Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]

[Dannflor]

it’s gotten less guilty with time and experience

still definitely on the guilty side

But more like i stole cookies out of the cookie jar guilty

[meowmeow]

i think black is town
i think aureal is town
i think generic/abnegation is town

i think dannflor is scum

i don't always get all of dannflor's pushes and i'm trying to keep that in mind, but 124 feels almost comically exaggerated for such an early read. it feels less like genuine sorting and more like trying to bury black beneath a wall of text that people's eyes will glaze over and think "ok town lol"

if i have to pick things in particular i don't like about it, the vote thing seems really nitpicky - i really doubt timing of votes is alignment indicative in any way. dannflor later says to aureal "I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" but this is literally exactly what he is doing here - black didn't think to vote in the post where she originally scumreads ccg, and because of that she's scum because town would think to vote. and the idea that black pushing back against people who scumread her is scummy - this is a thing which like happens all the time, people push back against pushes on them they don't like. black in particular does it all the time. for an example from a game i finished yesterday, she pushes back on skitter's read here - i'm too lazy to get more but like it's a pattern of behaviour and not one that's exclusive to black. it feels like dannflor here is pushing back on things which are 'scummy' rather than things which are, like, actually scum indicative. also, he says "I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?". i don't think this is a genuine thought from dann - if he disagrees it's scummy he still

knows

people scumread opportunism, and don't like it when they feel like they're being piled on.

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

i also think there are several dannflor posts that just feel... kind of overly convenient for him. like when if black is town scum definitely aren't pushing her! or because of the claims we have to eliminate the person dannflor is pushing or someone who is probably the towniest player in the entire game.

i also think stuff like, black saying she's ok to die is stuff scum do all the time but town also do all the time. dannflor literally just saw me do this as town. like, to be fair, he also pushed it there, but i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

i don't want to tunnel here but this is my starting point

VOTE: dannflor

pedit: i guess that's interesting. it was the first thing that stood out to me when reading through because like i have never felt any guilt at all when rolling scum ever. i know it's difficult to explain emotions but could you like, idk, elaborate on that guilt?

[meowmeow]

i think of the other players in the game iavh is probably the most likely to flip scum and ccs the most likely to flip town

dunnstral is just meh

i have historically struggled to read t3 but i don't really like his posting either

[Dannflor]

BZZZZT wrong try again

[Dannflor]

i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

maybe I will get this on reread but I think I explained I did not think Black's tone matched her being genuinely frustrated at all

[meowmeow]

oh well in that case

UNVOTE:

[meowmeow]

i genuinely think it's impossible for any human being, regardless of alignment, to not get frustrated when being pushed by generic

[Dannflor]

re: guilt

idk I just generally dislike lying to people

I don't feel good about manipulating people and often if I do so successfully I feel bad about it. I generally feel relief when I am caught as scum.

how does this help you sort me, or is just general curiosity

[Dannflor]

oh well in that case

UNVOTE:

thank you thank you

[Dannflor]

i genuinely think it's impossible for any human being, regardless of alignment, to not get frustrated when being pushed by generic

I guess I don't mean to say Black wasn't frustrated

I am sure scum!Black would be frustrated with the amount of pressure on her too

but there's a specific flavor of town frustration that's involved in the whole "oh kill me first and then kill the scum" and I wasn't getting that from black's tone

and I feel like it didn't line up with black's confidence about her read on Generic

[meowmeow]

re: guilt

idk I just generally dislike lying to people

I don't feel good about manipulating people and often if I do so successfully I feel bad about it. I generally feel relief when I am caught as scum.

how does this help you sort me, or is just general curiosity

a little bit of both i guess

as i said it was the first thing that stood out to me. obviously i've felt guilt over lying/manipulating people, but not really in the context of the mafia game where it's like the whole point. and i don't really think i've seen anyone in the past say they felt guilty as scum

it doesn't seem likely you're lying about it but i'm not sure exactly why you expected black would feel the same things, unless maybe you have seen someone else express that?

[Dannflor]

I think everyone feels some amount of guilty subconsciously about rolling scum and I think there are tells that come out in posting because of it even if you don't feel that guilt consciously

it's something I picked up from a certain cute white seal

[Dannflor]

i don't really think i've seen anyone in the past say they felt guilty as scum

that surprises me

[T3]

also why is dunnstral so high

I think I just liked his thought process about your scumread on Black, it seemed fairly natural and believable. He's more "null town" than "lean town" however.

[T3]

Or sorry, more "lean town" than "town"

[Dannflor]

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

for whatever it is worth I did project a lot more confidence into my case on black than I maybe *should* have

but the reason for that was not to get town read but to eliminate black

because I thought I had a read that was significantly >rand to flip scum, but I thought if I didn't push it with extreme confidence it was never going to happen because Black seems like a great scum player who could charisma her way out of an elimination if any leeway was given

I realize these answers don't like make me seem any more townie but that's why the push came out the way it did

[meowmeow]

i didn't feel any tonal dissonance from black when i was reading through and i think something like a townie saying "you can just kill me" doesn't have to make logical sense especially, although i guess i was already townreading black at that point so i can go back and read again

re: guilt, obviously there's no way for me to disprove that i feel guilt subconsciously as scum. i do think i also do probably and question mark a lot as both alignments, and also just outside of games, and it's not something i really see as a sign of guilt at all?

[Dannflor]

snip

I guess I'm confused who you think is scum then

because aureal was in your second bottom row

is aureal like your scum pick only if Black flips town?

[meowmeow]

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

for whatever it is worth I did project a lot more confidence into my case on black than I maybe *should* have

but the reason for that was not to get town read but to eliminate black

because I thought I had a read that was significantly >rand to flip scum, but I thought if I didn't push it with extreme confidence it was never going to happen because Black seems like a great scum player who could charisma her way out of an elimination if any leeway was given

I realize these answers don't like make me seem any more townie but that's why the push came out the way it did

i can understand the merits of this tactic in general but not really on page 5?

[Dannflor]

i believe some of the best reads can come from RVS and the phase shortly after as a general rule lol

[Dannflor]

is it weird that like no one in the game jumped in to call generic vs. Black TvT

[T3]

I don't think this game will ever progress without a black lim tbf

VOTE: T3

I don't think he is trying to solve the game. He voted for me on page 2 and since then almost every post has been a timely pop-in to keep the pressure on me. This post feels like an excuse to not do anything until I'm faded

Sure? I mean, I have reads on players that are not you but I haven't been particularly expressive of those reads. I understand where this read comes from though.

[meowmeow]

I don't think this game will ever progress without a black lim tbf

VOTE: T3

I don't think he is trying to solve the game. He voted for me on page 2 and since then almost every post has been a timely pop-in to keep the pressure on me. This post feels like an excuse to not do anything until I'm faded

Sure? I mean, I have reads on players that are not you but I haven't been particularly expressive of those reads. I understand where this read comes from though.

this feels like a townpost tbh

[T3]

I hate the idea that we're obligated to yeet Black now because of claim stuff

Did anyone actually ever say this???

[Dannflor]

I mean I kind of did