TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

[MathBlade]

Also I’m just lowkey wondering if fb might be town

And infinity said exactly one thing (that I don’t wanna disclose rn) that made me worry if he could be town

And so that made me think that I need to just double check everyone and that I’m still happy with my reads

VOTE: Menalque

Oh yeah you can be elimmed. Hating town block design, attacking provable information, desire for comfort, random lines without any noticeable train of thought. Convince me you aren’t scum.

[MathBlade]

id rather see u lead this game here but for some reason people are divided on u

They won't be when I get two scum elim'd 8)

Meanwhile let's talk about Menalque. Do you really believe he'd make a "fine, elim me or Super then trust the other" type deal as scum?

Will definitely need to look at this later and see if a Menalque+Super pairing could be a thing.

[MathBlade]

if you’re the type of player who if they rolled scum would stick to their initial plan to just be more chill or if you’d feel more pressure to match your old meta and would turn it on more

Btw either way I think it'll induce the same amount of paranoia

I don't think he meant it to begin with. So theres that?

Really? Because I felt those posts were pretty genuine and that bumped up Mena to a townread for me: and he was a scumspected slot, what do you think he'd have done if there was a wagon on him?

(Drats, should've voted him then lol)

His actions are pretty clearly suited to get him to live. I don't believe the posts about him being fine with getting yeeted in order to prove X or Y is scum or town.

Almost like the questions are meaningless attempts to hunt versus actually hunting.

[Menalque]

The fact there was toxicity means that people generally seem to be unaware of how to play Black Flag / White Flag setups. It’s going to seem weird at first what I say but in general it should be a pool of would elim / would not elim. Our goal should be to eliminate “not town” versus “scum”.

Have you ever said this in a flag game when you were town/do you have examples of reputable players saying this as town in a flag game

Not exactly the same thing word for word, but Llamarble used this idea in white flag (even though iirc his reads were bad) and scum were forced to quit playing reactively and try to pretend to be town. That’s the same thing I want to force here. I am actually a big lover of mountainous and similar setups because they bring out the true nature of mafia. There’s no such thing as a “guilty” or an “inno”.

FoS for shading me on something easily provable. Like this makes me wonder if you’re even talking with your teammates or scumhunting at all.

This isn’t shade lol

Well, idk, maybe it is, but you repping into a slot I feel ambiguous on albeit leaning town to go “hey yeah let’s just form a townbloc that’s definitely optimal strategy” feels like it could be powerwolfing

It really just feels like due diligence? Are you saying scum wouldn’t just lie about optimal strategy?

[Menalque]

Basically it struck me that I couldn’t really remember anything you’d done all game? Other than ask questions, but I don’t really remember you ever pushing your own ideas as opposed to sheeping things

Yeah that's fair and I think someone else had the same critique as well.

I got burnt from Mafia playing super aggressively and obsessively and that was the reason I took a long break. It's stressful and I want to have fun. >.> Trying to take it more chill now. I think I'm doing a great job avoiding refreshing MS *all day*

Okay that all makes a lot of sense but is not that reassuring bc I have no way of knowing if you’re the type of player who if they rolled scum would stick to their initial plan to just be more chill or if you’d feel more pressure to match your old meta and would turn it on more

Why are you trying to figure out what a person would do if they rolled scum versus if you would want to elim them or not? Why are you looking to be reassured versus looking for points of discomfort and smashing them?

Idk what your point is? Because if I’m right about my lim!pool then the game is already in auto but that requires auro!town, so I want him to demonstrate to me how he is town? Like I don’t have a concrete, specific moment for my townread on him fading, it just... did?

[MathBlade]

How do you guys feel about voting Chen instead?

Not really feeling it. He’s at least trying the thought experiment I had even if he disagrees with it.

[Menalque]

Also I’m just lowkey wondering if fb might be town

And infinity said exactly one thing (that I don’t wanna disclose rn) that made me worry if he could be town

And so that made me think that I need to just double check everyone and that I’m still happy with my reads

VOTE: Menalque

Oh yeah you can be elimmed. Hating town block design, attacking provable information, desire for comfort, random lines without any noticeable train of thought. Convince me you aren’t scum.

read my iso, math, multiple points here (hating townbloc design, desire for comfort, random lines) are just v clearly not true or don’t make sense for me!scum

Beyond that I don’t really care that much if you act like I’m scum, your slot was already deathtunnelling me and if we have to lim you so be it

[MathBlade]

The fact there was toxicity means that people generally seem to be unaware of how to play Black Flag / White Flag setups. It’s going to seem weird at first what I say but in general it should be a pool of would elim / would not elim. Our goal should be to eliminate “not town” versus “scum”.

Have you ever said this in a flag game when you were town/do you have examples of reputable players saying this as town in a flag game

Not exactly the same thing word for word, but Llamarble used this idea in white flag (even though iirc his reads were bad) and scum were forced to quit playing reactively and try to pretend to be town. That’s the same thing I want to force here. I am actually a big lover of mountainous and similar setups because they bring out the true nature of mafia. There’s no such thing as a “guilty” or an “inno”.

FoS for shading me on something easily provable. Like this makes me wonder if you’re even talking with your teammates or scumhunting at all.

This isn’t shade lol

Well, idk, maybe it is, but you repping into a slot I feel ambiguous on albeit leaning town to go “hey yeah let’s just form a townbloc that’s definitely optimal strategy” feels like it could be powerwolfing

It really just feels like due diligence? Are you saying scum wouldn’t just lie about optimal strategy?

I am saying that you’re not actually putting deep thought into your posts. Rather than think about the strategy and if it has merit you ask me to prove it. Rather than think about if I lie about optimal strategy you ask if I am. It’s like you’re doing very surface level things to avoid any sort of unity. Could it be a power wolf strategy? (Cenk Ugyur style) Of course! But that’s why you poke me and get to know me and sort me, not immediately attack what I do with baseless crap.

[Menalque]

Btw Mena on re-reading it actually feels like a bit of a disingenuous attack that I'm being sheepy, considering you *want* people to join the AL wagon...? Like I was pushing Super at the time and you accused me of inaction, too.

Ehh this is kind of a good point I guess, idk I suppose I was just expecting you to be a more active voice? But you maybe have a point about the fact that my infinity push was taking up so much oxygen that it was hard without you being present to a similar level to get traction where you wanted it

I’ll reread you again in ISO, I just don’t feel confident about you anymore

[MathBlade]

Anyone here who knows me and we have played together knows I almost never if ever lie. Combined that with asking Auro about his meta means you’re being very very picky about when you use meta abs when you don’t. It’s like you can’t go deep.

[Menalque]

@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

[Menalque]

Anyone here who knows me and we have played together knows I almost never if ever lie. Combined that with asking Auro about his meta means you’re being very very picky about when you use meta abs when you don’t. It’s like you can’t go deep.

I’ve played with you once, ages ago, and had forgotten that

Also in that game I was scum so I didn’t have to make any effort to read you

[MathBlade]

Also I’m just lowkey wondering if fb might be town

And infinity said exactly one thing (that I don’t wanna disclose rn) that made me worry if he could be town

And so that made me think that I need to just double check everyone and that I’m still happy with my reads

VOTE: Menalque

Oh yeah you can be elimmed. Hating town block design, attacking provable information, desire for comfort, random lines without any noticeable train of thought. Convince me you aren’t scum.

read my iso, math, multiple points here (hating townbloc design, desire for comfort, random lines) are just v clearly not true or don’t make sense for me!scum

Beyond that I don’t really care that much if you act like I’m scum, your slot was already deathtunnelling me and if we have to lim you so be it

Oh I am planning on it. I literally just got up and have been catching up. You pinged me and so I am poking. Looks like Koba was a smart cookie. *nom nom nom*

[Menalque]

Looks like Koba was a smart cookie

[Menalque]

And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

[MathBlade]

@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

Your second paragraph is exactly why I think you’re scum. It’s easier to attack where the idea originated than the merits of the idea. I already said it was weird. I expected push back but on the merits not the source.

[MathBlade]

And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

Lmao calling something an overreaction to shade me more while saying it’s not a shade. I can’t. Lol

[MathBlade]

His actions are pretty clearly suited to get him to live. I don't believe the posts about him being fine with getting yeeted in order to prove X or Y is scum or town.

The way I see it it's very difficult to back out and retaliate against people if they're wagoning you after *you* propose "elim me then trust X elim Y". I made a similar proposition last year in WF as well.

Wouldn't that just mean its a good manipulation tactic.

Ugh you can be town who just hates blocks. Come join my Menalque wagon. Fire is in my no elim pool today for this.

[Menalque]

@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

Your second paragraph is exactly why I think you’re scum. It’s easier to attack where the idea originated than the merits of the idea. I already said it was weird. I expected push back but on the merits not the source.

Again, why should I bother trying to sort the merits myself if I can proxy that out to known good faith town?

[Menalque]

And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

Lmao calling something an overreaction to shade me more while saying it’s not a shade. I can’t. Lol

It’s not shade if I’m just straight up saying your reaction is concerning and you could be scum?

[MathBlade]

Wouldn't that just mean its a good manipulation tactic.

It's certainly manipulative. But town can be manipulative. This is the sorta thing that's OK for town to make -- as their own lim is not really that bad for town -- but risky for scum to make (as if people do call the bluff and start wagoning you, on D1 when there's no solid leads anyway, there's no backing out).

And the payoff is... what... A miselim on Autumn Leaves? That sounds like a terrible decision for scum to make.

Hmm you can go in my no elim pool today too.

[Menalque]

Fb is in your no elim pool despite your earlier concerns on him bc he’s voting for someone who pinged you but who you admittedly haven’t read most of the posts of?

^there you go math, that’s what shade looks like

[MathBlade]

@math again, that’s only an attack insofar as you’re perceiving it as one? If you’d said “no, there is no evidence of town saying this is optimal anywhere” then yes, I would have had to evaluate it on its own merits

But cognitive load wise it’s a lot easier to just ask if there is evidence of town players with a solid grasp of strategy saying the same thing elsewhere than to do that off the bat

Is it lazy of me? Sure, but I think being lazy on the things I can be lazy on is perfectly justifiable (and I think you’d have a very hard time arguing I’ve been lazy with regard to this game in general)

Your second paragraph is exactly why I think you’re scum. It’s easier to attack where the idea originated than the merits of the idea. I already said it was weird. I expected push back but on the merits not the source.

Again, why should I bother trying to sort the merits myself if I can proxy that out to known good faith town?

Because those players are not in this game, you are. Sometimes the best strategy overall is not the best case here. Everything has to be evaluated at the time it’s said and with the context of the game. “Eg all fake claimers die” is really more a “almost all fake claimers die” except when dealing with someone like Radiant Cowbells. It’s forcing the work you should be doing onto others and I hate it.

[MathBlade]

And okay fine, go and read my iso and come back to me then

But fmpov you’re overreacting to what wasn’t even a push/shade (again, I suppose I can see how you can view it as shade but in that case it was unintentional)

And that overreaction itself is making me uneasy

Lmao calling something an overreaction to shade me more while saying it’s not a shade. I can’t. Lol

It’s not shade if I’m just straight up saying your reaction is concerning and you could be scum?

That’s literally shade lol

A shade is a post designed and/or poking someone to make them look bad. Calling my reaction an overreaction poisons the mind of the reader. It’s a trick I use as scum a lot.

[MathBlade]

Fb is in your no elim pool despite your earlier concerns on him bc he’s voting for someone who pinged you but who you admittedly haven’t read most of the posts of?

^there you go math, that’s what shade looks like

Correct.
Firebringer is a player who is easily sorted with a bit of pressure.
And if I waited to read everyone’s iso before voting it would be a very long while before I did anything. I don’t roll like that. I vote what pings me and when I get time I look back and make sure it’s justified.