TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[Farkran]

Hi everyone, i'm the king of readlists

I don't think gif is powerscumming already so he may be town for now

Early A50 posts are scum standard, don't like them at all

Don't like chennisden introduction

Don't like maria introduction but less so than chen's

Like volxen

I think i like anka reactions

Kuribo is gut town

My neighborhood looks town so far

Everyone else null

VOTE: a50

[Farkran]

am I being pocketed

I got my eye on you

Why am i pocketing you specifically? I mean as opposed to pocketing my every townread

[Farkran]

Why does that have to be the case?

That's my question to you. You went out of your way to say i am pocketing you, but made no mention of my other townreads.

I think town would have either said nothing or ask me why i am townreading them and the other guys rather than instantly fossing me for pocketing.

Why? Do you agree with my other reads so much that you don't need to question them?

[Farkran]

This is my main

[Farkran]

Ok

Honestly I'm mostly fucking around atm, I don't actually believe that

VOTE: ankamius

Reconsidering my previous read after this very weak exchange

@a50 what do you think of anka rn?

[Farkran]

@Maria what do you think of Anka?

[Farkran]

Spoiler: a million flavour signals

Okay.

Moving onto more important topics.

Do we have any single ladies in the house tonight?

I'm a pringle mingle and ready to single

Now put your hands up!

‘Cause if you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it

All the single ladies

(All the single ladies)

You make crumbing look like a baking contest.

This post is observant of you, but it lacks a conclusion statement - do you think deas flavor could be AI, or indicative of anything else relevant? Was it just a note?

[Farkran]

@volpe generally speaking i understand your concerns but surely you must have some thoughts about anka now, if not about him directly, you should have noticed some people revolving around him

From your posts i get that you're trying to give your direction to the game and that is NAI - not being trustful of other players fits either with a paranoid town mindset or a scum looking for a broad lynchpool

Which one are you?

[Farkran]

Personally my opinion of Fark's list is "bad."
Not alignment-indicative. Just bad.
Farkran how confident are you in your scum game?

I like playing scum, won 2 games so far, one of them being the one you recently hostes so you should know more than other players here how i go around as scum

What makes my list bad to you? As in, what reads would you consider wrong and why?

[Farkran]

@volpe generally speaking i understand your concerns but surely you must have some thoughts about anka now, if not about him directly, you should have noticed some people revolving around him

From your posts i get that you're trying to give your direction to the game and that is NAI - not being trustful of other players fits either with a paranoid town mindset or a scum looking for a broad lynchpool

Which one are you?

You've watched me solve that normal 2106 in the dead thread, didn't you?

Do you think you need to ask what kind of player I'm? Do you really have no speculations of your own?

I honestly forgot about you in the normal dead chat, sorry i remember liking your posts but i didn't associate them with your nickname (i.e. in my mind i went like "player x posted stuff i like"). It may be helpful but i cannot form a super specific profile of you based on that only. Spectating is way different than actively playing.

That being said i already offered my interpretation of your posts here, and i want to hear more of your opinions of the current gamestate.

Right now you are mostly dodging questions and/or turning them back at who asked them, which is fine for a while but some answers would also be appreciated

[Farkran]

Also I called it bad purely because it was out of place.

I interpret this opinion as in everyone is currently null to you?

Correct me if i am wrong - i fail to see the need of commenting my readlist if you don't agree nor disagree with it, unless you think i made it up in which case you are currently scumleaning me - again, please tell me where i am wrong, i don't want to put words in your mouth, just voicing my thoughts

[Farkran]

Last post because I'm getting back to work

I did answer you on ank/vex though so I'm not sure what I'm dodging. It may look like I'm dodging since I throw a curve ball back but I think I more or less answered most things?

Anyway I'm just slow to give reads because I like the reads to be grounded, so I'm careful about what I say. I also think that most posts in a mafia game are a bit useless because I get my reads from 2 or 3 posts each person have that in my head I go "This really comes more often than town" or "This comes more often from scum".

I'm mostly looking around and waiting everyone to post enough to find meaningful posts for everyone or something

Sorry, my post was before i read your 140

I'd mostly like to hear your read of anka - or why you aren't interested in their posts given that you said you skimmed them.

I mean, i'm trying to build a profile of people around me because i literally haven't played with anyone in this plist, i just vaguely know some people from minor interactions like gif modding me or you posting stuff in that dead chat

[Farkran]

Also I called it bad purely because it was out of place.

I interpret this opinion as in everyone is currently null to you?

Correct me if i am wrong - i fail to see the need of commenting my readlist if you don't agree nor disagree with it, unless you think i made it up in which case you are currently scumleaning me - again, please tell me where i am wrong, i don't want to put words in your mouth, just voicing my thoughts

UT is scum. That's for sure.

Your readlist is horrible because you declared yourself as a king of readlists and yet you put "gif" and "powerscumming" together but I have tried very hard to drop that bias you see. So with dropping that bias, it rose to "bad."
It's also out of place because it's a first post readlist very early stage. Things like that is usually done by people who wants to be townread, and it should be concerning unless I know that they're the self-conscious type. I called it NAI because both town and scum can do it.

Is this your posting or team's?

[Farkran]

Let's talk more about Espresso. I see some common opinion forming on him that i don't agree with and i'd like to understand why. I'll go into detail in my next posts

[Farkran]

am I being pocketed

I got my eye on you

Ok

Honestly I'm mostly fucking around atm, I don't actually believe that

VOTE: Ankamius

I really dislike the instant backtracking here

This though, this sucks.
VOTE: Espresso Pat
I feel like this is a surface level ready that scum go on. One of those classic 'hey this post looks scummy I can vote it.' Because town normally thinks a bit more about the posts in question. Like, why does scum Ank feel the need to backtrack so suddenly? It's not like Ank is a scared scum player or she needed to take back the read. No one was keeping pressure on her. I think this guy was just trying to find something to cling to.

Do you think espresso jumped opportunistically on the wagon against anka? Does this mean you think Anka's recent exchanges are NAI and this is scum!espresso trying to find scum motivation where you think there isn't any?

More specifically, why do you think Espresso has voted ankamius based on a superficial analysis whereas you don't find Ankamius reactions superficial?

[Farkran]

I'm reasonably confident that the only possible scum on my wagon is espresso

Do you just agree with maria here or do you have your own reasons for believing espresso could be the only scum in your current wagon of {GIF, nom³, fark, espresso}?

[Farkran]

I think EP is actually a really easy lynch and might not be scum at this point

Why do you think espresso is an easy lynch based on what happened so far? He only interacted with 2 or 3 people and is only fossed by maria and anka, with just 1 vote from maria. There's nothing pointing to him being lynchbait at this point

Or is there any meta reason i am not aware of?

[Farkran]

I've ISO dug him and looked specifically for "stuff that sounds like he's doing stuff but won't be dug in too deeply." I came out with pretty much his entire ISO.

-snip-

This is an awful push coming from you. It's superficial, you claim to have read my ISO word by word but apparently you missed that A50 was my very first scumlean (weak, ofc, but i did call him out in my very first post).

Moreover, you twisted the sentence you bolded out thrice - aka your main scumcasing element against me. Turning questions back at who asked them can come from town, so it's fine. You focused on what was convenient for you to cast shade at me. I mean, your whole push is based on the fact that i am towny only on the surface - the correct course of action would have been to delve deep into my reads rather than throw a huge scumcase wall which is based on literally your gut feeling alone.

Although, unsurprisingly, it's still possible to ascribe some scum motivation to this

This in particular feels like you are actively trying to SQUEEZE out scum motivation from my posts instead of deducing it. Like, why would you find scum motivation in me talking about espresso when you were townreading him just moments ago?

Adding this to the line about EP (post 182). Calling him lynchbait at this point in the gamestate without any plausible reason to do so felt way TMI.

Would you please state your read on ankamius, so i can see you taking a solid stance on that? Because for now you've been soft-defending espresso but you've avoided talking about anka's wagon, which is the main reason we're talking about EP in the first place.

[Farkran]

I'm feeling like Farkran atm
Don't like how he came in claiming to be the king of read lists but has only done one so far
VOTE: Farkran

I was just about to post an updated one.

TOWN
Volpe*
nomnomnom*
GIF
Vex vience
Espresso
DeasVail
Elements
Gammagooey
davesaz
Maria

NULL
Volxen
DEB
Flavor Leaf
Kuribo
A50

SCUM
Anka
Chennis*

Starred reads are stronger ones, the rest are weak or in some cases extremely weak. I am kinda puzzled about the recent GIF but he's still fairly high. Analysis of my previous readlist is weird, but it often comes from town. Vote on volpe is weird, didn't understand where that came from, @GIF if you want to enlighten me i'm all ears

I kinda liked elements pop-in, despite voting for me shortly after. Seemed a good way to put the thread back on track after it was slightly falling off, but i'd like him to produce more content on the previous gamestate.

I want to sort Anka and chennis. The latter refusing to take a stance on the currently highest wagon is bad, adding up to all the other reasons i'm scumreading him. I may decide to switch my vote to chennis soon - waiting for some more content from him and anka though.

Everyone else i have already talked about or is weak enough that i don't have much to say about

pedit: uh nice

[Farkran]

I...forgot to exclude farkran as well to be fair (I also hesitant'ing at the moment) but hmm, ok, the day is still young.

VOTE: Fark

Farkran what would you contribute to this masonhood if we were to add you up as well?

Note that we're a secret society therefore an invite means quite a lot. You should think your answer thoroughly.

You can count me in.

[Farkran]

This game also started yesterday, Dave. Pushing me for not coming out of the gate blazing...

Would you like me to come out blazing?

Interested in this

pedit: don't know what that is, the brian skies stuff

[Farkran]

Is this your first year on site or are you older returning?

First year on site, i played 6 games in here. I used to play forum mafia some 8 years ago elsewhere.

Vote on volpe is weird, didn't understand where that came from, @GIF if you want to enlighten me i'm all ears

It was some sort of twisted reference of a past game.

Oh, fair enough then

[Farkran]

Is this really something you do as town?

Yes

[Farkran]

I'm mulling over if it's worth it/I have reasons enough to create a townblock of Elements/me/Fark/Espesso here

I could go in more detail why I think they're town too maybe but hmmm

I feel like I'm jumping the gun a bit.

I was about to ask you to talk about chennis to see if we can meet eye to eye, but he came back before i could. I will still listen to you though. I agree with your other reads and i like your mindset so far.

[Farkran]

Farkran you're either scum or you're town playing in a too careful and tense manner.

If you're town I'd like to work with you. Note I'm not voting you. Instead of trying to fulfill every player's requests and obligations and tensing up, being afraid to offend someone (ingame) you should loosen up.

I do hate offending people - as in actually insulting or disrespecting them. But posting readlists is what i do, and there are plenty of instances in my (short) meta in this site. I don't see any reason why i wouldn't, and i can guarantee i wasn't being submissive to elements' request, it's just part of my playstyle - especially early playstyle.

On the offchance you are actually trying to sort me, take a look at that. And i am still waiting your stance on ankamius, i don't believe you could produce thoughts on espresso but not on her

pedit: about nom, i liked pretty much his every post so far. Nothing scummy, and i am favoring players who try to produce content about the gamestate rather than deviating it.

[Farkran]

I want to sort Anka and chennis. The latter refusing to take a stance on the currently highest wagon is bad, adding up to all the other reasons i'm scumreading him. I may decide to switch my vote to chennis soon - waiting for some more content from him and anka though.

The reason I'm not taking a stance on Ank is because I don't have enough actual content to make a read

Also do you really expect me to really care about who's the biggest wagon at 300 posts

Do you really

Yes, i do. You went out of your way to produce a (unmotivated) stance on espresso who had way less content than anka did, implying you did not agree with Maria (and to a lesser extent Anka) scumleaning the slot, so i find it weird that you had not said a word about Anka herself.

Pedit: i think i have talked plenty about why i am scumreading you in my recent posting. Read on espresso felt TMI, your push on me is awful, and not voting here when you literally screamed i am scum also looks like you're trying to avoid looking bad - note that you didn't ask me or prod me about anything, you just threw a (bad) scumcase towards me.

VOTE: chennis, could be scumpartners with Anka but, slots taken independently, i scumread this more.

[Farkran]

Oh by the way I don't necessarily think Farkran is scum.
I feel like he's getting shit on for his playstyle (I don't actually know his playstyle at all, but based on the patterns I've seen, it looks like one.)
I don't townread him either though.

I don't feel i'm particularly getting shit on though, it's usually much worse. You should ask RC and bitmap

[Farkran]

Oh by the way I don't necessarily think Farkran is scum.
I feel like he's getting shit on for his playstyle (I don't actually know his playstyle at all, but based on the patterns I've seen, it looks like one.)
I don't townread him either though.

I don't feel i'm particularly getting shit on though, it's usually much worse. You should ask RC and bitmap

Or volpe, actually. Now that he reminded me he spectated that normal game, he probably knows better than anyone here.

[Farkran]

RC says you're adorable.

...you made this up

[Farkran]

(3 am here, wished i could talk more as the topic intensified but eh, gonna do that tomorrow)

[Farkran]

17 pages of stuff overnight

Catching up begins

[Farkran]

I apologize in advance for what may be a series of catching up multiposts

[Farkran]

wall

This stuff is... half based on stuff i disagree with, half sounds like misrep, but the effort invested and the POV described may be consistent. I could reconsider chennis if i find more good stuff during the catchup, although the comment on espresso and the push against me are still bad and i don't understand why chennis decided to single out two players to produce such content - i have been attention whoring as usual, which can explain it, but there's plenty more to talk both about me and about other people before doing that kind of wallcase so early in the game. It's hypocritical to shade me for superficiality and producing early reads when that push is basically the exact same thing except worse in content but better in form. You know, like a shitty book with a nice cover.

Moving on for now, might get back at this later

[Farkran]

I don’t know anything about that game, so that doesn’t mean anything to me.

The timing of your Chennis push was perfect to gain support as a town leader, and dominate the rest of the game.

VOTE: Volpe

...town leadership is something very different than what volpe is doing. If volpe had to lead or sheep someone it probably wouldn't be me - i am generally unpleasant when playing, and i can hardly muster enough influence to be valuable as an asset to a town leader. I don't see espresso being a valuable asset either in the current gamestate. Don't know elements enough to say, but all in all i wouldn't describe volpe as trying to lead town.

[Farkran]

It’s Page 14, I think it’s incredibly valuable discussion. Much more than running around in circles with Fakran and Chennis.

I feel right now that you are scum who doesn’t like, or even think there is, a case on them, and granted, I very much realize I need more, and I could be wrong. Again, it’s page 14, but by no means is that not an avenue that I want to just ignore.

Out of all FL posts around that topic, this looks the most scummy. Hard-implies that me and chennis are TvT before there are enough elements to say it is - this is only scum (not scummy, scum) if chennis is also scum though, it makes no sense for scum!FL to try to stop that wagon if chennis is town.

[Farkran]

You’re talking like I have more than one argument.

The only thing I’m pushing you for is the sheer timing of the Chennis wagon, and now it’s a little because of the defensive nature of it.

Actually, if you read past events that lead into this development, why are you calling out volpe but not espresso for doing a similar thing on Anka? I don't scumread either for that reason, but if you are, you should be consistent about it or explain where are the differences

[Farkran]

Eh, yeah, going on reading the volpe vs FL argument is pointless. It's not even AI, you are just discussing playstyles which are subjective by definition and therefore not arguable in a relevant fashion. I am somewhat inclined to think it as TvT until we see a flip though

pedit: ankamius was a more populated wagon but with weaker basis, i'll grant you that. But volpe was 2nd on chennis out of 9 people required for a lynch, i wouldn't call that "steamy" enough yet to call volpe opportunistic for joining it

[Farkran]

I think I've been somewhat transparently trying not to dominate the game by not talking about my reads to not bias other people input on them/hurt general game development.

If I wanted to be town leader I would have not given up in leading discussions and would keep pushing Vex or Fark even if it would bias other people into their reads on those slots

I did the opposite of that.

These two posts are an immense redflag. To me it feels like you read FL's accusations and you decided to argue the one point a scum would argue about.
So much of a red flag I'm going to change my read on your slot.
VOTE: Volpe

Uhm... i'm pretty sure that was one of the main arguments for FL to scumread volpe, so it's fair for the latter to defend about it and pointing out it's a misrep?

[Farkran]

Would you be willing to join Chennis wagon for now?

I'm indecisive about Chennis alignment and I think that would help me out

This is also bad Volpe

No it isn't

I honestly think {Farkran Volpe} has a chance of being scum together

Talk about superficiality... eh, if something_smart was here he would probably townread you out of it. SS deserves much more respect from me after our last game together, i actually want to ask his opinion about you. Who's in team with SS?

PEDIT @FL

1. You only pushed chennis after his wallcase on me and i started commenting on it, if i recall correct. True that you cast FOS on chennis, but even counting that volpe would only be 3rd in line, still not enough to call it steamy and a valid opportunistic move
2. Sounds interesting, i'll try to make my catchup faster

[Farkran]

...oh, FL is in team with SS. Makes sense.

[Farkran]

I don't really think so? If I didn't say anything Farkran is the type of slot that would've gone for a long time unnoticed and not really thought about, which would've been bad regardless of his alignment.

LOL

Ok, chennis is probably town UNVOTE:

Serious stuff: you need to read any of my games. Literally any one of my games on this site.

[Farkran]

Actually, there's also a big difference between not liking and not being on board. I had something like 4 pages to read and another one got posted while I wrote my 2nd post.
I'm gonna take my wife to get ice cream. Hopefully FL has pulled his head out his ass with respect to me before I'm back.

pedit: and another half page writing this one

I just kinda think you’re scum here, tbh. I can’t really explain it yet, but yeah. I do expect you to play in a way to balance my read on you if you are scum, so

You don’t like the push but you’re on board...?

Who’s on PenguinPower’s team? I need him here. You know how many games I went 3 out of 5 of these guys are scum. Idk which 3. And was correct? Idk the relevancy of that, but it popped into my head here.

Oh, right, because people were like, nope don’t like that FL, you’re not right. And i was right.

Uhm... just want to place this in my ISO for the sake of not forgetting it

PEDIT - i like DV's list

[Farkran]

Hey Deas

Hey Deas

What's the worst post in the game so far in your opinion? I don't need an explanation atm but I might bug you about it later when everyone's shown up and posted something meaningfulish

I didn't feel especially passionate about any single post up to this stage, however if I absolutely had to pick one it would be 67.

VOTE: Espresso Patronum

Espresso hasn't made any new posts between these - did you reread and change your mind or is Espresso's iso worse than the sum of its parts in your opinion?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I'm a bit tired from work + board games so I'm gonna just throw some people in kinda dumb categories for now and then probably play switch for a bit and sleep. Also I haven't read all of the flavor leaf+volpe stuff yet, these reads are from like 5pm EST today plus skimming the pages since then and a few quick isos.

some kind of town read

chennis
volpe
nomnomnom

I don't like any of their posts and they have almost none of them

Almost50
volxen

gut scum read atm but not confident in it

davesaz

More likely to be scum than most players that exist atm

Farkran (agree with chennis that his play seems overly cautious and in particular I dislike that Farkran felt the need to remind everyone of their other scumread on anka when changing votes to chennis - to me it feels like inexperienced scum trying to make sure they can't be 'caught' on anything. Also think that what other people said about his playstyle being a factor in why chennis scumread him is reasonable but I don't agree with it.)

I like their play on a personal level despite thinking it's very much in both their town and scum ranges

Ankamius
GuyInFreezer

Oh jesus I started this 15-20 min ago and volpe and flavor leaf are still going

peace for now

Eh... you need to read my games too. I've seen this movie too many times. What are your reasons to townread chennis, volpe and nom, and why is davesaz scum?

I mean, compared to chennis who made a independent push on me, this looks like sheeping the recent consensus.

[Farkran]

Me and Volpe are sharing a PT together, with a third person. In that thread he suggested the idea that he intentionally shook up his meta in order to beat "meta players" present in the event. So your whole defense about "how I should recognize your scumgame" is completely bullshit.

Secondly, in that thread, you actually do display emotional manipulation. To summarize the whole thing Volpe plays the "I don't want to play this game anymore" card in the thread after the discussion that ensued there, which I will not talk about. You did this very same thing in C9++, shall I note, although again I want to trust the words you said back then about that thing not being alignment indicative, but this is what you stated as defense.

It's probably not smart to use a defense that can be disproven by your own words. You talk a bit too much.

Oh. This is news. I don't agree with your reasoning in the main thread, but since you outed it you may as well out what happened in your neighborhood too.

[Farkran]

I have a very strong mistrust of that Elements town read, which seems completely unwarranted especially given the ratio of Elements posting of real content to a dozen others. That may or may not result in an independent scumread there regardless of what your thing yields.

That townread of elements did look very high to me too, but i overlooked it because i townread volpe quite high and i kinda liked elements posts too. I imagined they could be neighbors or something, but now i don't think elements is the third member of volpe+nom though, so... uhm.

Is volpe a player adept at pocketing people? I wouldn't describe him like that, he fits more with a tunneler, soft paranoid profile. @Volpe is there a meta reason why you're townreading elements?

[Farkran]

It does look generic and nonsensical, but that's exactly why I think it's kinda positive. Elements is the kind of scum player that would try to look like he's doing stuff, solving the game, etc. However since he's lynched quite a lot, I thought about the possibility of him being scum and not wanting to spill the beans. However, that vote on me really doesn't make sense in that case in my opinion.

In that moment, not even you had expressed any kind of doubt on me and I had the most town leans/positive feedback in-thread I think, therefore he's like, drawing attention to himself in a push he can hardly justify (and it was a naked vote, rather than him trying to give any sort of reason for it).

Makes sense for a townlean, not for a strong townread, but i get that your list is early made. I did like that about elements too.

[Farkran]

Btw I think Gammagooey is a pretty towny slot

"guy agrees with me"

"i townread guy"

Yeah. Chennis is town, confident in that. I suggest to be less superficial and emotional about your reads, though.

Before you call me out for posting superficial readlists as well, you should notice the difference in pushing hard reads (what you have been doing) as opposed to taking notes and outing my thoughts in the thread (what i have been doing in my lists). It's a significant playstyle difference, obviously i think my way is better and probably you think yours is, but if we are to meet eye to eye we gotta understand how our minds work.

[Farkran]

This post is fucking bullshit.
I'm that third person in that hood by the way.

VOTE: omnomnom

Uh.

What the f happened in your neighborhood?

[Farkran]

and I'm not convinced people haven't been scumreading farkran because of playstyle

Do you mean A. more people should have scumread me for playstyle, or B. you believe scum are refraining from scumreading me and justifying their TMI with my playstyle?

These are not mutually exclusive options, but option B implies everyone who's not scumreading me has higher scum equity whereas A does not.

[Farkran]

@Farkran: Do I know you by any other name?

I am a main and i have no alts

[Farkran]

@a50 what do you think of anka rn?

Why Ank in particular? And why ask

ME

about her (and in page 4???)

Eh, i explained it later. Didn't like your introduction, then anka did scummy stuff, so i asked my other SR what they would think. Yours was the weakest read, mostly useful to advance gamestate rather than pushing a lynch. I wanted to pull some content out of you. And i still want, so if you are so kind to post a detailed opinion on the current gamestate i'll be happy

[Farkran]

I'm fully caught up.

So here's where i am at:

- I townread

davesaz

for trying to sort FL vs volpe in an obvtown fashion

- I still townread

GIF

for... basically all his posts. The only scum motivation i could see in there would be RC coaching him to pocket me and i wouldn't believe that in a million years

- I still townread

volpe

, there's nothing scummy coming from him - at all

- I townlean

chennis

for being emotionally superficial but internally consistent (he doesn't know me -> it makes sense to read my playstyle like he did), this very often comes from town. I noticed that you are in team with pops. Ask pops about me, right after you read at least one of my other games.

- Liked

elements

for reasons i have already stated in recent posts.

- I am not convinced that his push comes from scum, so i'd say i am still townleaning

nomnom

, name in yellow because it is no longer a strong read. That push on volpe is bad in a vacuum, but i don't see how scum!nom pulls that unless FL is scum, so... i am waiting for a flip before i bite here

- I am slightly concerned about

Maria

for disappearing after that espresso read. Need more content from there, it looks like a veteran slot, reminds me of Micc. Internal consistency and good logic are more NAI here than elsewhere. Inclined to townlean her though.

- I am neutral on

vex vience

. Tone is town, but i am concerned that he is only talking about fashion of the moment people, and only after someone else talked about them. More independent reads would be appreciated.

- Scumleaning

Gammagooey

for his readlist and timing. Need more content though.

- Still scumleaning

Anka

. Her reads are... mixedly weird, like, why is she hard townreading me now? Also waving at her wagon and dishing out that potential scum!espresso read might be a scumtell. To be more clear, her reads look like made up on purpose. I feel like she is pushing reads "statistically" rather than deducing or scumhunting. It's an easier way to produce reads as scum.

- I am now scumreading

Flavor Leaf

. His ISO and progression are bad. He wants credit for things he did not start (fossing chennis), then he retracts that and asspulls a scumread on volpe for voting him. It's similar to nom's push, but it seems driven rather than independently thought up like nom did, also timing is bad - could understand it as a reaction test but going on a 1v1 for 3 pages is not a RT. He entered a death tunnel on volpe for no reason at all, then once he realized he was on the losing side he backed out. FL/nom might be a team but FL is always the first flip here. FL/Anka might be a team too. Also i don't like the push on davesaz.

Other people are now too weak reads compared to these ones. In conclusion, i think there is at least 1 scum in {Nom, Anka, Flavor}. I find it hard to believe scum is doing nothing in this gamestate, so at least one powerwolf-y element is plausible.

VOTE: Flavor Leaf for now.

[Farkran]

do you want me to go into why I'm townreading you?

Yes

[Farkran]

once he [FLAVOR LEAF] realized he was on the losing side he backed out.

speaking of which, where exactly in the thread is this?

Post 596 and following. I don't believe that is a pure reconsideration without turning to someone else. I read Flavor Leaf as someone who takes hard stances and does not back off a stance without assuming a different one - voting nom, or me, would have been consistent with his progression thus far but he didn't. He just backed off and turned to AtE. I'm waiting for him to come up with more content when he has slept on it or something, but atm i think he's my highest scumread.

On a side note, your analysis of my posts makes sense, but stuff happened around you is still concerning and i'd like to hear a full readlist from you.

[Farkran]

I'm either hard pocketed by Fark/GiF by this moment or I've just found some mason partners for this game.

We're all in synch too which is nice.

It's a cool pocket if it's one, I'm sliding deep on it.

...i'm feeling the same way, but i'm more confident on it given that i absolutely don't read any of you as the pocketing type. And, well, you read at least one of my games, i don't even need to explain myself

[Farkran]

Ankamius - cancel food

Dr Easy Bake - The Maurauders

Flavor Leaf - Wild Cards

davesaz - Busboy Revolution

chennisden - Quick Attack

Vex Vience - Doomsday
Volxen - Derp Wolves

MariaR - Ripple's Krazy Mistress Dunn

Gammagooey - Old Hat
DeasVail - The Lit Torches
kuribo - The Four Horsement

GuyInFreezer - Bird That Carries You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap

Elements - Team "Team" Team

Volpe14 - Tea Gathering Club

EspressoPatronum - Newb Kids on the Block

Almost50 - You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap

Farkran - DFKN

nomnomnom - SubOptimal Math

Eh, aside from your bright green, every other green looks the same.

I take it that espresso is your highest (and only) scumread right now? And is maria green just because of that, or is there anything else?

[Farkran]

Post 596 and following. I don't believe that is a pure reconsideration without turning to someone else. I read Flavor Leaf as someone who takes hard stances and does not back off a stance without assuming a different one - voting nom, or me, would have been consistent with his progression thus far but he didn't. He just backed off and turned to AtE. I'm waiting for him to come up with more content when he has slept on it or something, but atm i think he's my highest scumread.

unless he's specifically pocketing me, I don't think scum!FL ever does that

What does scum!FL do, in your opinon?

[Farkran]

Why, is it the playerlist that gave you the conclusion that something would happen?

well to be honest I expected someone at some point to comment on the whole hood fiasco and nobody did. In my mind I assumed that scums would gladly avoid the whole discussion unless if they could use that as a sort of accusation point but that didn't happen either. Maybe I was just mistaken about how town would approach this whole thing but the fact nobody gave an analysis on it is quite perplexing to me.

Can you say, in detail, what was going on in your neighborhood that we DON'T KNOW yet in the main thread, to help us elaborate your reads? Because honestly i can't see volpe as scum rn, i can't see GIF as scum either, if there had to be scum in your nb it would be you now and i'm sure you would disagree, so... what's exactly wrong with that? I mean, this post seems to imply that there IS something wrong going on in your neighborhood but i can't see it.

[Farkran]

I'm fully caught up.

So here's where i am at:

- I townread

davesaz

for trying to sort FL vs volpe in an obvtown fashion
...
- I am slightly concerned about

Maria

for disappearing after that espresso read. Need more content from there, it looks like a veteran slot, reminds me of Micc. Internal consistency and good logic are more NAI here than elsewhere. Inclined to townlean her though.
...
- Scumleaning

Gammagooey

for his readlist and timing. Need more content though.

Hey Fark, can you try to describe what about dave's posts on volpe & FL are obvtown to you? I agree that volpe's read on Elements was a generally good thing for dave to look into, but the tone of dave's posts around there feels more commentaryish to me than investigative to me personally, and I think that type of content can pretty easily come from scum as well.

I also think I get where you could be coming from in regards to Maria and I not being around at particular points in the game, but I want you to think about that for a second for me. Do you think it's particularly likely that either of us are limiting our posting specifically in a way that scum are likely to do this early?

For myself I can promise you that I wouldn't want to deal with the volpe/FL clusterfuck before bed (and in fact still would prefer not to deal with it because I think a lot of FL's posts are likely posting for the sake of his own amusement/ego in that big ol' section and I doubt I'll be able to interpret anything useful out of his posts there) as either alignment, and people 'disappearing' (which I'm taking to mean posting once or twice in a discussion and then bailing) in general in a game this big is a lot more likely to be 'the person had real life shit they wanted/needed to do' or just didn't feel like dealing with the game at the time than scum-motivated hiding from the thread.

WRT Dave: post 538 and 538 strongly look coming from a town mindset trying to sort out the 1v1 of the two guys involved. Not immediately taking any hard stance and pointing out fallacies in both premises almost never comes from scum, which imo would basically try to determine who's on the losing wagon and side with the winning part, or completely stay out of it for towncred.

WRT Maria: it's not just about limiting post quantity, but what you choose to post when actually posting. Going out of your way to say something about a specific player is relevantly AI. I don't know how at this point in time - it might be town!maria trying to put weight on the interactions engine, or scum!maria trying to look busy with the (supposedly) little time she has. The read is not strong though, as i said, i'd like a lot more content coming from there.

WRT you: same as above, you went out of your way and made a specific tier about me being scum, without having any context to base your read on. You can't expect to form hard reads like that and not getting asked to back them up. I mean, your push would be understandable in a vacuum -as i said, i've seen this movie so many times now- but the timing and confidence levels do not feel right. Your analysis of me is very similar to what chennis said and has the same information fallacy (you should really read one of my games. Any game. And not even the full game, take any random ~10 posts in my ISO to see what i mean) - incidentally, chennis was also your highest townread. Same as i said about dave, a town mindset would try to sort the 1v1 before taking super hard stances about players involved. Scum would pocket one side and sink the other, which is exactly what you did there.

You can talk to me about why this post is wrong, if you think it is. I'd like to hear more from you and your other reads, mainly how you are townreading chennis so hard and why FL does not make an appearance in your readlist despite being one of the most active influences here

[Farkran]

Why, is it the playerlist that gave you the conclusion that something would happen?

well to be honest I expected someone at some point to comment on the whole hood fiasco and nobody did. In my mind I assumed that scums would gladly avoid the whole discussion unless if they could use that as a sort of accusation point but that didn't happen either. Maybe I was just mistaken about how town would approach this whole thing but the fact nobody gave an analysis on it is quite perplexing to me.

Can you say, in detail, what was going on in your neighborhood that we DON'T KNOW yet in the main thread, to help us elaborate your reads? Because honestly i can't see volpe as scum rn, i can't see GIF as scum either, if there had to be scum in your nb it would be you now and i'm sure you would disagree, so... what's exactly wrong with that? I mean, this post seems to imply that there IS something wrong going on in your neighborhood but i can't see it.

You misread what I said.

What I said is that I expected someone to make comments about GIF outing himself as the third person in our neighborhood but nobody did.
I frankly don't want to elaborate about what's in the neighborhood because it would be leaking even more information than necessary and if it's the case than the 3 of us are town in this hood then leaking more is disastrous.

There's a reason why I've been focusing on trying to sort GIF and Volpe as main objective, you know.

Ok then, but... from your POV, why would anyone call out GIF for being dumb? It's not scummy, it's just dumb as either alignment, and not talking about it would be the better choice. Scum!GIF would out his neighborhood in the scum PT, not in the main thread.

[Farkran]

I'm starting to buy scum!nom too. I'll have my team do a reality check on his ISO, i feel too much involved with FL to make proper judgement

[Farkran]

VOTE: Farkran
die scum

Eh... no. But a scumcase from you would be nice.

[Farkran]

No one needs to gauge interest in your lynch when you're such a popular scum read...

Yet no one is actually voting me. Doesn't that strike you as strange? Because honestly it really is if you think about it two seconds.
Nobody is voting me because scums are waiting to jump on my wagon when it starts picking up steam and they go "yeah let's go there why not". What I'm accusing Fark of doing is this exact thing. I don't need to jump through his nonsense walls to tell you that this very thing is scummy.

I could go into detail about this, but that's not what your detractors have been doing so far. None of them, really - especially considering that there are only, like... three? There is no strong consensus about scum now, so your reasoning is very premature. Why did you single me out, though? What are the differences between me and, say, volpe, from your POV?

Also my team is MIA. Fuck timezones.

[Farkran]

Hate to say this, but a complete and utter denial of reality seems very town indicative for this game

Sad but true. That's the main reason i'm townreading you in this game. It's even beyond the level of too scum to be scum, it's on a "we are literally playing different games" level.

Not in the same way Anka said though, i think that's explainable by activity levels mostly.

[Farkran]

so how big is the townblock now?

have we hit half the plist yet?

I assume you're talking about 800? That's exactly half of the player list. I don't fully agree with that, but you may have redeeming qualities and i feel like we could use talking about something that isn't nom or FL right now. Let's talk about gammagooey. What do you think about him?

[Farkran]

seems ok I guess

"ok" as in you are reading that as town, or you have nothing relevant to highlight in his ISO? Doesn't look like he's part of your green block, that's why i wanted to talk more about him

[Farkran]

With regards to the first point with Maria - I was talking about your concern with her for disappearing - I don't really get what you mean with her going out of her way to say something about a specific player (I'm assuming you mean her comments on espresso?). Like from my POV regardless of her alignment she thinks that espresso did something scummy and wants to call attention to it, either she's town and wants to call attention to it because it's likely to be coming from scum or she's scum and wants to point people at a player she thinks can be pushed as a mislynch (or as a distancing but that seems a lot less likely to me). I'm more asking you to re-evaluate *is someone 'disappearing'* actually alignment-relevant at all, esp. compared to what people actually do with their posts while they're around?

Yes, i meant her comment about espresso. It's ok if she wants to say something on espresso - i don't even disagree with that particular post of maria - but there were other topics at hand while maria was present. My concern mostly refers to her specific selection of what to post, rather than the content of her posts. "disappearing" is perhaps too strong of a word in this context, but my point was to highlight a specific choice of content posted by maria. Just as chennis pointed out espresso for being an "easy lynch" without any basis, i don't think scum!maria would push that "easy lynch"... because it was no easy lynch at all. So, i am much more inclined to believe that would be town!maria highlighting something scummy, or scum!maria trying to imitate townplay without putting too much effort into it. Basically i'm just asking for more content from maria, this is not a strong read at all, and if anything it's more leaning towards town than scum.

In regards to me - I don't hold my own reads in very high regard this early in the game, but at the time if I had to ignore the uber-lurkers and immediately shoot someone in the face to try to get scum it'd probably be either you or dave, and that seemed worth mentioning so people can at least attempt to read me (cause let's be real I haven't actually done much in-game aside from that and today's posts so far). I have read over some pieces of your previous games this morning and it does makes me feel a little better about you but I don't think it makes you likely town, just a little less likely to be scum than I thought before.

Chennis's push on you felt pretty genuine and well thought out and I agree with his reasoning on why you'd be likely scum here - I don't think scum make a case like that this early and push it that hard in what seemed like a genuine attempt to push and lynch scum.

I am interpreting this as "i wanted to post a very weak readlist", then. Which is something i do and like, so it's all fine. What i didn't particularly like, and i still don't, is that you placed chennis and me at diametrically opposite sides just because you (claimed to) agree with chennis. Yours is not an independent read, and i saw no effort of producing any in that list. If me and chennis are TvT, and i now think we are, your list placements looked like a choice of pocketing vs sinking, which usually comes from a scum mindset.

You too may have redeeming qualities though, so can you talk to me about daves, with actual links to his scummy posts and your reasoning about why they are scummy?

[Farkran]

@Kuribo do you have DeasVail as high town? Why? I don't disagree but i'd like to hear your POV on him

@Gammagoey i almost forgot i asked you for a FL read too, that's a quite important bit missing from your readlist.

[Farkran]

Glad we got some content of maria which looks of value so far.

Maria/A50/gammagoey/anyone else, can you talk more about daves? I notice that he is building up wagon potential, but i fail to see why. Can you read first paragraph of 834 and tell me why i am wrong? So far it looks like all your daves reads are gutbased, but when more than 4 people are gut-scumreading someone that i don't, i get the feeling i am either missing something or dealing with scum.

[Farkran]

Also @daves i probably want to approach this from the opposite side as well. Would you post a readlist for me?

pedit: yeah, i have my fun tryharding forum mafia games, and i do that as both alignments. My job allows me to invest time in here, and i have a passion for social deduction games even in the form of tabletops, such as The Resistance et cetera, which FMs are a beautiful extension and improvement of.

[Farkran]

@FL why did you jump from FoS on chenn to a hard attack on someone who voted him?

This is a generic post. I don't see anything of value in it. Although I assume the 'value' you're talking about Fark is the timing.

For someone who reacted really strongly to being voted by FL, I'm surprised that the primary reason for a townread would be someone who naked voted you. Maybe that's an oversimplification, but it's the type of thing that catches my eye. Have you played with Elements as both alignments?

We look at this and basically what Dave is doing is poking holes in their logic. It’s a valid question, but my main question is why does this come from town over scum?

Not immediately taking any hard stance and pointing out fallacies in both premises almost never comes from scum, which imo would basically try to determine who's on the losing wagon and side with the winning part, or completely stay out of it for towncred.

You give this reasoning, but all of this to me is ‘scum is unlikely to do this’ and you give surface-level basic mafia 101 reasoning why. Like, you stated that mafia wouldn’t do this and gave a very basic reason why. If we’re using that for team mafia of all things where I like to assume most of the players have brains then this just doesn’t work for me.

What makes you think my dave read is gut by the way? How did you get that impression?

I'll answer your last line first: after reading your spoiler commentary and followups, i didn't notice any solid ground to call daves your highest scumread. There might be value in your first comment about dave in your spoiler #1 - i overlooked that sentence you bolded, but now that i focused on it i don't find it inherently scummy. Why do you? Rest of the content in the spoilers makes little mention of daves, so i interpreted it as mostly a gut-based read, with elements of personal bias.

As for why i am townreading him instead, why do you find it surface-level and therefore less AI than i think it is? I mean sure, players have brains, they can and must come up with strategies to be townread if they roll scum, but i don't believe what daves did is something that immediately comes up when posting with a scum mindset. At the very least that's not what i would do, and what i have seen from scum in my experience. Questioning people before taking hard stances takes effort by itself, and faking it from a POV where all the players you're talking about are green (because as scum you would know they are) is way above the average scum behavior and will to effort. Scumreading daves for that means entering the world of deepwolves, so my first question is: do you know daves for being a proficient deepwolf? Second question would be: why do you feel fine validating what is bad town play by the manual (the earlier chennis and gammagoey), but punishing what would be good town play (daves)?

I do agree that daves could produce more content though.

pedit: the forum mocks me. "at least one new post has been made while you were typing" = literally more than 20

[Farkran]

My team's reads mixed with some observations from skimming:

- why is Volpe townreading me so much?
- Elements is on par with his town game
- Ank's scumread on me is low hanging fruit. Maybe Ank is doing a slayer's play? The full town reads list with only me as scum is weird.
- if Volpe!scum, FL shouldn't get a free pass

...why do even you think of yourself as easy lynchbait? Are you famous for always rolling scum or something? Because i really see no indication of you being a low hanging fruit or lynchbait so far

Also do you think that volpe and FL would put THAT much effort into distancing? I could see FL doing that, hardly volpe, based on the profile i've drawn of the two slots. I made peace with them never being in the same scumteam.

[Farkran]

i overlooked that sentence you bolded, but now that i focused on it i don't find it inherently scummy. Why do you?

I feel like it completely negates his statement before so I'm just confused on why he made it because I feel like I must've read it wrong.

How does it negate his statement before? I read it as separating what could be a scumtell from one player and a towntell from other players. Different profiles can react diffently when put in a identical context. It's not a trait that i would townread daves for, but i wouldn't scumread him out of it either. It's reachy.

Scumreading daves for that means entering the world of deepwolves, so my first question is: do you know daves for being a proficient deepwolf?

I just, disagree. As someone who is known for having above avg scumplay I think the way we're looking for scum or maybe at scum is two different ways. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. But, I feel like you're looking for basic things. You talk about how this takes 'effort' this is team mafia if there's ever a game people are gonna put the effort in it's this one. I'm trying to read actions and mindsets of players where I see you going on a more simple path. Not that this is wrong per se, but what I'm trying to say is I think I find stuff scummy you wouldn't. Because 'deep wolf' isn't a term I would use because it isn't relevant to the topic at hand. Effort doesn't=deep wolf in my eyes.

It's probably true that we have different scumhunting strategies, and that comes in a NAI fashion so far. I think you would agree though that there are multiple "degrees" of scum play, like you mentioned - perhaps you being a more experienced scum player makes you biased towards a deeper level than me, but i wouldn't call myself a surface reader. Given that i have been called out for it by 3 players now, i guess that statement could hold some truth, although i still don't see how and in particular i can't see how my analysis is more superficial than what chennis or gammagoey did, for instance. I mean, walls aren't inherently townier than short posts, nor is a wallcase particularly hard to fake - it's long and tedious, but not particularly hard. I find it harder to put up a fake town mindset in trying to sort people, rather than biasing yourself towards looking for potential mislynches. The latter is what i was seeing in chennis post, whereas daves' rang true.

Also for the sake of clarity, i use the term "deepwolf" quite literally, referring to a player who is able to put up a very towny facade while suppressing scum motivation, therefore placing his own truth in a "deeper" level. Players fitting this profile are more inclined to bus their partners and using logical thoughts to fuel their progression as opposed to build counterwagons to save their team. Not sure if that's the correct word to use, but that's not the point - i just can't find that scum motivation coming from daves posts.

Second question would be: why do you feel fine validating what is bad town play by the manual (the earlier chennis and gammagoey), but punishing what would be good town play (daves)?

I don't think this exists. But, can you quote what exactly you're talking about?

Stil referring to daves' questioning of volpe vs FL compared to chennis huge wallcase and gammagoeey agreeing with him - taking hard, serious stances like that is bad. Both slots have explained themselves later, so we can move on from that. I think i gathered everything i could from your daves read. Passing the ball to other people, might get back to you later when i am done sorting my current lynchpool

[Farkran]

um. no shit sherlock? he's got 3 posts that say nothing game-related. of course nobody has a read on him yet. if it was a real life week into the game then yeah that'd be shitty but we're two days in and two people spamposted for 13 pages in a day. also technically Deas mentioned him but it's probably after where you had read up to at the time.

Do you know DEB? No? Then SHUT UP, and let me do my play.

Note: If DEB flips red gooey is 95% his partner. I'm shitting you NOT. Eventually, gooey's even going to BUS the shit out of DEB if they're scum together, so DO NOT FALL FOR IT.

I would scumread maria, if she had someone i know in her team - that would give her a reason to remove me, but she has none, so this point is moot.

For people who don't understand why i am saying this, i mean, why *i* am the one who get called out for superficiality when there are people who literally make scum associatives out of one post where one guy WKs the other? I could say i don't like all of these instances, but actually this push from A50 makes sense and i don't see scum intent in there, whereas i do see some in gammagooey commenting it. Not particularly in this soft-defense of DEB, which however does look like part of his nonsense shading process against A50, but in his posts and progression as a whole.

Like, Gammagoeey's got a tunnel on A50 ever since his 23, which looked like RVS but now he's somehow justifying it. Then he agrees with chennis vs me without making the slightest effort to back it up with his own head, dodges/prodges questions and gamestate milestones repeatedly (still waiting on that read of FL and the whole volpe/nom/GIF situation, for the record), and again backs up chennis against daves for... no reason at all, except townreading chennis himself.

Why do you automatically assume that a townread of yours has inherently better reads than you could produce? Do you have thoughts of your own?

I think this only comes from being in the same neighborhood as chennis (in which case i'd like to hear what is going on there, because there's obviously something wrong from your POV) or from gooey being in a scum pt, not necessarily with chennis but with someone who might be threatened by me and/or dave (possibly FL?)

VOTE: Gammagooey

I'm quite happy with this vote, and there are a couple specific players i'm expecting to react to this.

[Farkran]

Hi teacher! I've been missing you! Let's play together again sometimes.

Aside from that, i am with A50 on that wall, got the same feelings from gammagoey, and saw no reason why they would be justified.

I haven't forgot about nom or FL though, haven't changed my read about them, and i'd actually like to hear their opinion on gamma and vice-versa

[Farkran]

Gammagoey has improved in his latest couple posts, i'm willing to let this go for now, also because there are more pressing matters to discuss.

I have finally received a review on nom's slot from my team, verdict is scum. In particular we have been discussing about 581, which we agreed that never comes from a town mindset. i.e. why are you upset that your neighborhood is outed when you believe there's scum in it? If there were, it's obvious that it had been outed immediately in the scum PT. Given that nom was scumreading volpe first and was willing to investigate GIF after he finally confirmed the hood, it seems that both pushes come from a scum agenda rather than a deduction from the two slots' play. Getting rid of the player in team with RC is motive enough to have an agenda against him (sorry GIF, but this is a burden you have to carry regardless of whether you are a good player without RC or not); less so about volpe, but the general feeling is that either nom wanted to get rid of the one of the most (now uniquely the most) active players or that he wasn't interested in volpe at all and that vote was just bait for the town.

TL;DR
1. Nom's burst of rage about his hood being outed is NOT consistent with him scumreading either of his hoodmates for it. Outing the hood might be dumb, but absolutely NAI or perhaps even slightly townpoints for dumbness.
2. Even if that burst of rage was naively genuine, post 617 implies that he has been townreading them up to that point. There's no way -from a coolheaded POV- you would think your hood would be protected if there is scum in it.

VOTE: nom we have him as pretty much confirmed scum.

Don't know yet where a nom redflip leaves FL, but it might be redeeming for Ank and pretty much conftowns the rest of nom's hood.

[Farkran]

Can we get a VC? I'm pretty sure nom only has 3 votes from GIF, elements and me now, and i didn't even read elements vote because i was writing my post in the meanwhile.

This is hardly "jumping on someone's wagon". Nom is just scum.

[Farkran]

Can we get a VC? I'm pretty sure nom only has 3 votes from GIF, elements and me now, and i didn't even read elements vote because i was writing my post in the meanwhile.

This is hardly "jumping on someone's wagon". Nom is just scum.

Your reason for voting me is hilariously stupid because you're trying to get logic out of an emotional moment which is one of the biggest fallacy in mafia.
Get a grip.

Yeah

Read point 2 of my post where i vote you

[Farkran]

I don't want to talk about my hood anymore only thinking about all of this makes me angry

because of the effort I put in to make sure our hood wasn't outed

but I guess bumbling not thinking idiot cannot read a PT and decides to lose his shit over a vote I pondered for a while.

I mean are you telling me it never once occurred to you that if there is scum in your hood, your so called effort to not out it in the main thread is completely and utterly useless? This post is lamisty and a bad display of TMI about your hoodmates.

[Farkran]

I don't want to talk about my hood anymore only thinking about all of this makes me angry

because of the effort I put in to make sure our hood wasn't outed

but I guess bumbling not thinking idiot cannot read a PT and decides to lose his shit over a vote I pondered for a while.

I mean are you telling me it never once occurred to you that if there is scum in your hood, your so called effort to not out it in the main thread is completely and utterly useless? This post is lamisty and a bad display of TMI about your hoodmates.

In the case we're all town this is disastrous to do and since I don't know for sure the alignments of my 2 other neighbors then I just assume the worst scenario.

your case is honestly pretty bad and if you want to scumread me you might as well re-read my iso and base it on something that isn't 1 dollar armchair psychology

If you assume the worst scenario you wouldn't "put effort" in protecting the identity of your hood, you would just not out it and hope they aren't scum - or at the very least you wouldn't get angry when it gets outed

right after you scumread one of them

.

Sorry, no. This does not make any sense, and it's not like i would expect scum!you to consider my case against you any good, you know

[Farkran]

If you assume the worst scenario you wouldn't "put effort" in protecting the identity of your hood, you would just not out it and hope they aren't scum - or at the very least you wouldn't get angry when it gets outed right after you scumread one of them.

Sorry, no. This does not make any sense, and it's not like i would expect scum!you to consider my case against you any good, you know

You probably should stop the $1 armchair psychology sessions it'll make you look stupid more than once.

Even if I had a red role PM this game that reasoning is honestly atrocious.
You don't know me, you've never played with me, you don't know me as a person, we've never talked and we've never had a discussion about the game. Why do you think you're qualified to judge me psychologically and emotionally? Just stop. It's honestly very stupid.

You are failing to understand that this is nothing about psychological analysis

This is very simple LOGICAL analysis of a scumslip that you made. Emotion, or my lack of knowledge of your psychological profile have literally nothing to do with this, i don't even know why you're basing your defense on that. If you have anything relevant to add, feel free to, otherwise i'm done getting called stupid by scum. Other people are talking and keeping up this argument is pointless.

[Farkran]

you can't read nom3 logically

I'm pretty certain that is literally impossible

I'm not going to base my gamesolve on gutreads of people by validating their scummy mindsets and i'm kinda surprised everyone would.

Like, i don't even get the paranoia about people jumping on nom's wagon. She has 3 votes. Out of 10 required. You (@anka) have been the highest wagon earlier and you became the highest wagon again just moments before my vote against nom. If there is paranoia to be had about someone, it would be in your favor - not that i would get paranoid over a L-6 wagon or even think about going out of my way to call it an easy lynchbait.

Nom just scumslipped about his hood, plain and simple.

[Farkran]

Nom just scumslipped about his hood, plain and simple.

I don't like this but I can see still coming from town!Fark.

I still don't like this.

I don't get the paranoia feeling, but i think i can reason with you. Talk to me about what you don't like about it. I waited for a reality check from my team before assaulting nom slot specifically because i didn't want to enter what i knew would be an endless death tunnel for misinterpreting what were my feelings about nom.

Every member of my team said that nom is scum both individually and because of that hood situation alone. None of us know her, but why would it matter?

This is also @anka. There are plenty of people who are readable by emotion, i've correctly townread people out of their emotional genuineness in the past, so i'm not ignoring your argument. However, how would you explain that nom post though? I mean, there's no towny explanation that comes to my mind as for putting effort in protecting your hood from being outed and getting angry about it after scumreading one of them. It's beyond emotionality. If we validate scummy play because of emotional gutreads and paranoia when a player is at L-7, scumhunting becomes pointless.

Pedit: every time i try to post, there are 20 more posts appearing that i am not reading, i will catchup all of those when this argument cools down

[Farkran]

The fact that early I think Fark was toning more down on Nomnom thing on the hood and that now he is like "this is a scumslip" makes my blood freeze.

I never toned down actually, i was just taking time to discern whether that read of nom was just me deathtunneling on a stupid detail or if it held any relevant value to a gamesolve, that's why i asked for a reality check from my team. I tried going down outer routes in the meanwhile, but i never backed off of nom ever since my 848. I didn't notice the logical fallacy before my 835, if that helps understanding where i come from.

Now i kinda feel i've tunneled again, but the fact that it's not just me, but also from people i can safely trust, makes me feel more confident on that.

[Farkran]

2. Even if that burst of rage was naively genuine, post 617 implies that he has been townreading them up to that point. There's no way -from a coolheaded POV- you would think your hood would be protected if there is scum in it.

I disagree with this - I won't get into a huge amount of detail in case you want to hear more from nom but her playing as if her neighborhood is all town even if she suspects it's not doesn't really have a downside if she's wrong as far as I can tell, and I don't see why your 2nd point implies townreads rather than just frustration at having that attempt at playing that way ruined by GIF outing the neighborhood.

This is not the point. Not outing the neighborhood is always the optimal choice, so it's perfectly fair that nom, or anyone else, tries to protect it. The point is that, once you start scumreading one of them (volpe), it makes no sense to get angry about it being outed, because you should be thinking that it was immediately outed in the scum PT. That's what should be your primary concern, not that the hood has been outed in the main thread. But you may miss that out of frustration, and that's what my point 2 is for.

My point 2 is specifically saying that even outside of an emotional context, you putting "effort to make sure your hood isn't outed", to faithfully quote nom's 617, in protecting the hood is largely off tonally wise. That's why i am saying it was TMI - i would understand not outing your hood on purpose, but putting EFFORT on it? You must have been townreading your hoodmates if you say so. And she wasn't.

[Farkran]

@GiF -- current reads on nom & Volpe? Also what were your reads on them before FL's push?

Disappointed there wasn't a response to this. It's an important piece of data to understand something else that GiF posted.

Must've missed it.
Volpe is still hard town for me and that is unlikely to change sans a hard guilty.
Nom I was very confident but I'm not as much anymore. It should be kinda obvious though because y'all saw how I post when I bream with confidence. So I'm basically putting him on a watch mode.
Also I am not really dodging the game per se. Just super tired rl to invest my energy here atm and I have spring semester starting tomorrow.
I guess I should just put myself on V/LA for few days.
I'll still be reading though.

Did anything new happen in the hood?

[Farkran]

Ok

I'm trying to cool off and avoid deathtunneling but i am really failing at understanding the paranoia about nom getting 3 votes, like, i feel there is inappropriate resistance on her wagon but it's coming from slots i am hard townreading, so... i was wondering if you were aware of something that i am not

@GIF and volpe mostly

[Farkran]

Well I don't feel like there's any point on hard wagoning nomnom right now opposed to make double wagons on nomnom/Elems here Fark?

I'm not against that but my main concern is that there is no nomnom wagon right now.

[Farkran]

There is though?

There's like, probably 3 votes on her and 5 votes on Elems or something

Probably the two highest voted players at the moment.

Elements just unvoted and voted himself, so nom has 2 votes. I would hardly call L-7 a wagon, guess what i would call L-8

[Farkran]

VOTE: nomnom

I guess I'll vote nomnom for now in that case.

What you think of Elements though Fark?

I don't see him as scum. I am catching up the pedit posts i've been missing while arguing vs nom but i don't see a solid basis to scumread elements. The only possible scummy relevance comes from 1220 because he could be ellitold but it's nowhere near solid.

I have no meta about elements and nothing that he did has particularly caught my attention in a strong way. I still have him as a weak townlean for how he popped in, way back then - i read that as wanting to keep up the pace of the game, but then he disappeared for a while so the read fade and left me with mostly a lurker slot from whom i'd like more content. His recent posts are weird, but not inherently scummy.

I don't understand how he is a good counterwagon to nom though. I mean, i think there are two ways to approach the forming of a counterwagon: A. diametrically opposite wagon and that would probably be me, GIF or you - i could see this forming from the likes of anka, chennis, gammagoey; B. a parallel counterwagon, i.e. another scummy player like anka or FL. Elements seems out of place as a counterwagon in both cases, but that has nothing to do with his independent scum equity - which i still think is low.

Question: is elements widely known as a very bad scum player?

[Farkran]

that's kuribo for you

also I think it's slightly amusing the fact that farkran, the player that pushes others to provide content, didn't push elements to do anything useful here.

True, and the reason is i am not placing him in team or even close to any of my scumreads, nor against any of my townreads so far. The only prod i could address to him was to produce more content. I'd still like more -serious- content from elements. The same holds true for DEB (missing since forever), volxen and espresso (disappeared after a quick popin). Kuribo is starting to deliver.

[Farkran]

Question: is elements widely known as a very bad scum player?

I can rephrase this better:

Could scum!elems do anything here other than pull a madman card?

No, he couldn't.

I accept the rephrasing, that's what i meant.

Why not, though?

[Farkran]

Question: is elements widely known as a very bad scum player?

I can rephrase this better:

Could scum!elems do anything here other than pull a madman card?

No, he couldn't.

I accept the rephrasing, that's what i meant.

Why not, though?

You're basically telling me that I should begin to be objectively rude Fark...

No really, i don't understand why scum!anyone couldn't pull up anything better than what elements did. I personally would have corroborated my scumread of nom if i were in his shoes, i would certainly not vote myself or try to ate my way out of it. I am not a believer of too scum to be scum nor even too dumb to be scum, so what he's doing right now is basically an automatic policy lynch before lylo and yes, that's sad, i hope and expect some redeeming qualities, but i don't see it as a solid reason to scumread him right now?

[Farkran]

Are jesters a thing in this game?

[Farkran]

Meh. Elements, can you... explain to me why you are doing what you are doing? Talk to me only, ignore everyone else

[Farkran]

Are you upset? Or drunk? No hard feelings

@elements

[Farkran]

Fark you're talking as if we're pushing him because of his self-vote but his self-vote is just a bad response to the previous push.

By the way I think Elems/Fark probably isn't a team I guess.

This is because i don't scumread him for previous stuff, but this drunky gimmick is bad, and that's what i would scumread him for right now and i'm trying to understand whether i should. I'm going to check his meta.

[Farkran]

Spoiler: elements meta

Mini 2091 - scum
Mini Normal 2107 - town
ongoing game that we can't talk about but we can still check how elements is doing
another ongoing game that we can't talk about but we can still check how elements is doing

None of these has elements behaving like he is in this game.

Pedit: yes please, calm down. Might not be useful for townreading you now but if you're town you should at the very least try not to gamethrow and respect other players. I see you are willing to talk about your reads, and i'm mostly interested in nom's. You voted her before my post, why?

[Farkran]

You voted her before my post, why?

ank said scum

Why do you feel confident sheeping ank?

[Farkran]

It was something to do at the time

Ok look, if you don't want me to ask WHY at your every post, it would be appreciated if you'd go into detail on your nom vote, your apparently immotivated trust of anka and everything else that follows up after that

[Farkran]

It was something to do at the time

Ok look, if you don't want me to ask WHY at your every post, it would be appreciated if you'd go into detail on your nom vote, your apparently immotivated trust of anka and everything else that follows up after that

I can't help that that was my thought process at the time. I'm an impulse player. I saw ank say "nom is scum" and went "cool i'll vote that". that's just how my brain works. I'm sorry if that's not something you can relate to, but it is what it is

Fair enough. Let's tackle this from a different angle.

1. Is your readlist reliable or mostly composed of very weak reads?
2. Following up #1, what are your strongest reads?
3. I see you placed nom as scum, i am interpreting that as if your nom vote wasn't to pressure the slot but an actual scumread. Can you vote for your strongest scumread now?

[Farkran]

Actually I want to take back eliminating the possibility of Fark/Elem team, I feel like it's not impossible Fark is just kind of live coaching Elem here

You're almost at my levels of paranoia towning, and i thank you for respecting me this much as a scum player, but... no. I hardclaim not being in any kind of PT with elements.

[Farkran]

Like, how clueless you need to be to think Elems need people baby-talking him that he needs to vote his strongest scum read instead of self-voting.

That has nothing to do with coaching elements into voting his highest scumread but rather a not-so-subtle question about who was his highest scumread between nom and chennis.

Slightly disappointed by the answer, but chennis IS scummy on a surface level. If you don't look at internal consistency within his posts, chennis would probably be one of my highest scumreads too. He seems to be the player who favors gutreading and forming groups of preference, so to speak - forgive my vocabulary, i mean that players like chennis are very aware of whom they like and dislike, and tend to form both positive and negative reads on people based on that. It's one of the main reasons me and him will probably never meet eye to eye, but not a reason to scumread him, from my pov.

[Farkran]

Don't forget that this is like...Team Mafia.

I think even Element would say "oh wow team mafia, let's play it!" so even if he didn't care about winning I think town!him would be at least a bit more eager to read the game and have some takes on it but like, he clearly didn't compared to what you can see in town!him.

I've seen people being very eager about games only to forget their existances literally 2 irl days after, without being actually busy irl (because they were posting elsewhere in these forums, not even games but stuff like speakeasy and whatnot), and letting themselves being force-replaced out. I made peace with the fact that people do not have the same amount of fun as i have when playing the game, and lowered my expectations a lot.

By the way your reasoning also applies to other people i've already mentioned several posts ago. Everyone of them should post more, but i currently have no reason to scumread any of them, although i never look at lurkers in a good way. Take volxen - he is in team with none other than nancy drew. Do you know how much of a pain the ass could ND be when she's in a team with you? I do. Volxen is probably getting prodded every 10 minutes for not posting. And he doesn't give a fuck.

[Farkran]

Actually i have been a bit too harsh on volxen, i did not verify if he is having irl issues or not, his last posts on the forums is in this game so it's still plausible. Still, there are plenty of people who are not tryharding as i am and who should post more.

[Farkran]

@Maria - why are you pushing Nomnom for town reading GIF, when Volpe has essentially lock town ridden GIF as scum off to victory for worse reasons?

I'm not pushing nom. I'm calling noms reasoning stupid for townreading Gif. If Vope did the same thing I probably skipped it cause lol Vope.

Posting to have this in my ISO

[Farkran]

I'm trying to recollect myself about my scumcase against nom, asking myself why nobody noticed it

I could understand people adverse to logic-based reasoning not thinking of it as a solid scumcase, but why did literally nobody catch that whereas my team immediately did? I feel like a player with the profile of maria should have, for instance.

[Farkran]

Don't want to start a conversation on mafia theory, but what you just mentioned is a very abstract logical fallacy, and one which is very subject to wifom, bias and your individual ability to actually perform what you say you would, i don't think it's a good comparison.

I still think what nom did comes from a scum mindset TMIing her hoodmates, i can find no way around that. Perhaps i might want to hear some more towncases of nom.

@A50, you said skitter believes nom is town, can you recap her reasons here?

[Farkran]

If anything it's bothering me a lot that you're just ignoring the sheer contrast between Elements town games and him here

I think this is a lot, and I mean a lot really, closer to his scum game. He just felt more at easy on not doing completely anything here because it's a larger game and people weren't looking at him

Because i think there is a similar contrast between this and his scumgames too, where do you think i should look to see that his scumgame is similar to this? I did read your #1547, but did you notice that you only quoted posts below the count of 100? That's like... RVS or just out of it. Scroll down his ISO to see what i mean. Post 1365 is where he flips, 1340 is the hammer. Look around there to check the highest desperation potential.

post 1257 might be where scum!elements' desire to play the madman was born, but other than that there's no trace of madness in that game ISO.

[Farkran]

post 1257 might be where scum!elements' desire to play the madman was born, but other than that there's no trace of madness in that game ISO.

Which coincides with when he was wagoned in that game, and we wagoned him here before him pulling that card out so...

add up and...

I think scum!elem end up revolving to mockery/irony when he gets heat on.

You're comparing d2, L-1 to d1, L-6

I don't think a scumread of elements could be formed based on his meta.

@A50 while you are here can you answer me about why skitter townreads nom?

[Farkran]

@chennis

First bolded bit is because i honestly thought elements was high or drunk or something like that, and i tried an approach like good cop/evil cop - you know that stuff you see in tv series? - To see if he would regain his senses. Turned out he did, probably not because of me, but he did.

Hardclaiming not in a PT with elements because it occurred to me that someone could believe we were neighbors and i wanted to remove any chance of that happening.

On a side note, did your team or your hood tell you to vote nom? It was too sudden to come from you only

(Sorry about not quoting stuff, i'm from mobile in my bed where i'm gonna sleep soon since it's 3 am)

[Farkran]

@chennis again

By that time it was important to me to let everyone know that i did not have any kind of added knowledge about elements

I was being focused for not scumreading him even though people believed i should, and it was not a good route to follow so i wanted to clarify that i just could not see how elements was scummy before he turned mad. After he did, i questioned myself about whether town plays like that and by consequence i started questioning him too

[Farkran]

@nom

on the unlikely offchance that you are town you should stop insulting people who scumread you and start trying to identify who could be scum on your wagon, if any, and who could be scum off wagon. You have a unique POV that allows you to identify whose push is scumsided and whose is genuine and if you're town you should be doing that

pedit You're not even ateing properly, it feels overblown

[Farkran]

VOTE: Farkran

If you flip town I'm going to have a discussion with you

Good, we can talk after you explained why you're currently gamethrowing if you are town in this context

Get some sleep, and get back to this tomorrow. You're not thinking right now

[Farkran]

1674 is gamethrowing as town

The sooner you realize it, the better. Take your time.

[Farkran]

Eh, ok. Get some rest. The climaxing anger is something i usually townread, so i'm giving you the benefit of doubt

Don't waste it

[Farkran]

Eh, ok. Get some rest. The climaxing anger is something i usually townread, so i'm giving you the benefit of doubt

Don't waste it

@nom obviously

[Farkran]

I think it's because I'm a bit burned out of this game but I'm oddly feeling like flaming Nomnom until she quits the game but I opted for not doing so in the end

Ngl i worded some of my latest posts like that on purpose to see how she would react, like, whether the anger outburst would increase, decrease or remain stable

Anger increasing is kinda town indicative, but this is TM so it's... less of a perk here, but nom slot feels kinda better now. That said i'm still expecting her to realize she scumslipped about the hood and i have yet to understand why, if she is town, so @nom now that you have cooled off a little, can you explain what was going on in your mind when you raged about it being outed? It's not psychology, i really want to understand why would anyone be concerned about his hood being outed while at the same time scumreading the people inside it. Can you help me with that, and then point to who you think has made the worst push on your slot so far?

(I can't sleep but i'm trying again shortly)

[Farkran]

@nom now that you have cooled off a little, can you explain what was going on in your mind when you raged about it being outed?

because in the case we're all town scums knowing our hood is commuters and them lowkey knowing that someone in our hood wants to be commuted is huge information for them. That's why I got mad. Is that hard to grasp?

No, it's not hard to grasp why you would be angered about that.

It is hard to grasp why you would be concerned about your hood being outed if you believe there is scum in it. Do you realize that, if this was the case, your hood has been outed long before that?

[Farkran]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Good night everyone

[Farkran]

Menalque says that FL should be lynched if nom flips scum for the timing of him bringing up smash. He did the exact same thing in pfup to draw focus away from a productive direction into one that was ultimately distracting and +scum EV.

Mena calls it weaponized charm

But is menalque scumreading nom or FL unconditionally?

Also, are you?

[Farkran]

I'm actually reasonably confident that the major conflicts are either TvT or irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

it's more productive to look on the outliers for that and see who's working the sides of it than anything

Eh... this is one of the scummiest posts in the whole thread so far, and i just realized your 1815 readlist is almost literally a post count list. I don't believe that this analysis comes from town, nor does your progression.

I'm kinda fed up with trying to lead wagons though, i feel i am getting nowhere and i'd like to coordinate something instead. I don't want to get paranoid over my hard townreads so, questions:

1. Is the wagon on elements really relevant? @GIF, @daves
2. Do we still believe nom is scum? @volpe, @daves
3. What do we make of FL and Anka? Are they worth wagoning? @volpe, GIF, daves

I mean the "town is eating town" theory is not appealing. At all. Even moreso in team mafia.

[Farkran]

^ above questions may also be addressed at vex vience, deasvail and chennis, actually

[Farkran]

Townread

[Farkran]

Paranoid profile seems genuine, fight vs FL and nom seemed genuine, looks solvey with his posts. Scummiest things coming from that side are some possibly bad pushes (i think the push against you kinda is ) but once again they fits a paranoid profile of volpe.

Otoh i specifically want to avoid being paranoid on my townreads, especially on d1, so i am not hunting volpe today

[Farkran]

Ok legit farkran

How exactly are you approaching my posts?

I've been working from both scum! and town!anka POV when reading your posts. You are not aggressive nor inquisitive, which is usually a scum trait in my experience, but i have seen town players do that so it's nothing decisive.

You don't look like wanting to take a leading position, and that's usually scummy except for the powerwolf profile which i think wouldn't fit you.

A lot of your early posts sound like you try to produce a carefree vibe around your slot, but you are actually concerned about answering stuff, and went out of your way to throw *some* content within your narrative (like that espresso read way back then), or 794, or 808 but it's... weak, as if you felt the need to throw it out without putting any actual weight to it - the only exception being 1255 but even that one is weaker than what i would expect from what in my experience is a town active player. I mean... if you were a lurker, i would be... kinda ok, but you aren't, you say you are putting effort into catching up, you post stuff, but you don't actually say anything. 1268 reinstates the streak of weak posts, and so on.

Last but not least, your readlists. Look at 800 and 1815. Two readlists, one thousand posts in-between, 80 of your posts in-between (ISO#73 vs ISO#155), and the result is... a post count. Look at it. Compare your readlist to this. You are townreading pretty much everyone in the top half.

I thought you would explain what's in your mind about denying the possibility of a powerwolf like me/FL/volpe - i think any of those 3 could generate paranoia about not being town in this gamestate, regardless of whether i agree or disagree with it. Your opinion on nom is weak. Your opinion on chennis is weak. Even moving GIF down your second list seems to come from him not posting as much as before. You have been wagoned and unwagoned twice, and you make nothing of that, like you are being content enough with not getting closer to being lynchworthy.

[Farkran]

???

This is another moment where I feel like people aren't reading my posts

Please tell me where i am wrong, with examples and explanations

[Farkran]

I find the content of his posts absolute garbage but that's just me.

You know, this is actually concerning. I am usually thrown much more shit than i am here for my playstyle, and that's when i am usually correct.

Besides, i feel like you're still salty about my push on you more than anything. Are you willing to put that away and try to point out why i am wrong? Just don't speak about yourself and i'm fine - tell me which of my other reads/interpretations are wrong

[Farkran]

Oh yeah I should respond to Dave. Then debate on if I wanna read the last ton of pages, but I don’t think that has a lot of value in it right now considering I’ll fall back into the crowd if I do so and I would like if my opinions are heard for once

I'm paying a lot of attention to your opinions, so please do

[Farkran]

I find the content of his posts absolute garbage but that's just me.

You know, this is actually concerning. I am usually thrown much more shit than i am here for my playstyle, and that's when i am usually correct.

Besides, i feel like you're still salty about my push on you more than anything. Are you willing to put that away and try to point out why i am wrong? Just don't speak about yourself and i'm fine - tell me which of my other reads/interpretations are wrong

No I think that your arguments are generally really bad and that you need to retune your reading skills because it's really concerning if you're town

Tell me why, don't settle on "generally wrong"

Tell me how your reasoning is better than mine, why am i a bad townplayer compared to you? What should i look for in other people's post? What did you find that i did not?

[Farkran]

I never made any comparisons I just think you Volpe and Chennis make mountains on completely asinine things and miss out the more general gamestate at hand. It's like being at a football stadium and looking at your feet instead of the game itself. That's how I feel about your posts.

Well, you just said multiple times that i suck, so you probably think you, or at least some other people, are better than me at doing things.

Can you tell me why? What is this general gamestate you're talking about? Spend some time trying to help town rather than shitting on me - even if i don't get what you're saying because i'm an idiot, someone else might

[Farkran]

Like if you were to look at the general gamestate

which player seems the weirder in terms of their posting and expresses the most dissonance

when given enough time?

That's what you should be looking at, not "HERE IS HOW YOU SHOULD HAVE FELT".

Bolded part, for instance. Who is that? And why? Which posts should i look to see what you see?

[Farkran]

That kind of thing must be harder in your spot but it's sure hell of a lot better than the stuff you told about my slot yesterday. I legit got angered by one or two posts.

Would've been scummy if you didn't. I believed in what i pushed, because i still think that stuff about the hood was scummy, but i worded my posts very aggressively on purpose. If you didn't get mad, i would've thought that you agreed with me despite forcing yourself to say you didn't (because you would be scum in this scenario). Fiercely refuting my scumcase is what made me unvote. This only works once though, and it's not as townlock-worthy as i hoped it would. I am placing you in a better light though, and much more willing to reread the game from town!nom pov

pedit: My vote is where I think there's the most dissonance so far, aka GIF. I think what he did early on and what he's doing now is indicating a scum mindset, as in letting a lynch go on rather than actively contributing, which is a scummy thing to do. Read his ISO. This is why I'm on GIF.

I have GIF as hard town, but to be honest i forgot why in the middle of the elements/nom/volpe argument. I will review his ISO in a short while. Your main scumcase against him is that he is ignoring highest wagons and/or general consensus about the current gamestate?

Does this mean that you're associating him with the current lynch targets such as... elements, mostly (because the other one is you)? Or do you mean he is content with any lynch as long as it isn't him or his partners? Why would scum!GIF not join a wagon against town in this case?

[Farkran]

@maria i will read your posts carefully in a while, need to take a showrr and prepare for dinner rn

[Farkran]

???

This is another moment where I feel like people aren't reading my posts

Please tell me where i am wrong, with examples and explanations

Poke at this, will read later

[Farkran]

Reading ankamius ISO doesn't take hours so you may talk about that

See my 1898 for reference

[Farkran]

The part I want to know is what examples from dave/chen do you find dif because our reads are exactly the other way around where I see Chenn as ya know, doing things. Compared to Dave who is playing to get an advantage.

I am past scumreading chennis for that particular post we're now talking about, he has pretty much redeemed himself out of internal consistency in his reads and pushes. I do not agree with some, probably most, of his analysis and conclusions, but i no longer see a scum mindset behind them.

However, i'm still townreading dave. I have been since the volpe vs FL debate. I don't see him trying to get an advantage on anyone, actually - i read his posts as being cautious with forming hard reads, perhaps overly so compared to how i play as town, but not in a particularly scummy way since we are only 3 irl days into d1. I do agree that it feels much more time has passed but... it hasn't. Posts 538 and 544 are examples of what i am talking about, i don't see scum trying to sort both slots there - i would expect either siding with the winning side (to push a mislynch), more rarely the losing side (for towncred when it flips), ignoring them or shading both. Depends on player profile.

Posts 878-879 are more examples of the same mindset which i think is towny. There are a lot more. It's nothing that would be impossible to fake as scum, but i also don't know why i should assume the worst case scenario when there are scummier slots out there. To be clear, i am actively trying to be more confident about my townreads in this game to avoid turning it into a paranoia fest. It's a 18p game, it's team mafia, we are averaging 20 pages per irl day. The activity is cool, no need to place unnecessary burdens of proof on townreads rather than scumreads - at least for now.

I see that in your next post you are pretty much getting close to how i view it, so i'm dropping daves for now.

[Farkran]

I've been working from both scum! and town!anka POV when reading your posts. You are not aggressive nor inquisitive, which is usually a scum trait in my experience, but i have seen town players do that so it's nothing decisive.

I'm only aggressive when I'm confident in my own conclusions and find inherent value in pushing them, I'm not going to be aggressive when I'm not expecting any results from what I'm pushing

I had a lot of issues with deathtunneling years back so I'm more careful about what I push and why

Ok, trying from a different angle: how are you scumhunting in this game? What are you looking for in people's posts to form reads, besides activity and effort?

Because my problem with you now is that i don't see you doing any of that. It is early, but you're feeling way too cautious and you seem to be expecting the game to solve itself, but contrary to a lurker you are also paying enough attention and posting stuff that i see as empty. This is the point of me asking you "why am i wrong?", because surely you don't think your posts are empty... i guess?

Also what's the point of having a readlist that almost coincides with post count? Did you notice it at all?

[Farkran]

Hmm, Farkran and I do disagree on something that isn't nom. I don't get the Ank push.

I also don't get the GIF push, but i have yet to reread his ISO. Why is ank town?

[Farkran]

I don't look at what people are doing
I look at WHY they're doing what they're doing

Eh... that's my problem. I think i am doing the same, or at the very least both. I am not picking apart simple words or sentences, i am trying to get if they can come from a scum mindset or not. Internal consistency, motive or lack thereof for removing anyone from the game, opportunism, busyworking, etc. I may agree that we are doing it differently - but contrary to say, people like chennis, who i do not agree with but i can recognize his scumhunting methods, i can't recognize yours.

I compare what people are trying to do with what I think scum are trying to do and see if they match

Ok... what are scum trying to do in this gamestate? I have my own opinion about this, and i expect yours does not match mine so i am curious to hear it to see if you are, at least, being internally consistent.

[Farkran]

UNVOTE:

Bye volpe, see you later

I honestly noticed the same things as your 1974 and was about to suggest taking a little break to let things grow without us fertilizing them. I might do the same, taking advantage of being away from home tomorrow.

[Farkran]

I'm actually reasonably confident that the major conflicts are either TvT or irrelevant in the grand scheme of things

it's more productive to look on the outliers for that and see who's working the sides of it than anything

this reminds me that chenn mentioned stuff about this that would indicate town although I'd need to double check to lock that

if the pieces are falling into place properly, GIF/Deas/Gamma/'lurkers'/EP/elements should probably have the scumteam

I'm struggling to see most of the other players fitting into this right now

Ok. May i suggest taking a step forward from simple generalization and try to concretize these posts into actual names?

Volpe vs FL = TvT
Farkran vs Chennis = TvT
Farkran vs Nom = TvT
Farkran vs Ankamius = TvT

...that's a lot of farkran, adding in that i've been fighting with FL too. You must really think i am bad at being town, if every one of my "fights" has been picked against town. I'm not taking it on a personal level or being prideful, i just find it hard to believe that you think i have been wrong every single time, yet you're still townreading me. I would understand not being sure, but *all* of those people -including me- are hard townreads of yours.

I see that you are treating Nom vs GIF and volpe vs Elements, perhaps Maria vs Daves? in a different fashion though. However... i don't understand why? What's the difference?

[Farkran]

I've finished my reread of GIF ISO, can't find anything wonky or scummy in there, but i found out that my hardtownread was probably mostly out of early agreement bias and i may need to update it. I'd like someone to point out anything i am missing.

On the other hand i think i don't scumread FL anymore after his recent exchange with chennis. Dave and gammagoey probably fell for the bait, but reacted spontaneously so that's a confirm about dave for me, and improving my gammagoey read.

VOTE: ankamius