know is town doesn't seem like the best move to me. As town, sure it still wasn't a good move. But you can understand if Ginngie thought Tora was scum and everyone was townreading Tora, egos can cause people to do things like that.

Everyone take a 24 hour hiatus from game.

I'll be at work in 24 hours. =(

[Kmd4390]

I could lay out why I disagree but I don't really think it matters.

If you plan on lynching Ginngie, it kind of does. If not, then nah.

[Kmd4390]

So we're good then

[Kmd4390]

Aris why aren't you claiming?

[Kmd4390]

I feel like if Mass claiming today is a bad idea, the damage has already been done.

[Kmd4390]

or maybe i'm paranoid that Una is just really good at bullshitting and is making a play here.

I mean. I did see him claim scum once to try getting two scum teams to shoot him and it almost worked. He was so convincing that I could have sworn he was scum in that game before I looked back on in a couple of weeks ago.

_____________

That's not the main thing I was referring to, but I'm not responding to another post about it.

[Kmd4390]

I mean. I did see him claim scum once to try getting two scum teams to shoot him and it almost worked. He was so convincing that I could have sworn he was scum in that game before I looked back on in a couple of weeks ago.

To clarify something: I dislike fakeclaiming as town, but this particular game kmd is referencing, I CLAIMED SCUM IN TWILIGHT AS A TOWNIE, as a last ditch effort To try and give us a chance To win. (multiball, tried to make both scumteams shoot me)

I do not otherwise fakeclaim as town, and if I ever leave crumbs, I mean it.

My point was more that you are capable of being a good bullshitter. I believe you that of you fakeclaim in this game, it means you are probably scum. I dont think you'd do it as town considering that's already been done this game and led to a quickly check on town.

Regardless of any of that my feelings on massclaim right now is that it's hard to tell if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but i personally just want more info to work with. And @Chara, I think you at least somewhat underestimate what setup speculation is capable of. It's very difficult to do well here,

Thats where I am except that it's been discussed enough now that it should just happen.

Preview edit: Spiff for me would be purely PoE. I don't really have a read on him at all.

[Kmd4390]

Also,

V/LA til Friday

I'm working today and tomorrow. Wednesday and Thursday are for my family. I'll check in where I can but otherwise I'm back to normal Friday night after my wife goes to work.

[Kmd4390]

Skimmed to this point.

I'm VT

[Kmd4390]

Or maybe some power role claimed VT to remain hidden

Well, yeah. A doc could do that or an investigative without a useful result could do that.

cum obviously claimed VT here.

All this really means is you think unabomb is obvtown. Why?

___________

I've read through page 159.

[Kmd4390]

Your lack of answer has been noted.

I noticed that too but I'm not sure it means much to be honest.

{cheet, chara}
{kmd, una}
{patrick?}
{aristophanes}
{spiffeh, ginngie, firebringer}

discuss

I'm more like:
{Ginngie}
{Firebringer}
{Aris}
{Cheet, Patrick}
{Spiff, Implosion }
{Unabomb, Chara}

We don't agree on much here.

Chara/Ginngie scumteam, game solved.

Um...

ew

I see what you mean about nulls, but BOTH buddies? I dunno...

I went through basically half the day (before rereading) with Cabd as my only scum read. He had done nothing worth town reading. The friendly neighbor claim brought him UP to null as I already pointed out.

If scum who knew he was going to claim friendly neighbor from PT talk, that sounds like exactly what they'd do though...

Can we just lynch aristophanes?

I don't wanna.

[Kmd4390]

I don't want to Lynch people I think are town just because they "don't deliver". I want to Lynch people I think could be scum.

[Kmd4390]

I just don't buy the meta point that if Aris is town, he'll definitely start doing more and if he doesn't he has to be scum. I just saw him get mislynch Day 1 for not doing anything in this game:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=72907

I'm also not the only one here who saw that happen.

[Kmd4390]

Cheet, Mathdino gave me a reads list with like one-line reasons. I'll paraphrase it but it might be after my v/la ends. After I post it you can let me know what you want more details. I'm already noting his read on you as one thing

[Kmd4390]

I just don't buy the meta point that if Aris is town, he'll definitely start doing more and if he doesn't he has to be scum. I just saw him get mislynch Day 1 for not doing anything in this game:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=72907

I'm also not the only one here who saw that happen.

it's day 4.

That is correct.

[Kmd4390]

I agree with implosion's last post and that's almost my exact logic on why Ginngie is town.

[Kmd4390]

Cheet, Mathdino gave me a reads list with like one-line reasons. I'll paraphrase it but it might be after my v/la ends. After I post it you can let me know what you want more details. I'm already noting his read on you as one thing

Here's that paraphrased one-liner list:

Chara: He's convinced this is scum based on trajectory on Mulch and Cabd

Spiffeh: Says he should have been more helpful so far and there is no reason to town read Spiff but later glances at past vote counts and says this is town

Una: Doesn't like the trajectory on Mulch at all. Feels like this lynch has to happen at some point to get the conversation out of the way.

Cheetory: Noted that Cheet went after Cabd on Day 1 until Assemble came in. Knows Cheet wants a town read, but asks that anyone who has Cheet as obvtown do a town case.

implosion: The case has already been made by other people

Don't lynch:
Ginngie: Bad choice

Patrick: We all know he's obvtown

Aristophanes: At the risk of using a "he wouldn't pick scum" argument, he wouldn't pick scum. If he hasn't done anything by LYLO go ahead and lynch him.

Firebringer: Basically confirmed town but can't say why in the game thread. I asked for the reason for this and it makes sense to me.

[Kmd4390]

To be fair, he said that before you said you'd have issues with it. Also I know you'd never pick scum so I'm townreading you.

[Kmd4390]

Lol no not really. He's town for other reasons.

[Kmd4390]

I mean like, wanting to save the wine from Ginngie and Ari to Lylo is absolutely a good thing.
For a scum to do that is

The contrast of Mathdino saying that I'm a lynch that needs to happen vs saving a slot like Ari/Ginngie to LyLo doesn't make sense.

I understand thinking that on Aris, but Ginngie is just obvtown. Aris is probably town too though. Did you even look at my link? The point that he always does things as town is wrong and that game proved it.

[Kmd4390]

He wants the following clarified:
-the fact that he made that list at daystart
-says not to Lynch unabomb after the claim
-He never had cheet as a scum read.
-I misunderstood him on spiff. VCA only made unabomb his #2 scum pick over spiff but after unabomb's claim he's back to Chara or spiff being scum
-the only issue he had with cheet is that he'd expect scum to avoid voting mulch until assemble replaced in and was obvscum.
-He's at the following list for scum picks in order: Chara, spiff, implosion, cheet, Ginngie, unabomb

[Kmd4390]

Wouldn't it be more "convenient" to have Aris and Ginngie as top scum reads?

i mean, has he seriously still not cased me? have you?

Wasn't it at your request that I posted it?

it feels like your reads have stagnated and you're just repeating Math's. i know you were on v/la but it was like that before, too.

I used his as a starting point today but I posted my reads. They're close to his, sure, but i had next to nothing at daystart and now I like my list I posted like 5 RL days ago.

[Kmd4390]

in that case, i very definitely forgot about whatever case you posted.

i think it's most convenient to have a scumread that won't get lynched that you can keep pushing for the entire game. if i were Math i would be a lot more frustrated about the fact the last scum is pretty much unlynchable, i suppose..?
i don't even though. there are a few reasons it seems fake.

Unlynchable?

Does anyone else feel that way?

[Kmd4390]

in that case, i very definitely forgot about whatever case you posted.

i think it's most convenient to have a scumread that won't get lynched that you can keep pushing for the entire game. if i were Math i would be a lot more frustrated about the fact the last scum is pretty much unlynchable, i suppose..?
i don't even though. there are a few reasons it seems fake.

He's more frustrated that he doesn't want Aris or Ginngie lynched and they are now the most likely lynches. He wants to keep Aris, Patrick, and Firebringer alive and says that's a sure win even if I get lynched at some point and that if that happens everyone needs to remember that town Bloc.

[Kmd4390]

That was my point, not mathdino's. All I was doing was showing that the case that he wouldn't play that way as town is wrong. Mathdino is townreading him because he wouldn't pick scum.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah it's mostly cabd. What about it feels weak to you? And can you talk more about why Chara is town?

[Kmd4390]

Chara just played well as scum in a game I modded (scum sweep actually).

But otherwise.

This is exactly why I'm stuck.

I'm not gonna be able to argue against tone. Or a general meta feel.

And I can buy that you legitimately believe those things. And at the same time they aren't going to change my read.

I can also see your point on the cabd stuff.

So.

Like.

I'm stuck with Chara being my best guess, nothing to tell me otherwise, and no way to argue against anyone's reasons for thinking otherwise.

That's probably where anyone is getting a stagnant feel on my read.

But:
Firebringer- Obvtown
Ginngie- Obvtown
Aris - Town read.
Cheet - His play has looked town
Patrick - I see more town than scum here
Spiff- Hard to say either way, but I don't see any reason to think scum
Implosion - Has answered everything reasonably
Unabomb - The way he approached his claim feels decent
And then there's Chara.

[Kmd4390]

we have 5 days........

So do I sheep you or Aris for my compromise?

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote spiff

Counterwagon

[Kmd4390]

I dunno I just don't think Chara or unabomb can get the support.

[Kmd4390]

Aris wagon is bad. It's on town.

[Kmd4390]

Mathdino was the one that said you could get your way if he's still alive in LYLO. I'd much rather not Lynch firebringer, Ginngie, or Aris ever.

[Kmd4390]

So, he thinks Ari is more or less conftown in his books, but "lol literally lose the game at that point"?

He says as of right now he's a strong town read so give him as much time as he needs but if he reaches LYLO he's playing to his scum meta which would override the town read.

I disagree because I saw Aris get mislynched specifically for playing this way which everyone is ignoring.

[Kmd4390]

Like this:

Also

Spiff is a mirror match up of Girls <3 Girls 2

so also town

It's the exact same game I'm talking about and I think this applies more to Aris than Spiff.

[Kmd4390]

i don't think one game of meta should be considered evidence of anything, personally. in both instances.

It's evidence that the idea that he only plays this way as scum is false.

[Kmd4390]

it's not evidence he's town.
he plays like this more often as scum + nothing so far to show a town process should not equal a townread. at best you could argue he's null.
your example was also from day 1. it's now day 4 and he still hasn't shown what he's promised.

Based on meta, I agree with a null read. Factor in that my team and I don't believe he'd be likely to pick scum and he's a town read. Is there a non-meta reason that says otherwise? Because I don't have one and don't recall seeing one from everyone else.

[Kmd4390]

Is there scum motivation to do that when he's about to be lynched for it? Or do you think scum would be more likely to try to fake it when they have to survive multiple lynches?

[Kmd4390]

So are we lynching a null read then or am I missing something?