Newbie 2114: Life Imitates Art...in Memes! -- End

[DragonEater70]

Woahhh

Finallyyyy

VOTE: bewolkt

VOTE: First Time

VOTE: Elpis


VOTE: Patchwork

Don't vote: KawaiiKame, all the SE's


Yeah starting RVS with a real random post. Please feel free to criticize my post.

[DragonEater70]

I just really suck at generating content in RVS

[DragonEater70]

Patch can probably tell you all about it.

[DragonEater70]

Don't vote: KawaiiKame, all the SE's

Why?

I like you so I'm not voting you.

[DragonEater70]

Don't vote: KawaiiKame, all the SE's

Why?

yeah, why?

VOTE: Kawaii

also, lol "generating content in RVS" is sad and baaad

Wait isn't the point of RVS to generate content? You scum or something?

[DragonEater70]

Also though, I think it would be fun to do real introductions. What do you like to do? What got you into mafia? Normally games just get real intense real fast, but I figure for the new folks it might be nice to get to know each other!

I like to write.
I loved mafia all my life, recently some of my friends made some mafia related memes, and then we decided to create a mafia group. Shortly after I came on this site.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Maestro

[DragonEater70]

lol I should've said "getting hung up on 'generating content during so-called RVS' is sad and baaad"

This is bc of 2 points

1. "Content" will generate itself during RVS and
2. "Content" is a silly word ppl use to mean "real shit" and/or content can be literally anything

IMO, DE's very first so-called RVS post is "content" in and of itself

Every single time ppl type a single word in this site it will tell you a bit about them/their alignment (if you're in-game), that's why I think the phrasing is poor and a tad silly and not necessarily Scum

however

if you look at with my opinion in mind, try to wonder who would try to start a game saying "meh, this first little while is what I suck at so don't be too hard on me if RVS is weird/I am not generating much 'useful content'"

Happy to engage

VOTE: DE70

So 2 things;
1. I never said "don't be too hard on me". I actually invited people to criticize my posts. I'm glad you did because now we're getting into "real shit" as you call it.
2. I was absolutely aware that my first post was content. That's exactly why I made it, I wanted to engage other people.
3. I guess it's 3 things, not two, but: I like your engagement tbh. I think Aeronaut on the other hand is not serious enough and ia too fluffy, and deserves a vote for attempting to buddy all the other players.VOTE: Aeronaut

[DragonEater70]

Hi Ircher.
You might want to add some reasoning to your vote. And also say it's E-2.
Thanks.

[DragonEater70]

Mod, I voted Aeronaut.

fixed - f

[DragonEater70]

Morning Patch (it's night where I am).

[DragonEater70]

Oh nah, I just was trying to be friendly. Not to mention though, a lot of times people reveal things by how they introduce themselves. I always feel like the more we can get people talking, the easier it will be to figure out who's scum.

That's fair enough, though I don't really have anyone else to vote right now so I'm gonna stay on you for the time being.

Also though, I think it would be fun to do real introductions. What do you like to do? What got you into mafia? Normally games just get real intense real fast, but I figure for the new folks it might be nice to get to know each other!

I like to write.
I loved mafia all my life, recently some of my friends made some mafia related memes, and then we decided to create a mafia group. Shortly after I came on this site.

I like to write as well. I think we used to have a writing group on this site, we should bring it back.

What was your mafia group like? Like, you got together? Or over discord or something? Regardless, that sounds like a blast

Cool, seems like a lot of us like writing. What kibd of writing do you do? I do mainly short stories.

My Mafia group is actually on WhatsApp, as in we play mafia on that platform.

I don't feel confident about it, but it's RVS, yeah? It's my first game so I'm still trying to pick up on just how low reason the first round votes should be

Nah man you are doing well. It's highly unlikely that we will go for the lim on any of the leading wagons on this stage, so you may vote anyone for any reason. But you should probably have some reason, otherwise we won't get anywhere.

[DragonEater70]

VOTE: Aeronaut

Again, I would like to hear your reasons for this vote.

Is there a way to unvote and change your vote, actually? I don't love the silent swap to voting against Aero the moment they were asked to be involved in discussion

You could use the unvote tags.

Woahhh

Finallyyyy

VOTE: bewolkt

VOTE: First Time

VOTE: Elpis


VOTE: Patchwork

Don't vote: KawaiiKame, all the SE's


Yeah starting RVS with a real random post. Please feel free to criticize my post.

1. This feels stilted. Are you self-conscious scum?

Don't vote: KawaiiKame, all the SE's

Why?

I like you so I'm not voting you.

2. What makes you like Kawaii?

lol I should've said "getting hung up on 'generating content during so-called RVS' is sad and baaad"

This is bc of 2 points

1. "Content" will generate itself during RVS and
2. "Content" is a silly word ppl use to mean "real shit" and/or content can be literally anything

IMO, DE's very first so-called RVS post is "content" in and of itself

Every single time ppl type a single word in this site it will tell you a bit about them/their alignment (if you're in-game), that's why I think the phrasing is poor and a tad silly and not necessarily Scum

however

if you look at with my opinion in mind, try to wonder who would try to start a game saying "meh, this first little while is what I suck at so don't be too hard on me if RVS is weird/I am not generating much 'useful content'"

Happy to engage

VOTE: DE70

3. Nice backtrack. You nearly fooled me, but I can see right through you.

Voting for someone brand new just because they don't have airtight knowledge of site meta seems... A weird way to go

Why "weird"? Why not call it out for what it is: suspicious?

Hi Ircher.
You might want to add some reasoning to your vote. And also say it's E-2.
Thanks.

4. Nah, I'll pass on the reasoning.
5. It's not common on site to announce E-2 votes.

I don't feel confident about it, but it's RVS, yeah? It's my first game so I'm still trying to pick up on just how low reason the first round votes should be

You're doing great! Keep it up!

Also, consider my RVS vote on ircher a serious one at this point.

@Ircher do you feel like joining us?

Joining you at what? Voting myself? I think I'll pass.

Is there a way to unvote and change your vote, actually? I don't love the silent swap to voting against Aero the moment they were asked to be involved in discussion

You can just vote someone new to change votes. If you really want to unvote, use unvote tags:

Code: Select all

[uv][/uv]

VOTE: Maestro

This post is a bit weird. Not necessarily suspicious. Are you simultaneously attacking 3 different people?

I've numbered your points for ease of answering.
1. Nope, I am self conscious town who enjoys goofy, sometimes scummy, openings.
2. Nothing in particular, maybe just their name.
3. Does this mean you scum Maestro? Then why did you vote Aeronaut earlier?
4. Why? Sayong the reasoning helps the game get going.
5. Idk, last game I played we did do it.

[DragonEater70]

Well, his first two posts were naked votes, which I guess is alright in RVS. When I poked him, the post he made immediately after is what bothers me. He asks a lot of questions, but not ones that are leading a where. For example, asking dragon if they're scum. Asking dragon why he likes a player, even though that answered a few posts later. His jump onto Maestro felt really unnatural to me, and mostly just something to look like he's taking a position.

I don't know, something I always look for in games is someone who is trying to look productive, but isn't actually doing much, especially if they just got called out for it. I also am more apt to push him now that he's mentioned he doesn't want to share his thoughts. That is someone who will be hard to read down the road, and so I'd like to try right now to get a good grasp of whether I think he's town or scum.

Your points are extremely valid. The best way to find scum in my experience is to look for people who are either not contributing at all, or just pretending to contribute.
I also hate the idea of not sharing your thoughts.

I also think it's pretty interesting that you are refusing to elaborate on things in a newbie game. Feels like the town motivated approach is to want to really flesh out your thoughts so people who are new to the site meta will get what you mean.

I disagree. It's a perfectly acceptable and widespread play style to be conservative with one's thoughts. You're imposing your vision of what town should do on me rather than thinking about what town actually does.

.. not really? i think saying thoughts = more posts = more discussion = more contribution = more townhunting = more scumhunting = good

Yes.

To his credit, Ircher is actually right that there are many players on here who just never give reasoning and just kinda shitpost or naked vote their way through. I just have never thought that was a particularly pro-town play style, but of course people are entitled to it

I like you.
UNVOTE: Aeronaut

To his credit, Ircher is actually right that there are many players on here who just never give reasoning and just kinda shitpost or naked vote their way through. I just have never thought that was a particularly pro-town play style, but of course people are entitled to it

many players doing it =/= good though, right?

Agreed.

[DragonEater70]

My townreads are probably Aeronaut and then Patch and Elpis, in no particular order.
The rest are all null.

[DragonEater70]

Hi Aureal!

[DragonEater70]

What do you think of Ircher? And what do you think of me and Maestro?

[DragonEater70]

i think my trs are
dragon as top town - lining up with meta, they do feel a bit awkward in his first post i agree but that's mirroring his play in our other newbie and they feel very towny
aero - i like him and his play SO FUCKING MUCH he has good takes on play etc etc maybe this might just be personal bias but oh well
elpis - not sure why they're so high, but mostly just because of the vibes. i like the way they post, it seems like it's coming from a towny perspective. i also can't tell if their profile picture is undertale or just pixel art elpis if you see this please clarify because i'm like,, going insane of it istg
maestro - lower than aero and elpis because i haven't seen much of their play yet, but i like the way they post too. maybe i'll come back on this later

It's undertale inspired pixel art

As for TRs (Town reads, I am assuming)
I feel pretty null about dragon? I don't quite know the meta, but they did have a somewhat odd post?
Aero I feel mildly suspicious of, but I also think that might just be a sense of paranoia, I don't honestly think they've done anything to deserve those feelings.
patchwork feels very towny, I feel like it'd surprise me if they were scum, maybe also just vibes though.
maestro originally was my top scum thought, but after doing some rereading, I feel decidedly neutral.
Ircher, while not the most polite in their responses, was relatively succinct in their thoughts, and didn't lend towards action that could've gotten someone killed, I think. maybe slightly above null.


bewolkt and kawaii are also null for me, hoping they post some more

Reagrding my odd post: I was making an intentionally odd post to get reactions, because I like getting good content out of people early rather than having to wait for it.

As to the rest of your readlist: so if I'm understanding you correctly, everyone is neutral in your eyes right now except Patch? Or I guess you suspect Aero but think it's an invalid suspicion?

[DragonEater70]

Cool, seems like a lot of us like writing. What kibd of writing do you do? I do mainly short stories.

Mostly short stories, and a lot of planning for much longer stuff. I hardly ever finish it though, I've got this killer ADHD so I usually get very bored after a few chapters. I few ideas I've gotten pretty far though! Mostly horror stuff, except for this one really fun far future thing. That was more just like, multigenred I guess?

Cool btw.
can we take this to some offtopic thread?

[DragonEater70]

What do you think of Ircher? And what do you think of me and Maestro?

Ircher's probably aggressively trying to generate content by giving hot takes. You're probably okay, so you should be wary of Maestro. These folk should know better. I'm not the most open with my thoughts and I've played with enough people who are waaaaaaaay worse to know that this is a losing strategy.

I like your take on it and think you are pretty towny.

Reagrding my odd post: I was making an intentionally odd post to get reactions, because I like getting good content out of people early rather than having to wait for it.

I'm not completely sure I understand the logic behind this. Would you not get good content out of people just by posting genuine posts instead of making intentionally odd ones? And don't you think this can backtrack on you?
I agree with others that I feel more confident on players that reason their thoughts and try to move the conversation forward, but would also add that I find also suspicious when a player starts toying with others, making "goofy" posts because that ends up making myself unsure about their reasons and more difficult to read tbh

Maybe there's a misunderstanding here? I was specifically talking about my first post which is also what I thought Elpis was talking about. I don't see a way to share my genuine thoughts on my first post because I didn't have any genuine thoughts on anyone at that time - my post was the third overall, coming after two posts from you about image formatting. There's nothing to analyze at that point so I tried to make a post worthy of analysis.
I genuinely think I succeeded, too, because we have had much more serious content here on pages 2-3 than some other games had by page 8.
And it did start with people attacking my post, then attacking my attackers, etc.

[DragonEater70]

I also think it's pretty interesting that you are refusing to elaborate on things in a newbie game. Feels like the town motivated approach is to want to really flesh out your thoughts so people who are new to the site meta will get what you mean.

I disagree. It's a perfectly acceptable and widespread play style to be conservative with one's thoughts. You're imposing your vision of what town should do on me rather than thinking about what town actually does.

.. not really? i think saying thoughts = more posts = more discussion = more contribution = more townhunting = more scumhunting = good

A lot of people can put good thoughts into fewer posts and not necessarily more posts will lead to more contribution or mean that person is townhunting more. Good posts + good thoughts = good

Agreed, the problem was Ircher refused to give any reasoning whatsoever, less so the number of posts.

[DragonEater70]

Very very very tentative, unfinal, prone to change readlist:

Townier than town - Aureal

Townie - Patch

Townie I guess - Elpis

Different levels of Null:
Kawaii
Aero
Ircher

Not really scummy but def not townie: Maestro

Scummy ig - no one

Really scummy - no one

[DragonEater70]

I forgot bewolkt somehow. They are null.

[DragonEater70]

I have a fair bit of catching up reading-wise to do. Just messaging to acknowledge I'm playing the game.

Hey bud, you were replaced.

[DragonEater70]

The only one that has changed slightly for me is Elpis. I went back to take a read, and I do feel like they are fence sitting a bit more than I'd like. I guess now that I'm saying it though, I get being nervous as a newbie and not wanting to make too big of an impact right away. I just would like to see more hard stances from them.

I like your take here, and in general most of your page 6 and 7 posts feel very towny to me.
I think you town, and in rereading Elpis's ISO I may have misjudged them with my townlean.

The only one that has changed slightly for me is Elpis. I went back to take a read, and I do feel like they are fence sitting a bit more than I'd like. I guess now that I'm saying it though, I get being nervous as a newbie and not wanting to make too big of an impact right away. I just would like to see more hard stances from them.

also yeah i was gonna comment on the scumlean, but this makes sense
i feel like it's not really deserving of a +scum take imo, their anxiety feels very towny to me because that was basically exactly how i played in 2112 and their posts seem like they come from town, at least to me

As an objective outsider who played with you on 2112, I disagree. Elpis's posts don't give the same vibes as yours from that game, at all. Like in that game you were givingoff a vibe of sincere anxiety, but aldo engaging and scum hunting, whereas here Elpis just feels like they're fence sitting, and aren't actively scum hunting.

[DragonEater70]

This could be an unpopular idea, but I'd personally like it if everyone who hasn't given much of a reads list yet, could provide a quick one. It would be a great thing to look back on on day 2 or 3 after a few flips

I support this idea very much. Here's my uodated readlist:

Very very very tentative, unfinal, prone to change readlist:

Townier than town - Aureal

Townie - Patch, Aero

Townie I guess - no one

Different levels of Null:
Kawaii
Bewolkt
Elpis

Not really scummy but potentially so: Maestro, Ircher

Scummy - no one

Really scummy - no one

[DragonEater70]

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

[DragonEater70]

I'm finding this game semi hard to read/focus in on, I will be back with my thoughts

When?

[DragonEater70]

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

I just feel it's a bit difficult to have such strong opinions so early in the game, but when I've questioned some things (like your "goofy" entrance or patchwork's association of more posts=better) it was basically because I thought those things were suspicious. But I will give a more detailed list now, also because I won't be able to post that much during the weekend:

Spoiler: readlist

Leaning town

Aureal - Her thoughts seem to be coming from a town perspective and I agree with most of their reasonings
patch - they come off as genuine to me and I like many of their thoughts but tbh there's also a part of me that is a bit puzzled by their way of reasoning. Too many posts which makes it a bit difficult for me to keep track of what their stance is at any moment

Unsure

Ircher - has contributed a bit more than others, and even though I can understand why he might be a bit more conservative, I don't feel I can read him better until he expresses some more thoughts. I don't have the feeling that his 164 is particularly townie and would like him to explain a bit more for example from where does his read on Maestro come from
Aero - they seemed pretty okay to me at first. Also I felt his 91 was in good faith to warn others about a potential lim early in the day. But what has pinged me is the way they've backtracked on Ircher. I don't see what in Ircher's reaction convinces him that is a good to be more conservative (not saying that this is bad by itself, but I am very surprised that Aero bought this after he took a strong stance on this topic)

Null and need more from them

Elpis - feel genuine so far but still need more from this slot
Maestro - I don't see why he's getting so much heat. Many of the points he's made I agree with them so waiting to see more of his thoughts on the game to develop a more grounded read
Kawaii - not much

Main suspect

Dragon - I feel his content has been mostly pushing the more inactive slots and some reactive posts to other player's content, so i'm not sure why he is accusing me from scumlurking. His readlist don't say much to me since I haven't see the reasons behind them. I also don't see from where his read on Maestro comes from or why for example he moved Aero from townread to null then townread again

I guess I could see your questioning as implying suspicion, sure. Regarding your readlist I don't see anything exceptional, except your analysis of me which is really puzzling. It's so puzzling in fact that I decided to do an ISO of myself to see if I understand what you mean (spoiler: nope).

So you say I have mainly reacted and barely done anything except reacting to accusations and pushing inactives. So first off I pushed you and that's proactive:

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

Here's a readlist I made, unprompted:

Very very very tentative, unfinal, prone to change readlist:

Townier than town - Aureal

Townie - Patch

Townie I guess - Elpis

Different levels of Null:
Kawaii
Aero
Ircher

Not really scummy but def not townie: Maestro

Scummy ig - no one

Really scummy - no one

In the post below I did have to explain myself but regarding a very specific post. I am not generally on the defense this game but my #8 post did get quite a bit of attention and I wanted to explain it. Still, my vote here on Aero is not reactive at all but proactive:

lol I should've said "getting hung up on 'generating content during so-called RVS' is sad and baaad"

This is bc of 2 points

1. "Content" will generate itself during RVS and
2. "Content" is a silly word ppl use to mean "real shit" and/or content can be literally anything

IMO, DE's very first so-called RVS post is "content" in and of itself

Every single time ppl type a single word in this site it will tell you a bit about them/their alignment (if you're in-game), that's why I think the phrasing is poor and a tad silly and not necessarily Scum

however

if you look at with my opinion in mind, try to wonder who would try to start a game saying "meh, this first little while is what I suck at so don't be too hard on me if RVS is weird/I am not generating much 'useful content'"

Happy to engage

VOTE: DE70

So 2 things;
1. I never said "don't be too hard on me". I actually invited people to criticize my posts. I'm glad you did because now we're getting into "real shit" as you call it.
2. I was absolutely aware that my first post was content. That's exactly why I made it, I wanted to engage other people.
3. I guess it's 3 things, not two, but: I like your engagement tbh. I think Aeronaut on the other hand is not serious enough and ia too fluffy, and deserves a vote for attempting to buddy all the other players.VOTE: Aeronaut

In conclusion, Bewolkt, I think your analysis is a pile of bullshit. You are not contributing and you are reading me as scum based on false premises.

Also, @Bewolkt, you are still voting for dragon. Do you still think they're scum? I liked your discussion with them.regarding reaction posts, but I'm curious about what you're thinking of them and others after that interaction.

Just posted a readlist with some thoughts on him and others. I am happy with my vote but I to vote forward let's VOTE: Elpis

So you just accusing me of pushing inactives, and saying that I am your main suspect, but now you are pushing a null slot? How does that make sense at all?


I think bewolkt is pretty scummy atm and hooe you guys join me in voting them.

P.S. I think I did explain my reasoning for the Aero reads but if not: I liked their overall vibes and reasoning. Not sure tbh why I put them into the null category afterward, maybe I just second guessed my read and felt it wasn't based on a lot of substance, but their later play continued the same town vibes from earlier.

[DragonEater70]

As an objective outsider who played with you on 2112, I disagree. Elpis's posts don't give the same vibes as yours from that game, at all. Like in that game you were givingoff a vibe of sincere anxiety, but aldo engaging and scum hunting, whereas here Elpis just feels like they're fence sitting, and aren't actively scum hunting.

yea but they feel anxious and that's how i felt like the entirety of 2112

Okay interesting, I don't get the same vibe from their posts tbh, but if

you

do then I guess you do.

[DragonEater70]

Sorry for the wallpost btw, it's mainly the quotes that make it big so hopefully it's not too hard to read.

[DragonEater70]

Okay.

[DragonEater70]

What do you think of Kawaii?

I think Kawaii needs to post

Great.

I will have to IS0 Elpis

You still haven't?

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

I'm guilty of the same, why you voting Bewolkt?

I have to choose one of you to push and right now it's bewolkt.
As the game prgresses I will probably vote for you unless you post more (also please ISO Elpis already).

[DragonEater70]

yeah dragon can you explain yoruself on that

I was looking for a null slot to push, noticed bewolkt's scummy lurking, voted them. I wasn't really concerned with which slot is the optimal push tbh but I'm pretty sure that Kawaii is the runner up actually, and migth vote for them if I think bewolkt doesn't deserve my vite any longer (right now I think bewolkt still deserves my vote).

[DragonEater70]

Also, @Bewolkt, you are still voting for dragon. Do you still think they're scum? I liked your discussion with them.regarding reaction posts, but I'm curious about what you're thinking of them and others after that interaction.

Just posted a readlist with some thoughts on him and others. I am happy with my vote but I to vote forward let's VOTE: Elpis

Can you clarify what you mean here by "to move forward"? What was wrong with keeping your vote on Dragon if you are still happy with it? What do you expect voting Elpis will accomplish here that makes it better than keeping your vote on your scum read Dragon?

Also, I thought I should point out:

Ircher is currently at E-1, which means one more vote would hammer and end day 1

Personally, I'd prefer to at least wait for this new person to replace in or for a little more input from others before we actually eliminate someone.

This is tai to me, not wanting the day to end without substantial discussion helps town a lot, not much info can be made on fast eliminations outside of vote flips, slight chance exists that this is scum saving scum but with everything Aero said this is highly unlikely

Do you think there would be a major difference in how this game has played out so far if Aeronaut did not make that post?

Obviously agree with the point directed at bewolkt as I said in 194, also think Ircher's point about the game probably not playing out differently is valid. I am still townreading Aero but not for that specific post.

[DragonEater70]

Hi, sorry for being away for so long. Probably should've requested V/LA. I'm back now though.

I did realize I was doing this, but at the time, I was actually totally unaware that the vote limit was 5 and then things would immediately end. If I'm completely honest, the vote was moreso intended to be an expression of current suspicion, and not actually a definitive, "I want this person dead and gone" thing. I'm recognizing now that it shouldn't be used in that manner, and I will revoke it for now, especially with how close things have gotten to hammering.

UNVOTE:

No, you're fine using it like that, at this point especially that's what's expected. I'm making a point though that it CAN lead to someone getting eliminated, so some caution is warranted when vote counts start getting high.

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

Interesting choice there. What do you think of Kawaii?

I feel they are also very uncontributive but it kinda feels within their meta and they are a newbie unlike bewolkt. I still would like to get a lot more from them, and honestly I will vote them next unless they posted something really townie while I was away.

[DragonEater70]

I also acknowledged your readlists, so I don't know why you feel the need to mention them again. I said that they don't give me the reasons why you placed ones higher than others so I can't see why do you townread or scumread other players. Can you explain why you sr Maestro? Also I still find a bit puzzling that Aero went from your top tr to null, but it's fair, I guess our reads are very variable and not very strong right now.

Maestro - it's not a real scumread but the vibes they give are off. I couldn't read anything particularly townie in them despite their posts being a lot more forceful than Kawaii's, for instance.

Last, you mention the following 2 posts as examples of you being proactive. I had read both as what I categorized as you 'pushing the more inactive slots': for Aero you praise the engagement of Maestro but say of Aero's that 'is not serious enough' and for me that 'none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player'. So I thought of both as attempts to make us engage more and contribute to the game. It's true that for Aero you say that he's attempting to buddy others, so I'll give you that

Yeah fair, I see how you could see it as pushing inactive slots but at least on Aero it was less the activity and more the buddying vibe.
Fine, I get why you would perhaps suspect me. Is there anyone else you currently suspect?

[DragonEater70]

yeah dragon can you explain yoruself on that

I was looking for a null slot to push, noticed bewolkt's scummy lurking, voted them. I wasn't really concerned with which slot is the optimal push tbh but I'm pretty sure that Kawaii is the runner up actually, and migth vote for them if I think bewolkt doesn't deserve my vite any longer (right now I think bewolkt still deserves my vote).

So you voted bewolkt over Kawaii because they were both lurking about the same amount to you. You kept your vote on bewolkt after bewolkt posted reads on everyone because you don't think bewolkt's scumread on you is warranted. You still think Kawaii is being too lurky. Is that a fair assessment of where you are?

Yes.
I think I might change to Kawaii though, let me just finish catching up before I make up my mind.

[DragonEater70]

dragon are you omgusing lol

Nah, I was legitimately annoyed with his analysis, but after he explained it I kinda get it I guess.

If anyone would like my thoughts of anything, do feel free to ask and I'll try to consolidate, but as it currently stands, I am unsure how to comment further on the current lineup we've got, and I can't say I've got the experience yet to truly understand a good way to uhh, I think the term was "scumhunt" or something?

IDK guys, this post kinda feels like Elpis is trying to overplay how newbie they are. Like the thing about not knowing what scumhunting is called? For real?
But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Elpis, how much experience do you have with Mafia and with similar games?
And have you read the explanation of what the RVS is good for? Because voting and wagoning are designed to generate reads. Doing them and observing others' reactions is a good way to find out who is scum and who is town. Would you like to give it a go?
Until you do, I will VOTE: Elpis

yeah :/ this entire game has been stagnating a ton and i don't really know what to say to get it going

IDK, I actually thought there was quite a bit of critical thinking in the first few pages, we just need to continue doing more of it and we'll get some juicy reads.

i think the aero vote was rvs i cant remember putting a vote on him UNVOTE:

yeah :/ this entire game has been stagnating a ton and i don't really know what to say to get it going

So rather than unvoting, why not put your vote somewhere useful? It would help keep the game moving.

Agreed.

Okay people, let's do some thinking and talking about it!

Ircher link me a relatively-recent scum game of yours please - if you don’t or if you’re all “conservative” in your next post I’ll just go find one myself and consider it a scumclaim

For any Newbies wondering, the post somebody made about it being proTown to post more and not be “conservative” with one’s thoughts is 100% apt and while I’m not ever advocating for “forcing” others to play like me… as Aero said it makes you seem like scum (and kinda a butthead) so I feel no qualms voting you for

those

reasons and encourage you to be like… an asset to us all instead of an impediment?

That’s what it comes down to

If you think you can solve the game all by yourself, or just by giving Town the bear minimum amt of insight into your thoughts or motivations… yeah you can eat a hammer vote today for that if nothin changes, I think lol it’s as good a reason as any

Can I vote you too? I want to vote you too. This is so lazy. Is that really what you want to teach newbies, to just eliminate people who play a way you don't like dealing with? Great way to lose games you didn't need to.

Okay great, I'm being agreed with that it's too early to be putting people at E-1 and also we're putting Aeronaut at E-1???? Sigh.

UNVOTE:

In the first post, Aureal says that she wants to vote Maestro as well as Aeronaut. Half a day later, Aureal unvotes Aeronaut. Aureal has not put a vote on Maestro, or anyone, since then. What does this tell you?

Interesting. Why is Aureal talking about herself in the third person?
Anyway, if we are talking about Aureal in the third person, then I think that Aureal might be a bit scummy in this situation, because she's basically not pushing anyone or scumhunting anymore. Of course, she might just feel lost and desire more engagement from others, to be able to form opinions. It's a tough dilemma.


Note: I know I said I'll vote Kawaii, I still think we need to pressure them, but Elpis is scummier ATM.

[DragonEater70]

like it's actually pretty townie of her to point out her own inconsistency and tell everyone in the thread to rip it apart

I know which is why I'm not voting her.

[DragonEater70]

Good.
VOTE: Kawaii

[DragonEater70]

I probably sound very lenient here, and I know I am. TBH I just don't have any solid scumreads right now.

[DragonEater70]

Wait, no. Patchwork, Dragon, and I. That's 3, right?

Correct, fixed.

It still shows 2 for me.

[DragonEater70]

Hi, sorry for being away for so long. Probably should've requested V/LA. I'm back now though.

Interesting choice there. What do you think of Kawaii?

I feel they are also very uncontributive but it kinda feels within their meta and they are a newbie unlike bewolkt. I still would like to get a lot more from them, and honestly I will vote them next unless they posted something really townie while I was away.

I find citing meta and newbieness here very strange. I'd call them both newbies. Do you really feel like finishing one game makes one not a newbie? And did you meta-dive bewolkt as well?

Interesting. Why is Aureal talking about herself in the third person?
Anyway, if we are talking about Aureal in the third person, then I think that Aureal might be a bit scummy in this situation, because she's basically not pushing anyone or scumhunting anymore. Of course, she might just feel lost and desire more engagement from others, to be able to form opinions. It's a tough dilemma.

no, she's probably just trying to be a good SE in a newbie game lol

Technically I snagged a newbie slot just before my fourth recent game here ended. But that's over now so henceforth I shall be an SE!

Unless I take a bunch of years off and start over again, anyway.

Sorry, I was actually thinking Bewolkt was one of the SE's this game, my bad. Also thought Aero was a newbie. I should be paying more attention

[DragonEater70]

DragonEater: Confused by Dragon, something feels off, I don't like that it took so long to vote me when beo was active and I wasn't, happy I was finally voted, I need to IS0 Dragon in depth, seeing conflict with beo

I'm sorry but I don't vote people based on activity level, I vote them based on contribution level and scumminess.
On the same topic: I'm currently voting you because, whilst I still think it's within your meta to be hesitant, I really don't like that you don't have any scumreads or anyone you pushing (though tbh I also don't have very strong scumreads this game so IDK).
I would love to see you ISO me and others because I want to hear more from you regarding suspicions and so on.

[DragonEater70]

I even f-ing posted explaining why I wouldn’t be around end of this week and/or much this weekend; just bc nobody read/understood it… lol

Aureal’s 270 is laughably forced, over-justified, and the part about Scum being the inactives makes no sense but *thumbs up*

Honestly Maestro does give valid points here but his tone in writing these posts sounds exactly like a scum who's frustrated for being suspected for the wrong reasons.
atm gonna VOTE: Maestro

[DragonEater70]

This puts him at E-2.

[DragonEater70]

My solve is Maestro, then one out of Elpis and Kawaii.

[DragonEater70]

Kawaii is town and the wagon is bad, there’s some content for ya to chew on

I would actually love if you could expand on the reasoning behond this. I don't want to just chew on the content, I want to be able to digest it.

[DragonEater70]

And tbh there's no much substance to chew on right now, so if you could add more it'd be great.

[DragonEater70]

So, if I'm honest, I actually thought Bewolk v Dragon comes out with Bewolk looking a lot better. Right now, it kind of feels like you're putting in a lot of effort into discredit this scumcase on you, and less effort into pushing others. Your reads list had nobody in the scumpile. A lot of townreads and no scumreads really pings me, because calling someone scum is more likely to make them question you, and will force you to have a really solid case on that.

I also think it's sort of interesting that you mentioned that Bewolk is "reading [you] as scum based on false premises", which would imply you think he's town making a mistake. A few lines later though, you'll telling us that you think he's definitely scum.

Well I generally assume people are town unless proven otherwise, so yeah I said bewolkt was reading me as scum even though it did feel potentially fabricated. He dis later explain it and I can see how it came about as a legitimate read.

I really want to push others but I am havong a hard tome getting solid scumreads this game. I mean now I am starting to get them solidified, with Maestro looking more than moderately scummy in behavior, and Elpis and Kawaii both being a bit scummy for their fence sitting.

Ok, other general thoughts from all that:

- Bewolk/Cloudy | Slight townread on 185 for me. I like his take on Dragon specifically. He is unsure of dragon's motivations or why he's scumreading people.
- Dragon's push on Bewolk just seems really strange to me. It feels more defensive than anything.
- Kawaii wagon is really bad.
- Elpis' posting about how there's nothing to talk about is pinging me.
-

I'd say the most organic wagon that's grown is Maestro's. It's taken some real fight to get people to get on, and I don't feel like Maestro has done a whole lot to warrant him being town. Like I said though, I really can't tell if he's just disinterested or not. The comment about Aureal and Inactives felt... completely out of place. I also like this Maestro wagon quite a bit because I'm decently sure 2 of those 3 are town.

If I'm looking at how wagons have formed, Ircher's grew incredibly quickly, mine grew decently quickly, Kawaii's grew very quickly. I'd say that the odds of scum being on those wagons is pretty high.

A sincere question here, why are you sayong that if a wagon formed quickly there's more likely to be acum on it? I am thinking on late RVS stage town is likelier to just randomly get on wagons quickly for silly reasons then abandon them.

[DragonEater70]

okay yeah i've mostly not been keeping track of this game, my bad
sorry about that, i definitely should be focusing more on this
for me aureal/bewolkt feel the most towny to me. aureal is +town for pointing out her own inconsistency and trying to promote discussion generally, and i like her active push on aero. it's a little strange how she didn't really follow up on the "thought exercise" to me, but maybe she's just a little busy, and i'll give her the benefit of the doubt.
bewolkt v dragon feels very tvt to me, in my opinion. i will second the take that bewolkt absolutely does come out looking more towny, though. their push on dragon feels like it's out of genuine doubt, rather than scum finding someone to prey on through a sort of reverse confirmation bias.
then there's aero. i still like his play. more of a vibe read than anything else.
then there's dragon, hovering Sort Of above null. unsure how to read him, he comes off sort of the same as he did in 2112, a little eccentric, a little unsure of who he should quite trust.. it feels towny, but i also could just be reading him wrong. i'll probably have to iso him.
then there's kawaii. they haven't done anything at all, really, their posts are unremarkable, and they haven't been contributing. it's annoying, but i can only put them at a null for now.
actually i'm gonna be honest i haven't been paying attention to ircher or maestro at all but i don't like how maestro's not doing anything

What are your thoughts about Elpis?

[DragonEater70]

My solve is Maestro, then one out of Elpis and Kawaii.

Why Elpis?

VOTE: DragonEater70

They are constantly fence sitting, may have faked not knowing what scumhinting is, said they actually do know what it is but then haven't done any. Plus the bit of Aureal's prompt for them to do critical thinking which they ignored.
They might be a total newbie, possibly, but it just feels a bit too much. I want to see them scumhinting and participating.

[DragonEater70]

On the other hand your vote of me kinda feels genuine and towny.

[DragonEater70]

...are... are you all are legitimately ignoring the post I made where I basically said I was IRL super-busy/semi-VLA end of this week/this weekend, then ignoring the second one I made pointing back to the first, saying I'm Scum that's lurking and "getting upset at being sussed for the wrong reason," then saying I'm disinterested,

Hi dude sorry if I made you upset but I never said you were lurking. I was definitely not accusing you of being scummy for being VLA. I was saying that your reaction to these accusations felt scummy, and tbh it kinda feels even moreso with this part:

then ignoring the second one I made pointing back to the first,

saying I'm Scum that's lurking

and "getting upset at being sussed for the wrong reason,"

Because you see, noone (or at least no one but Aureal maybe) said you were scum that's lurking. So it feels really weird that you are saying we did.

However I know how it feels to be titled while playing this game, and I think it's fair to give you a day or two to cool off. I don't think anyone should hammer Maestro before they have time to cool off and respond properly.

[DragonEater70]

My solve is Maestro, then one out of Elpis and Kawaii.

this is legitimately the most foolish thing Dragon has posted so far

which is an accomplishment in and of itself

Nobody can or should be "solving" the game on Day 1, certainly not you and certainly not with the big blob of nothign that has been half the playerlist's posts so far

I totally agree, however I have seen people saying this a lot on this site and I thought it's like shorthand for preliminary solve/guess, rather than an actual attempt at solving.

I really want more content out of people, believe me, but for some reason it ain't happening and the best way to secure content is to push people, even if they're the wrong people.

Also, I'm really sincerely glad that your opening night went well.
I

[DragonEater70]

I thought you removed your vote to avoid having Aero at E-1 like you said. I hadn’t thought before about why you didn’t vote anywhere else tbh but it makes sense that if you’re arguing that the reason for elimination should not be playstyle, then you’re not going to sr Maestro because his playstyle is focusing on the people that do not contribute that much.

What leads you to say Maestro's play style is focused on people who don't contribute that much?

His post #87

Maestro has also basically not contributed anything since that post. So I don't know how to take that seriously. There's no indication he even knows I'm in this game, that's how little he's given us. I've been trying to give him some time since he did indicate he had something going on this week, but it's Sunday afternoon now, over three full days since his last post. If I'd known prods don't happen on weekends in this game I don't know if I'd have been so lenient but I think I've wasted enough time waiting now and I'm just going to VOTE: Maestro.

As for the not voting him earlier thing, it was a combination of things. I unvoted to avoid Aero being E-1 and didn't think to vote someone else right away since my focus was on avoiding the possibility of a quickhammer. After a little while I remembered what I'd thought about Maestro, but decided to hold off a while to see if anyone poked me about it. Nobody did, so I decided to use it to poke other people for opinions; and came to the conclusion that our scum are probably not very active/aggressive, or have already decided they don't want to bother trying to cast shade on me. Which also leads me to be more willing to vote Maestro here.

Dragon, I will be as kind as possible when I say you are not practicing adequate reading comprehension. You're wrong. Aureal may not have said

OUT LOUD IN THOSE EXACT WORDS

that I was Scum lurking, but this entire post is calling me out for inactivity or "not being very active/aggressive" and she votes me. And some BS about them not knowing how prods work? What the fuck else do you call this?

Yeah IDK about the prod thing, I did say that Aureal did call you out on lurking but nobody else did. I don't think you were lurking tbh, just didn't like your reaction. I can see how this reaction could've come from a frustrated town player, but it felt, at least initially, as a frustrated scum reaction.
I'm leaving my vote on you for the time being but I'm definitely not locking you in as scum.

[DragonEater70]

She also ropes everybody else into her choice to vote me, now, as opposed to sooner, by saying "welp nobody called me on it and I was oh-so-worried about a quickhammer, you'll have to forgive me, fellow-Towny-friends, for not actually following through on what I've been saying in my posts with my votes/actions!"

like, FUCKing hell.

Read.

Between.

Words.

Understand meaning.

Profit in social deception game!

TBH I forgot about that part but it is a legit reason to doubt her motivations. I will ISO her later on today and see what I come up with.

[DragonEater70]

vote Aureal, why don't you - the cognitive dissonance is astounding

VOTE: Aureal

actually actually done for the night, blame a long poop and thanks for the dialogue Dragon

Not sure what that means, but sure!
Always happy to engage other players.

[DragonEater70]

Point 5 it was.

[DragonEater70]

Also point 1 actually

[DragonEater70]

Ok, other general thoughts from all that:

- Bewolk/Cloudy | Slight townread on 185 for me. I like his take on Dragon specifically. He is unsure of dragon's motivations or why he's scumreading people.
- Dragon's push on Bewolk just seems really strange to me. It feels more defensive than anything.
- Kawaii wagon is really bad.
- Elpis' posting about how there's nothing to talk about is pinging me.
-

I'd say the most organic wagon that's grown is Maestro's. It's taken some real fight to get people to get on, and I don't feel like Maestro has done a whole lot to warrant him being town. Like I said though, I really can't tell if he's just disinterested or not. The comment about Aureal and Inactives felt... completely out of place. I also like this Maestro wagon quite a bit because I'm decently sure 2 of those 3 are town.

If I'm looking at how wagons have formed, Ircher's grew incredibly quickly, mine grew decently quickly, Kawaii's grew very quickly. I'd say that the odds of scum being on those wagons is pretty high.

I don't fully understand what makes you so confident that you would fully label me as scum, but I do actually mostly agree with everything else here. I'd like to hear your thoughts on why

He didn't label you as scum though?
If I understand correctly, "ping" means to give a slight feeling, not a full read.

[DragonEater70]

I thought you removed your vote to avoid having Aero at E-1 like you said. I hadn’t thought before about why you didn’t vote anywhere else tbh but it makes sense that if you’re arguing that the reason for elimination should not be playstyle, then you’re not going to sr Maestro because his playstyle is focusing on the people that do not contribute that much.

What leads you to say Maestro's play style is focused on people who don't contribute that much?

His post #87

Maestro has also basically not contributed anything since that post. So I don't know how to take that seriously. There's no indication he even knows I'm in this game, that's how little he's given us. I've been trying to give him some time since he did indicate he had something going on this week, but it's Sunday afternoon now, over three full days since his last post. If I'd known prods don't happen on weekends in this game I don't know if I'd have been so lenient but I think I've wasted enough time waiting now and I'm just going to VOTE: Maestro.

As for the not voting him earlier thing, it was a combination of things. I unvoted to avoid Aero being E-1 and didn't think to vote someone else right away since my focus was on avoiding the possibility of a quickhammer. After a little while I remembered what I'd thought about Maestro, but decided to hold off a while to see if anyone poked me about it. Nobody did, so I decided to use it to poke other people for opinions; and came to the conclusion that our scum are probably not very active/aggressive, or have already decided they don't want to bother trying to cast shade on me. Which also leads me to be more willing to vote Maestro here.

Yeah, I understand what you mean. But maybe they were just away? I'm curious about how you feel about Maestro now that they've come back.
And about the last paragraph: don't you think town should have picked up on it as well?

I personally think that town should have picked up on it more. That is a very weird post from Aureal tbh. More on her later when I get time to ISO her.

[DragonEater70]

Finally had the time to do a sweet Aureal ISO analysis:

97 - I still think it's probably a townie post, but honestly the reaction to Aero not unvoting is a bit exaggerated. In my limited experience E-1 on D1 is not very dangerous and nobody is going to quickhammer.

101 - very townie

102 - I actually don't like this post at all. What was there to beware about regarding Maestro? Their attitude? Also feels like a possible attenpt to pocket me.

118, 152 - goes back to strong townvibes.

161 - Aureal is actually saying that you shouldn't call anyone out for inactivity at this stage. Which is very weird because they do exactly that ater on.
Another thing on 161 is the discussion about Elpis feels about artificial. Like is it actually important why Elpis put the third vote on someone? It kinda reads as an attempt to create an opening for a later push. BUT I have to say I haven't actually seen a lot of scum doing this (creating an opening for later pushes), and it's not like Aureal is super experienced or something, so it could just be paranoia.

202 - again it's kinda weird that they are sayong Elpis should be careful with placing a third vote. But I can definitely see town acting this way, too.

231 - this is such a weird post. I don't see how it's protown, at all, but on the other hand it would be very stupid for scum to point out their own inconsistencies.

257 - kinda NAI, possibly a bit townie.

270 - this post is just really off, IMO. First, voting Maestro for something that was really NAI and they said earlier was irrelevant. Second, justifying the fact they haven't voted Maestro earlier by giving the reasons they are voting Maestro now. Like, huh?


---

So I really don't know about them. They have a ton of very townie posts (I pointed them out but didn't critique them as much), and in the other some weird posts that could be explained as either very new town or very experienced mafia. And the problem is I don't think Aureal is either of these things (very new or very experienced), so it's kinda hard to judge.
I think a fair rating for them now would be a mediocre townlean.

[DragonEater70]

also yeah aureal is giving some red flags, idk how i didn't notice that but ill iso her when i have time

I just did, you more than welcome to agree or disagree on any point I've made.

[DragonEater70]

2. Why aren't you paying attention to me? Do you really have no thoughts on my alignment?

I know this wasn't aimed ta me but tbh you are probably the hardest olayer to read this game, exceot maybe Kawaii.

[DragonEater70]

So I really don't know about them. They have a ton of very townie posts (I pointed them out but didn't critique them as much), and in the other some weird posts that could be explained as either very new town or very experienced mafia. And the problem is I don't think Aureal is either of these things (very new or very experienced), so it's kinda hard to judge.
I think a fair rating for them now would be a mediocre townlean.

EBWOP:
Maybe not the best phrasing. Null with a slight townlean would've been better at expressing my thoughts.

[DragonEater70]

yeah i mostly agree with your assessments. for me, aureal's more null but i do agree that there are ups and downs to her posting. tbh i think maestro is town so aureal could swing either way, but imo i'm just leaning towards tvt for maestro/aureal. maybe it could be t/w and i'm wrong

If it's T/W, who's the wolf?

[DragonEater70]

Okay interesting. I'd like to get Ircher's, Kawaii's, and Elpis's reactions to this first, but I think I might agree with you, and we might need a new wagon. Here's what I'm thinking:

Town: Aureal is consistently critiquing/contributing with conviction, specifically calling out Aero with not unvoting at E-I, same with calling out town with putting Aero at E-I, I like saying it's too soon to go against anyone inactive, the critique of DE voting beo and not me, same with calling herself out with not voting Maestro, only thing I make of this is a change of mind/lack of follow through, failing to advance this is nai but everything she said is tai, I like she's wanting the thoughts of everyone to fight stagnation in #234
Elpsis feels town, the attitude, the defense of neutrality explaining why she doesn't vote on emotion/tone alone in #169, unvoting when realizing how close Aero is in E-I, having the same all in town read on Aureal as me, wanting me/beo to post, I like the vote on me to up my activity, everything Elpsis does feels genuine town, especially in intent, feels like an emerging town

Town-Light
Aero, feels friendly and engaging, I do like the back-and-forth with Aureal, being willing to change his mind, this open dialogue is something I like, agreeing and disagreeing feels pretty naturally town, being affable is a dangerous skill to have if Aero is scum, not unvoting at E-I is something that moves Aero down as town in my eyes but it's not enough to classify as scum, feel it's a mistake, the thinking feels town but the perspective feels different, I want to know why Aero lists Elpsis as minor scum

patch, pretty lively/engaging with town, wants to contribute, I like the vote on me to encourage activity, this is an initial impression, I need to iS0 patch in detail so Ik the place they in, but they feel town

beo- the meat of content is #185, I like the reads but I do want to know what specifically he agrees w/ Maestro, I'm assuming the anti-conservative play thing, I'm not with beo in voting Elpsis but it feels like it was to advance the game state in place of pushing

Null:
Maestro/Ircher, the dispute is something I haven't read in depth, all Ik is Maestro called out Ircher with the conservative playstyle and Ircher defended the conservative playstyle, my thinking is time and place, it's good to be conservative sometimes, Maestro's aggressive callout against conservative play was questionable but pretty nai, feels like a clash of how to play than anything, giving them both null

DragonEater: Confused by Dragon, something feels off, I don't like that it took so long to vote me when beo was active and I wasn't, happy I was finally voted, I need to IS0 Dragon in depth, seeing conflict with beo

Did I miss anyone?

No scumreads. At all. Unless "confused by Dragon" means a scumread?

i think my trs are
dragon as top town - lining up with meta, they do feel a bit awkward in his first post i agree but that's mirroring his play in our other newbie and they feel very towny
aero - i like him and his play SO FUCKING MUCH he has good takes on play etc etc maybe this might just be personal bias but oh well
elpis - not sure why they're so high, but mostly just because of the vibes. i like the way they post, it seems like it's coming from a towny perspective. i also can't tell if their profile picture is undertale or just pixel art elpis if you see this please clarify because i'm like,, going insane of it istg
maestro - lower than aero and elpis because i haven't seen much of their play yet, but i like the way they post too. maybe i'll come back on this later

It's undertale inspired pixel art

As for TRs (Town reads, I am assuming)
I feel pretty null about dragon? I don't quite know the meta, but they did have a somewhat odd post?
Aero I feel mildly suspicious of, but I also think that might just be a sense of paranoia, I don't honestly think they've done anything to deserve those feelings.
patchwork feels very towny, I feel like it'd surprise me if they were scum, maybe also just vibes though.
maestro originally was my top scum thought, but after doing some rereading, I feel decidedly neutral.
Ircher, while not the most polite in their responses, was relatively succinct in their thoughts, and didn't lend towards action that could've gotten someone killed, I think. maybe slightly above null.


bewolkt and kawaii are also null for me, hoping they post some more

Even worse. They kinda suspect a few people but then they take their words back and Null everyone they suspected. Extreme fence-sitting.

This Kawaii wagon is really bad

I agree that it's not good, but I feel a bit like I was pushed to vote on people I didn't think were scum for the sake of "pushing things along" so I did so. I will undo that now since Kawaii has been posting more

UNVOTE:

I wonder who Elpis does think is scum, because it doesn't seem like they think anyone is.
I kinda let Elpis off the hook earlier because they are so new, but this is not a good justification honestly. If you look at IcetFeelsPain's ISO in Newbie 2112, you will see a lot of newbie tells, and many of his scummy actions could be excused as being newbie, but in the end he was scum. I think the same logic should apply to Elpis. They are a good D1 lim until they town it up and stop fence sitting and start reading and pushing scum.

[DragonEater70]

I wonder who Elpis does think is scum, because it doesn't seem like they think anyone is.
I kinda let Elpis off the hook earlier because they are so new, but this is not a good justification honestly. If you look at IcetFeelsPain's ISO in Newbie 2112, you will see a lot of newbie tells, and many of his scummy actions could be excused as being newbie, but in the end he was scum. I think the same logic should apply to Elpis. They are a good D1 lim until they town it up and stop fence sitting and start reading and pushing scum.

i agree on this, do you want to go for an elpis vote?

Sounds fine with me but I still want Maestro's no-longer-tilted response post, preferably when the pressure's still on.
You know what, I have an idea.
I will VOTE: Elpis. I am also going to

FoS: Maestro

. This means I am spiritually voting them, and will return my vote to them if needed.

[DragonEater70]

Ircher, literally spend more than 15 minutes writing a post so I can feel like you're engaging in good faith. It's all any of us have been asking for, I feel like, and you being obtuse about it is extremely off-putting. Aero, Kawaii, Dragon, tell me I'm wrong on this. Why are we all still just giving Ircher a fucking pass here?

I am not sure. Earlier in the game I would've definitely agreed with you on this, mot sure what changed my mind. Maybe I'm just not concentrating enough on Ircher. Gonna ISO them later.

this is why i think maestro is town

I could see it.

feel that if they were town, or scum, they would be acting the same way right now, and I'm a bit intimidated by that information. Regardless, I think their views have been largely things I agree with, and I would classify them as town

First of all, nice overall post. I like your reads overall.
Second, I really disagree with the point I quoted. If you feel this behavior could come from both town and scum, you should put them firmly in the null category.

Followup, Mastro's posts, while not entirely invalid, are frustrating to process due to aggressive tone as usual. I don't feel that I can make a logically sound assessment at this moment.

I can understand that I guess.

[DragonEater70]

Ughhh Aureal I saw your post #398, I might respond to it properly later because formatting long quotes on the phone just sucks, but I am inclined to believe / agree with most of what you said.

Also wanted to post my PoE but then realized that none of the options feel like they could be scum together. I need to look into this a bit more.

[DragonEater70]

Before I vote Maestro and put them at E-1, I have a question for Kanna:

Your opinions on Elpis, Bewolkt, Patchwork? You've omitted them from your readlist.

[DragonEater70]

Also wanted to post my PoE

Go ahead, it doesn't have to make sense atm

It does. The whole point of process of elimination is that it's based on logic and atm it's very illogical.

[DragonEater70]

i've missed a few people as i'm too tired to go on. will analyse them tomorrow.

Oh I've missed this.
I'll change my vote to Maestro as soon as Kanna finishes their readlist (I don't want a hammer before they do), unless there's a sudden game changing post from anyone.

[DragonEater70]

votes Ircher here and says Aero is "fine"

but offers no context for either

of those really - if voting Ircher because of Dragon, say this

at this point was when I stopped caring about

patchwork's tendency to offer small, helpful posts useful for Newbie purposes but devoid of any useful in-game information whatsoever

- I thought going into this that pw was the one I had seen most often doing this, it is often a common tactic from Scum to appear "helpful" even if they're...

not doing anything helpful to the gamestate, they're just being "nice" or giving small tips

about the site meta or the little buttons Newbies need to get used to using (also they dropped a "post 69" joke, what are we, 12 years old?)

I'd argue that none of these is SAI (Scum Alignment Indicative) for Patchwork. In fact, I am going to quote two recent games in which Patchwork did these things (or worse):

Spoiler: A Selection from Newbie 2113

ok just gonna post some questions so we can get some knowledge about the players

1 - pronouns? (some people don't have them listed)
2 - prior experience with mafia? (including derivatives of mafia)
3 - are you gay?

1 - they/them
2 - played on discord and did mafia.gg during the pandemic, mostly fell out of mafia post-2021. decently experienced though, i know most of the terms.
3 - yes

HOLY SHIT THAT ONE PERSON WITH THE PROFILE PICTURE OF RED??? BASE DBASED BASED

I kinda think patchwork's entrance was a bit scummy too

UNVOTE:

"based red pfp" is scummy???

VOTE: KawaiiKame dunno what's going on with the "they voted herta" thing

I kinda think patchwork's entrance was a bit scummy too

UNVOTE:

"based red pfp" is scummy???

I didnt like the kawaii vote

i voted them because i thought they were buddying (in rvs, which is.. yeah, kind of stupid now that i'm looking back on it)

ohh it's not buddying my bad wrong term
correct term would be "chainsaw defense"

i thought they were buddying

Explain

"i thought" implies that i no longer think that and was wrong + didnt i literally explain.

gonna echo that

also readlist coming soon

lol am i seriously at e-2
so far the only reasons are "thought herta/kawaii were partnered" and "fluffposting in rvs" and both of them are pretty sad
though to be fair the tr reasons are just as sad

The fluffposting accusations would

maybe

vanish if you actually posted a readslist like you said.

see, i'd do that, but i really don't have the time to actually analyze everyone's play. soon doesn't mean immediately, it means soon for a reason.
also, the fluffposting accusations are pretty dumb because last time i checked, someone voted me for a "fluffy entrance"... i entered in rvs.

like if i say "i tr herta because of what they did in this post", it doesn't explain anything. like it just says.. what they did? it doesn't explain why i find their play especially towny/scummy, what i liked about it, etc. i don't rlly like long posts but if you're gonna be making a point it should at least be thoroughly explained

pedit: okay
here's a rough and dirty readlist for the time being, mostly based on gutreads
people who idk how/am unable to read go in null
(also skittles and dion are jumping all over my read list, ill analyze later)
herta
bbt
hadrian
-
empathice
black
kawaiikame
dion
skitter

pedit 2: didn't say i didn't have reads. but i'd rather be able to analyze thoroughly and finalize some reads rather than having to rely on my faulty ass memory. also you assume i've just been on mafiascum the entire time lol, i just responded to everything and caught up before going to do work, i'm not just sitting in the topic waiting for people to respond

Basically, a lot of fluff (some of which I didn't even include), a readlist with no explanation of reads, no real scumhunting - AND THEY WERE TOWN

Spoiler: A Selection from Newbie 2112

tbh gonna second the opinion on dragon guy
bad vibes but i know for a fact it's supposed to be nai so :/
not too sure how to advance the game bcz literally nothing's been going on and there's still some people who just Haven't posted

VOTE: OMIGRON

@patchwork: are you saying you think it’s NAI or you think it’s scummy but have been led to believe what others have said about it being NAI?

a bit of both tbh
like it feels

off

to me and my gut instinct is telling me there's something wacky going on but my rational brain side is shaking its head and telling me that it's supposed to be NAI
does that make sense

my gutread is mostly based on the retraction of the inherently scummy thing & his behavior in a few posts after
like it just doesn't feel right imo but i know for a fact both town and scum don't want to come off as scummy & scum would probably do it in a more subtle manner (but that's WIFOM so :/)

VOTE: IcetFeelsPain
Have you played mafia before? And if not, are you aware that not advancing out of RVs and making nonsensical posts will get you voted out?

also there's this one other guy who hasn't posted at all, what happened to them
i was voting them earlier but forgot their username lemme check

actually gonna retract my vote because it's very likely they think we're still in RVS or something and i don't accidentally want to be part of the cause of a quickhammer which is always objectively bad UNVOTE: IcetFeelsPain

Also I think people are too wary of wifom instead of going with Occam’s razor as a guiding principle.

Wifom only really holds credence when people use it as a defence or use it to attack someone else in like a preplanned scenario (eg following an NK). Third parties questioning the validity of a read due to wifom is not really very helpful since the nature of wifom means there are two equally valid explanations.

also yeah you're right, using wifom as a reason to doubt my own tr was bad
because it still just means everything about dragon is completely NAI and doesn't contribute at all

like are you trying to throw shade about how i'm scum or what

like vox is so

charismatic

and while it Feels towny i literally cannot tell if its a genuine tr or not

roden readlist pls
i dont care if its gutreads or backed up with quotes or whatever but anything works

also icet i hope it's not just me but in all honesty you feel like you're trying to gamethrow every second and idk how to feel about it

do keep in mind i am absolutely awful at town/scumhunting so
but my hangpool for today is (icet, roden, comet)
tbh i doubt icet and nk are paired, and im also gonna echo icet's opinion that nk and vox aren't paired
roden and comet literally arent active so i can't comment on them but they're the most scummy out of.... everyone
still skeptical about nk though so not gonna worry about them for now
icet remains in hangpool as a viable option because they feel very sketchy

?

What makes you think I've been inactive?

you posted only during RVS

This one they're scumhunting a bit more, but there's also a lot of fencesitting. And in this one they are ASLO TOWN.

[DragonEater70]

Nah, this feels like at this point I will have to drag people kicking and screaming into reading my posts with more than 5 brain cells working, taking my outbursts seriously without thinking it's a scumclaim, and/or not trying to talk over my/line up my miselim, as both Kanna and Aureal have done separately.

I am claiming PR. You should all wait until my replacement gets in, and stop listening to Aureal/Kanna just because they're perky/coddling and you don't think I'm being nice enough. Cheers.

You being replaced out? RIP. Cheers

This is an out of game influence and we shouldn't discuss it.

[DragonEater70]

Ayyyy how's it going! Let's take the votes off my slot, it's town, I am in the business of finding scum!

Early reads are Dragon leaning town and Aero leaning town, bewolkt seems scumy, but I'll keep reading, feel free to give me yall's tldr version of stuff, but I'm gonna read the past pages, that's more reliable

Greetings! Thanks for replacing in!

[DragonEater70]

Could you confirm your slot's PR claim?

[DragonEater70]

I guess I'm just feeling like you'd have to be pretty stupid to claim a PR in the setup as scum.

why do you think this? isn't it pretty common practice to claim pr as scum to draw out the town prs?

I mean, maybe it is these days. When I was on the site a few years ago before my hiatus it wasn't. Logically it seems like you *could* claim a PR to draw out other PRs, but especially on day 1, it would be pretty counterproductive. It's essentially a scum claim if you're easily condradicted, so it feels like a dumb thing to do unless it was some crazy final gambit

regardless of how dumb you may think it is, you ignore me, and literally let scum deal with me n1,
I find it interesting people are flat out ignoring why I think patch/bewolkt are exactly a team?

(I had no clue maestro cased patch, my stuff is different)

like yo, I’m a whole new person! how about we ignore the person who claimed pr then left, I’m here! let’s have some fun and find scum? not that hard.

I have 3 people I am CERTAIN are town cause scum never has openings like they had, nor plays like they’re playing, it makes the poe pretty easy, then I look at reactions amongst remaining players, that’s “how I conviniently had a solve in 30 minutes of showing up”

genuinely love how I’m Kanna’s only sr? really? as scum I play like this?

Who are your three locktowns?

And agree, let Andante exoress their reads and opinions independent of Maestro.

[DragonEater70]

Dragon I think you’re town, what are your reads looking like?

Will answer this when I get home, there's been two replacements since I last had time to concentrate on the game so I want to do a bit of an in depth reread before saying my reads.

And what are your thoughts on a patch/bewolkt scumteam?

Honestly an intriguing idea, this hasn't crossed my mind at all. I will have to do their combined ISO and see if I can see what you're seeing.

[DragonEater70]

To your second part I didn't jump to vote Maestro after your readlist when I had already expressed in 323 before you entered the game that I was already finding his behaviour scummy. I said I would wait to see his thoughts as he promised and because he keep going with the same and not giving anything I voted them

You're misunderstanding Kanna, they made a point in your favor about how if you were Maestro's scum partner you wouldn't have voted them, but you did and rather quickly.

However with Andante's arrival I'm inclined to think the slot is not so scummy, and this invalidates the point Kanna made.
Do you agree with that, Kanna?

[DragonEater70]

Btw I really love both Andante's and Kanna's participation level and critical thinking, gives a lot more to work with than earlier.

[DragonEater70]

feel that if they were town, or scum, they would be acting the same way right now, and I'm a bit intimidated by that information. Regardless, I think their views have been largely things I agree with, and I would classify them as town

First of all, nice overall post. I like your reads overall.
Second, I really disagree with the point I quoted. If you feel this behavior could come from both town and scum, you should put them firmly in the null category.

Elpis could you please answer this? Thanks

[DragonEater70]

I'm here, sorry, I woke up and had a totally head empty no thoughts day, and to some extent I blame my sleep schedule. I'm trying to catch up currently--

I saw a few posts remarking that my expression of trying to let folks know that I might be feeling off was, in general terms, "suspicious because it was trying to cast judgement off myself rather than cast it on others" which seems silly. Why would I not clarify why something could be perceived as wrong, and why would I not want to make sure people understand my rationale? Being town isn't JUST about scumhunting, it's about communicating and making sure people know what you're saying and doing. If I exclusively targeted others and never backed up or answered thoughts about myself, I would probably be cast out, and then town would have one less person in their favor. I just want that to be out there, because I feel that anyone with that line of thought should really recognize why it doesn't work.

As for you, Dragon, let me rephrase that aspect of my analysis. Their views, largely, have been views that I agree with, when it comes to doubts on other players, and general perspectives. If I didn't agree, I at least understood, and I respected that about them. However, that sense of flat expression about their views on things felt like something that either town or scum would provide, and so it ended up being useful, as well as possibly suspicious. I think that if their views on things had run contrary to mine, I may have considered them scum, but because they ran parallel, I felt they were more towny. Does that make sense?

It does thx

[DragonEater70]

I'm about to sleep again, abysmal schedule, hoping to fix it soon.

Kanna has views I agree with, and views I'm conflicted over. I want to have a solid basis on their position, but I just honestly don't yet. I think they appeal to me from an emotional perspective, but logically I don't agree with some of their views, namely the confidence of dragon and patch as town. It does feel like a strongly emotionally driven perspective, which I do admire outside of this environment, but inside of it, I'm not quite sure if it functions as well as I would like it to. I want to say Null-Town for now, but I hope to see continued analysis that doesn't fall heavily within an emotional trend, if that's alright? I don't want this to be taken poorly, as I genuinely respect emotional analysis as a trend. However, I would argue that in a purely text based environment, you're losing somewhere in the range of 70% of communication of expression, which makes that style of approach struggle in some respects.

As for Andante, I'm still reeling a bit from your immediate entry into a full solve on your part. I recognize there are 21 pages of forum post to go through alongside it, but it feels like you could be making an extremely over the top confidently bold attempt to shift blame from yourself onto the two generally expressed next highest candidates, and I guess I just don't fully agree with your assessment. Patch I can understand wanting to have heavy suspicion for, I feel similarly, but Bewolkt just hasn't seemed terribly scummy to me thus far? If you could point out the posts that make you feel strongly about your views here, I'd like to see them.

Forgot to mention. I don't feel comfortable making an analysis of Andante yet, but I also don't trust the PR claim.

It doesn’t matter if you trust it or not? we don’t lim pr claims day 1, plus if I’m scum go find my partner and ask me about them, it’ll give you interactions to read when im dead, but “I’m not comfortable making an andante read yet, and i don’t trust the pr claim”

SO WHAT? I have plenty of content… who cares about the claim? want to say anything about the team read i have?? can you see them being partnered? why/why not?

Frankly can't.
I can't see Patch being scum. Maybe I'm just biased.
But I will say this:
Before you replaced into the slot the two scummiest were Ircher and Maestro, but I really like both of the replacements as town. Which makes it impossible for me to even start PoE-ing a scum team.
Which basically means I

know

I am wrong wuth one or more of my reads, and that could well be Patch.
if your theory is corrrext we should go for bewolkt anyway, which I feel has kinda faded into the background again once the oressure disappeared.

[DragonEater70]

Pressure*
VOTE: bewolkt

[DragonEater70]

If you think maestro/andante claimed PR as scum to out the town's PRs why do you think then that it is best that she fully claims so that the town PRs are outed?

...Good point, I want to know the same

I am acknowledging there are posts addressed to me and letting you guys l know that I will answer them but for now, I’m going to focus on this specific issue because I think it’s very important

I don't think I have the game knowledge to understand precisely why this is a bad idea, but it

FEELS

like one. I agree with the ideas you're expressing here, and considering the prior scum-thoughts on maestro's slot, they make sense. I still feel uneasy over it though, because I don't fully grasp what the ramifications of it could mean.

you’ve hit the nail on the head there. it ~feels~ wrong and ~scary~. I mean “giving more information”?! if that’s wrong, it can’t be undone and i don’t know if i trust kanna” is probably the argument and i get it but i’m encouraging you guys to at least think on the idea and check if my logic is correct.

andante has claimed pr, yes? so there are two possible scenarios
a) andante is telling the truth. therefore she is a real pr and town
b) andante is lying. this is because she’s scum.

if we are in world a), assuming we do not launch her today, she will die by nightkill tonight. I don’t see why scum wouldn’t shoot an outted pr.

if we are in world b), she will not die because she is scum.

kanna is suggesting andante clarify what pr they are (full claim). let’s look at the pros and cons for each scenario, starting with a)

pros of andante full claiming in a)

- if they full claim, and no one counterclaims, they are guaranteed to be town. there are no ifs and buts about it. since we get a confirmed townslot today, we can also reassess some of our reads. if that’s truly the case, it’ll be a massive wake up call for me personally as I think the scum team is aero/andante

cons of andante full claiming in b)

- the worst case scenario (i.e. she dies) is already true because she has already let scum know she is pr. them knowing exactly what pr she is doesn’t change the worst case scenario from happening or becoming worse somehow. therefore, i consider this point moot.
- one comment i read on this page was “it’ll let scum know what setup we are in” — yes that is true. but I don’t think that knowledge is as much of a benefit to scum as it sounds on paper. at least I can’t think of a way i could use it as scum to massively swing the tide in my favour. I’ll invite anyone reading this to think on this in case I’m missing something though — put yourself in scum’s shoes. If say you know the prs are a jailkeeper and a friendly neighbour (or whatever combination), how will that change how you play the game going forward? since I can’t think of the inherent benefit of scum knowing the setup, I consider this point negligible

weighting the pros and cons I think the pros outweigh the cons. having a confirmed town is pretty good and imo, the negatives are just negligible.

ok now b)

pros of andante claiming in b)

- her full claiming will draw out the real pr though a counterclaim. we know due to the setup that there can only be one of each role, therefore there are confirmed to be 1 scum in those 2 pr claims. that is extremely valuable information, especially on d1. whether we launch inside the 2 claims or wait for one to die is whole nother beast so I will not talk about that. To summarise, you get 1 confirmed scum in a pool of 2 people which is a massive advantage to town
- if the real pr were to die by nightkill, town gets confirmed scum

cons of andante claiming in b)

- going hand in hand with the pros of claiming in b), we expose the real pr. scum now know who the real pr is whereas previously they didn’t. the real pr will most likely get shot now.

simultaneously thinking about both the pros and cons for b), i consider this a massive win. it’s essentially like we’re making a trade for the life of 1 pr for 1 scum. considering scum have 2 members and town have 7, they are suffering a much bigger loss than town is.

To summarise this argument as a whole: the pros of andante full claiming outweighs the cons in both scenarios a) and b). Therefore they should claim

as im writing this, I know full well there’s a high chance people are still going to go back to logic in the third sentence i wrote in this post or tldr, but if that’s the case then oh well. i’m not going to yell and force my way through a mafia game to get my way.

i’ll shift my focus to scumhunting now

Agreed about need to fullclaim.

[DragonEater70]

Whatever Kann, I just want you to play the game and not only push this "OMG YALL ANDANTE MUST CLAIM HER ACTUAL ROLE" like, why does it matter?
but whatever, I'm tracker. happy now?

Oh.

[DragonEater70]

genuinely love how I’m Kanna’s only sr? really? as scum I play like this?

nah homie, you *and* aero are my scumreads. and does scum you play like this -- i haven't seen evidence pointing to no so. if there's a reason why you think you should be townread, please share

on a quick skim i don't think you answered my question earlier though? can you please do that?

Spoiler: question

i think my trs are
dragon as top town - lining up with meta, they do feel a bit awkward in his first post i agree but that's mirroring his play in our other newbie and they feel very towny
aero - i like him and his play SO FUCKING MUCH he has good takes on play etc etc maybe this might just be personal bias but oh well
elpis - not sure why they're so high, but mostly just because of the vibes. i like the way they post, it seems like it's coming from a towny perspective. i also can't tell if their profile picture is undertale or just pixel art elpis if you see this please clarify because i'm like,, going insane of it istg
maestro - lower than aero and elpis because i haven't seen much of their play yet, but i like the way they post too. maybe i'll come back on this later

I'm pretty certain it's patchwork and bewolt

what makes you so certain at this point?

Honestly, it feels like Ircher did express a lot of his views on past posts in at least simple form; enough to show that he's involved. In addition, despite your criticisms, he doesn't seem to be taking an easy route to put another vote against you, Aero, despite I *think* you having quite a few currently, which to me seems like a pretty definitive show of confidence that he isn't just trying to get kill votes happening against anyone who they think is suspicious of them.

This is assuming my knowledge on first night voting **does** lead to someone being killed, which I would appreciate being corrected on if that's not the case

I want to say this feels like Elpis is scum who knows Ircher is town

and how is your scumread there more significant than this read in which you think elpis is tmi'ing?

p-edit: i see. cool! does anyone want to counterclaim? i don't

Didn't you list bewolkt as null-scum?

[DragonEater70]

I definitely just played a game where you were town, and I am NOT feeling town!Aureal this game lol

Cool but weren't you just 100% certain about Patch and bewolkt a second ago?

I'm so confused by these sudden read shifts.

I think I'll have to look at Aureal's other games as well as maybe Andante's and Ircher's (I know been replaced but a read on him is still a read).

Anyway I currently rule out the following as being scum:
Patch, Kawaii, Elpis, Aero.
The following could be scum in any combination, but I need to read previous games etc to identify meta:
Bewolkt, Andante, Kanna, Aureal.

[DragonEater70]

I do think Kanna leans scum

andante has claimed pr, yes? so there are two possible scenarios
a) andante is telling the truth. therefore she is a real pr and town

I feel it's a

Thanks! You can join my town reads!!

Why you 180ing me?

Kanna is not Kawaii

[DragonEater70]

UNVOTE:

[DragonEater70]

partner interactions between aero and maestro-slot

they start off pretty subtle, throwing a bit of shade at one another but never pushing one another -- the classic. the point of subtly shading one another is to distance so they don't seem aligned, but they never push each other in a serious way because they don't actually want to get each other out.

Spoiler:

Voting for someone brand new just because they don't have airtight knowledge of site meta seems... A weird way to go

Only thing bothering me about Aero is that I would think they would see that characterizing my vote on DE like this is a bit disingenuous at best; did my vote come across as “voting somebody just bc they don’t have airtight knowledge of site meta”…? I don’t think that’s how I felt or what my post said at all lol

I just went back and read it, and whoops, I completely misread. Well, I thought you'd voted for the player you were explaining that to, so i thought it was just like a quick jump, but nah

aero later has maestro as slight townlean. not incriminating by itself, but does follow the narrative that they do not want to push each other.

Spoiler:

I've been pretty clear about my reads, but I'm happy to give updated ones.

Town
Patch, dragon

Slight town read
Aureal, Maestro,

Null
Bewoke, Kawaii

Minor Scum
Elpis

Scum read
Ircher

this post is weird, specifically the wording -- "disinterested" considering maestro's last 3 posts. it is just not an accurate word to describe the situation at all. in fact, he seems very interested (and concerned) since he had to hop on just minutes after being voted by aureal. but yes, this post is more subtle shade since aero is calling maestro maybe-scum again

I honestly cannot tell if Maestro is scum or just disinterested

Spoiler: maestro's last 3 posts before the "disinterested" comment

I even f-ing posted explaining why I wouldn’t be around end of this week and/or much this weekend; just bc nobody read/understood it… lol

Kawaii is town and the wagon is bad, there’s some content for ya to chew on

Aureal’s 270 is laughably forced, over-justified, and the part about Scum being the inactives makes no sense but *thumbs up*

next, maestro lashes out with my most hated post in the game because of this one word "disinterested" (305) you'll have to click this as too long for my post and i genuinely don't want this in my post history

considering how off the word "disinterested" is and how big of an impact it had on maestro, i think the plan in the scum pt was like
maestro: hey dude i'm really sorry, i should be posting more but i'm genuinely busy and i know some people are starting to scumread me.
aero: nah it's cool. should i get on the wagon? i don't really want to though
maestro: no, go ahead! scumread me for a bs reason and then i have an excuse to lash out with some good ol fashioned ate. like some REALLY strong ate. and then i think i'll be fine
aero: sounds good

next is one of the most awkward soft bus-pushes i've ever seen

Spoiler:

I will say that I feel like D1 usually turns into this swingy back and forth almost every game, and the real truth is that we're just basing our reads on no firm information yet. At the very least, we have a lot of interactions, and tomorrow hopefully some PRs will have made their actions. Not the mention a night kill, it will really help narrow this down a bit with all of that combined

Do not bring outside influences/perspectives into games.

Ircher, idk why you requested replacement but I hope it wasn't bc of me. Cheers.

I got to Aureal and idk if I'm happy w my vote, will have to post the full thing tomorrow bc I'm dead emotionally after rereading this damn game and part of it doesn't matter anyway bc replace out, also Aero

already relying on or hoping for Night Actions and Power Roles that may not exist

is sus AF for an experienced player loooool

reason I said what I just said is, just so everybody is on the same page, bc almost half of the potential setups offer only 0-1 significant Power Roles to Town AND give Scum a rolecop, so I am extremely leery of Aero after that comment - seems like an easy post to make and dismiss as a casual comment when it is in fact role-fishing to make Scum's job easierty

*give scum a rolecop or a roleblcok, like wtf are you doing talking about Power Roles D1, my guy? aero are you Scum? [unv][/unv]

Also, I 100% know who called me what/said what about me, I've been spending the last couple days frustrated I was trying to be nice byt not calling ppl oiut individually

actually I am wrong: only 2 out of the 9 potential setups offer Town more than 1 full POwer Role, Aero why are you rolefishing in 380 and wtf are YOUR reads right now?

again, i think this is purposefully bad because he doesn't actually want to make a good case for people to agree with and want to vote aero. like come on, this push really doesn't make sense -- where is the role fishing? i think the goal here was to seem unaligned with aero coming out looking fine cause the case made no sense and maestro still surviving because he has ~angry energy~ and ig he hopes people will townread his that? or maybe be too intimidated to push him lest they get the same treatment aero got. also to note: with the strong language maestro used in that push (like "aero are you Scum?) i'd expect an aero vote. especially from someone so volatile as maestro. you can also compare this to his ircher or aureal pushes. but nah crickets.

and then we have aero shading again plus no vote

If I'm honest, Maestro is feeling like scum that was caught for the wrong reasons and is really pissed about it

and then it gets weirder. any, what should be, lingering feelings about that rolefishing push disappears in the next post. remember maestro called aero scum here. there should be at least *some* recollection of the event. but no, he's now townreading aero

Spoiler:

For the expose before I can get to posting the others, it's as follows:

Town on Dragon
Town on Aero
Town on Kawaii
Town on Elpis
Null for bewolkt
Scum for Aureal
Null for Ircher/replacement

maestro also cases patch at this point and i don't like the case but that's getting off topic. the partnery thing is that aero also gets on board with this patch scumread. with the gamestate, i'm guessing they decided the maestro slot was in trouble and they wanted to try to work together and make a counterwagon (patch).

I felt like Patchwork was trying pretty actively to understand people instead of making themselves seem like town.

On that topic, honestly that case Maestro posted on patch is something I've been thinking for a day or two now, that I don't really feel like since that point that Patch has been doing that much scum hunting and more just kinda being here. Especially a few of the things they said regarding why their vote was where it was (they said they voted for me in RVS and forgot about it, when they clearly were pushing me as a scum case like the day before?). Stuff like that has been very strange to me.

If it's not clear, I've sort of gotten a bit lost with this D1, which is why I was saying I'm interested to see how we can use this info tomorrow.

considering aero's earlier post

"If I'm honest, Maestro is feeling like scum that was caught for the wrong reasons and is really pissed about it"

i feel like it makes more sense for aero to stick to that read. but again he doesn't

and i also kinda think aero/maestro/andante are scummy individually but like i'm done for now

This a good case, I was already planning to vote Maestro (before the replacement). It explains why I couldn't find any possible Maestro/Andante partner, too!
VOTE: Andante
Hopefully their flip will clear up quite a lot in terms of reads.
For instance if they flip town I'm far likelier to sr Kanna.
VOTE:

[DragonEater70]

for kanna

p-edit: WHAT

Yeah IDFK what Kawaii is thinking but it makes me think there's no way they scum, right?

[DragonEater70]

No you know what.
UNVOTE:
Give me a few hours and I'll be back with an actual analysis of what's going on, because currently it's too confusing.

[DragonEater70]

like, kanna decides to case me as scum… AFTER I claimed tracker, where’s the town motivation to do that?

and dragon voting me just cause???

Just cause I'm still unconvinced you are town and honestly your flip is going to give us a lot to to extrapolate. But if there's no CC I'll bite the bullet and not vote you.

The following could be scum in any combination, but I need to read previous games etc to identify meta:
Bewolkt, Andante, Kanna, Aureal.

How can it possibly be Andante? The unccd tracker?

It could because I think at least 2 players didn't have an opportunity to CC?

Okay, so I'm doing a re-read to try to figure out what to do, and I just had to point this out.

reason I said what I just said is, just so everybody is on the same page, bc almost half of the potential setups offer only 0-1 significant Power Roles to Town AND give Scum a rolecop, so I am extremely leery of Aero after that comment - seems like an easy post to make and dismiss as a casual comment when it is in fact role-fishing to make Scum's job easierty

*give scum a rolecop or a roleblcok, like wtf are you doing talking about Power Roles D1, my guy? aero are you Scum? [unv][/unv]

Also, I 100% know who called me what/said what about me, I've been spending the last couple days frustrated I was trying to be nice byt not calling ppl oiut individually

actually I am wrong: only 2 out of the 9 potential setups offer Town more than 1 full POwer Role, Aero why are you rolefishing in 380 and wtf are YOUR reads right now?

Does anyone understand wtf Maestro is talking about here? I didn't understand what he was getting at the first time around; he seems to be implying that almost all power roles aren't actual power roles because they're not very useful. Which I suppose means he thinks Cop is the only meaningful power role.

This seems particularly weird given how he later claimed power role, which has been further clarified to be Tracker. If he didn't think his role was a full power role that mattered, why was he in such a rush to claim it before exiting the game? He only had three votes and a "spiritual" one, no intent to hammer, decent bit of time left in the day, so I don't know why he felt so threatened.

Idk either but I am kinda tired of overanalyzing this claim thing tbh, I'd rather scumhunt at this stage.

so far:

bewolkt
Aureal -- no cc
Elpis
DragonEater70 -- no cc? please confirm
patchwork -- no cc? please confirm
KawaiiKame -- no cc? please confirm
Kanna -- no cc
Andante
Aeronaut

i ask that dragon, patch and kawaii confirm they're not ccing as they've posted in thread but i don't know if they know when they should be ccing (or in patch's case, they've seen the claim)

Hi, confirming no CC this time (sadly, because I love CCing).

[DragonEater70]

As an aside, I've looked at another game Aureal played (Newbie 2111) and I gotta say their playstyle and vibes were completely different (they were town that game).
IDK if that's AI or not but I think it's worth looking at.
I also tried to look at other players but tbh I'm too tired.

[DragonEater70]

i'm sitting at my keyboard unsure of what to say because i've already explained it to the best of my ability but let me just say again.... cop and tracker CANNOT exist together. there is no cell in the setup with a cop and a tracker. if you are cop, you know the tracker is lying and are scum. so you should say it. in this case, a vague cc is perfectly acceptable

you'll only confuse everyone if you try to be a hero as cop and pseudo-confirm a tracker which is actually scum as town to try and and get another scum

Is this directed at me?
I know how CC mechanics work, no need to explain the setup to me.

[DragonEater70]

How do you feel with Andante full claiming tracker, thus being confirmed in Kanna's eyes as fully town, yet Kanna continuing to scumcase Andante?

yeah it's my bad i misunderstood the setup earlier when i made 512. i didn't realise there was a way scum could claim a power role and not be cc'd, but i've corrected myself in 578. apart from that, the explanation is still valid

How can scum claim a power role and not be cc'd?

If we in column C, row 2 (which btw I suspected was the case in my last newbie game where I was the JK), scum can claim Tracker and literally no one would be able to CC them. But this claim would require either a 1/3 gamble or scum reading the game well enough to reduce it to a 1/2 gamble (because they see there's no masons).

basically, if you are either tracker (there cannot be 2 of the same role), cop (there cannot be a tracker if there is a cop), or mason (there cannot be a tracker if there are masons), please say so now

cop do not claim, only claim if you a tracker/mason

No, if there's cop they should claim so we lim the false tracker and then have doc/JK protect the cop. Or kill the fake cop if they are fake indeed.

[DragonEater70]

what do you mean "cop do not claim"? if you and andante are masons, there is no cop?

I thought a cop exists if masons exist...fuck

locktown

Would be locktown anyway because claiming masons as scum is suicidal on D1 in this setup.

Uness someone CC's they are conftown but I don't expect a CC.

I'm just going to VOTE: Aureal
honestly has been giving weird vibes and very different vibes to when she was town. And I don't think either Patch or bewolkt is scum atm (less sure about bewolkt though).

[DragonEater70]

what do you mean "cop do not claim"? if you and andante are masons, there is no cop?

I thought a cop exists if masons exist...fuck

locktown

andante is locktown with me, do you want to solve this game now?

Let's do it!
I think Aureal is the scum, as crazy as it sounds.

[DragonEater70]

I think Aureal is the scum

I see the potential in this, why Aureal?

Two things:
1. I've already sort of had a lot of evidence against her in my ISO of her and elsewhere, but I was being perhaps too lenient.
2. Meta analysis
Here are some posts which explain my viewpoint against her (and I was being very lenient and not pushing due to either tunnel vision or Maestro or town-tunneling on her):
242 - Initial scumread
327
333 - ISO analysis of Aureal with a lot of scummy things which I kinda dismiss for no reason.

I'm just going to VOTE: Aureal
honestly has been giving weird vibes and very different vibes to when she was town

So meta? Do you mind expanding?

Here's her current ISO from this game: viewtopic.php?p=13686839&f=11&t=90539&u ... ect[]=1446
Here's her ISO from Newbie 2111, where she was a Vanilla Townie: viewtopic.php?p=13639826&f=11&t=90438&u ... ect[]=1446
Read them both. Completely different in play style, expression style, etc.

[DragonEater70]

honestly though, i've thought about it and i'm not too against being limmed if this event has forever etched the thought of being scum in your brain -- it'll cause too many problems later on. i do ask that you wait till later to lim me though because i believe i can still be of use with solving

Nah you are almost a locktown in my eyes, I don't think we should lim you. Aureal is a much better candidate for today IMO.

[DragonEater70]

I thought you meant to cc with role...

Me ccing means implicating Andante as scum...

By default, if I ccd I had to full claim...

??? what

um but about the claiming -- no. i think you got confused because i asked andante to full claim but those are 2 entirely different situations

basically, if you are either tracker (there cannot be 2 of the same role), cop (there cannot be a tracker if there is a cop), or mason (there cannot be a tracker if there are masons), please say so now

If I cc'd I'd implicate Andante as not the tracker meaning I'd have to claim to be mason with her...

Then you shouldn't have CC'd at all.
The whole point of CCing is see if they scum or not.

[DragonEater70]

Here's her current ISO from this game: viewtopic.php?p=13686839&f=11&t=90539&u ... ect[]=1446
Here's her ISO from Newbie 2111, where she was a Vanilla Townie: viewtopic.php?p=13639826&f=11&t=90438&u ... ect[]=1446
Read them both. Completely different in play style, expression style, etc.

Is there a reason you picked that particular game? All of my games are VT, and like I said earlier, I react to the game I'm in. This one has thrown me for a bit of a loop, and your earlier poking at me made me realize that yes I was acting rather oddly with the asking people to explain me thing because this game is odd compared to what I've seen so far. I've seen games where there's a mix of new and experienced players, and games where I'm inexperienced among more experienced players; but this game had a bunch of Very Newbie players and our SEs were not very proactive (or active in general). I function more naturally when I've got other people to bounce off of, and there just wasn't much of that sort of thing going on. So it left me feeling like I Have To Do It trying to be some sort of mentor/push the game along and I'm just not used to that.

No reason for that game in particular. You can link another game of your choosing in which you are a VT and I promise I'll look at your ISO, if you feel another game would give a better (or more similar representation of your town meta.

[DragonEater70]

I understand why you felt you have to be a bit of a mentor.
Who do you think is scum then? Because if it's not you I am truly at a loss.

[DragonEater70]

Okay I'm re-reading the full claim/not claim situation and I'm trying to reassess the situation and make sense of it:

So first there was the initial soft claim. If Andante were scum, that could have already been risky since there was the possibility of being outed by masons if there were in the game. After that, I believe there was no as much pressure on Andante as there was before, so I don't think he was in that much danger anymore. There was still some push for a full claim and he did claim Tracker.

this means if mafia know we are in column c, they have the potential to claim doctor or tracker and *not* be counterclaimed. but mafia also have a risk as they choose the wrong option out of doctor or tracker, they will still be counterclaimed. cop counterclaims tracker and jailkeeper counterclaims doctor. and of course mason counterclaims both because they know if they exist, we must be in a3 or c3.

Kanna kept pushing to out the other PR (I'm using PR here as any role that is not a townie since I've seen some discussion over what is/isn't a PR). I was disagreeing with that reasoning but it is true that if Andante was scum and knew we were in column C, and they were already aware that there were no masons, it would be a 50/50 chance with a false doctor/tracker claim. But for Kanna to think we could be in column C and Andante would have gambled for 1 setting there... That's a big jump imo if you have no information. But given this, if Kanna is scum then we are for sure in column A, because if she knew we were in column C she didn't need any more info because there would be no other roles to protect Andante.

I’m sorry but that wasn’t a good gambit like, from what I’ve seen scum usually claim pr when they’re in trouble so a ~vague pr~ claim certainly wasn’t going to make me townread you, and then tracker is probably also the most scummy pr to claim alongside doctor cause those are the only two fake claims scum can use. actually, tracker *is* the scummiest pr to claim because a cop has to be outed to counterclaim it. so for scum, it’s like you either survive by guessing the right cell or draw out the cop (both of which are good) or you’re just unlucky and there are masons.

Also I kind of disagree here going back to it. If Andante's gambit had been "Either I survive or out the cop" they would have claimed tracker from the beginning. They softclaimed first which was an "only survive" type of claim and then they were pushed into full claiming. It was really the push from the rest that went to draw out the other PR.

a vague cc is perfectly acceptable

bewolkt
Aureal -- no cc
Elpis
DragonEater70 -- no cc? please confirm
patchwork -- no cc? please confirm
KawaiiKame -- no cc? please confirm
Kanna -- no cc
Andante
Aeronaut

That being said, it is also true that she wasn't pushing to really counterclaim but just to get confirmation that there were no one that could counterclaim it, which is more town. But I have the feeling that even if no one had counterclaimed she would still be thinking that was just Andante guessing the setup somehow, so there was not really another out of this than the full claim.

Tell you the truth, your analysis is a fair one but I feel we're not going to get very far with setup talk RN. I think we should focus on scum hunting, which is not something we actually have a lot of time to do. I thought it might be Aureal, I do have doubts, would like to hear your opinions.
Further, someone suggested it might be Aero and I'm open to the possibility and will ISO them, but also want to hear your opinion on that slot.

[DragonEater70]

Just woke up and got on, it seems like I've missed a LOT, reeling a bit to try and take everything in.

So, Andante claimed tracker-- but is actually a mason with kawaii, and did so to try and bait people who knew the setup? How would people know the setup? Having a little trouble following but I think I understand the general idea. That seems worrisome as information to have out on day 1, because the benefit of masons is mostly later in a game, right?

As for the vote on Kanna, I'm not very comfortable with the idea, especially since they seemed to just be trying to analyze and push Andante for some information, but I also can see that people have set their sights on the latest information rather than past, and intend to try to information gather through Kanna's elimination maybe? If the choice is between Kanna, and Aureal, though, I would be more inclined to vote against Kanna. Aureal has felt really heavily town for me the whole game, and I don't really understand where the suspicions are coming from in that regard. However, I may do another ISO of her soon to see if I've missed something there.

Personally, I am leaning towards a patch/aero scum team, but that's still a work in progress feeling, and I'm not confident.

I don't feel it has to be necessarily between Kanna and Aureal. I would like to hear more from Aero as well. I felt they were much more active and they contributed a lot (and in a good way) at the beginning but he faded away lately, which makes me suspect a little bit tbh

Agreed

[DragonEater70]

Okay saying hella towny is hella towny.

[DragonEater70]

I am not sarcastic btw

[DragonEater70]

Okay I ISO'd Aero and I have to agree that they have not been providing much content and are a bit too reserved with their opinions and votes in a way that pings me as scummy.
VOTE: Aeronaut

[DragonEater70]

Dragon, my reads are in order of suspicion, sorry if that wasn't clear.

Patch freaking out about deadline instead of reading posts about it is weird.

Aero just doesn't stand out as doing anything makes me feel it's our best bet to find scum here- and his own argument from early in the game also.

What argument in the opening game?
I'm down to push Aero

"Someone who is trying to look productive but isn't actually doing much", 67

As in ascending order of scum? Yeah it was clear and I'm voting with you.

[DragonEater70]

Just found such a weird inconsistency in Aero's posts, which I really can't see town making:

His [Ircher's] jump onto Maestro felt really unnatural to me, and mostly just something to look like he's taking a position.

I'd say the most organic wagon that's grown is Maestro's

. It's taken some real fight to get people to get on, and I don't feel like Maestro has done a whole lot to warrant him being town. Like I said though, I really can't tell if he's just disinterested or not. The comment about Aureal and Inactives felt... completely out of place.

I also like this Maestro wagon quite a bit because I'm decently sure 2 of those 3 are town.

VC 1.7

Maestro (3):

Ircher

, Aureal,

DragonEater70

TOWN

Ircher

Aureal

NULL-TOWN
Kawaii
Bewolkt

NULL
Patch

NULL-SCUM

Dragon

Maestro

SCUM
Elpis

A sincere question here, why are you sayong that if a wagon formed quickly there's more likely to be acum on it? I am thinking on late RVS stage town is likelier to just randomly get on wagons quickly for silly reasons then abandon them.

It's more likely that two people will jump onto a wagon to try to end the day quicker, and that's two of five people who are needed for a hammer. Even if just one person joins and one doesn't, that's still something. If the wagon is actually on scum, I can see the scum partner trying to save their friend by poking holes in the wagon. At the very least, they won't be jumping on quickly. Maestro's wagon is the first one all game that feels pretty genuine to me.

Like, even my Ircher push, there was very little resistance to that at first, which is bothersome. Just my thought process.

So in conclusion, Aero thought that Ircher voting Maestro was completely fake, was thinking that I was scum, and still liked the Maestro wagon and called it organic? And why would you like a wagon you think a scum is pushing? What?

[DragonEater70]

the aero slot is locktown now

Please elaborate?

[DragonEater70]

Spoiler: post analyzing Aureal

lol this vc flavour on this page is very appropriate

i had a look over aureal’s game that you mentioned dragon, and I agree there are differences, but I also see some similarities like her confidence — it’s just expressed differently, like in the other game, she’s more sassy, but in this game she’s more confrontational. can’t say that’s scum indicative.

I did read through her iso in this game again though and I don’t know! I have some different feelings

she did come into the game swinging which is towny, but her actual content -- specifically the e-1 stuff -- is maybe worth looking at. she seems to be very passionate about it and votes aero for it in her first post so i take it to mean she finds it scummy.

Spoiler:

So, let me get this straight. You think you're on an E-1 wagon. On a person with six posts. On page four. Less than a day into the game being open. With a slot that hasn't done anything yet.

And your instinct is to make an offhand comment about it because you want "a little more input"? Rather than, say, UNVOTE?

VOTE: Aeronaut which should put you both at 3 because I don't see more than Maestro voting on Ircher since the 2 count on Ircher at the top of the page.

You think that making a post about it is enough to avoid accidentally ending the day? Look, the guy who had this slot popped up and posted without reading the thread to see he'd been replaced. What if he'd come in a few hours earlier and thrown down a random vote there before reading, not thinking votes are going to be mattering like that yet so early on? It's entirely possible and it's totally avoidable by just not letting the wagons be that close to an elimination. That's the responsible course of action there. I don't think people should be cavalier with wagons getting to e-1 unless they're actually okay with an elimination going through there. If you want people to talk, you should not be okay with an elimination going through there. You don't know what the next person is going to do. Maybe they're a total newbie who doesn't realize how bad it's going to look if they hammer this fast. Maybe they're just overconfident and want to feel important. Speedwagons are not the exclusive domain of scum.

i feel like maybe she made a bit of a mountain of a molehill though and wonder if that’s like trying a bit too hard to look the role of a “good righteous townie". I did see her explanation on this in 398 and it makes sense why she would be nervous about e-1s, but I’m not sure if it makes sense for her to be critical of others for putting people at e-1 because they might not feel the same way. and from her explanation she also says that the only scum on her speedlim was the third voter so it seems like she also knows putting a fourth vote on someone isn't "scum indicative", it's just "beneficial for scum" which is different. it’s like this thing where town does something that seems scummy but the move itself just isn't something that scum is more likely to do — dogging on that is probably what actual scum do

also her back and forth with aero is like a bit disproportionately confrontational from her side. for example this:

Spoiler:

Oh nah, I just was trying to be friendly. Not to mention though, a lot of times people reveal things by how they introduce themselves. I always feel like the more we can get people talking, the easier it will be to figure out who's scum.

Like how does this post even mesh with being so cavalier later about the possible end of day? Do you want us to talk or not?

i don't think this is scummy exactly, but does seem weird

she defends ircher, which is my slot here:

Spoiler:

What do you think of Ircher? And what do you think of me and Maestro?

Ircher's probably aggressively trying to generate content by giving hot takes. You're probably okay, so you should be wary of Maestro. These folk should know better. I'm not the most open with my thoughts and I've played with enough people who are waaaaaaaay worse to know that this is a losing strategy.

Could you tell me what a few of Ircher's "hot takes" actually are? All I've gotten from him so far is that thing about Maestro.

Mostly referring to the brusque tone, which seems to mostly be what people are reacting to. I didn't probe them in detail, and I don't feel like a lot of the response to that post did either. Seems more like people saw it and went "oh well aren't YOU a snippy sort, harumph, I don't like you."

I don’t think ircher looks bad cause I’ve had experience with him but I’m not sure for most people it warranted a hard defend? sometimes scum can’t help but point out bad pushes because certain slots look more towny from their perspective

the rest of her postings i don't really have a problem with. with this, aureal goes down on my readslist although i still have to look at aero. stay tuned

I noticed all or most of the things you did and came to the same conclusion - it's weird, it could be towny but it could also be scum trying too hard.
since I don't have better scumreads and since you say Aero's replacement is locktown, do you think we should go for the Aureal flip?

[DragonEater70]

I even f-ing posted explaining why I wouldn’t be around end of this week and/or much this weekend; just bc nobody read/understood it… lol

Aureal’s 270 is laughably forced, over-justified, and the part about Scum being the inactives makes no sense but *thumbs up*

Honestly Maestro does give valid points here but his tone in writing these posts sounds exactly like a scum who's frustrated for being suspected for the wrong reasons.
atm gonna VOTE: Maestro

this slot is going to be a massive headache

Aureal keeps flipping to me between town/mafia, she's highly volatile, feels Aureal is town/mafia at once
I feel flipping Aureal will be highly valuable

Hey agreed, I think atm I'm 100% sure there's a scum in {Aureal, Alisae}. We can flip one and then the other if the first is town.

[DragonEater70]

No scumreads. At all. Unless "confused by Dragon" means a scumread?

Yeah it takes me a long ass time to come up with scumreads...
I give people the benefit of the doubt/good faith to a painful extent

You are quoting a quote of me as if Alisae said it, IDK if you realized. Anyway this was a long time ago, right now I don't think you are scum obviously.

[DragonEater70]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense.

[DragonEater70]

Now, that being said, after I claimed tracker, Kanna's confusion seemed to be from her KNOWING I couldn't be tracker and she was confused why I wasn't being CCed

no

Agreed.
+town points for you.

[DragonEater70]

It's very obvious on read through that the person who holds the cards here is Andante, as it's her play.
And it's not like Maestro is lying. The slot is obviously a PR.
I don't think a wolf is going to think that town is going to out their actual role to kill fakeclaiming town.
Idunno, that doesn't seem realistic.

The whole premise sounds like its based on thinking that the player is lying about being a PR in the first place.
To think Andante is lying about being a PR, one would also have to assume that Maestro under the context which he claimed is also lying.

Just doesn't sound likely to be something that comes from a wolf BUT it is likely to come from town who thinks their suspect is fakeclaiming!

Yeah

[DragonEater70]

the purpose of the tracker claim was to see reactions, since ONLY SCUM would have known I was lying.

So I claim tracker, and Kanna continued to scum case me/whatever, if Kanna were town, they would have went along with my claim, not continue to push me, cause "there's no way andante is tracker"

Honestly, after my re-read I was on the same page as Kanna with that Aero/Andante solve. I didn't even read that post when she made it because it seemed pointless to be trying that hard right now to make a case on a claimed pr. But I've continued to be skeptical of your claim and got moreso as I read back to see things like Maestro's talking about power roles and your own adamant refusal to hard claim which you impulsively went back on with a bit of pushback. It's not anti town to continue to be skeptical of an unverified pr, it's good town play. She did continue to vote you though, so you have a point in that it was maybe pushing a little too hard.

But I don't think I can vote her for that. I think she just scumread you that much. Why would scum not just go "oh okay" and send a nightkill on you? If she knew you were lying that would mean we're in column c which has no tracker. And scum are free to kill anyone they want in that column, there's no protectives. So it doesn't matter to them what you actually are, you're dead in the morning in any case.

Kawaii what do you think is going on here if Aureal is a wolf writing this post?

I'm not tracking, what do YOU think is going on here?

[DragonEater70]

The reason I would probably say that I don’t have a good read on dragon right now even if I saw things that made me want to tr it early is mostly because guy has voted I think everything or mostly everything and it’s the kind of thing where I just need to read deeper into what’s going on

It's because this game is so damn swingy.
I don't think I've voted Kawaii, Patch or Kanna at all though.
I am gonna VOTE: Aureal as well btw, because as I said earlier I'm content with limming either you or her, and it seems town wants to go for her.

[DragonEater70]

the purpose of the tracker claim was to see reactions, since ONLY SCUM would have known I was lying.

So I claim tracker, and Kanna continued to scum case me/whatever, if Kanna were town, they would have went along with my claim, not continue to push me, cause "there's no way andante is tracker"

Honestly, after my re-read I was on the same page as Kanna with that Aero/Andante solve. I didn't even read that post when she made it because it seemed pointless to be trying that hard right now to make a case on a claimed pr. But I've continued to be skeptical of your claim and got moreso as I read back to see things like Maestro's talking about power roles and your own adamant refusal to hard claim which you impulsively went back on with a bit of pushback. It's not anti town to continue to be skeptical of an unverified pr, it's good town play. She did continue to vote you though, so you have a point in that it was maybe pushing a little too hard.

But I don't think I can vote her for that. I think she just scumread you that much. Why would scum not just go "oh okay" and send a nightkill on you? If she knew you were lying that would mean we're in column c which has no tracker. And scum are free to kill anyone they want in that column, there's no protectives. So it doesn't matter to them what you actually are, you're dead in the morning in any case.

Kawaii what do you think is going on here if Aureal is a wolf writing this post?

I'm not tracking, what do YOU think is going on here?

bro idunno know
it's why I'm outsourcing opinions

It kinda feels like Aureal is defending Kanna possibly a bit too much, which I really can't see scum motives for unless Kanna is her partner.
Thing is, I don't think Kanna is scum, but I think Aureal's flip will clarify a lot.

[DragonEater70]

Btw I just remembered that when Andamte was still being aggressively pushed, I thought it might be good to flip her just to get better associative tells on other players. Since Andante pseudo-flipped town (as in, she's conftown), it might be worthwhile to go back and reread her pre-claim interactions.

[DragonEater70]

What does Aureal's flip help you clarify

If Aureal flips scum there's a legitimate possibility Kanna is scum, otherwise I locktown Kanna.
If Aureal flips town I think that puts more shade on your slot due to your constant mutual pushing.

[DragonEater70]

I might be wrong though.

[DragonEater70]

What does Aureal's flip help you clarify

If Aureal flips scum there's a legitimate possibility Kanna is scum, otherwise I locktown Kanna.
If Aureal flips town I think that puts more shade on your slot due to your constant mutual pushing.

Why does Aureal being a wolf mean Kanna is a wolf?
What rules out the possibility that Me and Aureal are just wrong on each other?
reading for pre-flip associations like this is dangerous when you don't know what you're doing

It doesn't mean Kanna is a wolf, it means there's a slight possibility Kanna is a wolf. Otherwise there's no possibility at all.
The slight possibility comes from Aureal being a bit overdefensive of Kanna.

[DragonEater70]

reading for pre-flip associations like this is dangerous when you don't know what you're doing

Why?

[DragonEater70]

Generally speaking when I make reads that are like "this group has 1 wolf max 0 wolf min" it's because those 2 have interacted in a way that I feel like rules out the possibility of those players being wolves.

The best way to use associations to hunt is to rule out those who they can't be aligned with.
Reads, generally in card games (and I think this can be applied to mafia as well), are formed by ruling out possibilities.
Tho this is pretty hypocritical for me to say considering generally speaking when I am pushing associations I am using associations to help me prove why I think one might be a wolf

Yeah I get the point, I don't think you can be aligned with Aureal but both of you are scummy to some degree (Aureal much more than you are tbh).

[DragonEater70]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense.

Well Dragon just took a bellyflop into the scum pool with this post. Seriously, some players here might be confused why you don't vote out a claimed PR here in this setup without a counterclaim, but I expect

you

to understand.

Oh man I didn't see the context of that post, my bad
I just answered Kawaii's question without looking.

[DragonEater70]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense.

Well Dragon just took a bellyflop into the scum pool with this post. Seriously, some players here might be confused why you don't vote out a claimed PR here in this setup without a counterclaim, but I expect

you

to understand.

Oh man I didn't see the context of that post, my bad
I just answered Kawaii's question without looking.

But actually this means I need to answer Kawaii's question again. One moment please.

[DragonEater70]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

So yeah, Aureal is unvoting Andante because they are claimed PR, but in this post she's still thinking Andante is scum. Therefore it being an "unvoting andante post" doesn't make it a townpost for Aureal at all.

[DragonEater70]

Oh man
Readlist:

Kawaii, Andante

- conf masons.

Kanna

- almost locktown. Their reads and analysis are really strong. I disagree with the claim that they were scum trying to out PR or confused by the lack of CC. I think they were town tunneling a bit too hard on Andante and geniunely confused about them not being CC'd.

Elpis

- Early game felt they were fence sitting too much, then they started playing more and did give a townvibe in their tone of their posts, but honestly haven't contributed much, so I'm not really sure about them.

bewolkt

- there's just so little content from them it's driving me mad, but they also kinda feel like their town meta. They had like 2 strong posts the entire game and the rest is just meh. Null - town by default.

Patch

- I was reading them earlier as towny due to conforming to their town meta, but honestly they've contributed less than usual this game and their recent posts about deadline come off as really panicky and weird. I mean I haven't even seen any of their scum meta so how can I judge they are town? Null and although I said they were town by default, they could be scum actually.

Alisae

- Aeronaut was a bit scummy in fading into the background but actually townie overall. Alisae actually uses a lot of critical thinking and is pretty townie but her strong push on Aureal feels potentially a bit powerwolfy.

Aureal

- Just giving the wrong vibes, like yeah they are confident and confrontational which are usually town characteristics, but they are confrontational about the wrong things, and off their own meta. It's a weak scumread but it's what I have.

[DragonEater70]

What does Aureal's flip help you clarify

If Aureal flips scum there's a legitimate possibility Kanna is scum, otherwise I locktown Kanna.
If Aureal flips town I think that puts more shade on your slot due to your constant mutual pushing.

Why does Aureal being a wolf mean Kanna is a wolf?
What rules out the possibility that Me and Aureal are just wrong on each other?
reading for pre-flip associations like this is dangerous when you don't know what you're doing

It doesn't mean Kanna is a wolf, it means there's a slight possibility Kanna is a wolf. Otherwise there's no possibility at all.
The slight possibility comes from Aureal being a bit overdefensive of Kanna.

So I want to reprhase, cuz I think I asked the wrong question
I think I should have asked "why can't Aureal be a wolf defending a villager!Kanna?"

Umm they can but it's a bit of a misplay on their side?

[DragonEater70]

Spoiler: Dunning-Kruger Image

If that's aimed at me, I'm probably going to say I'm at the point where I've just started going downward on the graph, where the red curve intersects with the dotted line.
And yeah I'm probably not experienced enough to do this kind of analysis.

[DragonEater70]

What does Aureal's flip help you clarify

If Aureal flips scum there's a legitimate possibility Kanna is scum, otherwise I locktown Kanna.
If Aureal flips town I think that puts more shade on your slot due to your constant mutual pushing.

Why does Aureal being a wolf mean Kanna is a wolf?
What rules out the possibility that Me and Aureal are just wrong on each other?
reading for pre-flip associations like this is dangerous when you don't know what you're doing

It doesn't mean Kanna is a wolf, it means there's a slight possibility Kanna is a wolf. Otherwise there's no possibility at all.
The slight possibility comes from Aureal being a bit overdefensive of Kanna.

So I want to reprhase, cuz I think I asked the wrong question
I think I should have asked "why can't Aureal be a wolf defending a villager!Kanna?"

Umm they can but it's a bit of a misplay on their side?

Why do you think it's a misplay?

Because it didn't gain her towncred in my eyes and also scum!Aureal could've gotten a free mislim if she pushed Kanna instead?

[DragonEater70]

Actually Alisae should prolly be in the yellow-green category of my readlist, due to recent posts.

[DragonEater70]

that chart was for Kanna.
it's okay, you're still awesome to me!

A lot of people think they're bad at mafia, especially people think they're bad but they're actually fine.

Oh okay

[DragonEater70]

the aero slot is locktown now

Please elaborate?

this was a joke btw! i just like alisae so

Oh okay. What are your thoughts on her so far?

[DragonEater70]

Hey agreed, I think atm I'm 100% sure there's a scum in {Aureal, Alisae}. We can flip one and then the other if the first is town.

yeah aureal and alisae are never aligned for too many reasons. if we find the right one, we can locktown the other

I just loved how messed up the formatting is in this post. I think the red line is yours?

[DragonEater70]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

UNVOTE: Andante I guess. Honestly, I felt a little uncomfortable with the way Kanna was talking about people being willing to eliminate the slot, felt a little like trying to push the narrative that it was inevitable and I kinda wanted to unvote at least temporarily to at least make sure Maestro continued to talk. His case on patch was interesting and I can't say it doesn't resonate with some feelings I've had; I kinda felt that sort of thing starting with when patch seemed to agree with me that it was unnecessarily risky to e-1 people early then promptly put Aero at e-1. However, his last few posts were mega WTF, like he was trying to screw with us, so I still feel pretty bad about the slot.

Given the claim I suppose it's best to see what a new day brings in that regard. But it feels bad to go after patch either at this point. The way Maestro started to case them and it promptly got picked up by the replacement makes me worry that Andante saw plans of the sort for a patch push in the scum PT. And I don't know that I agree with the reasoning about lack of interaction. Heck, I'm not sure I've really interacted with some slots, I'd have to check isos to better judge.

I'm not really sure what direction to go at this point, I'll need to do a little more thinking and poking at things.

VOTE: aureal

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

So yeah, Aureal is unvoting Andante because they are claimed PR, but in this post she's still thinking Andante is scum. Therefore it being an "unvoting andante post" doesn't make it a townpost for Aureal at all.

Why are you explaining Alisae's vote?

I'm explaining why Kawaii shouldn't assume that an unvote = Aureal town. IDK, maybe Alisae can explain it better.

[DragonEater70]

Because it didn't gain her towncred in my eyes and also scum!Aureal could've gotten a free mislim if she pushed Kanna instead?

What's stopping wolf!Aureal from keeping a wolf alive that benefits them. That's what Kanna thinks is going on and I think that's something that COULD be happening cuz like I think Kanna is town.

Sorry I might be dumb or it might be your dysgraphia (sorry IDK how you spell it), but I didn't understand a thing from this post. Could you please repost and clarify it?

[DragonEater70]

Oh okay. What are your thoughts on her so far?

i like er! and while i didn't do a deepdive of aero's iso, i did do a short revisit -- my conclusion is that while they were nothing amazing, it's not like the slot is irredeemable and i feel a lot better about it after alisae arrived. some of the things alisae pointed about aureal "wanting to look good" and the things i pointed out now make aureal's slot *scummy* so i want to go there today

I fully agree with you!
And considering your messed up formatting post, I think we agree we should flip Aureal today, no?

[DragonEater70]

Yeah Dragon, why are you explaining Alisae's vote? Not used to having an active partner?

Alisae, why do you think that I should be able to instantly read Andante correctly?

(I'm at work and can't keep up with all this right now)

This just reeks scum and OMGUS.
But no, I explained it because I wanted to help Kawaii understand something which they obviously missed? I mean just a few posts ago you said you don't think I'm a newbie ("I didn't expect this from

you

"), so it'd make sense for me to try help Kawaii understand things? Because Kawaii was confused?

[DragonEater70]

Well Dragon just took a bellyflop into the scum pool with this post. Seriously, some players here might be confused why you don't vote out a claimed PR here in this setup without a counterclaim,

but I expect

you

to understand.

This indicates that Aureal thinks I'm not a newbie here, btw.

[DragonEater70]

Like seriously Dragon posts are so bad here. Kanna is strong town who was a bit tunneled on Andante but he has no clue why I would be suspicious of Andante at the same time? Wut???

What???
Are you saying that I said "I have no idea why Aureal was suspicious of Andante?"
Because I. Did. Not. Say that.
I was suspicious of Andante myself ffs.

I only explained to Kawaii that you unvoting Andante

doesn't mean

you are not sussing Andante, because based on Kawaii's post which I quoted, it looked like Kawaii thought that unvoting Andante was towny in and of itself, and didn't understand how Alisae could scumread you based on a post where you unvoted Andante.
But unvoting Andante was NAI and I think that Alisae

(not me!)

saw the rest of the post as scummy. So that's what I tried to explain to Kawaii.

You are just really twisting my words now.

[DragonEater70]

I think my lost post's middle paragraph might be a bit of a word salad, so let me explain it graphically.

Kawaii said "why you voting this post in which Aureal is unvoting Andante?"
therefore, Kawaii thought:
unvote Andante > not suspect/push Andante > town

But I explained that:
unvote Andante while attacking her > still suspect/push Andante > not necessarily town by Kawaii's logic.

[DragonEater70]

Attacking my explanation is so fucking weak it's actually laughable.

[DragonEater70]

Oh man
Readlist:

Kawaii, Andante

- conf masons.

Kanna

- almost locktown. Their reads and analysis are really strong. I disagree with the claim that they were scum trying to out PR or confused by the lack of CC. I think they were town tunneling a bit too hard on Andante and geniunely confused about them not being CC'd.

Alisae

- Aeronaut was a bit scummy in fading into the background but actually townie overall. Alisae actually uses a lot of critical thinking and is pretty townie but her strong push on Aureal feels potentially a bit powerwolfy.

Update - Alisae is very active and very strong and is giving off a very strong town feeling, but at the same time feels extremely powerwolfy. Town for now but might go down the list if caught in a mistake.

Elpis

- Early game felt they were fence sitting too much, then they started playing more and did give a townvibe in their tone of their posts, but honestly haven't contributed much, so I'm not really sure about them.

bewolkt

- there's just so little content from them it's driving me mad, but they also kinda feel like their town meta. They had like 2 strong posts the entire game and the rest is just meh. Null - town by default.

Patch

- I was reading them earlier as towny due to conforming to their town meta, but honestly they've contributed less than usual this game and their recent posts about deadline come off as really panicky and weird. I mean I haven't even seen any of their scum meta so how can I judge they are town? Null and although I said they were town by default, they could be scum actually.

Aureal

- Just giving the wrong vibes, like yeah they are confident and confrontational which are usually town characteristics, but they are confrontational about the wrong things, and off their own meta. It's a weak scumread but it's what I have.

Update: her recent push against me is extremely skewed in word-twisty and it's very hard for me to see it as possibly coming from town, so right now she's in the lockscum category.

Quick readlist update

[DragonEater70]

Yeah Dragon, why are you explaining Alisae's vote? Not used to having an active partner?

Alisae, why do you think that I should be able to instantly read Andante correctly?

(I'm at work and can't keep up with all this right now)

This just reeks scum and OMGUS.
But no, I explained it because I wanted to help Kawaii understand something which they obviously missed? I mean just a few posts ago you said you don't think I'm a newbie ("I didn't expect this from

you

"), so it'd make sense for me to try help Kawaii understand things? Because Kawaii was confused?

yeah this 180 was really weird and bad

WDYM?

[DragonEater70]

Like are you agreeing with me or with Aureal?

[DragonEater70]

Not used to having an active partner?

Also this makes sense when I don't even have any completed games as scum - I wouldn't be used to having an inactive scum partner, either.
But I'm nitpicking because it's possible Aureal actually thinks I'm a much more veteran player than I really am, and hasn't bothered looking at my completed games.

[DragonEater70]

EBWOP: this doesn't make sense

[DragonEater70]

didn't clarify sorry! i meant aureal's 180 on you and calling you scum was really weird and bad. i don't think you're ever scum here, dragon

Oh okay

Dragon is town and is never scum here, I stand by that

Dragon is my strongest TR

Don’t yall dare even think about voting Dragon out he’s so obv town right now

Love you <3

[DragonEater70]

Andante has definitely managed to pocket me

[DragonEater70]

dragon is locktown. i want to be loved too

Kanna locktown <3

[DragonEater70]

So I'm being locktowned by everyone, just going to try my hand at being a townleader here, I'll probably suck but let's try.

So let's just do a PoE:
Locktowns:
Andante, Dragon, Kawaii, Kanna
I really don't think they're scum right now:
Alisae, Elpis

By PoE, 2 Scum in: {bewolkt, Aureal, Patchwork}

We flip Aureal today, then based on her flip, nightkill, and

tracker results from Andante

intuition, we find the other scum.
What do ya'll say?

[DragonEater70]

I think my initial posts to Maestro and Aero were matching in tone to what I was responding to. They were experienced players using intimidating language to tell people how to play the game, and I didn't like that at all. Putting lots of votes on someone early is just bad play imo, but Aero was being hypocritical because he was talking about how he wanted people to talk and I totally will scumread hypocrisy. And I thought all his get to know you talk was a tad pockety too. I had plenty of reason to come in hot on him.

I'm going to just review new things after work and give more thoughts because looking at stuff for like 30 seconds at a time is not working well.

Your last line is very very relateable. Disagree with the rest.

Since I like to give people the benefit of the doubt and since you

are

innocent until proven guilty, could you please either make a full readlist, or if it's too much, just post where do you think we should go today? As in who are your top 3 flip candidates, ranked, and why.

[DragonEater70]

so if your poe is 2 people I said I see partnered together… and aureal.. you just want to flip aureal and see what happens?

VOTE: Aureal

I definitely just played a game where you were town, and I am NOT feeling town!Aureal this game lol

I hope this answers your question.

[DragonEater70]

VC 1.15

More Gallerygoers Studying a Painting.
Another Stefan Draschan photo

Kanna (3): Andante, bewolkt, patchwork
Aureal (3): Alisae, KawaiiKame, DragonEater70
Alisae (1): Aureal

Not Voting (2):

Elpis, Kanna,

With 9 alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate

Deadline: March 13 at 1:00 PM US Eastern time.

Countdown: (expired on 2023-03-13 10:00:00)

Mod Notes

• Combined ffery/GiF ISO for vote counts and mod posts here.
  
• Let me know if Vote Counts are in error
  
• I'm pretty much recovered from Covid, and hopefully game moderation will be less bumpy going forward!
  
• 

One thing that strikes me as really weird is that nobody has unvoted Kanna. It makes me feel that Andante might've actually been right with her scumteam.
Will look more into it later.

[DragonEater70]

I noticed all or most of the things you did and came to the same conclusion - it's weird, it could be towny but it could also be scum trying too hard.
since I don't have better scumreads and since you say Aero's replacement is locktown, do you think we should go for the Aureal flip?

How does Dragon not understand that this "Aero slot is locktown now" thing is clearly a joke? It's very weird how he uses that as an excuse to lead into a push on me.

aeronaut has a pikachu pfp

I know. That's your slot. The way you worded that is confusing and makes it sound like maybe you're trying to read if there's scum interactions between patch and your slot. And that doesn't make sense.

Aureal it would be really nice if you could give us a post with some detailed reads!

Yeah I'll work on it but I don't know if it'll be before dinner. I already put off dinner with grandma on Thursday since I'd been so focused on getting my head sorted on this game, so I don't want her to feel neglected.

Qhat I don't like in this post is just how dispersed Aureal is. It feels like she's trying to imply Alisae/Patch scum team and at the same breath say I was scummy.

[DragonEater70]

I noticed all or most of the things you did and came to the same conclusion - it's weird, it could be towny but it could also be scum trying too hard.
since I don't have better scumreads and since you say Aero's replacement is locktown, do you think we should go for the Aureal flip?

How does Dragon not understand that this "Aero slot is locktown now" thing is clearly a joke? It's very weird how he uses that as an excuse to lead into a push on me.

This seems more like Dragon asking about thoughts, not necessarily expressing them himself.

Yeah

[DragonEater70]

You can see the not wanting to take responsibility for the direction of the wagon again in this post, where he handwaves it off as "town wants to go for her". It's like, just Kawaii and Alisae herself at this point I think? And Kawaii changes their mind every five minutes.

The reason I would probably say that I don’t have a good read on dragon right now even if I saw things that made me want to tr it early is mostly because guy has voted I think everything or mostly everything and it’s the kind of thing where I just need to read deeper into what’s going on

It's because this game is so damn swingy.
I don't think I've voted Kawaii, Patch or Kanna at all though.
I am gonna VOTE: Aureal as well btw, because as I said earlier I'm content with limming either you or her, and it seems town wants to go for her.

That's actually a good point.
Maybe I shoupd unvote you for the time being.
UNVOTE: Aureal

[DragonEater70]

Andante is a mason and Patch hasn't posted

True, but what about bewolkt?
also Patch seriously needs to post.

[DragonEater70]

The way alisae is playing right now, I don't exactly trust it, like, she says 1 thing, but then in another post it's like she doesn't fully believe it, idk how to explain it, I'm also not really interested in chasing that down right now, I really just want to lim patch, who alisae seems really opposed to limming

I'm not really opposed?
I said that I wanted to look into it later if I could figure out if I was wrong on Aureal

Well you said it yourself: There's no much time left. Could you please look into Patch NOW?

[DragonEater70]

Spoiler: post

KawaiiKame and Andante/Maestro - Masons, lock town
DragonEater70 - might as well be lock town, he's playing how I'd expect a newer player to play, and there's no way his entrance is like it is, and that recent readslist is like it is, as scum, he might as well also be lock town
Elpis - I'm almost certain Elpis is town, especially with this "lostness" now, like, yeah I'm aware, this is so much so fast, very overwhelming, and the response to it seems a lot more like town than scum.
Kanna/Ircher - I remember seeing Ircher early on like, seems like town tbh with the lack of caring, and like, makes sense with VT, very likely town



So above are all town, below is where it's like "ok, who is the team"

bewolkt
Aureal
Alisae/Aeronaut


patchwork - has been playing like caught scum ever since I started pushing them, so they're lock scum in my books

How Alisae is really ignoring patch kinda has me thinking it could be patch and alisae, but.. hmmm I need a solid read on Aureal, cause Aureal/Alisae interactions is half reminding me of last game with alisae/me (both scum)

but patch and bewolkt are both voting Kanna, why would both scum vote together? but if kanna town, they were thinking an easy lim..



that's where my head is at, reading stuff from yall I'm just like "half these posts have the sole purpose of flooding this thread with useless info" idk, it's hard to follow, I'll probably chill at ISOs, but I figured I'd pull up the player list and see what I'm looking at poe-wise

Agreed about the reasoning of the PoE, but I think I would like to go bewolkt instead of Patch/Alisae.

all that being said, I definitely did TR aero's start to the game, which is why I'm not a huge fan of pushing that direction right now, and saying this is reminding me, a LOT of yall were hard pushing Aero, Alisae comes in, and those voices are non existent? that'll probably be better to look into than ISO tbh (tldr: all the more reason to vote out patch today)

To answer your question about why I stopped voting Alisae:
1. If you read my post below about the Aero ISO, I said I was "pinged" by their reserve. I didn't have a very strong scumread on them at any one one time.
2. I tend to give the most recent replacement much more weight when assessing a slot, because I'm playing with that player, not with the previous one. And Alisae is really really townie IMO.

Tell you the truth, your analysis is a fair one but I feel we're not going to get very far with setup talk RN. I think we should focus on scum hunting, which is not something we actually have a lot of time to do. I thought it might be Aureal, I do have doubts, would like to hear your opinions.
Further, someone suggested it might be Aero and I'm open to the possibility and will ISO them, but also want to hear your opinion on that slot.

About Aureal I'm still feeling town. I'm trying to be cautious because in the previous game I played I was townreading someone too much and then I was wrong so I'm trying to not make the same mistake now and keep my eyes open. It's true that I'm not super sure about her being town, but I still don't see anything that makes me very suspicious.
The only thing that I found a bit weird was the asking others about their own vote. I didn't understand very well the purpose and at some point I thought it might have been scum trying to look more townie by just pointing at her own minor inconsistencies. But other than that most of her posts seem to be trying to contribute in the good direction and coming from her own perspective

hmm can patch be town, and then bewolkt/aero are the scum team? that's kinda the vibe I'm feeling here, bewolkt and aureal are not partners.

So if bewolkt is scum, it's exactly with aero or patch

Further, someone suggested it might be Aero and I'm open to the possibility and will ISO them

How did that ISO go?

That should answer it:

Okay I ISO'd Aero and I have to agree that they have not been providing much content and are a bit too reserved with their opinions and votes in a way that pings me as scummy.
VOTE: Aeronaut

i'll iso aero shortly but no guarantee it won't be dogshit

call me crazy, but I think patch might actually be town
UNVOTE:

Based on that one sentence?
I mean, fair enough.

we need to lim patch here, I *think* it's patch and alisae, seeing patch and bewolkt vote together has me like ehhhh unsure.

patch is definitely caught scum, Alisae is trying to strongarm this aureal lim, and as others have pointed out, we don't exactly gain much from it. no one is like "I see aureal and X partnered" like, I'm pretty confident that means aureal flips town, can we like just lim the obvious scum here?

I'm actually kind of believing patch is just busy. On the other hand, bewolkt has chimed in several times today with questions that haven't gone much of anywhere. I thought the question to Dragon about why he was explaining for Alisae was good since I was weirded out by that too, until Alisae questioned him in turn and he thought that it made Dragon town for making a mistake? My take on Dragon's post was that Dragon was using it to further push me, and his logic in it makes no sense. Like, how do reads like this make sense:

Kanna: thought Andante was still scummy after PR claim and this is fine
Dragon: thought Andante was still scummy after PR claim and this is fine
Aureal: thought Andante was still scummy after PR claim and

this makes no sense

I've got to look back at the later 'clarification' posts but that's what his first one said, so I'll have to read the rest back to see if that feels more like clarification from town or scum realizing they made a boo-boo in trying to make an unjustified push.

Oh yeah, and bewolkt failing to say anything about me other than asking "why Aureal and Elpis" is really pinging me. Everyone and their mom are trying to 'meta' read me based off of one game even though I explained that I react to the game I'm in. Meanwhile bewolkt actually played a game as town with me, unlike Alisae and Andante who played with me as scum and thus weren't really trying to read me. And bewolkt hasn't offered any comment, one way or another, not even a "I don't feel like I can meta-read Aureal." Which would be perfectly appropriate. But sound wishy washy.

Going to dinner shortly, I'll have more later.

If what you're saying is that bewolkt is potentially scum here, I'm in full agreement. Gonna vote them now.

Okay I am going to go forward and VOTE: Bewolkt. This guy has made several posts since the game started, but none of their posts has any opinion stated on any player. If that's not scumlurking, I don't know what is.

I just feel it's a bit difficult to have such strong opinions so early in the game, but when I've questioned some things (like your "goofy" entrance or patchwork's association of more posts=better) it was basically because I thought those things were suspicious. But I will give a more detailed list now, also because I won't be able to post that much during the weekend:

Leaning town

Aureal - Her thoughts seem to be coming from a town perspective and I agree with most of their reasonings
patch - they come off as genuine to me and I like many of their thoughts but tbh there's also a part of me that is a bit puzzled by their way of reasoning. Too many posts which makes it a bit difficult for me to keep track of what their stance is at any moment

Unsure

Ircher - has contributed a bit more than others, and even though I can understand why he might be a bit more conservative, I don't feel I can read him better until he expresses some more thoughts. I don't have the feeling that his 164 is particularly townie and would like him to explain a bit more for example from where does his read on Maestro come from
Aero - they seemed pretty okay to me at first. Also I felt his 91 was in good faith to warn others about a potential lim early in the day. But what has pinged me is the way they've backtracked on Ircher. I don't see what in Ircher's reaction convinces him that is a good to be more conservative (not saying that this is bad by itself, but I am very surprised that Aero bought this after he took a strong stance on this topic)

Null and need more from them

Elpis - feel genuine so far but still need more from this slot
Maestro - I don't see why he's getting so much heat. Many of the points he's made I agree with them so waiting to see more of his thoughts on the game to develop a more grounded read
Kawaii - not much

Main suspect

Dragon - I feel his content has been mostly pushing the more inactive slots and some reactive posts to other player's content, so i'm not sure why he is accusing me from scumlurking. His readlist don't say much to me since I haven't see the reasons behind them. I also don't see from where his read on Maestro comes from or why for example he moved Aero from townread to null then townread again

I remember reading this and going
wow
this is a whole lot of nothin
I bet this is is like super easy to fake as a wolf.

Totally agreed, if you notice my main push on bewolkt earlier in the game started AFTER they gave their readlist.

also, bewolkt's list comes after dragon gave a list.... scum tend to start copying lists when others do them...

VOTE: Bewolkt

VOTE: Bewolkt

[DragonEater70]

I feel that:
Aureal V. Dragon - might be TvT
Aureal V. Alisae - might be TvT

[DragonEater70]

bewolkt has chimed in several times today with questions that haven't gone much of anywhere.

yeah I've noticed, and bewolkt hasn't exactly done too much in terms of "I think X is scum!" all game, seems to be flying under the radar, and reading back, dragon's stance on aero is weirding me out, cause you don't go from THAT confident (seemed like a lot of confidence in what I was reading) to like, completely dropping the SR??

idk, I might be giving dragon too much credit for "being new" or whatever, cause I NEVER see a new person making that entrance post...

and yeah, some of patch's comments I'm like, ehhh like the countdown thing, scum would be well aware, and the "lol I can iso but it'll be bad" it's like, fam I feel that.. hahahah could also explain why I'm getting no traction on my patch push I've basically had going all game..

Oh I think I explained in my last post why I dropped the Alisae SR. The replacement was just THAT towny.

[DragonEater70]

You can see the not wanting to take responsibility for the direction of the wagon again in this post, where he handwaves it off as "town wants to go for her". It's like, just Kawaii and Alisae herself at this point I think? And Kawaii changes their mind every five minutes.

The reason I would probably say that I don’t have a good read on dragon right now even if I saw things that made me want to tr it early is mostly because guy has voted I think everything or mostly everything and it’s the kind of thing where I just need to read deeper into what’s going on

It's because this game is so damn swingy.
I don't think I've voted Kawaii, Patch or Kanna at all though.
I am gonna VOTE: Aureal as well btw, because as I said earlier I'm content with limming either you or her, and it seems town wants to go for her.

That's actually a good point.
Maybe I shoupd unvote you for the time being.
UNVOTE: Aureal

Wha?
The quote is completely messed up.
One sec.

[DragonEater70]

Oh NVM it's not

[DragonEater70]

I'm explaining why Kawaii shouldn't assume that an unvote = Aureal town. IDK, maybe Alisae can explain it better.

Nah, that's not actually what you said. This is what you said.

Why you voting aureal in this unvoting andante post?

Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense.

What is "it" here that doesn't make any sense, if not my actions in that unvoting post?

Welp.
I guess you caught me?
I'm not scum though, just not reading my own posts (and also not reading yours very carefully).

Like, IIRC I was voting you while making that post, and I think I already said I didn't see the actual context of the post Kawaii was replying too? Because I 100% believe that no one can be scumread just for continuing to scumread someone after they claim PR. I never stop suspecting people when they claim PR.

[DragonEater70]

Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense.

Well Dragon just took a bellyflop into the scum pool with this post. Seriously, some players here might be confused why you don't vote out a claimed PR here in this setup without a counterclaim, but I expect

you

to understand.

Oh man I didn't see the context of that post, my bad
I just answered Kawaii's question without looking.

@Aureal

[DragonEater70]

I'm not sure why you're so hung up on this. Didn't you say you wanted to talk to me? Now you just want reads? I just posted reads two days ago, and I think I'm being pretty clear about the ways in which they're changing as I go through this, so I don't think you should expect massive surprises.

I actually disagree, reads change and evolve throughout play and it's sometimes a bit hard to track them based on posts only. If you post a full readlist with an explanation for each read, it makes it much easier to understand where you're at.
For instance, right now I don't have a clue what you're thinking about Patch, and my idea of what you think about bewolkt is vague at best.

[DragonEater70]

I think anyone can actually refer to the game that Aureal posted, look at my ISO from there, compare it to what I have here, and see literally 2 different things.
A literal night and day difference

Which game was it?

[DragonEater70]

A lot of patch is doing is going after people who they felt like having produced enough and trying to get them to produce more.
If they're a wolf they're poking a lot of sleeping bears but something I would probably do if I was patch was if I asked for someone's reads or thoughts and I got them, if possible I would try to look for ways to try to use those thoughts against them. He seems like he actually cares about solving so far

You mean if you were scum patch or town patch?

[DragonEater70]

Oh wow we actually have 30 odd hours. That's enough for Aureal to post her reads, Patch to come back and post their thoughts, and us to decide on someone to lim.

[DragonEater70]

I'm done.

I think the solve is bewolkt Aureal

Come vote bewolkt with me and Andante then.

[DragonEater70]

I'm done.

I think the solve is bewolkt Aureal

Come vote bewolkt with me and Andante then.

I will if Aureal and/or Kanna go for it!

Why do you care if Aureal votes for bewolkt or not, if Aureal is your solve anyway?

[DragonEater70]

I actually lol'd here. Well done.

[DragonEater70]

Qhat I don't like in this post is just how dispersed Aureal is. It feels like she's trying to imply Alisae/Patch scum team and at the same breath say I was scummy.

No actually I was literally just asking Alisae what was up with that. Because if she like, actually forgot that 'pikachu' is her slot and was trying to read a scum interaction with it and patch then that seems like a town thing.

Ah, interesting take.

[DragonEater70]

Updated Reads (not for Alisae! )

Kanna:
No changes here, the thinking I could be trying to pocket her makes plenty of sense and I expect I'd be very worried about the same thing in the reverse situation.

Elpis:
Still pretty much the same, indecisive new town struggling with how much weight to give to their own reads vs. hoping more experienced people have it figured out.

patchwork:
Slightly higher not because of anything they've done but because I'm PoEing it down to the last three as being the most likely places to find scum, though with a modest chance of patch being in there still.

----- I have no thoughts on the likelihood of any particular combination of these three below, I am running ragged right now and need to sleep -----

DragonEater70:
Said earlier that the questioning me over my thought experiment was good, but with 333- the bad push reasons begin. " Aureal is actually saying that you shouldn't call anyone out for inactivity at this stage. Which is very weird because they do exactly that ater on." Obviously 'at this stage' and 'later on' are totally different things so I'm very baffled how someone could genuinely write this. I called this out already in 398 and Dragon backed down with "I am inclined to believe / agree with most of what you said"
In 787, 791 he starts accusing me of being scum and OMGUS and that I'm twisting his words for reacting with disbelief to his post 719 that says "Maybe because Aureal is simultaneously unvoting Andante and throwing shade at them in the same post? It doesn't make any sense." It's like he has finally sensed the opportunity to seriously push me and over-committed to making me seem bad because my post should make complete sense to him, a person who was also unvoting and still throwing shade at Andante. In 792 he actually swears in his refutal of my calling this out, which seems really out of character for him. Then in 931 he's apparently walking back his reaction and saying that he was not reading posts- his own or mine- very carefully. Unless this is sarcasm? Which would also be pretty out of character for him.

bewolkt:
Basically already said this one in 838. I really expect more from bewolkt at this stage. He's just not contributing to relevant content.

Alisae:
No I am not going to drop my scumread because Alisae is here now. I'm going to cling to it harder, because I know she's going to mess with everyone as scum. I couldn't read her as scum in our previous game, I have no confidence in being able to foil her machinations. She's still managing to give me some doubt in that I can see Dragon/bewolkt could be a team, but wow her impatience sure doesn't make me want to give her any more benefit of the doubt.

(On that note, Andante, if you're so sure it's Alisae and bewolkt I think flipping Alisae first would be better because, uh, I don't think you're going to be around tomorrow to help push her and I don't think people are going to care too much to listen to me. You see what she's doing right now?)

Dude you are blatantly ignoring 937.
I wasn't taking back any reaction, I was quoting a much earlier post explaining that my original reaction was based on a post without context.
With the context there's no scumread, without the context there is. Is it that hard to see?

[DragonEater70]

pikachu is the ceo of nintendo

What???!
I thought Mario was the CEO and Pikachi was the assistant finance director.

[DragonEater70]

beo is a good elimination today

Then vote bewo

It's bewo not beo

[DragonEater70]

Hi everyone!

There has been a lot of content in the last few hours. It was Saturday night here in Europe that's why I wasn't here since I had plans + sleep. I will give a list with my reads to explain where I'm at right now but just wanted to address first that I feel the push on me it's mostly motivated on:

- My amount/style of posting: Maybe I should be posting more random thoughts and stuff to increase my post counts idk. I like to question others on things that I feel will advance the game and I don't have a problem with giving my thoughts when I'm question about them. But I also don't like to accuse others if I'm unsure and in general at day 1 I feel I'm mostly trying to figure out the other players. That's why I relate for example to Kawaii in that I also think she feels similarly but I understand that some frustration might come out of it (like I was at one point starting to suspect her). In any case, anyone can have a look if you want at my two completed games here: Newbie 2110 (full completed game) and Newbie 2113 (where I entered as a replacement in D1). I was also poked there for some reasons that are similar so feel free to take a look at them if you'd like.

- My association with Aureal: I can't believe people are scumreading me because we were both townreading each other at some point. Not because I even defended her or anything. But what I'm most baffled by it's that this is coming from someone that posted 732 and 733. Don't look for pre-flip associations but at the same time I warn you that I am going to be hypocritical and use the associations to prove 2 are wolves.

I think it's pretty easy to look for what one thinks wolves do instead of what wolves actually do because identifying what wolves actually do is really hard! It takes a lot of experience and understanding of the game to be able to identify why it is someone is a wolf and it's really easy to posts support one alignment in reality it doesn't and it's something that can happen as any alignment

So if Aureal and me are wolves, why are we doing that?

I read your post.
Let me ask you this question: what is your suggested scumteam, if it's not you and Aureal?

[DragonEater70]

yeah that whole thing is just.. nothing lol also, why explain the unsure more than town leans?? if for any reason other than to "hide" your partner...

hmm here's like one of the few posts of "stuff" I'm not super impressed, definitely can see bewolkt + aero team with this, cause your early read on a partner is not going to be strong scum or strong town, feels like a lot of explaining for "unsure" like, why unsure over null? like, you're putting unsure above null... as if to imply the null are scummier? well.. 2 of the null are masons..

I wanted to make a difference between players that I was unsure about their alignment (I saw things that made me tr them but also some that I found suspicious) and those players that I felt I could not have formed a read on them and I needed to hear more from them. It's not necessarily that one is above the other or anything. And because of that I explained more the unsure because I had conflicted feelings about them so I elaborated a bit on them while on the others it was more 'need more', 'feeling good'...

also, bewolkt's list comes after dragon gave a list.... scum tend to start copying lists when others do them...

VOTE: Bewolkt

And I gave my list because Dragon wanted me to contribute more, so I explained where I was at that moment. But if that hadn't happened I probably wouldn't have done that at that point

Would you have given it at any point though?

[DragonEater70]

i just finished reading up and bew is a scummier than i remember but my gut is saying they're just scummy town.... or maybe i'm just confbiased in my aureal/elpis solve? idk

i still think flipping aureal is the move? her latest posts feel weird to me -- specifically how they're scumreading dragon. i'll admit i didn't read what they were arguing about in Depth cause i'm tired, but it seems to be about small details and that strikes me as weird. it looked a bit like aureal picked a fight with him for no reason. maybe i'll take a look at this tomorrow when i'm less tired

as for her saying alisae is scum... e just seems so towny, i cannot realistically buy it right now

also pikachu

Kanna, my goodness I felt the "maybe I'm bad at mafia" in my heart, because I felt the same thing reading through a lot of those posts. A lot of this analysis is beyond me, and I certainly feel new reading through them. I definitely felt some town kinship with that, lol. If it's any consolation, I think you've been doing good, and expressive, and I appreciate your candor.

this is really sweet though! thank you! and i want to let you know i think you're doing amazing for your first game regardless of your alignment!! <3

I actually agree that Aureal flip is the move, she's probably scum with either Bewolkt or Elpis but in either case she's scum.
VOTE: Aureal

[DragonEater70]

Wait so people actually think it's Alisae/Kanna?

Can I please get an explanation of why you think that?

[DragonEater70]

@Patch look at my signature btw

[DragonEater70]

Andante is a mason and Patch hasn't posted

True, but what about bewolkt?
also Patch seriously needs to post.

i have a life lol

Not saying you don't but I needed more from you.

[DragonEater70]

[/uv]

[DragonEater70]

Ugh that didn't work.UNVOTE:

[DragonEater70]

Okay guys do you know what we need?
We actually need to work together.
I feel we are extremely dispersed as town with more or less everyone doing their own team and no agreement is being reached.

Please have a look at this link (it's a pretty short read):
viewtopic.php?t=90488

I think we should do what this guy says and elect a town leader who will just choose a lim and we all agree beforehand to follow the lim.
I'm nominating myself and Andante.
You guys can vote for whoever you want to be townleader.

[DragonEater70]

@Patch look at my signature btw

THATS GLORIOUS i love that

Thankssss

[DragonEater70]

he's

probably just a slip but like

pedit: please let's NOT have a town leader, that encourages sheeping and that fucking sucks

Please read the post though. It explains ehy sheeping isn't always bad.

[DragonEater70]

Wait so people actually think it's Alisae/Kanna?

Can I please get an explanation of why you think that?

yeah like beo idk how you came to that conclusion lmao

Maybe tbey are scum.

[DragonEater70]

Okay guys do you know what we need?
We actually need to work together.
I feel we are extremely dispersed as town with more or less everyone doing their own team and no agreement is being reached.

Please have a look at this link (it's a pretty short read):
viewtopic.php?t=90488

I think we should do what this guy says and elect a town leader who will just choose a lim and we all agree beforehand to follow the lim.
I'm nominating myself and Andante.
You guys can vote for whoever you want to be townleader.

This is very interesting. But wouldn't it be the same? Us having to do majority voting to choose a leader? Do you think we won't be disperse for that? But if I had to choose it would probably be one of the Masons since they are already confirmed town

No it's the opposite of dispersing. If we all agree to vote whoever Andante chooses to vote, for instance, that ends the discussion right there.

[DragonEater70]

I'll repeat that I am nominating myself and Andante for town leaders. Vote now on your phones!

[DragonEater70]

patch is town

lmaoo me leader? have you seen my reads?? voting me for leader might as well be scum claiming

Then vote me :shrug:

[DragonEater70]

*squint* man i hate bewos 1053

like that view of the gamestate is so warped I feel like we’re reading 2 different games -- in fact, my reads are literally the exact opposite apart from dragon. and I have no idea what they’re talking about with dragon suspecting I had a connection with aureal?

Huh? What are you talking about? My reads are very far from being the opposite of yours.