Large Normal 246: Game Over

[Celebloki]

VOTE: Random Nurse

Hi

[Celebloki]

Elements is a champion baffler for sure.

I'm not inclined to vote for the millers. I think I agree with Gamma's take.

[Celebloki]

I'm not sure. Dunn's claim felt like a joke with it being the first post of the game. Kyouko's feels more real but I'm not familiar enough with her to tell if it's coming from scum

I feel Duun's claim is genuine, millers often claim miller in their opening posts. Duun's miller claim feels straight up, unlikely that mafia plays this directly. Kyouko feels real/potentially opportunistic, shielding herself behind the initial miller claim if she is mafia

VOTE: ssbm_Kyouko

Kyouko claimed miller in her opening post too, it seems unfair to say her claim is illegitimate just because Dunn got to the game first. Not everyone can have the opening post of a game.

[Celebloki]

VT

I understand why people claim miller early on, but why throw out a VT claim on page 1? I'm coming to this site mostly from a background where claiming was against the rules, so I would love to hear how claiming this helps the town.

So scum will not target me and I can last till end game. I believe in myself to find scum as long as I'm alive long enough. Now I just need to be towny enough to not be voted out. I've eliminated half of the work.

You understand why it's generally anti-town to openly claim VT though, right?

[Celebloki]

It seems like some people are being overly-critical, but maybe it's just people eager to get the game out of an RVS mindset.

[Celebloki]

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

[Celebloki]

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

Well now I went and got egg all over my face. I will say I am genuinely excited to actually get to play a game with RN. I definitely was too snarky in that post, but I was just frustrated that it felt like this was another game he was going to replace out of.

[Celebloki]

I've also been in a lot of games that Random Nurse was in a the start, my RVS vote on him is basically because I knew he wasn't going to show.

VOTE: Celebloki

Well now I went and got egg all over my face. I will say I am genuinely excited to actually get to play a game with RN. I definitely was too snarky in that post, but I was just frustrated that it felt like this was another game he was going to replace out of.

Is that what you thought, that Kyo voted for the snark?

I don't see any other reason. It was my opening post with an RVS vote on RN. She was quoting a post of mine being probably a little too mean about assuming that RN flaked this game too. I felt bad when RN actually appeared and started posting and felt I deserved the shade. What do you find scummy about me admitting that I was being unkind in that post?

[Celebloki]

And I guess follow-up question, why do you think Kyouko voted me and quoted 217?

[Celebloki]

UNVOTE:


At this point I can say I heavily town read RN, at least until I develop a different meta for him.

[Celebloki]

And I guess follow-up question, why do you think Kyouko voted me and quoted 217?

You saying you "knew" he was not gonna show looks like a slip tbh.

That's where the snark came in, I've been in several games recently where RN has either not confirmed a role PM and replaced out without even posting, or replaced out after making maybe 2 posts. I was fully expecting this game to be no different. He pleasantly surprised me when the prod got a response. I'll also mention that the little bit of meta I did pick up on him is that he struggles to post as scum, he admitted it himself in a previous game. 2 of those games that are completed he in fact turned out to be scum. His more forward and active posting here already breaks that meta for me.

[Celebloki]

I also don't want to dive much more into shading RN for his recent activity. I fully acknowledge that life can get crazy and it can be hard to find time to play in games. I don't necessarily feel like it should always be something to hang over his head for meta. I do legitimately feel bad for piling on in this game about it.

[Celebloki]

Kinda, Large 245 is probably the only one I can technically say we did.

[Celebloki]

Kinda, Large 245 is probably the only one I can technically say we did.

...were you Scum in that one?

I was not.

[Celebloki]

Who but scum even thinks "I know this guy isnt going to show so I'll vote him in RVS"

If you're doing this as town you can just not vote. This is scum trying to fit in during RVS and now that we're out of it he felt comfortable enough to admit it.

He slipped imo

I always have a reason for a vote, even in RVS. It can sometimes be just because I think their name is silly, because of a previous game with that person, or any other random reason. Are you saying all townies always truly randomly vote in RVS? You had no reason to vote Nono or guillotina at the start?

[Celebloki]

I guess I just don’t ever suspect to get a response from an RVS vote, most people seem to ignore them or make a jokey OMGUS vote.

[Celebloki]

I get more out of who piles on after the RVS vote and if I feel they were made opportunistically. I usually find whatever flimsy reason to vote someone in the list to just make my “Hi, I’m here. Here’s an RVS vote”. Then I usually wait for more people to post and something else to latch onto.

[Celebloki]

I honestly never understand how anyone can get AI vibes from RVS votes. My general philosophy is to largely ignore RVS votes and I mostly skim until I find the page that seems to be moving out of RVS shenanigans. My RVS votes are always knee jerk votes, whatever name in the list sparks something.

This game it was just seeing RN in the player list, I have been in several games 'with' him recently and I decided I wanted to vote him. I quoted 'with' because every completed game I've 'played' with him, he's either not confirmed his role and replaced out without even posting, or posted half a dozen or less times and replaced out. That was the extent of the thought I put into my RVS vote.

[Celebloki]

Do you guys legitimately get scum tells that pan out solely based on an RVS vote? Maybe I need to learn this skill.

[Celebloki]

Sure

[Celebloki]

Also, I would love to stop talking about RN, but apparently the wagon on me revolves around my RVS vote on him and how I keep talking about him. Should I just ignore my wagon so I can stop talking about RN?

[Celebloki]

Cause I would prefer to not keep re-hashing it.

[Celebloki]

Guillo Bam and Aid

What's that?

Very glad you asked.

The Guillo BAM and AID technique is the process in which everyone has to earn my townread every day as opposed to secretly giving you a score high enough to towncore you for the rest of the game based on your performance on a specific day.


Pros: Keeps the game dynamic
Removes the possibility of scum buddying me once to ride on my favor forever.
It catches deepwolves.
Makes me unpredictable and mafia cant plan around it.

Cons: Very difficult to build a towncore this way.
Builds a level of distrust amongst the actual town as it could be seen as scum keeping the PoE wide instead of narrowing it down.

I also like this idea, I find I often town read someone sub-consciously too often on D1 and have had it backfire (been pocketed). Recently, I have found that I've needed to reset and throw out any town reads I had on subsequent days in case I was pocketed. At first I thought you were being a little bit LAMISTy, but for now I am content that you're coming from a town motivation. I might have to borrow and properly credit this strategy as well.


Conversely, this is also why I am now dubious of people that like to make town blocks on D1. Unless they are masons I just don't understand how anyone can fully trust anyone D1. I've been stung too many times that I only ever lean towards town on some people D1.

...

@Gamma listen I really don't care who or what you vote. Not being in a block is not a threat. A block is a group of people who

trust

each other and are willing to cooperate, and then vote together. If there's no trust then there's no block, it's as simple as that.

...

The operative word being trust. Can you really expect to gain actual trust on D1 outside of a Mason type situation? How can anyone reasonably, comfortably join a town block and say they trust the others in the town block? If someone on D1 says they trust others, I'd find that very suspicious.

[Celebloki]

I'm not really interested in applying more pressure to Naerys, I don't see anything different from her play here than it was in 245 or the game BQ2 linked (both of which I was in). Naerys similarly got tunneled in both those games and she complained about being lim bait, so if anything this is normal towny behavior for her.

I think Hu Tao bringing up 245 is funny as an example of a game where she pushed someone hard D1. In 245 she was pushing a mis elim on a townie that was being hard pushed by a Scum FL. So she's saying its normal for her to sheep a bad wagon being pushed by scum D1. Interestingly in this game she is pushing Naerys on her own accord it seems, so it is slightly different than 245. Maybe she's scum pushing her own mis-elim. I am interested in applying pressure to Hu Tao in this case.

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Celebloki]

Is this even a real thought?

Why is no one else allowed to have a similar thought? This is just like people flaming Kyouko for claiming miller after Dunn. I guess if when I have a chance to post my thoughts and someone got to them first I'm not allowed to post them. I get flamed for not posting, then when I have a chance to open the game to contribute I immediately get flamed. I did add my own thoughts from aspects of the games posted, I could have just said "This". I did happen to play both in 245 and Mini theme 2318.

Like I said in a previous post, there are some people in here that are being hyper-critical/nit-picky. I think there's a concerted effort to bully and push others around for scummy reasons.

[Celebloki]

Spoiler:

Question to everyone, is it me or there seems to be resistance to a Naerys vote even though they have contributed a lot less than other slots like Elements or myself who got more votes on, in spite our higher activity. Why is that? What's the story?

I feel like Naerys is actually a pretty popular suspect?

Yes but not many actually trying to vote her out. Seems like just saying it but not doing much

Oh fk off already
You are sitting on me with not really decent reasoning, sniping some clever remarks and doing nothing otherwise
I am pretty tired and annoyed of this “naerys must be scum”
Yeah no i am not and you are starting to piss me off

You feel a lot different from this game where it turned out scum were leading a wagon on you.
Naerys + mod iso, day 3 is relevant

I think I'm the same as town and scum. I try to approach the game the same. Probably better to ask other people.

Wait that game Dave just linked that you were in.. I was town and I pushed hard on someone day 1. Sus.

All naerys said is she's never seen me push on someone day 1. So just saying it's not accurate

I'm referencing this whole exchange. dave brought up 245 and Hu Tao used it to justify that she does push people as town D1. I was just saying I thought it was funny she'd used a game where she was pocketed and sheeping scum to push a mis-elim was a good example of why she's not scum here. Sure it may indicate she's not scum, but it certainly indicates she pushes bad wagons.

[Celebloki]

VOTE: Celebloki

We gave them time to breath and has done little with the time we gave them.

Trying to catch up, the game exploded since my last chance to follow it, but I'm happy this was mentioned. They've done nothing but hide back into the shadows.

As for Hu, I would support a vote in that direction, I don't have any strong townie vibes, but I also think they are playing, working on stances on things and participating which means they aren't my first choice.

Looking at the activity overview, you don't have many more posts than me. Pot calling the kettle black I guess.

[Celebloki]

Looking at the activity overview, you don't have many more posts than me. Pot calling the kettle black I guess.

How long have you played mafia?

Off and on for 15 or so years.

[Celebloki]

I know my join date and post count don't jive with each other. I've taken long hiatuses from mafiascum.

[Celebloki]

No you weren’t. You’re at 7 votes. Your at E-2.

[Celebloki]

Personally I think the "I got hammered" was a gambit to try and dissolve the wagon. PR claim to get a few days leeway. I don't believe any of it.

[Celebloki]

I don't

b

elieve the claim at all. I also don't believe for a second that Hu Tao thought she was actually hammered so the claim itself was no way a twilight-esque spew. It was a calculated gambit.

[Celebloki]

I was waiting for Guillo's opinion on the Hu Tao claim. He's a bold person and if he doesn't think a Hu Tao lim is the play I'll sheep that I guess. I still think Hu Tao is probably scum so the only way she'll go is through limming.

Can I also just say, love it or hate it, having gob in the game really spices things up.

[Celebloki]

@gob, I'm not trying to shade you with that last post. Sometimes you can be frustrating, but I legitimately like being in games with you. You add a lot of fun.

[Celebloki]

Going away from my PC for the night, might get a cheeky phone post in before bed. I still don't think the millers are elim candidates. I think there has to be some beneficial mechanic involving them and taking them out right away would be silly. I'm going to keep pressure on Hu Tao for now and evaluate where else to go in the morning if this isn't to be. This seems to be a game that likes to compile a lot of pages while I'm asleep and I always have to catch up again in the morning.

[Celebloki]

Even though she wants me dead, I still don't think Kyouko's the play today.

This might seem completely out of left field, but I am just pondering scenario's. In a game this size, and considering Hu Tao's claim of Complex Indecisive Doctor, is a second town protective role likely balance-wise or would that be too town sided?

[Celebloki]

If it saves us time since we are approaching Deadline, I can go ahead and claim now before we waste time on a wagon on me.

[Celebloki]

I certainly haven't been playing as a shining paragon of town, so I don't really begrudge those that have been throwing shade at me too much. I have a bit of a OMGUS bias against Timmer, but idk if I find that scummy or just hypocritical.

I see the logic of the Keyleth wagon, but want to read that a bit more. Keyleth is a slot I haven't paid a ton of attention to thus far. I will say that there is another reason I am dubious of Hu Tao's claim, the way she dissolved her wagon, and questions I've posed but I don't want to divulge any further why that is. If she's not to be I'll go ahead and unvote.

UNVOTE: Hu Tao

Most of these people aren't catching current heat, but I am not interested in joining a wagon on Kyouko, Dunn, Guillo, RN, or Naerys. I don't necessarily TR all of these, but I don't think voting them off today is optimal.

[Celebloki]

Key has a very neutral, inoffensive playstyle in this game. I don't know if she's like this in every game, but her postings seem to go to great lengths not to rile anyone up and mostly just be buttering up to other people's posts.

[Celebloki]

Like, reading her ISO, I don't think she really scrutinized anyone, just a string of posts pointing out posts she liked, or generally saying wholesome things to people.

[Celebloki]

Which seems like a weird thing to nit-pick I guess, but you don't make friends scum hunting.

[Celebloki]

I'll be honest, joining the Key wagon feels a lot like kicking a puppy, but I can see this being a great asset to a scum game for her as well.

@Key, do you have any completed scum games?

[Celebloki]

I'm lurking and reading. Deciding if I think Gamma is a vote today. I don't have the time at the moment to really dive anyone until maybe later this afternoon. I've only really formulated a list of people I don't want to vote (which I've listed before). At the moment Gamma isn't on it, but I'm not completely ready to vote her. I honestly have a hard time reading Gamma. Since my return nearly every completed game I've been in has had Gamma in it and I struggle to read her. I'm kind of waiting for a game to see a different side of her, but idk if I see that here yet. Her town/scum differences must be subtle to say the least.

I'm a proponent of not doing no elims, so push comes to shove I can maybe get on the Keyleth vote by deadline, but the only scummy thing you could argue about her play is that she's being too neutral and appeasing. I kind of agree that her play doesn't really benefit town at all, so the lim isn't the end of the world. Her play could be a great disguise for scum though.

[Celebloki]

The theme of this game is rolefishing all the town PRs.

[Celebloki]

So for the setup/mech experts, does it make sense for there to be 2 Doctors aside from maybe a maf doc and a town doc? If there is a Doc claim, how reasonably should there be a CC to that, or at least a feeling of dubiousness to the claim?

I would just like an answer to this from a though experiment standpoint, please don't read any softing into this by me.

[Celebloki]

My inclination is obviously that an actual Doc shouldn't CC and stay hidden. But would you expect them to want to get the original claim out?

[Celebloki]

I've softed something at best, there may be some confusion as to what I am softing though. I'm worried that if scum think I'm softing something in particular I may be dead tonight as a NK target. I almost feel it may be more beneficial for me to full claim and be directed/ get protected and limmed on a later day given the other softs and partial claims we've seen.

[Celebloki]

I could be behind a Kawaiikame wagon. They were one of the slots that I have been alluding to being hyper critical. I felt they were being overly nit-picky earlier in the day. Specifically flaming Kyouko for claiming miller second, then backing down when pointing out that it was rather unfair.

The vote on Keyleth does reek of someone parroting what others are saying whiling joining a wagon that seems to be getting going without actually trying to catch up and join in.

[Celebloki]

Cause we have like 35 claims and wagons on people I don't want to go to. I'll vote Kawaii, I could still go for Hu Tao (Just don't believe any of her claim or how she claimed), Timmer (probably not an option today), Key if its the only one at E-1 at deadline.

[Celebloki]

I'll be here up until deadline.

[Celebloki]

Intent

Should we give it any time or should I just yeet?

[Celebloki]

I'm waiting for last words.

[Celebloki]

I've been lurking as well. I don't imagine we'll get any other flash wagons going and at least at this point we're not yeeting a PR claim if it misses.

VOTE: KawaiiKame

[Celebloki]

@Timmer, I suppose you feasibly could have ignored the after game convo besides your closing posts in Open 888, but the Mod did release all the PTs after the game. Knowledge of such things existing isn't exactly hidden on this site. Daytalk and private threads are concepts that should be pretty well know after even one game.

[Celebloki]

Yeah my read of that sort of activity is a VT slot lol.

[Celebloki]

That was a kind attempt Elements lol.

[Celebloki]

Good morning, Hu Tao lied. She’s vanilla.

VOTE: Hu Tao

[Celebloki]

I’m certainly not going to listen to Hu Tao. I suppose she could have lied to cover any other PR and avoid getting limmed, but I think it’s more likely she’s a goon.

[Celebloki]

I wish everyone was so sure about that, she should have been the elim yesterday in that case instead of multiple speed wagons on other people that pushes more claim shenanigans.

[Celebloki]

My plan originally was to investigate the millers. If I live to and through tonight I plan to do that. I won't go further on what my crumbs meant. They do have a purpose, but it's not beneficial to town to go into them right now.

[Celebloki]

I refuse to explain further because I don't want to potentially out any other PRs. I'll maybe explain on a later day if it makes sense to. Btw, I never said I would explain tomorrow, Broccoli implied I could explain tomorrow, but I didn't agree to that.

[Celebloki]

Yeah and the second I explain what I was doing I'll get flamed for revealing a potential town PR. It's better that I have the heat right now.

The only thing further I'll say is that I am not a protective, but I believe there is one. This is why I didn't believe Hu Tao so strongly yesterday and why I decided to look into it over night. I was asking about the possibility of two because I became concerned that I was misguided in thinking that there couldn't be two.

[Celebloki]

Yeah I might as well claim since it's so implied ay this point. I did soft a PR yesterday when I said:

If it saves us time since we are approaching Deadline, I can go ahead and claim now before we waste time on a wagon on me.

At the time it seemed like I was about to get wagoned and we were getting close to deadline. I didn't want to waste time wagoning me into a claim, then have it dismantle and turn into a panic situation before deadline.

I'm a Town Role Cop. My original plans were to investigate Dunn or Kyouko and confirm their miller status. After Hu Tao's claim, I debated real hard over night on whether I should still check one of the millers or her. I ended up going with Hu Tao and got "Vanilla" back. Someone else dropped crumbs that apparently only I saw that makes me think there are other protectives.

[Celebloki]

I am claiming role cop, not any other kind of cop. It returns whatever the slots role is, but I don't get alignment. If the slot is VT, Goon, whatever, I'm supposed to get something to indicate it's a generic role so I don't get alignment. For Hu Tao I got Vanilla. This could mean VT, Goon, SK, whatever the basic role for a faction is.

I was excited when the game started and we had 2 Miller claims, because if I check one and get Miller, that's pretty set what it means.

[Celebloki]

Yeah well not my best play i admit. I am bouncing between you and Cele bcz idk whom to trust. Nurse i believe town and i am inclined to listen to him. This whole situation is a mess. Yeah plus the fact that i kinda fell for your trap with "Cele softed protective". Either you are trying to discredit Cele or Cele is lying and is scum PR. But lol, why would scum PR oust themselves like this? With still so many people alive? More than likely scum is hiding in lurkers.
You lied, Hu Tao. Thats a fact. To get best info from this situation without mislimming potential important PR is to lim you. Or, pushing a lurkers.
It would be neat if some lurkers bothered to come here, tbh. I hate this mess and my thoughts are messed up.

Cele and I agree. So why are you making it Cele vs me?

What are we agreeing on? That you're vanilla? I don't think I agreed with you on anything. I'm calling out your claim and you agreed that I caught you?

[Celebloki]

I fought with myself nearly up to the deadline about that. I was pretty certain Hu Tao was lying and I was thinking there might even be a great chance she was a scum PR and was going to hide behind a town PR. I was hoping I'd get back something like Roleblocker that would be more clear cut. I was pretty sure I wasn't going to get back doctor. I was happy to at least get back Vanilla and know she lied about the claim.

[Celebloki]

I don't understand this logic

If you faking a cop-type role, the easiest path to establishing credibility is to "investigate" players that we all already kinda know. So Celeb is saying they want to investigate the millers, well there's 2 of them, so to me, that's basically saying "i'll just show back up on day 3 and say yup that player is a miller" and then on day 4 "yup, that other player is a miller".

I don't like it as if someone asked me before this game day started "what would you do if you were going to try to establish a fake cop claim, I'd say point blank "say i'll check the millers" It's just utterly convenient.

Yeah but if I do that, and me and the millers are still alive, elim me and confirm the millers. I don't suspect I'll make it through too many more nights though.

[Celebloki]

Idk, I may have confirmed it. I mean at that point she already claimed so I don't know what good it would be for me to stay quiet about it. If she's a town Doc it would have sorted itself out from a NK. If Scum Doc it's probably better everyone knows she's some kind of Doctor and how suspicious it would get if she continued to remain alive after each night.

[Celebloki]

I suppose the only reason I may have stayed quiet about it is to not fully claim myself and stay somewhat hiddem. Yesterday I only softed being a PR, I didn't say what I was. I'm sure a big topic today would be what all my crap was about end of day yesterday and I probably would have become today's elim if I did stay quiet. At the very least I would get wagoned and be made to full claim today anyway.

[Celebloki]

I did paraphrase the wiki, because in my experience a lot of people don’t go read the wiki and assume. People in this game in particular seem to not understand roles since multiple people were confused about what happened to Black and Gamma. Dunn also kept saying I claimed Vanilla Cop which I didn’t so I felt I needed to be clear about it.

[Celebloki]

Hmm

UNVOTE:

A lot of sense is being made regarding Hu. I'm not ready to give her a clear the rest of the game, but I can agree that she's not a good lim today. At the very least we know she's not a scum PR and so effort is probably best going elsewhere.

[Celebloki]

What's the case on Elements?

[Celebloki]

I'm trying to reconcile Kyouko's shade on me. Maybe she really has a grudge for my 'safe' RVS vote. Maybe this is one of my patented crackpot theories, but why do I get the feeling that Kyouko and maybe Timmer are trying to push a narrative that I shouldn't be using my role to confirm millers because she really doesn't want me to target her. I feel like I'm being setup to either get mislimmed before I can try, or they are trying to convince me I should use my role elsewhere. Confirming millers imo is a good use of the role. There's not much grey area getting a Miller result on what their alignment is.

[Celebloki]

FWIW, I call it crackpot, because I do generally TR Kyouko's play here, plus it's hard to see her and Gamma as partnered unless they were doing some real distancing theater EoD yesterday. But I do love my conspiracies.

[Celebloki]

@Mod: Will be V/LA Dec 15th through Dec 17th

I should still be keeping up, but will likely only be posting light phone posts. I should be here/paying attention up to deadline, but I will be away from home this weekend.

[Celebloki]

Celebloki is this the slot you saw protective softs from?

No

[Celebloki]

Welp, I don’t have to beat around the bush about that anymore.

Was Roden hammered?

[Celebloki]

Yeah, looks like Naerys was the hammer.