TM 2023 | Super Mario Bros Mafia | Game Over!

[petapan]

VOTE: RR

[petapan]

VOTE: jingle

[petapan]

Stop sheeping LLD, peta. She can't read me.

nervous energy detected

[petapan]

Stop sheeping LLD, peta. She can't read me.

nervous energy detected

I have no idea who you are, but is this serious or not?

it's as serious a read as a page 2 vote gets, which is generally not very

(hi, i played mostly from 2010-2013, by 2014 i had a job and couldn't really play anymore although i tried to hack it on alts for a bit, retired for a few years then covid hit and i came back here out of boredom)

[petapan]

it is impressive that jingle managed to predict LLD scumreading him, but that wasn't why i made my vote because i'm a big boy who makes his own decisions

[petapan]

LLD has never not scumread me and also we literally just swept a town together, it's not very impressive.

Koba wants to know what Dunn thinks.

dunn also thought one of your posts was scummy (19). he actually said this before i voted you but i wasn't reading the chat

[petapan]

This isn't too sure it uh... sees how that's scummy?

LLD has never not scumread me and also we literally just swept a town together, it's not very impressive.

Koba wants to know what Dunn thinks.

dunn also thought one of your posts was scummy (19). he actually said this before i voted you but i wasn't reading the chat

Can you elaborate on why was that post of his scummy? When I had a look at it I wasn't able to see how was it scummy.

the expressed reasoning was that it feels like he knows the answer but wants to appear solvey

[petapan]

the expressed reasoning was that it feels like he knows the answer but wants to appear solvey

Ehhh... This one doesn't really get that impression in the first place, but also scum probably weren't told about the power-up beforehand (there really isn't a need to when it gets announced to everyone at the start of the day) and even if they were they'd probably get the same description of it's effect.

i don't really wanna quibble over it because it's dunn's logic and not mine but i was asked specifically about his thoughts so i provided that answer

[petapan]

i would give adorable the doublevote

[petapan]

Why is wgeurts lower than Cerb?

Because we think wogurts has a strong potential to be scum aorn. Ask a silly question...

do tell

[petapan]

jingle do you often make reads lists on page 4 of games

[petapan]

jingle do you often make reads lists on page 4 of games

Mostly a sign that I'm bored with the pace of the game. I can't say I've played enough mafia since coming out of retirement to say I often do anything, and preretirement pinning down my meta based on specific actions was an exercise in futility.

it's, like, hum

it struck me as possibly trying too hard too soon/stretching to make conclusions where most of the content so far was thin - although i have slight vibes etc i haven't felt like committing things to written words yet

but i think being bored is at least plausible i guess - i certainly want more but i'm usually at least content to let games run at their own pace

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

[petapan]

Because we think wogurts has a strong potential to be scum aorn. Ask a silly question...

ok, why?

I think Cerb's posts have been lengthy and wordy but don't have much meat to them & feel vaguely pocket-y of wgeurts

how much meat would you expect based on when in the game they were posted?

[petapan]

Oh, no, in this particular instance it was because I was talking through reads with Koba. We've probably talked more about this game today than there is actual content in this game. The curse of having free time and a teammate like Koba.

oh followup question, how much is koba yelling at you that i'm scum

[petapan]

The read is primarily koba's (and has been) but I'm not expected to force it through atm. I think you are scum independent of that, however.

lol, lmao

[petapan]

Do you seriously think you have reliable reads at this point?

guess what i think you're town

how's that for reliable

[petapan]

I’m asking more philosophically, not directly at you. Do people in general ever have reliable reads on page 5? Haven’t even read the game btw

But I was asking you

i thought you were asking jingle tbh - i'm certainly not displaying a strong level of commitment to any read i make esp. since i've unvoted him but that's why i'm going through the process of talking to people


sometimes i get good hunches early, i caught titus on page 6 of datisi's cafe, but that's usually dependent on a degree of meta. but i'm fully aware not every early read is going to be a banger and am tempering my approach to be cautious here

this is especially true in team mafia because having 3 other people shouting in your ear very often creates an echo chamber effect that can lead you to confirmation bias your reads, and that can lead to people mutually tunneling each other and consuming the thread in a destructive fashion. i am trying to avoid this

[petapan]

VOTE: hpe

[petapan]

sup

[petapan]

Not much. What about you(r vote)?

you look like you're posting just to post

[petapan]

this is especially true in team mafia because having 3 other people shouting in your ear very often creates an echo chamber effect that can lead you to confirmation bias your reads, and that can lead to people mutually tunneling each other and consuming the thread in a destructive fashion. i am trying to avoid this

Noted but also ew.

be grateful i'm overriding the the devils on my shoulder who are calling for your head

i'm not sure i see the wgeurts read but it's

interesting

[petapan]

busy day today, lots to catch up on, may be a bit spammy sorry but i like to have separate ideas in separate posts

Porkens

Coming in to say that they don't place much stock in early game reads in post 106 and then providing nothing of substance thereafter means I have nothing to really go off really. First had a slight town lean on them as I liked them indicating a Peta town lean in 107 which matched my view, and I could see possible thought process behind 111 leaning scum on Jingle despite disagreeing. But the post made before 107 that very same minute says that they hadn't read the game yet, which eliminates any substance there. Similarly anything of substance regarding his interaction with Jingle is dismissed in post 116. Unsure why people are town leaning here, or is it because of the above too?

my half snapped off gut feeling was the blasé attitude of 103 was more likely to come from town and i thought it'd be funny to make a read on him for a post saying people shouldn't have reliable reads at this point

[petapan]

Adorable

Adorable is gonna be a pain for me to sort as I didn't like any of their posting at first, with them going from stating they have no reads in post 40, to posting a whole bunch of no substance burger like in 47 and 48 etc. After consulting Xof, apparently this is just how they play and is consistent with a town game they played. Like... post 109 doesn't even make sense? I'd think it self-evident Cerb isn't town piling me there and how can you then use that as the basis for anything? This slot is going to be a headache for me to gauge.

If anything, of note is that they mentioned the double voting mechanic twice in 30 and 67. I'm interested why they were so focused on it?

can confirm this, was in the same game with xof and Adorable (it was the previous TM in 2021) and Adorable was exactly like this. Their playstyle is very...I'd say earnest? That doesn't feel quite like the right word but I don't know how to describe it. From research they are capable of leaning into their play style as scum but overall i think their play here is probably town indicative

i do overall think that wallpost from wgeurts is pretty good and my team has backed me up on that so okay with a town lean on them

[petapan]

oh yeah this one's easy already page 2
VOTE: HighPrincess

hi Fate, been a long time, you probably don't remember me, we might've only played once


LLD has a question: why HPE over Jingle? they're both terrible on page 2

[petapan]

I had some towny feelings on Jingle and petapan earlier but am going to be more wary of those slots

this is the correct way to play around both of us

[petapan]

Beyond that, going to actually VOTE: Fate. This one wants some more out of you, please.

Porkens is being useless, but that's unfortunately something people do as town as well as scum. So I need more information. Why aren't you voting Porkens over Fate, as he's not exactly giving much either? @HPE

Because this one very much wants Fate to start talking considering they've provided even less than Porkens has. You ARE still on my list, but this one would really like these two to get to generating content, Fate especially.

I would appreciate a response to my question about who you are and how you do the mafia things!

If this one is going to sheep, it tries to sheep people it agrees with and trusts, and confidence doesn't usually have much to do with that, it thinks.

Fate not explaining things is Fate-indicative rather than anything alignment based, I'm biased to like the playstyle because it remind me of ye olden days but i don't think anything says a lot

i don't love the vote though because it kind of comes across as an easy surface level thing to push on. how do you feel about the people who

have

posted substantive content? i know you've made mentions elsewhere but i'm looking for a little more depth here

[petapan]

cerb mostly comes across as null in everything he's posted so far. but maybe scummy given the lack of solid stances in all that posts. (i have an instinctive bias against quote stripes that has little basis in reality though)

[petapan]

HPE, is there anyone in this game who you are not currently suspicious of, and why? I appreciate a focus on scum, but also, like, identifying town is important.

And okay, then - in that case, what exactly was the problem you had with someone stating their reads are unreliable? Can you walk me through that reasoning, if the confidence someone projects doesn't have much to do with it?

Feeling pretty good about Jingle, and to a lesser extent petapan, mostly because they've been absent a bit. They've both been making rather nice posts (its hard to pin down specific ones to point out unfortunately) and Jingle's ISO in particularly feels very very solvey.

That's a good question, honestly, this one hasn't been thinking too super hard about it until you asked. It just felt like at the moment a kind of weird thing to say. "Hey guys, my reads are unreliable!" is, technically a humble and truthful thing to say because no one can ever be super precise, but its also kinda like, why should we believe you then? Jingle's been doing good, as mentioned, so its kinda whatever, but it just put this one off a bit. Guess that's really all there is to it.

I'm still unsure how why you singled them out for potential scum motivation if their accusations have been the same as others tbh

To clarify: You asked what makes you and peta's accusations different from wgeurts'. This one said the only common link was that you all three said it wasn't posting much of substance, because otherwise only wgeurts was making further accusations in the readwall like with the Jingle thing or power-up talk, etc.

i guess i probably shoulda read through before making that last post

this is still kind of vague to me and doesn't give me a ton to go off

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

meh

if

HPE is town cerb's approach to it strikes me as being potentially scummy


i like CSF's posts and think this is probably her town game

LLD has been badgering me to get her reads into the thread, i think she's been wanting to micromanage everyone while waiting for hers to start lol

she thinks CSF, Adorable, and wgeurts are town, I agree with these as i've more or less expressed

she thought hpe was town at first but didn't like its fate vote

[petapan]

Powerup Vote: Adorable

i don't think a public doublevote is especially consequential in a majority elimination game but also have been fine with it going to adorable for a while

[petapan]

ps no I don't remember you, but bonus points if you link to said game since apparently there's an archive system now and all the

drugs

madness have taken a toll on my recall

viewtopic.php?t=22659

you were an IC so i didn't have to read you and if i remember right you were mentally checked out from being conftown

but man

what a playerlist

[petapan]

not feeling well today will catch up tomorrow

[petapan]

Peta {BoP about scummy, calls him flaccid , nothing to townread in his posts. Overall low substance and small scope given the team and the small size of the game.}

this is about par for the course for me for the record and the idea that i'd be less motivated as scum is cuckoo

for the record yesterday my allergies flared up and i couldn't go 2 minutes without hacking up a lung so i had little interest in this game (today i am feeling better)

but even had i read the game yesterday i'm not sure i'd have a ton to comment on, i found the pages between my last 2 posts to be shockingly sparse for actual meaningful content. the HPE wagon suddenly felt wrong to me, i didn't have a strong alternate target, so i was mainly waiting to see if something else caught my attention, really. i didn't like princess's vote back on fate and the justification for it but it's just one post, i'm probably going to do a quick bit of meta there today

[petapan]

Still pending an ISO analysis on peta of my own due to other things but this one thinks it's seeing where you're coming from, but it'll withhold an actual scumread for that ISO dive.

Okay yeah, this is definitely a bit bad. This one can concur that peta doesn't seem to be making as many actual points of substance as he's trying to look like he is. This one thinks it'd be willing to vote there but it has bigger wgeurts-shaped fish to fry so that's probably not happening anytime soon.

so this caught my eye and so far as i can see the entire justification you have for your case on wgeurts is still their case on you which looks to me to be profoundly mediocre reasoning for a scumread

[petapan]

Peta {BoP about scummy, calls him flaccid , nothing to townread in his posts. Overall low substance and small scope given the team and the small size of the game.}

this is about par for the course for me for the record and the idea that i'd be less motivated as scum is cuckoo

for the record yesterday my allergies flared up and i couldn't go 2 minutes without hacking up a lung so i had little interest in this game (today i am feeling better)

but even had i read the game yesterday i'm not sure i'd have a ton to comment on, i found the pages between my last 2 posts to be shockingly sparse for actual meaningful content. the HPE wagon suddenly felt wrong to me, i didn't have a strong alternate target, so i was mainly waiting to see if something else caught my attention, really. i didn't like princess's vote back on fate and the justification for it but it's just one post, i'm probably going to do a quick bit of meta there today

(also BoP is a concept for town play and my award is for scum play sooo....??)

[petapan]

HPE {proactive, lots of references when discussing reads, evidence behind thoughts, natural progression}

hmm this is a lot of vague buzzwords that don't mean anything

hpe's play to that point was almost certainly NOT proactive, it even admitted as much when being pushed

providing references...doesn't actually mean anything? why can't scum provide references when they discuss their reads? isn't that like the bare minimum of having thoughts? what are these "natural progressions"?

[petapan]

ok IM feeling thorough so I went back and read

NOWHBERE DOES IT SAAY ANYTHING IN THIS SETUP ABOUT IT BEING ONLY 2 SCUM SO

A teammate of mine said I should get the double vote power which is why I said in the thread I would be willing to take it.

Why did they recommend it?

I don't want to say it now when we got 2 scum roaming around.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i thought classic scumslips like this didn't happen anymroe


am I missing something

lol okay fate is town i'm okay with shelving any tinfoil i had there

yes can be faked etc etc but i think this is perfectly in line with his personality to miss

[petapan]

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

[petapan]

jingle/princess's justification for their reads on each other both seem like horse hockey to me, but that type of dynamic is rare for scum/scum pairings altho if koba is pushing the reads it is possible. still would want to avoid getting over-ambitious on day 1 but, like, a lot of other people are just townies i think

[petapan]

For that to be the case, it would mean Fate's hypothetical partner is someone with a teammate on your list of people who may know you, right?

Which, skimming over the team list could only be petapan.

I've had brewing suspicions on him for a while now, mostly because early game he seemed to be actively avoiding doing content, so I'll bite there. I don't necessarily think you're right, but peta being actually scummy to me and doubling as a sanity check on the very stylish hat sounds good.

VOTE: petapan

i don't think i was "actively avoiding doing content" at all, even if i was pretty reticent to state conclusions

also, you don't think jingle is necessarily right with the paranoia on fate being informed by his teammate about how to play around jingle, but are willing to vote me to test it???

(ftr i have no concrete memories of playing with bingle since coming out of retirement - we might have played in a datisi hosted secret hitler game but that isn't mafia and is a marathon game so is totally irrelevant, i have ~no useful meta on how he plays)

[petapan]

ftr porkens is trending strongly toward what i would expect of him as scum - being lazy, shitposting, making excuses rather than delivering content

he doesn't really like playing scum and it shows

i think it's kinda more likely the jingle/princess dynamic is one jumping in the other's pocket and just by relative experience level i kinda feel like it'd be jingle who's the scum

my whole team was screaming at me that 465 is a horrible post twisting words in the most uncharitable way - i don't really have the patience for big back and forths as town but i'd probably be remiss to leave it unaddressed

[petapan]

We played in the generational family game off the top of my head. And how in the love of god did you think wgeurts’ wall was anything but garbage?

Mobile atm, but I do plan on it. But do you legitimately think anyone looks at that original wall and goes “this is compelling”?

brah you can't just come in and call posts garbage without support, what's wrong with it

[petapan]

(it's funny cuz it makes some nice, well-argued points that i think are coming from a townie, but i'm not convinced it makes hpe definite scum

[petapan]

if it's wrong it gets rid of a person with bad reads

Spoiler:

kidding

[petapan]

if it's wrong it gets rid of a person with bad reads

Spoiler:

kidding

Kindly also put your money where your mouth is and go for someone too, assuming you're done reading.

i'm not lol

[petapan]

This one believes it has an understanding of how Porkens and Fate play now, and that's "silly". Neither seems to be a very high-content poster or much of ones to elaborate on why they do the things they do, but this one was still figuring that out. Fate was ESPECIALLY doing nothing, so it threw a vote onto them that went nowhere of use as they didn't really stir from it. It went back to you as it realized that Fate and Porkens just Play Like That and that trying to strongly scumread them for it is just... eh. Which is why this one asks: Do you often try to elim people based on their playstyle? Because your choices of vote on me/Porkens/Fate really gives the impression you do, unless you don't? Because if you don't then it's low-hanging fruit to try and get the low-contents who are always low-content.

fate is very much doing things and imo it's uncharitable to describe him as not - you might not like it or find it hard to read into but he's said stuff (towny stuff imo)

i think you shouldn't make assumptions about people play just based on the game you're in - porkens can often be low-effort, but he's more than capable of producing substance as town (note: his early posts in that game had him using chatGPT as a gimmick, he drops it at iso #13 so skip there), and the fact that he hasn't done so here and seemingly hasn't read the game despite having multiple teammates who could help him, is legitimately scummy


i also think if you're going to chalk things up to a clash of playstyles, why can't you assume it would be town vs town and they're misreading you due to not understanding how you play? not every push

has

to have malicious intent. i think wgeurts legitimately believes their whole iso-dive case trying to bury you, the way they talk about it feels like genuine belief over

[petapan]

i gotta be honest here wgeurts vs hpe is starting to have a whiff of tvt to it which i know will annoy wgeurts but i think jingle is the one positioning himself around it, i don't really think his townread of princess actually makes sense or has good reasoning behind it, he's just buddying up to the newbie who is townreading him for NAI behavior


265 is in fact a complete dogshit post that as much as it stretches and twists can't actually establish a reason as to why that stuff makes me scum besides "he not have many stances". basically not worth my time but i will address this:

Where is the scum motivation in 'committing to written words' when there's not a lot to go on?

it struck my as a possible instance of trying too hard, too soon - a very basic tell where scum will try to appear solvy when the game doesn't really merit doing so. having reads arranged into a list on page 4 struck me as potentially being a case of that. but also, it was the early game so i was hardly going to commit to a push based solely on that, and at any rate i thought "i'm bored" might have been a plausible excuse

[petapan]

I read the wallposts that were about Peta and HPE. The stuff they did looked nai to me and I don't know how to read them.

do you have anyone in the game you do have a read on?

[petapan]

From my pov I can't really think of anyone who would be HPE scum partner.

you think hpe is unaligned with everyone in the game?

[petapan]

I read the wallposts that were about Peta and HPE. The stuff they did looked nai to me and I don't know how to read them.

do you have anyone in the game you do have a read on?

Lean town on Jingle and wgeurts.

I want to see Cerb post more because I might be bias on this read but his approach towards me gave me scum vibes. The questions they asked me were not good, he said a post of mine is 55% - 44% scum which I disagree on, when CSF asked Cerb what would their solve of a team be they said Adorable/Jingle and on the same post they said the team is unlikely and I was thinking what was even the point of answering that question when they said the team is unlikely.

okay thank you for the answer

[petapan]

so here's the deal

Cat Scratch Fever is a townie. This is a meta read, and meta reads tend to be annoying if you don't know the person, but it is what it is. she's much moe low-effort/low investment as scum

wgeurts is town because there's legitimate conviction in their highprincesserinys push, annoyance at porkens doing nothing, even starting to get irritated with me for not doing anything with my vote. they're someone who is very clearly trying to solve the game.

Fate is town because i don't think he fakes derping on the setup like that as scum and cuz i think he believes thstuff he's pushing on

Adorable also probably town for earnestness but i have a weak spot for players who sound earnest. there's a little more uncertainty here because she's been playing a bit reserved but i think her recent posts come across as fairly plausible explanations for her reads

radical rat mostly looks the part of a townie with how they've been going about things, their vote on me is silly but i don't think it's scum-motivated

cerb idfk he hasn't done anything but is kind of yolo town. him accusing hpe of beetlejuicing felt a lil opportunistic maybe but it might be one of those cases where i'd expect a player to try to project towniness a little more as scum. i'm content to give him a pass for today and let him cook i guess

i want to ponder hpe here but my gut is kind of telling me they're town still and jingle's defense of it just looks like it's coming from an informed to my eyes

jingle i just think is kind of scum because his case on me stinks, his perspective has been frozen in amber since page 4, it doesn't feel like he's truly attempting to evaluate or analyze anything people say, he just has a perspective he wants to push which is me/wgeurts being scum, regardless of how much sense it makes

porkens is prolly just scum cuz he's frozen and not playing the game

[petapan]

yeah nah jingle is crawling up hpe's butt there because he knows it's flipping town

VOTE: porkens
VOTE: jingle

[petapan]

i think he's successfully pocketed the whole game though so this is gunna be uphill, but idc i'll be fucking annoying about it until one of us is dead

[petapan]

They're obsessed with who's voting them and whether or not they can wagons going whilst not being interested in pushing their own named scum-reads: see porkens.

Yes, HPE is the only passive player this game. And also, HPE isn't pushing it's scumreads, when the previous point that you had boiled down to HPE is pushing a scumread on you that's wrong. This is literally contradicting your own case.

this bit here is logic pedant shit that scum love to hide behind - all being technically correct but meaningless -

ah ha

, hpe is not the only passive player in the game, your case is null and void. except that's not how mafia works. and it's a bad interpretation anyway that really evades the point wgeurts was trying to make about hpe (that it is allegedly more interested in defending itself and pushing viable wagons rather than trying to convince others of its scumreads)

overly confident defense of hpe that assumes the best possible motives for all of its actions and decides there is absolutely no merit to anything wgeurts says - this is cuz jingle knows hpe is town

[petapan]

ftr porkens is trending strongly toward what i would expect of him as scum - being lazy, shitposting, making excuses rather than delivering content

I vaguely remember this just being Porkens. Do you have any evidence that town porkens is different? (legitimate question, not trying to cast shade)

i literally linked two of them already but again:

open chatgpt: viewtopic.php?t=90462 (again he's gimmicking for 13 posts or so, keep scrolling down and you'll see where he stops using chatgpt to write responses)
weird dreams mafia: viewtopic.php?t=90611 (it's a replace in, but, like, that game had a similarish number of posts to where this one is at now)

like he can be lazy and low effort at times but all available evidence from what i've seen is that as town he is capable of actually trying but as scum he barely cares

[petapan]

Who do you vote if Jingle goes green?

porkens probably still but i'd have to re-eval on people

[petapan]

That wall wasn't about "Why is HPE town" it was about "Why was wgeurts' case garbage." So what, exactly, is super compelling and slam dunk about wgeurts' scumcase on HPE that lead to:

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

And it's not like you don't know the motivation behind why I posted that, because both you and wgeurts literally asked why the case wasn't compelling.

no i know the motivation it's that your attempted fisking of it really sucks and seems like you have started from the conclusion hpe is town and worked backwards to discredit everything and there's noooo way anyone could see that stuff as scummy, when, like, hpe looks pretty opportunistic with its votes

[petapan]

on second thought

UNVOTE:

VOTE: porkens

this is probably a better day 1 vote

there's an edge case scenario where i'm wrong and pushing jingle today is antitown

[petapan]

hpe looks pretty opportunistic with its votes

I don't disagree that the optics there look bad, I disagree that the optics looking bad are indicative that HPE is scum. HPE looks like its floundering without any fucking clue what to do, and that isn't a thing I expect to see from scum in most cases. That's something I expect to see from awkward people. And whatever else it is, HPE certainly gives off the awkward vibe.

yeah i mean i kind of get your point it's just easy to see someone gradually walking back a townread on someone when they become a viable wagon and think there might be scum motivation in it

[petapan]

(i am biased of course because the person having the read walked back on is me)

[petapan]

(i am biased of course because the person having the read walked back on is me)

I happen to have the exact opposite bias of thinking all of the things I said are scum indicative of you are, in fact, scum indicative of you. I'm open to being wrong though, and am more than happy to discuss reads. It's the happy upside to being very much so not confident about my reads. I can admit that I might be wrong and engage people in good faith even when screaming that they need to die.

Who do you think makes sense as an HPE partner, since you seem to think it wouldn't be me?

i am not pushing hpe as scum currently

[petapan]

Oh, and someone mentioned that DK's reads were very buzzwordy. Yeah, that's kinda just the easiest way to paraphrase a wall. Find buzzwords that roughly fit what I think they're saying and if clarification becomes necessary I can put in more effort.

that was me

anyway i think it's i think it's possible we're town trying to teach each other's throats out and scum are just filing their nails. we agree on adorable and CSF town, i wanna re-check radical rat but i think i am okay with them

[petapan]

i am not pushing hpe as scum currently

Sure, because you think I'm scum and I don't make sense as an HPE partner. I'm still interested in getting the answer because from my POV if I flip green there's nothing stopping you from turning around and pushing HPE again.

right but there's nothing stopping me from going after anyone and pushing them after you're dead? i started to call wgeurts and hpe tvt within the last hour or so. i still haven't fully digested princess's defense because i've been tangoing with you but that's not a direction i'm interested in pursuing. i'm not sure what you're looking for here exactly?

[petapan]

I'm looking for a reason to think you're town. Basically:

It's all about tailoring the game to a place where we CAN solve the game instead of just trying to solve the game from the opening of the thread.

if you haven't figured out i'm town because you're too invested in not liking my pushes i don't think me arguing with you is going to help it. like i can tell you me doing a whipsaw 180 on your alignment after announcing i was going to death tunnel you doesn't come from me as scum but you are under no obligation to believe me


i'd rather talk to you about your worldview, find common ground in perspective, and hopefully eliminate scum based on building a good towncore

[petapan]

not actually solidly convinced RR is town on iso 132 is a real stretch of a read. i like the skepticism in 164/196 but it's like one fully formed thought that doesn't go anywhere while not having a lot elsewhere, all their PUSHes have been pretty tepid before piggybackingriding off jingle's vote on me

so probably wouldn't towncore RR over people i have better reasons to townread

[petapan]

i'd rather talk to you about your worldview, find common ground in perspective, and hopefully eliminate scum based on building a good towncore

Like discussing the gamestate reasons that HPE makes more sense as town than scum?

Tell me more about your CSF read. I vaguely like them tonally but I can't remember anything from them I think was exceptionally town.

lmao

man if you wanted to make that argument just say it don't make me do the homework

!!!

i wouldn't be

stunned

if hpe were scum with fate even though they voted each other, or RR, or, like, adorable but i wouldn't consider any of those especially

likely

. i am willing to accept "no viable partners" reads but usually not on day 1

i just kind of think hpe might town on its own merits

---

regardarding CSF: 84 is a pointed question off a good observation (88) that i also thought at the time, 136 is a good uestion of how HPE was using phrasing that avoided directly calling things scummy

but at the same time she's pushing HPE she's also questioning people pushing HPE - 189/212 - actively attempting to understand their mindset and looking at multiple angles, not idly accepting votes on a target

in general asking pointed questions and trying to figure people out

[petapan]

would it help if i pinkie promised not to push HPE if you died and flipped town

[petapan]

For that to be the case, it would mean Fate's hypothetical partner is someone with a teammate on your list of people who may know you, right?

Which, skimming over the team list could only be petapan.

I've had brewing suspicions on him for a while now, mostly because early game he seemed to be actively avoiding doing content, so I'll bite there. I don't necessarily think you're right, but peta being actually scummy to me and doubling as a sanity check on the very stylish hat sounds good.

VOTE: petapan

i don't think i was "actively avoiding doing content" at all, even if i was pretty reticent to state conclusions

also, you don't think jingle is necessarily right with the paranoia on fate being informed by his teammate about how to play around jingle, but are willing to vote me to test it???

(ftr i have no concrete memories of playing with bingle since coming out of retirement - we might have played in a datisi hosted secret hitler game but that isn't mafia and is a marathon game so is totally irrelevant, i have ~no useful meta on how he plays)

You made a lot of naked votes with no actual elaboration, partly during RVS, but even then the point of RVS is to generate content, not JUST vote randomly.

Let that suspicion sit for a while to see if you ever got better and... not really. It's picked up a bit now that you're actually in danger though, so let's keep that danger looming a bit, eh?

naked votes are usually more productive than people fluffing with their friends

[petapan]

csf's scum game is probably better than i'm giving her credit for if erecent new game is any indication but i've still liked a bunch of the posts she's made

[petapan]

Let that suspicion sit for a while to see if you ever got better and... not really. It's picked up a bit now that you're actually in danger though, so let's keep that danger looming a bit, eh?

hey, this really made me angry, so if you could not talk to me this way ever that would be great

[petapan]

Let that suspicion sit for a while to see if you ever got better and... not really. It's picked up a bit now that you're actually in danger though, so let's keep that danger looming a bit, eh?

hey, this really made me angry, so if you could not talk to me this way ever that would be great

I'm sorry, I'm actually confused here. Is it just because it's too theatrical?

i took a single day off from the game because i was feeling sick and to have it implied i was trying to lurk out and only started posting due to getting voted by you is really insulting

[petapan]

i took a single day off from the game because i was feeling sick and to have it implied i was trying to lurk out and only started posting due to getting voted by you is really insulting

In fairness, regardless of reasoning you did drop off a bit. I accept the reasoning and most certainly no longer have reservations with the amount of contribution you're giving (It's better than most of the thread) but your reaction is surprisingly strong here.

Do you think Rat is trying to paint a narrative or do you think rat is town who is just being generally uncharitable?

if i would probably not be as annoyed if i thought it was scum doing it because then it would register as insincere

[petapan]

people fluffing with their friends

Is there anyone 'fluffing with their friends' in lieu of giving content fypov? Afaict, the big offenders for not giving content are kind of just not doing anything at all.

oh, and UNVOTE:

Not sure I endorse a peta lim atm.

no that was a reaction radical rat's suggestion that me naked voting in rvs is unhelpful when it's purely a stylistic choice for me and i usually get decent mileage out of it

[petapan]

my stances get more defined as the day goes on because that's kind of how the game works

[petapan]

Prodding Porkens

oh look

[petapan]

I can kind of see this, but the self acknowledgment of how poorly made the original case was to the point of reworking it unprompted and the immediate handwaving of peta being convinced by it making sense still strikes me as dissonant.

That would be a point against peta's favor though, right?

Spoiler:

i like the wall

Why as town are you even focused on whether or not people are "altogether interested" in a wagon or not anyway?

this bit in particular resonates with me because i think scum often get caught using this type of reasoning about what is/isn't a viable wagon

I'm not sure whether he likes the content in the wall or simply thinks it was written by town. Probably the former given the second sentence

I disagree with the reasoning there... I think town moves their vote all the time to avoid vanity wagoning. Not sure if it moves the needle on my read though

Though come to think of it, weren't there 3 votes on the Fate wagon at the time? Why did HPE think the wagon wasn't viable?

my first impression was that it was making decent points against HPE but there's an acknowledgement that a case can make decent points and still be wrong and HPE's defense made me consider that it is, in fact, just wrong

[petapan]

i think regardless of the meta tell, the issue i'd raise with porkens is that this is team mafia and even if he's not into the game he has 3 teammates who should be able to help him, and yet, nary a peep? imaginality i'd expect might not have time for juggling multiple games, but biancopspino i'd expect to have some input, i don't know dragoneater70, but he seems high energy, do we really believe no one from his team is thinking about or reading the game at all?

[petapan]

kind of a hard game if porkens is scum though because if so he has abandoned the game and his teammate is left for dead which means we have to spend the rest of the game hunting a serial killer

[petapan]

*teammate has left him for dead

[petapan]

Cringy but I haven’t had time to catch up.

I suggest you folx look for the people who are posting what looks like content but is really just avoiding wagons at all costs. I usually find scum there. I’ll do a proper catchup asasp

okay but what are your teammates saying about this game

[petapan]

Porkens is basically a policy elim at this point

We can do better

oh maybe you did roll scum huh

[petapan]

i'm going to be honest here the last 100 or so posts of faffing about do not interest me

fucking kill porkens

this should not be hard

[petapan]

like do you honestly expect at any point he's going to get better or is he just going to stall endlessly and throw you crumbs in the hope you'll get cold feet and kill a townie

[petapan]

i'm going to be honest here the last 100 or so posts of faffing about do not interest me

fucking kill porkens

this should not be hard

Why aren't we killing you tho is a decent question

Tell me what your teammates think of the current situation, don't stall now

there haven't been any posts since april 20th because i haven't felt the need to discuss things with them, but i just asked

[petapan]

There's multiball levels of scum in this thread god Porkens is likely town via PoE

Peta if you're town work WITH me

that makes no sense whatsoever unless you believe you've caught the exact team and you almost certainly have not

frankly trying to spare the guy not playing the game is more scummy than not because

if

he is town (which to be clear, i do not believe is the case), keeping him around has pro-scum utility

[petapan]

I did not like Porkens recent post about me and it looked like they were making up a reason to scum read me. I'm good with a Cerb and Porkens wagon.

?????????????????????????????

what the hell is your narrative that porkens recent vote was scum on scum

I never said this was scum on scum. Don't make stuff up.

I'm not talking to you scum.

JUST POINTING OUT HOW ADORABLE CONVENIENTLY IS HAPPY WITH EITHER CERB AND PORKENS

if thats yr case it's a bad one

[petapan]

i mean if there is anyone who is playing like they're happy with almost any elim it's...

...u

*gasp*

[petapan]

But think of how little town utility and info comes from his flip, like how many connections and interactions has had that are useful at all?


Compared to how Wgeurts wagon has risen and fallen for instance?

No I don't think I have the exact scum team, I'll call it when I want to be able to quote it post game. I have strong gut feel about things, but nothing concrete or tangible enough to break the game open


Now IF Porkens plays exactly like this D2 that's another story he's a liability

But not a D1 elim

if he's caught scum there is going to be no utility at any point whatsoever because he's going to keep shelling up so i don't see your point

eliminating scum is the most protown thing you can do

(the second most protown thing is killing bad players who don't play the game)

[petapan]

I'm not pushing am adorable lim I'm going for wgeurts who essentially prod dodged as he waited for which way the wind would blow after Cerbs claim which is still elim worthy By the way

#JOATCLAIMSARESCUM

so somehow someone prod dodging for a couple days is elim worthy but not someone prod dodging all of day 1

[petapan]

lld says for me to tell fate cerberus reads like a townie who was not used to the aggression and was busy so it led to a bad claim and a bad outcome

she wants to give cerberus a 1 night lease

she also says that your suspicion of me is "a bit of a SpyreX situation"

she also agrees with me that porkens is obv scumming it up and being a cheeky lurkfuck

not really that hard to get answers from teammates in this within a reasonable time frame

[petapan]

I'm not pushing am adorable lim I'm going for wgeurts who essentially prod dodged as he waited for which way the wind would blow after Cerbs claim which is still elim worthy By the way

#JOATCLAIMSARESCUM

so somehow someone prod dodging for a couple days is elim worthy but not someone prod dodging all of day 1

Porkens isn't prod dodging, say what you will about play style but there's precense timing and other readable things to his actions

Wgeurts literally came in at a pivotal moment to say absolutely nothing

i think coming in at the moment to say nothing is a sign of lack of investment/getting busy, which can happen to scum but it can also happen to town (it certainly happens to me). i can see someone who hasn't played in a long time getting a bit burned out but they have posted plenty of readable content and i thought the content was

fine

. you might disagree, that's okay, but i don't think disappearing now is indicative of alignment - it's indicative of being busy.

[petapan]

Wdym it led to a bad claim

her words, not mine

i think the claim is w/e and not worth pushing it on day 1

[petapan]

LLD also say i should tell fate that #JoatClaimsAreScum is a truism, and as with all truisms, it eventually comes false, like Ythan in OoT mafia as link

Wdym it led to a bad claim

her words, not mine

i think the claim is w/e and not worth pushing it on day 1

her clarification is that it came under minimal duress thinking it would remove pressure, and that's a bad way to claim (fwiw i agree but that type of claim is >rand town)

[petapan]

I'm only suspicious of you because your paranoia breeds paranoia, we can both go back to being town dropping your townread on me bc I'm anti Porkens Lim makes no sense at all

that was probably reactionary annoyance on my part but i have a reflexive dislike of reasoning like in 774 because i've seen scum make posts like that

it probably shouldn't invalidate my earlier read on you

[petapan]

WHAT LLD THINKS OF THIS PORKENS LIM YOURE PUSHING IS A BIT MORE OF CONSEQUENCE

BY

THE

WAY

i said her thoughts are he's obvscum

also she tells me you are just town and i should stop being dumb

[petapan]

Going to bed

If I come back to a green Porkens flip

Go ahead and shoot me, done with ya fucks

her advice to me is to let you cook and if you're certain enough to bet your vote tomorrow, i'll hand you my vote today unconditionally. if you're right, i keep following you until you're wrong. if not, you have to follow me tomorrow.

deal?

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

[petapan]

I get better later in the day

at what point in the day is that supposed to be

for the sheer sake of mercy i asked Dunn about the game he modded several years ago were you were scum, =9469]SIN and he said you actually made an effort to try that game, rather than doing nothing here, so has doubts on your alignment

so i'm here trying to ask what's going on and why you've been doing nothing but trolling all game day

[petapan]

that was actually hetold me to do: ask you straight up, why is there a difference?

[petapan]

why did you say "day" at first if you meant "game", those are pretty different things

[petapan]

i don't doubt it's real but also the routine of scum being run up and stalling while using appeals to emotion is a time-honored routine

so i don't actually care

[petapan]

@peta

Klick says to tell you not to tie your perspective to Fate on account of Fate being incredibly wrong

lol appreciated

[petapan]

Fair. What’s your take on wgeurts sudden departure from planet erf?

i don't have a take

they are likely busy for non game related reasons. they posted content before that was readable, i believe they will again

[petapan]

No deal peta, as much as I WANTED A DOUBLE VOTE it's not worth it today this town isn't budging on the Porkens train

shrug, at the time i wasn't sure i'd actually get what i wanted, i'm willing to hear you out tomorro if this wrong (but it probably isn't because porkens looks like he's scum trolling)

[petapan]

yeah so that's a scumclaim

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

everyone else off wagon i think is town tbqh. generally when scum plays like porkens their partner is going to recognize and cut bait sooner rather than later

[petapan]

oh i kept thinking it was a 9er and that was actually a selfhammer i'm silly

i'm still fine with giving wgeurts time to catch up

[petapan]

I do not have the mental capacity to read and digest all I can do is gut and meme but it promise keeping me alive for a few days will pay off BIG TIME HUGE

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Porkens

VOTE: Adorable

Soft. Included for funsies, Fate catching the soft and making himself incredibly town by reacting to it.

yes scum can never softclaim to dodge an elim thank you for that

[petapan]

the fact that jingle is giving porkens a million miles for a presumed softclaim that should in theory

directly oppose

cerb's claim makes no sense

aren't you supposed to be, like, good at mechanics?

[petapan]

lol

[petapan]

the fact that jingle is giving porkens a million miles for a presumed softclaim that should in theory

directly oppose

cerb's claim makes no sense

aren't you supposed to be, like, good at mechanics?

The fact actually is that jingle isn’t giving porkens any miles based on a soft claim that doesn’t at all effect the claim of cerbs that jingle doesn’t believe is actually clearing but rather that Jingle is pointing out that trying to hide a soft claim with a panic chainsaw into trying very publicly to derail the wagon literally anywhere else is ++town for fate. But I understand that words are hard.

lol your treatment of the two could not be more wildly divergent

[petapan]

Cerbs, do you remember overkill one? It was a A50 game where I literally broke the game based on flavor on d1, and I’m pretty sure you were unfortunate scum in an unbalanced setup. I then spent several days consecutively limming scum and making micro optimizations despite the game being functionally unwinnable for the scum team because I don’t discount anything. Ever.

That was one of my referenced MC games, Drixx and I were Mal, so yes, I do remember it, though I think it was more that the flavor cop results were basically cop results with day checks. And you were a mason. So there were 4 conftown on D1. But sure, give yourself all the credit. :p

Mmm, must be getting rusty, don't see how Porkens softing a PR counterclaims my own claim, but okay.

i don't actually believe he's softing fwiw but if he is it's +++scum for him

it's mainly that jingle's approach to the situation is scummy as fuck

[petapan]

but again if you presume porkens is supposed to be, like, an investigative i'd want that out in the open to see if it can actually reasonably fit in the setup alongside a JOAT claim - in a 10p game with only 2 scum i would expect the setup to be relatively power-light, especially with the powerup mechanic (the doublevote was mostly worthless but we don't know what future days are going to have). a game this size is likely to have very little town power.

jingle knows mechanics, he reviews a ton of setups, he should by all rights know that the two are unlikely to coexist but he's trying to deflect from porkens all while going "nuh uh no i'm not". for a playe whose scumhunting skills are self-admittedly bad he is pputting an absurd emphasis on his ill-founded social reads over trying to make a reasonable deduction based on mechanics. this makes literally no sense.

[petapan]

VOTE: peta, btw

flail harder

[petapan]

he's deflecting using sarcasm in the face of not bing able to actually produce a logical rebuttal here

[petapan]

So.... who was it that said Porkens flip was low info? Because I think things are starting to look pretty juicy personally

I did

Sure long term everything will come to Light

BUT LETS NOT MISS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR D1 SCUMFLIP

I REMEMBER

THE MOTIVATION

THE HIGH THAT COMES FROM THAT

DO NOT DENY ME THIS YOU LACKARDS

i am dragging you, kicking and screaming, to a day 1 scumflip

[petapan]

If Porkens did indeed soft earlier, I want him committed to a claim at the very least.

Why? We’re limming him anyway.

That is preferable. I'll be honest, i woke up today expecting him to already have claimed. Instead we're at the exact same place we were yesterday evening

he did claim (scum)

[petapan]

peta if you're still not voting

IN CASE MY VOTECOUNT WAS LOST THANKS TO CAKEZ

there are people who have actively stated they want to catch up brochacho i have no reason to end the day before then and in fact doing so would be anti town

[petapan]

yeah so that's a scumclaim

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

everyone else off wagon i think is town tbqh. generally when scum plays like porkens their partner is going to recognize and cut bait sooner rather than later

So… just to unpack here: I’m confscum. And also Porkens is confscum. And also I’m literally the only person in the thread who would see porkens scum buddy flailing and dying and goes “you know how I should react to that? By drawing literally all of the attention to me.”

for the record that was a reaction to what i mistakenly presumed was an accidental selfhammer, which is not the case. this is also before you came into the thread and had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

but again i've laid out alternative scenarios. i think it's possible porkens's partner cut bait on him and is voting him. i'm not gonna fully discuss that right now. i just want you to be the elimination 100% of the time following a porkens red flip, absent anything mechanical clearing you. because your play makes far more sense as being proscum and you shouldn't be given a pass for it.

[petapan]

VOTE: peta, btw

Oh, I'd also hammer this btw.

Especially because they're ignoring my question. But maybe they just didn't see it.

i have no idea what question you're referring to

[petapan]

Jingle not voting any actual real wagon as if this were middle of the day is as anti-town as ending it early

but again

the tinfoil hat mega dance happened, peta

i'm laying out words for when porkens gets yeeted and inevitably flips scum cuz i don't want stuff getting swept under the rug

[petapan]

you are severely out of touch sir

[petapan]

VOTE: peta, btw

Oh, I'd also hammer this btw.

Especially because they're ignoring my question. But maybe they just didn't see it.

i have no idea what question you're referring to

again, point me to the question i'm supposedly ignoring?

[petapan]

man i couldn't even tell that was addressed at me

[petapan]

Jingle position currently, to keep it simple. You had porkens and Jingle at the bottom of your reads list, but later on you said that porkens lack of associatives was going to make this harder, which implies that your read has changed on Jingle or that you don't think a jingle/porkens scum team is a thing.

Fate: I count 3 for Peta, 4 if you include survivalist vote from porkens, 5 for the same from adorable, and a number of undecideds who would probably be equally willing to go to there as porkens.

Holy shit peta fucking read. Lol. What is your position on Jingle/explain that progression above. Thank you.

well i seesawed on jingle throughout the day owing to legitimate uncertainty over his alignment. probably at the time i was thinking more town i just hate everything he's posted this morning at it feels like he's dissembling.

i think it's

possible

that's the team but it's not the only possibility and it would be overconfident to say i know the exact team for certain because i'm rarely that accurate, no one is

but like if porkens is scum jingle should always be in the POE because he has scumsided to a horrendous extent

does that make sense?

[petapan]

I read this and I see you dodging the point (that there is severe cogdis between porkens is confscum and

jingle only makes sense as wking porkens

) by saying it was all because porkens had self hammered, and then doubling down on the cogdis.

if i said this i don't remember it, and i also don't believe it

[petapan]

You heavily implied it with the “any porkens partner would have cut their losses” bit. So why is that a thing for any porkens partner… except Jingle?

because i don't like you

or it's because you positioned yourself terribly and didn't have a good way to turn it around by the time momentum swung that way. if you're teamed with him i think swapping to voting him would look suspicious.

of course, i could be wrong

mafia is a probabalistic game, nothing is definite. speaking from a broad brushstrokes pov if porkens is scum his partner knows he is a lost cause but not everyone moves to bus in that scenario. i just think fate is town and don't want people getting it twisted on day 2.

i want you in the POE after a red flip and you seem

really

rattled by that

[petapan]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

[petapan]

Can anyone give me a summary on what I have missed? I have some catching up to do and I have a meeting in 30 minutes.

nothing important, a bunch of people are yelling at each other

[petapan]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

Again with the “Jingle is being emotional” narrative. Show me literally any post I’ve made, other than voicing frustration with lurking at wgeurts that is even slightly mad today. I’ll give you a hint: there isn’t one.

your push back on me is nothing if not an emotional one lmao

it's okay you don't have to hide it

[petapan]

Peta repeatedly accusing me of being angry while arguing that I’m scum for doing something he asserts in literally the same post scum wouldn’t do.

this is inaccurate

i think scum are

more likely

to do a certain thing but

not always

. the game is shaped by player archetypes. a less controlling player with less thread presence and less experience is far more likely to go with the flow of thread momentum and throw a teammate under the bus. on the other hand a more experienced scum player is more likely to realize losing a partner Day 1 in a 10p is a near death sentence and will try to avoid that for as long as possible.

however, i typed that post out in a matter of seconds believing we were in twilight. if you expect a post rushed out to have perfect logical coherency you are out of your mind

again i am only discussing possible scenarios of what i think is happening

so, again, y u mad tho?

[petapan]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

correct, yes, if you're town i think the town should treat your scumreads as cop clears

[petapan]

Spoiler: All the posts I’d like peta to respond to, conveniently collected in one place!

It doesn’t CC you at all, but acknowledging that would be antithetical to the attempt to shade me, so…

had a crying screaming flailing meltdown at me calling you out

Yeah… not a thing that ever actually happened. At best you could call my back and forth with wgeurts a meltdown, but even that is disgenuine as fuck.

No go ask LLD if this is what scum Jingle does, because if she’s backing you pushing me here I might as well have a cop guilty on you.

You heavily implied it with the “any porkens partner would have cut their losses” bit. So why is that a thing for any porkens partner… except Jingle?

Can anyone give me a summary on what I have missed? I have some catching up to do and I have a meeting in 30 minutes.

nothing important, a bunch of people are yelling at each other

Nothing important here refers to:

Cerbs having content after being gone for a week, including an elaboration of his wgeurts stance.
Fate obvtowning while trying to shop a no go wagon to save porkens.
Peta repeatedly accusing me of being angry while arguing that I’m scum for doing something he asserts in literally the same post scum wouldn’t do.
Me being decidedly not mad.
Porkens being a foregone lim conclusion.

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

Again with the “Jingle is being emotional” narrative. Show me literally any post I’ve made, other than voicing frustration with lurking at wgeurts that is even slightly mad today. I’ll give you a hint: there isn’t one.

your push back on me is nothing if not an emotional one lmao

it's okay you don't have to hide it

It must really sting to not be able to find any post where I’m screaming, yelling, flailing or ranting. It’s okay, peta, I understand.

mad

[petapan]

jingle seething lol

[petapan]

looks like i really rustled jingle's bells

[petapan]

correct yeah i still stand by what i said

i think A is a possiblity for scum, but if not A, then B

not hard to parse but you really want to make this into a bigger deal than it is

[petapan]

Scum are sitting here ignoring the adorable wagon

For posterity

Adorable/One of people who hasn't commented on her since that wagon started

Spoiler:

adorable is my dark horse pick for teammate throwing porkens under the bus

it's possible jingle is just having a case of mad cuz bad

This, btw, is 100% pure unadulterated posturing.

Jingle is still scum with porkens, despite my own reason for them not both being scum. But also, jingle is just a bad player, so if they flip green you shouldn’t put any credence into them scumreading me. But also also, I’m totally not ignoring adorable, she’s a scum option too, despite literally being the person who is demonstrating the behavior Fate is calling out.

correct, yes, if you're town i think the town should treat your scumreads as cop clears

That would certainly make the game much easier for scum peta!

the easier thing as scum is not getting into a pointless mudfight with someone i'd have recognized as a difficult misflip

[petapan]

jingle what alignment is porkens going to flip

[petapan]

jingle what alignment is porkens going to flip

I expect town, though would be happy with a scumflip.

then i have zero credibility to push you tomorrow so why are you so fucking flustered at the suggestion i think you could be scum with porkens

[petapan]

First of all, very clearly not flustered, regardless of your attempts at argument by repetition.

Second of all, I’m trying to convince people you’re scum, because you’re openwolfing.

i'm openwolfing because i posited a hypothetical scenario where i want you eliminted after a scumflip?

[petapan]

Why is Jingle getting voted?

wgeurts is OMGUSing mostly

[petapan]

You’re openwolfing because you’re dodging interaction in favor of repeating that I’m mad ad nauseam when it’s evident that I’m not. If I was mad, I wouldn’t be devoting time to, you know, interacting with and trying to convince people of my pov, rationally. And anyone who is actually interested in analyzing the game can see that easily.

i don't argue with pedants

look, here's the deal, you're clearly playing reactively and don't like the fact that i've been taking potshots and trying to provoke you repeatedly, and so you're voting me. you want to believe that no townie could be such a dick (this is me admitting i'm being a dick) and that me doing so is a scumclaim, but generally speaking i don't win scumgames by being unnecessarily provocative. i just don't find you worth interacting with, your positions are logically incoherent, and trying to argue with you on the road of "nuh uh, prove me wrong" is fucking stupid. you are worried that i am somehow going to get you pushed off a townflip when that makes zero sense.

you're probably not scum, but, like, if you're town i sincerely suggest you play better

[petapan]

Hmm, perhaps I need to reread that post, but I was pretty sure peta outright stated that jingle is bad town if they're not scum as part of the same post where they said jingles scum reads are cop clears. Seems...like a clear connection. Maybe wrong, am mobile and semi-skimming.

no yeah i'm saying jingle is playing the game terribly if he's town

[petapan]

i'm trolling you because you annoy me

[petapan]

i'm not arguing you're bad scum

[petapan]

When I saw wgeurts voting Jingle, they said it's them or Jingle today and I interpreted it as if either Jingle or wgeurts will get flipped. I don't know how that happened and why.

they aren't current on the thread and don't know the vote count i don't think

[petapan]

i'm trolling you because you annoy me

So… I’m not mad flails scum who is flailing and shit and garbage and you were just making that up to get a lim and now you’re avoiding the points I’ve made to troll me because I’m annoying. Which brings us back to: why are you accusing me of being mad flails scum, and why didn’t you answer the question of why your scumread of me cause any hesitation on the porkens lim?

because it's fun to fuck with you and i have very little regard for any argument you're trying to make

because, like, you're trying to epic own me to prove that i'm scum or something

when it's just wrong and i'm town so what's the point

if you are not scum you are deeply tunneled, but i have no desire to convince you that you are wrong because i'm not getting elimmed today and i fully believe we're killing scum that i helped push


i scumread porkens more than i scumread you

[petapan]

like jingle what the fuck are you hoping to accomplish right now, are you such a keyboard warrior that it's important to you to win the argument with me in the mafia game

[petapan]

As best I can tell that’s an appeal to get me to stop pushing my scumread because it’s wrong of me to want to convince the other people in the mafia game that my scumread is scum.

I do in fact enjoy playing mafia, yes.

no it's a suggestion that you appeal to the other players in your game and make your case to them rather than trying to convince me i'm scum you idiot

i'm giving you free advice on how to play better

[petapan]

doesn't look that way to me but ok

[petapan]

FMPOV it's just been a crock of pointless shit.

correct

[petapan]

positioning himself to be able to push me regardless of how today ends

i'm not doing that

[petapan]

those things aren't scummy because i'm town hth

[petapan]

positioning himself to be able to push me regardless of how today ends

i'm not doing that

Peta definitely walked back from it, but that's 100% what this is.

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

Yes, yes, I know. "I typed that thinking porkens had self hammered." Quite frankly, I don't believe that peta is town, so I'm not ascribing the most charitable possible conclusion to peta's actions.

that was entirely on the assumption porkens had selfhammered as scum

get over yourself

[petapan]

yeah so that's a scumclaim

fwiw jingle should never be allowed to endgame because his play this phase has been downright horrific. i pulled the detente with him partly because i thought he might actually be a mason with hpe but his posts after proved to not be the case. i think the weird round of questioning might be pocketing, not sure. regardless if he's not cleared by an investigation don't let him off the hook.

everyone else off wagon i think is town tbqh. generally when scum plays like porkens their partner is going to recognize and cut bait sooner rather than later

don't snip out the context, i think it's pretty clear what i was reacting to in the moment and how it informed my subsequent statements??

[petapan]

if that's what you

thought

i was saying then a lot of your subsequent posting makes more sense

but it's still wrong and predicated on an incorrect reading of what i was saying

[petapan]

What did you think about my read on Jingle on 322

You said Jingle's play makes far more sense as proscum and what would be the scum motivation for him to be against people getting the double vote to then changing his mind and wanting me to have the double vote and speculates about me having the double vote?

i don't think it's impossible to fake that, however, i changed my mind on him being scum again and think he's town but misguided

[petapan]

Particularly, Porkens selfvoted and unvoted less than a minute later. People continued playing the game. Peta then decided it must have been a selfhammer 5 minutes later. Also, the votecount on the previous page and the declaration of E-2 as the previous pagetop didn't prevent the idea of selfhammer, but.

i entered the thread having seen 4 votes on the previous page. cakez doesn't put E-X indicators in his VCs. I mentally forget we're at 10 players, I assume the E- is wrong. I come in, think it was a selfhammer and brief twilight trolling. i think, oh shit, i just buried who outed himself, i better leave a quick legacy post in case i get shot over this. that might seem egotistical but it happens to me a fair amount of the time. i leave an advisory to vote you out because fmpov at that moment in time you have clearly hard scumsided all game and i was worried people would let you get away with it

all that was written under the assumption porkens had outed himself as scum.

again why do you think i would lie about any of this??

[petapan]

As an oog aside, peta, regardless of your alignment I think it's worth saying that if you do find me annoying I'm willing to avoid you in future games, but having this back and forth with you has been a ton of fun for me and I'd much rather play with you again in the future. I AM here because it's a game and I'm having fun more than anything else. If I were to get genuinely upset I'd like to hope I'd replace out and retire again rather than let it fester like I used to. I've been spending far more time than I should playing mafia because I genuinely enjoy this and I hope that you at least somewhat are enjoying yourself.

lmao nah it's all good i treat the fight as, like, part of the game

[petapan]

What did you think about my read on Jingle on 322

You said Jingle's play makes far more sense as proscum and what would be the scum motivation for him to be against people getting the double vote to then changing his mind and wanting me to have the double vote and speculates about me having the double vote?

i don't think it's impossible to fake that, however, i changed my mind on him being scum again and think he's town but misguided

To me that play looked inconsistent to be scum and have been struggling on figuring out why the change of mind if Jingle is scum.

What made you come around to a town Jingle?

because in arguing with him i've come to realize he has a perspective that is very self-centered around him being town and i believe it to be real. he seemed legit worried that i was trying to paint him as a scapegoat.

[petapan]

As an oog aside, peta, regardless of your alignment I think it's worth saying that if you do find me annoying I'm willing to avoid you in future games, but having this back and forth with you has been a ton of fun for me and I'd much rather play with you again in the future. I AM here because it's a game and I'm having fun more than anything else. If I were to get genuinely upset I'd like to hope I'd replace out and retire again rather than let it fester like I used to. I've been spending far more time than I should playing mafia because I genuinely enjoy this and I hope that you at least somewhat are enjoying yourself.

lmao nah it's all good i treat the fight as, like, part of the game

i do think you might be one of those people where we have a philosophically opposed view of the game that means we're never going to be able to work together well as town but we'll see how this game shakes out

[petapan]

lld wants to kill you still but i'm not into it and if porkens flips town i'm fine with letting someone else take the reins

with the caveat of you continuing to call porkens selfvoting a scumclaim definitely cut the impact of the oh, not a hammer post.

cuz ultimately he made 3 nonsense posts and peaced out which is generally not what i expect from town that seesthey're a wagon

[petapan]

VOTE: porkens

[petapan]

fate always town btw

[petapan]

lol

[petapan]

i'm past the point of caring if he flips town, play the game you signed up for

[petapan]

fate
csf
cerb
radical rat

all town

[petapan]

(probly jingle but i like being petty and my team still disagrees with me)

[petapan]

lol i missed this kind of playstyle

[petapan]

VOTE: adorable

[petapan]

I did not like peta's end of day. He said he wouldn't towncore RR and when it was near end of day he puts RR as town and there was no progression on the read there.

because i thought how they were reacting in the moment was towny

[petapan]

but let's build on that idea

why, specifically, is me not having a visible progression on RR bad/scummy?

[petapan]

but let's build on that idea

why, specifically, is me not having a visible progression on RR bad/scummy?

Progressions are very important because if I don't see the progression then it makes it look like scum is faking a read.

why is it necessary to fake a townread on RR in that moment?

[petapan]

toad, vanilla town,

SWING YOUR ARMS
FROM SIDE TO SIDE

Sample VT PM was a Goomba. While it isn't entirely inconceivable there could be two different VT flavors, this very well may be a scumslip

i think pushing it as a slip is less likely to come from scum in that spot

[petapan]

also i'll just say it now that cakez did a funny with the flavors which is why i voted there

[petapan]

the possibility crossed my mind that it was an intentional misdirect on the part of the mod but also porkens wasn't playing the game and killing players like that is +EV

[petapan]

also i'll just say it now that cakez did a funny with the flavors which is why i voted there

I thought I saw you say Porkens is obv scum.

yes i thought he was scum and at that exact moment he claimed a flavor i thought was suspicious

[petapan]

but let's build on that idea

why, specifically, is me not having a visible progression on RR bad/scummy?

Progressions are very important because if I don't see the progression then it makes it look like scum is faking a read.

why is it necessary to fake a townread on RR in that moment?

RR was suspecting you and your switch on the read made it look like you were going to pocket them and get on their good side.

do you think i'd pocket them with an unexplained read with "no progression"?

[petapan]

do you think i'd pocket them with an unexplained read with "no progression"?

Yes

how is that supposed to work, exactly?

"hey RR, i think you're town now. no i will not explain why"

"ah i see and accept this you are towncored my brother"

do you think that's realistic? do you often see scum doing that?

[petapan]

do you think i'd pocket them with an unexplained read with "no progression"?

Yes

how is that supposed to work, exactly?

"hey RR, i think you're town now. no i will not explain why"

"ah i see and accept this you are towncored my brother"

do you think that's realistic? do you often see scum doing that?

I don't remember if I've seen or not. I do remember scum players having bad progression on a read they had from town to scum or scum players picking on a player scum reading them for a post that never happened.

right, i think sometimes scum have bad progressions when they need to eliminate a townie and have to come up with poor excuses for it. i think that's a valid line of thought because opportunism is a decently reliable tell.

the thing is that the opposite (scum shifting a read to town for no particular reason) happens less often in my experience. so what you're throwing at me is a fairly generic argument that doesn't actually provide a fully formed thought as to why my read shifting makes me scum.

[petapan]

Mena thinks that neither me nor cerbs dying points to peta town. I disagree, but that is a thing he wanted shared.

i don't think CSF is the shot i make here but my perspective is very skewed because to my mind i thought CSF was a VT

[petapan]

in case it isn't clear to some since i've only been implying it i'm also a VT

[petapan]

fwiw i concur that we don't really have time to dilly-dally with how the mechanics are set up

the thing is that the opposite (scum shifting a read to town for no particular reason) happens less often in my experience.

I agree in principle, but will also point out that there are potentially a ton of reasons scum might want to suddenly townread a player that wouldn't necessarily be immediately obvious in the main thread. Don't particularly know if that's the case here.

yeah sure i just would say i'm more than capable of faking a logical progression

[petapan]

also, which VT? This is potentially important.

the same flavor as the one we killed day 1

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

[petapan]

UNVOTE:

THATS RIGHT I OWN YOUR VOTE TODAY EH?

yh etc etc

[petapan]

cerb/wgeurts scum together would be a pretty funny team tbh

[petapan]

also, which VT? This is potentially important.

the same flavor as the one we killed day 1

This is a scumclaim. You were JUST talking about how you thought Porkens claim was incredibly suspicious, but Mafia wouldn't have had any way to know Toad VTs were a thing, and you existing confirms they exist, which SHOULD have cleared Porkens for you.

But before that we need the power up sorted, and I want it. Reasons to follow.

no?

1. generally speaking when someone claims your flavor that is suspicious

like do you think the first impulse is going to be to go "NO WAIT I AM ALSO A VT WHO IS TOAD THIS MAN IS TOWN"? that would both be bad gameplay in terms of broadcasting my role but also would likely convince more people to follow the vote

2. scum could easily have been given that information as well. it wouldn't be remotely clearing. i'd

expect

cakez to do that because he's not a bad mod and having a bunch of VTs cross confirming each other via flavor claims would be laughably terrible modding

[petapan]

the possibility crossed my mind that it was an intentional misdirect on the part of the mod but also porkens wasn't playing the game and killing players like that is +EV

This post does not come from someone who is also a Toad.

how about the part where i voted him immediately after the flavor claim

[petapan]

or alternately flavor in the game could be entirely irrelevant to alignment

[petapan]

the possibility crossed my mind that it was an intentional misdirect on the part of the mod but also porkens wasn't playing the game and killing players like that is +EV

This post does not come from someone who is also a Toad.

how about the part where i voted him immediately after the flavor claim

I hadn't gone back to check that yet, but yes that's really bad too

yeah maybe if you're a fucking idiot

[petapan]

have you ever

literally ever played a themed game before?


because i cannot, for the life of me, recall one where even if there was flavor for the VTs, the VTs had the same flavor

thematically it makes

sense

but that was NOT my first reaction to that claim

[petapan]

Your flavor is generic AND a vanilla role, which are usually interchangeable. It makes absolutely no sense to be suspicious if someone matches your vanilla claim unless it's an actual unique character, which neither Toad nor Goomba are.

It also makes no sense to assume scum would be informed about all of the possible flavors that exist, and the thing with Townies cross confirming each other only actually works once, and even then it's contingent on what the distribution actually is.

Maybe if the claim happened D2 instead of D1 an argument could be made for a role and/or flavor cop... but with all of the information we had, Porkens claim should have AT LEAST given you pause, if not 100% cleared him.

no, because the idea that VTs could confirm each other by their flavor

would be horrifically bad game design

i'm done talking to you, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about

[petapan]

Your flavor is generic AND a vanilla role, which are usually interchangeable. It makes absolutely no sense to be suspicious if someone matches your vanilla claim unless it's an actual unique character, which neither Toad nor Goomba are.

It also makes no sense to assume scum would be informed about all of the possible flavors that exist, and the thing with Townies cross confirming each other only actually works once, and even then it's contingent on what the distribution actually is.

Maybe if the claim happened D2 instead of D1 an argument could be made for a role and/or flavor cop... but with all of the information we had, Porkens claim should have AT LEAST given you pause, if not 100% cleared him.

no, because the idea that VTs could confirm each other by their flavor

would be horrifically bad game design

i'm done talking to you, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about

If indeed you are Town, then that "horrifically bad game design" is the world we're living in, so take it up with the mod instead of just immediately resorting to insulting me.

In the more likely world where you're scum though... we don't actually have any evidence suggesting that kind of confirmation is possible yet, so this argument just doesn't matter.

As an amendment, I did forget Jingle's also claimed Toad, so unless you're both scum together (unlikely imo), we are indeed in a world where what you're calling horrifically bad game design is just a fact. Reconcile that however you must.

i'm not treating the claims as self-confirming

i said the mod pulled a prank by having VTs have the same flavor. my default assumption is one character, one role. i tried to outguess the mod and lost, egg is on my face

[petapan]

here's a followup question: if all the VTs in the game have the same flavor (which seems likely?), do you think the mod would make the scumteam unaware of this fact?

[petapan]

here's a followup question: if all the VTs in the game have the same flavor (which seems likely?), do you think the mod would make the scumteam unaware of this fact?

In this particular game, yes.

I do not believe the mod would make the scumteam EXCLUSIVELY aware of this fact. In most games, if there's a generic VT flavor, that's public knowledge. I have never seen a game where ONLY the scumteam knows what the VT flavor is, and especially in this case where the VT flavor contradicts the public example, it would be kinda shitty to inform scum of this, but Town has to either mislim someone or have multiple VTs out themselves to figure it out.

well i'm going to stand up for the mod here and say you read too much into the example flavor. i don't think it's criminally unfair to create a bit of chaos. a bit mean but it punishes making incorrect assumptions

i made a flawed assumption but that's how mafia goes sometimes, i can live with that fact


the fact is when i saw the claim from porkens, there were logically two possibilities:

A. he's scum who didn't have a safe claim and tried to claim the flavor i have and exists as a virtual counter claim to me

B. the claim is a universal generic one, and therefore NAI because scum would likely know this

u think concluding he

had

to be town from the claim would be a reach. just because i don't think like you doesn't make me scum, to believe that is narcissism.

at that moment in time, it seemed like the best possible play was to vote him out and stop discussion of the claim to avoid people needlessly giving away hints about their role

[petapan]

GIF has been doing mech solving. I'll have to paraphrase those later since I am busy with chores.

I’d prefer you wait for wgeurts and fate, tbh

this

explicitly please do not comment on the claims until everyone has spoken up, doing so now is anti-town

[petapan]

vote powerup: HPE

i think there's way too much claimed power here for a 10p game with 2 mafia even if we assume mafia have some kind of ninja strongman craziness

[petapan]

at the risk of being called unoriginal, i largely agree with what jingle has said

fmpov i don't think jingle and wgeurts are ever aligned which means finding scum in the PR claims should take priority

i feel comfortable with treating this like quasi role-madness, and in role madness setups often scum are going to have roles that are NAI which they can trueclaim.

that being said i think adorable's claim is very likely to be real

mechanically i think it's fairly unlikely all of bg/watcher/rolestopper exist in the setup and are town aligned, and of those the one most likely to be fake would be RR

[petapan]

i'm going to withhold judgment on cerb until he actually posts the content he's promising

i dunno game feels like a puzzle still