Mini Normal 2324: Fake Fantasy Facts | Postgame

[DeltaWave]

"Mafia is multitasking by default."

What does this mean?

Also hi

[DeltaWave]

Hi.

I like your entrance the best.

You are town.

Thank you. I will blindly trust this and say you're town too!

VOTE: Hu Tao

kinda wanna say this comes from scum? Like, there's a bit of a "oh god i gotta appear towny" in those words imho
"blindly" also sounds hyperaware of the lack of info a townie would normally have

Hu Tao's post sounds like the kind of thing a townie would say tbf

[DeltaWave]

Looking through everyone else now, I kinda feel like I recognize Delta, did we ever play back in the day?

And I forgot they were even in this game, two whole posts not really adding anything. Hopefully they get this notification and post more

That's a possibility. I don't remember a lot of the early games I played so I can't say.

Today was very busy at work. Tomorrow will also likely be pretty busy so it may be until Friday night for me to catch up on everything. I have some town reads and some scum reads but I want to catch up on everything before I share.

[DeltaWave]

fuck, missed on RVS

I'll just pretend nothing of note happened and VOTE: Upwards

fuck, missed on RVS

I'll just pretend nothing of note happened and VOTE: Upwards

How about you don't pretend it's still RVS and come play the game with us my friend

pretending it's still RVS is more fun though and even the mod's using an avatar that takes me back to 2017 (I think) shitposting

to be fair, I read the game again and jumped at nothing

at most I think FD looks towny enough

Whole lotta null here, if anything would like to hear why I am 'towny enough'

I'm still not caught up yet and I'm fairly burnt out from work today but if I'm reading that last post by lucca correctly I don't think it's null. I don't really like going from "here's my RVS vote!" to "ohhh to be fair I was too hasty now that I read the game." It's an RVS vote, it doesn't have to make sense. Why backpedal on it so quickly.

[DeltaWave]

It sounds to me like lucca got some backlash from gypyx for what was legitimately an odd post #71 and then immediately backpedaled it. If it's really an RVS vote then who cares. That's what the R means. Then lucca pegged you as town in #78. You get more friends by calling people town, especially early on. If you put this sequence of events together, the problem is evident.

[DeltaWave]

That's part of the reason why I don't like it when people try to form early town blocks. Psychologically, if you're town and someone else calls you town, you are more likely to also see that person as town. They aren't being threatening toward you and you often assume that they must be town as well, otherwise they'd be trying to ME you. But scum do have plenty of reasons to buddy up and in fact, it's a key tactic in the day. That's not to say that everyone who does this is scum, but it's a concern when buddying is the only thing someone really *has* done.

Anyway I'll be hitting this thread up again tomorrow, when it's not almost midnight and I'm fried

Edit: You replied after I wrote this post but before I hit submit. Lucca's most likely going to be in my scum pool but there's many pages for me to catch up on.

[DeltaWave]

So here are my initial thoughts after reading ISOs.

Gypxy

- I don't have any strong feelings. Nothing really jumped out at me. I'd say probably leaning toward town for now but I don't see a lot of scum motivation here.

FuDunz

- I look at the ISO and I see solid D1 play. Overall town leaning. Reasonable.

GammaEmerald

- She's in my scum pool. I really did not like the town block formation attempt on post #44. Her most recent vote change from Margot to Clap seems thin. The clap vote seems to be motivated by the fact that clap threw some shade on her. GE sheeped onto the Margot wagon and then hopped off when others hopped off. Talking about her own town/scum meta as if that will convince anyone seems self-preservationist and kind of manipulative. When you add all this up, it looks like someone who is more interested in influencing others around her instead of scumhunting. It's not very townie behavior.

Claptastic

- Clap has been making some good points so I'm likely to say null or town lean. Clap seemed to have some of the same problems that I have with GE.

Hu Tao

- I really think that first post had some townie banter/enthusiasm but I also don't like the stated intention to quickhammer. Ending the day early does not benefit town, especially on day one, and especially when the game was only like... what, 24-48 hours old at that point? So why are we talking about quickhammering anybody? We're also in a position where at least four players haven't contributed anything at all of substance, and ending the day before they can provide information isn't in the town's interest at all. That being said, I'm willing to hear Hu Tao out on the quickhammer comment. I was putting Hu in the neutral pool but as I was typing this post I started to dislike the quickhammer thing more and more. Especially when I realized how little information we have from some people.

Alianna

- I didn't see anything very substantive about reads. I'd like to hear more about why Alianna has the reads they do. Null for now.

Lucca

- I already explained why lucca is in my scumpool and the ISO didn't really change that. In fact, I find it concerning that Lucca is potentially misrepping Upwards in Post 176. "Not to play armchair psychologist, but I think a guy who read a 100-person game on this website (and probably read several wallposts on the way) would feel a little more paranoid on his first post." Upwards didn't say that he read a 100 person game, just that he heard about it. So it's a bit unfair to assume (possibly wrongly) that he actually read it. It seemed like a really thin excuse to go after someone who (if town) is a good ME target. This is the strongest scumread that Lucca has had thus far, and he walked it back later. There are so many more interesting things to talk about in this game other than some mafia game that inspired Upwards to join. It's just odd.

Laplacian

- Not a lot to go on here but he did say he was busy with RL stuff. I am mystified that he expected me to respond to his RVS vote when the only reasoning is that he didn't like neuroscience. Therefore, my response is "you have my condolences." I'd like to see more from lap before I put him into a pool.

Upwards

- I mean no offense when I say that upwards is clearly a new player. I'd like to hear more reasoning and less talking about how they're new. So, null for now.

Zebedee

- Same as above. I'm cognizant that they're traveling for work. Null like Upwards.

Margot

- Low post count + reads based purely on vibes gives me little to work with. Going into the null pool with Lap, Upwards, and Zebedee.

Naerys

- Even less content than Margot. Again, null.

Basically for scum I'm looking at Lucca or GE right now. Obviously there are a bunch of people who haven't really contributed much and so there's definitely going to be some scum in there.

VOTE: Lucca

[DeltaWave]

omgus is not a scumhunting methodology

[DeltaWave]

Okay here we go.

I find Gamma suspicious for the townblock on day 1 when that’s a time where there’s really little basis for such a thing.

On the flipside I like Claptastic, Deltawave and Laplacian for calling it out.

I’m really mixed on Gypyx. She’s very active which is probably a good sign, but then again I don’t like my exchange with her. In #92 she feels the need to state that I shouldn’t blindly trust her, which is obvious enough that it irritated even me as a beginner. What follows is this strange discussion only to end it somewhat condescendingly in #206. Not a fan.

this is surface level analysis
Regardless of my alignment I think calling my townblock out is an easy thing to do as scum. This seems less like a real thought process and more like reflexively giving townpoints to player who’ve criticized me.

"Calling me scummy for the scummy thing I did is an easy thing to do" Yes there is a reason as to why that's so easy

EBWOP Clap stole my zinger

[DeltaWave]

We have a whole week left for the day. Going into night when we have like, four or five people who haven't really contributed is not pro-town.

[DeltaWave]

We have a whole week left for the day. Going into night when we have like, four or five people who haven't really contributed is not pro-town.

This looks like a post that scum does to contribute to the conversation without actually saying anything.

VOTE: Delta

There is so much bad reasoning behind this post that I don't even know where to start. Is it because I just made a post outlining my reads on everybody, thus making it impossible to say I'm not contributing? Is it because Hu Tao themselves have made multiple no-content posts so this is a pretty hypocritical thing to say? Is it because I actually did have a point by saying I didn't want D1 to end within the first couple of days? (Town benefits from day, scum benefits from night, it's a fact - and we have basically no information from multiple players, one of which is being replaced.) Is it because Hu Tao did nothing to rebut my arguments except for finding the thinnest of reasons to vote for me? Is it because it's plainly OMGUS? If you said "all of the above", you'd be right!

Hu is really near the top of my sussy impostor list.

[DeltaWave]

@264

In regards to the Delta catch-up (not quoting because it's is a big post and you know it would be kinda hard on the eyes):

Not in love with it. Delta back to null. My issue is the easy content. It's all good technical play, but... a little bland?

I consider it a badge of honor that the best defense you can muster to this is that it's a "little bland."

Her scumreads are Gamma because of the Townblock, Hu Tao for the quickhammer comment and me for supposedly misrepping Upwards.

All fine. But to quote Delta herself: "There are so many more interesting things to talk about in this game."

Seems exactly what an experienced scum player would post on a catch-up to appear towny. Good technical play, scumreading stuff that is kinda anti-town sometimes, stuff that's easy to agree.

This is maybe the first time I've ever seen someone say that scumreading anti-town activity is scummy. I guess I should be reading pro-town activity as scummy instead!

One thing I like is the small mistake (that Upwards corrected on @2..) about my exchange with Up. Feel like Scum!Delta wouldn't make a easily correctable argument.

What is this about? I don't understand.

[DeltaWave]

You actually have a point insofar as I missed Post 299. As to the other thing, my point wasn't that you retracted it but that you walked away from it somewhat.

I'm going to do some re-reading in case I missed anything else. I might re-evaluate.

[DeltaWave]

You actually have a point insofar as I missed Post 299. As to the other thing, my point wasn't that you retracted it but that you walked away from it somewhat.

I'm going to do some re-reading in case I missed anything else. I might re-evaluate.

It's not just missing 299. He said he read the whole thing in his initial post. 299 was just confirmation of that.

You seem to be just skimming for talking points rather than actually reading for content.

Well it's clear that I missed some things when I was reading ISOs so I need to go back and read it again. I'm not above admitting when I made a mistake.

As for Hu: I don't really care what other people read you as, I am going to make my own decisions.

UNVOTE: Lucca for now

[DeltaWave]

We have a whole week left for the day. Going into night when we have like, four or five people who haven't really contributed is not pro-town.

Where did this even come from?

The post above was Zebedee talking about the same topic.

[DeltaWave]

The post above was Zebedee talking about the same topic.

Yabut Zeb is a newb and it's understandable he incorrectly thought it was E-1. Why didn't you see the mistake and correct him? Again, you don't seem to be actually reading the thread.

I'm not sure what you're doing here. It sounds like you're trying to come up with a case even though there's no basis to it. Let's recap:

Post 329:

You

, as in you

Claptastik

, asked Hu Tao if his E-1 quickhammer promise was serious.

Post 330: Zebedee says that he's been busy and will post today.

Post 331: A couple minutes later, Zebedee says "E-1, that's like gonna lim soon? Why so quick? Anyway have to shoot the roundabout needs fixing and Gertrude needs her hay."

I thought Zebedee was referring to the post that

you made right before he did.

My reply in 332 was basically saying "yes, talking about going to E-1 when we're only a couple RL days into D1 is too quick."

The fact that you prompted this line of conversation and then came out with "ohh where did THAT come from Delta????" it came from YOU. You don't get to start a line of conversation and then act surprised when I get involved in it.

FYI, I've been busy with work this past week (and I'm actually working today) and so yeah, I missed the Upwards thing. So what.

[DeltaWave]

OK, I misunderstood the reference.

That's fine. Overall my town read on you still stands because of everything else. But this goes to show that sometimes you can just misread a thread- which is how this whole line of conversation started, with my mistake on Lucca's post.

VOTE: Gamma, but I would unvote if Gamma got to E-1. I still want to get more information out of Alianna's replacement and to get some more activity in general going from people who are lower in the post counts. I'd also like Zeb to explain his vote, which seemed to come out of nowhere, and which made me think some things that I'll share after he explains.

[DeltaWave]

OK, I misunderstood the reference.

That's fine. Overall my town read on you still stands because of everything else. But this goes to show that sometimes you can just misread a thread- which is how this whole line of conversation started, with my mistake on Lucca's post.

VOTE: Gamma,

but I would unvote if Gamma got to E-1

. I still want to get more information out of Alianna's replacement and to get some more activity in general going from people who are lower in the post counts. I'd also like Zeb to explain his vote, which seemed to come out of nowhere, and which made me think some things that I'll share after he explains.

Let's vote out delta please

How often do I get mentioned in the mafia PT?

[DeltaWave]

OK, I misunderstood the reference.

That's fine. Overall my town read on you still stands because of everything else. But this goes to show that sometimes you can just misread a thread- which is how this whole line of conversation started, with my mistake on Lucca's post.

VOTE: Gamma,

but I would unvote if Gamma got to E-1

. I still want to get more information out of Alianna's replacement and to get some more activity in general going from people who are lower in the post counts. I'd also like Zeb to explain his vote, which seemed to come out of nowhere, and which made me think some things that I'll share after he explains.

Let's vote out delta please

How often do I get mentioned in the mafia PT?

You tell me

I'm interested to know what's your read on me and why.

[DeltaWave]

Gamma are you willing to vote delta?

Are you willing to explain your vote?

[DeltaWave]

It's kind of interesting that the two votes on me are from Zebedee (who didn't explain his vote) and Hu Tao (who had a really thin one-line comment about how my shade about their E-1 quickhammer comment was not contributing - this is their only reasoning for their scumread on me given in the entire game.) I don't know if two votes are really considered a "wagon" but it's conspicuous that this is the least-reasoned wagon outside of the RVS stage. It's a good thing to take note of for connections later.

[DeltaWave]

Upwards - towny
Naerys - towny
Claptastik - towny
lucca261 -??
FuDuzn - town
Gamma Emerald - leaning sus
Laplacian - towny
Zebedee - ???
Gypyx - Leaning slightly towny
MargotRosa - scummy
DeltaWave - scummy
Alianna - ????

This is where I am right now. I usually don't have this many reads to start so something could be wrong.

Why is Gamma "leaning sus?"

[DeltaWave]

Upwards - towny
Naerys - towny
Claptastik - towny
lucca261 -??
FuDuzn - town
Gamma Emerald - leaning sus
Laplacian - towny
Zebedee - ???
Gypyx - Leaning slightly towny
MargotRosa - scummy
DeltaWave - scummy
Alianna - ????

This is where I am right now. I usually don't have this many reads to start so something could be wrong.

Why is Gamma "leaning sus?"

I explained but because she tried to join and make a town block with me

Why particularly do you find that sus

[DeltaWave]

Upwards - towny
Naerys - towny
Claptastik - towny
lucca261 -??
FuDuzn - town
Gamma Emerald - leaning sus
Laplacian - towny
Zebedee - ???
Gypyx - Leaning slightly towny
MargotRosa - scummy
DeltaWave - scummy
Alianna - ????

This is where I am right now. I usually don't have this many reads to start so something could be wrong.

Why is Gamma "leaning sus?"

I explained but because she tried to join and make a town block with me

Why particularly do you find that sus

Why wouldn't joining an existing town core when not asked sus?

Where I'm going with this is that you apparently scumread me because you thought that a post of mine was just filler or something like that. (It wasn't filler, but that's beside the point for right now.)

For now, let's also put aside the fact that there are many filler posts in this game, including zero-content post like "page top" posts.

How is Gamma's town block shenanigans

less

scummy than a post that you thought was just filler? Your logic isn't logicing.

[DeltaWave]

No. Lap is town 100%

Now I know you’re capping. There is zero reason you should be townreading that ISO

So am I scum then if I'm lying?

Is this the kind of thing where you know Lap is town, Lap gets eliminated, and then you try to gain townpoints as a result?

[DeltaWave]

Getting nuked day 1 as a newbie sucks and it's a good way to have people not stick around and play more. If you're above that, cool, more power to you, but I generally make it a policy to not vote them day 1 without egregious circumstances.

Newbies have the same chance of being scum as everyone else. Unless the town no-elims, which is really rare on D1, someone has to go. There's no particular reason why newbies should have any additional protection. Just try to have fun with it.

[DeltaWave]

From what I can tell, Lap's big sin is that he gave a low-effort read list and then OMGUS'ed Lucca. Is that the case against him?

[DeltaWave]

Getting nuked day 1 as a newbie sucks and it's a good way to have people not stick around and play more. If you're above that, cool, more power to you, but I generally make it a policy to not vote them day 1 without egregious circumstances.

Newbies have the same chance of being scum as everyone else. Unless the town no-elims, which is really rare on D1, someone has to go. There's no particular reason why newbies should have any additional protection. Just try to have fun with it.

The also have the same chance of being town as everyone else. I'll crunch numbers later, but I'm pretty sure ignoring a newbie for day 1 votes cancels out the odds

Realistically nobody is going to do that. A scummy newbie could use that argument for their own benefit. People are going to scumhunt regardless of how long you've been playing.

That being said, the circumstances around this wagon plus what I pointed out in 617 is leaning me toward Lap!Neutral or Lap!Town.

[DeltaWave]

So apparently any time I try to do anything I’m the devil. GOT IT.

If you aren't scum then why are you scummy

[DeltaWave]

You gonna try forming another townblock any time soon?

[DeltaWave]

From what I can tell, Lap's big sin is that he gave a low-effort read list and then OMGUS'ed Lucca. Is that the case against him?

My big issue is he promised good content and gave 3 mediocre posts in the promised hour (this timeframe us metaphorical)

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're voting for Lap because you think he's scum, not as a pressure vote. The reasoning you gave sounds like it would be for a pressure vote.

[DeltaWave]

From what I can tell, Lap's big sin is that he gave a low-effort read list and then OMGUS'ed Lucca. Is that the case against him?

My big issue is he promised good content and gave 3 mediocre posts in the promised hour (this timeframe us metaphorical)

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you're voting for Lap because you think he's scum, not as a pressure vote. The reasoning you gave sounds like it would be for a pressure vote.

Well it’s not. Lap had his shot and blew it.

UNVOTE:
idk maybe Lap is so fucking out there that he’s town

A story in 2 acts

[DeltaWave]

GE, it really feels like you hop around where the winds take you. You went from affirming your vote as a vote for scum and then unvoting 3 minutes later.

[DeltaWave]

No. Lap is town 100%

Now I know you’re capping. There is zero reason you should be townreading that ISO

So am I scum then if I'm lying?

Is this the kind of thing where you know Lap is town, Lap gets eliminated, and then you try to gain townpoints as a result?

The posturing of this post is sus. But he only has 3 votes, why would this be the first thing you think of?

"Am I scum if I'm lying" sounds like you're confidently asserting town status based on an anticipated flip. The inverse of "I'm scum if I'm lying" is "I'm town if I'm telling the truth."

[DeltaWave]

You mean lying about your read on Lap?

[DeltaWave]

Alright fair enough. I guess it your reply can be read two different ways.

[DeltaWave]

I think Gamma is at E-2 but I haven't counted

[DeltaWave]

Yep, Lap's vote put GE at E-1.

I have not forgotten that two days ago, Zebedee voted for me without explanation and has not followed up on that in any way.

[DeltaWave]

You can still save GE Delta. Pls

GE is my biggest scumread right now so I'm not sure why I would do that.

[DeltaWave]

I want to see a commuter fakeclaim. I don't think I've seen one of those before.

[DeltaWave]

You can still save GE Delta. Pls

GE is my biggest scumread right now so I'm not sure why I would do that.

I don't understand this at all.

264 says scum read is bc of the town block, which is played out and soundly discounted as legitimate basis for a scum read at this point surely. 332 suggests you don't want early elim, yet here we are.

Also, holding you to your word 455. Unvote at e-1.....

In case you haven't noticed, those were hundreds of posts ago. I'm not going to dissipate the pressure by backing off. The only person who expressed an intention to quickhammer is Hu, and Hu changed their mind. Why do you want to defend GE so badly?

[DeltaWave]

Because, as I have pointed out repeatedly, and I think should be pretty cl;ear to any reasonable player in this game, this is a rushed, flimsy and weak wagon that appears way more opportunistic than GE appears scummy.

If the wagon looks significantly worse than the player being chased by it, and I've town read Gamma for pages now, I'd say it's very fair to say that the wagon is shit, and anyone pushing it towards e-0 looks worse

The main problem here is that you are completely and totally wrong.

[DeltaWave]

Because, as I have pointed out repeatedly, and I think should be pretty cl;ear to any reasonable player in this game, this is a rushed, flimsy and weak wagon that appears way more opportunistic than GE appears scummy.

If the wagon looks significantly worse than the player being chased by it, and I've town read Gamma for pages now, I'd say it's very fair to say that the wagon is shit, and anyone pushing it towards e-0 looks worse

The main problem here is that you are completely and totally wrong.

I guess we'll all get to find out won't we

Yes. we will find out that you are completely and totally wrong.

[DeltaWave]

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I'm having more town reads than scumreads at this point

Um yeah that’s normal, there’s more town than scum, at least there should be in a well-balanced game

The dynamics of 2 of you feel different.Are you town?

Didn't you say I was town already? And gamma is one of my favorites to play with.

This is the funniest post I've ever seen in a mafia game

[DeltaWave]

If you're town, how did the self vote play to win condition?

Means it had control over when hammer happened, so she could give honest and open reads before the day ended I'd guess

I am annoyed by the self-hammer because I wanted Alinna's replacement to participate before the day was over. The only person who expressed an intention to quickhammer was Hu and he backed off that. I didn't expect GE to do it herself.

[DeltaWave]

If you're town, how did the self vote play to win condition?

Means it had control over when hammer happened, so she could give honest and open reads before the day ended I'd guess

I am annoyed by the self-hammer because I wanted Alinna's replacement to participate before the day was over. The only person who expressed an intention to quickhammer was Hu and he backed off that. I didn't expect GE to do it herself.

If you wanted this, why didn't you unvote?

I typed this out in all caps, then thought better of it. But just so you know, it can and should be read as if it was in all caps.

Did YOU expect GE to self-hammer? Oh come on.

[DeltaWave]

I think you should have expected someone to hammer

[DeltaWave]

My initial take is that Margot was defending GE so hard b/c when GE flipped, she could say "ooo look how townie I am, I was trying to prevent a miselim." Anyway I'm going to read the thread when I'm done with work.

[DeltaWave]

the issue is that I need to re-read but with the flip I think I have a bigger scumread than Lap

Lap is town.

Accurate

[DeltaWave]

It is notable that this post is more likely to be written from memory because it is not organized in any particular way except that the slots with the least detail are last because DW could not remember them. For example this is not ordered from town to scum with explanations added in after the sorting is done. This is not copy and pasted from the playerlist order.

I haven't finished reading the whole post yet - I don't really like that the Gamma read subtly downplays the Margot wagon, but I am absolutely CONFIRMATION BIASED and FOCUSED on anything pertaining to Margot as I'm reading.

I opened up the Activity Overview and sorted by post count, starting with the highest post count. Then I went through each ISO individually and wrote my summary of each one. It's not sorted by town -> scum or any other means

[DeltaWave]

I didn't like Delta's readlist in 264, and 370 didn't feel like the town variety of defensiveness.

Oh sure. Is it because I shaded your predecessor before the day was over? In case anyone forgot, Zebedee sat out the whole Gamma/Margot competing wagons by parking his vote on me with zero explanation given and after only mentioning me a grand total of twice in the entire game at that point. (Once to say that I didn't produce content until I was "shoved", which isn't true, and then to make claim that Clap was scum with me for some reason.)

Or in other words,

it sounds like Zebedee was trying to find a reason to sit on the sidelines of the whole controversy. Didn't want to be on the Gamma wagon and didn't want to bus Margot at the same time.

Still need to fully catch up because I'm between meetings but this seems pretty good for now. Definitely not voting Clap/Macho Man today. I thought Hu was scum at first but I'm warming up to Hu!Town.

VOTE: Prince of Patterson

[DeltaWave]

It's conspicuous that Zebedee had quite a bit to criticize about Margot but didn't vote for her. Instead he voted for a go-nowhere wagon and didn't provide a reason.

[DeltaWave]

I voted for PoP but it didn't make it into the VC.

Whoops! Fixed

[DeltaWave]

I don't really understand the Lap case but I'm also not fully caught up on all of the posts today. I'm probably going to read through everything tomorrow unless I get a sudden burst of energy.

[DeltaWave]

Lap is town. Who else do you think is scum?

One of DW, Enchant, PoP, Upwards. Why is Lap town?

I still haven't read everything posted today but I did a quick ISO of Lap and my town read mostly came from D1 events, when I thought GE was scum. I don't really like @791 or @796 or @797. Hulkamania is running wild on my certainty so I'm going to think about this and post after I sleep

[DeltaWave]

Mucho Man, do you think PoP is tiny mafia or ripped strong town?

[DeltaWave]

I didn't like Delta's readlist in 264, and 370 didn't feel like the town variety of defensiveness.

Oh sure. Is it because I shaded your predecessor before the day was over? In case anyone forgot, Zebedee sat out the whole Gamma/Margot competing wagons by parking his vote on me with zero explanation given and after only mentioning me a grand total of twice in the entire game at that point. (Once to say that I didn't produce content until I was "shoved", which isn't true, and then to make claim that Clap was scum with me for some reason.)

Or in other words,

it sounds like Zebedee was trying to find a reason to sit on the sidelines of the whole controversy. Didn't want to be on the Gamma wagon and didn't want to bus Margot at the same time.

Still need to fully catch up because I'm between meetings but this seems pretty good for now. Definitely not voting Clap/Macho Man today. I thought Hu was scum at first but I'm warming up to Hu!Town.

VOTE: Prince of Patterson

I would disagree about Zeb trying to sit on the sidelines. He voted Gamma, putting him at E-1 (if I'm correct), only unvoting after a lengthy discussion with her.

Don't really see scum!Zeb, on his first game, engaging on a one-on-one with 70k posts town!Gamma, while putting him on E-1, only to unvote her at the end, given that Zeb's slot was pretty much universally townread at the time. A much easier thing to do would be to vote Gamma because of the whole townblock, lurk for the rest of D1 and call it a day.

When I get done reaching Mucho Man's 100,000 posts I'll go back and re-read D1 with this in mind. I will say that in my first ever mafia game in 2011 or whatever (another website) I rolled scum and was ultra-hyper-aggressive the entire time - so it can happen for a first timer.

[DeltaWave]

I also feel a little better about Delta, something about her most recent posts come off as uninformed.

WHAT?

[DeltaWave]

I think we should find the scum that was on gamma. So I think we vote delta or upward

Upward is high up on my scum list so I'm down for that. Probably shouldn't vote delta though.

[DeltaWave]

I think we should find the scum that was on gamma. So I think we vote delta or upward

Was going to vote enchant after my list, but equally fine with this
VOTE: DeltaWave

I'm not sure there could be any more obvious way to try to divert attention off yourself given the heat you've been getting today.

[DeltaWave]

It's just a lame vote is all

[DeltaWave]

Deltawave

- Some strange knowledge / phrasing gaps for having 3k posts (55, 968, and especially 619). 264 is a really bad list, misreading both me and Lucca (with a vote based on said misread!) implies that they're trying to manufacture reasons instead of find them. Pushes to prolong the day when Margot is the lead vote candidate (332), giving time for the wagon to switch to GE.

This annoys me so much because I think you're town but you're making an absolutely ridiculous argument here. I'm not sure what you mean by "knowledge / phrasing gaps" but relying on my post count is ridiculous. Most of my posts are probably in non-mafia discussions. This is my 2nd mafia game in about 7 years I think. Go count up how many games I've done, it's probably less than 15. I'm not even sure what you're trying to say with this.

I misinterpreted a post Lucca made and then I owned up to it immediately. I misread something, big deal.

Finally, I'm never going to advocate for a D1 to end that early. Hu expressed that he would quickhammer about 2 days into the game and I'm not going to support that no matter who was the target. Ending day 1 when we had like, 4 people who didn't contribute anything of substance at all is BAD. Why don't you shade anyone who jumped off the Margot wagon then? After all they must have known what the flip would be right? COME ON

[DeltaWave]

Also, by your logic, does my presence on the "Laplacian defense squad" make YOU scum?

[DeltaWave]

I'm down for an Upwards elim today. I plan on reading thru the thread when I'm done with my errands today.

[DeltaWave]

In hindsight I can say that her behavior shortly before the Gamma elimination was strange, starting a huge discussion with Delta pretending to try to save Gamma, a player she knew was her opponent, while interacting comparably little with Hu Tao who I saw as the other piece of the puzzle in that situation. As I said in my 828, that looks like an potential avenue to explore for me and I would be interested in hearing an opinion from Delta and Hu Tao on it.

Back then though, I didn’t think any of that.

It's clear from the end-of-day events on D1 that Margot knew Gamma was going to flip town and was trying to collect townpoints by vehemently opposing a mis-elim. The fact is (and truly no offense to Gamma) is that Gamma did a bunch of scummy things despite being town and got eliminated for it. But Margot's apparent certainty about Gamma's flip sounded very much like she was trying to go into D2 looking spotless by opposing the wagon.

That being said, the timing of your vote really did look like it was trying to distract from the Margot wagon.

I am still way behind since I just got home but my limpool right now is pretty much just Upwards and PoP. I do want to take a look at Enchant because I also felt that Enchant's vote against Mucho was weird. I'm not sure if Enchant is running a gimmick or what but most of Enchant's posts (as I recall them) were pretty devoid of anything useful. Not sure if it counts as "IIOA" but it wasn't really participation. I am going to catch up sometime tonight.

[DeltaWave]

I am not a fan of unreadability, even if it's a gimmick or something.

[DeltaWave]

Have you played with Enchant before?

[DeltaWave]

I hereby intend to hammer. I want to see the claim though.

Meanwhile, pop, show your work.

[DeltaWave]

Why are you declaring intent to hammer with a week left in the day phase when you were hesitant to have Gamma on E-1 at the end of the previous day?

Wtf are you talking about. I was the E-1 vote. How was I hesitant?

[DeltaWave]

Meanwhile, pop, show your work.

The difference between these ISOs is very evident. It doesn't take long to look through.

viewtopic.php?t=89682&user_select%5B%5D=35064

viewtopic.php?p=13587857&f=56&t=90204&u ... B%5D=35064

I don't know if I would call it "very" evident but you might have a point. Townie enchant seemed to produce slightly more actual content while scum enchant was more flippant.

[DeltaWave]

Why are you declaring intent to hammer with a week left in the day phase when you were hesitant to have Gamma on E-1 at the end of the previous day?

Wtf are you talking about. I was the E-1 vote. How was I hesitant?

My reference was to this:

VOTE: Gamma, but I would unvote if Gamma got to E-1. I still want to get more information out of Alianna's replacement and to get some more activity in general going from people who are lower in the post counts. I'd also like Zeb to explain his vote, which seemed to come out of nowhere, and which made me think some things that I'll share after he explains.

It's a markedly different mentality and I was wondering what was the cause for the difference.

What the fuck are you talking about?

1. Post 445 is not "the end of the day" as you claimed in the first quoted post. It was 250 posts prior to the end of the day, which ended prematurely because GE unexpectedly self-hammered.

2. At the time of Post 445, we were still in D1 and Alianna just replaced. Also, I was waiting on more information from Zeb. Plus, there was still a lot of inactivity going around.

3. Are you going to do this every time? "You didn't want to quickhammer on D1 so how come you want to eliminate someone in D2 and beyond????"

I just don't know if you're trying to wind me up or if you're just trying to come up with some kind of argument but the reality is that D2 (and beyond) are different from D1. We have a lot more information, a lot more activity, and flips to look at in D2+. So yeah I'm against a D1 quickhammer.

[DeltaWave]

I forgot to mention that the only person who said they would quickhammer GE was Hu, but then Hu backed off that position. I didn't expect GE to do it herself.

[DeltaWave]

Delta and Hu Tao decided to say one thing and do the other, Mucho Man argued in what appeared like really bad faith to me, and Enchant is just acting super strange. I can not not be suspicious of them at this point.

LIKE I SAID ABOVE - I DIDN'T THINK GE WAS AT RISK OF BEING QUICKHAMMERED BECAUSE I DIDN'T THINK SHE WOULD SELF HAMMER

[DeltaWave]

Enchant seems like they are goofing around or something/not playing to their wincon. I can't get a read on them either way. There is an argument for a policy lim here but I would prefer something more substantial.

[DeltaWave]

I've already explained that. I asked Margot why she wanted to defend GE so badly because Margot seemed convinced 100% that GE would flip town. That was a very sus level of certainty on D1. Of course, that's because Margot knew exactly how GE was going to flip. If Margot wasn't vigged I would have come out of the gate on D2 with this.

The remaining scum are PoP and Upwards as far as I'm concerned. Enchant may be scum but I can't tell because of how they're playing. It's a decent elim from a policy perspective but if you want to catch scum you need to vote PoP or Upwards.

[DeltaWave]

I've already explained that. I asked Margot why she wanted to defend GE so badly because Margot seemed convinced 100% that GE would flip town. That was a very sus level of certainty on D1. Of course, that's because Margot knew exactly how GE was going to flip. If Margot wasn't vigged I would have come out of the gate on D2 with this.

The remaining scum are PoP and Upwards as far as I'm concerned. Enchant may be scum but I can't tell because of how they're playing. It's a decent elim from a policy perspective but if you want to catch scum you need to vote PoP or Upwards.

So in that case shouldn’t you have dropped your Gamma vote like you had announced previously?

And I ask again, Why are me and PoP Scum and why would Enchant be a decent elim if you’re so sure of that?

I have explained this multiple times. I don't know why I keep having to explain it, especially to you. However, I am going to explain it one last time. A lot of time passed between those two posts and the inactives got active. Because Hu withdrew his intention to quickhammer, I didn't think Gamma was in any immediate risk of being hammered and I wanted to put pressure on her. I did not expect Gamma to self-hammer and anyone who says they expect that is lying to themselves.

Enchant is a policy lim in my opinion. Enchant's single-minded desire to not meaningfully contribute means that they might be scum or they might be town but in either case, they are a liability as the game goes on. I can get behind that but my scum reads on PoP and you are much stronger than my desire for a policy elimination. I've already explained both reads. For you specifically, it was the timing of your vote in D1. And lots of people have explained this case too.

I'll post more rationale when I'm not at work.

[DeltaWave]

UNVOTE: Enchant

i'm ready to revote but i wonder if scum upwards would've hammered there

According to my reads as they are right now, the Enchant wagon is mostly town-led with the notable exception of PoP. It's interesting that nobody hammered, especially because it would have been a justifiable hammer. So either it's Scum!Enchant or my townreads are off.

[DeltaWave]

UNVOTE: Enchant

i'm ready to revote but i wonder if scum upwards would've hammered there

According to my reads as they are right now, the Enchant wagon is mostly town-led with the notable exception of PoP. It's interesting that nobody hammered, especially because it would have been a justifiable hammer. So either it's Scum!Enchant or my townreads are off.

Yeah i mean, i think scum upwards wouldn't dare hammering it? at least not without his partner encouraging it

i think we're onto scum one way or another today at least

There could be a lot of things going on here but it is an interesting dynamic. Could be Enchant and Upwards as teammates and Upwards doesn't want to let his partner go that easy.

[DeltaWave]

UNVOTE: Enchant

i'm ready to revote but i wonder if scum upwards would've hammered there

According to my reads as they are right now, the Enchant wagon is mostly town-led with the notable exception of PoP. It's interesting that nobody hammered, especially because it would have been a justifiable hammer. So either it's Scum!Enchant or my townreads are off.

Yeah i mean, i think scum upwards wouldn't dare hammering it? at least not without his partner encouraging it

i think we're onto scum one way or another today at least

There could be a lot of things going on here but it is an interesting dynamic. Could be Enchant and Upwards as teammates and Upwards doesn't want to let his partner go that easy.

I mean, i was more thinking in the line of "if i kill enchant today they'll deffo go for me tommorow" which would be pretty realistic given upward's rough position, regardless of enchant's alignement

I see your point, but Upwards was the other big wagon of the day so it doesn't really get Upwards out of anything by not hammering. It's possible that the scumteam didn't want all of them on the same wagon, or if I'm wrong about PoP, Upwards didn't want to hammer a buddy. Or maybe Upwards just got cold feet idk

[DeltaWave]

What's your case on PoP?

1. Zebedee's vote pattern was weird. He was on Gamma during the competing Gamma/Margot wagons and then, fairly mysteriously, moved his vote away from either of those wagons (specifically to me) and just sat out the rest of the day until he was replaced. No real rationale was given for this.

2. To make matters worse, he had some interaction with Margot that I see as being critical of Margot. It is somewhat hard for me to tell because I don't totally understand what he was saying but it sounded like he had an issue with Margot. Yet instead of voting Margot, he votes for a go-nowhere wagon and parks himself there without explanation. It feels like scum who doesn't want to bus their buddy on D1 but also doesn't want to be on a mis-elim wagon.

3. PoP replaces in and basically immediately begins defending Upwards, who also had suspicious activity on D1. PoP has posted quite a lot in defense of Upwards and is kind of thin everywhere else.

4. PoP also frustrated me by asking questions that I've answered before. (This may or may not be a scumtell)

However, I did find PoP's comment about Enchant's meta to be interesting and possibly he has a point there. Enchant looks to be more flippant as scum and that tracks in the games PoP posted. So I'm also entertaining Enchant/Upwards as a possibility.

[DeltaWave]

@Delta, do you agree with that last paragraph? If so, can I persuade you to join the Enchant wagon to try to get a clear on PoP?

Well clearly nobody else is going to vote for PoP so I am leading a crusade that's going nowhere. I'm fine with a vote on Enchant for obvious reasons.

VOTE: Enchant

[DeltaWave]

Gypyx or Delta have scum in them.

Not sure which. One of them is the head scum, though

You come to me on the day of my daughter's wedding and call me scum? Explain

[DeltaWave]

Good to hear that you're townreading your own slot though.

[DeltaWave]

They may not know which slot they replaced into or who is playing in the game, but they're darn sure about those reads. lol

[DeltaWave]

Big thing with Delta is i feel they’re posting in a way to control/keep a gamestate in a certain way. In addition, their move off of Margo slot when another wagon started spiking up looks like helping alleviate a partner that they were distancing from.

How did I move off of Margot's wagon when I was never on Margot's wagon?

FWIW I thought Clap was town and I was pretty sure Mucho was town, although it was hard to tell with the gimmick.

[DeltaWave]

The early discrediting attempts is already a good sign for my reads imo

Surely the only reason someone would call out that (1) you apparently didn't realize the slot which you replaced and (2) you weren't sure who was still in the game is that they are scum. Go go gadget confirmation bias!

[DeltaWave]

Oh, it was Gypyx who was on the wagon and moved over.

Don't let the fact that you were wrong change your opinion of course.

[DeltaWave]

I didn't fully catch up lol

[DeltaWave]

win-win-win

frankly, this game is over.

it's Lap + Hu Tao or Lap + Lucca like almost always this game unless Delta scum.

mass claim would trap scum, but we can be basicc with 2 c's this game, that's fine. Naerys already outed, so solid chances.

Scum kill me, I flip, and then sheep my reads after im conf towned.

1. We are not going to mass claim.

2. Even if you are a PR, your reads are not somehow more reliable just because you die.

[DeltaWave]

yeah, you guys are boring, found that out already

keep on with the discrediting. ;P my reads are 100% more reliable when I die.

yall can be fools and think otherwise, though

I thought Clap was town and Mucho seemed town but the gimmick was throwing me off, but now you are rolling down a hill while hitting every tree and rock on the way. Clap's town aura is still present in the air somewhat - but I don't like the call for a mass-claim and why you would claim to be a protective role for no apparent reason is mystifying to me. It smells very much like you are hunting for PRs by doing all of this and it is stinky. I can see no possible way that a mass-claim on Day 2 is going to help town. All it does is gather more information for a night-kill while making things more complicated for actual town PRs, who would either have to (1) out themselves or (2) lie and then potentially subject themselves to a mis-elim later if they have to tell the truth because they got some information during the night phase.

I still want to put you in the townpool if only because of Clap but this whole line of argument is really rubbing me the wrong way.

[DeltaWave]

I've already explained that. I asked Margot why she wanted to defend GE so badly because Margot seemed convinced 100% that GE would flip town. That was a very sus level of certainty on D1. Of course, that's because Margot knew exactly how GE was going to flip. If Margot wasn't vigged I would have come out of the gate on D2 with this.

So in that case shouldn’t you have dropped your Gamma vote like you had announced previously?

I have explained this multiple times. I don't know why I keep having to explain it, especially to you. However, I am going to explain it one last time. A lot of time passed between those two posts and the inactives got active. Because Hu withdrew his intention to quickhammer, I didn't think Gamma was in any immediate risk of being hammered and I wanted to put pressure on her. I did not expect Gamma to self-hammer and anyone who says they expect that is lying to themselves.

Sure, Gammas Selfvote was a surprise, but isn’t the whole point of E-1 that anyone could hammer at any time? Because otherwise, where would that pressure even come from?

An unannounced quickhammer can also be a source of valuable information. As I've said many times, the only person who expressed a desire to quickhammer was Hu but he changed his mind.

How long are you going to try to milk this for? Gotta cling to something I guess but surely you can fabricate something a little more creative.

[DeltaWave]

What scum asks for mass claim like that Delta?


Looking faaaaaake af

What PR claims without any prompting or pressure? You may be shooting a WIFOM angle here but it's a bad idea.

[DeltaWave]

Delta clearly coming at it in bad faith, but don’t know if they’re scum or just a surface level analyzer.

I'm not calling you scum. I'm saying that whatever you're doing sucks. No offense, but you're employing some kind of "worst Mafia player ever" strat. Claiming (probably fakeclaiming) a PR right off the bat, treating any criticism as a targeted attack from scum, declaring that you're the best scumplayer ever and you wouldn't play like this (as if you don't have control over your meta), asking for a mass claim and then implying it would be too scummy for scum to do, etc. I have seen your slot as town for a long time so I am not putting you in the scumpool but at the same time I wonder what the hell you're doing.

[DeltaWave]

Comical, are you also specifically claiming Doctor?

[DeltaWave]

If this really is a situation where both claims can't be true then it's going to take more brainpower than I have tonight.

[DeltaWave]

Comical, are you also specifically claiming Doctor?

Protecting Naerys was the plan.

What?

[DeltaWave]

OK so it's Comical's full doc claim vs. Lap's 3-shot doc claim. There is no way there's a full doc and a 3-shot doc. I think you both are town but one has to be scum. I'm too tired for this. I'm going to think about this tomorrow.

[DeltaWave]

If it's balanced without additional PRs then why would you assume there are other PRs besides yourself and Nerys?

[DeltaWave]

Let both live

Please don't start.

[DeltaWave]

If it's balanced without additional PRs then why would you assume there are other PRs besides yourself and Nerys?

because if there were more PR's, then scum could have more PR's, and it was also a way to lock scum in IF the remaining players in this game were Vanilla.

There were a lot of layers to it.

You can ask Hu Tao and Naerys, though, I always push to mass claim earlier than the norm unless i have specific reasons not to

if Lap is town then i am quite curious how does your scum self intend to talk itself out of that, Comical

i do not intend to.

I full expect to die right after

i think that's a key factor in showing that i am town

This makes sense and I hate that it does.

[DeltaWave]

The part that sticks with me is that this strategy would be completely suicidal for Scum!Comical.

[DeltaWave]

The part that sticks with me is that this strategy would be completely suicidal for Scum!Comical.

Too much scotch.

With one scum down it's hard to think that scum would suicide bomb themselves like this. That's what I can't get over.

[DeltaWave]

I'm going to wait for Lap's rebuttal before I solidify my thoughts on this.

[DeltaWave]

I could really use a VC.

[DeltaWave]

I'm going to re-read Lap. Obviously, there can't be two doctors in this game. It has to be one or the other today.

[DeltaWave]

Does the duplicate rule apply when one is an X-shot and one is full doc?

[DeltaWave]

My problem is that aside from this whole counter-claim debacle I can't read Lap or Comical as scum. But the unavoidable conclusion is that one has to be. If Comical is scum then they are basically throwing the game, so I'm going with that.

VOTE: Laplacian

[DeltaWave]

My problem is that aside from this whole counter-claim debacle I can't read Lap or Comical as scum. But the unavoidable conclusion is that one has to be. If Comical is scum then they are basically throwing the game, so I'm going with that.

VOTE: Laplacian

Lap / Margot had some very strong associatives as scum, can you trust that?

I was kind of unsure about that but I think today's events are a good enough reason to vote for Lap anyway.

[DeltaWave]

Enchant still the vote today please.

If Town!Comical, they are telling the truth and we catch scum today.

If Scum!Comical, they are lying and we catch scum tomorrow, and then it's most likely Enchant and then game over town wins.

[DeltaWave]

VOTE: Enchant

Will be accused tomorrow anyway, can as well get benefit from it.

What's the benefit? Do you have a buddy in the 1v1 and you don't want to tip your hand right now as to which one it is?

[DeltaWave]

Enchant's theatrics aside, we have two players with competing counterclaims and per Simple Normal rules, both can't be right. That means there is definitely scum in that pair and we have to resolve this before proceeding forward.

[DeltaWave]

Enchant's theatrics aside, we have two players with competing counterclaims and per Simple Normal rules, both can't be right. That means there is definitely scum in that pair and we have to resolve this before proceeding forward.

You are wrong.

"No duplicate roles are allowed."

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ple_Normal

[DeltaWave]

So your solution is to vote for yourself?

[DeltaWave]

let's not validate whatever enchant's pulling right now pls

let's not validate whatever enchant's pulling right now pls

let's not validate whatever enchant's pulling right now pls

let's not validate whatever enchant's pulling right now pls

let's not validate whatever enchant's pulling right now pls

^^^^^^^^^

[DeltaWave]

The way I see it is this: there absolutely has to be scum in the 1v1 per the setup rules. Period.

Enchant is gamethrowing either way and could be doing as scum (maybe to avoid associating with their buddy in the 1v1) or less likely, as town. Even so, the 1v1 is a much clearer source of scum than Enchant is. The issue behind the 1v1 is pure game mechanics, e.g. there cannot be two docs in a game. That's clear as day. Whatever Enchant's doing is not as clear. (Do not read this as me defending Enchant in any way, shape, or form. I'm saying that the 1v1 is better for finding scum.)

[DeltaWave]

I am mafia, i give up.

k. VOTE: Enchant
We get Enchant today so there's guaranteed a doc on Naerys, resolve the 1v1 tomorrow, ggez

Shouldn't you be crusading against the guy that counter-claimed you?

[DeltaWave]

My problem is that aside from this whole counter-claim debacle I can't read Lap or Comical as scum. But the unavoidable conclusion is that one has to be. If Comical is scum then they are basically throwing the game, so I'm going with that.

VOTE: Laplacian

I don't care much anymore who we eliminate, as long as Comical dies if Lap is town, but why is it throwing for Comical and not for Lap? Lap CC'd eagerly and earlier than he should have. He didn't need to lock himself into that 1v1 and guarantee his death if he's scum.

I'll re-read that whole interaction when I'm not between meetings but one factor that I've taken note of recently is that Comical is chowing down on Lap (as you would expect from a PR that was counter-claimed) but Lap doesn't have that same aggressiveness. Usually when a legitimate PR is counter-claimed they go nuts on the person who did that.

[DeltaWave]

This has to be the weirdest game I've ever played.

[DeltaWave]

Obviously one of Laplacian/Comical has to be scum with the impossible counterclaims. If people are getting cold feet about that then the next best wagon is Enchant. This should be simple.

[DeltaWave]

I'm not voting Enchant. There's merit in keeping both Lap and I alive.

So if you're really the doctor, what's the merit in keeping confscum alive?

[DeltaWave]

I'm not voting Enchant. There's merit in keeping both Lap and I alive.

So if you're really the doctor, what's the merit in keeping confscum alive?

Simple

I survive through the night.

Either we go Lap, and I’m like always the death here.

Or we go me, and lose protective.

I am still looking for the 2nd scum

You know that the point of the game is to eliminate the mafia, not keep you alive forever, right?

And did Hu claim to get an inno on Lap or was that a joke?

[DeltaWave]

We could just let scum sail into the endgame, I'm sure that's a great option.

[DeltaWave]

This 2 docs plan also confidently assumes that mafia doesn't have a roleblocker, which basically screws this whole thing up. Nerys flips town and we have the same problem as we do today.

[DeltaWave]

Imo, for scum to have another PR, there needs to be 2 PR's in the unclaimed Lucca/Delta/PoP

That's weird, you said you thought I was scum and are voting for me but this post implies that I'm not scum.

[DeltaWave]

right now, this feels like you're trying to twist words to turn a gamestate into yours and Lap's favor

Oh sure, I am trying to turn the game into Lap's favor by eliminating Lap. Whatever. This whole game is fucked up right now and I'm really tired of it. This day went so far off the rails that it's absolutely unreal. I don't care, just do whatever. We have the opportunity to lim some scum but who gives a shit.

[DeltaWave]

This is so ridiculous. Keeping both doc claims alive just presents us with the same decision to make tomorrow. Then what are we going to do? Leave it an open question until lim or lose? Having a flip out of one of these two would confirm at least one of them as scum and provide lots of information at the same time. It is objectively the right thing to do to resolve this today. Any possible benefit derived from kicking this can down the road would be totally blown out if scum has some type of roleblocking. (e.g. RB, Jailkeeper, JOAT, whatever.)

[DeltaWave]

UNVOTE: Laplacian

VOTE: Comical

Your big case is that you lied and I'm sus because I believed you? That's really amazing!! So this is your way of outing a doctor and trying to collect townpoints in the process. Lap is most likely a doc and probably would have stayed undercover if you didn't decide to lie to everyone. Now you're going to claim bodyguard so that nobody votes you out. Fun gambit but you're gone.

[DeltaWave]

It’s funny you waited until now to vote me

Until you admitted that you lied and this isn't really doc vs doc dueling counterclaims? Yeah what a shock!!!

[DeltaWave]

And when it didn't go anywhere, you changed your claim. But you're really telling the truth this time right?

[DeltaWave]

And of course, Comical started PR hunting heavily after making this fake claim to out as many PRs as possible.

EBWOP: The logic doesn't even make sense. Lucca and Upwards basically sat this whole thing out and by Comical's logic, they should be the highest on the list. But oh, nobody wants to vote for them. You need the votes to mis-elim.

[DeltaWave]

If i were scum, how does on explain why a PR who claimed died?

Don't pretend like you don't know that roleblockers exist.

[DeltaWave]

Oh great, so you lied and all you got out if it was confirmation bias. You can come up with a better excuse than this.

[DeltaWave]

"Yeah, I lied and counter-claimed a doc to try to sus out scum, but by my own logic the people who I should expect to be scum from this gambit aren't who I'm voting for. Instead, I'm shading people who I could possibly mis-elim. This all makes sense and I'm town."

[DeltaWave]

Lim All Liars. You aren't going to convince me otherwise.

[DeltaWave]

Do some low-key role fishing, lie to everyone, aggressively PR hunt so that you can out all of the PRs and find a safe fake-claim, sus the people who believed your lies, and then pass it off as a town gambit. If it works there should be a wiki page about it.

[DeltaWave]

Let me ask you this. If I was scum and you were town, wouldn't I know from the jump that neither you nor Lap were scum and therefore there was some stupid gambit at play here? I'd be off on the sidelines letting it play out. But the problem is, that's not who you're voting for and it's not who you're sussing. Giving some weak "ehhh they're just less townie than I thought" excuse is not the same. Instead, you're sussing people who you could conceivably get voted out.

[DeltaWave]

Presumably this argument is based on the idea that uninformed players will play differently than informed players, but the problem is that you've got it flipped all around. Uninformed players will see two competing doc claims and be very concerned by that to say the least. Informed players would know something is up and wouldn't get involved, or would be minimally involved. But you saw that Hu was willing to vote me, so my wagon potentially has traction, while Lucca and Upwards don't. This is how I know it's a sham.

[DeltaWave]

You spent how many posts trying to convince me you were telling the truth, and then when I believe you, that's a scum thing to do? You're truly full of shit.

[DeltaWave]

Come on, you aren't even going to make up another lie to explain this? Be creative

[DeltaWave]

I think we have a Lap, Comical, Hu Tao, Enchant, Naerys town core here, so that’s a good start. It’s only Day 2, plenty of time.

Right before you replaced in and then proceeded to spam the game with 300+ posts, most of which was just a total lie, Enchant was at E-1 and an Enchant lim seemed inevitable. Your lies and massive post volume basically diffused that wagon.

Specifically, it drew Gypxy's vote and my vote away from Enchant's wagon. Now, in a move that I am sure is NO COINCIDENCE AT ALL, your main scumreads are... the votes that were drawn away from the Enchant wagon. Even though, as I pointed out at earlier and to which you were totally unable to formulate a response, your own logic would dictate that your scumreads should be elsewhere.

Let's look at your townblock. Lap is a given, since you had to change your claim because you couldn't get more than a couple votes with your lie. You basically have no option but to put Lap there. And of course, you didn't change your claim until you did quite a lot of PR hunting so that you could figure out something that wouldn't be counter-claimed. Hu Tao is the only person who is on a wagon that's not your or Enchant's wagon. Enchant is the person who you saved from E-1 by lying. Naerys has to be vig because they claimed a vig shot and there's no other explanation for how Margot died. It's pretty transparent what you're doing here.

[DeltaWave]

Idk sounds kinda stupid, i mean if i flip, then comical forced in tough spot.

Anything is possible when someone is willing to lie. I'm sure if this turned out badly, it would be just another "gambit" and not a lie. If you were town you should be suspicious at the attempt to pocket you.

[DeltaWave]

Basically yes, i am not in position to be picky with alies.

That's my point.

[DeltaWave]

Aside from the claimed PRs, Comical's townblock is the one person who can't be picky about who allies with them and the one person who is on a wagon other than Comical or Enchant.

[DeltaWave]

Do whatever you want as long as you vote out Comical after I flip

[DeltaWave]

Gypyx has seemed like town to me but I agree that the slip is pretty suspect. There's a possible town explanation, but it's still very questionable.

What is the slip?

[DeltaWave]

I just give up, you guys figure it out

[DeltaWave]

I'm not scum. I was already frustrated by this 1v1 and now that it turned to all be a lie my frustration is through the fucking roof.

[DeltaWave]

Thats fine, just vote comical after you see my flip

[DeltaWave]

Who cares any more. My bad for believing Comical's claim. But yeah side with the liar that's fine. I'm sure there will be a new "gambit" to explain my town flip

[DeltaWave]

What made me so frustrated yesterday is that it sounds like Flavor Town/Comical are known for things like this and the conclusion that was drawn from this seemed to be based more on "are you familiar with Comical doing this kind of thing?" rather than "are you scum?" Like, if you knew Comical's personality and deduced that this was a stunt you are town, and if you aren't familiar with that and believed Comical you are scum. It doesn't even make sense to me because there's probably little chance that scum would take a side in the 1v1 because scum would know that both are town and there was some kind of gambit at play. I guess the theory is that Scum!Delta would think that Comical would counter-claim a doc for literally no reason and mis-elim the doc against their wincon? I don't care if people think I'm scum but if it's for a reason that doesn't even make sense it's going to piss me off.

I was also pissed because I had both Lap and Comical's slot as townreads and I was VERY clear about that. I only ended up voting Lap because Comical insisted over and over that they were 100% a full doc and it would be impossible for Lap to have a duplicate role. If Comical didn't argue so aggressively about being a role that's incompatible with Lap, I wouldn't have voted for EITHER of them. But then it's like "oh you voted for the doc, so you're scum... even though you would have never voted for Lap if I didn't make up a counterclaim and insist it was true for ages." It's all just really unfair and I'm still super frustrated about it.

[DeltaWave]

Yeah, the only time you ever voted for me in this game was for about 10 minutes on January 18th. If it's Town!Comical then your behavior sounds like something that would be much more in line with the activity that Town!Comical expected.

[DeltaWave]

(obviously not including your recent vote in that)

[DeltaWave]

Enchant, I would like to know retroactively what your reads were when you were doing the whole mysterious act. If you really are town then this is something you should be comfortable with doing.

[DeltaWave]

If you can credibly explain why I would side with Comical as Scum!Delta I'd self-vote. If I was informed, why I would expect that Comical would counter-claim a doctor for no reason at all and cause a PR mis-elim? If I was scum I would have done my best to stay out of it. So figure that one out.

[DeltaWave]

There are no third parties here. If it's Town!Comical then scum would have certainly not engaged in the fight, or only barely engaged, without taking a strong stance. They would know for a fact that Lap and Comical are both town and that Comical was pulling something.

[DeltaWave]

I think you should focus elsewhere, Delta.

Like even if you think I’m scum, who’s the partner?

I'm not even sure if you're scum anymore. All I am is frustrated and upset

[DeltaWave]

Happy to swerve to Gypyx or Upward if someone wants to make the effort to swing votes over there, maybe PoP or Lucca with a decent case. Just don't have energy atm to do it myself

I'd be down with Upwards. I still don't know what you meant by Gypyx made a slip.

[DeltaWave]

Happy to swerve to Gypyx or Upward if someone wants to make the effort to swing votes over there, maybe PoP or Lucca with a decent case. Just don't have energy atm to do it myself

I'd be down with Upwards. I still don't know what you meant by Gypyx made a slip.

? That was pop, not me who said that

My bad G.

[DeltaWave]

The main problem with today is that there still isn't a clear consensus about who is scum. My concern is that people will vote for me because "oh the day ends tomorrow and we have to lim somebody" which will be a good excuse when I flip town. And that's what we're going to do into D3 with, no clear scumreads and a townie flip with plausible deniability for those on the wagon. ("Oh I went with the gambit", "Oh we had to lim somebody, too bad it was a townie", etc etc.) It's not a position I'd like to be in and I would like to be here at least into D3.

No Lim is actually better than just "I had to vote because of the deadline" no-accountability votes.

[DeltaWave]

Assuming Town!Comical, scum would have been well aware that Comical was a townie pulling some kind of gambit. They would have definitely avoided interacting with the gambit and that's where we would find the scum.

[DeltaWave]

I think people overestimate people’s ability to act like they didn’t know something weird was going on.

So am I supposed to expect that when someone CC's it's always a gambit? What exactly should have tipped me off of if I've never played with you?

[DeltaWave]

This is a discredit. Gypyx might be scum here instead of delta but we don't have much time. Obviously different scenarios, we didn't know they were conf town at the time

Are they somehow bestowed with cosmic wisdom once they become conftown?

[DeltaWave]

I'm gonna flip green. Best of luck figuring things out tomorrow.

[DeltaWave]

Try not to let anyone hide behind "well we gotta lim somebody"

EBOWP: Yeah I'm down. VOTE: Upwards

[DeltaWave]

Its kinda funny how one decision can make or break the game

If you don’t shot there - or even better, shot town - we’d have been in a way more commanding position to make plays. Not wanna say that you saved town since it wouldn’t have been an Autowin for us by any means but you certainly made it a whole lot easier for your team.

Vigs are really swingy like that. If they hit scum, huge town benefit. If they hit town, huge down detriment. And if I was a vig I'd probably be targeting who is the most annoying so likely hitting town there.

[DeltaWave]

I mostly wanted to NK FuzDn because I got PR vibes and also seemed like an unlikely mislim