Matrix6 BP fix

[-Grey-]

	A	B	C
1	Town Bodyguard	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Goon
2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
3	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Goon	Town Tracker

I'm kinda keen on this one.

Bodyguard instead of bulletproof, and swap it with Jailkeeper to prevent a Follow the Tracker strat.

[-Grey-]

Bodyguard works well. But don't swap it and the jk.

That would just result in Follow the Tracker.

[-Grey-]

Follow the Tracker isn't too bad and BG dies when it protects.

It would still result in an inevitable early tracker claim that could impact newbies the way BP claiming does now.

[-Grey-]

In a newbie? Ohellno

[-Grey-]

Bodyguard is an excellent PR for newbies, because it teaches the importance of nuance by denying scum's chosen kill.

The importance of a well played bodyguard becomes obvious if they die instead of a townie that is pushing the right players.

Either way, though. I'm not particularly married to the suggestion. I just think UB is a bad idea for newbies.

[-Grey-]

	A	B	C
1	Town Cop	Vanilla Townie	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Mafia 1x Strongman	Town Watcher	Town Bodyguard
3	Town Doctor	Mafia Encryptor	Town Tracker

[-Grey-]

Town Jailkeeper and Town Cop is overpowered and Town needs something to counter it.
Grey's list isn't great because C and 1 are scumsided and watcher is a bad role that requires no scumhunting

1 might be a little, but no more than it already is.

C is fine.

Also, Watcher is offset by the strongman and encryptor, obviously.

[-Grey-]

the encryptor and strongman don't make watcher okay

Sure they do, if you think outside the "per game" box you're living in.

Some games, encryptor will swing it for scum. (Ditto strongman)
Other games, watcher will swing it for town.
Depends on the players.

Each one of those roles are powerful for their faction. It comes down to who best utilizes what they have.

[-Grey-]

C really isn't fine. It's a scumsided variant of Tracker/Doctor/Goon, which is already under 50% for town.

It's just a weaker version of doctor/cop/roleblocker.

[-Grey-]

1 is really bad. Scum get two shots at one power role

And that role gets a guilty on scum, so it should be countered by scum.

It's not like scum gets the name of the cop. It's up to the cop to play the game right and minimize detection until he gets a result.

[-Grey-]

Not worth the effort to argue.

I disagree (obvs).

[-Grey-]

Nobody can deny that this would be a fun little hand-grenade:

	A	B	C
1	Town Doctor	Town Cop	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Town 1-Shot PGO
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Bodyguard	Town Neapolitan

Or,

	A	B	C
1	Town Doctor	Town Cop	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Doctor
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Bodyguard	Town Neapolitan

I think Tracker is a pain in the ass role, personally.

[-Grey-]

Nobody can deny that this would be a fun little hand-grenade:

	A	B	C
1	Town Doctor	Town Cop	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Town 1-Shot PGO
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Bodyguard	Town Neapolitan

Or,

	A	B	C
1	Town Doctor	Town Cop	Mafia Roleblocker
2	Town Tracker	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Doctor
3	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Bodyguard	Town Neapolitan

I think Tracker is a pain in the ass role, personally.

I think the second one is close if you remove two of the mafia RBers.

Eh. I think just removing the center one would work if you're actually looking at two.

[-Grey-]

The balance for replacing Encryptor with Goon isn't too bad.

Replacing it with a Mafia Doctor (to mess with Tracker results and muddle clears) would be better IMHO.

[-Grey-]

Goon Doctor Tracker would certainly not be balanced.

[-Grey-]

Here's what I've been working on:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Encryptor
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Vanilla Cop	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

It gets rid of the potential for a safe way to claim a protected tracker and therefore neuters the bulletproof claim strategy. It may still happen but since we're no longer dealing with single PR setups it no longer advantages town.

Actually, it kinda does, in that it allows a PR to claim, informs the other PR what build it is (cop will know there is no doctor, jk there's no investigative - and will likely jail bp until it dies!), and requires scum to waste at least one night (maybe more if there's a jk) giving up their kill if they want to kill the bp, otherwise that player is confirmed town without a cc.

BP is crap in newbie games without a strongman.

[-Grey-]

Grey newbies don't need that kind of moonlogicy stuff just to fuck with results.

Removing tracker results as clears is not moonlogic.

Thinking it is says more about your thought processes than mine.

[-Grey-]

Here's what I've been working on:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Encryptor
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Vanilla Cop	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

Row three is toxic to scum.

I propose:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Neapolitan	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Doctor
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Jailkeeper	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

With no ability to be protected and simultaneously able to use their ability, the vanilla cop's results should be a little more useful, hence Neapolitan.

[-Grey-]

Goon Doctor Tracker would certainly not be balanced.

A large sample of newbie game data suggests you're very wrong.

I suggest the newbie game data suggestion is wrong.

[-Grey-]

The newbie experience would be better with Encryptor/Tracker/Doc.

Uh. No.

Adding day talk is not an alternative to muddling tracker results.

That's like firing off a nuclear warhead because you don't think C4 will bring the building down.

[-Grey-]

Okay then give them a goon instead.

2 goons vs 2 town PR's in both setups?

Seriously?

[-Grey-]

That's essentially what you're doing because scum doc doesn't really have a place in Nea/1-shot BP/scum!Doc
Like, if you just want to fuck with tracker results you might as well give scum a follower or a visitor?

Scum Motion Detector!

[-Grey-]

We don't have any real reason to suddenly blow everything up and add all these new roles. Just keep it simple.

When newbie games were first implemented, there was what... a couple dozen roles? If that?

Now, there are hundreds.

What's wrong with a little more flavor being added to newbie games to reflect the growth of the game?

[-Grey-]

Yeah, don't change anything except for adding direct moderator influence.

Brilliant.

[-Grey-]

Moderator dictating behavior via outlawing strategy, and you don't see the problem?

They'll wonder what other strategies are "forbidden" outside of the newbie queue.

Crippling the deductive process is not an answer to a structural weakness.

[-Grey-]

LUV's point makes a lot of sense from a certain point of view actually. Hadn't considered it as a fix really, but if they disallow trust tells or text of truth or whatever it's really the same thing.

I guess the only thing is if you care about the win-rates being closer to 50% and want to change it for that reason.

It's not even close to the same thing.

A trust tell isn't "game strategy". Text of Truth isn't "mechanics breaking".

Aside from that shit, there is no legitimate way to enforce it. How can you forbid the BP from claiming d1? You just can't. What do they say if they get wagoned? "Sorry, can't claim because people got fucking brilliant in a mafia discussion thread and talked out of their ass"?

[-Grey-]

Sure, they could say that.

Do we avoid reasonable and practical fixes to things on the basis of, "but this act does not fit *arbitrary category*!" or do we just go with reasonable and practical fixes that don't interrupt the smoothness of games?

Nobody here is criticizing neither reasonable nor practical suggestions.

Just the bullshit that's being spewed about censoring optimal strategy instead of fixing the actual problem.

[-Grey-]

The whole point of power roles is to game the mechanics to improve your odds of winning, so it's fucking stupid to give power roles and then dictate what can and can't be done with them.

If you don't want them used a certain way, either cripple the role or don't fucking use them.

[-Grey-]

Right, because newbies have zero interest in actual winning right LUV?

Getting slaughtered straight from the get go doesn't destroy their morale at all. And God forbid they actually try to win because some fucking dictator won't let them use what's available.

[-Grey-]

Cut this wood.

Here's a power saw.


Oh, but you can't plug it in.

[-Grey-]

Sure, they could say that.

Do we avoid reasonable and practical fixes to things on the basis of, "but this act does not fit *arbitrary category*!" or do we just go with reasonable and practical fixes that don't interrupt the smoothness of games?

Nobody here is criticizing neither reasonable nor practical suggestions.

Just the bullshit that's being spewed about censoring optimal strategy instead of fixing the actual problem.

It hasn't been confirmed optimal though. If it was, town would be winning a lot more.

Then there's no excuse for banning it since it's no threat.

[-Grey-]

The whole point of power roles is to game the mechanics to improve your odds of winning, so it's fucking stupid to give power roles and then dictate what can and can't be done with them.

If you don't want them used a certain way, either cripple the role or don't fucking use them.

[-Grey-]

Cut this wood.

Here's a power saw.

Oh, but you can't plug it in.

Use a handsaw.

Don't have one! That was in another column!

[-Grey-]

Sure, they could say that.

Do we avoid reasonable and practical fixes to things on the basis of, "but this act does not fit *arbitrary category*!" or do we just go with reasonable and practical fixes that don't interrupt the smoothness of games?

Nobody here is criticizing neither reasonable nor practical suggestions.

Just the bullshit that's being spewed about censoring optimal strategy instead of fixing the actual problem.

It hasn't been confirmed optimal though. If it was, town would be winning a lot more.

Then there's no excuse for banning it since it's no threat.

The thing being prevented is the broken and gimmicky experience that these games provide. LUV's way of correcting this addresses the problem and while it isn't logically or systematically perfect, it's a steaming pile of bullshit that I'm ashamed to be supporting.

FTFY

[-Grey-]

Cut this wood.

Here's a power saw.

Oh, but you can't plug it in.

Use a handsaw.

Don't have one! That was in another column!

It's an accurate portrayal of the facts.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

Them feel free to exit, stage left.

[-Grey-]

No, LUV is just a lateral thinker and people don't like lateral thinkers because to accept their ideas you must forgo old and time-honoured perspectives in favour of new ones.

That's a load of horseshit.

I don't approve of telling people what strategies they can or cannot use. It has nothing to do with whatever buzzwords you want to use.

There's no fucking point in having players at all if moderators are going to dictate how roles MUST be played.

Fuck players. Just make the moderators play it out since they're dictating strategy anyway!

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

Them feel free to exit, stage left.

Ah yes very good. If someone has a problem with a system that doesn't operate effectively, we should remove them rather than think about ways to make a system more effective.

Learn to read.

LUV had no problem with it at all.

[-Grey-]

Woman: My left turn signal is broken

LUV: Don't turn left.

rb: LUV is such a lateral thinker.

[-Grey-]

Okay, let's make a deal Grey. From here on out, everyone when they roll a PR, claims it in their first post. If you complain that's not how x role should be played, take a perma ban.

If they choose to do so, THAT'S THEIR FUCKING RIGHT.

[-Grey-]

Kinda... My... Whole... Point.

[-Grey-]

Okay, let's make a deal Grey. From here on out, everyone when they roll a PR, claims it in their first post. If you complain that's not how x role should be played, take a perma ban.

If they choose to do so, THAT'S THEIR FUCKING RIGHT.

Yeah, yeah. We'll see if you still hold this same belief when you're losing everytime you roll town because of it.

What you like to ignore is the concept of free choice.

Because the ability to make choices is inconvenient for you, you want to usurp that from the players

[-Grey-]

I'm thinking of the greater good. It's not just inconvenient for me, quite a lot of people have expressed dislike for the strategy.

And unlike your tyrant approach, OTHER people took the responsible route of fixing the problem instead of expecting everybody to stick their head in the sand and pretend it doesn't exist.

Even if your fairy tale horse shit was used, it isn't an actual solution. People would forget this garbage after a month or two and be right the fuck back here. So it's not even worth entertaining as a notion.

[-Grey-]

How would they forget if it's properly enforced?

The underlying cancer will still be there.

The whizz bang of your shiny turd of a suggestion will wear off, and people will forget.

Then one day, someone will bring it back up again, and we'll be RIGHT THE FUCK BACK HERE AGAIN.

[-Grey-]

I'm thinking of the greater good. It's not just inconvenient for me, quite a lot of people have expressed dislike for the strategy.

And unlike your tyrant approach.

ARE WE GONNA SEE GODWIN'S LAW IN ACTION

You seem to think there was only one tyrant in history.

For calling me sad, you're quite the hypocrite.

[-Grey-]

No, if it's properly enforced it won't. Bans can be handed out instead of force replacements.

I'm just going to call you Mao.

[-Grey-]

Banning players for using their roles to win a game.

Fucking wow.

[-Grey-]

No, if it's properly enforced it won't. Bans can be handed out instead of force replacements.

I'm just going to call you Mao.

AND HE DEFEATS GODWIN'S LAW ON A TECHNICALITY.

Like it?

I pulled that especially for you.

[-Grey-]

Why are you going so hard though?

You're basically saying this teaches optimal play (which has yet to be really proven) but at what cost? We are arguing it takes away from what mafia is suppose to be about.

The problem isn't strategic.

The problem is mechanical.

You're​ trying to address a mechanical problem by crippling strategy.

It's fucking stupid to the limits of infinity.

[-Grey-]

This is me as scum in my scum PT.

Me: So x is bulletproof. How do we buddy and pocket him?
Partner: Well he likes when someone does so and so and says these kind of buzzwords and phrases.
Me: Cool. So we just never night kill him then.

Not always a viable counter.

If he starts scumreading you and your partner, you're fucked.

[-Grey-]

It's fairly easy at least in my experience for scum to play around 1 confirmed town. Once newbies realize this, then what happens to your strategy?

The strategy doesn't even center on the BP. BP claim is only the first step.

The fact you don't know that disqualifies you from commenting on it.

[-Grey-]

It's fairly easy at least in my experience for scum to play around 1 confirmed town. Once newbies realize this, then what happens to your strategy?

The strategy doesn't even center on the BP. BP claim is only the first step.

The fact you don't know that disqualifies you from commenting on it.

Oh I know, I just don't care.

How many times have you caught scum with this strategy?

Why do you care, if it's, as you say, not an issue?

Why throw out horseshit suggestions about something you don't even care about?

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

[-Grey-]

Not worth chasing red herrings when you say that.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

IF IT'S THE LAST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

IF IT'S THE LAST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

IF IT'S THE LAST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

IF IT'S THE LAST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[-Grey-]

@rb: refer to 233 for his response.

[-Grey-]

Thanks. Glad to have your permission.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

IF IT'S THE LAST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[-Grey-]

Mao is such a hypocrite, saying it's the last thing that needs to be addressed and continuing to talk about it.

[-Grey-]

I'm just arguing that this strategy is the last thing that needs to be addressed in regards to Newbies.

IF IT'S THE LAST THING THAT NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED, SHUT THE FUCK UP.

[-Grey-]

ilu mhsmith0.

[-Grey-]

nancy has a rule in her first game not to shit post but there is no outrage over it, why?

TIL LUV doesn't know the difference between posts that advance the game and posts that don't.

[-Grey-]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

[-Grey-]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

[-Grey-]

Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.

I'm saying!

[-Grey-]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

[-Grey-]

Having a rule where people are outright not allowed to do a specific action that a player can reasonably decide to make while still playing to their win condition is frankly ridiculous. It gives a horrible impression of the site as one that can't balance their own setups.

I rather the site give off that impression than the one current site meta is giving off now.

Open games frequently have claim strategies. EpicMafia is built off of claim strategies. Acting like this is ruining the site is disgraceful.

I've never seen any claim strategy used on Day 1 in all the open setups I've been in since I've joined.

Another sign of your lack of experience regardless of your join date.

[-Grey-]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

I caught you as scum before as well in other games. I'm too lazy to pull them up.

Funny how you are trying to turn this into about my skill level when I bring up that I caught you by shit posting.

You may have voted me for doing something you don't like, but I guarantee it's the same shit I do as town because you can't read my actual scum tells.

Posture all you want, you're no Alisae.

[-Grey-]

If that's the case, why are things like shit posting which catches more scum than if should

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

I caught you as scum before as well in other games. I'm too lazy to pull them up.

Funny how you are trying to turn this into about my skill level when I bring up that I caught you by shit posting.

You may have voted me for doing something you don't like, but I guarantee it's the same shit I do as town because you can't read my actual scum tells.

Posture all you want, you're no Alisae.

You can't read me either

Either. Thank you for admitting it.

I'm not the one making unfounded assertions.

You are.

[-Grey-]

TIL LUV thinks posts that have zero game content are alignment indicative.

I caught you in 665 by doing it.

False. You caught me doing something I do as either alignment because you ascribed alignment to NAI behavior.

No I caught you by shit posting.

You can't even catch a cold.

Your voting history regarding me is atrocious. You vote me when I'm town and townread me as scum.

You should really stop trying to brag when you have no grounds.

I caught you as scum before as well in other games. I'm too lazy to pull them up.

Funny how you are trying to turn this into about my skill level when I bring up that I caught you by shit posting.

You may have voted me for doing something you don't like, but I guarantee it's the same shit I do as town because you can't read my actual scum tells.

Posture all you want, you're no Alisae.

You can't read me either

Either. Thank you for admitting it.

I'm not the one making unfounded assertions.

You are.

Salt.

Trash.

We're naming random nouns, right?

[-Grey-]

Here's what I've been working on:

Matrix6	Column A	Column B	Column C
Row 1	Town Jailkeeper	1-Shot Bulletproof	Mafia Goon
Row 2	Mafia Roleblocker	Town Cop	Town Doctor
Row 3	Town Vanilla Cop	Mafia Role Cop	Town Tracker

I am bumping this.

Row 3 remains garbage.

[-Grey-]

Backup 6 sucks.

The IC solution above is a possibility. Unlike the current BP setup, there's no guarantee an IC claiming d1 lives to d2. That alone will discourage mass claim.

[-Grey-]

I don't know how long this setup has been in effect but I like to think it was just a mutual understanding/unwritten rule to not do a strategy like this one. Obviously those people left or don't play anymore, so a window of opportunity opened up for someone to enforce it and we're currently seeing the results of that being left unchecked.

Translation: I want something implemented that I believe already existed at one point and failed hurr de durr.

[-Grey-]

IIRC RadiantCowbells came up with it

I'm just pointing out LUV's shit logic.

He's not letting facts get in the way, so I'm trying not to confuse him with them.

[-Grey-]

I don't play Newbies and it has nothing to do with the current setup.

^ Textbook sour grapes.

"My suggestion is being shat upon? I don't play Newbies anyway."

[-Grey-]

I don't play Newbies and it has nothing to do with the current setup.

^ Textbook sour grapes.

"My suggestion is being shat upon? I don't play Newbies anyway."

I'm far from salty. Your behavior towards me ever since I suggested it is the definition of salty.

I'm scum reflexive shit suggestion flamer.