TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[EspressoPatronum]

First

VOTE: chenn

First is the worst.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

Oh yah?

Starscream > Dinobot.

There, I said it. You forced my hand.

[EspressoPatronum]

am I being pocketed

I got my eye on you

Ok

Honestly I'm mostly fucking around atm, I don't actually believe that

VOTE: Ankamius

I really dislike the instant backtracking here

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm also not so sure about Ank's reaction to nom's vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler: a million flavour signals

Okay.

Moving onto more important topics.

Do we have any single ladies in the house tonight?

I'm a pringle mingle and ready to single

Now put your hands up!

‘Cause if you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it

All the single ladies

(All the single ladies)

You make crumbing look like a baking contest.

[EspressoPatronum]

This game is getting spicy

Indeed. Can you list me some of your best past games?

Bonus points if there's a healthy sprinkling of town and scum games in your list.

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler: a million flavour signals

Okay.

Moving onto more important topics.

Do we have any single ladies in the house tonight?

I'm a pringle mingle and ready to single

Now put your hands up!

‘Cause if you like it then you shoulda put a ring on it

All the single ladies

(All the single ladies)

You make crumbing look like a baking contest.

This post is observant of you, but it lacks a conclusion statement - do you think deas flavor could be AI, or indicative of anything else relevant? Was it just a note?

Credit to gobbledygook (my teammate) for the observation.

I don't think flavour is AI in this game, but that may change if scum flips suggest otherwise.

Flavour is likely relevant to neighbourhoods. Beyonce could probably fit in several neighbourhoods, but I'll pencil Deas in as a singer for now.

Despite my being a big fan of flavour, I hope DeasVail's future posts will stray away from it.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm about 17 pages behind and won't be able to catch up until tomorrow evening. If I'm needed for anything pressing, just @EP and I'll either search it in the morning it or my hoodmates will let me know.

[EspressoPatronum]

Catching up on this is gonna be impossible.

I'm here now. Anything current?

[EspressoPatronum]

My team's reads mixed with some observations from skimming:

- why is Volpe townreading me so much?
- Elements is on par with his town game
- Ank's scumread on me is low hanging fruit. Maybe Ank is doing a slayer's play? The full town reads list with only me as scum is weird.
- if Volpe!scum, FL shouldn't get a free pass

[EspressoPatronum]

Good stuff from Farkran and GiF

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank thanks for linking those games btw. I haven't had a chance to read through any yet, but I'll get to them eventually.

[EspressoPatronum]

- why is Volpe townreading me so much?

Can I Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V this from my hood?

I explained it there

but like, rough summary on the read I had (note that I dropped it as of now) is mostly because of your posting about DV's crumbing that later you give credit to your team amte.

I feel like your team mate if you're scum would only read the game to help you search for crumbs for PRs, which at first glance would really add up with the fact you noticed DV crumbing (if he's crumbing anyway? I'm not sure), but the fact you went ahead and posted it in the main thread makes me hesitant to think you've rolled scum, because I think as a newbie/newbie team you would be more hesitant of posting that you noticed someone crumbing when you guys are...hunting for crumbs from PRs.

I feel like scum would get more self-conscious there, while town noticing it would be like "this is really dumb/funny so let's post it".

This makes a lot of sense. Thanks for expanding on your read

[EspressoPatronum]

My team's reads mixed with some observations from skimming:

- why is Volpe townreading me so much?
- Elements is on par with his town game
- Ank's scumread on me is low hanging fruit. Maybe Ank is doing a slayer's play? The full town reads list with only me as scum is weird.
- if Volpe!scum, FL shouldn't get a free pass

...why do even you think of yourself as easy lynchbait? Are you famous for always rolling scum or something? Because i really see no indication of you being a low hanging fruit or lynchbait so far

To my knowledge, I have no reputation as being easy lynchbait. If anything, my reputation is more that I obvtown eventually.

I also have no scum meta, as I've never rolled scum on this site. I'm assuming it's just that I'm less active in this game than I usually am, so I'm not as present to defend myself.

Also do you think that volpe and FL would put THAT much effort into distancing? I could see FL doing that, hardly volpe, based on the profile i've drawn of the two slots. I made peace with them never being in the same scumteam.

Maybe. While the comment about not getting a free pass came from a teammate that knows FL pretty well, I'm aware of FL's reputation for big plays as scum.

That part of the read also came from the perspective of Volpe flipping scum, so it's not really an issue whether I think Volpe is capable of making such a distancing play.

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso any reason you're less active here than what you usually are?

Three reasons:
1. This game started right as I was traveling back home from the holidays.
2. I'm on a moot team + our written submission is in a week. We're doing full days of research/writing/edits.
3. With the time I have for maf, I've been focusing more on a different game I'm involved in rn.

#1 is complete. I'll be a lot more free once #2 and/or #3 free up.

[EspressoPatronum]

While I have you here, Volpe, can you expand on this:

[...] rough summary on the read I had (note that I dropped it as of now) [...]

[EspressoPatronum]

and I'm not convinced people haven't been scumreading farkran because of playstyle

Which reminds me: Where did he go? Did he post anything in the 30yish pages?? Remains to be seen

Farkran has been quite active. He's got plenty of recent posts.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Espresso Patronum

Naked vote.

[...]
I still can't really feel Espresso's halo
[...]

Why?

[EspressoPatronum]

I still want to poke the lower posters sooner than later. It is usually the case that some scum are active and blending, while some take a back seat and watch while the more active layers tear each other apart. Usually the active scums are the ones with character and can produce content and even take some pressure without falling apart. The silent ones are the ones more prone to slip or break under pressure, so safer to keep quiet for as long as they can.

We can always come back to where each of us is right now in like 96 hours, but for the duration of those 96 hours we should all be trying to force the low posters to come play the game so we have a better idea on the whole thing not just the players in the spotlight.

Now can we build wagons on the silent ones with the threat that a wagon may actually lead to a lynch if they don't provide a good reason not to?

This is a more eloquent and wordy way of saying we should lynch the lurkers.

I love it!

[EspressoPatronum]

I have no qualms with the Elements wagon. Gonna finish the next 6 pages before locking in a vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

why live coach when scums have a PT?

When Elems was going crazy I don't think he would be checking scum PT and I think a hypothetical partner would need to reach out to him in thread for him to stop.

Not saying it's the most likely right now just saying I shouldn't rule out the possibility completely like before.

Sounds too risky imo. If I were scum and one of my buddies was blowing up in the thread despite my warnings in the PT, I'd let 'em burn before compromising myself.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm still not sold on town!Ank, but I admittedly haven't given her the due diligence of reading her past games or going through her ISO here.

I'm content enough with Elements today.
VOTE: Elements

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom

on the unlikely offchance that you are town you should stop insulting people who scumread you and start trying to identify who could be scum on your wagon, if any, and who could be scum off wagon. You have a unique POV that allows you to identify whose push is scumsided and whose is genuine and if you're town you should be doing that

pedit You're not even ateing properly, it feels overblown

Yeah yeah I'm faking my emotions now blah blah blah look at me I am confbiasing my ass off because of what I think is logical in a game where logic has no place unless i'm a cop and it says WOAH YOU LOOKED AT SCUM TONIGHT!

fuck outta here im done

He's asking you to tone down the toxicity. It's not a big ask tbh.

He even shows you how it might help with your reads.

[EspressoPatronum]

I’m pretty good at smash.

Gotta watch out for anyone who says they're 'pretty good' at Smash Bros.

They're good enough to know they can beat most casuals, but they know they're worse than the pros.

[EspressoPatronum]

Menalque says that FL should be lynched if nom flips scum for the timing of him bringing up smash. He did the exact same thing in pfup to draw focus away from a productive direction into one that was ultimately distracting and +scum EV.

Mena calls it weaponized charm

[EspressoPatronum]

Farkran is pretty much locktown for me.

Slight bias on his high activity and effort, but I'm really liking his content.

[EspressoPatronum]

I mentioned this in my hood a little while ago, but it's kinda sus that Ank's top scumreads (me and Elements) are touted as the two easiest mislynches at this point in the game.

[EspressoPatronum]

I find the content of his posts absolute garbage but that's just me.

How so?

It honestly just feels like you're saying this bcz he called you toxic.

[EspressoPatronum]

How are you an easy mislynch where the hell did you get that from reading this gamestate lol

I personally don't think I am, but at least 3 people have said that.

The only thing that matters wrt to me using that to inform my read on Ank is whether Ank believes I'm a mislynch candidate.

[EspressoPatronum]

Commuter Lynch Preference

Flavor: Volpe, GIF, NomNom
A50: Volpe, GIF, Nomnom
Ankamius: GIF, Nomnom, Volpe
EP: nomnom, GiF, Volpe

[EspressoPatronum]

I think it would be useful for us to out who is in a hood with each other.

Assuming scum have a separate PT to talk as a team, town is at a huge information disparity in this game compared to normal games.

I - Scum's Information

Any given hood containing scum gives the entire scum team the following information:
1. Which players are part of that hood
2. The collective power for that hood
3. The survivor power for that hood
4. The flavour name for that hood (eg. Composer)
Scum has this information on however many hoods the scum team is spread throughout.

Even though they have limited information about hoods containing no scum, they still know every player who is in an all-town hood.

Given that a night power reveals information about a hood's power, it is possible for scum to gain information about non-scum hoods.

II - Town's Information

Any given town member knows the 4 hood items above (players/power/survivor/flavour) only as it relates to their individual slot.

Town also does not know any of the all-town hoods.

III - Equalizing the Disparity is Good

In a normal game, the information disparity is usually limited to scum knowing their teammates. In this game, scum knows some/many of our collective + survivor PRs.

We need to share some information to help correct the disparity. While it may not be useful immediately, knowing more about the hoods will allow us to hold people accountable for future powers. I've seen a few people muse over distribution in specific hoods (eg. the commuter hood), so it could perhaps help in that area as well.

Group distribution is the right information to out. Scum already knows almost all of the group distribution, so revealing this will give scum limited information. At the same, it gives town a lot more information than it currently has. Group distribution is also the least revealing of the above factors, allowing all-town hoods to remain relatively secret (wrt powers, at least). Further, it will give us an easier solve later in the game. Information roles such as the night revealing role will allow us to piece together the other factors over time.

[EspressoPatronum]

TL;DR knowing hood members might help us out in the long run. Sharing this info is low risk because scum already knows the information anyway.

[EspressoPatronum]

If start the ball rolling, but FL already outed us yesterday.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't want my hood's abilities to be outed

sorry

You didn't read my post

[EspressoPatronum]

I think enough has been said about the neighborhoods in general

Why do you think this?

[EspressoPatronum]

essentially

I have a nasty feeling that the scumteam would get a lot better use out of all this shit than town would, and I fully believe town would just barge through with forcing the issue anyways

Right, but the scum team probably knows the distribution of most hoods already.

If you give me a reason to believe scum doesn't have a team PT, then I could perhaps get on board with your thoughts.

[EspressoPatronum]

because this is the first step in micromanaging the mechanics of the game

and I know this playerlist well enough to fully believe that if this first step is taken, then it's going to be forced through all the way to the end.

and I'd really rather not play to try to maximize potential of the roles when there's a very real possibility that it will just blow up in our faces instead and leave us with no use of basically any of them

we'd be sacrificing too much for ~M~A~Y~B~E~ getting some use out of our PRs, and honestly beyond that I don't think town is in a position where we are able to properly use whatever we have even if we can manage to get use of them properly

I'm not sure I really buy the floodgates argument here. You're saying that we shouldn't reveal group distribution information because it will inevitably lead to a micromanaging game.

Who, specifically, would make this a micromanaging game?

Aside from your micromanaging argument, how does revealing group distribution hurt town?

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm even saying it could be helpful, but that isn't necessary for my argument.

If it doesn't hurt town and scum likely know it already, we should do it.

[EspressoPatronum]

outing hood powers are bad. outing neighbors is ok, ig? i mean, it could possibly help nail down reads from people, and it would get dialogue about them open, but like, what incentive does scum have to shoot the all-town hoods, knowing it’ll give them their last-man standing? wouldn’t scum want to shoot into their own hoods for it?

based on the night reveal, let’s assume the writers are all town. scum knows that group is all town and when there’s only one left, they become a vigi. that’s bad for scum. someone can easily shoot and kill them at that point. whereas, if the hood has scum in it, wouldnt they want to shoot the others in the hood—ignoring the all-town hoods—to get the extra nk?

I like this response + it deserves a proper answer. I have to go for most of the day, but I'll get to this once I'm back tonight.

Rq though - if scum won't shoot all-town, then outing neighbours won't change that.

Scum already know who's in all-town because scum won't be in a hood with any of them. Scum just doesn't know the distribution.

[EspressoPatronum]

Terms:
- Outing neighbours - outing the players within each hood. This DOES NOT include outing the hood powers, survivor power, or flavour of the hood. I also use ' outing group distribution' synonymously with 'outing neighbours'
- All-town good - a neighbourhood without any scum in it
- Scum hood - a hood including at least 1 scum

i see your logic behind it, somewhat, ep. but it doesn’t really make that much sense ultimately. i dont see the motive scum has to shoot all-town to give them their last-man standing, when scum would wanna take it from their own hoods.

Getting back to this from earlier:

It's important to recall that scum knows every single member of non-scum hoods.

You argue that scum won't target anyone in the composer group if they know it's all-town, as this would prevent the vig survivor power from activating. Scum already know if the composer group is all-town because they necessarily know the members in all scum hoods.

If, as you say, scum is disincentived from targeting all-town hoods, then outing the group distribution won't change anything with regard to scum's targeting.

ep’s probably townie because of that statement though. i dont think scum forgets they have a factional chat.

That's such an easy slip to fake though and it's been done dozens of times over the years.


I don't like the whole "We should just out all the group stuff." Fun Fact, in two of the three previous Gay Mafia games, the scumteam had most of the town's claims by Day 2 because town just kept blurting them out like dummies.

I didn't say we should out all group stuff. I said we should out the members of each neighbourhood.

Outing neighbours is very different from outing all of the group stuff.

EP is partly right on hoods, maybe even mostly right.
[...]

You say that some/most of my argument is right. What part of my argument is wrong?

Actually, fuck it:

VOTE: EP

My most confident SR at the moment, and I think if you reread his posts of today you'd deduce there are exactly 4 scums (i.e. we have TWO all-town hoods).
[...]

I don't understand how me advocating to out neighbours ==> exactly 4 scum hoods.

I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?

I think we should also out neighbors in general. Not the powers, just the composition of the neighborhoods.

I'm glad you agree.

[...]

TL;DR knowing hood members might help us out in the long run. Sharing this info is low risk because scum already knows the information anyway.

Outting who has a hood with each other was stupid in the first place but considering we did some of that day 1 it’s kinda late for that. But I don’t see any reason to fully do it and just put ourself out on a line like that.

Did you read the entirety of my post?

If you didn't, I'd really appreciate it if you took a few mins to look it over. It's pretty unfair of you to assert that town isn't working together when it seems you aren't engaging in a good-faith effort to hear out views contrary to your own.

In the case that you've already read my post, why do you think outing neighbours is stupid?

Well I'm right here ya know You more than anyone should know my opinion on where I think this is gonna go

to hell?

Yeah this game was played really poorly on a mech standpoint and this town has like no teamwork atm. (Besides a select few people)

I've admittedly been absent this, but I think discussing our treatment of the hoods is a valuable step in gaining some team cohesion.

If you disagree, can you spell it out for me? Also, do you have any specific questions for me that are unrelated to the hood mechanics?

[EspressoPatronum]

If you out your neighborhood I am going to make sure you die. Don't.

Jokes on you bcz my hood already got outed.

But actually... why do you think this?

[EspressoPatronum]

The problem with outting who's in what hoods is that yeah, scum knows which hoods have their members in them and which neighborhoods are all town

But they don't know who's in what groups unless there's a scum in them. We already know that an ability existed last night that publicized a group's abilities. Claiming who's in what groups gives them a roadmap as to who they should prioritize should they find out other group abilities.

Per last night's public role, we learn the power of a specific hood per the flavour of the hood.

Outing the group distribution of the hood is not the same as outing the flavour of the hood.

Lemme soften it down a bit:

Players A B C and Fuckwad claim to all be in group Sitting Ducks.

Scum uses an ability to find out to find out what the Sitting Ducks do. And it's a good one. So they start killing off that group. Or they know who to play against one another to fuck with that group ability and they know who to pocket.

They already know the makeups of the groups they're in. Why the fuck does it help the town to just fill the blanks in for the scum team?

As stated above, all I'm advocating for is the following:

Players A B C claim to be in a group.

They should not reveal their flavour yet (ie. Sitting Ducks).

Even if scum knows players A B C D E F are in all-town hoods, learning the Sitting Ducks power does not immediately reveal their information.

However, I take your point that it gives scum an avenue to eventually find out. To this, I respond in two ways:
1. What do you think of Vex's point that scum is disincentived from killing all-town hoods? We all know that the survivor powers are really strong, so why would scum want to give all-town hoods the survivor powers? I think it's more likely that scum would want to kill or lynch within scum hoods to gain control of powers.

2. Scum already has wayyy more information than town, as they know some/most of the information on: hood powers, hood survivor powers, hood distribution, and hood flavour. Since the disparity is already so wide, I think the risk posed by your Sitting Ducks example is worth the potential gain of town-wide information.

[EspressoPatronum]

If you out your neighborhood I am going to make sure you die. Don't.

Jokes on you bcz my hood already got outed.

But actually... why do you think this?

because it's antitown

there are probably some town hoods that get REALLY REALLY bad if scum controls them.

this hood discussion is REALLY REALLY bad for the gamestate.

you guys outing your hoods like dumbshits is REALLY REALLY bad for my sanity.

Why do you think that scum can gain control of town hoods?

To my knowledge, scum has no way to gain control of all-town hoods.

If scum want to gain control of a scum hood (ie. A hood with at least 1 scum), they can already do that with the information they have. Outing hood membership does not impact this at all.

It's like saying "if I'm a dumbass I'll give you 100 dollars"

1) no reward
2) risk
3) you're probably a dumbass, you're losing 100 dollars

now change "a dumbass" to "antitown" and change "I'll give you 100 dollars" to "I'll help scum for shits and giggles"

I don't think you understand my argument.

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is bad, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn you also did something like this back in Korina's cultafia game, in which you (as cult) tried to weaponize your domino theory against my reads lists.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also

Does town REALLY say "I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?"

Because I've observed that the Mafiascum site culture is to treat your scumreads like human trash. I think it's gross tbh.

By asking him to pretend I'm town, I'm asking him to engage with me in good faith instead of patronizing me with ridiculous arguments.... like you just did with me in the posts addressed in 2324.

[EspressoPatronum]

I get that you think I'm scum, but can you pretend I'm town for a moment and walk me through your reasoning?

If there were 5 scums then you already know who the 3 players in the all-town hood are. I did reconsider 4 though and said there may only be 3 scums with lots of power based on a recent game I was in.

I think you might be assuming a max of 1 scum can be in any given hood. I see no reason to believe this yet, so I think drawing inferences from such an assumption is incorrect at the moment.

The thing is Town does NOT benefit AT ALL from outing the distribution of the hoods. Like, what would it change for you -assuming you're town like you requested- to know X, Y & Z are grouped together? Would it make any of them look townier/scummier to you? I don't think it would. It just gives scum a missing part of the puzzle they're not yet privy to. At least that's the way I see it.

By knowing the distribution of hoods, town gains the following two benefits:
1) we can hold survivors accountable for their powers. If players A B C say they're in a hood, and players A B die, we know that any anti-town survivor powers likely came from C. Conversely, we might also be able to determine if C uses the power in a pro-town manner.
2) we get a little closer to catching up with scum's information disparity.

Specifically with #2, the benefits to town might not be immediately apparent, but it's possible more will come to light in the future.

Even further, I argue that outing hood membership (again, not flavour/power/survivor) doesn't hurt town. If it doesn't hurt town and it's possibly beneficial to town, we should do it.

So, basically: You argue that scum already know and I argue they probably don't. You argue that it doesn't hurt the town and I say it doesn't benefit the town.

How does scum not know the information already?

We know they have factional chat, and we can reasonably assume that they got the same type of Role PM that outlines the hood flavour, power, and survivor power.

The only information they don't know is the powers/distribution/survivor power/flavour of all-town hoods. For a more in-depth response to your concern on this specific matter, please see my response to kuribo in

2323

[EspressoPatronum]

1. What do you think of Vex's point that scum is disincentived from killing all-town hoods? We all know that the survivor powers are really strong, so why would scum want to give all-town hoods the survivor powers? I think it's more likely that scum would want to kill or lynch within scum hoods to gain control of powers.

2. Scum already has wayyy more information than town, as they know some/most of the information on: hood powers, hood survivor powers, hood distribution, and hood flavour. Since the disparity is already so wide, I think the risk posed by your Sitting Ducks example is worth the potential gain of town-wide information.

1. You can't know that, and planning around what someone else might do is a real quick track to the bottom

You're right - I don't know that. I asked you what you thought of it and told you why I agreed with it.

Please tell me why you disagree with it.

2. Yes they have information on which groups they themselves are in. Instead of knowing "A B C D E F And G are in different groups from us but we don't know which," they would now know A, D, and G are in one group, etc. So your solution is to give them even more information, got it.

Vote: EspressoPatronum

It honestly feels like you didn't read any of my 'information disparity' section in my earlier wall post.

Like, yeah, there's a small risk in scum getting a solution faster.... but town has a higher chance (imo) to gain more information from this + use it to our benefit.

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn you also did something like this back in Korina's cultafia game, in which you (as cult) tried to weaponize your domino theory against my reads lists.

VOTE: Chenn btw

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't read walls I bust balls

For that matter, I don't make cases I eat faces


And I already explained my reasoning: it tells us nothing useful and fills in the blanks for scum
[...]

Lol, so you explained your reasoning but refuse to engage with mine.

Then you voted me.

/shrug

[EspressoPatronum]

Because your reasoning is fucking stupid.

And your counterpoint is literally "Okay you're right but what if I'm right"

I'd like to think we could both be right about some aspects of our arguments, but I will never know bcz you apparently haven't read mine in detail.

I don't think further engagement with you on the matter is going to be productive until you understand my argument, so I'll leave it at that until you read my full argument for outing hoods.

Happy to discuss other aspects of the game with you though.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't think you understand my argument.

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is good, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

Lol, I see what you did there. Thumbs up for being clever, but a big thumbs down for the disingenuous attack.

On the one hand, I've written several wall-posts arguing for outing neighbours.

On the other hand, you've done nothing but respond to me with troll posts.

It's disingenuous of you to say I haven't pointed to any convincing reason for my argument while you also refuse to engage with me in good faith. Engage with me and convince me of your point.

[EspressoPatronum]

You keep telling me that outing hood membership (AGAIN: not flavour, power, or survivor) is bad, but you have yet to point to a convincing reason why.

Mathematics.

Specifically, suppose there are 6 town that need to be killed to get rid of 2 all-town hoods worth of powers. A,B,C and D,E,F
If scum kill A,B,D,E then C gets 2 nights of last standing and F gets 1 night.
If scum kill A,B,C,... then C gets only 1 night of last standing. It is clearly better for scum to know this split.
It's especially bad if there are scum and a SK, and they double hit on the 2nd night because then there is no last standing night at all.

When you run through various sequences of lynches/kills/night actions, those all-town hoods get more done when they are not outed.

Good point here - thanks for laying it out. It requires a bit of luck, but I definitely agree that a favourable kill distribution on all-town hoods can only result from not outing member distribution.

A few further questions:

What are the % chances of random unfavourable kill distributions? And is the % difference worth losing more town-wide information?

What do you think of Vex's point that it's better for scum to kill within scum hoods + leave all-town hoods alone?

[EspressoPatronum]

Also if we massclaim

SCUM KNOW WHICH HOODS ARE ALL-TOWN. TOWN DON'T. THIS HELPS SCUM.

This is correct.

As it stands, however, town doesn't know the distribution/power/survivor power of any hood except their own (with the exception of already-revealed hoods). Scum does.

Scum also already know the members of all-town hoods. They just don't know the distribution. Dave raises a good point I'm favour of protecting all-town hoods. What are your thoughts on it? And further, what are your thoughts on Vex's point that scum have an incentive to target scum hoods?

[EspressoPatronum]

Also I don't really want to be the one to talk about this but it's fairly likely that scum are concentrated in hoods.

Also I don't really want to be the one to talk about this but it's fairly likely that scum are concentrated in hoods.

As in, scum probably are in at most 3 hoods. Probably 2

Interesting take. Why do you think this?

A50 strongly disagrees with your stance:

I think you might be assuming a max of 1 scum can be in any given hood.

I am fairly confident of it, and I have my reasons:

1- I was in a game that was close enough to this design recently.
2- Putting 2 scums in a 3-players hood with a "last standing man ability" sounds a bit silly. It's as if the designer wanted to reward scum for busing (or compensate them if one of them got lynched). "Hey, you lost a comrade, so take this ability to compensate for it".
3- Also 2 scums in a hood makes it an all-scum hood in practice. The hood's ability is decided by voting, so scum will always have the majority in said hood (and will never need to kill their town neighbor unless one of them got lynched/vigged)

Consider #3 for the outed abilities: 2 scums would be able to make a 3rd scum (not in their hood) untargetable, or they would make a townie that's likely to vote one of them voteless. See why it's an absurd proposition to have a 2s-1t hood in this setup?

Unless -if course- we are being trolled and there is an all-scum hood + 1 scum in one of the other 5 hoods, in which case your proposition to out the distribution becomes even more destructive to town.

[EspressoPatronum]

I've been assuming hood distribution was randomized btw.

[EspressoPatronum]

I would say the all town hoods,

by design

, probably have stronger powers that scum would want to exploit.

Just because there are no scum in a hood doesn't mean there are no tools for scum to control a hood. Scum know whether this is the case or not. We don't.

I think it's very bad to do this when this sort of game is designed specifically to fuck over bad town play (i.e. massclaiming hoods for no reason).

I hadn't considered that some town's would be specifically designed as all-town.

Can you point me towards any past games that align with your assumption?

A non-random scum distribution in hoods could significantly change how I'm approaching the problem of hood information.

[EspressoPatronum]

I appreciate that you eventually came around to discussing the hood stuff, chenn.

I gotta head out, but I'll see about checking that game you linked later.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Gammagooey

Gobble's been mentioning that he's pretty scummy. I was absent early game, but apparently Gamma's early game just focused on getting on ppl's good sides

[EspressoPatronum]

For the 4th (maybe 5th) time.
Ep has proven they're a competent/smart player just with posting alone. So, if we look at their early posts with the awful push onAnk that I already explained. Combined with the 'scum have a chat thing' that I never will believe. I think he's just playing dumb and doesn't really believe the stuff he's saying. Outting the neighborhoods is wrong I've said why before. EP asked me to explain but I already have done that. What more am I supposed to do? His responses to the hint of pressure before were weak as well. I just don't like their posts and don't think it's real. Why am I wrong?

I haven't had the time to give this game the attention it deserves. I posted a short list of reasons why to Volpe a few days ago if you want to check. In short, I was crazy busy at the beginning of Jan, but my schedule will be a lot lighter on the 13th.

Essentially what I'm saying is that all of my early game play was going to be weak here, regardless of alignment. Not much I could do about it.

[EspressoPatronum]

so i had a thought process, and i would play devil's advocate and think of reasons nom/EP should not die

and i came blank

I've heard it all befooooore
And I
can take care of myself

I'm not sure I can here, lol.

Please enlighten me, chenn.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also, Ankamius could be scum flirting trying to not get me to push her.

I need more time to think about that.

Also, how did Ank go from me and Elements being her only scumreads D1 to needing convincing today that I'm scum.

Wasn't I her top scumread anyway?

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn Tbf, kuribo seemed annoyed enough about the Elements thing that he'd probably bug the mods about it as town or scum.

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn Tbf, kuribo seemed annoyed enough about the Elements thing that he'd probably bug the mods about it as town or scum.

pops clarified that mod action + informed POV makes it more likely.

Probably true.

But still, wouldn't the mod have consulted the whole/most of the TM mod team before deciding to mod kill though? I'm struggling to see one mod taking such serious action without consulting the others.

Does that change anything?

Also, for whatever it's worth, lynching for this reason would feel pretty dirty tbh. I understand why you brought it up though.

[EspressoPatronum]

In other news:

I skimmed through Gammagooey's ISO and feel less good about my vote now. Gobble seems to have strong reads though, so maybe he's seeing something that I can't. I'll put Gamma as a scum lean for now.

I think Ank is scum. Her early game behaviour was scummy, I didn't like that Elements and I were her only two scumreads, and I really disliked how she 'needed convincing' that I was scum before she voted me today. She's been calling me scum all game -- why the sudden change of heart?

Chenn is either town or scum trying to distance himself. When the wagon on me started picking up steam, he was in a great position to join the wagon without much need for defending his choice. He chose to defend me instead. On the other hand, his earlier treatment of my hood argument reminded me of how he behaved as scum in a cult game. Tentative townlean.

I think FL is town. Strong town lead.... However, the chance of FL being scum increases dramatically if Ank flips scum.

What does GiF normally do in his scum games. He was super active early, but he seems to have dropped off recently.

VOTE: Ank

[EspressoPatronum]

In other news:

I skimmed through Gammagooey's ISO and feel less good about my vote now. Gobble seems to have strong reads though, so maybe he's seeing something that I can't. I'll put Gamma as a scum lean for now.

I think Ank is scum. Her early game behaviour was scummy, I didn't like that Elements and I were her only two scumreads, and I really disliked how she 'needed convincing' that I was scum before she voted me today. She's been calling me scum all game -- why the sudden change of heart?

Chenn is either town or scum trying to distance himself. When the wagon on me started picking up steam, he was in a great position to join the wagon without much need for defending his choice. He chose to defend me instead. On the other hand, his earlier treatment of my hood argument reminded me of how he behaved as scum in a cult game. Tentative townlean.

I think FL is town. Strong town lead.... However, the chance of FL being scum increases dramatically if Ank flips scum.

What does GiF normally do in his scum games. He was super active early, but he seems to have dropped off recently.

VOTE: Ank

i mean, as much as i've given up on this game, i'd love to at least say "i don't have these mislynches on MY hands"

also wrt "he was in a great position to join the wagon without much need for defending his choice" - yes exactly.

"On the other hand, his earlier treatment of my hood argument reminded me of how he behaved as scum in a cult game." - i think the difference there is i was explicitly making shit up and here it would actually drastically hurt town if we did that

Was all of the domino theory made up, or were you drawing on elements of truth there? You also trolled me a bit about my theory regarding reads lists, so that part reminded me of your reaction in this game.

The positioning point looks great for you being town. But just putting it out there for others - if Chenn flips scum, I wouldn't be surprised if some of my wagon had scum on it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Love me a fresh dose of toxicity before bed.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank what happened with your scumread of me from D1 to your read of me today?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank what happened with your scumread of me from D1 to your read of me today?

my reads changed

Okay, but why and how?

I was your only scumread going into D2. How do you go from that to this:

Remind me again why EP is scum

Shrug

I want volxen tomorrow

Probably gif after that

VOTE: EP

[EspressoPatronum]

I feel like town is just getting into a bunch of 1v1s right now instead of doing stuff/working together and atm I'm too lazy to really attempt a jumpstart again

How would you propose town works together here? Complaining about the lack of teamwork + not suggesting any alternatives isn't doing much beyond bringing down the mood.

You've already helped shut down my proposition on a way town can work together, so I'm interested to see what you suggest.

[EspressoPatronum]

So my team and I have had a discussion and they feel I've gotten way to toxic tonight. Pine especially was upset that while all pissy, I twisted his words in a mean way toward pops, because he respects pops very highly as a player. they reminded me that even if I don't care about my own reputation, that Team Mafia involves three other people. They also said that my reads get really shitty when I'm pissed off and that scum tends to just sit back and watch me cannibalize entire games while I'm filling them with hate. They reminded me that being pissed off is no reason to burn bridges with people I like. Or with strangers for that matter. And finally, they've further reminded me that I've put a lot of effort into trying to not be an asshole lately during games and that the old ways aren't acceptable anymore to other players, to site moderation, or even to myself. They even quoted multiple instances of the remorse I've felt over the years for being mean to people and reminded me did I really wanna have to go down that road yet again.

In the spirit of this being a team effort, and in taking what's probably a good suggestion for my own well-being as well, I've agreed to calm the fuck down and step away from the thread for a bit until my shitty sleepless weekend is over with and then come back here without being a complete dick.

I'm sure I speak for many when I say thank you for this post. It would have been tough to take a step back and write it.

Looking forward to your activity after this weekend.

[EspressoPatronum]

My willingness to vote nom earlier has kinda evaporated given how much I agree with her recent posts.

[EspressoPatronum]

What did you get from my games EP?

Oh true, thanks for the reminder. I haven't looked at them yet.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
if nom is town [cheeky] thinks volxen = scum for BAD TMI

Which of volxen's 10 posts were TMI? And why?

[EspressoPatronum]

We have a few people saying yes to a Gamma lynch and a few others saying maybe to a Gamma lynch.

Maybe there's merit to lynching a person in a lot of the 'maybe' lists because scum doesn't want to catch too much flak if/when that person flips scum. Somebody already mentioned this specifically regarding MariaR's list, but I'd say it could apply generally as well.

At the same time, Gamma's presence in enough 'yes' lynch lists shows that we could get some cooperation on his lynch.

[EspressoPatronum]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

[EspressoPatronum]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

My teammate who read what I originally had typed has told me to be nice. So, instead, let me ask: Do you think my previous grievances are misplaced?

I think they're misplaced insofar as you aren't contributing to finding the solution.

Complaints without suggested solutions don't really do much imo.

[EspressoPatronum]

And maybe we'll finally get some of that teamwork that MariaR has been asking for.

My teammate who read what I originally had typed has told me to be nice. So, instead, let me ask: Do you think my previous grievances are misplaced?

I think they're misplaced insofar as you aren't contributing to finding the solution.

Complaints without suggested solutions don't really do much imo.

You're saying this like I've done nothing at all to try and fix this. That's just, blatantly false.

To be fair to you, you've started some good work in the last few with getting ppl's opinions. It was more directed at your 'woe is me' posts about getting your opinions shut down immediately after you shut down mine. Then you spent a few pages telling everyone how nobody was working together.

Regarding your question though, you asked me if your grievances were misplaced. I maintain that they were misplaced at the time. If you started saying them again right now, then I would agree that you're at least helping to find a solution.

The 'suggested solution' is to you know, come in and post get the ball rolling. I've openly been trying to do something I really shouldn't have to do in Team Mafia. I at least thought I wouldn't need to teach people basic mafia 101 who sign up to this. 'This game is stale' 'this gamestate is bad' okay you know how we fix this? Come in post and do something about it.

Just because it's site culture to complain about gamestate doesn't necessarily mean it's productive.

Instead of a blanket complaint about lack of teamwork or a stale gamestate, I would suggest any/all of the following:
1. Ask specific player's their opinions
2. Comb through some ISOs
3. Ask for reads lists
4. Give a reads list
5. Give some new reads

[EspressoPatronum]

MariaR - you keep saying outing hood distribution is objectively bad. I have two points of response.

1. I've actually come around to this, per dave's argument. Protecting the distribution of all-town hoods could actually be beneficial to town. Some other impacting factors in this change include:
- I think a non-random distribution of scum in hoods makes more sense than a random distribution.
- I initially agreed with whoever proposed that scum would kill in their own hoods. While I still find this persuasive, I can see why scum would want to kill all-town hoods to limit the amount of time that townies have access to survivor powers.

Now, recalling that the above is a concession with outing hoods from an objective standpoint, I also think:

2. Hood distribution is

no longe objective

. Everyone now knows the distribution of: all 3 commuters, FL/me, and DEB/Gamma/???

Again, I now agree that outing is not the correct play from an objective standpoint. But now consider this: -- if any of the already-outed hoods are one/some of the all-town hoods, then scum has a very good chance of already knowing the member distribution of all-town hoods.

Dave's argument hinged on the fact that scum shooting for all-town A B C D E F (assuming 2 all-town hoods) wouldn't know the correct order to kill to limit the survivor power. As dave demonstrated, it's possible for town to have longer access to survivor powers if scum doesn't kill all of one all-town hood before moving to the other. For example, if A B C and D E F are in hoods, it's better for scum to kill A, D, B, C, E, F to give each hood only 1 night of survivor powers, opposed to 1 hood with 2 nights and the other hood with 1 night.

Dave's argument is even more compelling if we have more than 2 all-town hoods, as an imperfect scum kill distribution on the all-town members gets even better for town.

But here's the problem.... If any of the already-outed hoods are all-town, scum now know the distribution of every all-town hood (assuming 2 all-town hoods) or have significantly reduced the pool (assuming 3 all-town hoods).

_____

So to recap, it's not correct from an objective standpoint.... but we're no longer looking at it objectively. The more information that scum knows about hood distribution, the more compelling a mass-claim becomes (NOTE - only limited to member distribution, not other powers and such).

Ask yourself two things:
1. Do you think any of the already outed hoods are all-town?
2. Do you think we have 2 all-town hoods or more?

Depending on your answers to those two questions, you may have to reconsider the merits of outing hood distribution.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah, that's a pretty big wall... but it's kind of important imo.

G2g for a bit.

@MariaR - I'll get to your other stuff later tonight

[EspressoPatronum]

@MariaR Thanks for taking the time to go through that. I'll write up a proper answer to that along with the other stuff tonight. Real quick though:

I raised some benefits of outing in my discussion with A50 I think. I can touch on them again in my actual response, but the major one imo is the ability to hold people accountable for survivor power usage.

Re your last point - I meant from a setup perspective, but I suppose a reads-based perspective also works. Your choice.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah, that's a pretty big wall... but it's kind of important imo.

G2g for a bit.

@MariaR - I'll get to your other stuff later tonight

Below:

It was more directed at your 'woe is me' posts about getting your opinions shut down immediately after you shut down mine. Then you spent a few pages telling everyone how nobody was working together.

I shut down your opinion on outting the hoods because it was objectively bad and anti town. Vs my thing that was trying to understand why people townread you. It's not something in the same category. If by 'woe is me' posting you mean the...2 posts? I made saying that my read on you is shut down then that's a bit of an exaggeration when really they were said in a joking manner not the victim manner you're making it out to be.

Fair. I definitely read your posts through more of a victim tone.

I feel your pain -- from the recent posts I've seen about me, I think people are assuming I'm sassier than intended. Almost all of my posts thanking people were meant to be genuine.

Then you spent a few pages telling everyone how nobody was working together.

No one has been, at all. This whole day phase has mostly been a mess and people having a few 1v1s. I maintain this stance and it's starting to change ever so slightly? Perfect. At least some content is finally coming out of slots like you and DV.

Just because it's site culture to complain about gamestate doesn't necessarily mean it's productive.

Instead of a blanket complaint about lack of teamwork or a stale gamestate, I would suggest any/all of the following:
1. Ask specific player's their opinions
2. Comb through some ISOs
3. Ask for reads lists
4. Give a reads list
5. Give some new reads

I never said complaining was going to solve the issue it's obviously not going to. I've done 1/3/4 on your list and I'm never going to do 2/5 unless I'm asked. It's not fun or worth the effort for me when I know exactly the reaction I'm going to get from people for doing such a thing. The thing is, one player can't just get things going. You need at least two people to do that in mafia someone has to respond and do something. Like now for example. Do you have any idea on who you'd lynch and why atm?

The best I've got on this is that I think our opinions on the game differ here. From what I gather, you would say your grievances were not misplaced because they were correct.

What I'm saying is that airing grievances without offering solutions makes you part of the problem. Not much need to get into this anymore imo, as things have been picking up recently.

[EspressoPatronum]

I think FL is town. Strong town lead.... However, the chance of FL being scum increases dramatically if Ank flips scum.

Hey Espresso, can you explain why you think FL is more likely scum if Ank is scum? I saw them talking to each other and joking about Ank being a SK in the 5-10 pages before you said this but I'd personally think FL would avoid potentially drawing a bunch of attention to himself if/when Anka flips by calling his scumbuddy a SK.

It's hood related. If rather not go deeper than that.

[EspressoPatronum]

Not gonna lie everything about EP makes me feel uncomfortable

The slot

Didn't you just recently say I was probtown?

The interactions around it

Fair point.

Who's interactions with me stick out to you the most, and why?

[EspressoPatronum]

Gonna check out those games Ank listed.

In the mean time, can someone who TRs Ank please tell me why?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank do you have any scum games in which you didn't replace into the scum slot?
You subbed into Fire on the Mountain after 2k posts.
I found Jazz Mafia 2020 but it was another replacement.

On the town side of things, Cat Art was a good one. About to look at the other two, but a scum game at the outset would be nice to compare them.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: volxen

[EspressoPatronum]

Side note - @GiF gobble wants you to ask RC for his read on Volpe.

[EspressoPatronum]

My team and I are fairly aligned on Ank and Gamma scumreads. None of us townread volxen.

For the sake of maintaining town focus, I'll consolidate on volxen. I think Gamma's push on me was disingenuous, but we can save that for tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

I remove my town read on Espresso by the way. I'm just noticing the fact that they are avoiding nomnom as much as nomnom is avoiding their wagon.

My willingness to vote nom earlier has kinda evaporated given how much I agree with her recent posts.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
Do you have any strong townreads aside from Flavor Leaf that you wouldn't mind sharing? I mentioned a while back that I was having a hard time seeing where everyone's head was at due to the ridiculous pace of the game - It's a lot easier now for me to read a lot of people now due to more readslists and the game slowing down enough to read through conversations pretty close to when they happen, but it's not easier to read you b/c it feels like you've only got about 4 reads that you've shared recently and you don't really talk about most of the people in the game.

Aside from your Flavor Leaf read I have no idea who you're townreading and your scumreads are volxen and me and Ank and mayyyybe chenn and/or Maria but I can't tell if you're actually scumreading them or just poking at them because you disagree with what they're saying.

Fair points. Here's where I'm at:

Town

FL (drops if Ank is scum)
MariaR
kuribo

Townlean

chenn
nomnom
dave

Scumlean

Volpe (note - recent change. I had Volpe as a Townlean earlier)

Scum

Ankamius
Gamma

Everyone else is null.

As I noted before, I don't really have a read on volxen so he's more of a null. I'm willing to consolidate on him anyway because I'm not getting a town vibe from him. His 11 posts total doesn't really help the cause either. Worth noting that my scumread on Ank lightens significantly if volxen flips scum.

Happy to expand and/or give reason for any of the reads above.

[EspressoPatronum]

Wtf

I meant the scumread on me lessening if volxen is scum

That gets to one of my teammates' reasoning on scumreading you. I asked them to expand further after you asked me who SRd you and why. Still waiting on the full team's answer to my question before I respond to you in full.

I can do it now, but it just makes more sense to put it all in one post imo.

[EspressoPatronum]

Here's where I'm at:

Town

FL (drops if Ank is scum)
MariaR
kuribo

Townlean

chenn
nomnom
dave

Scumlean

Volpe (note - recent change. I had Volpe as a Townlean earlier)

Scum

Ankamius
Gamma

Everyone else is null.

As I noted before, I don't really have a read on volxen so he's more of a null. I'm willing to consolidate on him anyway because I'm not getting a town vibe from him. His 11 posts total doesn't really help the cause either. Worth noting that my scumread on Ank lightens significantly if volxen flips scum.

Happy to expand and/or give reason for any of the reads above.

thank ya

Why do you townread Maria?

Two reasons:
1. Her engagement with me has felt genuine. Her discussion with me regarding my hood outing theory seemed to be in good faith. She engaged with one of my big walls and even gave a bit of ground in saying that it could be the right play in the near future (if not already). She also seemed open to hearing my reasoning for why I disliked her complaints in the thread about the gamestate.

In both of those engagements, it felt like she was trying to understand my reasoning instead of using my reasoning as a tool to scumread me.

2. My team told me a scum tell for MariaR. She has yet to do this tell.

[EspressoPatronum]

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Volxen and Vex Vience are being replaced.

FYI chenn is listed on both volxen and nom.

[EspressoPatronum]

Also voting an i active slot will do jack so

VOTE: nom

This is the most recent vote.


Speaking of which... chenn, you should hop off nom.

[EspressoPatronum]

Espresso has there been any activity in your hood?

Not for a few days

[EspressoPatronum]

If you sons of bitches think making me voteless is gonna shut me up after I got 3P blood on my hands, y'all don't know kuribo




I told you that shit wasn't town, kiss the fuckin ring

I'm with you.

VOTE: Ank

I told Ank and chenn that if they silence you that I'm outing my hood. We are the hood that got it's abilities exposed at the start of D2. The last standing ability is obviously the Vigilante, so THAT (and tbh ONLY THAT) is what made me think this had to be an all-Town hood, because I didn't see the Mods giving Scum an extra kill when they manage to kill/lynch 2 Townies.

ALSO, Ank was furious and and accused me to have redirected the lynch off -my scum p- nom. I told her skitter's read was still valid as Creature (Volxen) flipped NOT Town, and she said she didn't care.

chenn on the other hand has been looking for any reason at all to call me scum. I think he is Town still (stupid, but Town), but it got me furious I told them I won't be posting in the hood anymore unless it was to say who I was voting to become voteless (btw, I submitted Ank's name as I told her I would). They both opted to silence kuribo, and I lowkey think Ank wanted to get him mad to obfuscate the game status more. She explicitly said she was silencing him so he doesn't go after her. What intrigues me is why chenn seemed to agree.

As I said, I told them both that if kuribo was silenced then I'd be outing the hood, and -again- the stupid Townie of the two said it was OK because I was scum anyway.

I would lynch Ank today, and if either I/chenn got killed at any point the other should be lynched the very next day.

This + my reasons stated about Ank earlier:

VOTE: Ank

[EspressoPatronum]

I also feel EP and I are going to fight this day phase.

While I strongly disagree with FL's unilateral decision to out our doc power, I still think he's town due to the nature of our hood.

Night 1, EP gave a list of 3 people to doc.
Night 2, I gave a list of 3 people to doc.

Ankamius ended up getting picked night 1.
GIF night 2. I offered to switch our Night 2 target, but he wanted to stay on GIF.

Welp, if you're outing all the information, we might as well give everything.

I gave a list of 3 people I would be willing to save Farkran, Ank, GiF. FL chose Ank + I followed. Farkran died.

FL got paranoid about my list of 3, so I told him he could pick 3 on N2 and I would pick within that.

He listed A50, GiF, Ank. I chose GiF + FL followed. I asked him why he chose those 3 candidates, as my own top 3 was much different (kuribo, MariaR, FL). FL said he'd switch to MariaR if I wanted, but I told him I was going to stick with GiF. Volpe died.

Our Last Man Standing ability and Doctor ability is pretty pointless if there’s scum in our neighborhood, which is why I thought we were an all town neighborhood.

Like Doctor is actually pointless if EP is scum rather than the play around it.

FL and I have discussed the likelihood of an all-town doc hood at length. I believe we're both town...it's part of the reason I think scum already knows all or most of the all-town hood distribution.

[EspressoPatronum]

if you're going to be like that a50 then I'm just going to assume everything you say is you and just ignore it

ty

That's OK. Just look at where my vote['s at!

It's really not okay imo.

You're cutting us off from information for no reason. Why not share it?

[EspressoPatronum]

Ank asking me for my reads kinda hit me in the gut because I had to pause and go 'uh' and that's bad on day 3 to me. Along with the whole 'game state shift' thing that makes me go ??? Like, nothing has made me really change my mind much. I don't feel like my reads have shifted much yet my confidence level on certain reads isn't at what I want them to be. This is kinda just a ramble

I'm kinda surprised your read on me didn't change after our long exchange.

Can you tell me why you think Ank isn't scum?

[EspressoPatronum]

Gobble says FL is conftown in his eyes bcz this game is exactly like Detective Penguin.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't believe there's any scenario where anybody in my bottom 4 has any business hitting endgame

I have a role-related reason to believe that I won't make it to endgame anyway.

he thinks both Deas and EP treated volxen like they knew he wasn't town

Here are my two relevant posts on the matter:

[...]
As I noted before, I don't really have a read on volxen so he's more of a null. I'm willing to consolidate on him anyway because I'm not getting a town vibe from him. His 11 posts total doesn't really help the cause either.
[...]

My team and I are fairly aligned on Ank and Gamma scumreads. None of us townread volxen.

For the sake of maintaining town focus, I'll consolidate on volxen. I think Gamma's push on me was disingenuous, but we can save that for tomorrow.

I was fairly open about not scumreading volxen. However, it was more important to me that I didn't townread volxen.

A volxen flip also helped solidify my read on you:

[..]Worth noting that my scumread on Ank lightens significantly if volxen flips scum.[...]

Here's why:

Despite my early scumread on you, I kept town!you open as a possibility, mostly because my team told me how good you were at scumhunting. My willingness to doc you N1 was because you're a great target for kills.

Keeping in mind your reputation for scumhunting, along with your 4* primary scumreads throughout the game (Elements, me, volxen, nom), I know the following:
1. Elements was town
2. I know I am town
3. Volxen flipped not-scum
4. I townread nom

So fmpv, I am certain that you're wrong on 3/4, and you might even be wrong on 4/4. Volxen's flip was a chance at redemption for you in my eyes. His flip didn't give you that redemption.

I would like to reinforce that my scumread on you is not because of you being wrong. Rather, you being wrong is a piece of the scum!Ank picture.

Other pieces include your weird read shifts on me between D1 and D2, your consistent attacks of low-activity posters (ie. Easier targets for someone as active as you), and your friendliness to FL.

*It's technically now 5, as you SR Deas now. That's a new development though, so I'll need time to think that over.

[EspressoPatronum]

This is the weird reads thing I mentioned in my previous post:

@Ank what happened with your scumread of me from D1 to your read of me today?

my reads changed

Okay, but why and how?

I was your only scumread going into D2. How do you go from that to this:

Remind me again why EP is scum

Shrug

I want volxen tomorrow

Probably gif after that

VOTE: EP

Instead of answering the question, Ank deflected with this:

What did you get from my games EP?

She put the onus back on me to answer to her instead of giving an answer my question.

[EspressoPatronum]

@chenn

Maybe she didn't want the wagon, but the SR was there:

[...]
so who's left is:
nomnomnom, EspressoPatronum -> stale scumreads from day one

Volxen -> new scumread and one that I was pushing before anybody else in the thread but apparently me not being on him is weird now and is liable to give skitter an aneurysm if

a50 is to be believed
Dr Easy Bake -> who the fuck knows with him, I don't even remember how I caught him in vengeful ghosts
GIF -> my very old experiences (like 2014 old) was that I'd just know he was town when he was town; I don't KNOW that he's town now and I feel like that should still be valid if he's tryharding; plus I still think the way he handled the neighborhood thing was really off somehow and it pings my intuition every time I think about it
DeasVail -> not getting townvibes from his posting and I didn't like that I reached out to him and got only lukewarm responses... and then got scumread for dropping it, plus I don't get the same impression from him that I did in starry night
[...]

[EspressoPatronum]

Gobble wants to know why Ank is voting me today when she wanted nom as the counterwagon.

If Ank is town, doesn't that make nom look worse in Ank's eyes? Where does the vote on me come from?

[EspressoPatronum]

Gobble says FL is conftown in his eyes bcz this game is exactly like Detective Penguin.

For those interested:

viewtopic.php?t=80685&f=3&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

[EspressoPatronum]

My town core is A50 and FL rn

[EspressoPatronum]

I'll consolidate on DEB, but his lynch feels too easy

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank your recent wall says the game needs more cohesion and less 1v1s. It's mildly infuriating that your main reason for voting me today is my willingness to go onto the volxen wagon despite my weak read on him. Compromise is essential to teamwork imo.

Also @Ank thanks for addressing the scumhunting thing. You described your playstyle in a similar way in one of the games you linked to me. Post #1705 the first game (cats I think?) says you play to paralyze scum rather than scumhunt, so everything seems to align with what you've said this game. You even made a comment in the dead thread about RC's scumread on you making it tough to play your normal game style (which is riding out scumreads on you to get reads on people).

Your play here resembles the cats game. I'm just having trouble reconciling how your main MO is preventing town lynches when you're on me. If you read any of my town games (Ruby Mafia, Pastries, Newbie 1936), I imagine you'll see a similar playstyle. My playstyle usually garners a few scumreads throughout the game, but I'm not exactly sure what it is yet. I believe some of it is site meta differences, but another reason could be my willingness to compromise.

[EspressoPatronum]

UNVOTE:

[EspressoPatronum]

Scratch that, I know who GIF chose n1, but not n2.

I also know Volpe's choices. Anyway, I would rather not out this, unless you state your reason. If it's because of Dave's comment, then rest assured we have nothing to do with it.

I'm 90% sure one of you already outed this information. FL and I used that information to help inform our N2 target.

[EspressoPatronum]

By all means quote the post where you were informed of any of this, I'll wait.

[...]

Ank and Fark, and I think in the hood I said about me giving town points to them (and one of the reasons I commuted Ank anyway). One of them flipped town, do you think Ank isn't?

You can even ask FL. On Jan 12, I suggested we no longer target Ank if the commuter hood was on her anyway.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'll be honest this is a very specific post to remember, holy

/bow

[EspressoPatronum]

Sure whatever I'll claim. Maybe it'll spur some discussion.

My Neighborhood has the ability to role block the group ability of another Neighborhood. We vote on a player, and then that player's Neighborhood is blocked. We picked Davesaz both nights, though tbh I'm not really sure the deeper motivations because I replace in more or less as night ended.

At this time I will not be revealing who the other members of my Neighborhood are, since I think our ability is good if Neighborhoods start whittling away and town-oriented group PRs flip over to scum. I don't want them to be potential targets.

Interesting. Why dave's hood on both nights?

[EspressoPatronum]

At this time I will not be revealing who the other members of my Neighborhood are,

Does it matter?? because maria already outed she was your neighbor, and the other one is already dead (Farkan or Creature). *Shrug*

Where do you get that from

It might be a bit obvious but Vex and I share a hood and he's basically lock town in my eyes. For his play in the hood/thread and he townslipped post number 1.
[...]

[EspressoPatronum]

Should also be worth noting that as of the beginning of day 3, I've expressed intent to roleblock that voteless bullshit instead

Wise move tbh. Despite the fact I'm back to thinking it's an all Town hood (Just look at the other hoods powers. It's the same as the previous game we played together. Our hood's ability is SHIT, and the LMS is too powerful to dall into Scum hands), I say despite that I don't see the benefit of us silencing anyone, even Scum. Scum show their intent with the movement (or lack thereof) of their vote. We are actually a negative utility regardless of whether we silenve Town or Scum.

On the contrary, I think this makes your hood a perfect scum hood.

A weak power with strong LMS incentivizes scum to care about your hood +/ focus on your hood enough to take the LMS.

[EspressoPatronum]

@commuters - does commuting a player cancel their vote on their hood power?

[EspressoPatronum]

Btw I have been the one to strongman Dave roleblocks yes I can conf that.
I might ask for it again. We'll see how I feel
pedit: Kuri pls, I get you're mad (rightfully so) but Ank is town

Roleblocking dave's hood for a third time in a row seems like a bad idea given that his hood is likely an investigative.

[EspressoPatronum]

Part of me wants to vote in one of the 2-person hoods that likely have scum.

The other part wants to know more about their respective LMS powers before we commit to lynching there.

Thoughts? Pros/cons for discussing LMS of hoods that we intend to lynch down to 1?

[EspressoPatronum]

We should at least discuss the implications of giving Gamma the LMS before we commit to lynching DEB.

Also, why didn't they reveal another power like they did N1?

[EspressoPatronum]

Eddie Cane has an announcement about the last man standing powers:

If you think that a hood is TvS (+1 dead slot obv), then it's still worth lynching the scum in that hood. Worst case, you leave one scum alive and they can't use their LMS power in a way that's blatantly obvious, because then they just out themselves as scum. It's not smart to ignore scumreads just because you don't want scum to potentially have LMS, because there's enough info out there about the neighborhoods that it will be laughably easy to catch them. This setup is really simple at its core.

If we don't know what the LMS is, then it's harder for us to determine if the scum used it in a way that helps or hinders town.

I understand that you also want a mass-claim, so I think we're on the same page there. All I'm saying is we don't need to rush this.

We still need answers for:
- what is the power revealer LMS
- Why didn't they reveal a power on N2?

[EspressoPatronum]

As for massclaiming, our hood is the only one with known LMS. Gammagooy's is the only one with unknown hood power. All other 4 we know the hood power but not LMS.

Gamma's hood must have something to do with power and LMS reveals.

No other hood power explains the Breitbart leak from N1.

[EspressoPatronum]

How about, and I know this is a really insane idea.

We focus on who's been scummy instead of getting blinded by who gets x power and who's in what hood.

You can do both!

[EspressoPatronum]

How about, and I know this is a really insane idea.

We focus on who's been scummy instead of getting blinded by who gets x power and who's in what hood.

You can do both!

The power / hood / mechanics stuff is double edged. Do it too much in this game and you'll get a witch hunt that wipes out an all town hood and all it's abilities with it. Do it right and combine it with the behavior / voting patterns and it can reveal the manipulations we almost have to assume are going on at some level.

Correct. Hence my assertion that we can do both.

MariaR's statement came in response to our discussion on DEB's LMS. There's no reason we can't call DEB scummy and also look at what will happen with the hood's LMS ability.

[EspressoPatronum]

btw anyone know offhand who was scumreading volpe throughout d1-d2?

that's something I want to investigate into

Off the top of my head, EP had him as a scum lean at one point, but it was my slot (influenced by skitter) that probably made most of the fuss about him.

[...]

Town

FL (drops if Ank is scum)
MariaR
kuribo

Townlean

chenn
nomnom
dave

Scumlean

Volpe (note - recent change. I had Volpe as a Townlean earlier)

Scum

Ankamius
Gamma

Everyone else is null.

[...]

I'll do an updated list soon.

[EspressoPatronum]

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

[EspressoPatronum]

Well now I REALLY want to know what DV's hood was lol.

This information is already out now.

Dave + DV are in an inventor hood. Farkran was the third. The inventions give investigative powers.

[EspressoPatronum]

You're acting like I am blaming you for something when I'm questioning Maria's side of things in all this, which is odd and doesn't inspire me confidence in your slot.

You're coming across like you're blaming me, or pant, or Maria, or whoever is convenient for something we'd have no prior knowledge of. "Maybe this makes pant look extremely bad" "oh no wait now maria looks bad."

It's not blame. It's just sanely questioning that the target just so happened to be in an invest hood. Anyone with 2 braincells would look at this and say "odd". I don't know.

That only works as not-coincidence if you think DV or Dave is scum with Maria, and you don't seem to think that either. Anyone with two braincells would look at that and say "odd."


Also please put punctuation inside quotations. Not doing so makes my inner writer cry.

Wait is that how it works? French writing makes us put the punctuation outside of quotation marks
[...]

It's stylistic.

Fwiw, I prefer punctuation on the inside.

[EspressoPatronum]

vengeful isn't that op. why we freaking out about it?

I missed where vengeful as a LMS got brought up.

Can you show/tell me?

[EspressoPatronum]

MASSCLAIM:
Hood: Leading Actors
Members: EP, FL, X Elements
Power: Doctor
LMS: X-shot lightning rod

[EspressoPatronum]

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

It shouldn't be too hard to guess that the one who brought it up in the first place because they were outraged that the invest has been denied is town.
At least someone is paying attention.

If the possibility I outlined in 4094 is correct and the scum in the RB and inventor hoods worked together to form the plan, I'm sure the inventor scum would be capable of faking outrage when revealing the RBs.

As such, I don't think you coming forward earlier than DV helps us very much in deciding between the possible 50/50.

[EspressoPatronum]

Wow those are people who considered voting you.

[EspressoPatronum]

MASSCLAIM:
Hood: Leading Actors
Members: EP, FL, X Elements
Power: Doctor
LMS: X-shot lightning rod

Did you ask your hood partners if it was okay to do this first or did you just do it? Aka did you ask FL
[...]

FL already said he supported a massclaim today. You must have missed it.

Why didn't you ask this question to kuribo, dave, or FB when they outed their LMS?

[EspressoPatronum]

My team will be catching up on this game over the next few days or so. I'll post a combined readslist after that.

As it stands:
I'd vote nom in the nom/FB pair.

I'd vote DEB in the DEB/Gamma pair.

I'd vote DV in the dave/DV pair.

I think 1 scum is in MariaR/kuribo/panth. I'm leaning MariaR.

[EspressoPatronum]

I have a lot to say but I’m busy today obviously so let me just ask. Why do you think our hood has scum EP?

I don't think your power or LMS suggests an all-town hood. In addition, I think the scenario below is likely:

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

Can you answer my question I asked you earlier?

[EspressoPatronum]

We should complete the mass claim before we end the day.

[EspressoPatronum]

We should complete the mass claim before we end the day.

yes complete the massclaim before ending

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is the information we still need:
- LMS of the Composers (Dave/DV)
- Flavour name of Gamma/DEB's
- LMS of Gamma/DEB
- Flavour name of kuribo/MariaR/Panth
- LMS of kuribo/MariaR/Panth

[EspressoPatronum]

I'd prefer a lynch in DV/dave over one in nom/FB for now.

[EspressoPatronum]

- LMS of kuribo/MariaR/Panth

you're incorrect, I've already stated that our LMS becomes a doublevoter

Ah, right. Thanks for the reminder.

- Flavour name of kuribo/MariaR/Panth

I thought we had claimed this, but we're The Directors

Noted. Thanks!

[EspressoPatronum]

What if the block vote thing was specifically dedicated to the LMS of your hood kuribo

in english please

The vote block can counteract the Directors' doublevote LMS.

[EspressoPatronum]

ok I'm going to go a little bit into my theory on the game as a whole here because this is pretty relevant for why nom is just the best lynch today regardless of the read people have on her:

in standard algebra, you specifically try to solve for a variable so that when you put other variables into the equation, you get a certain output back; this requires filling in all other variables for a concrete answer or simplifying the equation as much as possible so it takes the least amount of effort and time to solve for specific variables; [ y = x + 1 ] compared to [ y / 2 = (x + 1) / 2 ], it's easier to calculate the first one compared to the second one because there's less calculations to make.

transferred over to mafia, assuming that the player you're trying to figure out the alignment of is Y and someone else's alignment is X, it's a good stepping stone to figure out X in order to be able to figure out Y; this makes figuring out X more valuable since it directly helps you solve for Y. in the case that there's only two variables, this technically works both ways, but generally in mafia the equivalent equations for solving alignments for players are enormously complex in comparison, so X just becomes significantly more valuable than solving Y since it helps simplify the equation.

now imagine scenarios where X appears so many times in an equation, and that it appears so many times in virtually every single equation. Suddenly solving X simplifies a significant amount of the equations necessary to solve every other alignment, which drastically simplifies the amount of assumptions needed to solve the other equations. The less assumptions needed, the more likely your assumptions are to be correct and the easier it is to backtrack and find the problem when it is wrong.

Now.

nomnomnom and her alignment has been a controversial subject for the entire game.
nomnomnom has been wagoned every single day and has been a vote leader for a significant chunk of the game.
nomnomnom's wagon has been comprised of mostly the same people.

Think of it this way:

1. nomnomnom, if scum, is a scum lynch that will revitalize the game AS WELL AS be a significant source of information to further analyze the game since her alignment flipping removes a lot of assumptions from the game
2. nomnomnom, if town, forces the players that have been pushing for her lynch all game to move on from it, which increases the odds of them giving information that will allow other players to accurately read them in the future
3. regardless of nomnomnom's alignment, virtually every single slot has held a stance on nomnomnom for the entirety of the game that can be analyzed because she has been so controversial for the entire game; but you can only assume what the motivation for those stances are because it can easily switch based on nomnomnom being town, or nomnomnom being scum.
4. nomnomnom is a direct source of tension since she is a very high profile slot in the game, and she's a proxy to tension because the reads on her are so controversial that it's causing a ripple that divides town into two halves

there's really no strong downside to a nomnomnom lynch outside of the idea that a townflip on her means we haven't had a scumflip in 3 days, which might negatively affect morale enough to not revitalize the game like I'm hoping it does. That's a risk I'm willing to take because this exact same risk is significantly amplified in literally any other slot, while it has virtually none of the upsides a nom lynch has.

this game is fucking dead and I really don't think it can be revitalized without removing nom from the game simply because it's causing this many problems in the playerlist.

I like this post. It'd be better if you specifically laid out your nom equations though. I don't trust your motivations, so I'd prefer you lock yourself in to your nom conditionals now. It prevents scum!you from inventing conditionals after you've had a chance to gauge reactions to nom's flip.

Even if you're town, writing out your nom equations would be helpful. It's one thing to say nom is tied to everyone; it's another thing to show it.

Btw if nom is town, then those that had weak scumreads on me early in the game have a lot of scum equity

Because that's two early unpopular townreads I had that turned out to be correct and I could tell something was off about it but didn't have enough to go off of to investigate it better

(Although odds are it would just be EP anyways)

This is a really scummy post. It's like you're prepping your next mislynch for a town nom flip.

Scum!Ank would need to find a new angle to get me back on the table as a mislynch. Fabricating a nom/EP dichotomy is a great way to do that, especially considering several players have started to TR me.

Like I said

Probably just EP

Again, pushing the EP mislynch agenda.

I don't think this game is properly solvable without her flipping sadly

I think DV is disproportionately likely to flip town, DEB is disproportionately likely to flip town, and my other two strong scumreads aren't going to get traction in a gamestate like this

Idk what else to do honestly

A few questions for this:
1. How will nom's flip help you decide on DV?
2. Do you think one of Dave/DV is scum. Why/why not?
3. Why do you think DV is disproportionately likely to flip town?

[EspressoPatronum]

@MariaR you keep asking me questions that I've already addressed. It's starting to feel like you're not even reading my posts.

I don't think your power or LMS suggests an all-town hood. In addition, I think the scenario below is likely:

I think our power and LMS is pretty likely an all town hood. All the powers were going to be outted at one point. Obviously you're going to leash the roleblocker. There's no reason for you to put scum in that hood considering the fact it'd be useless. However, I'm townreading both my hoodmates regardless.

About the 'below outcome' [1]who is likely to be scum in DV/Dave and [2]are you pushing for there lynch rn? [EP's edit - added numbers]

1. DV. I already said I'd vote him over Dave.
2. Not really... which you would know if you were reading my posts. Either you're skipping my posts or you already know the answer to your question. If it's the latter, you're just trying to set up a push on me.

I'd prefer a lynch in DV/dave over one in nom/FB for now.

My team will be catching up on this game over the next few days or so. I'll post a combined readslist after that.

As it stands:
I'd vote nom in the nom/FB pair.

I'd vote DEB in the DEB/Gamma pair.

I'd vote DV in the dave/DV pair.

I think 1 scum is in MariaR/kuribo/panth. I'm leaning MariaR.

I'm also still interested to hear your answer for:

[...]

Why didn't you ask this question to kuribo, dave, or FB when they outed their LMS?

[EspressoPatronum]

Oh good lord

1. I've been pretty transparent that my primary goal is to get the town to get motivated to start putting effort into the game again

That's good, but don't think my post called any of this into question.

2. I would gauge reactions as either alignment, especially in a major shift like this one where significantly more AI content is likely to be given

Right, but look at it from an outside perspective. You're setting up conditionals on nom's lynch, but you're not saying what they are.

Telling us the conditionals now doesn't preclude you from changing them and/or evaluating others' reactions. But it does mean that you need to provide a reason for your conditionals and another reason for changing them post flip.

It's admittedly more work for you, but it would severely hinder scum!Ank's ability to manipulate the gamestate after mom's flip.

3. Its self evident that nom is tied to the entire playerlist because she's been the most controversial figure that is still alive; even ignoring it completely is relevant

The interactions may be self evident, but the implications of those interactions are not self evident. I'm asking you to explain the implications pre-flip.

4. The way players interact with each other over time is too complex to go into detail on at any point, nor is it remotely useful because then the scumteam can easily figure out how to counter it

You spent several paragraphs talking about how we can solve better once we know X + nom is X. If it's too complicated for you to explain, then how is it useful to us?

5. You were never off the table, I simply stopped mentioning you

You conveniently stopped mentioning me once TRs on me started coming in. That's why you attaching me to nom out of nowhere is really shady.

6. Wtf makes this push on you different from any other time I've pushed you? You never had a reaction like this when I openly scumread you before

See above. Also, your others SRs of me didn't have as much of a clear agenda.

7. You've made zero mention of any of my other posts nor tried to sort where this scumread on you came from, why exactly are you jumping to the "chain mislynch" conclusion?

This is incorrect. I've engaged with several of your posts. I've even read through some of your past games. I even relaxed my SR on you for a bit following our last interaction.

What made you feel like I haven't engaged with your posts or your read on me?

As for questions

1. It won't, I will decide if I need to reevaluate DV if the game stops making sense again
2. I don't even understand what the dichotomy between them even is or why it's a thing I keep seeing pushed, so I have no opinion on that
3. His voting history and how he is reacting to how the gamestate is moving around him

1. I don't understand how your answer here lines up with your posts about nom's flip helping you solve the game. If it's self-evident that DV had interactions with nom, shouldn't nom's flip impact your DV read?
2. Myself and others have addressed this earlier. I'll quote some posts and/or recap them later.
3. Thanks.

[EspressoPatronum]

As an aside

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

That post wasn't town

And now you're voting me, lol. So much for your message that nom's lynch is crucial for the solve.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'd prefer a lynch in DV/dave over one in nom/FB for now.

Why?

I want to keep the commuters alive because they have positive synergy with the doctor.

FL and I are less appealing NK options if there's a significant chance one of us gets commuted every night. Scum probably wouldn't risk the WIFOM + would shoot elsewhere.

[EspressoPatronum]

EC thinks my reply was sufficient for the majority of things he wanted to say, but there's a couple more things he wants to point out.

Scum!Ank would need to find a new angle to get me back on the table as a mislynch. Fabricating a nom/EP dichotomy is a great way to do that, especially considering several players have started to TR me.

Again, pushing the EP mislynch agenda.

First, there are no scum flips and no town reads that everybody can agree on because this game has become essentially garbage. You unvoted me and implied a null or townread on your last comments on me, so why exactly would I look to specifically mislynch you here? The PoE is big enough and you aren't a threat to scum!me as town, so this is a just building a narrative. The agenda you're pushing me having is posturing. That's it. It's not even on anything that scum would do, because it is so obvious that it gets scumread when it would be just as easy for me to wait and push with the exact same logic

after

the town!nom flip in that scenario. It's nonsensical.

I don't trust your motivations, so I'd prefer you lock yourself in to your nom conditionals now.

EC wants to highlight this specifically so that everyone else can look at it separately from everything else and realize how dumb this sounds.

@Ank did you write 4433 before reading 4429?

Some of the things I mention in there already addressed your points in 4433.

[EspressoPatronum]

the tl;dr is that the response of 1 and 2 are answered by the same thing:

first, idk what you even mean by conditionals now that I actually look at your post again since I didn't even mention that word at all; the best interpretation I can come to is why 1-4 doesn't already answer that question anyway. I'm not going to go into a ton of detail on every single slot and what exactly changes upon either flip because that amount of work for at best half payoff is actually insane when so much of it is dependent on how people react to and adjust themselves based on the flip.

I'll explain the conditonal part.

You set up a conditional in 4402 by saying that a town!nom flip gives scum equity to everyone with weak scumreads on you early. You've been quite vocal in saying that my early SR of you was weak, so this post clearly applies to me.

You even go further at the bottom by saying, "Although odds are it would just be EP anyways."

Combined with your wall post outlining nom as the 'X' in several equations, your posts suggest a conditional linking of me and nom. In other words, i"f nom is town, EP is scum."

second, you're actually insane if you think I'm looking to 'manipulate the game after a town!nom flip' because the gamestate we have now is hilariously easy to manipulate as scum because town is so disorganized and with so little threat to me that I could just do whatever I want and probably get away with it because the only way town would ever be able to lynch me at all is via a deadline apathy lynch. and look where we are, around three days to deadline and now I'm making my move? by threatening what little credibility I've managed to scrape together to ram through a controversial lynch and setting up a second mislynch alongside it when it's infinitely better to try to do it after the first flip happened??? I'm a lot more meticulous about this shit as scum, I know how to abuse pressure points in towns and this straight up is not a pressure point.

I didn't say you're making your move now. My post called out you preparing a move in the future (ie. mislynching me tomorrow if nom flips town).

I'm sure you're very capable as scum. That doesn't mean you can't set up a future lynch.

third, my primary goal being to get town to get motivated again literally is the point of a nom lynch and why I've been pushing it. it's literally an appeal to the rest of the playerlist that there's more to analyze from a nom flip because she's been so central to the game that it adds a known factor to a lot of things that have happened in the game. my own personal ideas of what changes based on what nom flips is too dependent on how the playerlist responds and adjusts to the flip for it to even be possible for me to explain it, and even then that's a hell of a rabbit hole to fall into

Imo, giving a list of conditionals with a nom flip is akin to a readslist. Giving one now might be a bit premature for your normal strategy, but I don't see how it hurts your town game. I can definitely see why it would hurt your scum game.

I can even do a list of my proposed conditionals for a nom flip to show you what I mean. I don't have answers for anyone, but I think we can look to draw a few conclusions on players from nom's flip.

3. the implication is that everybody can get something out of the flip...? which is what I wanted since I want people to be able to get into the game...?

I was specifically looking for your formula/variables/conditionals here. Again, you made a point of saying nom is X in a series of equations. I want to see what you think we gain from nom flipping one way or another.

Nom even asked you to do the same, but I don't think you responded to her request.

4. because the equations are different to everyone, idk how they look to you or deas or deb or anyone, I only know roughly how they look for me. even then, since I play a lot by intuition, there's a limit to what I know about it.

I mostly just want to know what they look like for you because you're the one pushing it.

5. ok, again, why exactly do I specifically need to attach you to nom; I don't have the credibility to force through a nom lynch with being able to explain why basically everybody should want to, what makes you think I have the credibility to set you up for a lynch after her??? you can't even say I'm unaware of it since I've pretty thoroughly proven by now that I am

I don't know what you want me to say here. I saw that you were linking me with nom and I pointed it out as scummy. Scum!you could have any number of reasons for doing that.

6. you don't even know where this scumread came from, I thought it was pretty obvious that your name came to me from the town!nom scenario as it happened

My explanation above of the town!nom conditonal should make it clear that's where I think your SR came from. Is my understanding correct?

If it isn't, please clarify.

7. in that string of posts? you haven't. I explained my general process before going into that big post and made it clear that my reads had changed, including mentioning that slots I had not been considering before were being considered now (you aren't in this list, but considering that you have pointed out that I apparently stopped mentioning you when you started getting townread, it's not exactly weird to assume you are), but you're basing that entire 'agenda' off a single post that I made after all that. I find that quite fascinating.

What do you mean here?

I'm obviously engaging with your read on me in your recent string of posts. That's the whole reason we're having this discussion right now, lol.

question 1: see above, my overall goal is to get everyone else more information to solve with since THAT is how I get the information I need to solve with
question 2: ok thank you
question 3: you're welcome

Good stuff here. Nice and brief, haha.

[EspressoPatronum]

[..]
@EP - is there a reason why you're not voting at the moment?

I was holding off with voting until we finished the mass claim. Now that we're done with that, I suppose I don't have a reason for not voting. I'll rectify that now.

VOTE: Ank

Willing to swap to DV to help get the lynch through.

[EspressoPatronum]

I was holding off with voting until we finished the mass claim. Now that we're done with that,...

We did?? What's the LMS for the Movie Studio CEOs?

Technically not fully. I wrote them off as not claiming it bcz of the bolded piece below:

I think that’s weird because i was pushing Gamma all day yesterday, and I can’t see DEB ever making me loved.

you fool

yeah DEB & my group power is making someone loved

I actually voted for someone else (Vex, mostly because I think it's a dumb power and I'd generally prefer for it not to affect the game at all and I didn't think it would be on him) to be loved and assumed that DEB wouldn't submit anything because he's not in the QT very often but it got randomized to you (and DEB mentioned he thought you were town for once in the QT as his one night post but didn't explicitly say he was making you loved

our last man standing power is in my opinion will VERY likely only be useful if we don't claim what it is so I'm not planning on doing that.

[...]

[EspressoPatronum]

It's also demotivating when you think scum are fairly obvious but people just wanna not do anything. But then again,

I'm not supposed to talk about this without doing something in return.

So once again let me ask, if Nom flips town who do you guys go for
Same if Nom flips scum

And if nom is town who are the scum on the wagon

I appreciate you doing this, MariaR!

If nom flips town, I'd say FB and Ank look more like scum. FB for mechanical reasons bcz I think commuters have 1 scum + Ank for pushing a mislynch.

If nom flips scum, FB and Ank look better as town. FB for mechanical reasons (as above) + Ank for pushing a scum lynch.

I haven't yet considered how nom's flip will impact my read on other slots.

For wagonomics specifically, this is all as good as guesswork, but I'd say that town!nom probably has at least 1 scum sitting comfy on the wagon. 1 other would probably come in near the end. Maybe another on a non-nom wagon. The weird thing though is that scum!nom probably has the same wagon setup. I could see 1 scum sitting on the wagon for distancing +/ disassociation reasons + 1 or more scum lynching nom on the tail end once her lynch is close to guaranteed.

[EspressoPatronum]

there are plenty of occasions where people will know I am town, for example if FB flips scum then I am confirmed town thanks to my hood and we can have the doctor hood protect me.

Think about this one or two seconds and you'll realize how much of a bad idea this is.

God u keep spouting this stupidity.

This isn’t how setup spec works.

It’s very possible for both of us to be scum.
Neither of us are.

But this line of thinking is just speculative trash

"Confirmed" is a bit strong imo, but I'd say a scum flip in your hood suggests the other is town.

[EspressoPatronum]

Hello and welcome to GAY MAFIA IV

Playerlist:

• Ankamius - cancel food
  
• Dr Easy Bake - The Maurauders
  
• Flavor Leaf - Wild Cards
  
• davesaz - Busboy Revolution
  
• chennisden - Quick Attack
  
• panthaleon
  Vex Vience
  - Doomsday
  
• Creature
  Volxen
  - Derp Wolves
  
• MariaR - Ripple's Krazy Mistress Dunn
  
• Gammagooey - Old Hat
  
• DeasVail - The Lit Torches
  
• kuribo - The Four Horsement
  
• Firebringer
  GuyInFreezer
  - Bird That Carries You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap
  
• Elements - Team "Team" Team
  
• Volpe14 - Tea Gathering Club
  
• EspressoPatronum - Newb Kids on the Block
  
• Almost50 - You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap
  
• Farkran - DFKN
  
• nomnomnom - SubOptimal Math

Spoiler: Alive Players

• Ankamius - cancel food
  
• Dr Easy Bake - The Maurauders
  
• Flavor Leaf - Wild Cards
  
• davesaz - Busboy Revolution
  
• chennisden - Quick Attack
  
• panthaleon - Doomsday
  
• MariaR - Ripple's Krazy Mistress Dunn
  
• Gammagooey - Old Hat
  
• DeasVail - The Lit Torches
  
• kuribo - The Four Horsement
  
• Firebringer
  GuyInFreezer
  - Bird That Carries You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap
  
• EspressoPatronum - Newb Kids on the Block
  
• Almost50 - You Over a Disproportionately Small Gap
  
• nomnomnom - SubOptimal Math

Spoiler: Dead Players

• Elements - Team "Team" Team | Taron Egerton |
  Town Leading Actor
  | Modkilled D1
  
• Farkran - DFKN | Danny Elfman |
  Town Composer
  | Killed N1
  
• Creature - Derp Wolves | Ann Sarnoff |
  Survivor Movie Studio CEO
  | Lynched D2
  
• Volpe14 - Tea Gathering Club | Nicki Minaj |
  Town Leading Actress
  | Killed N2

General Rules

1) Starting and Ending States:

All roles that can communicate at Night may do during pregame. The game will end when one faction has fulfilled its win condition, unless otherwise specified.

2) Day Procedures:

Each player may discuss the game and cast a single vote at a time against people they want to lynch. Day ends when either the deadline hits or a strict majority of the votes are on one person.

3) Voting:

Votes should be in

bold

in order for them to count, for instance:

Vote: The Homosexual Agenda

. You may also use the VOTE: tags if you desire. If you wish to vote for a different player, you don't need to unvote. As long as I can tell who you're voting for, I don't care if you abbreviate someone's name when you vote them.

4) No Lynch:

As an alternative to voting for someone, you may

Vote: No Lynch

, but for it to take effect, enough players must vote No Lynch that it would be impossible to form any other majority.

5) Deadlines:

Each day will have a deadline of 14 days. Each night will last 48 hours.

6) Mass Inactivity:

In an act of pure villainy, I may shorten the deadline if I deem the activity level is unsatisfactory. You will be warned if I want you fellows to pick up the pace.

7) Deadline Lynches:

If no single player has enough votes for a lynch at the deadline, the result is No Lynch and the game proceeds to Night. Deadlines are there for a reason.

8) Twilight:

After someone receives the majority vote, everyone may still discuss the game, but votes and unvotes will not be considered - the person voted for by the majority will be lynched regardless. Twilight will last until I waltz in and post a death scene (which can be quite short, but never really long)

9) Night Length and Procedures:

The topic will be locked at Night. If your Role PM specifies that you have a Night Action, you may follow the instructions on that PM to use it. Barring extenuating circumstances, Nights will not last longer than 3 RL days.

10) Night Action Resubmission:

If you have to PM a choice to the mod (i.e. the name of someone you want to kill/protect/investigate), you may change your choice at any time during the Night by sending The Mod another PM with the new choice. The most recent choice will be honored.

11) Night Action Priority:

This game will use natural action resolution, unless otherwise stated by the mod.

12) Bolding Stuff:

Bolding something is how you get the mod to notice it. It's that simple.

13) Mod Color:

If The Mods needs to edit your post, it will be done in

b

o

l

d

e

d

,

r

a

i

n

b

o

w

f

o

n

t

. Don't impersonate me, or I'll cut off your thumbs and feed them to you.

14) Activity, Prods, and Replacements:

You will be prodded if three days have passed since your last post. You will be replaced if you do not post after another 24 hours, or if you need to be prodded three times throughout the game. If you know ahead of time that you will not be able to participate for at least 48 hours, go ahead and announce it in-thread so nobody (such as the mod) thinks you're lurking. I reserve the right to blacklist flakers or people who maliciously replace out.

15) "Last Words" for replacements:

If you request replacement, you may PM me a message that you would like to have passed on to the person who replaces you.

16) "Bah!" Posts:

If your player slot is killed off, it's probably because people don't want you around. Unless your role specifically states you can keep talking/voting/playing parcheesi with me, you are allowed one informationless "bah" post and then scram til endgame. Special mechanics can of course overlap

17) Outside Discussion:

Don't discuss this game outside of this thread with anyone unless your Role PM lets you do otherwise. Obviously, talking in your Team PT/DC is allowed as well.

18) Post Editing:

Editing or deleting posts is not allowed (and usually not possible).

19a) Mod and PM quoting:

For role PMs, If you quote it, you will be modkilled. You can send me the reformulation (I'm pretty loose with reformulation) and I will tell you if posting it is allowed or if it needs further modifications. If you quote a PM from me, you will be terminated (barring questions about rules or something).

19b) PTs and Private Communication:

If it is a moderator provided method of communication (i.e., neighbor PT, or masons who can daytalk and use Discord)

do not quote it in the thread

. Obviously, do not provide links to the PT in any way shape or form.

20) Modkills:

Breaking any of the above three rules (or flagrantly violating Rule 16) will result in you getting modkilled. Modkills can be retroactive. If a living player breaks any of these rules, the day may or may not end, depending on what would disadvantage that player's faction the most. In addition, getting modkilled results in an instant loss for that player, along with my general hatred. In short, follow the rules, don't be a dick.

21) Small/Invisible text:

You may use smaller text if it amuses you, as long as it's not meant to bypass a rule. As in, no hidden messages or shit like that. I will fuck you up for fucking with my game.

22) Win Mentality:

Play to win.

23) Policy:

Have fun. Or else. And remember, it's a game - keep it classy and don't take things personally; everyone's doing what they have to to win.

Hey almost, you're townreading nom right? I skimmed your iso a bit and saw it seemed like it was mostly from the volpe nightkill - can you explain that for me or if you've got other reasons for it lay that out for me? I'd agree that volpe isn't likely what nom-scum would want if you ignored the rest of a scumteam existing, but he was also one of the more highly townread people in the game at the time too.

Well, by tone.. by stances.. by her anger.. I mean, everything points to her being town here. I even searched her previous games and linked a scum game in our PT, and asked Ank to show me what similarities she sees in nom's play here to that game, and I don't think I got an answer from Ank.

Game I linked

Can someone please show me similarities to nom's play in that game and her play in this game?

I did a brief skim. Nom's play on the beginning of the second page of her iso looks pretty defensive (I'm assuming it's because people started questioning her reads). The defensiveness in that game looks a lot like her play today tbh. It's tough to tell exactly though, as she got vigged in that game instead of lynched.

Do you have any town games for comparison?

[EspressoPatronum]

Whups, didn't mean to quote post 0. My bad!

[EspressoPatronum]

Like if you're going to analyze my meta don't take ONE scum game and actually bother to look into other scumgames and other towngames instead of taking ONE game and confbiasing your ass off on it rofl

I mean, he asked me to look at the game and I did. I then asked for another game to compare. If you'd like to help out, please link more games instead of criticizing me.

I'm also not pushing your lynch today, so I'm not sure why you're so upset with my post.

[EspressoPatronum]

Idk I'm just annoyed in general

Fair enough... I just find toxicity extremely distasteful + I try to shut I down when I can. I'm sure some others are the same to some degree.

Maybe it'd help you if you stepped back a bit to get a fresh take on things. Forget about the wagon on you for now.

I have plenty of games you can check out idk just pick one and roll with it

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=79835 this one's a fun read and shows you how I can get as town.

Thanks for this! I'll check that out when I get the chance.

My biggest gripe with this game is I feel we're letting slots get away with [1]doing absolutely nothing, or [2]really scummy things. It just feels like [3]I'm getting scapegoated. [EP edit - numbers added]

1. I can see your first point here. Even gobble was saying that there's usually scum in the lurkers + we could consider looking there. I'm okay with working through some of the other slots first though.

2. I can't remember your stance. I know it's in your recent posts somewhere, but can you give me a TLDR?

3. Who is scapegoating you and why?

Pedit: I see you posted a bunch of stuff in the mean time. I don't feel like rewriting this in the event that you already covered something, so imma just send it anyway.

[EspressoPatronum]

You know what fuck it

VOTE: Panth

The more I think about this, the more it makes sense. Nobody has a good damn reason to townread here yet people were townreading Vex and then he faded into obscurity, panth replaces in, everyone ignores him. That's not normal.
Let's discuss this.

The panth/kuribo/MariaR hood thinks they're all-town, so that explains two reads for you right away.

I'm currently a fan of the 1 scum in the Directors (panth's hood) and 1 scum in the composer (Dave/DV) theory. I think the 1 scum in the Directors is MariaR though, which makes me townlean panth.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: DV

I reread his ISO. Not a fan of his early game + some of his more recent reads feel hedgy. Dave's ISO looks great in comparison.

@dave/DV are you able to use your LMS and inventor power on the same night?

[EspressoPatronum]

PEdit: Espresso, which reads do you find to be hedgy?

Your reads on me, A50, and FL.

You go back and forth between scumlean and townlean on them. I find that particularly concerning because:

My town core is A50 and FL rn

[EspressoPatronum]

Idk I’ve been pretty clear recently about thinking A50 is town?

You were back and forth on him all the way until the mid-late 3000s, at which point you listed him as the lowest of your townreads (so townlean?).

[EspressoPatronum]

the current scumlist I'm working on is:

Almost50
DeasVail
EspressoPatronum
Flavor Leaf

I don't necessary think that every other slot is town (annoyingly this game is still hard enough to parse that the things I've looked for leads from has only gotten me ONE OTHER townread I can be confident on) but those four slots are the ones standing out to me the most at this point.

So essentially you think our entire town core is scum (I’ve come around on EP, and don’t really see a point of their play at all if they’re scum) + DV.

Why are you thinking there’s 4 scum?

My team and I are also confused by Ank's scum list.

Gobble says it could be scum!Ank bussing DV.

[EspressoPatronum]

Idk I’ve been pretty clear recently about thinking A50 is town?

You were back and forth on him all the way until the mid-late 3000s, at which point you listed him as the lowest of your townreads (so townlean?).

Did you actually read my ISO or was it more of a skim/general impression?

Kind of a mix of a skim and in-depth.

I closely read your early game. The rest of my in-depth reading was to track your reads development on people I have a strong read on.

[EspressoPatronum]

I find it very cute that after I call them scum again, EP and FL spend half a page calling me scum

Ignoring posts like 4452 won't make them go away.

Call me scum all you like, but it's pretty clear you aren't actually engaging with me in good faith. The quoted potshot above is proof of that.

[EspressoPatronum]

if you think you can turn that into a scumcase, then by all means

In addition to your disingenuous pushes on me, I present the following:

You only vote safe wagons

How about the fact that you're always pushing the lowest resistance wagons?
D1 - Elements (town), EP
D2 - volxen (3p), EP, nom
D3 - FB, DEB, EP, nom

In the current gamestate, calling any of me, FB, nom, DEB scum isn't exactly a risky move. You've been doing the same thing in past days, too. Pushing Elements, volxen, me, and nom is past days was always safe. Even your #hotake today that nom is town came after the nom wagon started losing steam. Once again, a safe move that won't rock the boat.

This game is inconsistent with your town meta

You said:

[...]
if you looked at the three games I consider my strongest performances on the site as a whole (the three I gave are only from this year), you'll see that those games basically never feature a successful scum push from me.

My strongest town games come from me shutting down town lynches and reframing the town's mind from an incorrect one to a correct one

. doing this correctly basically puts town in a position where it doesn't even matter if I'm there or not, they will be able to close out the game and scum can't do anything without outing themselves.

Please show me how your gameplay here has been reframing the town perspective when you're consistently pushing easy wagons.

Your recent play has been the exact opposite of shutting down wagons. You're the main pusher behind most of your wagons. And before you cite the gamestate as an excuse, recall that we've only gotten 1 lynch so far. Elements for modkilled, so that's not on us.

You're dodging questions

When I call you out on your scummy behaviour, you either ignore me (4452) or deflect onto your team (see below).

Gobble wants to know why Ank is voting me today when she wanted nom as the counterwagon.

If Ank is town, doesn't that make nom look worse in Ank's eyes? Where does the vote on me come from?

I've mentioned already that a lot of why I'm on you is because two of my teammates specifically scumread you (dannflor) or want you lynched today (eddie cane)

I'm personally not townreading you and afaik they aren't thinking of nom anywhere near as scummy as you, so I'm ok with being swayed by that

You can find other instances of Ank dodging my questions on a brief skim through both our ISOs.

Your votes today are scummy

Every single one of your posts today has been taking safe bets.

VOTE: Dr Easy Bake

VOTE: nomnomnom

VOTE: Firebringer

fuck it we're killing this

VOTE: nomnomnom

As an aside

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

That post wasn't town

VOTE: nomnomnom

dann smacked my brain

UNVOTE: nomnomnom

I need to check some things

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

EC is on board with a50/FL/EP as scum
Dann thinks EP has the highest odds of flipping scum of the four

With the exception of your recent town!nom take (which again, came after the wagon started losing steam), I haven't seen you shut down any of these popular wagons.

Your purported town game is one of shutting down town mislynches and reorienting the town. Your gameplay today stands in stark contrast to these goals.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Ank Feel free to ignore that wall, too. People will forget about it in a few days + you can resume your discrediting campaign.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Ank

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm proud of you EP

I'm jaded enough to think this is a trap but naive enough to want to ask why.

[EspressoPatronum]

I can already tell you that AnkxEP and AnkxFL won't go anywhere lol
[...]

Why not?

Did you read my post about Ank? What do you think of her voting thus far?

[EspressoPatronum]

@MariaR @DV

What's your read on Ank + why?

[EspressoPatronum]

I think Ank is town here because of how she handled my slot.

Please elaborate when you can. The more detail the better.

[EspressoPatronum]

Specifically the part where she suddenly went on you when I was at L-2 or something felt extremely townie to me.

Is that it? That doesn't feel enough to push aside everything else she's done.

What do you make of her going on and off of your wagon several times? You can see all her votes today in my most recent wall post.

[EspressoPatronum]

@nom
Ank also didn't go on me "suddenly." She's been keeping me open as a lynch option all game.

When pressed on the reason why, she deflected onto her team's reads, citing a weak assumption on my volxen vote. She also failed to explain why her read on me changed so drastically between D1 and D2.

[EspressoPatronum]

I still want to lynch nom but I would lynch Deas as well

can we make wagons happen now plz we have two and a half days until deadline

i'll make a votecount later today if the mod hasn't by then

I'll go onto DV.

Gamma, can you do me a favour later today +/ tomorrow and take a closer look at Ank? You can look at my ISO for highlights of her scummy behaviour, but I also invite you to read through her ISO and come to your own conclusion.

VOTE: DV

[EspressoPatronum]

None of this os changing any of my takes so yeah this game is stagnant

Your recent takes seem limited to nom, DV, FB, and vex/panth (see below). Is there anyone else you'd like to include?

I'm curious to see how the recent discussion has affected your read on A50, FL, Ank, and me.

nom? probably town (tragic i know)
fb? idk. wouldn't be surprised if he was scum, but also not if he was town
dv? not sure how this isn't the definition of a) opportunism b) saying things that SOUNDS nice but really is bad

What happened here:

VOTE: dv

ugh

UNVOTE:

And why aren't you voting right now?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP
Yeah, I don't mind trying here. His content just doesn't make sense coming from town with the new angles he's taken to this game as I've explained before

You actually haven't fully explained your read on me. You usually just give a weak reason and then ask for why people TR me... I haven't seen a scumcase yet.

Example:

My EP scumread is the one that's hardest for me to get. Because it's based on his competence level. Sure, I liked our talk and I understand his reasoning now. But that first post was before it was even close to optimal. Why do people tr him?

Going back to your stance though:

His content just doesn't make sense coming from town with the new angles

What content, specifically? And what new angles?

[EspressoPatronum]

Can someone reiterate their case on EP? I think I would feel better with a DV wagon but I just haven't been following the case on EP at all

It's because there isn't one. Anyone with a hard SR on me keeps giving cagey answers at best.

[EspressoPatronum]

EC is on board with a50/FL/EP as scum

But you said he had a HARD TOWN READ on me earlier. Now what exactly has changed in "less than one complete cycle"?

I shat my thought process all over the discord

Having it in your discord doesn't help us at all.

Please walk us through your thought process.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't case people.

I've openly said your reasons for flipping your reads are clearly opportunistic. Using neighborhood logic to base a scumread on someone is awful. You used that to flip a strong townread on me to your biggest scumread. That doesn't just happen randomly and I've seen no progression from you at all. When I tried to get in your head and see why you think the rb hood had scum I explained and got no answer in return. When we had that long talk you were 'surprised' my read didn't change on you. I fully believe that was your attempt at trying to make me townread you and when that didn't happen you changed your read. Combine that with my previous points and there you go. I wanted to see if I was wrong on you because you and fl are in the same hood so you're probably not both scum, so obviously I'm wrong. I don't know where, but this is a better outcome.

Show me the question I avoided. As you'll see below, I've answered several (if not all) of your questions, despite you not doing so in return.

You realize my shift on your slot came after the roleblock and town investigative reveals, right? My progression on that is very clear in my ISO.

What other reads have I flipped (besides yours) and why were those flips opportunistic?

Why is using neighbourhood logic awful? You used it to townlock your whole neighbourhood, so I'm not sure why you're so against it when I use it.

Quotes below to prove my above points:

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

I have a lot to say but I’m busy today obviously so let me just ask. Why do you think our hood has scum EP?

I don't think your power or LMS suggests an all-town hood. In addition, I think the scenario below is likely:

I need to learn to read.

I don't believe in coincidences, this makes Maria look pretty bad.

How dare anyone not know on day 1 that Dave would claim on day 3 to be part of an investigative group


The nerve

I'm sure this is covered somewhere in the next few pages, but I'll answer anyway just in case.

Nom is suggesting that MariaR and one of Dave/DV are scum. The scum in the invest would would tell the scum in the RB hood to block the invest hood. I think A50 brought this up earlier.

Can you answer my question I asked you earlier?

@MariaR you keep asking me questions that I've already addressed. It's starting to feel like you're not even reading my posts.

I don't think your power or LMS suggests an all-town hood. In addition, I think the scenario below is likely:

I think our power and LMS is pretty likely an all town hood. All the powers were going to be outted at one point. Obviously you're going to leash the roleblocker. There's no reason for you to put scum in that hood considering the fact it'd be useless. However, I'm townreading both my hoodmates regardless.

About the 'below outcome' [1]who is likely to be scum in DV/Dave and [2]are you pushing for there lynch rn? [EP's edit - added numbers]

1. DV. I already said I'd vote him over Dave.
2. Not really... which you would know if you were reading my posts. Either you're skipping my posts or you already know the answer to your question. If it's the latter, you're just trying to set up a push on me.

I'd prefer a lynch in DV/dave over one in nom/FB for now.

My team will be catching up on this game over the next few days or so. I'll post a combined readslist after that.

As it stands:
I'd vote nom in the nom/FB pair.

I'd vote DEB in the DEB/Gamma pair.

I'd vote DV in the dave/DV pair.

I think 1 scum is in MariaR/kuribo/panth. I'm leaning MariaR.

I'm also still interested to hear your answer for:

[...]

Why didn't you ask this question to kuribo, dave, or FB when they outed their LMS?

[EspressoPatronum]

You actually haven't fully explained your read on me. You usually just give a weak reason and then ask for why people TR me... I haven't seen a scumcase yet.

This is also openly false.

Quote the posts

[EspressoPatronum]

You actually haven't fully explained your read on me. You usually just give a weak reason and then ask for why people TR me... I haven't seen a scumcase yet.

This is also openly false.

Quote the posts

Click my iso. I've openly been calling you a scumread for most of this game I'm not gonna go cherry pick my own posts when I've said why you're scum before.

I said you have not fully explained your read of me. You said that is false. I asked you to quote the posts (ie. Prove that my statement is false).

Not only did you fail to quote any posts supporting your claim, you also tried to move the benchmark for what were arguing. Calling me scum is not the same as explaining your read on me.

You're asking me to reread your ISO to find something that I've already stated isn't there.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Show me the question I avoided. As you'll see below, I've answered several (if not all) of your questions, despite you not doing so in return.

You answered the First and second question I asked. But when I gave you a reason why the all roleblock hood is unlikely to be scum you just, didn’t comment and that’s something I would expect you to do if that’s your reason for flipping it.

I told you why I thought the roleblock hood likely had scum in it. You told me why you disagreed. Both points are speculative.... did you want me to disagree with you again? What more is there to say on the matter?

Why is using neighbourhood logic awful? You used it to townlock your whole neighbourhood, so I'm not sure why you're so against it when I use it.

You’re using mechs to scumread me. While I’m using

actions

people do and the

play

itself. We’re not even doing anything close to the same thing.

My mech read informed me that one of your hood was scum. Your night actions (ie. Pushing dave's block twice in a row) in addition to your play toward of my slot informed my scumread of you specifically.

It's the same.

You realize my shift on your slot came after the roleblock and town investigative reveals, right? My progression on that is very clear in my ISO.

Yet you never made any comment on that.

First of all we don’t even know what kind of invest it is, or who they gave it to. If scum are in that hood like you believe why couldn’t we just scum kill whoever was getting voted? Combine that with the fact, if I am scum with someone in that hood obviously I wouldn’t be the one to bring it up because that would leave a clear link to me and the scum in the invest one. That’s, just basic mafia. I feel like you’re just trying to find something to latch onto over thinking of the possibilities like you love to do so much.

We do know what kind of invest it is. It's an inventor who gives investigator items. They haven't given it to anyone because you roleblocked them twice in a row.

Dave brought it up, not you. He asked why his hood's action on chenn failed twice in a row. You were basically forced to admit that you strongarmed the dave RBs, as your hood would have outed you if you didn't. As you said, that's just basic mafia.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]It's annoying, because one of you are probably town cause 2 scum in a doctor hood makes no sense. I want to find who that is but when neither of you are giving me much to work with it's kinda hard.

ANY scum in the doctor hood makes no sense. Our LMS is also terrible for scum.

It's honestly one of the only hoods in this game in which having scum in it breaks the role.

[EspressoPatronum]

and ftr

I joined when I did because EC pinged me

so (:

And yet you haven't given us a detailed reasoning behind the ping. You said some shaky information about my lynch on volxen being TMI.

You also seemed to forget that you had a strong scumread on me in D1.

This is the same behaviour from you that I demonstrated in my case on you.

[EspressoPatronum]

Ep, if scum are in the inventor hood and I am scum with them. The mafia team would know who the invention is going to and could kill them. Or, the mafia in that hood simply has to convince the others to vote a mafia etc etc.

If the maf killed the specific inventor target, that'd draw serious heat to the inventor hood. Better to just roleblock the hood to avoid that problem.... oh wait!

It's distinct from a scum in the doc hood, as doctors typically miss most of their saves. There would be almost no way of me/Elements/FL knowing scum was in our hood. This would allow scum to always dodge the doc target.

Saying it is as simple as I strongman'd my hood into role blocking that hood when I could have waited for someone else to suggest something etc, is silly.

Strongman was your word, not mine. I've quoted the post below for your convenience. You had no problem stating it that simply in 3898... what's the fuss now?

Why is it so unlikely that town me wanted to just block dave? I even brought up the suggestion of not using the block (even if I felt it was wrong at the time)

Like, the path you're going down to me feels so silly because it's obvious a connection would be drawn if that's the thing. It makes me feel like if Dave or DV are scum it's setting me up for a ML
pedit: More mech talk.

I'm giving you enough credit to assume you would know that blocking the same hood twice in a row is a bad idea. The first block on the inventor hood could be coincidence. The second was intentional.

As mentioned above,

you

said this, not me.

Btw I have been the one to strongman Dave roleblocks yes I can conf that.
I might ask for it again. We'll see how I feel
pedit: Kuri pls, I get you're mad (rightfully so) but Ank is town

[EspressoPatronum]

If I were scum, you wouldn’t be scum reading me, and Maria would have been dead a long time ago.

if I were scum, I wouldn't need to piss around changing my PoE every 5 pages

yet you're ignoring that too

You keep saying your behaviour this game would be beneath scum!you.

Enlighten me... what isn't beneath scum!Ank?

[EspressoPatronum]

you know I think there's scum involved in this exchange considering how passionate this discussion is

I wanted to give you a gold star, but the ! was the best I could manage.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm giving you enough credit to assume you would know that blocking the same hood twice in a row is a bad idea. The first block on the inventor hood could be coincidence. The second was intentional.

I brought it up night 1
I was not the one who made the suggestion to do the same night 2. However, I was fine with it considering you know. I figured anyone from the inventor hood after night 1 would've said 'hey guys don't block our hood' (because they're told when it fails/roleblocked) I assumed since no one from the inventor hood said anything it was perfectly safe to block them again.

So let me get this straight.

You repeatedly criticized my post of outing hoods *distribution* (again, not powers) because you thought it was bad and gave too much information.

And you are now blaming the inventor hood for not full outing on D2 because their action didn't work?

Wow.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm giving you enough credit to assume you would know that blocking the same hood twice in a row is a bad idea. The first block on the inventor hood could be coincidence. The second was intentional.

I brought it up night 1
I was not the one who made the suggestion to do the same night 2. However, I was fine with it considering you know. I figured anyone from the inventor hood after night 1 would've said 'hey guys don't block our hood' (because they're told when it fails/roleblocked) I assumed since no one from the inventor hood said anything it was perfectly safe to block them again.

So let me get this straight.

You repeatedly criticized my post of outing hoods *distribution* (again, not powers) because you thought it was bad and gave too much information.

And you are now blaming the inventor hood for not full outing on D2 because their action didn't work?

Wow.

No, I'm saying Dave, the person we blocked. Or someone from the hood could've been like 'hey don't block us' and that would've stopped the n2 block that I once again didn't suggest. They didn't say anything so in my mind that was a safe block. I know in my mind if I was an invest hood and we got blocked I'd out that right away. Now that your point has been disproven you're going down yet another path? Alright.

If we had outed distribution when I suggested we should, we could have avoided this problem. Saving it until D3 didn't do anything for us anyway. I'm not sure what you mean about a disproven point.

It also doesn't help that the Composer hood didn't know they were roleblocked. As you know, roleblocked targets are usually informed their action failed (but not specifically why). That could mean any number of things to the Composers. It's an unfair assumption that they would out on D2 in response to a failed action.

When you say "someone from the hood" could've asked to not get blocked, you're aware that Farkran was dead at that point, right? So it was either dave or DV who would need to out. And again, that's in response to a failed action.

[EspressoPatronum]

YOU MEAN THE GAMESTATE THAT MADE US LYNCH ONLY TOWN AND WE WERE ABOUT TO LYNCH A THIRD

This is a FALSE statement. This town has yet to make a single mislynch. We only lynched 3P on D2 and D1 ended with a NL because of the modkill.

Good catch.

Ank and MariaR have been pushing the whole, "we're going to lose" angle btw.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: MariaR

[EspressoPatronum]

YOU MEAN THE GAMESTATE THAT MADE US LYNCH ONLY TOWN AND WE WERE ABOUT TO LYNCH A THIRD

This is a FALSE statement. This town has yet to make a single mislynch. We only lynched 3P on D2 and D1 ended with a NL because of the modkill.

Day 1 was leading to a town lynch considering the people about to be lynched were Nom and I believe Ank, but keep going A50.

Is this TMI or are you THAT sure we're both town

Just gonna remind of you this gem here. Others have already pointed out its scumminess, but I thought it fit nicely with the TMI angle you just raised.

Alright, we need to lynch nom.
VOTE: Nom
For information sake because if nom is town and that's what I think I really wanna see some peoples reasoning for scumreading nom and they can't hide behind that if nom is dead. Nom can't make it to LYLO period. I think there's some really scummy people on the nom wagon but the only way I'm gonna convince certain people is if we take care of this first.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]It's annoying, because one of you are probably town cause 2 scum in a doctor hood makes no sense. I want to find who that is but when neither of you are giving me much to work with it's kinda hard.

ANY scum in the doctor hood makes no sense. Our LMS is also terrible for scum.

It's honestly one of the only hoods in this game in which having scum in it breaks the role.

It bears mention that ensuring roles / LMS are

not

used is one of the potential functions for scum to be in a hood to begin with.

If I die and FL doesn't use the lightning rod before the commuters die, that's 100% a scum claim.

If FL dies, I'm using the lightning rod as soon as possible.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm giving you enough credit to assume you would know that blocking the same hood twice in a row is a bad idea. The first block on the inventor hood could be coincidence. The second was intentional.

I brought it up night 1
I was not the one who made the suggestion to do the same night 2. However, I was fine with it considering you know. I figured anyone from the inventor hood after night 1 would've said 'hey guys don't block our hood' (because they're told when it fails/roleblocked) I assumed since no one from the inventor hood said anything it was perfectly safe to block them again.

So let me get this straight.

You repeatedly criticized my post of outing hoods *distribution* (again, not powers) because you thought it was bad and gave too much information.

And you are now blaming the inventor hood for not full outing on D2 because their action didn't work?

Wow.

Wanted to succinctly reply to the original post before also commenting on this one.
Furthermore the person who eventually did out the information argued against distribution information right from the start. Remember that big discussion I had d1 on this topic? I'd be interested to know which side Maria was on d1, or if a position was even stated.

MariaR was vehemently against my position of outing hood distribution.

That's why her asking for the inventors to out D2 is so weird.

[EspressoPatronum]

Right, but I don't remember when she started having that opinion.

D2 began around 2000
I posted my outing theory around 2100
MariaR made her anti-outing sentiment known mid-2200 (see below)

That's all early D2.

[...]

TL;DR knowing hood members might help us out in the long run. Sharing this info is low risk because scum already knows the information anyway.

Outting who has a hood with each other was stupid in the first place but considering we did some of that day 1 it’s kinda late for that.

But I don’t see any reason to fully do it and just put ourself out on a line like that.

There's plenty more like that in her iso in the early 2000s.

[EspressoPatronum]

@dave I decided to quote some of the others.

Check out the spoiler below.

Spoiler:

What I realized is that people deflected really quickly from the proposition to lynch in the commuter hood and pointed fingers everywhere else. Interesting.

This would be interesting if people did want to start lynching in it considering you said really stupid information.

I think we should also out neighbors in general. Not the powers, just the composition of the neighborhoods.

This is so bad oh my lord why do we want this outted exactly? We know what neighborhood people flip in it's not like people will be 'hidden' as the last member. You're just giving scum easy access to not give the last standing powers to whoever they want.

+1 to Kuris scum read on EP

I'ma bash my head on a wall

The issue was we should've never outted hoods. That gives scum a lot more control over the 'last stand' powers. And as we can see those are pretty good. Combine that with the fact some people aren't playing and the town hasn't really had a solid gameplan for ages we're going down this snowball of a hill that will not fix itself unless something happens. Normally, I wouldn't care but it's team mafia and this is like, the important game so I kinda have to care.

This town has no teamwork
it's focusing on mechs and I hate that
we talked about NKA and I hate that.
We outted hoods and thats' a pro scum move. We're like checking off more stuff that sucks.

Wanna know what I'd love to do rn? Play some mafia. Let's talk about EP let's talk about Dave let's talk about the fact the commuter hood keeps getting brought up when their power is 'rly good' is rly rly scummy. Anyone with me? No? Okay.

For the 4th (maybe 5th) time.
Ep has proven they're a competent/smart player just with posting alone. So, if we look at their early posts with the awful push onAnk that I already explained. Combined with the 'scum have a chat thing' that I never will believe. I think he's just playing dumb and doesn't really believe the stuff he's saying. Outting the neighborhoods is wrong I've said why before. EP asked me to explain but I already have done that. What more am I supposed to do? His responses to the hint of pressure before were weak as well. I just don't like their posts and don't think it's real. Why am I wrong?

[EspressoPatronum]

Did anything important happen in that burst of posts earlier?

Yes. MariaR is scum.

[EspressoPatronum]

I still want to lynch nom but I would lynch Deas as well

can we make wagons happen now plz we have two and a half days until deadline

i'll make a votecount later today if the mod hasn't by then

I'll go onto DV.

Gamma, can you do me a favour later today +/ tomorrow and take a closer look at Ank? You can look at my ISO for highlights of her scummy behaviour, but I also invite you to read through her ISO and come to your own conclusion.

VOTE: DV

i did this

Thanks for doing this!

Overall, what's your read of Ank right now?

my conclusion is that your case is dumb b/c easy lynches aren't necessarily bad/town lynches and ank fairly clearly wants you dead and saying 'I think EP is scum for his attacks on me assuming nom-town' isn't a very scummy way of expressing a scumread on you

My point is that her stances on the lynches are inconsistent with her self-proclaimed and meta-confirmed town playstyle. She says she shuts down town lynches, but she repeatedly attacks 'political' targets that won't rock the boat.

Ank's reasoning for the SR against me is still unclear, so I don't think you can distill it down to "I think EP is scum for his attacks on me assuming nom-town." Thus far, she's relied heavily on unexplained reasoning from her teammates (note - she did the same thing with the A50 read).

and also that ignoring some of your posts is alignment neutral because it is was an active fight to keep my eyes from glazing over when I read over your response to some of Ank's postings

Ignoring posts about a third party is different from ignoring posts about yourself. She is ignoring posts that are directed to and specifically about her.

if ank is scum imo it'll be because of the people she's attacking/defending today and their alignment and atm there are not nearly enough flips to know that yet

Fair point. What are your thoughts on MariaR, me, and FL? More specifically, what do you think of her treatment of our slots?

[EspressoPatronum]

Maria I might CAPSPOST at for having the stupidest reason to townread nom I've seen all game but I don't want to lynch her

On the other hand, lynching her might be able to help you with sorting Ank, me, and FL.

She's also scummy, so that's a plus.

[EspressoPatronum]

I’m still going to advocate for a nom lynch.

How about MariaR instead?

[EspressoPatronum]

If I were scum, you wouldn’t be scum reading me, and Maria would have been dead a long time ago.

if I were scum, I wouldn't need to piss around changing my PoE every 5 pages

yet you're ignoring that too

You keep saying your behaviour this game would be beneath scum!you.

Enlighten me... what isn't beneath scum!Ank?

if the gamestate is focused on killing a bunch of town and there's very little risk of being lynched for staying quiet

then why would I bother not staying quiet

Gobble wants to know who the game state was going to kill without your influence. Was it nom?

[EspressoPatronum]

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Woa, now I REALLY don't want to lynch any commuters.

Lynching a commuter before one of me/FL dies means we don't get a no-kill night from our LMS hood.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: DV

@Mod I'll be V/LA until Feb 3