Mini Normal 2335: Rainbows (Game Over)

[Roden]

VOTE: Not Mafia

[Roden]

No I’m not.

Do you enjoy playing scum?

[Roden]

No I’m not.

Do you enjoy playing scum?

I hate playing as scum but I used to be better at playing scum. How about you?

I feel the same way, actually. I still find it fun if I have the right mindset going into the game beforehand, but I tend to dread red PMs these days.

[Roden]

Madman is probably town, the suggested strategy isn't likely to come from scum imo

[Roden]

This random voting doesn't help tells. I don't get the point of it since people also intentionally avoid building wagons randomly from it.

Wagons matter, pure randoms don't.

In reference to your previous post, ending the day killing nobody isn’t optimal but I don’t have an issue with people who think it is.

Random voting is just something that happens, it’s a way to get conversation going. Sometimes an early wagon can help develop reads.

I can argue why it's superior game theory play for Town that DP1 ends in No Elim here rather than Scum.

The only time this becomes less true is with regulars who play hardball. Then softclaims and subtle buddying Vs bussing chaos can ensure to be read later.

I'm interested in reading the argument, but I don't think giving scum a free Day 1 is ever going to happen. I don't see how we could ever pressure anyone if the threat of elimination doesn't exist.

[Roden]

JV's early investment feels +town

[Roden]

Spoiler: Madman

This random voting doesn't help tells. I don't get the point of it since people also intentionally avoid building wagons randomly from it.

Wagons matter, pure randoms don't.

In reference to your previous post, ending the day killing nobody isn’t optimal but I don’t have an issue with people who think it is.

Random voting is just something that happens, it’s a way to get conversation going. Sometimes an early wagon can help develop reads.

I can argue why it's superior game theory play for Town that DP1 ends in No Elim here rather than Scum.

The only time this becomes less true is with regulars who play hardball. Then softclaims and subtle buddying Vs bussing chaos can ensure to be read later.

I'm interested in reading the argument, but I don't think giving scum a free Day 1 is ever going to happen. I don't see how we could ever pressure anyone if the threat of elimination doesn't exist.

Okay. Threat of elimination comes day 2 instead of day 1.

Fast no elimination increases the odds Mafia can't read PRs vs vanillas but the price paid is lack of reads Town has on Mafia.

13 people. This is simple normal with a set 3 Vs 10 split where neither side is ever that powerful in an offensive manner.

3 people need only towntell DP1. 10 people need to townread 9 others and scumread at least 1 other as a majority while themselves Towntelling to the 9. This makes Town far more rigged against.

Let's say they land on Scum. Scum will presumably100% of the time if remotely competent, claim a PR to either get votes off of them or to entice Town PR to CC. However this 100% is ofc an illusion. We can say someone who is scum may claim vanilla as a double bluff.

Town usually ends up with 3 scenarios happening:

1. They forced Town PR to out while voting Scum (beat case scenario).
2. They vote off Town vanilla (bad but not as bad as scenario 3).
3. They vote off Town PR and not in an exchange where the PR got CCd (that's 1 for 1 it's zero sum trade) but instead in a scenario where the PR was unccd and assumed scum. (This is the worst case scenario).

To avoid scenario 1, the Town has to I crease likelihood of scenario 3. It's a toxic situation where they don't even ha e 1 night action report to guide the way things go.

The Scum gains more from DP1 playing out in full in PR reads and planning who to frame later based on who people already suspect. I am fairly immune to blindly stick tosuch biased but most players aren't. Most stick to DP1 reads all game and deny it's pure stubbornness rather than reinforced reasoning to the reads. This lets Scum navigate nightkills to frame others and easily glide to DP4 even if partner was voted off DP1. Again and again and again this happens in general. People think it's just part of the game but it all is because they gained far more from DP1 nonsense talks happening and focused on who suspects who and kept it nicely surrounding them.

This strategy sounds nice in a vacuum, but requiring the entirety of the town to play optimally, let alone without confirmation bias, is a bit of pipe dream. And I don't see why town wouldn't just treat Day 2 as the "real" Day 1 in this scenario and do all the things that you want town to avoid during Day 1.

[Roden]

So far I am townreading Ka

I

A

M

T

H

E

T

O

W

N

C

O

P

yJay

Does Not_Mafia do this a lot?

Kind of.

What do you think of his play?

[Roden]

VOTE: T3

[Roden]

I’m still in rvs, I haven’t decided yet who’s worthy, I need to see more.

We’re out of rvs now though so would be interested to see where you’re at now.

VOTE: T3

Why?

He's been surprisingly quiet, I expect him to be more active even in slower games.

[Roden]

Spoiler: Robbnva

man I forget how slow games on this site can be. Some sites have 48 hour days which is too fast but 2 weeks is definitely too slow.

Then help to end it faster.

By getting a good vote reasoning and pushing the wagon.

Pressure is good, rushing isn't. Pressure can end days faster if done right.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere as long as this discussion keeps going tbh. You're kind of the center of attention and everyone is either just spectating, commentating, or trying to challenge your strategy, and there isn't much alignment-indicative content being made because of that. I think it would be best to drop the argument altogether and focus on giving reads and making a serious vote.

What do you make of the current game state? Do you think scum is trying to lay low right now? Do you think Robb vs Hu Tao is TvS or TvT?

[Roden]

Spoiler: Robbnva

man I forget how slow games on this site can be. Some sites have 48 hour days which is too fast but 2 weeks is definitely too slow.

Then help to end it faster.

By getting a good vote reasoning and pushing the wagon.

Pressure is good, rushing isn't. Pressure can end days faster if done right.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere as long as this discussion keeps going tbh. You're kind of the center of attention and everyone is either just spectating, commentating, or trying to challenge your strategy, and there isn't much alignment-indicative content being made because of that. I think it would be best to drop the argument altogether and focus on giving reads and making a serious vote.

What do you make of the current game state? Do you think scum is trying to lay low right now? Do you think Robb vs Hu Tao is TvS or TvT?

Unsure why you're trying to paint us as potentially against each other when I haven't even said I scumread them. And they just did an initial vote on me.

Don't really like the word choice here. I'm not "painting" anything, you two are the only ones having any real conflict so far. And saying that you're unsure of my intentions is just a vague statement that shades me while keeping you from having to take a stance.

Even if you haven't directly said that you scum read him, that's the only thing I can infer so far. You're interested in how he plays as scum and asked for links to his past games. You've also been shading him for his vote on you. If you don't scum read him, then what's your stance?

[Roden]

Sorry I haven't been around, spring allergies have been kicking my ass. I've been keeping up though, just gotta finish reading the last couple pages.

[Roden]

I'm less suspicious of Hu Tao after our interaction though. I think she would have tried to finesse her way out of any scrutiny if she were scum, instead of the initial brute force reaction of scum reading me. Especially since she already kind of did that against Robb.


I'm not 100% confident in town reading her yet though, 225 is a smart way to try to disengage and lose some heat if she's scum. For now I just don't think I want to pursue an elim there and want to see how the rest of her gameplay progresses.

[Roden]

As I'm making it known now that I scum read you. This doesn't feel like town your for some reason. I'm listening to my vibes

I think you rely on meta a bit too much. And more importantly I don't even agree with the meta read. What are you basing this off of?

Vibes. But he acts plays 2 different ways but I remembered he played the way now as town and scum. So I don't think it is worth considering

I am actually interested to see a more in depth explanation for this though.

[Roden]

It's 2024

Who puts a Town Cop in their 2024 Mini Normal

Truthfully idk the norms of setups here, just that they're super basic (and I like it that way usually so I'm not complaining).

A cop is a typical town investigative PR to have in a game. Idk if that's not usual here, I admit that.

I feel the cop is flavoured to weaken, potentially. However asking the flavouring is going to absolutely hurt Town. The cop if unflavoured means scum probably has 2 PRs then, to balance it out.

Idk how unusual that is. I know mafia but not specifically setup norms or rarities here, I am more interested in the game of reading people than setup mechanics personally.

Set ups here typically don't have ungated Cops, so HA not claiming any modifiers is inherently suspicious. If she isn't an alt and is genuinely new to the site, she might not have picked up on that particular bit of site meta over the past few months she's been here.

Regardless we should probably avoid voting out a potential Cop just because of meta, if it's a real claim then scum have no choice but to kill her tonight.

[Roden]

Can someone tell me what Charles has done to deserve not being voted?

Absolutely nothing. He's not really playing the game or contributing much of anything.

[Roden]

Can someone scumread me so I feel reason to put effort in? Thank

I’ll do a proper analysis when I get my keyboard back, I’m mobile posting for the meantime and it’s gross

VOTE: JV

[Roden]

VOTE: awesome

Actual serious vote goes here. This slot is kind of like Charles in that they're not doing anything, but I get the feeling that he's intentionally trying to fly under the radar and keep his posts to a minimum.

[Roden]

It's 2024

Who puts a Town Cop in their 2024 Mini Normal

Truthfully idk the norms of setups here, just that they're super basic (and I like it that way usually so I'm not complaining).

A cop is a typical town investigative PR to have in a game. Idk if that's not usual here, I admit that.

I feel the cop is flavoured to weaken, potentially. However asking the flavouring is going to absolutely hurt Town. The cop if unflavoured means scum probably has 2 PRs then, to balance it out.

Idk how unusual that is. I know mafia but not specifically setup norms or rarities here, I am more interested in the game of reading people than setup mechanics personally.

Set ups here typically don't have ungated Cops, so HA not claiming any modifiers is inherently suspicious. If she isn't an alt and is genuinely new to the site, she might not have picked up on that particular bit of site meta over the past few months she's been here.

Regardless we should probably avoid voting out a potential Cop just because of meta, if it's a real claim then scum have no choice but to kill her tonight.

People keep saying this as if protective role won't be on her...

No choice but to do that also ignores possibility of roleblockers or something like godfather/miller. Scum have options beyond just killing her NP1.

Follow The Cop is too optimal and too cringe for most mods to ever allow an ungated Cop and a protective role to both be in the set up. Even if a Roleblocker exists, that's still too swingy for town and basically requires scum to get lucky.

Is godfather possible in simple normal?

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ple_Normal

[Roden]

It depends on the game type tbh. Complex set ups have a lot more roles, and Theme games can have more bastard roles as well.

[Roden]

I completely disagree with the idea that one needs to vote their scumreads. I recognize that some people might think so, but I think it's very silly that anyone would think that anyone who disagrees is scum.

Mixture of me thinking he hasn't done anything particularly townie, wanting a wagon, and having a lack of better scumreads

Also very very silly

Who are you voting if not your scum reads??

[Roden]

Black the reason I showed intent to hammer is due to the fact in many posts I wanted to hear some reason for the vibe reads HA had. I wanted to get a little more concrete reasons for these not having her out. That is my bad, but this is better than someone hammering without stating intent. I don't want that to happen to anyone for any reason. It sounds so shitty to have happen while your away or doing other things.

I agree that it's better to declare intent but the issue I'm having is I don't understand why you declared intent in the first place

I will say I was probably not going to vote her out. I want to put pressure on things so I can understand more HA's reads would have helped me a lot if I had specific quotes for them

Claiming intent to vote someone out while not actually intending to vote that person out is uh...not particularly townie. That's blatant role fishing. I can't think of any real reason why town would do this.

[Roden]

Sheeping HT wagon, revolutionary thought.

That an accusation or an offer? By all means come on over, i'll make brownies.

Quite JV's last 3 posts in this thread and tell me why he made them.

I can't ask more as it apparently is OGI but there's a context I need to to answer in. Why did he says all that just for it to end this way?

Justify his thinking to me as a Town one.

Lack of WIM is not alignment-indicative.

[Roden]

I like Greedy's sass, not in the "I think it's townie" kind of way but in the "this game needs a blunt aggressive voice" kind of way

[Roden]

Lack of WIM is not alignment-indicative.

Why did you feel the need to address a question for me that I had refused to entertain?

Because I understand what kind of player Madman is

It's fine if you want to have your clapbacks, but I'd rather that Madman didn't focus on the wrong things

[Roden]

Want-It-More

It essentially means if someone has enough motivation to try hard and follow up on their arguments, especially during strenuous games

[Roden]

I like Greedy's sass, not in the "I think it's townie" kind of way but in the "this game needs a blunt aggressive voice" kind of way

To be fair, I do that as scum too. Is that not what made you tr me before when I was scum in that one game?

I'm not town reading Greedy's sass, I just like that he's a dynamic voice that got people to talk more. I do think his interactions so far have been townie though.

[Roden]

Robbnva, Roden, T3, awesomeming327 - Your votes right now are not going anywhere. Please either make a stronger case or be constructive elsewhere. Town WILL be led by scum with so many non participants.

Not_Mafia, Charles510 - I know you guys are going for a whole shtick thing here (And I do not wish to damage your glass houses) but the same can be said of yourselves. Find some way to incorporate your shtick into doing anything please.

I don't think either Hu Tao or Black are scum, I'd rather elim Awesome or LK today.

[Roden]

i understeand why kay's ISO was so short now lol

UNVOTE:

i must go, i'll be pondering my orb

Your predecessor also town slipped

I don't think you're trying to commit to a gimmick here so you're very likely just town imo

[Roden]

Remind me. What was the town slip?

Hi, sorry that I haven't posted until now. I never got a link to the game so I didn't know that it started

I just looked at the role PM again and realized that the link to the game was in the title

This is too gimmicky and gutless to come from scum. The implication is that if he was scum, he would actually know that the game had started since the scum PT would be active and talking about the game.

I just don't think that two different players within the same slot would try to fake a town slip as scum.

[Roden]

Robbnva, Roden, T3, awesomeming327 - Your votes right now are not going anywhere. Please either make a stronger case or be constructive elsewhere. Town WILL be led by scum with so many non participants.

Not_Mafia, Charles510 - I know you guys are going for a whole shtick thing here (And I do not wish to damage your glass houses) but the same can be said of yourselves. Find some way to incorporate your shtick into doing anything please.

I don't think either Hu Tao or Black are scum, I'd rather elim Awesome or LK today.

Can I have your reasoning on susing me? I know Black's reason so I want to understand yours

Black the reason I showed intent to hammer is due to the fact in many posts I wanted to hear some reason for the vibe reads HA had. I wanted to get a little more concrete reasons for these not having her out. That is my bad, but this is better than someone hammering without stating intent. I don't want that to happen to anyone for any reason. It sounds so shitty to have happen while your away or doing other things.

I agree that it's better to declare intent but the issue I'm having is I don't understand why you declared intent in the first place

I will say I was probably not going to vote her out. I want to put pressure on things so I can understand more HA's reads would have helped me a lot if I had specific quotes for them

Claiming intent to vote someone out while not actually intending to vote that person out is uh...not particularly townie. That's blatant role fishing. I can't think of any real reason why town would do this.

[Roden]

I completely disagree with the idea that one needs to vote their scumreads. I recognize that some people might think so, but I think it's very silly that anyone would think that anyone who disagrees is scum.

Mixture of me thinking he hasn't done anything particularly townie, wanting a wagon, and having a lack of better scumreads

Also very very silly

Who are you voting if not your scum reads??

Never got a response to this btw

[Roden]

What is the vote count now? I kind of want to be the one who gets to hammer

Impossible, NM is in this game

[Roden]

...Is that the extent of your thought process to that?

[Roden]

Remind me. What was the town slip?

Hi, sorry that I haven't posted until now. I never got a link to the game so I didn't know that it started

I just looked at the role PM again and realized that the link to the game was in the title

This is too gimmicky and gutless to come from scum. The implication is that if he was scum, he would actually know that the game had started since the scum PT would be active and talking about the game.

I just don't think that two different players within the same slot would try to fake a town slip as scum.

Scum can easily say that. Easily.

I mean, sure, they definitely can. But I'm not looking at those posts in a vacuum. Gypy's posts also line up with it being a true town slip due to her own town slip and generally townie posts. And I don't think either player are that gimmicky as scum.

[Roden]

Put greedybear on my scumreads list rn.

Oh it's greedybanger not bear, I was confused by LK's message.

I am basing it on JV not GB.

Has this changed at all yet Madman? What's your view on Greedy at this point?

[Roden]

Alright, just wanted to see if this was a tunnel on the slot or if you specifically scum read Greedy now

[Roden]

Hu Tao please vote greedybanger again or Ill be forced to vote you as I Townread awesomeming and you're the only other wagonable person.

If you think Greedy is scum, then voting the way he wants would be counter-productive, wouldn't it? He wants to elim Hu Tao and doesn't want to Awesome to be elim'd.

[Roden]

Arguing semantics about the odds of someone flipping scum Day 1 is useless. Gypy is saying that she feels most confident that Awesome will flip scum over anyone else and hasn't been given any evidence to suggest otherwise; she didn't actually run a statistical analysis on scum flip percentages.

[Roden]

Robb suddenly wanting to vote me is not at all Towny btw, robb basically goes back and forth on his reads relentlessly, yet he can't justify why he himself didn't vote HA.

Robb/Black/HA can literally be the team.

I would support a rational lynch if others do. They are back to a null read to me and we really won’t be able to work together. I’d still rather an awesome or hu lynch though.

This want a lie either.

Point blank gaslighting. That is exactly what's going on here.

Can you please just swallow your pride and drop this argument? No one's buying into your case and you're hurting your credibility.

[Roden]

Wait, did that rule get reinstated? I played a game a few months where I replaced into a scum slot and I immediately got cased as scum due to being a replacement and what the previous players in my slot were doing in other games. I hadn't even posted yet, and the mod didn't do anything to stop it because the site rules didn't disallow it.

[Roden]

That's so fucked lmao

[Roden]

HA is confscum at this point but we don't need to rush the elim

[Roden]

In fact I want to draw out this day as long as possible so that they're forced to post game-progressing content or be force-replaced

If that sounds mean well too bad, they gave us zero content yesterday and then quick hammered

[Roden]

Is it okay if I vote now? Or should I just wait for awhile

I don't think it matters much, if the rest of the player list decides they just want to end the day early then HA will get elim'd regardless. But I think it's worth spending talking about Day 1/Night 1 and seeing where people stand now.

[Roden]

VOTECOUNT 1.12

awesomeming327

(7)

- Robbnva, Roden, Gypyx, LoveKilling, Black,

Hu Tao

,

halfasleep

halfasleep

(2)

-

Not_Mafia

,

T3

LoveKilling (1)

- GreedyBanger

Robbnva (1)

- RationalMadman

Not Voting (2)

-

awesomeming327

, Charles510

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2024-05-16 20:40:00).

Killing off the last HA pusher is an interesting choice, maybe they thought it town spewed him

[Roden]

awesomeming, black, jacksonvirgo probably town

rationalmadman, hu tao, robbnva maybe scum

I’m leaning to both black/jackson slots as possible scum. Black makes more sense. I haven’t really paid attention to the other player that much.

This is interesting but I would put HA as more likely to do a 1 and 1 than fully townread both.

Why 1 and 1 when HA didn't even name everyone in her lists? If it is 1 and 1 then Black should be scum from your perspective.

VOTE: black

Just my gut

Typing out more just now, do you think black takes the first HA wagon to E-1 as a partner?

HA fake claimed almost immediately, it's likely that it was discussed in the PT and that scum would vote her so that they could distance from each other.

[Roden]

VOTE: halfasleep

e-1

anyway i'm a town cop. didn't expect to be made to claim over literally nothing but here we are.

my crumbs are here:

evidently

, i don't agree.

and here:

fair enough lol.

c

an't

o

verly

p

ick fault in that

VOTE: T3

The crumbs seem fine to me. The optimal play is to leave the claimed PR alive. If halfasleep is town then scum have to take care of her at some point. If she's scum then she can potentially spew her teammates and clear people with results

I don't think T3's scumread on halfasleep could possibly be strong enough to want to fade her here and I think scum is more likely to try and force the fade through

These posts are not a good look now.

VOTE: Black

[Roden]

HA fake claimed almost immediately, it's likely that it was discussed in the PT and that scum would vote her so that they could distance from each other

Funnily enough this is part of the reason I think LK is scum. Her sudden willingness to hammer HA seems too unnatural to be real

I don't town read LK, but I don't see a sudden willingness to hammer HA in their ISO. 357 could possibly be interpreted that way I guess, but it's just a matter-of-fact statement imo.

[Roden]

Greedy if I was town how would that change any reads you have?

HA actually goes down towards town. Black goes up towards scum. RM goes up towards scum. Anyone on awesomes wagon who isn't you goes up as we are coalescing towards a terrible compromise candidate here in a hurry and it reeks.

My current egocentric view of today so far is that the scum team leaned in on this assessment and decided to come out guns blazing against Black today.

Who came out guns blazing?

[Roden]

HA fake claimed almost immediately, it's likely that it was discussed in the PT and that scum would vote her so that they could distance from each other

Funnily enough this is part of the reason I think LK is scum. Her sudden willingness to hammer HA seems too unnatural to be real

I don't town read LK, but I don't see a sudden willingness to hammer HA in their ISO. 357 could possibly be interpreted that way I guess, but it's just a matter-of-fact statement imo.

She admitted it was intent

Are you talking about 546?

[Roden]

This game solve is annoying if scum just aren't playing

[Roden]

awesomeming, black, jacksonvirgo probably town

rationalmadman, hu tao, robbnva maybe scum

I’m leaning to both black/jackson slots as possible scum. Black makes more sense. I haven’t really paid attention to the other player that much.

This is interesting but I would put HA as more likely to do a 1 and 1 than fully townread both.

Why 1 and 1 when HA didn't even name everyone in her lists? If it is 1 and 1 then Black should be scum from your perspective.

VOTE: black

Just my gut

Typing out more just now, do you think black takes the first HA wagon to E-1 as a partner?

HA fake claimed almost immediately, it's likely that it was discussed in the PT and that scum would vote her so that they could distance from each other.

Greedy could you respond to this

[Roden]

awesomeming, black, jacksonvirgo probably town

rationalmadman, hu tao, robbnva maybe scum

I’m leaning to both black/jackson slots as possible scum. Black makes more sense. I haven’t really paid attention to the other player that much.

This is interesting but I would put HA as more likely to do a 1 and 1 than fully townread both.

Why 1 and 1 when HA didn't even name everyone in her lists? If it is 1 and 1 then Black should be scum from your perspective.

VOTE: black

Just my gut

Typing out more just now, do you think black takes the first HA wagon to E-1 as a partner?

HA fake claimed almost immediately, it's likely that it was discussed in the PT and that scum would vote her so that they could distance from each other.

Greedy could you respond to this

Does this game have daytalk? Or did you mean n0? Did the game have N0?

SELF AWARE OF OBVIOUS "TOWNSLIPPING," WHERE DID I PUT THAT WINE.

What

[Roden]

Spoiler: Greedy

awesomeming, black, jacksonvirgo probably town

rationalmadman, hu tao, robbnva maybe scum

I’m leaning to both black/jackson slots as possible scum. Black makes more sense. I haven’t really paid attention to the other player that much.

This is interesting but I would put HA as more likely to do a 1 and 1 than fully townread both.

Why 1 and 1 when HA didn't even name everyone in her lists? If it is 1 and 1 then Black should be scum from your perspective.

VOTE: black

Just my gut

Typing out more just now, do you think black takes the first HA wagon to E-1 as a partner?

HA fake claimed almost immediately, it's likely that it was discussed in the PT and that scum would vote her so that they could distance from each other.

Greedy could you respond to this

Does this game have daytalk? Or did you mean n0? Did the game have N0?

SELF AWARE OF OBVIOUS "TOWNSLIPPING," WHERE DID I PUT THAT WINE.

What

When did the HA hey I think you should claim cop and we will push you there conversation happen? There isnt daytalk. There would have been a brief window N1. Do you think a black scum partner would think immediately scapegoating HA would have been good?

How do you know there isn't day talk?

[Roden]

awesomeming, black, jacksonvirgo probably town

rationalmadman, hu tao, robbnva maybe scum

I’m leaning to both black/jackson slots as possible scum. Black makes more sense. I haven’t really paid attention to the other player that much.

This is interesting but I would put HA as more likely to do a 1 and 1 than fully townread both.

Why 1 and 1 when HA didn't even name everyone in her lists? If it is 1 and 1 then Black should be scum from your perspective.

This was the other thing I wanted you to respond to Greedy.

[Roden]

awesomeming, black, jacksonvirgo probably town

rationalmadman, hu tao, robbnva maybe scum

I’m leaning to both black/jackson slots as possible scum. Black makes more sense. I haven’t really paid attention to the other player that much.

This is interesting but I would put HA as more likely to do a 1 and 1 than fully townread both.

Why 1 and 1 when HA didn't even name everyone in her lists? If it is 1 and 1 then Black should be scum from your perspective.

This was the other thing I wanted you to respond to Greedy.

I think sentence 1 can provide an explanation for sentence 2. My 1 and 1 thing was just not very well thought out.

I understand it's not very well thought out, but that was still your immediate response to seeing your name associated with a red flip. What is your thought process behind soft accusing Black of being scum and then pulling a 180 and hard defending Black?

[Roden]

What sparked that realization?

[Roden]

What sparked that realization?

It having been pointed out to me that the list wasnt exhaustive and thinking more about what this Black wagon could be.

What do you think Robbs goals where in bringing up that reads list to me Roden.

But you're scum reading the person who pointed that out to you...

[Roden]

If you want to know Robb's thought process then you should probably ask Robb

[Roden]

VOTE: Greedy

[Roden]

The ISO drop down list at the bottom of the page lists everyone's pronouns

[Roden]

This is getting frustrating

It's been a fucking week Psyche. Why replace into a slot and then do nothing?

[Roden]

Mfers be like "this site is dying" and then don't post and kill games

[Roden]

VOTE: Psyche

[Roden]

Charles' vote sucks but Psyche is asking to die at this point

[Roden]

You know we might've believed the shit you're selling if you weren't openly mocking the player list for waiting on you to play all week

[Roden]

Psyche actually flipping red is wild, I feel like his elim was completely avoidable if he just did the bare minimum

After reading through Madmad's ISO I feel like Black is spewed town, I was gonna say Robb as well but uh I guess scum realized that too

[Roden]

VOTE: Greedy

I think this still makes the most sense as scum

[Roden]

LK and Charles don't make much sense as final scum because neither gain much from bussing Psyche. Their votes came in late enough that they didn't earn much town cred, but in doing so they also sealed Psyche's fate, when in all honesty he could had easily survived if the Day phase got stalled out.

There's a possibility I could be wrong about Gypy and that she did fake her town slip, and if anyone else is doubting her then we should talk about it. It could explain why I'm still alive even though I've been town read for most of this game, she might expect me to stubbornly defend her.

I'm voting Greedy first though because him and Madman argued and sussed each other a bit but never made any real attempts to elim each other. I think it's also possible Psyche fell on his sword to save him, maybe feeling bad that Greedy was trying hard to win while having no WIM himself.

[Roden]

I will not vote Awesomeming and am actively against the vote but I think no other vote is going to succeed now.

Unless you've got anything tangible awesome is the slot that has the highest odds of flipping scum

No, it isn't. You made that up.

Can we please try to tone down the biterness? This is something i'm legitimately thinking, and we're not gonna go very far approaching things like that

I do not owe you some tone just like you don't owe me some tone. I can be bitter after he flips Town, right now I just said a fact. You made up 'odds' that don't exist.

I don't think this argument was faked.

Maybe it's just ming/Greedy

772 seems like a lie and I don't understand why town!Greedy would lie here

how do you feel about it potentially being greedy attempting to white knight ming, getting caught, and hoping a mind townflip will calm some of the heat?

Why aren't you suspecting me of that?

I think it's possible Gypy was exactly right here and that's why Madman jumped in here even though he had nothing to do with the discussion.

[Roden]

Hu Tao please vote greedybanger again or Ill be forced to vote you as I Townread awesomeming and you're the only other wagonable person.

If you think Greedy is scum, then voting the way he wants would be counter-productive, wouldn't it? He wants to elim Hu Tao and doesn't want to Awesome to be elim'd.

I don't have a hard scumread on him if that's what you mean. I scumread Black the most.

This looks really bad for Greedy too.

[Roden]

Why would we No Elim before MELO?

[Roden]

I think i should be the execution as i've spewed myself to be VT really hard

???

Why would we elim someone who was spewed as VT?

[Roden]

Why would we No Elim before MELO?

We get to pick between 5 and then 3 instead of 6 and then 3?

That might be ok if we didn't have any overtly townie slots. I think it's pretty clear scum won't be killing anyone from the suspect pool, so we'd just lose a townie voice tonight if we went for a No Elim.

[Roden]

I think i should be the execution as i've spewed myself to be VT really hard

???

Why would we elim someone who was spewed as VT?

to be clearer, i'm spewed as either vanilla or scum

Oh. Even so, why do you think that means you should die first?

[Roden]

Why would we No Elim before MELO?

We get to pick between 5 and then 3 instead of 6 and then 3?

That might be ok if we didn't have any overtly townie slots. I think it's pretty clear scum won't be killing anyone from the suspect pool, so we'd just lose a townie voice tonight if we went for a No Elim.

I don't see the game that way.

Why?

[Roden]

Fair point

[Roden]

Meanwhile, the game state is once again dying because no one is allowed to talk

God I love losing momentum after town successfully elims two scum in a row

[Roden]

Is it lost on anyone that the last person who suggested a No Elim was scum?

[Roden]

I've already gone over how that isn't a point in your favor...

[Roden]

Meanwhile, the game state is once again dying because no one is allowed to talk

God I love losing momentum after town successfully elims two scum in a row

Why is no one allowed to talk?

We can't discuss reads

[Roden]

Huh??

[Roden]

I'm voting the person who suggested it, repeatedly explained why I think it's a bad idea, and have not been subtle at all in saying that all it will accomplish is the death of either you or myself despite neither of us even being on the suspect list.

[Roden]

Greedy, LK, and Gypy are the only other voices who have been active and they've all agreed to a No Elim. They're also the three slots up for elimination.

I've made my case on Greedy and I was waiting to see your case on LK.

Charles literally isn't here.

There's not much else that can be done here if 4/6 players are deciding not to play.

[Roden]

I'm annoyed that the scum team's strategy for 90% of the game has been to not play the game

Yet we still have a decent chance of losing because town is buying into the strategy of "What if we just let scum decompress after losing two buddies two days in a row and then let them kill townie slots for free?"

[Roden]

Lmaooooo

[Roden]

Can we please just kill this dude already

[Roden]

Greedy you do know you fucked up by saying it's anti-town to discuss reads only to then discuss your reads after you get called out for scummy behavior, right?

[Roden]

There are too many scummy people this is not good

At this point I really don't think it's Charles. If he was scum and Greedy and I were TvT, he's in the best position to win by just floating through to end game.

I agree that LK was scummy early on but I feel like their posts got better over time. I think you feel as strongly about LK as I do about Greedy, so maybe Charles' replacement can offer a new perspective that could sway us one way or another.

A Gypy vote might be safest but I just...idk. Everything about that slot's play would have to be gimmicky as fuck from beginning to end for her to be scum. Even asking to be voted out before MELO feels lame if she is scum since it's such low effort reverse psychology in that case. I've only played against scum!Gypy once so I don't have a full grasp on her meta, but I don't think she would play like this. Unless she's just memeing, I guess.

[Roden]

Just fully in on throwing the game if you are town Roden. Sincerest apologies if this is insane.

I'm at a point where I'm hoping you're scum because of your play. I don't even think you're playing particularly poorly if you are town, it's just that you're the only one playing to win a scum objective.

[Roden]

maybe i'm just memeing

[Roden]

Ehhh...idk what the chances are of us having an investigative role. Vig + Gunsmith implies that a third role is either low power or some kind of protective role, if it even exists. Two PRs vs three Goons also feels possible.

That's a stronger argument for No Elim though

[Roden]

Roden Greedy and Gypyx what are your top 3?

Greedy Gypy LK

[Roden]

my wim is fucking back, am i allowed to not roll over the floor and try to murder whoever replaces charles

I would genuinely prefer that you try to win regardless of alignment

[Roden]

I think this would probably be one of the silliest games I've ever been in if the final scum really is Charles, because that would mean town just fought with each other for 95% of the game

[Roden]

Gypyx every one of those posts make me scumread Roden more PLEASE HELP. Theatre of doing good cop/bad cop in the thread with RMM. Realising HT is a consensus townread after my failed push on them D1, saying as much in the thread, and then killing HT that night. Repeatedly being very salty that the scum team apart from them was very self sabotaging.

If I can't get Roden I am getting you today Gypyx.

If I was scum then I would have told HA to make a better fake claim, and I would have capitalized on bussing Psyche once I got whiff that his heart wasn't in this game. If you want to check past scum games of mine, you'll see that I don't get salty over losing team mates early, and have even bussed a PR scum buddy Day 1 when I felt it was necessary. I've also put in effort to save scum buddies who were low activity. Doing nothing and getting mad that my scum buddies aren't doing anything isn't really my MO.

[Roden]

If I was scum then I would have told HA to make a better fake claim, and I would have capitalized on bussing Psyche once I got whiff that his heart wasn't in this game.

I don't think you had time to do the former before the cat was out of the bag and you literally just did do the latter so its weird that you are saying you didn't.

What do you mean I didn't have enough time? An entire Day phase went by.

What makes you think voting Psyche is a bus attempt? And why wouldn't I just vote out Charles instead?

[Roden]

If I was scum then I would have told HA to make a better fake claim, and I would have capitalized on bussing Psyche once I got whiff that his heart wasn't in this game.

I don't think you had time to do the former before the cat was out of the bag and you literally just did do the latter so its weird that you are saying you didn't.

What do you mean I didn't have enough time? An entire Day phase went by.

What makes you think voting Psyche is a bus attempt? And why wouldn't I just vote out Charles instead?

The claim of full cop was out there very quick and out of nowhere. I dont think it was coachable.

Psyche was playing anti scum, it would have been horrible for their partner not to be on their wagon, their only purpose towards the end was as bus meat.

I don't understand how this specifically applies to me then

[Roden]

I explained why behaviorly this doesn't match my scum playstyle, you said that doesn't matter because I still voted Psyche

Except, you know,

four

other people also voted Psyche. Your case seems to boil down to that my vote

has

to be a bus when four other people match the exact parameters that you say qualifies as a bus. You're giving us absolutely nothing to go on besides that.

[Roden]

That's kind of a pointless thing to bring up in the first place then

[Roden]

???

I brought up why my scum play doesn't match what happened in this game. Your argument was that it does because I voted Psyche, which you conceded wasn't a valid argument. Hence why I said I don't know why you brought up that point in the first place.

I think it would more sense to argue that my behavior as scum actually does match. I think that's something worth bringing up if you think that's true. Or you could try to argue that meta doesn't matter, I think that's fair as well. Arguing a generic point that doesn't specifically single me out as scum is pointless though.

[Roden]

That's making me doubt my scum read on you now though because it feels like you could be a tunneled townie grasping at straws. Idk. Maybe it is just Charles and this game is silly.

[Roden]

What do you mean by "I have no agency"?

[Roden]

I just said that would play into my usual scum play though...

[Roden]

VOTE: Charles

[Roden]

That's pretty much where I'm at now

[Roden]

That's pretty much where I'm at now

Where is LK in your list?

He was third in the list, but I agree with the theory that you'd be dead over Robb if he was scum, so I'm backing to setting him aside again

[Roden]

I think Black would be dead right now and Robb would still be here if it were LK.

Not that changes much from this point but the thought just came to me and feels right.

having just read through, i don't think black was as clearly consensus townread going into n3 as she is now

robb was super spewed town from RMM death on the other hand

i think LK would believe that even if black stays alive there's free elims available with charles and gypyx which is exactly where they headed

The biggest hang up for me at this point for scum!LK is why they would kill Robb over Black, but that's a good point

[Roden]

This would be an insane amount of work and analyzation to put in for a late game scum replacement

[Roden]

UNVOTE:

I want to see what LK thinks

[Roden]

I think fire has that kind of wim as scum, although i've never *actually* seen her but yeah

Is it just a vibe thing?

[Roden]

That's fair

[Roden]

Also fair

[Roden]

VOTE: LK

[Roden]

I've already said everything that needs to be said, I don't really have anything else to add.

[Roden]

I could tell you were softing a PR but I don't think it really matters at this point of the game, LK. I don't think you can prove your role, and claiming 2-shot JK with only one used shot on Day 4 feels weird. And being confident that it clears me also feels weird because it doesn't seem like you're accounting for the possibility of me being a Juggernaught. HA and Psyche both flipped as Goons, so a set up with three strong town PRs heavily implies that the third scum would have a PR.

Also, what was your reasoning for targeting me?

[Roden]

@roden pull thru

you're dying soon we need you

Sorry, I've just been busy. I think it's just LK, and I think town has just been talking to themselves all game. LK's claim is kind of the perfect fake claim if they're scum, because they can kill me, "fail" a JK on you, and then freely push Greedy tomorrow (assuming we mis-elim Gypy today in this scenario) because they already said Black is conftown and mechanically Greedy would have to be the PoE.

Idk it just feels too perfect for LK and the claim gives them a path to victory they wouldn't normally have. They didn't sufficiently crumb their role, and their posts would imply that Black was the N3 target, not me, since they had me lower on their reads list than Black. LK also doesn't seem to be considering if a scum Roleblocker or Juggernaught interfered with their role, which I think would have to exist if their role was legit. Three powerful town PRs with scum having zero counterplay seems kinda wild to me.

[Roden]

Otherwise the potentially safest play is voting Gypy today, and if she flips town then seeing what happens tonight and recalibrating tomorrow. Because I guess it is possible that LK is legit and scum just don't have any counterplay for some reason, and LK might actually catch scum tonight.

[Roden]

For the record, if anyone has a role other than Vanilla, they really need to claim now. Even if you don't think it counterclaims LK, it's still good info to have now, and the town is less likely to believe you if you suddenly claim in ELO.

[Roden]

VOTE: Gypy

[Roden]

Imagine if the mod is in the dead PT like "I can't believe they're trying to kill their JK" and all the dead townies are shaking their heads at us (me) trying to outguess the mod

[Roden]

LK should hammer here, not fire, and should be explicit about the Jail before night. This is correct right?

Yes

[Roden]

Somebody has to be scum...

[Roden]

Rip, well played Black

GG and thanks for modding Ausuka and Datisi

[Roden]

He truly was a madman