Newbie 1769: Happy New Year! (Post-Game)

[-Grey-]

#582 casts shade but doesnt claim towntell or scumtell, just "tell". mbg's noob, implies NOOBtell to me. #582 feels light anti-town to me -- either greys ignored everything up to this point while reading through or hes scumteam, otherwise hed realize hes probably seeing mbg's repeatedly stated inexperience with mafia lol

Caution tell is a textbook scumtell, and the fact Matt is inexperienced MAKES IT MORE likely to be valid, NOT LESS, because he isn't likely to know about it and Scum are naturally cautious.

[-Grey-]

#586 is further contentless shade casting on mbg. while i agree its indicative of something, i did not and do not agree its enough to even FoS mbg rn, we need to focus on our bigger scumbags. its also an ULTRA-easy read, which is why i was dismissing peoples concerns with gayreen changing mind on the tb l-1 -- thats a copout read, it stands out, grabs attention and means nothing. scum can use it to pretend they have real opinions

Not contentless at all. I was pointing out Matt being cautious scum.

Noobscum Matt and Casserole partner makes a lot of sense, too.

[-Grey-]

#592 is stating the obvious in a dickish manner. arguably nai but im leaning scum with it combined with the rest.

Hi. I'm Grey. I'm an asshole that find scum by being an asshole. Ask Giggles.

[cassielle]

the problem with the caution tell and the whole "why would you change your mind on a slot once it replaces" thing is that both of those arguments can be turned right back on you with GAYreenHamster showing caution tell and you replacing. half of this read is on the basis of GAYreens actions as well -- the difference, to me, is that GAYreen was genuinely p active, youve only just started exceeding his post count for example, while rakkar had 2 one-line (!!!!!) posts that were both strongly NAI by the time he replaced out, thats not something you can read from.

and unfortunately you have to accept that i have a point in questioning one or both of those arguments or accept they apply just as much to you. thats just logic.

p-edit: im finding this very OMGUS in general, this is how an active, aggressive scum slot would act imo -- they get the focus on them and they start throwing things right back.

ill remind you what i told rask and schadd_: i want you to convince me. treating me as def scum for putting your ISO under the microscope is not convincing, its buckling under pressure.

[-Grey-]

#609 feels like its pushing for an immediate lynch. its trying to corner rask into a "well thats scum claim" position. i even gave rask an out from that in 610 because W T F. i dont mind that sort of play but we have A FULL WEEK OF DAYTIME, you corner someone that way on the last day of day phase rofl you dont do that shit midway through, wtf??? scum af here

Wrong. Once you find scum, you lynch scum. Deadline is irrelevant. Putting off the Lynch simply because of the deadline only serves to give scum extra time to wiggle out of the noose.

Once again, this can be confirmed by a metadive. But you don't care about the truth, all you care about is who you can make look like scum.

#629 dismisses at least three separate concerns with mbg as "nah its all cool" including 582-592! wtf? NAI but mbg and -grey- are going to be opposite factions p sure

#637 why did it take this long for this? why? rask claimed a full HOUR prior. W T F. and why the hell put pressure on tb again? what is the point here? what more is going to come of this? i make this point several times around here, saying "no more than l-2" and gbT and -Grey- are BOTH dismissive of my point here, but gbT is trying to allay concerns while -Grey- (#644) is sayingthat everything points to TB=scum anyway so who gives a fuck. S C U M

someone convince me im reading GAYreen+-Grey- wrong pls? Creature? anyone? im p sure you guys cant.[/quote]

done[/quote]

[cassielle]

im going to settle my case with #729. specifically because of:

Wrong. Once you find scum, you lynch scum. Deadline is irrelevant. Putting off the Lynch simply because of the deadline only serves to give scum extra time to wiggle out of the noose.

this is an anti-town attitude. town wants more time for more info. scum wants to push a quick lynch. im not budging on this unless i hear a REALLY, really good counterargument from one of my townreads.

[-Grey-]

#629 dismisses at least three separate concerns with mbg as "nah its all cool" including 582-592! wtf? NAI but mbg and -grey- are going to be opposite factions p sure

Cast shade and then say NAI. Brilliant.

[-Grey-]

#637 why did it take this long for this? why? rask claimed a full HOUR prior. W T F. and why the hell put pressure on tb again? what is the point here? what more is going to come of this? i make this point several times around here, saying "no more than l-2" and gbT and -Grey- are BOTH dismissive of my point here, but gbT is trying to allay concerns while -Grey- (#644) is sayingthat everything points to TB=scum anyway so who gives a fuck. S C U M

A whole hour?! Jiminy crickets!

If Rask had been lynched in that hour, we'd have had the d2 lynch mapped out, I wasn't at all worried about having my vote on him while I decided where I wanted my vote to go.

Painting my actions as scummy here is disingenuous as fuck.

[-Grey-]

also re: 578 it ignores the possibility of scumhunting which is a valid reason to vote someone who isnt your top scumread (see e.g. my current vote)

Bullshit.

If he was scumhunting, he'd have wanted to lynch the most objectively scummier person which by his started theory was me since I might be scum with two different people whereas lynching either of those people wouldn't even clear me anyway.

[-Grey-]

i dont really buy meta arguments USUALLY (outside of very hard, near infallible town/scumread meta like creature), so im going to say no, that doesnt matter here, it still feels like a scum mindset to me.

Proof that all you care about is who you can make look like scum.

[cassielle]

re: 731, its weird but had explanations from both sides and also that are just completely null. so NAI, by default. opposite factions means if one flips red the other flips green from where im sitting.

only focusing on the least important part of the argument in 732which seems to be a common theme no matter whos trying to tear my arguments down. either i structure arguments well or theres an art to deconstructing an argument that involves picking at the most unimportant elements thereof?

im not really talking to -grey- anymore this is for people who come in afterward

p-edit and re: 733 it reinforces my anti-town read of -grey-'s actions

[cassielle]

would like to note -grey- never bothered responding to 701, 707, 709 thus far. skipped over them. looks like cherrypicking the weakest parts of the weakest posts from where im standing.

(re:734 so people dont think im hypocritical on cherrypicking -- that post ignores my approach to gbT/schadd_/rask/mbg and i dont think theres any point in trying to convince -Grey- that my read on him is genuine and has honest motivations atm: hes convinced of what hes convinced and no argument shall sway)

[-Grey-]

Why should I read what you want me to read when you straight up refused to read content that would contradict your bullshit push and show that it's playstyle indicative?

Fucking hypocrite.

[schadd_]

a lot of stuff from cass strikes me as confirmation bias rather than intentional misrepresentation.

@675: i agree that gayreen was quite low-content and made a lot of easy jabs. the inconsistency in character thing doesn't entirely make sense to me, but i see it regarding his finnicky/unfinnicky voting.

678 scumslip is the word of the day, isn't it. also a lot of this hinges on skimming being scummy, which i don't think is the case. wanting to post soon is pretty towny; scum tends to be more calculated. i guess, more so, it's NAI (which i know know what it means).

eh. i could consider the lynch, though. atm, gayreen is kinda on the scum side to me (i was expecting more to come out of him at my last list, which ofc it never did) and -grey- is angry, and kinda null. townish posting tendencies (simple callouts, responding frequently & self-consistently) but getting a bit too frustrated with cass's arguments (she's done that with, like, everybody, bub)

staying on TB; i want him to be at L-1 when he explains the reads. am v excited

[cassielle]

i dont read meta as a general rule. i never checked rasks meta. gbT and i think someone else here i did use meta --- but only as my weakest argument for them because meta to me is something you can analyze and use to work in favor of being townread even on scumteam. creature's meta is so hard-core yes-or-no (no interpretation to it) that it would be silly, even illogical to ignore it.

and regarding your meta in particular:

1: the first time you brought it up was on a very weak argument of mine. i dont care if the meta crushes it, theres OTHER parts.

2: the second time you brought it up -- if its true, i would be willing to say that your meta and mine work so poorly with each other than one of us would naturally be a d1 lynch in any game we were in. to me, shutting down info is ALWAYS anti-town. shortening the day dramatically is ALWAYS anti-town. i would read that meta and say "so its a player that personally id want to policy lynch because nothing about where theyre coming from feels pro-town to me at all no matter what side theyre on"

3: you never even linked to a representative game like gbT did on a couple occasions in this very game, which makes me think youd be hoping id dig into a couple games shallowly, get exhausted from info overload and accept it at face value. notthat that would help this, see 1 and 2.

4: finally, those posts i want you to read arent meta. they are directly relevant to this discussion, in this game, in this very conversation in fact. that is a pretty considerable difference.

p-edit: ill address your post separately schadd_! just for sanity after the post explosion haha

[-Grey-]

but getting a bit too frustrated with cass's arguments (she's done that with, like, everybody, bub)

What pissed me off was her blatant misrepping of my play on multiple occasions.

[cassielle]

ok so NAI means Not Alignment Indicative from what ive gathered. it means it can be read null, town, or scum and all of them abooout equally. its a way of saying "this post doesnt matter in the long run" or (where i include it in master posts) "this post MIGHT not matter in the long run but im putting it there for consistency" (i skipped no posts that werent fluff in any of these masterposts)

i can agree on your interpretation of skimming, but very generally speaking scum skims because they know everything. they dont need to read deeply, because they know who is town and who is scum. scum readlists will usually be incoherent, long on tone, or gut reads when examined, and their source is usually pulled from someones ass, pulled from a townie's post,or pulled from a townie's post and rearranged around the nullreads

i dont mind you sitting on tb till he brings forth his arguments, but do consider -gray-'s intention to end the day quickly and what precisely that means for town if you would

[-Grey-]

^ that kind of shit is exactly what I'm talking about.

She is banging on that drum like it's her fucking swan song, but the inarguable fact of matter is that once I find scum, I want scum dead period and that giving scum time just gives them opportunity to escape.

Casserole is only concerned about superficial appearances.

[cassielle]

re:742 id argue the opposite is true -- -Gray-'s scumhunting thus far has said "mbg is -- nah hes ok", "rask is scum" (well when half the town agrees you dont necessarily stand back and ignore where theyre coming from, town OR scum), and "cass is scum" (because i put him under the microscope -- i did the same thing to gbT and schadd_ and rask and to a lesser degree mbg, i made masterposts for tb and shade, etc).

hes not seeming superduper strong on the tb wagon that he was sitting on, judging by his ISO, and has never gone into detail on it (implying light sheeping) and has shade at the same place with just as little explanation (again).

ive approached almost every slot at least once with a large coherent argument. thus far the majority have handled it beautifully, schadd_ began slightly defensive but cleared himself after he realized i wasnt just trying to smash him flat -- i genuinely wanted to be convinced. gbT took my HEAVY scum read (i came in on them stronger with a weaker case ftr @-Grey-) fairly lightly and calmly explained my concerns. mbg saw the best way out was through and followed the examples of those prior to him.

rask on the other hand got ultra defensive, sidestepped questions at least once, and then got desperate and flaily when the pressure built. and -grey- has gone completely OMGUS from a stronger case presented in calmer wording than i approached gbT with.

im going to let that sit in the open. you guys tell me how you want to read those conclusions.

[cassielle]

TB should be coming back soon here (next hour or two). i dont want an updated reads list until he explains his first one. that first one looks ultrashallow, and i cannot understand the reasoning behind some of his reads (e.g. schadd_). i want that original explanation before anything else. catching up on the thread even is, imo, optional prior to that explanation.

we need to know WHY TB stood where he did yesterday before we can make an opinion on where he stands today

[cassielle]

note: this is judging by his usual schedule and his promise of updating us tonight

[-Grey-]

2: the second time you brought it up -- if its true, i would be willing to say that your meta and mine work so poorly with each other than one of us would naturally be a d1 lynch in any game we were in. to me, shutting down info is ALWAYS anti-town. shortening the day dramatically is ALWAYS anti-town. i would read that meta and say "so its a player that personally id want to policy lynch because nothing about where theyre coming from feels pro-town to me at all no matter what side theyre on"

This doesn't change the fact that you are calling things I do as town scummy when the fact of the matter is it's simply playstyle.

Disagreeing on theory doesn't make the other player scum. Misrepping the other person's play instead of actually wanting the truth, however...

[-Grey-]

3: you never even linked to a representative game like gbT did on a couple occasions in this very game, which makes me think youd be hoping id dig into a couple games shallowly, get exhausted from info overload and accept it at face value. notthat that would help this, see 1 and 2.

I have two completed town games.

Two

You are full of shit.

[-Grey-]

4: finally, those posts i want you to read arent meta. they are directly relevant to this discussion, in this game, in this very conversation in fact. that is a pretty considerable difference.

I have no incentive to work with someone that doesn't even try to see things from my perspective.

[-Grey-]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69704

No clicking on the Dead spoiler...

What's my alignment?