TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[Menalque]

I just realize that means if all my townreads are right its Chennis/Flops/Mena

Ahh yes, I’m going for the classic “put both your partners in the PoE and then push them” scum flag game gambit

[Menalque]

I just realize that means if all my townreads are right its Chennis/Flops/Mena

Ahh yes, I’m going for the classic “put both your partners in the PoE and then push them” scum flag game gambit

[Menalque]

I just realize that means if all my townreads are right its Chennis/Flops/Mena

Ahh yes, I’m going for the classic “put both your partners in the PoE and then push them” scum flag game gambit

from ur perspective im doing that as well so don't know what ur talking about.

U are not integral to my solve, it’s entirely plausible it’s chenn/infinity/flopz

[Menalque]

Oh, and I haven’t cleared johnny either

[Menalque]

I think AL is town for having the most controversial hot takes

Ahh yes that controversial hot take that *checks notes* nobody bar super strongly disagrees with

[Menalque]

I just realize that means if all my townreads are right its Chennis/Flops/Mena

Ahh yes, I’m going for the classic “put both your partners in the PoE and then push them” scum flag game gambit

from ur perspective im doing that as well so don't know what ur talking about.

U are not integral to my solve, it’s entirely plausible it’s chenn/infinity/flopz

I am very hurt that u don't think im important.

I’m just saying my very funny dodgeball gif only applies to you believing I can be scum with (chenn, flopz) whereas my solve doesn’t require thinking there’s any bizarro bussing taking place at all

[Menalque]

Flopz is the slot everyone has in their scumreads. Would you compromise for a Flopz elim, Menalque

No, no compromise, we pick between the blocs today to see which is right

[Menalque]

That means either we elim in me/super or we kill who me/super want

[Menalque]

Compromising in a game where scum aren’t gonna bus is not a good plan, c’mon auro

[Menalque]

2) Really? That'd be news to me

3) Really? Not losing would be news to me

I mean these are very literally the only outcomes if we elim super and then infinity

[Menalque]

Menalque the way that ur so sure of ur solve and want to do things ur way makes me super annoyed because its the kind of thing that comes from town more often than not

I wanted to be chill and have a nice calm and cooperative game but that ain’t fuckin happening so if that means I have to be an ass who sits here and insists that there will be no compromise in any circumstance then that’s who I’m gonna be this game

[Menalque]

Why don’t you vote me and find out if you think my townflip doesn’t do anything to enhance super’s credibility tomorrow?

[Menalque]

Menalque the way that ur so sure of ur solve

Also this is not totally true

I think very strongly that infinity is scum and nobody is listening

Therefore I’m willing to do whatever it takes to make people listen to that

This isn’t hard, that can include me dying/super dying if it leads to an infinity kill

HOWEVER I’m also aware that I /could/ be the one who’s totally wrong here and that super is scum and I’m really fucking up. It has happened before, anuket topaz the open game is a good example. As a hedge against that, I’m willing to check if my TR is right provided that new info then means it’s impossible to continue to ignore me

Obviously I would prefer to kill super out of me/her if it has to go down that way, but like I’m p confident on her and so I’m willing to be the sacrificial lamb if it has to go down that way

[Menalque]

2) Really? That'd be news to me

3) Really? Not losing would be news to me

I mean these are very literally the only outcomes if we elim super and then infinity

Super is scum, Super town infinity scum, or Super town Infinity town are the only options, yes. Isn't math great

Btw "that'd be news to me" in the second case meant "if you actually got ppl to take u seriously after pulling the 'OK LETS KILL MY TR but but but we ALSO kill my SR after' shit"

It would be exceptionally dumb not to and I don’t get why you’re making out that this is a weird thing for people to do

[Menalque]

Are you really going with the line of “yes mena, after you’ve been demonstrably proved right about a slot that multiple other people were wrong about, and now want to guillo the slot that the CONFIRMED TOWN player ALSO WANTED TO KILL people will be /less likely/ to listen to you”

[Menalque]

Like how is that a thought process you’re actually having

[Menalque]

Also I'm assuming that your offer went both ways - you're okay with an elim on yourself if Super gets to lead D2, correct?

Yes, but I would say that if infinity not scum probably do seriously re-examine her again on D3

I don’t think it means she is necessarily scum if infinity is not, but would remiss not to double check it

[Menalque]

That means either we elim in me/super or we kill who me/super want

Just putting this out - if you/Super are town and AL is also town this would leave scum in a

very

convenient position

True

Good thing infinity isn’t town hey?

[Menalque]

But real talk, given that it’s a flag game town should still have a decent chance of winning even if we are all 3 town

It’s the people who stood on the sidelines and supported the plan while being mildly critical of it who are prob scum in a world where all 3 of us are town

[Menalque]

I don’t think it puts us in a worse position than we’re in now because I fully intend to deathtunnel infinity until he’s dead and scumflipped or we’re both dead

That includes an insta vote in lylo if we ever get there

I have no interest in bothering with anyone else beyond whether they’re willing to vote infinity with me or to vote me and then kill infinity tomorrow

[Menalque]

I have a blazing desire

NAY, a

need

to bathe this thread in infinity’s blood

My lust for his entrails cannot be sated by anything other than execution with a big choppy boi that does its work on he or I

[Menalque]

There can be no compromise, there can be no talk of guillotining elsewhere until the scumfuck is dead or I in his place

[Menalque]

Now, I’m gonna go eat my salad and try to get some sleep

[Menalque]

I can’t sleep yet but I think I am gonna sign out because I just wrote out a slightly longer post than this one and it wasn’t very nice

I’m very frustrated with literally everyone apart from super and I guess johnny, but especially with chennis who I feel is being intentionally obtuse this game if he’s not scum (I guess he can be doing that as scum too but then I’m less annoyed because he’s just playing to wincon)

[Menalque]

auro do you have a read on me?

everyone's reads on me now feel lazy, I think I efforted too hard and now I have no one to yell at for not townreading me properly

For what it’s worth I no longer have a great deal of faith in you being town, or if you are then I at the very least have no faith in you being someone I can successfully work with!

[Menalque]

Super let’s just play tic tac toe once u get back and ignore everyone else

[Menalque]

We can talk about it later lilith, I’m not in the mood and the first draft of this post is why I really need to sign out

[Menalque]

Yeah I’m going sorry if I was veering into toxicity here really wasn’t my intention when I signed up to play this game

[Menalque]

Apologies if I’ve been overly harsh I really like everyone here outside of the context of this game (yes, even you koba)

[Menalque]

Infin - got that LHF property a bit. Seems like everyone's down to lim. Would rather not vote

Run me through how this is in any way true when there are 2.5 slots willing to vote infinity in the entire PL

[Menalque]

Johnny you say everyone is down to elim Autumn??? huh? it's literally just Mena and I right now

God I fuckin love that you’re here

[Menalque]

@mena I think it bears repeating that I'm working probably 12-15 hour days 6 days a week right now and have zero mental energy to parse anything like what you and infinity posted at each other today. I will get to it when I have time/brainpower. once I feel comfortable actually being in a place in this game I will, like, put myself on a wagon or add my momentum somewhere. telling me to blindly sheep isn't going to convince me to do anything. sorry if you feel frustrated but like that is not who I am. I'll stop there.

@auro see above. no.

for what it's worth I have been working on multiple theories of why this game is turning out the way it is but again, minimal brainpower available.

actually, no, I think this is also worth saying:

you've just told me that I'm not someone you can successfully work with but tbh I feel like you've just expected me to say "okay!" and cave and do whatever you want - and you're more interested in making what

you

want happen than in actually working together. and that's representative of your entire attitude this game. you're not the town leader just because you said so. if you actually want me/people to work with you then you can't demand everyone obey and expect that we will.

Okay, so I think there are two things I’d like to address here regarding you @lili

Firstly, the frustration. The post I wanted to make could basically have been summed up as “I’m finding this game very frustrating because I think there is obvscum present, I think I’ve tried to be reasonable and to explain why, I’ve checked that I’m not being biased by running it past my team who also think infinity is just terrible terrible terrible this game, and nobody will support my push on scum despite the reasons for /not/ doing so being incredibly weak — added to this, I think I’ve been very towny, I don’t think anything I’m doing makes much sense for me to do as scum unless you think my scumgame is literally purely bluffing (which it’s demonstrably not from previous examples) and if I were scum there are almost certainly paths of less resistance for me to take”.

I know you haven’t really been able to get into the game, and that’s partly why I’m frustrated — it felt like you were being resistant to TRing me for reasons that I don’t get, and on top of that you weren’t willing to give me a chance by sheeping me even to the point of being the third vote on a wagon I was and am very confident is on scum. Generally, when I want people to work with me, that doesn’t mean I want to be blind sheeped — but when I’m actively asking someone to help me apply pressure somewhere, they’re not voting elsewhere, and they’re saying they think X is scummy then I find it very frustrating when I don’t get material support. Especially when I was attempting to offer you a deal in the form of backing flopz tomorrow if you helped me with infinity today.

I don’t think I just expect people to obey when I say something. But I do think I’ve given strong reasons for why infinity is scum, nobody has given a good refutation of those reasons, nobody is willing to vote him despite that, and I think that the lack of ability for him to pick up votes is also very scum!indicative given that if only 2 town can not identify scum (and I’m confident that we have one who is unable to do so, aka koba) then only one other town needs to be wrong, provided scum won’t bus, and it becomes impossible to elim scum.

to try to collect some of my thoughts into coherent sentences:

I don’t think it’s fair for mena to take potshots at people who aren’t doing what he wants. I saw he apologized but I feel like his post was supposed to make me feel guilty that I wasn’t trying hard enough to please him or something. I really dislike feeling guilt tripped.

I wanted to address this separately — it wasn’t an attempt to make you guilty. It was a very earnest frustration which I think I’ve explained the reasons for above. I’m still finding it annoying, but my intention wasn’t to make you feel bad or to manipulate you into supporting what I want. I wouldn’t do that, and I’m sorry you think I would. I’d yell at you maybe, if I was scum and wanted to get you to do a thing, but I wouldn’t try to guilt you into it. I’m aware you probably can’t trust this but I’ll repeat it postgame, guilt is not my style.

[Menalque]

Johnny you say everyone is down to elim Autumn??? huh? it's literally just Mena and I right now

God I fuckin love that you’re here

what do you think of Johnny? their post was so bad idk whether they're bad town or scummy as fuck

I think it looks bad that he still isn’t voting infinity when the reason he gave for not voting there is demonstrably untrue and has been for a /while/

[Menalque]

Stop raging at town and try to play the game or we are going to LOSE and we are going to DESERVE IT.

No

You

are going to deserve it, if you’re town, which I doubt

Super and I are not going to deserve it at all given that we want to flip scum and the rest of town is /at best/ being obstructivist

[Menalque]

Actually no you're just scum Menalque and you're just buddying the easiest target

Lmao okay

chenny

[Menalque]

You haven't done jack shit other than suck up to Super this entire game

Are you lying or did you just forget how to read

[Menalque]

Correction: You havent done shit other than refuse to cooperate with anyone not named Super

Yeah okay

chennis

sure thing

chennis

[Menalque]

You know why you’re scum chennis

[Menalque]

Because unless you magically became super fucking incompetent while you were away from site then you’re too good to not know that I’m town and infinity is scum

And I could tie myself into knots trying to make up excuses for how you’re playing like this “oh maybe he’s out of practice” “oh maybe it’s a bad game for him” but occam’s is the answer and occam’s is that you’re playing like you have a scum agenda BECAUSE you have a scum agenda

[Menalque]

Also, fucking own that shit instead of coming up with bullshit like “oh btw guys treat this as NAI but be nice <3 pls <3 look how reasonable I am compared to nasty >:( shouty Menalque!! Listen to me instead!!!! But it’s NAI btw”

[Menalque]

Like I guess firebringer could be scum but it makes more sense that he’s the one playing badly and you’re the one who’s scum

[Menalque]

Koba should be banned for playing against wincon but sadly it’s not provable to the standard the mods will ask for but everyone should report them postgame

[Menalque]

Johnny and flopz are both useless, no offence

Lilith isn’t here

And auro has apparently lost any ability to actually act rather than sit there and talk endlessly

[Menalque]

stop making the game unfun

You signed up to play a game, fucking vote for scum and stop voting town then

I won’t be shamed for coming to play the game

I tried to be nice and this town was too fucking incompetent to listen

[Menalque]

No

[Menalque]

Elim me or elim infinity I don’t give a fuck

[Menalque]

I’m not going to stop demanding that scum be killed unless you kill me

[Menalque]

I will do this every fucking day that I am here nonstop until infinity is eliminated or I am

[Menalque]

I frankly don’t give a fuck if it makes the game less fun, what makes the game less fun for me is the fucking incompetence that means that 2.5 votes are on scum

[Menalque]

So instead of trying to convince everyone that infinity is scum.

Yeah cause there’s a whole lot of point talking to brick walls or scum

[Menalque]

I’m being voted by 4 people none of whom believe I’m scum lmao

Yeah this game is so much fun for me

If nobody gives a shit about my experience of the game I should care about anyone else’s... why precisely?

[Menalque]

As opposed to going down pushing scum correctly so that postgame I can fucking ream everyone who did not vote with me here

[Menalque]

Everyone should play better then

[Menalque]

The way I win games as scum is by letting the kind of people who would screw over the entire thread think I'm scum, that way they get removed from the game - either in spirit or by forceful ejection

This is just an open scumclaim lmao

[Menalque]

It’s p obviously just you scum claiming

[Menalque]

The way I win games as scum is by letting the kind of people who would screw over the entire thread think I'm scum, that way they get removed from the game - either in spirit or by forceful ejection

This is just an open scumclaim lmao

And I dont see a wagon forming on me buddy

Do I look like I give a fuck

It’s immaterial to me if I’m eliminated today because at least I no longer have to play in this clusterfuck game

And if I need to die for people to see that you and infinity are both just scum so be it

[Menalque]

Pro tip: if nobody is taking your case seriously, maybe it's you who needs to be more convincing, not them who needs to be "better at the game."

Do you think you come out of this looking good tomorrow lmao

[Menalque]

Keep baiting me chen

It looks good for you now, it won’t when I’m conftown and once I’m conftown then at least 3 players will take me seriously

[Menalque]

Whether those 3 can then corral the rest of this motly bunch into limming infinity then you remains to be seen but I guess we’ll find out

[Menalque]

Gonna be fascinating to see how infinity tries to argue he’s not scum once I’m conftown

[Menalque]

Also, fucking own that shit instead of coming up with bullshit like “oh btw guys treat this as NAI but be nice <3 pls <3 look how reasonable I am compared to nasty >:( shouty Menalque!! Listen to me instead!!!! But it’s NAI btw”

I was shutting you down for being a dick, not because I wanted to discredit your views

If you want your views not to get shut down so easily maybe try being easier to work with. That way I can't default to "ignore menalque he's being a dick" if you raise valid points.

Yeah sure you were

chennis

That’s bullshit because you started trying to shut me down long before I ever started acting like a dick

From the *checks notes* moment I started pushing your scumbuddy infinity lmao

You used what was a perfectly reasonable point about koba having form on having no fucking idea how to read me (and it’s lowkey disgusting that they’re playing to oog reasons and against wincon) to freeze me and super out for “having bad vibes” or “something being off” and in turn you used that to discredit the push on infinity without having a good reason for doing so

[Menalque]

Again that’s just a straight fucking scum agenda right there and you’re trying to hide it behind a concern for niceness

Own what you’re doing

[Menalque]

Gonna be fascinating to see how infinity tries to argue he’s not scum once I’m conftown

By the way if you die here it's nobody's fault but your own, so cut the act out, stat.

Yes so scum!me has what incentive to act this way again?

And yet you’re still acting like I could be scum lmao

This is what I meant when I said you’re too competent to believe I’m really scum here

You’re scum, res ipsa loquitor

[Menalque]

The "bad vibes" were because you were being actively toxic.

This is just a lie

Find one post where I’d been actively toxic at that point

That didn’t start until well later, and any toxicity I’ve had this game has been for the sake of my win condition

[Menalque]

Now I remember why towngames are so freaking awful, thanks

If you can’t handle towngames, don’t play

[Menalque]

I don’t care if you’re annoyed with me or not I care about whether you’re voting scum or not

[Menalque]

Please, tell me how you look good for knowingly voting town tomorrow lmao

[Menalque]

I’ll wait

[Menalque]

I may have misremembered and conflated you with Super, but the main point is I only started shutting you down when you started being actively toxic

That’s a lie

[Menalque]

I'm also going to point out that mena's play is wildly unethical because there's no way he would be doing this as scum, so it basically makes him confirmed town, and he's aware of this, but I'm not complaining ig

Say whatever you want infinity you brought this on yourself when you thought you could get away with shitpushing me in bad faith once I repped into what was a dead slot

[Menalque]

You know what fuck it

Nobody had any interest in working with me anyway

I’m leaving my vote on infinity and will do so every day I’m alive until he’s dead or I am but I’ll leave thread and just prod dodge until one of those two outcomes occurs

[Menalque]

You can all play pow-wow in the meantime and have your nice little fun game

[Menalque]

cuz they're 100% scum

Gonna look forward to having 2 games to cite in future about how you have no idea what you’re doing and not the vaguest clue in hell of how to read me!

[Menalque]

I did not want this chennis, no matter what you may think

I always come in wanting to have a friendly game insofar as it is possible

This game it’s not been possible, and yeah that’s probably my fault, but it’s also largely down to how people decided to try and engage with or manage my slot, with you, koba, and infinity being three of the worst culprits

[Menalque]

I’m taking a day or two away from the thread to get some breathing room and to let everything calm down. See you guys in 24-48 hrs

[Menalque]

I’m still reading but am planning to basically continue staying away for another day

I think lilith is very town but not really for her effort posting earlier this week

[Menalque]

I don’t think that’s true, she took a long time to start thinking about koba being scum even as he was tunnelling her

[Menalque]

Auro - I'm sorry if ur town I'm just rly paranoid abt ur slot because I still remember ur scumgame. If you're scum, which I think you are, idk, out your partners, pretty please

This feels very performative, chenn

I also don’t think koba!slot has high chances of being scum for how they approached super!slot and me, but I do think they have some chances of being scum for it

[Menalque]

Firebringer’s willingness to vote wherever without any reasons is concerning

[Menalque]

We’ve done like 50 pages or something since I repped in and very little has fundamentally changed for me

(Super!slot, lilith, auro) I have no interest in doing today
Probably not koba!slot either
Johnny and flopz feel like compromise slots and I don’t wanna do a compromise today

Leaves (infinity, fb, chenn) as the group I’d like to execute in

[Menalque]

Firebringer’s willingness to vote wherever without any reasons is concerning

Doesn't that mean i would also be willing to buss then on the same reasoning.

No, I don’t think it does

There are some slots you’ve been resistant to voting, like infinity

[Menalque]

I do think Johnny could be scum, but I still think the reasons for infinity being scum are valid

And if Johnny flips town I feel like a lot is left unresolved going into tomorrow, whereas if infinity flips town then my model of the game is very wrong and I can start re-evaluating things

[Menalque]

Firebringer’s willingness to vote wherever without any reasons is concerning

Doesn't that mean i would also be willing to buss then on the same reasoning.

No, I don’t think it does

There are some slots you’ve been resistant to voting, like infinity

Then i guess im not just willing to vote "Wherever"

That’s not accurate, you’re twisting what I’m saying

I think you’re willing to vote wherever in terms of a number of slots without much reasoning, but then you’re highly resistant on a couple of slots

I think that’s very much a scum voting pattern, especially in a game where bussing is disincentivised

Like I feel you don’t care about whether (me, Johnny, flopz) are scum or not, but you won’t vote infinity regardless of evidence

[Menalque]

@chennis so you think lilith is bussing flopz..?

[Menalque]

If she’s not bussing him then how could she be TMIing him

[Menalque]

I talking about your take on 1896 from the bottom of your 2728

[Menalque]

Like that’s a very hard scumread she’s expressing there and you say it’s TMI

I don’t get how it can be TMI unless you think lilith is bussing him

[Menalque]

I think auro has been fine and don’t see any reasons for him to be scum other than paranoia, and I’m not interested in indulging a paranoia vote on D1

And the reason you just gave for auro!scum is equally applicable to fb’s votes

[Menalque]

@lilith just ooi have you ever done this baiting thing before when you’ve been town?

[Menalque]

i mean not really u said i wasnt willing to vote slots u added qualifier about without reasons which i could have said was wrong i think eliminating in null slots could be telling and i gave that reason for going into those players, u might think its shit. U might think its not valid but its not no reasoning.

i am very open to a number of eliminations right now of those who i don't strong townread to get an elimination and get some info for me to make decisions. I think eliminating anyone will give us info. Even if it in peoples "i have no read here" cause then we analyze who gives most resistance, who pushed it most, etc.

and i gave plenty of reason to be hesistant on infinity.

Fine I guess I should have said based on dubious and unbelievable reasoning that I think scum would make up to justify their voting habits, that’s functionally the same as having no reason

If i say “think it’s gonna rain today” and you ask why and I say “well the angle of Jupiter is perpendicular to the purple rabbit of Afghanistan” what I’ve functionally said is “I have no reason”

[Menalque]

not sure, I don’t think I’ve done it on LHF like this but I think I’ve voted someone I wasn’t scumreading to see what other people would do?

Okay, I don’t think it matters that much but maybe you should link this for people who are concerned about you

[Menalque]

Lilith what do you think is the implication that Johnny has very easily hit 3 votes and had support for at least 5 in a very short timeframe almost out of nowhere

[Menalque]

No, because I have good reasons for why i think infinity is scum, it’s not the same

[Menalque]

It’s like me saying “it will rain” and you asking why and me going “well, the barometer says there’s low pressure moving through the region and we have strong empirical backing for that leading to rain”

[Menalque]

In terms of me looking more like buddies with (lilith, auro, super!slot)

Yes

I mean they’re not, but they do look like my buddies if any of them flip scum, and if they were to do so it would damage my credibility a lot

[Menalque]

no i am talking about how u were pointing out me not willing to vote infinity points to us being partners. not the reasoning arguments.

Yes this applies to literally everyone who is highly resistant to vote someone in this setup

I don’t see the point/problem with this

[Menalque]

Lilith what do you think is the implication that Johnny has very easily hit 3 votes and had support for at least 5 in a very short timeframe almost out of nowhere

his ISO is really sparse so it’s really hard to tell, this could easily be bussing from the more vocal slots on him, like chennis. I’m not sure the wagon viability says much to me about his alignment tbh

What do you think about what I said about how if Johnny is town there’s a lot more being left unresolved tomorrow than if infinity is town

Also if you think chennis could be scum you should support my infinity push because they have high partner equity imo

[Menalque]

mena we been talking past each other. I can't tell if ur doing it on purpose.

I think you are scummy because (1) the votes you have been making have inadequate justification and are either on people I know to be town (me) or on slots that are compromise slots (which I think have higher town equity in this setup for the very reason that they’re compromises) — I think you’ve voted both flopz and Johnny at points, if I’m wrong about that then I need to reread you again I guess

I also think that (2) despite your willingness to vote town or compromise slots for little reason, you’ve been very resistant to voting slots I think /are/ scummy, despite the reasoning for their being scum being much stronger (see: infinity)

These two things combined make you scummy imo

[Menalque]

Because I still think that when I first started engaging with infinity and he was treating me in incredibly bad faith that if chennis were town he would have been a lot more critical of that and supportive of the infinity wagon

Whereas what he actually did was leverage the conflict between me/super!slot and koba!slot to undermine both me and super!slot which had the double effect of deeply undermining the push on infinity

[Menalque]

That was a 600 page game of which I was around for maybe 90 pages worth of reading total

And if your argument is just “hey I’m a liability who helps scum when I’m town” I don’t think that helps your case for not being a good elimination as much as you think it does

[Menalque]

If you for a minute think i am gonna vote people YOU scumread just because YOU SCUMREAD THEM THEY ARE SO GOOD READS.

This is just a misrep, I don’t think I’ve ever said infinity is a good vote bc I scumread him

I think infinity is a good vote because of the incredibly bad faith he treated my slot in

I think infinity is scummy because

(1) he would be scummy for treating any rep in slot in bad faith from the get go

(2) this is particularly scummy for infinity who has a demonstrable pattern as town of behaving in very good faith

(3) it’s tricky concerning that he would decide to treat my slot in such bad faith given our recent past experiences with each other in JK9++

Even if you remove (3) because you think it’s too personal to me/self-meta-y, I think (2) and (1) are still very compelling

Even if you remove (2) as well, because you don’t trust meta, I still think (1) alone is enough to justify an infinity elimination today because I think acting in bad faith in mafia is one of the strongest indicators there is that someone is scum

[Menalque]

“Tricky” should be “doubly” and idk how my autocorrect got there

[Menalque]

Idk how you think that reason (1) or (2) are wrapped up in my own ego, even if (3) probably is to a degree

[Menalque]

Also, yes, and part of the reason I think Super was very town was she had a habit of saying things I was thinking before I could say them

The last example being her worries about koba!slot’s alignment given how uninterested they were in sorting either of us once I’d repped in, and how that could be a scum tactic to avoid having to do meaningful engagement with the game

[Menalque]

Yes im reducing your reasoning down to its basic foundation. You are going to say misrep, discredit, w/e
I don't think anyone else who reads that post and thinks that infinity is doing scummy stuff. Its more "infinity did bad things to me when he wouldn't and shouldn't do that". Like thats what it is.

Infinity literally admitted he was acting in bad faith fam

[Menalque]

Bad faith is bad faith is bad faith

[Menalque]

Town should never do it, it’s very scum indicative and a staple of scumplay because scum are /forced/ to act in bad faith because they are inherently doing so by pushing people they *know* are town instead of having real reasons for their scumreads

And if infinity is town, he still ought to die for it as a learning experience to not treat people in bad faith when town. The only connection to me/my ego here is that it’s generally much easier to identify when someone is acting in bad faith in the first place when they’re dealing with you

Whereas it can be harder when they’re dealing with a slot that’s external to you in bad faith. But that doesn’t apply in this case because infinity

literally admitted in this thread that he was acting in bad faith

[Menalque]

I really think this game ends if we just guillotine through infinity -> chennis/fb -> fb/chennis

[Menalque]

I think he repeats the same thing again but yes

[Menalque]

As I said:

Bad faith is bad faith is bad faith

I don’t care what reasons you’re giving to try and justify it

[Menalque]

No, he isn’t, and the contextuality of the posts make it quite clear because he goes into a whole thing about how treating your scumreads in bad faith is this totally justified thing that he TOTALLY does as town btw and also Mena is so scummy that of course I would treat him in bad faith as he’s such a strong scumread

[Menalque]

That’s fine by me

[Menalque]

I appreciate the opportunity to lay out once again in a much calmer manner why infinity is scum to the town in the thread

And I get that you’re just playing to wincon and defending ur buddy

[Menalque]

No if infinity flips town then I reevaluate the entire game including you

My initial thought is that if infinity is town then I need to look closesly again at (super, auro, koba) from my TRs and probably (you, chennis) from my scum pile

[Menalque]

Closely*

[Menalque]

I will admit that part of why I want infinity dead at this point is that I am very sold on this read and think I won’t be able to move on in the game without receiving confirmation one way or the other

I think it’s much more likely that he flips scum, but if he is town then my continued belief that he’s scum will continue to colour my perception of the game in an inaccurate way and make it much harder for me to actually get to correct SRs

[Menalque]

Johnny can you please pass on to mastina that I would very much like her take on our game ASAP please

[Menalque]

Just don’t read what she has to say then

[Menalque]

Also, firebringer, have you considered that

(1) your previous top TR very hard agreed with me that infinity is scum

And (2) if you think I’m scum and want me dead/diminished in terms of presence and you think I’m pushing a town wagon, one of the best ways to discredit me is to support said wagon, let it flip town and then point out that I deathtunnelled a town slot all of D1

[Menalque]

It can be worthwhile compromising with your top TRs even if you do disagree with them

And sounds like you have a problem with me that’s not related to whether you think my read is correct or not then, which isn’t really playing the game imo

[Menalque]

I disagree

You don’t necessarily have to get something directly from the other person for it to be a compromise, although that’s one way of doing it

You can either compromise where person A says “I have a #1 preference for X and a #2 preference for Z” and person B says “I have a #1 preference for Y and a #2 preference for Z” and the compromise ends up being Z

Or you can have the compromise where person A gets X today and person B gets Y tomorrow. That’s what I’m saying here. Your ostensible goal is my elimination, correct? That gets easier for you if I’m demonstrably proven very wrong about infinity. So you supporting infinity today gets you closer to what you want tomorrow, and is a form of compromise (and I think it’s bolstered by listening to your TRs — like if Person B thinks person A is full of shit but they think person C is very honest and person C is saying the same thing as person A, I would have some doubts about whether person A was in fact full of shit)

[Menalque]

Are you gonna push for your own eliminataion and lie down on the sidewalk while i push a elimination on you tomorrow for eliminating town infinity?

Because if ur not going to do that. U aren't giving me "ur elimination" ur just saying I will get it. Which is bullshit.

I mean, ofc I’m not but it does make your life easier probably if you’re trying to elim me

You still have to do the work though and obviously I wouldn’t make that easy

[Menalque]

Which isn't really you giving me jackshit. its me giving myself ammo by giving you what you want. You didn't give me jackshit.

Okay but ammo is ammo firebringer

[Menalque]

My scumread: Give me my preferred elimination and you will get mine when I am proven wrong.
Me: Ohh so you will just let yourself die when I give you this?
My scumread: Ohh no but you can use this elimination as proof i am scum.
Me: So i get to lose a town player, and I have to convince everyone u scum pushed them, while you defend yourself. How is that different from today except now i lost a townie.
My scumread: You have ammo!

Basically yes

I didn’t necessarily expect you to go for it but thought I’d try

[Menalque]

Tbf though, it is different today because today all you can do is say “oh Mena is scum he’s doing scummy things” whereas tomorrow you’d actually be able to say “hey Mena is now /confirmed/ to have been pushing town all day”

[Menalque]

Also, firebringer, have you considered that

(1) your previous top TR very hard agreed with me that infinity is scum

And (2) if you think I’m scum and want me dead/diminished in terms of presence and you think I’m pushing a town wagon, one of the best ways to discredit me is to support said wagon, let it flip town and then point out that I deathtunnelled a town slot all of D1

The best way to discredit you is to not give you what you want

That’s not true though, is it

[Menalque]

Yah, I’m aware, I’m saying that if you’re convinced it’s scum!me and that scum!me is pushing town then it becomes *easier* to elim scum!me once that is confirmed

Whereas if infinity!scum then I think I’m basically confirmed town

[Menalque]

Tbf though, it is different today because today all you can do is say “oh Mena is scum he’s doing scummy things” whereas tomorrow you’d actually be able to say “hey Mena is now /confirmed/ to have been pushing town all day”

You can say "firebringer is scum for knowing infinity was town and voting him"

Back to square one.

Depends on if you think that argument would fly or not *shrug*

But it would be p scummy of me to make it when I’ve explicitly said that infinity being town would prompt me to re-evaluate the whole game

And to then go “oh no lol, I was basically right after all, fb is just scum, follow me again everyone?”

[Menalque]

Yah, I’m aware, I’m saying that if you’re convinced it’s scum!me and that scum!me is pushing town then it becomes *easier* to elim scum!me once that is confirmed

Whereas if infinity!scum then I think I’m basically confirmed town

You and I both know you won't be easier to eliminate tomorrow just because I have a dead townie body to show for it.

Agree to disagree, I think me being wrong on infinity meaningfully hurts my standing at least for a day or two

Yah, I’m aware, I’m saying that if you’re convinced it’s scum!me and that scum!me is pushing town then it becomes *easier* to elim scum!me once that is confirmed

Whereas if infinity!scum then I think I’m basically confirmed town

Or you can just die for being scum if you're scum?? I dont get it

Depends on if fb thinks he can actually get my elim today or not *shrug*

[Menalque]

I mean what this looks like to me is that both of you are absolutely desperate to *not* test my “infinity is scum” theory

[Menalque]

Menalque you're literally arguing "come at me tomorrow" when you know full well that if anyone's gonna come at you it's gonna be today

Huh

What?

[Menalque]

Tbf though, it is different today because today all you can do is say “oh Mena is scum he’s doing scummy things” whereas tomorrow you’d actually be able to say “hey Mena is now /confirmed/ to have been pushing town all day”

You can say "firebringer is scum for knowing infinity was town and voting him"

Back to square one.

Depends on if you think that argument would fly or not *shrug*

But it would be p scummy of me to make it when I’ve explicitly said that infinity being town would prompt me to re-evaluate the whole game

And to then go “oh no lol, I was basically right after all, fb is just scum, follow me again everyone?”

All you would have to do is spam it and make big long posts on how everything i did was intentionally setting up your miselimination and i can picture it now.

Again, up to you, but I find it lowkey weird you think that would actually fly here

Like i haven’t had that much play today really

I find it weird you think I might somehow have enough after being very publicly wrong to then pull off an attempted miselim on you tomorrow

[Menalque]

hi mena not to derail but did you have any response/thoughts to my comments on your original read on me

Can you remind me what this was?

[Menalque]

Menalque you're literally arguing "come at me tomorrow" when you know full well that if anyone's gonna come at you it's gonna be today

Huh

What?

You're claiming that if we really think you're scum we should test your theory about Infinity scum.

I don't think you're scum, first off, and if I did I would try to eliminate you today. Because as far as I can see there has been no serious attempt to eliminate you that actually got traction.

I’m pretty sure I was top wagon earlier today chennis and the joint highest wagon that there’s been all game

[Menalque]

I think he's town

Why

[Menalque]

Please address points made in 2776

[Menalque]

I think he's town

Why

probably for ur ate outburst.

What? How does that have an impact on chennis’ perception of infinity’s alignment?

[Menalque]

I basically see where he's coming from with most of his posts.

You can see where he’s coming from in deciding to treat a slot in bad faith from the moment it replaces and why when pushed on why he’s treating said slot in bad faith his reasoning was “because I have such a strong scumread there” which when asked to substantiate why that scumread was

so

strong that if justified deviation from his normal behaviour of treating even his scumreads in good faith, he couldn’t explain beyond “gut”?

[Menalque]

if mena is town then he’d get eliminated at some point before endgame based on past experience

Probably, yes

People have a thing for killing me when I’m town I guess

[Menalque]

@mena

I was actually going to say like almost the same thing infinity did about mena’s initial reads list except with the added bonus of my opinion of his read on me being

lazy

. like his points about me were:

- energy: this is like, the reason I disagree the least with but by itself is a bad reason to put me in top town tier
- worried about my activity level!!!!! ok what, and also -> townread??
- haven’t read my case wall: ok why do you feel justified to talk about my activity level then because the whole point of my walls was to make up for lack of activity during busytimes
- “I should be sortable” - uh sorry? this is not a reason to put me in a top town tier. How does my being sortable put me in top townreads?

probably should make these into more coherent sentences

- read based on energy is fine but it’s the reason I least disagree with and on its own I don’t think is strong enough for top tier townread. how much of your read would you say is based on this?
- not sure why you brought up activity level and not sure why you would still put me in top tier if it was something you were concerned about
- you admitted to not reading my walls which should have cleared any concerns about my activity from point 2
- unclear how “lilith should be sortable” results in me being put into top tier townread since the only other point leading to townreading me is #1. these two points together don’t make that much sense to me for the strength of the read you professed.

It wasn’t just energy in thread, like I said, it was also partly about the specific way you reacted to my rep in. My concern about your activity is that I seem to remember maybe in like GnRIV or something that you do something similar to what I do as scum — which is that it’s not that you can’t effort, but it comes more in bursts rather than being constant. So your pumping out some big walls was pretty meaningless to me in terms of your alignment because I believe you could do that as scum, whereas you maintain a consistent thread presence is more town indicative for you based on prior experiences.

Also, like, it was my first readslist lil? I will re-evaluate as needed, but that’s what the point on your being sortable was. Not a reason for you to be town, but a reason why I was happy to but you as strong town. My impression was that you were being towny, and I was happy to put you up there in a way I wouldn’t be for, idk, pooky or someone I’m notoriously terrible at reading where I’d be a lot more hedge-y.

A decent amount is still energy/tone as I think you’ve been quite consistent there. But I also think the whole flopz thing is pretty strongly town!indicative for you, because I think scum!you, when pushed on the flopz thing *probably* doesn’t go for a “it was a reaction test” attempt to get out of it rather than trying to substantiate why you thought he was scummy with points about that. Like it’s just a weird choice for scum!you to make in terms of optics

Lastly, I just think I’m pretty okay at noticing scum!you now? I was p wrong in GnR admittedly, but you just ~seemed~ scum in JK9++ and in PyP. And you don’t here *shrug*

[Menalque]

infinity gave his reaction first though, and chennis and I followed suit after. How do you figure that infinity is trying to get us to “mindmeld” with him?

He is doing what i did to skitter in PyP. Say things you think a person will react/think will react to posts.

U weren’t in PyP were you?

[Menalque]

Which makes his soft distance push against me makes sense

Wait where was this again

[Menalque]

Fuck me I should really read my posts before submitting my autocorrect makes me look illiterate

[Menalque]

Which makes his soft distance push against me makes sense

Wait where was this again

He been calling me scum who is trying to pocket him for many pages.

Where? He’s like barely talked about you at all since I repped in, I just double checked in ISO

[Menalque]

@infinity do you have any other conclusions with ur catchup?

I think fb might be scum, his heart really doesn't feel in the chenn SR, and I think if he was town and his heart wasn't in it he probably wouldn't bother posting it.

@infinity do you have any other conclusions with ur catchup?

I think fb might be scum, his heart really doesn't feel in the chenn SR, and I think if he was town and his heart wasn't in it he probably wouldn't bother posting it.

dude. do u ever know where my heart is. real question

No but I can tell it's not in that chenn case.

Like I don’t really see any reference to him thinking you’re scummy aside from this @fb

[Menalque]

A good 10 pages before I arrived

[Menalque]

Also, you’re welcome lili

[Menalque]

(Also, I am assuming you would tell me if you don’t like me calling you lili, I just generally tend to abbreviate names once I feel more comfortable with people but if you prefer the full version I will try to remember that and use it)

[Menalque]

Okay, cool

[Menalque]

yeah im not voting infinity

lol

[Menalque]

Okay, see you on Saturday fire

[Menalque]

@lili do you have any more thoughts about infinity?

[Menalque]

I think there’s some definite partner equity between infinity and johnny but I have a strong preference for still doing infinity first

Because I think the game is basically won if we flip!infinity scum on D1

It’s probably still winning if Johnny is scum and we do him today but maybe slightly harder

But I also think from a risk management pov it’s more damaging to the gamestate if we get a Johnny townflip today than if we get an infinity townflip

[Menalque]

Tell ur team they’re being lazy and that I’m very offended

But it’s okay, no worries

Let me know when you do read him

Again, would encourage reading him with my [poat]2776[/post] in mind

I just looked at him in ISO again when fb mentioned the soft distancing thing and I cannot shake the sense that I’m reading a scum Iso when I look at it so I would be really interested to see what you think is towny about it when you get the chance/which things made sense to you

[Menalque]

“yeet both mena and infinity”

Also I guess I don’t hate this that much but would just like to very strongly insist we do infinity first if that becomes the plan

[Menalque]

Like, I’m not going to self-vote or lie down and die if I’m wrong on infinity but I would find it understandable if there was this sense that nobody would be able to trust me by lylo if I’m wrong

In which case killing me before then is understandable provided everyone can actually substantiate the reason why they think I’m scum if infinity is town/why they can’t trust me

[Menalque]

I basically see where he's coming from with most of his posts.

You can see where he’s coming from in deciding to treat a slot in bad faith from the moment it replaces and why when pushed on why he’s treating said slot in bad faith his reasoning was “because I have such a strong scumread there” which when asked to substantiate why that scumread was

so

strong that if justified deviation from his normal behaviour of treating even his scumreads in good faith, he couldn’t explain beyond “gut”?

I mean imo a good starting point is reading him from when I rep in and seeing if you agree with this summary of his approach to me or not

Also, I don’t think you responded to this post did you @chennis

[Menalque]

I will do a wallpostie tmrw, I'm tired now.

Most of my reads r pretty close to what Super's legacy reads were. Mena/lilith both seem quite towny to me. Kobaslot felt genuine at points. Everyone else I have thots on but I eval once I have slept.

I have not yet consulted at length w/ my team but I do know there is a pretty strong consensus among those 3 that Autumn Leaves is scum and must perish by my blade. I am no sheep tho and I will perform my own due dilligence on the slot.

@Autumn as a start, I'd be interested in hearing Ydrasse's current view of this game.

Everyone else I have thots on

I have thots on

[Menalque]

i dont think he does this kind of thing as scum here. dont think scum would scream "ME ME ME" like this

This is a pretty good reason to townread me actually and more understanding than anyone has showed of the distinctions between my scumgame and my towngame in a

while

I mean, that doesn’t make you town, but kudos anyway

[Menalque]

I, too, would love to hear ydrasse flesh out her thoughts on my scumclaiming earlier beyond “well it was scumclaiming”

[Menalque]

I incidentally find it quite funny that in this game so far both replacements have basically had identical or very similar reads to their pred

Looking forward to being deathtunnelled by koba!replacement

[Menalque]

1) okay it seemed like I kept reposting this question to them and they kept avoiding responding, not sure why if the answer was just “oh I didn’t actually think it was towny”?
2) they were proposing not eliminating someone just because the someone can make big posts?

I have no idea what the answer is to either but I guess I’m not that worried by it because I know it wasn’t defending a scumbuddy who was inactive

I kinda get why that could be a concern fypov, but equally I don’t really think it makes sense to believe koba and I are partners

I guess there is some tinfoil around “oh koba and Mena hate each other maybe they just decided to bus so they wouldn’t have to play together” which, honestly, makes *some* sense intellectually but you have to assume we got along well enough in scum pt to coordinate something like that which... honestly I’m sceptical of

[Menalque]

You should go to bed lili, game will still be here tomorrow

[Menalque]

And I need you not exhausted so you can actually play and do that reread of infinity’s ISO

[Menalque]

I think you mistake my intent there? which is to say that I think koba slot being scum would spew you and super slot as town

Oh, yeah, I like... didn’t get that

How does it spew me/super town? I don’t get it beyond koba clearly wanting either of us dead

i dont think he does this kind of thing as scum here. dont think scum would scream "ME ME ME" like this

This is a pretty good reason to townread me actually and more understanding than anyone has showed of the distinctions between my scumgame and my towngame in a

while

I mean, that doesn’t make you town, but kudos anyway

ur scumread on me is literally because ur annoyed at me

That’s not true. I was scumreading you by PoE, I’m still kind of scumreading you by PoE but a lot of it is I do think your movements around infinity have been... idk, agenda-d? Like you have a specific goal you’re trying to achieve. I’ve said this already, but to me it seemed a lot like you were trying to defend infinity by shifting suspicion onto the interactions between me/super and koba.

At this point I’m not annoyed with you (I admit I was earlier) but that doesn’t make me feel better about your alignment

[Menalque]

Like I’m confused by how you’re getting that when I’ve said multiple times that one of my main issues with you is that I think your positioning around and defence of infinity is scum!motivated because infinity is scum, bussing is heavily disincentivised, and therefore you need to give some sort of reasons why you don’t wanna vote there to protect your partner

[Menalque]

I basically see where he's coming from with most of his posts.

You can see where he’s coming from in deciding to treat a slot in bad faith from the moment it replaces and why when pushed on why he’s treating said slot in bad faith his reasoning was “because I have such a strong scumread there” which when asked to substantiate why that scumread was

so

strong that if justified deviation from his normal behaviour of treating even his scumreads in good faith, he couldn’t explain beyond “gut”?

I also believe I’m still waiting for a response on this, chennis

[Menalque]

Oh, okay, now I follow you

There was actually one specific post that makes me feel very strongly that super/koba are not aligned if koba is scum

[Menalque]

do u rly think that super and i would fake the interactions we have lmfao

do u rly think that super and i would fake the interactions we have lmfao

not in the slightest

good because we did

These two posts

So this was after super had started to worry about koba seemingly not caring about solving the game at all, which was also starting to worry me. Like, not enough that I think I wanna elim the slot today, but I basically had started having the thought process of “what if koba’s lazy tunnels for personal reasons are that, but they *also* serve a scum agenda?”

After super said that, koba made the above posts, which I think look a lot like they’re trying /real hard/ to wifom about super being a partner or to get it into people’s heads that super might be a partner once koba felt that the wind was starting to shift and there was some suspicion on them

[Menalque]

Like if koba was actually partners with super, I don’t think they’d feel the need to make those posts to try and encourage paranoia about it

It’s something you /could/ do as scum, but which there’s no real point in doing because, hey, if nobody is thinking about it, why put it in people’s heads in the first place? But if you’re worried that you actually might be on the table, and that your flip as scum would be clearing for too many people, you try to muddy the waters

[Menalque]

To be clear, I think the most likely thing is koba was just trying to make a joke. But if that slot’s new occupant starts to really look like scum and we do flip them, and they are scum, I think think the above is p clearing for super!slot

[Menalque]

If you for a minute think i am gonna vote people YOU scumread just because YOU SCUMREAD THEM THEY ARE SO GOOD READS.

This is just a misrep, I don’t think I’ve ever said infinity is a good vote bc I scumread him

I think infinity is a good vote because of the incredibly bad faith he treated my slot in

I think infinity is scummy because

(1) he would be scummy for treating any rep in slot in bad faith from the get go

(2) this is particularly scummy for infinity who has a demonstrable pattern as town of behaving in very good faith

(3) it’s tricky concerning that he would decide to treat my slot in such bad faith given our recent past experiences with each other in JK9++

Even if you remove (3) because you think it’s too personal to me/self-meta-y, I think (2) and (1) are still very compelling

Even if you remove (2) as well, because you don’t trust meta, I still think (1) alone is enough to justify an infinity elimination today because I think acting in bad faith in mafia is one of the strongest indicators there is that someone is scum

I mean yes, 1 I don't deathtunnel often as town, but there are definitely examples of it. 2 And I never deathtunnel as scum. 3 The idea that I would think you're an easy target after being beyond obvtown in when you were pushed on in PyP, and 4 OMGUSing the shit out of people who pushed on you, is pretty nonsense. 5 I think you SR me because you refuse to believe I would make such an awful play as town, without having enough knowledge about me as a player to know.

(1) okay where

(2) I wouldn’t necessarily describe your behaviour here as deathtunnelling on me so I don’t think this supports your argument

(3) I don’t think you pushed me because you thought I was an easy target, although I think I was the easiest I was likely to be as a target when I repped in. My working theory on this is that my PoE is correct and winning, and so it was necessary for scum to take action (even if suboptimal) because otherwise the game was just a loss. I’ve done similar — see, for example, my attempts to induce paranoia about the townbloc and to make alisae very hard distanced with me in the probable case of my death in ONS. Those weren’t things I /wanted/ to do as scum because the paranoia about the townbloc doesn’t really look good and I probably wouldn’t make so much effort to distance with a partner normally esp if we couldn’t communicate. But the PoE being so bad for us meant I had to try. I think it could be a similar case here. You didn’t want to push me; you felt I had to, and knew it would get harder the longer you waited

(4) this is probably the best reason against you being scum — the fact you know I don’t take pushes on myself well if they’re not explained and I can’t see how the person is reaching the conclusion I’m scum. However, I think point (3) has adequate explanatory power for why you might go for it anyway, and I guess also this could explain your bad faith; if you thought I would *definitely* realise you were scum if you bullshitted actual reasons (like when hoopla voted me in PyP and her reasons pinged the shit out of me bc they didn’t make sense) that would twig me *more* than just not engaging with me and saying it was because you had such a strong gutread.

(5) ehh, yeah, kinda? Like I’ve never denied this. A very large part is that I struggle to see town!you making the decisions you would have had to have made here, whereas I can see scum!you feeling like you *need* to try and take me out if I’m pushing a correct PoE

I will admit that part of why I want infinity dead at this point is that I am very sold on this read and think I won’t be able to move on in the game without receiving confirmation one way or the other

I think it’s much more likely that he flips scum, but if he is town then my continued belief that he’s scum will continue to colour my perception of the game in an inaccurate way and make it much harder for me to actually get to correct SRs

Even if joqiza SRs me, there are at least 3 townies that townread me here, and don't need my flip to re-evaluate, so I don't particularly care about this

You don’t have to care about it, it was more for the others

Also what do you mean “there are at least 3 townies that townread me here”?

[Menalque]

Actually, who voted johnny is a good question bc I also thought fire voted there

[Menalque]

@Autumn as a start, I'd be interested in hearing Ydrasse's current view of this game.

Ydrasse...has not been keeping up with the game. Is there anything specific you want her to ask about?

I would still like her to substantiate why she allegedly said I was “scumclaiming” earlier in the game with an explanation that is not “I think Mena was scumclaiming”

[Menalque]

I don't really ~know~ Menalque (have heard him referred to at points)

“Wow have did u hear that Mena threw another game the other day?”

“My god, another one!? He is truly awful”

I see my reputation precedes me

Hi, joqiza

I’m probably not going to bother to try and read you that much because I think your predecessor was v town but I am looking forward to having you in the game and working with you!

[Menalque]

@lili can you give me an approximate readslist of where you’re at atm?

I think actually I might like this from everyone

Mine is broadly unchanged from where it was last time but so it’s all in one post

Joqiza — town
Lili

Auro — townlean

Koba!slot — prob town i guess? Pending new player

Flopz — nulltown

Johnny — scumpool
Chennis
Fb

Infinity — scum

I don’t necessarily think the team is *exactly* (infinity, chennis, fb, johnny) but I think there’s a good chance there’s 2/4 scum in there and in this case that’s enough to win, so I’m not gonna try to torture myself too much about having a perfect solve

[Menalque]

I basically see where he's coming from with most of his posts.

You can see where he’s coming from in deciding to treat a slot in bad faith from the moment it replaces and why when pushed on why he’s treating said slot in bad faith his reasoning was “because I have such a strong scumread there” which when asked to substantiate why that scumread was

so

strong that if justified deviation from his normal behaviour of treating even his scumreads in good faith, he couldn’t explain beyond “gut”?

I also believe I’m still waiting for a response on this, chennis

I'm not going to respond to a loaded question.

The phrasing is inflammatory but the question isn’t itself loaded

I would legitimately like to know what you mean when you say you “see where he’s coming from with most of his posts” because I don’t understand what you mean by that atm

When I say "I dont think X would do this as scum" I don't mean they aren't

capable

of it, just that it would make little sense for them to do that --

even accounting for WIFOM spam or whatever

. That is how I felt about Autumn's take on you, Menalque.

Quick question how has my take on Johnny not been any more "random" than that? And why haven't you called it out? We both know what the answer is: because Johnny is not your slot, and you're giving your slot a lot more weight in this game than I think you should.

Okay, but the point is not about that. I want to know what you agreed about with regard to infinity’s takes/why you think they made sense. I’m not asking why you think they wouldn’t come from scum.

As to the second bit: you’re kind of right, kind of not. Obviously, I pay the most attention to what happens to my own slot, I think that’s normal. But secondarily, it’s much easier to judge what’s happening with your own slot. So the reason I haven’t called it out if you think you’ve treated johnny similarly to how infinity treated me (which is I think what you’re saying? I’m not totally sure tho?) it’s because (1) that’s not something I automatically notice and (2) it’s harder for me to see how you’re acting in bad faith

It’s interesting you say that you think I’m giving my slot more weight than I should when joqiza noted as part of his catchup that he felt the game “warped around me” after I repped in, and that you yourself were calling me one of the “keystone slots” that needed to be sorted with priority. That seems to suggest that I maybe do have a disproportionate influence on the game, and so I don’t think I’m just being ego driven here

[Menalque]

Is the flopz read just that he seemed like a place that too many people were willing to compromise or is there something else too?

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Also a readslist like that is literally fine for my purposes, I just want to force everyone to clearly commit to what their stance is on all other players so it can be looked back on later once we have flips

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The reason she said mena was scumclaiming was during his interaction with super or koba or something (?), he felt overly aggressive to the point of being mean-spirited.

I want specific posts, infinity

Also hi math

Also I’m not sure if I’m townreading auro anymore

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I will prob be around more tomorrow but maybe not until next week

I got red dead redemption 2 on Friday and it turns out I still am capable of playing a game for like 12 hours in a day even if it does sort of make my eyes hurt

Also my quarantine is now OVER which means I get to go for a walk and stuff tomorrow!!

[Menalque]

Also I’m not sure if I’m townreading auro anymore

Kinda interesting to see myself in everyone's "cool with elim" list, lol, I'm curious about your own reasoning.

Idk I think it’s two things, might change back tomorrow when I’m evaluating in a non-tired mind again

Basically it struck me that I couldn’t really remember anything you’d done all game? Other than ask questions, but I don’t really remember you ever pushing your own ideas as opposed to sheeping things

And two, kinda related to one, I started thinking about the game in terms of “who am I really comfortable having in my townbloc if I need that townbloc to be definitely correct to ensure the game is won” and under those criteria I think I’d only really be happy in calling lili/joqiza confidently town

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The fact there was toxicity means that people generally seem to be unaware of how to play Black Flag / White Flag setups. It’s going to seem weird at first what I say but in general it should be a pool of would elim / would not elim. Our goal should be to eliminate “not town” versus “scum”.

Have you ever said this in a flag game when you were town/do you have examples of reputable players saying this as town in a flag game

[Menalque]

Basically it struck me that I couldn’t really remember anything you’d done all game? Other than ask questions, but I don’t really remember you ever pushing your own ideas as opposed to sheeping things

Yeah that's fair and I think someone else had the same critique as well.

I got burnt from Mafia playing super aggressively and obsessively and that was the reason I took a long break. It's stressful and I want to have fun. >.> Trying to take it more chill now. I think I'm doing a great job avoiding refreshing MS *all day*

Okay that all makes a lot of sense but is not that reassuring bc I have no way of knowing if you’re the type of player who if they rolled scum would stick to their initial plan to just be more chill or if you’d feel more pressure to match your old meta and would turn it on more

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Also I’m just lowkey wondering if fb might be town

And infinity said exactly one thing (that I don’t wanna disclose rn) that made me worry if he could be town

And so that made me think that I need to just double check everyone and that I’m still happy with my reads

[Menalque]

Oh how little u know me fb

[Menalque]

The fact there was toxicity means that people generally seem to be unaware of how to play Black Flag / White Flag setups. It’s going to seem weird at first what I say but in general it should be a pool of would elim / would not elim. Our goal should be to eliminate “not town” versus “scum”.

Have you ever said this in a flag game when you were town/do you have examples of reputable players saying this as town in a flag game

Not exactly the same thing word for word, but Llamarble used this idea in white flag (even though iirc his reads were bad) and scum were forced to quit playing reactively and try to pretend to be town. That’s the same thing I want to force here. I am actually a big lover of mountainous and similar setups because they bring out the true nature of mafia. There’s no such thing as a “guilty” or an “inno”.

FoS for shading me on something easily provable. Like this makes me wonder if you’re even talking with your teammates or scumhunting at all.

This isn’t shade lol

Well, idk, maybe it is, but you repping into a slot I feel ambiguous on albeit leaning town to go “hey yeah let’s just form a townbloc that’s definitely optimal strategy” feels like it could be powerwolfing

It really just feels like due diligence? Are you saying scum wouldn’t just lie about optimal strategy?

[Menalque]

Basically it struck me that I couldn’t really remember anything you’d done all game? Other than ask questions, but I don’t really remember you ever pushing your own ideas as opposed to sheeping things

Yeah that's fair and I think someone else had the same critique as well.

I got burnt from Mafia playing super aggressively and obsessively and that was the reason I took a long break. It's stressful and I want to have fun. >.> Trying to take it more chill now. I think I'm doing a great job avoiding refreshing MS *all day*

Okay that all makes a lot of sense but is not that reassuring bc I have no way of knowing if you’re the type of player who if they rolled scum would stick to their initial plan to just be more chill or if you’d feel more pressure to match your old meta and would turn it on more

Why are you trying to figure out what a person would do if they rolled scum versus if you would want to elim them or not? Why are you looking to be reassured versus looking for points of discomfort and smashing them?

Idk what your point is? Because if I’m right about my lim!pool then the game is already in auto but that requires auro!town, so I want him to demonstrate to me how he is town? Like I don’t have a concrete, specific moment for my townread on him fading, it just... did?

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Also I’m just lowkey wondering if fb might be town

And infinity said exactly one thing (that I don’t wanna disclose rn) that made me worry if he could be town

And so that made me think that I need to just double check everyone and that I’m still happy with my reads

VOTE: Menalque

Oh yeah you can be elimmed. Hating town block design, attacking provable information, desire for comfort, random lines without any noticeable train of thought. Convince me you aren’t scum.

read my iso, math, multiple points here (hating townbloc design, desire for comfort, random lines) are just v clearly not true or don’t make sense for me!scum

Beyond that I don’t really care that much if you act like I’m scum, your slot was already deathtunnelling me and if we have to lim you so be it

[Menalque]

Btw Mena on re-reading it actually feels like a bit of a disingenuous attack that I'm being sheepy, considering you *want* people to join the AL wagon...? Like I was pushing Super at the time and you accused me of inaction, too.

Ehh this is kind of a good point I guess, idk I suppose I was just expecting you to be a more active voice? But you maybe have a point about the fact that my infinity push was taking up so much oxygen that it was hard without you being present to a similar level to get traction where you wanted it

I’ll reread you again in ISO, I just don’t feel confident about you anymore

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@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

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Anyone here who knows me and we have played together knows I almost never if ever lie. Combined that with asking Auro about his meta means you’re being very very picky about when you use meta abs when you don’t. It’s like you can’t go deep.

I’ve played with you once, ages ago, and had forgotten that

Also in that game I was scum so I didn’t have to make any effort to read you

[Menalque]

Looks like Koba was a smart cookie

[Menalque]

And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

[Menalque]

@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

Your second paragraph is exactly why I think you’re scum. It’s easier to attack where the idea originated than the merits of the idea. I already said it was weird. I expected push back but on the merits not the source.

Again, why should I bother trying to sort the merits myself if I can proxy that out to known good faith town?

[Menalque]

And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

Lmao calling something an overreaction to shade me more while saying it’s not a shade. I can’t. Lol

It’s not shade if I’m just straight up saying your reaction is concerning and you could be scum?

[Menalque]

Fb is in your no elim pool despite your earlier concerns on him bc he’s voting for someone who pinged you but who you admittedly haven’t read most of the posts of?

^there you go math, that’s what shade looks like

[Menalque]

@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

Your second paragraph is exactly why I think you’re scum. It’s easier to attack where the idea originated than the merits of the idea. I already said it was weird. I expected push back but on the merits not the source.

Again, why should I bother trying to sort the merits myself if I can proxy that out to known good faith town?

Because those players are not in this game, you are. Sometimes the best strategy overall is not the best case here. Everything has to be evaluated at the time it’s said and with the context of the game. “Eg all fake claimers die” is really more a “almost all fake claimers die” except when dealing with someone like Radiant Cowbells. It’s forcing the work you should be doing onto others and I hate it.

Okay, I don’t really care if you hate it or not, it’s just being (1) humble and (2) prophylactic against scum trying to push suboptimal strategy

Also your analogy doesn’t work bc you’re talking about a strategy which we as a whole should follow with regard to the game overall, not whether or not a particular slot should be treated a certain way

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And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

Lmao calling something an overreaction to shade me more while saying it’s not a shade. I can’t. Lol

It’s not shade if I’m just straight up saying your reaction is concerning and you could be scum?

That’s literally shade lol

A shade is a post designed and/or poking someone to make them look bad. Calling my reaction an overreaction poisons the mind of the reader. It’s a trick I use as scum a lot.

That’s not how I use shade

Shade is when you try to make a slot look bad/worse without actually calling them out or saying you think they’re scum

It’s a way to damage them without exposing yourself

Saying someone is scummy for something and explaining why isn’t shade

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Fb is in your no elim pool despite your earlier concerns on him bc he’s voting for someone who pinged you but who you admittedly haven’t read most of the posts of?

^there you go math, that’s what shade looks like

Correct.
Firebringer is a player who is easily sorted with a bit of pressure.
And if I waited to read everyone’s iso before voting it would be a very long while before I did anything. I don’t roll like that. I vote what pings me and when I get time I look back and make sure it’s justified.

Okay, guess I’ll wait for u to look back then

Don’t think it’s a good look tho