Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think CCGeek's push on you is too inconsistent to be scum, Black-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4
I think mafia tend to be hyper careful about their read progressions
CCGeek pushing you what looks to be semi-seriously and then calling it an RVS vote feels a little too sloppy to come from scum who was either looking to seriously push you or just joke vote you. That's more likely to come from a townie who has real thoughts and feelings that might seem to contradict each other
especially early in the game I think mafia are very self conscious about things like this-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think Black is scum.
I scum read the tone on Black's entrance like some other people did but her response to her wagon and to me in particular has solidified that read a lot.
Some people had a bad reaction to this, for good reason. It's a read that apologizes for itself. When people roll mafia they can often enter a game with a bit of a sense of subconscious guilt. The red role PM weighs on their conscience. It might seem ridiculous to read this much into a "probably" and a "?," but combined with the fact that Black seems like a fairly confident player, I think it betrays someone who is (whether consciously or subconsciously) a little worried that throwing out a read like that is going to be viewed negatively by the other players in the game.In post 28, Black wrote: Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?
In post 54, Black wrote: I don't mind T3's vote on me. I like that he admitted he was grasping at straws to start discussion
CCG's vote feels bad though. Putting me at e-2 by piggybacking off of someone grasping at straws and doubling down on their point feels off
I think this progression too shows Black is feeling a little self-conscious to be the first one to put a read out there. If Black scum read's CCG's vote on her, why doesn't she vote him in 54? Instead, she waits until she's read and acknowledged Aureal's 51 that shades CCGeek to jump on the wagon. I think if Black had a pure and innocent heart and actually felt bad about CCG's vote she'd put a vote there without any hesitation.In post 56, Black wrote:
You may be right hereIn post 51, Aureal wrote: CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?
Oh right because you're scum.
VOTE: CCGeek
I also think specifically calling out "putting me at e-2" is slightly scum indicative. It is consistently more likely for town players to not pay attention to where the votes are at when they throw down a vote. Scum players have to be very careful about how they are perceived and how the timing of votes might look later down the line. And while I don't think it is necessarily scum indicative for Black to *be aware* of how many votes she has accumulated, I do think it is scum indicative that she used that as a point against CCGeek, as if she found something objectively scummy with which to discredit his push with.
Black even then later acts like it doesn't make a difference whether CCGeek meant to put her at E-2 or not, despite using the fact that CCGeek had put her to E-2 as a point of suspicion against CCGeek in post 54.In post 63, Black wrote:In post 60, CCGeek wrote: Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?
What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?In post 61, CCGeek wrote: OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that
This doesn't read like someone who is genuinely trying to figure out CCGeek's alignment, it reads like someone trying to get CCGeek in a "Gotcha!"
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Anyway, I imagine Black is feeling like she's under a lot of pressure for not a lot of reason pretty early in this game. But, I think if she was town, she'd more interested in trying to determine the alignments of the people on her wagon. Instead, she seems more interested in discrediting all the votes on her. I think this is evident in her pushes on both CCGeek and myself.
Even her read on T3, she's like "oh it's towny because it's grasping for straws and just trying to start discussion," which discredits the actual read. The moment someone seriously scum reads her, she pushes back and discredits.
For one thing, I think it's weird she goes after me for a "perspective slip" despite CCGeek arguably doing the same thing by saying that Black is "tunneling" in 95, normally something you'd say to a person you think is town. It's for this reason that I don't really believe that she thinks I'm scum, or that she's genuinely trying to parse CCGeek's alignment.
As far as this post goes, it's just loaded with scum rhetoric.In post 108, Black wrote:
I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing 98 comes from someone that thinks I'm probably scum. You conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others and then spoke to me as if you were trying to convince me that CCG is town. If I'm your #1 suspect then it doesn't make sense for you to address me this way. I don't like this at allIn post 105, Dannflor wrote: I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4
You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both
VOTE: Dannflor
I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?
I think "You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both" doesn't make sense as a real town thought. I think at this point town!Black would have an idea in her head of which is more likely. She'd be constructing a world that makes my behavior and CCGeek's behavior make sense. Calling out two very different worlds (me and CCG as scum buddies and CCG as town) without really giving either one more credence than the other makes it seem like she isn't really considering each of these worlds and what they might mean. Instead, this feels like a rhetorical device to both discredit all the people on her wagon and make it seem more likely that I'm scum by offering up two different ways that I could be scum in this scenario.
I don't think Black actually believes that because I challenged her read on CCG, that means that I made a perspective slip that makes me scum. I think she feels like she has to push me in this way and if she were town I think there would be more of an attempt to see where I'm coming from.
There's not even an attempt really to build a coherent case against me. Instead, 108 is filled with a lot of statements that are supposed to make it seem more believable that I'm scum, with my "convenient hop on to a wagon built by others" thrown in there as if that makes sense as a reason for me to be scum "I don't like this at all" thrown in there to make the read seem more real, and "you're either scum with CCG or scum playing us both" thrown in there to make me seem more likely to be scum. I don't think any of these statements reveal that Black has genuinely thought about my alignment and what is most likely to be happening in this game.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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anyway tl;dr I'd like to kill Black today
I think CCG is town and I think T3 is town-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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[T3, CCGeek]
[Generic]
[CCS, Aureal, Dunnstral] - null
[iamveryhappy]
[Black]
I think this is about where I'm at
iamveryhappy I just didn't really like how they randomly popped in to be like "I don't like E-2s"-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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you can not like forcing a hammer but idk what is the point of saying you don't like e-2s in a game where it takes 5 votes to elim
we can't really wagon anyone if we're not allowed to e-2 people-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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unofficial VCIn post 135, Generic wrote: I’m still waiting for some sort of vote count.
Black (3): iamveryhappy, T3, Dannflor
CCGeek (2): Aureal, camelCasedSnivy
Generic (1): iamveryhappy
Dannflor (1): Black
Not Voting (3): Dunnstral, Generic, CCGeek-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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woops fixed*
Black (2): T3, Dannflor
CCGeek (2): Aureal, camelCasedSnivy
Generic (1): iamveryhappy
Dannflor (1): Black
Not Voting (3): Dunnstral, Generic, CCGeek-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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what is the purpose of making this post?In post 146, Black wrote: I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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do/did you suspect Generic because of that?
if you think scum would do that to pocket you I'm not sure why you wouldn't wait to see who would go along with it and who wouldn't-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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tbh if you are actually town black i would expect 0 scum to be pushing you right now and scum to be sitting on the sidelines-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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what makes you so sure there must be at least one pushing you right now?
why couldn't scum be like... camelCase / Dunnstral and they just aren't doing anything yet-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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idk i read posts like 162 through the lens of someone trying mimic town thoughts but if I'm wrong I'd still probably be reading things that way
I'll take a break from a thread and try to reset
there is a world where scum just haven't done anything of note yet-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Estimated completed games: 48
Have you had victories in a mafia team?: Yes
Favourite alignment: Town - but I try very hard to win regardless of my alignment.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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aureal what do you think i should look for specifically in black's town game that is different from her scum game-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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neither of you should have claimed
but i think the way generic did it was self-righteous
whilst black's 206 felt performative-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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tbh it is like mechanically optimal to elim between generic and black now
I would strongly prefer a black elimination
generic!scum doesn't need to make a spectacle out of pushing black!town when me and Dunn were already doing that for him-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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We should still kill Black today.
For one thing, we have two vanilla townie claims. I'd really prefer not to run up another player and out a PR if we think there is scum in either of these two claims. And I do. Looking at the claims, I think the the way Generic did it, as kind of a self-righteous taunt towards Black, probably comes from town. It throws away a powerful play by mafia for no reason to out PRs and Generic wasn't in a position where he was facing any pressure. It's a bad play, to be sure, but I think he's town for it.
On the other hand, Black didn't even explicitly claim.
In this post, Black betrays that she is not a TPR by saying she's fine with dying. The problem is, I think if Black was actually town she'd think about the ramifications of claiming here. Why did she say the bolded line? I think the purpose is to seem like she doesn't care about dying and so that people will read that as town.In post 206, Black wrote: so you were cool with being patient and letting the day play out until i pushed you, now suddenly you call for thunderdome and are rallying everyone to vote?
yeah, Generic is probably just scum here.i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway
Why does being at e-1 mean Black should be eliminated first? Why is she actually okay with going first as town? As I've been told, Black is *not* a confident player in her scum and town reads as town. So, why now is she so confident that she is willing to trade her own life on this read?
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To be clear,@Aureal, I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" or however you are representing my read. In fact, it's kind of the opposite.
A lot of Black's posting this game is focused around *looking town,* not being town. I would expect posting more in line with this game: viewtopic.php?t=90662&user_select%5B%5D=36961 if Black were town. Where Black is pretty unfiltered, her posts are on the shorter side, she asks probing questions, posts half baked thoughts... etc. That seems to be Black's town game from what I've researched about her meta.
That is not the same as her posting this game. Her posting this game feels overwrought and LAMIST.
Here are some quotes from a previous scum!Black game: viewtopic.php?p=13681045&f=11&t=90607&u ... #p13681045
Spoiler:
I guess the best way to summarize the way I am reading Black's meta.
scum!Black cares about getting town read, and she posts stuff that she thinks will get her town read.
town!Black seems to care quite a bit less about getting town read and more about solving the game (this is probably why she gets scum read more as town than as scum )
Also, here's an interesting post by Black from a town!Black game, especially considering the first post of the game that started garnering Black scum reads.
I throw out these exact same generic TRs when I'm wolf. Like all the timeIn post 137, Brian Skies wrote:
I feel comfortable townreading this slot. Their posts feel genuine to me and I can vibe with their analysis.
In addition, here is a bunch of Black posts made this game that I think fit the model of Black explicitly trying to get town read through her posting:In post 28, Black wrote: Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?
In post 146, Black wrote: I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAPIn post 206, Black wrote: i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anywayIn post 239, Black wrote: you won't be able to weasel your way out of getting faded D2 and town will already be down 3 members assuming the NK goes through
all of these posts are just very, "looks like im gonna die oh well! look at me im so town!" it feels very disingenuous and from looking over Black's town games, it really doesn't look like the way town!Black posts.In post 251, Black wrote: unfortunately it doesn't look like i'll be getting the pleasure
I also just think her posts are kind of overwrought. I first noticed this with 108, where there's a lot of extra words used to reinforce Black's confidence in her scum read on me like "I don't like this at all" and the "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others" lines.
I think some of her posts arguing with Generic have also been scummy, like 247, where she makes a pedantic argument that because she used the words "probably" and "likely" she's actually not very sure about her scum read on Generic. This is despite the fact Black has implicitly said she's fine with trading her life for Generic's, she's apparently that confident in her scum read on Generic.
I don't think 255 or 258 are particularly towny either. Black is using the logic that Generic shouldn't want to be elimmed first, despite once again having just said that she is *fine* with being elimmed first. I think it's overly conciliatory considering the tone of the argument thus far and Black is looking to be seen as the reasonable one, not actually determine Generic's alignment.-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I don't think a black town flip would make you scum
I'd definitely reassess but I think you're town independently
I don't really know what you are saying here
Black has all but actually claimed
if I was role fishing I'd try to run up someone outside of you two-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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because it doesn't read like an emotional response
it reads a intentionally casual-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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this does not read as an emotional "heat of the moment" responseIn post 206, Black wrote: yeah, Generic is probably just scum here. i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway
"i'm at e-1 anyway"
that's someone trying to be extra casual about the possibility of dying-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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like i feel like you're trying to back out of what you said nowIn post 295, Black wrote: Me saying I'm fine with dying first was not a claim. Why do you keep insinuating that instead of just asking me directly if I claimed? I don't understand why you're so sure that was a claim when it seems pretty clear to me that there were emotions involved in the discussion last night, at least on my end.
saying you are fine with dying first while at e-1 is basically asking for someone to hammer you, no?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I have considered it
I keep considering it
but it's kind of hard for me to believe you are/were town genuinely frustrated at being at e-1 for dumb reasons when your tone in that post and the posts surrounding don't seem to match-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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but I've made my case, I don't think it's productive for me to continue to argue with you about it
i guess if you're town it would be most helpful to me if you tried to team solve or something
or maybe made your mind up on generic, im not really clear how you are reading him rnow-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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meowmeow!
I’m going to reread this game now that I’ve had some time away and see if I still feel as good about my tunnel-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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it’s gotten less guilty with time and experience
still definitely on the guilty side
But more like i stole cookies out of the cookie jar guilty-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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maybe I will get this on reread but I think I explained I did not think Black's tone matched her being genuinely frustrated at allIn post 351, meowmeow wrote: i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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re: guilt
idk I just generally dislike lying to people
I don't feel good about manipulating people and often if I do so successfully I feel bad about it. I generally feel relief when I am caught as scum.
how does this help you sort me, or is just general curiosity-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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thank you thank you
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I guess I don't mean to say Black wasn't frustratedIn post 356, meowmeow wrote: i genuinely think it's impossible for any human being, regardless of alignment, to not get frustrated when being pushed by generic
I am sure scum!Black would be frustrated with the amount of pressure on her too
but there's a specific flavor of town frustration that's involved in the whole "oh kill me first and then kill the scum" and I wasn't getting that from black's tone
and I feel like it didn't line up with black's confidence about her read on Generic-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I think everyone feels some amount of guilty subconsciously about rolling scum and I think there are tells that come out in posting because of it even if you don't feel that guilt consciously
it's something I picked up from a certain cute white seal-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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that surprises meIn post 360, meowmeow wrote: i don't really think i've seen anyone in the past say they felt guilty as scum-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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for whatever it is worth I did project a lot more confidence into my case on black than I maybe *should* haveIn post 351, meowmeow wrote: just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot
but the reason for that was not to get town read but to eliminate black
because I thought I had a read that was significantly >rand to flip scum, but I thought if I didn't push it with extreme confidence it was never going to happen because Black seems like a great scum player who could charisma her way out of an elimination if any leeway was given
I realize these answers don't like make me seem any more townie but that's why the push came out the way it did-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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I guess I'm confused who you think is scum thenIn post 340, T3 wrote: snip
because aureal was in your second bottom row
is aureal like your scum pick only if Black flips town?-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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i believe some of the best reads can come from RVS and the phase shortly after as a general rule lol-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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is it weird that like no one in the game jumped in to call generic vs. Black TvT-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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i think the longer the game goes the more likely scum are to winIn post 375, meowmeow wrote:
i don't think that stuff that happens that early is *less* worthy of being read into. i do, however, think that on page 5 your sample size of "stuff that has been done and can be read into" is too small to make eliminating anyone a very bad ideaIn post 369, Dannflor wrote: i believe some of the best reads can come from RVS and the phase shortly after as a general rule lol
i am surprised you disagree with this based on my knowledge of you as a player. you were town in friends and enemies, obviously, and when i was pushing shadi for something that happened early you were implying i shouldn't still believe a read from so close to the start of the game?
pedit: T3 i kind of think you said that too lol
i actually think larger sample size tends to just add more noise to reads
that wasn't because I thought the read was bad, I was surprised you either A. hadn't already killed Shadi if you still believed that read, or B. changed your read because you hadn't already killed Shadi
like I didn't expect you to still have that read and for Shadi to still be alive-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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try harder
pull a me from this game
obviously my logic was flawed because I was wrong but that is what I was thinking at the time-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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if i assume black is town
then i think scum is just [iavh/dunnstral]-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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i feel like they both played around me / generic / black in a way that feels like... they just wanted to facilitate what was already happening
I think T3 feels better because he takes a much harder stance
Dunnstral doesn't really say much besides commentating the fight and throwing shade on the lurky slots in 266
and iavh just says its svt but doesn't know in which direction in 272 which is like... idk that doesn't feel super real to me-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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i mean sure, but town LHF are still townie in some ways
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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yeah I like feel very good about that solve *if* all the major players in the game so far are town
i feel like that dynamic is very very hard for scum to interact with genuinely at all and I think CCS/T3/Aureal all displayed they were able to do that
I'm choosing to town read meowmeow here too-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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one element that is making me reconsider on black is that I don't really have a great pick for black's partner
I think [Dunnstral/Black] is the only world left that makes some sense-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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VOTE: dunnstral
I guess I'd kinda rather kill dunnstral here because I think he's scummy regardless of black's alignment-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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i don't know much of dunnstral's posting feels like he's waiting to see which way the thread is going to goIn post 324, Dunnstral wrote: UNVOTE: Black
The lack of omgus towards Dann and myself gives me pause, and I do think T3's stance here is strange at least.
I feel like town!Dunnstral would have a new target in mind here to put pressure on
I think the reason he's backing off of Black is weird because... Black was already OMGUSing Generic, it's not like she can realistically or believable OMGUS all the people pushing her. it just feels a bit made up as a reason to back off of black. I kinda just think Dunnstral would have a better reason here-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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you felt more uninformed
Idk i kinda liked your post where you were like
Wow idk what to do here i just had a slight town lean on Black
Idk you feel better for some reason I can’t quite put my finger on, but I just feel so much better about the way you’ve interacted with the game and found things to comment on, it feels way less agenday-
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Dannflor he/himSurvivorhe/him
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