Mini 2295 | Star Trek uPick - Fin!

[GreyICE]

The temporal alliance made me think of the temporal Cold War and now I’m sad.

Who can I murder to forget about Enterprise again?

[GreyICE]

I guess that's fair.

You’re calling breaking up the coalition fair?

You sure it’s not because penguin doesn’t want to vote his scum buddy rogue?

Vote:Penguin

Two scum caught, page 3

[GreyICE]

Honey you’re so high the only way you could see us is with the Hubble telescope

[GreyICE]

That’s scummy. I’m posting too.

Soft claim on page 3 lol

[GreyICE]

Yes yes very townie. I think we sh…

LOL DID YOU GET AN AWESOME FAKECLAIM? CANT WAIT TO SHOW OFF YOUR FAKIE AND SCARE US ALL OFF?

[GreyICE]

FOOL! YOU HAVE FALLEN INTO MY TRAP! STUPIDITY IS HOW I SCUMHUNT!

Vote: Hebi

FOR PLAYING SMART

[GreyICE]

Is that why you're in such a hurry to wagon hebi?

UNVOTE: hebi, VOTE: xyzzy

Scum detector go beep beep

[GreyICE]

What do you townread from Black on pages one and two?

you're new here, and i've been sort of nice so far but I have a limit.

I do not generally explain townreads. The answer you get this time is GUT >=D!

The more detailed answer is I saw something within their play that indicated they are town within those first like, 5 posts, mostly an exchange with you.

What that is, I'm not explaining.

She's lying. She'll explain her town reads, in great detail, any time it suits her. It's mostly because the town read is weak and for nebulous reasons, and if she gives details then scum-black can play into them. So basically if the read is weak, there's no good motive to give any details because if you're wrong all it does is encourage scum to play into a confirmation bias (and if the logic becomes accepted it becomes a blind spot that can last until endgame).

Besides, we're only eliminating one person today. That means no matter what, there's twelve people we're not eliminating, and any good townie would tell you that's eleven living people too many. So discussing the elimination is far more productive.



So, moving past the theory discussion Rogue, you tossed down your vote on post 21. That's fine, it's a good vote for post 21. But here's the thing, unless something has changed, I have to assume that your reason is the same as it was in post 21. So has anything progressed for you? Because I can be sold on wagons, but unless you've got the mother of all Stoofer tells I'm not doing it off a post 21 read.

[GreyICE]

Nah, more like "my girlfriend feels bad that I'm hyper shoving her on page 5 of a mafia game I invited her to and I don't want to be the reason she quits mafia right after she rejoins mafia".

But also she's scum sooooooo

[GreyICE]

The nice part is that if Hebi is scum we actually have a way to read LLD for once.

In that LLD wouldn't start out this game by throwing Hebi under a bus based on those awkward first few pages, she'd see if it could slide and opportunistically bus around 3-4 days in when Hebi had some time to get used to the new reality. I'd say that's actually a v. strong read.

So if Hebi is scum, LLD is town.

Look love, I signed your face up to be a bullet catcher

[GreyICE]

Our post in 21 was an RSV post.

However, there’s a reason why we haven’t moved our vote because we really haven’t found someone who we are solidly scum reading to the point to move it to a serious vote.

I have at least two players I’m townreading, but I’m keeping them close to my chest right now.

Right now for the most part everyone’s in a null pile and currently being sorted.

~R

Hmmm, well we must all keep our townreads close to our chest it appears. Presumably so when we beat our chest we hit them first.

So lets propose a compromise and band together on a wagon we both like. So who should we pick, and why is it xyzzy?

VOTE: xyzzy

[GreyICE]

Oh and apropos of nothing, I've realized I'm probably a miller. I will not be answering questions on this subject.

[GreyICE]

you did it didn't you

you picked Archer's Dog that pissed on the tree didn't you

Of course!

So xyzzy?

[GreyICE]

you did it didn't you

you picked Archer's Dog that pissed on the tree didn't you

Of course!

So xyzzy?

Depends. In your mind is he scum profiterring off of hebi being town and a wagon or is he scum attaching himself to a wagon as part of a bus to ensure he's not left out?

I’ll ask a better question - is he town?

[GreyICE]

you did it didn't you

you picked Archer's Dog that pissed on the tree didn't you

Of course!

So xyzzy?

Depends. In your mind is he scum profiterring off of hebi being town and a wagon or is he scum attaching himself to a wagon as part of a bus to ensure he's not left out?

I’ll ask a better question - is he town?

If Hebi's scum they are.

like to iterate, if Hebi's scum Xyzzy doesn't have the 3 posts they have this game. Simple as that. They enter and approach differently.

Mmmm. No. Join date. I think they approach it exactly the same.

[GreyICE]

Like, EXACTLY the same.

[GreyICE]

Nah, more like "my girlfriend feels bad that I'm hyper shoving her on page 5 of a mafia game I invited her to and I don't want to be the reason she quits mafia right after she rejoins mafia".

But also she's scum sooooooo

Why is Hebi scum?

I blame fferyllt. It’s really their fault.

[GreyICE]

I guess that's possible.

But if Xyzzy is town and Hebi is scum if we flip Xyzzy Hebi doesn't die for a while.

The inverse isn't the same. If Hebi is town we can course correct onto Xyzzy scum pretty easily.

Stick to your word. If you’re going to death tunnel death tunnel otherwise play mafia without the tunnel.

Because you’re playing this like a soft bus and that makes me unhappy. If you’re town it’s bad play. If you’re not town… I’ll entertain that possibility.

[GreyICE]

Are we supposed to assume you’re some sort of hive mind?

[GreyICE]

Because unless the scum are the borg, one of you can do one thing and one another. Do you strike you as the sort of person to coordinate RVS?

[GreyICE]

So a non-town claim.

Vote: Hebi

I will not go into a long explanation of why this is always, always, always, always the correct move. A brief summary:

- The moderator has not confirmed the existence of a non-hostile, non-town faction. There's no evidence it exists. There's a known non-town faction - it's Mafia. Occam's Razor.
- Fferyllt likes fairly vanilla roles. For instance their design document for Tarot Mafia, despite having an incredibly complicated picking procedure, has mostly "modified vanilla" roles: viewtopic.php?p=12857475#p12857475
- It's a mini normal, 13 players doesn't give much room for a non-town, non-hostile faction.
-

It's day 1, we're guaranteed not to eliminate town by doing this

The last one should be the only one that matters.

[GreyICE]

People who are questioning my request to be doctored: Why is that so bothersome to you?

I'm very likely to be shot, I'm very strongly townread and I've found and outed a whole unknown faction by day 1. Living to day 2 gives me a chance to aide the town even further.

Yet no one has given counter reasons why I shouldn't be protected or this shouldn't be done. Just generally claims of "not liking it"

so money where your mouth is time

Hell why not, I'll doctor you if I have one. Seems like a good move to me.

If the mafia want to shoot me night 1 after the only thing they know about my role being a miller claim, they can have at it.

[GreyICE]

eliminating hebichan here as policy doesn't give us useful info for day 2. if we later have reason to believe hebichan is lying scum, we can circle back around to that. if we eliminate town on day 1, that's obviously bad, but it gives us a wealth of information that eliminating a claimed survivor does not. the drawback of going into day 2 with less to work with is far greater than the "at least we didn't lose a town player" moral victory, especially because it doesn't stop us from getting closer to a scum win.

I want to just point at this and say "holy FUCK is xyzzy obvious scum" but to explain why this is pure horseshit, here we go:

First, hebi is very probably mafia. So

we have to eliminate her eventually

. Period. The Town WILL be eliminating her, so we will always be spending an elimination. Day 1 eliminations are the lowest information ones, not the highest one - using them on a probably mafia slot that is definitely not town is a great use.

Then there's the night phase. Yes, it exists. Hebi could have any role - rolecop, roleblocker, vanillizer, etc. Her role will not help the town. Her role will probably hurt the town. By eliminating her here, we give the

mafia

less information - they see no more claims, learn no more about who has what powers. And the mafia could very well be down a power role.

The information xyzzy loses is that he loses whatever information Hebi's power role might give his team, and he loses the information about any more claims from the day phase.

Holy Hell you right, voting someone else does give the most info in the flip to solve the game, as said b4 voting hebi is nai so we get 0 info in eliminating hebi

So when do we eliminate her? Day 2? Day 3? Day 4?

Make your case on why those are a better day to get a "NAI elimination". Because they're not.

[GreyICE]

Also. Do you have any idea how many scum fakeclaim third party?

You not only excuse your non-town play, now you can play non-town for the rest of the game. And you'll never be nightkilled, fancy that!

The only argument against that that xyzzy can make is "well if you claim third party town will just eliminate you" which is pretty bogus when

he's arguing not to eliminate her

[GreyICE]

Is that a threat to wagon xyzzy or another attempt to pin 3P factional membership to someone?

Oh day 2 we are wagonning the FUCK out of xyzzy.

[GreyICE]

GreyICE full claim next post please and ty, including any night actions taken.

Sure. I'm Weyoun Six, member of the Temporal Alliance. The first time I die, I stick around. I also have some part of my role that hasn't been revealed to me (my guess is Miller, since I'm non-federation). I have no night actions.

Do explain now.

[GreyICE]

Wait, our vengeful vigged obvious town rather than xyzzy? Goddamnit.

[GreyICE]

That is a terrible reason to ask someone to full claim.

Vote: LLD

[GreyICE]

Yeah, I think you're a motion detector of some flavor - maybe you roleblock someone and detect if they tried to take an action.

You saw a quick way to earn town cred after your "unexpected result", and also explain why you're not dying because "I have a weak power role ho ho ho".

We can accelerate that dying schedule.

[GreyICE]

How about today? Today is a good day to die.

[GreyICE]

Nah, I'm a town JOAT actually. I'll full role claim too, here.

I'm Dax, not any specific one, the Dax Trill Symbiont.

I can access one of my past lives at night, I don't know what the ability does until I choose it, then I get to pick the target.

Last night I picked Jadzia, and it was motion detector.

Yay JOAT it's the most scum of the fakeclaims.

Wee.

Well I guess it's better than "I'm literally not town guys"

How about some more votes on LLD people? I think 6 will do nicely.

[GreyICE]

Greyice is not a miller. We need to figure out why he said he was because his interpretation of the role he claims to have doesn’t jive with open setup knowledge

I literally told you why?

Is this some sort of a joke?

[GreyICE]

I want to leave hebichi alive so she can confirm to me in the night since I'm borg but you right, this is the best move, non-town is non-town

Unless we want to clean this up today. That's always an option I suppose.

[GreyICE]

Like my heart says vote Xyzzy they're obvious scum.

My head says Kawaii has claimed scum.

My ulcer asks why the vig shot black over either of these excellent choices.

Pedit:

Here's my deal.

I can't tell with GreyICE whether I'm just being frustrated because he and I have different mechanical views or if he's really scum because this terrible push on me is possible of coming from either of them.

I flipped scum yesterday. You don't flip me the day after I flip scum. You hold my leash and have me sniff shit out again and if I flip a townie then you consider it.

But GreyICE knows this and goes "eh"

which is frustrating me anyway

Oh get over yourself. If I don't think you're town, I'll flip you, I'm not playing by some horseshit unwritten rules.

[GreyICE]

Why would I think you bussed Hebi? It's clearly multiball unless you think that the night kill was a vig shot. And if you're a two person scumteam you'd know it was multiball and could "other scum" hunt.

As for respecting your capacity to play the game, your claimed actions and claim demand is bad town. So am I supposed to respect your capacity to play the game? If I am, then I should take this at face value - your move was scummy because you're scum. If I had no respect for your capacity to play the game I'd just be like "idiots be as idiots be".

Pretty fucking odd you're going back to your usual scum strategy of bemoaning how "GreyICE doesn't respect me" when I'm very clearly respecting you and not assuming you're an idiot.

[GreyICE]

Why would I think you bussed Hebi? It's clearly multiball unless you think that the night kill was a vig shot. And if you're a two person scumteam you'd know it was multiball and could "other scum" hunt.

As for respecting your capacity to play the game, your claimed actions and claim demand is bad town. So am I supposed to respect your capacity to play the game? If I am, then I should take this at face value - your move was scummy because you're scum. If I had no respect for your capacity to play the game I'd just be like "idiots be as idiots be".

Pretty fucking odd you're going back to your usual scum strategy of bemoaning how "GreyICE doesn't respect me" when I'm very clearly respecting you and not assuming you're an idiot.

My move wasn't scummy, and the fact I'm town and you're insulting me for the move is why I feel disrespected.

But I guess if you can't know my alignment that's hard for you to know. Like you're literally calling me an idiot but you don't know it yet?

Or you're scum but I don't think scum you tries this I guess.

Also are you really thinking this is multiball at this point?

Hebi has 2 other partners, that's 3 evil people with a STRICTLY evil win condition in a town of 13 players.

How much more evil can there be? At most 1 serial killer?

Hebi didn't have a night kill. And yes, I could easily see 2/2/1 if the 1 could be recruited at the cost of a night kill...

Although that's a darn good point. Should we just be eliminating Kawaii today?

Pedit:

GreyIce, did you read the sample town role pm during day 1?

In what universe would I do that?

[GreyICE]

Also, greyice, can you confirm your role name?

Weyoun, Sixth Vorta Clone of the Temporal Alliance.

And why would I read the sample town role PM, I have one of my own. Thanks for letting us know you needed to read the fakeclaim template though. Are you going to faff about on mechanics all day, or is there some actual town-like activity you plan to be doing sometime soon?

[GreyICE]

I requested the borg queen and seven of nine, and got neither.

Hey guys I have a theory.

[GreyICE]

I get that him walking away is fine, but his answer means a lot less if it is not a very quick reply.

Do tell us what it means

[GreyICE]

My theory is more like "what if half that statement was true?"

People tend to tell the truth. Even when that's a really bad idea.

[GreyICE]

Cool beans, so your posts were worthless by your own admission. Great job.

See, love, this is what I'll chalk up to an idiot being an idiot.

[GreyICE]

Cool beans, so your posts were worthless by your own admission. Great job.

See, love, this is what I'll chalk up to an idiot being an idiot.

be nice

This is nice. I'm town, I'm not gonna outright lie.

[GreyICE]

Like my heart says vote Xyzzy they're obvious scum.

as far as I can tell, the only thing I've done that you've said was scummy was have a differing philosophy about how to respond to a survivor claim. do you have any other basis for that at all?

We'll put it on your tombstone: "Caught for the wrong reasons."

Vote: Xyzzy

[GreyICE]

"I'd totally have done the same thing if I was town!"

[GreyICE]

okay, so to be clear, the answer to my question is no. good to know

Answers? You think you deserve to die with answers? After how you've played?

[GreyICE]

So uh, is Borg actually 3rd party or scum? A bit confused

"Scum" is a generic term for "anti-town faction" and the borg are an anti-town faction. There's probably also another one, given how that win condition was phrased, but it could just be a red herring.

[GreyICE]

Oh right mafia. I honestly forgot about this game a bit. Oops.

In my defense it's been a hell of a week.

Reading up.

[GreyICE]

I'm sorry, I've been really ill. I've been catching up at work and life... and apparently passing out around 6:30 PM. Sorry folks.

[GreyICE]

Well, I retract my last remark. Maybe LLD does need to have a stoner party, it seemed to help with catching hebi.

So I was roleblocked last night and my night action was refunded.

Does anyone want to claim that?

Is there some reason to out roles like th- why am I bothering, you aren't going to answer.

If someone claims they roleblocked me they can be interogated about it.

If NO one claims it, scum did it and it proves me town.

I was visited by the Archangel Michael last night, he confirmed me town because I'm fucking awesome.

No I didn't visit you, but no you're not confirmed town. Come on.

[GreyICE]

That being said.

Vote: xyzzy

[GreyICE]

And this is actually for the day 3 behavior before he comes in here and goes "oh my GreyICE hasn't caught up, he's still on me oh woe is me".

You really think LLD played a game with her roommate and one of her best friends for the first time in probably years and they both rolled scum and what they did is "Oh yes, I'm gonna throw you under a bus day 1." Like what about Hebi's day 1 play says that was what was happening? What about LLD's day 1 play says that was what was happening. That was clearly an "I know you too well, I know what you rolled, dammit."

Now you, you're not trying to determine people's alignments. Not then, not now. You're pushing things you think you can push.

Shoot her if you want her dead.