Micro Normal 1100 | Game Over

[FancyPants]

Yo
VOTE: Doctor Drew
Gob and GuyinFreezer are town

I don't have a lot of time to get into things tonight, more from me in about 12 hours.

[FancyPants]

Ok all caught up.

Towns:

Gob - My original town read on Gob was mostly a tone thing, coming into the thread and spamming, role claiming for lulz, and in general the idgaf what you think of me attitude strikes me as a town type behavioural pattern in general, fakeable but that's my general experience.
@Gob, can you please go into detail on 168 where you sus Roland, Not_mafia and Freezer?

Roland - seems to be genuinely trying to game solve I like how he's been suspicious of a Salon pocket and trying to dissect and poke into people's logic.

Salon - Genuine paranoia shown, I don't always agree with the conclusions he comes too but the attitude strikes me as a town one.

Nulls:
Everyone but Doctor Drew and Kay - I was initially town reading Freezer too for similar tonal reasons to Gob but after the kind of token contributions at the start of the game the desire to game solve has dwindled somewhat null for now.

Scums:

Kay - It feels a little too convenient that she has kind of floated about mostly giving town reads and then votes two lurkers in Not_Mafia and now Random_nurse.

Doctor Drew - my biggest scumread thus far his first post of 107 where he claims no reads after multiple pages of content and then urges us to slow down strikes me as anti-town at best and scummy at worst.
Additionally and worse imo is this interaction as someone has already pointed out:

I'm not taking any liberties or twisting arguments.

I am telling you that you are twisting my arguments and misrepresenting them. I know what my arguments are, what I am saying, and you do not. It is not

your

place to decide whether

you

are fairly representing what

I

am saying. It is

mine

and mine alone.

I really vibe with this, seems like genuine frustration.

Roland, how much experience do you have with mafia?

The bolded line is a pretty clear implicit town read.

He then goes back on this and votes Roland in the next post.
He explains that he never town read Roland but I don't see how you can read the bolded line above in any other way, which strikes me as dishonest.

My votes already on Doctor Drew and I'm happy where that is.

[FancyPants]

@Salon, on post 194, this kind of frustration generally reads town more than scum to me.

[FancyPants]

EBWOP: *Solon sorry

[FancyPants]

I think townies are just as eager to defend themselves as scum, in some ways it's more emotional to defend oneself as town because you know your accusers are wrong. Whereas if you're scum you know your accusers have a point.


Do you buy that Drew's 166 is not an implicit town read of Roland?

[FancyPants]

VOTE: Random Nurse

This is indeed a random vote.

Any thoughts on what's happening above between Drew and Roland?

I still think they’re both town at the moment.

Interesting, do you mind expanding on why you think so?

[FancyPants]

I just don't think there's enough substance between the town read and the vote to justify changing.
Additionally I don't like that Drew doesn't really own up to changing his mind - instead he kind of pretends he didn't town read Roland in the first place.

[FancyPants]

@KayJay, Can you expand on why you think both Drew and Roland are town.

[FancyPants]

Hmm I kinda like your response honestly.
Although I do think you're wrong about Drew. To be honest.

@GuyinFreeze - if you had to elim someone right now who would it be?

[FancyPants]

Hmm I kinda like your response honestly.
Although I do think you're wrong about Drew. To be honest.

@GuyinFreeze - if you had to elim someone right now who would it be?

If I have to pick a single name, Random Nurse

Is that because of lurking and PoE or something more? I don't hate that, just asking.

[FancyPants]

Ok damn, I think I have a bad timezone for this game, give me an hour or two to catch up.

[FancyPants]

OK caught up.
Honestly struggling to see where Jackson is coming from with his suspicions on Roland. He seems the most actively trying to figure out the game in a logical way, his thought process is consistent, and I totally agree with everything he is saying about Drew.

I'm also not sure why Kay is getting a pass from everyone, I don't think she's taken any real stances on the game and she seems a little too confident of her town reads - she's claimed a few times that interactions are TvT when the only scum could possibly be sure of such things. That said I mostly agree with her reads so I can't get too mad at this stage.

Not mafia is just a pain - I only play a game every 2 years or so on this site but I've noticed a trend with really experienced players basically trolling the whole game - I'm not sure if it's because they are trying to create a style that's impossible to read, or they are just kind of over things in general but it's annoying. I find it very difficult to gel with anyone who doesn't explain their actions at all.

Drew isn't really willing to defend himself against what I feel is a perfectly legitimate case - honestly not defending oneself is kind of townie but I could see him being lazy experienced scum.

RN is probably scum through PoE could countenance a Lim here

Roland isn't scum because of effort, thought process and emotion
Solon isn't scum for similar reasons in particular I like the paranoi.
Gob/Jackson isn't scum for tone - but I really didn't like his vote on Roland - but maybe there is something I don't get here - it's just weird that he town read Roland and then voted quickly after - I do think I can see where he convinces himself out of the read though.

Freezer - Meh I'm not sure - gut says town, tonally mostly.
Kay - Leaning more town these days - but it's mostly because we align on thoughts and not due to reads.

I'll vote for anyone in RN/NM/Drew/at this stage - and I'll listen to Roland/Solon/Freezer on who, as my town block, I think Jackson is town but I personally don't think they have a good grasp on this game seeing as their two strongest reads are my strongest townread - and the only person I can confirm is town.

@Jackson, why is drew town in your eyes?

Post has been edited to remove the use of a banned word.

[FancyPants]

Apologise for the wall but I'm most active between now and the next 7 hours - which seems to conflict with most other people so I'm usually catching up on a few pages.

[FancyPants]

@Not Mafia, if you had to elim someone now, who would it be and why?
Nurse if you ever appear same question.

[FancyPants]

I think we just need to elim Nurse, high chance of scum based on PoE reads. I didn't know his meta was to lurk if scum but that helps too, even if he is hanging a lampshade.
VOTE: Random Nurse

[FancyPants]

I'll vote for anyone in RN/NM/Drew/at this stage - and I'll listen to Roland/Solon/Freezer on who, as my town block, I think Jackson is town but I personally don't think they have a good grasp on this game seeing as their two strongest reads are my strongest townread - and the only person I can confirm is town.

Are you joking? What makes you believe you’re right over me? This is honestly insulting, different reads doesn’t mean I don’t have a grasp on the game. Stop this line of thinking immediately.

No offense intended, I'd just rather follow my opinions than yours, I think you're mostly wrong in this case so I don't want to follow your lead.

When I said you don't have a grasp on the game I didn't mean in general, I meant in this particular game I think your reads are wrong.

[FancyPants]

You’re never going to believe this: I think you’re both town.

Check back in at 11 for more great reads and a weather report.

Seriously though, I think scum is enjoying watching you guys fight and not saying shit.

How locked in are you in this belief that Random Nurse / Not_Mafia are the scum team?

Oh I’m 0% locked that they’re BOTH scum. I think I’m 99% locked one is. I think the other is in my town reads. I’m null on Fancy, no clear read there yet. It’s possible they’re both bad but I highly doubt it.

What do you mean by 0% locked Kay?

[FancyPants]

I’ve had a few drinks tonight so take this with a pinch of salt but I have a weird tinfoil hat feeling about Kay + one of NM and Nurse being the scum team.

I’ve expressed discomfort the entire game on Kay’s surety that various interactions have been TvT just because only scum would know that and it lacked the proper paranoia, and now her 0% comment set me off. You might have a not that much confidence that both lurkers are scum but the 0% comment makes it seem like she knows.

If you’ve gotten town reads on almost everyone except the two lurkers, surely you back yourself a little here.

Anyway I’m going to do a reread tomorrow this might be wild conjecture but it feels right.

We should still Lim random nurse, his meta fits with disinterest in the game and replacing out (I skim read some games), nothing more to add from me. It ain’t Roland, Jackson, Solon - probably not gif either scum in Nurse, NM, Kay and maybe still drew will try to dig in on reread tomorrow.

Posted Edited to remove a bad word.

[FancyPants]

I understand what you mean but 0% locked is still a weird phrasing. Even if one randomly selected scum pairings it would never be 0%, I understand the word ‘locked’ adds context but no townie is really locked onto a read anyway.

It’s really late for me so I have to go to bed but before I do,
@Kay, what’s your experience playing mafia outside of this site. And two:?
@kay if you had to eliminate someone this instant who would it be and why?

[FancyPants]

I understand what you mean but 0% locked is still a weird phrasing. Even if one randomly selected scum pairings it would never be 0%, I understand the word ‘locked’ adds context but no townie is really locked onto a read anyway.

It’s really late for me so I have to go to bed but before I do,
@Kay, what’s your experience playing mafia outside of this site. And two:?
@kay if you had to eliminate someone this instant who would it be and why?

1. I played a few games around 2021 on discord but they weren’t long form like these. I watch mafia games on twitch/youtube though, but that’s the extent of my experience.
2. Not_Mafia

That’s not really a helpful answer to your case in my eyes. My experience with newbies is that they tend to over read everything and mistrust easily.
In your favor is that you’re mostly reading the same as me, but arrogance (hubris?) tells me no newbie would townread as assuredly and in lockstep with me.
I don’t know. Let me sleep and reassess I suppose.

You make me want to unvote and vote NM though.

[FancyPants]

I understand what you mean but 0% locked is still a weird phrasing. Even if one randomly selected scum pairings it would never be 0%, I understand the word ‘locked’ adds context but no townie is really locked onto a read anyway.

It’s really late for me so I have to go to bed but before I do,
@Kay, what’s your experience playing mafia outside of this site. And two:?
@kay if you had to eliminate someone this instant who would it be and why?

1. I played a few games around 2021 on discord but they weren’t long form like these. I watch mafia games on twitch/youtube though, but that’s the extent of my experience.
2. Not_Mafia

Lol.
Let me have another read and then maybe.

[FancyPants]

I need to get some thoughts in order, if you don't mind can I get a few opinions on the record:
@Drew, what do you think of Kay?
@Kay, are you leaning more town or more scum on Drew?

[FancyPants]

Snow is saying we have it right and they'd rather not read the whole thread. Just put them out of their misery.
I've replaced into heavily suspected slots as town and the instinct is always to fight, because you don't want to let the dastardly scum get away with it.

[FancyPants]

Why would a guy sub into a game just to say "eh you can go ahead and hammer me"?

Yeah I’m not vibing with that. Is it really possible we just got 2 apathetic people in the same slot? To me that makes it a lot less certain to me that it’s scum. Unless this is some play but that’s extremely risky especially jumping in late and taking that stance.

Wait why does town give up more likely than scum here?

[FancyPants]

Snow is saying we have it right and they'd rather not read the whole thread. Just put them out of their misery.
I've replaced into heavily suspected slots as town and the instinct is always to fight, because you don't want to let the dastardly scum get away with it.

I didn’t think of that. So it’s more of a “they already suspect me, why bother” kind of attitude in your opinion than a “I don’t want to do all this work as town when they’re about to vote me out”? I can’t really tell the difference.

Because as town you know that people are wrong or that your wagon has nefarious actors, so there is incentive to play to win.
If you're scum that replaces in to a scummy slot there may be nothing you can do to convince anyone. Also you

know

the wagon is actually correct so it's much harder to bs your way out of it.

[FancyPants]

I need to get some thoughts in order, if you don't mind can I get a few opinions on the record:
@Drew, what do you think of Kay?
@Kay, are you leaning more town or more scum on Drew?

Have you figured out how you’re feeling about all this yet?

It's really hard to move onto other suspects when we still have NM and the Snow slot in the game - it might be the case that they are both scum, I've had games like that before.
I'm trying to avoid overthinking for the moment. It's fair to say I'm very suspicious of you.

[FancyPants]

Just to be clear I'm not scum reading you because our reads align I'm scum reading you because you've been fairly sure that certain interactions have been TvT, and the 0% comment was suspicious for reasons I've gone into.

Anyway I'll keep an open mind.

[FancyPants]

Catching up.

[FancyPants]

Unfortunately I've run out of time to do the analysis I want to do, I have a lunch.
I feel like I need to do a meta dive into NM before I can get behind an elim for them.

Not convinced snow has done anything to convince me the slot isn't scum.
Apologies in general I usually play at work, and weekends are a busy time for me.
Give me a few hours.

[FancyPants]

I'm sorry everyone I'm just not going to have time to catch up today, lunch has become a barbeque and rugby watching day. Tomorrow hopefully.

[FancyPants]

Ok at work and have time, have a hefty chunk of catch up. Reading now.

[FancyPants]

I'm going to to stream of consciousness rather than a wall. For context I'm not caught up from page 34 - Snow had replaced in but not said anything of substance yet.

The first big post worth addressing is snows first substantive read list 844. I don't love the post at all it's a lot of commentary on how people play and what they are up to without to many firm scum suspicions and accusations.
Particularly his summary:

- GiF, Jackson and DD – don’t think they should be limmed now.
- Not Mafia – can be a candidate, but looks more like a policy lim. Not sure this will give town a lot.
- Roland – the best candidate from the standpoint of info for the town. One of the 4 players in the initial conflict. A lot of conflicts are associated with him. But he is the most active and dedicated player. Limming him on D1 is a tough decision.
- Kay – can be a candidate. But again not sure this will give town a lot.

It's a lot of talk about how much information a particular lynch can give us without a lot of suspicions and scum suspects.

It feels like an easy way to give information without really committing to a stance which I think is scummy behaviour. Then again it's possible it's a style thing.

Continuing...

[FancyPants]

GiF makes a bit of a take down on the Snow thread here 847 I agree with everything that GiF has said here but what's really interesting to me is the departure from how GiF has approached the game thus far. He hasn't really done this for anyone else. Almost coaching? Coaching and bussing? I've seen this kind of approach from a newb + experience scum team before. No hard accuse just tinfoil hatting.

[FancyPants]

GiF asks some good follow up questions on RN here in 867 , I read backwards to see where GiF's head was at before this and they were complaining about having too many townreads - and had the Snow/RN slot as basically there number one scum suspect - so basically the tinfoil hat scum coaching/bus team thing could easily just be GiF "activating" in that they finally had a scum read to question who might answer.

[FancyPants]

Roland and GiF continue to pressure snow/RN, mostly good stuff from them - I'm interested to see where this turns around.

[FancyPants]

Just for the record - Solon happy to back off the snow wagon at this stage - suggests a switch to NM, reason is basically policy, I don't hate this but it's worth noticing. Jackson doesn't like the NM direction - but can countenance it to improve the discourse, I can sympathise with that.

[FancyPants]

It would be unfortunate if we eliminate Snow and he flips town, as he is actually contributing meaningful content, whereas Not_Mafia will never do so, and if he ever makes it to melo then then game is lost anyway if he's town.

I also don't think Snow's catch-up is nearly as bad as is being made out. I think his response has been calm and balanced, not in the least survivalistic, and I think he made some decent points. It's never easy catching-up in a game, especially when everyone already thinks you're scum.

Don't love Solon's soft defence of snow here - meaningful confident is <> town, as scum it could just means he's contributing on his deathbed. Seems like Solon is more in favour of policy than anything else.

[FancyPants]

Ok solon and Drew argue about snow - some good paranoi from Solon here 907, I hate to say it but I mostly agree with Drew's interpretations here. Still think Solon is town though.

[FancyPants]

Hmm maybe Drew is town here as well I can see the cogs turning.

[FancyPants]

OK I need to speed up I'm doing this catch up at a crawl - If anyone has questions for me about anything that happened let me know, for now I'll try to focus on things I think are relevant.

[FancyPants]

The Roland replace out is so freaking weird until I see he actually has very few posts - everyone who's been around the block a bit has had some vicious arguments and been accused heavily but maybe as a newbie it felt overwhelming - think it's a townie replace out though - born from frustration at being accused when innocent rather than folding to pressure.

[FancyPants]

If you're going to ride my ass no matter what I do

Dang, I always miss all the fun.

Are big arguments fun when it's two people you town read? Frustrating for me. It's fun if you're scum - Kay continues to give me bad vibes.

[FancyPants]

If Not Mafia flips town, I will be voting for myself tomorrow.

I've been outdueled by Drew at this point and I have no chance of clearing my name while I'm alive. You need to see my alignment to truly see this is a waste of time and effort. HE needs to see it, if he's actually town. There should only be 2 scum in this game and you can take 2 mis-eliminations. My flip certainly seems to be the most informative you could make tomorrow so I'm all in favor of it.

I just don't have that game under my belt here where I can show you that me being frustrated and getting emotional is something I do when I'm wrongly accused of guilt. I get it, you don't trust me and you rely on things like that, I understand.

I am just truly at a loss on how to get through to you. More than one of you is actually arguing that Snow is my teammate, despite me having pushed Snow to E-1 yesterday and leaving him there until someone ELSE had to unvote, while we were all aware that Not Mafia clearly intended to swoop in at any given moment and hammer. I have said all day long how I support eliminating both Snow and Not Mafia and you seriously think I chose my teammate, casting a vote that legitimately could have gotten him killed, when I could have otherwise just voted Not Mafia and avoided the risk. I tried to explain how silly this theory is to you guys and you still don't see it, so I fucking give up, I am out of arguments if something THAT clear still doesn't matter to you.

At this point you just want cold, hard facts, so I'll deliver that to you with my dead body.

Paranoia is good, this attitude is so anti-town though holy shit.

[FancyPants]

Gif says as much a few posts later.
Enter Malachai.

[FancyPants]

Malachai replaces in and has some back and forth with Jackson - I actually think Malachai brings up some good points here. Why was I town reading that slot again? It was mostly based on trolly tone and the replace out which I really shouldn't read anything into.

Roland as dismissing my skill at the game, and you're scum-reading Gob's behaviour simply for having seperate reads from you. That's the extent that I understand both your current read on Gob and Roland's behaviour saying I had no grasp on the game.

I actually said you had no grasp on the game - although I think I added additional context, interesting that you mixed us up here - does town forget who insulted them? Hmmm

[FancyPants]

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Ok really...

[FancyPants]

I'll provide explanations if I think it's appropriate

Why did DownBad drop that low

Have been very underwhelmed by LaToya, looking back I think I was just reading gob's naturally obstinate nature as town

Hmm, I might be having a stroke because I agree with something NM said?

[FancyPants]

OK in summary.
Malachai/Solon: almost definitely town.
Drew- prob town: I've turned around on Drew, but it might just be that I like the way he thinks and posts - meh.
GIF/Kay/Jackson - potential scum: a few things off here I'll explain my thoughts if anyone wants to know.

NM - Null, our styles don't mesh at all - slots impossible to read, I understand the wagon to an extent but I think we can do better.

Snow - scum, slot was already scummy for RN being inactive, and for the few posts they made - also admits to being less active as scum. Snow's contributions are mostly just commenting on styles and talking about elims that may "benefit" town rather than actively hunting for scum.

@Snow, sorry if I missed it but can you explain your Kay case?

In short I still wanna vote snow and hope everyone can get on board.

If I need to explain any specific read please ask - I've expanded my scum pool a little mostly because my uncertainty about everything has increased.

[FancyPants]

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Also can someone who speaks NM translate this for me. My annoyance was for putting themselves at the lowest point. I think Feathers is me and they explicitly said Latoya is Jackson. I don't know the rest.

[FancyPants]

OK in summary.
Malachai/Solon: almost definitely town.
Drew- prob town: I've turned around on Drew, but it might just be that I like the way he thinks and posts - meh.
GIF/Kay/Jackson - potential scum: a few things off here I'll explain my thoughts if anyone wants to know.

NM - Null, our styles don't mesh at all - slots impossible to read, I understand the wagon to an extent but I think we can do better.

Snow - scum, slot was already scummy for RN being inactive, and for the few posts they made - also admits to being less active as scum. Snow's contributions are mostly just commenting on styles and talking about elims that may "benefit" town rather than actively hunting for scum.

@Snow, sorry if I missed it but can you explain your Kay case?

In short I still wanna vote snow and hope everyone can get on board.

If I need to explain any specific read please ask - I've expanded my scum pool a little mostly because my uncertainty about everything has increased.

I always want to hear why people think I’m a baddie!

I mean, maybe I'm scum who's making up bullshit, where is your paranoia Kay!

[FancyPants]

@Kay. in general my reasons for scum reading you haven't changed - no paranoia, no real scum reads or even things that ping you as scummy throughout the game, you've mostly just town reading everyone and your suspicions are based on process of elimination. Finally you never vote, and seem to enjoy large arguments even when you perceive them as town v town.

It's not a strong read but it's niggling me.

[FancyPants]

@Solon, when did this:

It would be unfortunate if we eliminate Snow and he flips town, as he is actually contributing meaningful content, whereas Not_Mafia will never do so, and if he ever makes it to melo then then game is lost anyway if he's town.

I also don't think Snow's catch-up is nearly as bad as is being made out. I think his response has been calm and balanced, not in the least survivalistic, and I think he made some decent points. It's never easy catching-up in a game, especially when everyone already thinks you're scum.

Change to this?:

Snow is my bigger scumread, but I refuse to play further with Not_Mafia, so that's unfortunately where I stand.

It may well be that they are both scum, in which case it's an easy game.

[FancyPants]

Around about here:

Right now I'm in a strange position.

I think Snow has a higher chance of flipping scum, but I feel as though we need rid of the Not_Mafia slot for the sake of the game.

Ok but it felt like you were town reading snow after his entrance - have I just misinterpreted that?

[FancyPants]

I'm also busy on weekends so no shade there.

However all those votes you made were for RVS, policy or inactivity - so it doesn't show me you are identifying scummy behaviour real or imagined.

[FancyPants]

I'm also busy on weekends so no shade there.

However all those votes you made were for RVS, policy or inactivity - so it doesn't show me you are identifying scummy behaviour real or imagined.

It’s so sweet to have a tunnel, as an homage to me, in the forefront of your mind. You know it’s been said that when you go through a tunnel, if you hold your breath and make a wish, it’ll come true! Just thought you might try that to find the actual scum every time you drive through that Kay tunnel before posting here (:

If you read my summary post you'll see you're not my scummiest read nor am I voting for you.

[FancyPants]

Games been super stagnated for a while, few pushes happen but it ends right back to policy

I mean it's 50 odd pages but we have been swimming in the same pond for a while. As for Kay I know the focus has mostly been around the two initial lurker slots but most other people are at least throwing shade elsewhere and seem to be suspicious of other people. I don't see that from her.

[FancyPants]

For what it's worth I don't think Drew did anything thing wrong with regards to Roland - if he's scum he's allowed to do whatever he wants to win and you're both town those kind of interactions happen all the time.
If he wants to play mafia he's just going to have to get used to them and develop a thicker skin.

Anyway I guess the day could end any second. I still think it's snow for the record - I'd love to know why GiF is hard townreading them now. Kay, GiF and Jackson still my pool for the final one, I maybe need a reread during the night phase though - pointless until we actually see NM flip and confirm the claim.

[FancyPants]

Yeah I haven't discounted the possibility it's a fake claim at all.

[FancyPants]

NM was at E-1 before and never claimed, don’t put this on Kay.

The hammer was bad but I've seen newb town do similar things before. I'm scum reading her independently of the hammer.

[FancyPants]

Sorry I have to prod dodge - been really busy.

My initial thought is that we wasted 30 pages of arguing when we had the scum team of NM and Nurse like 15 pages in.
That said I can't remember well enough whether that scum team makes sense and will need to ISO snow and NM. Kay and Jackson still vaguely suspicious to me but that may be paranoia.

I haven't caught up and can't tonight, I apologise but it can't be helped.