Open 885: Backup6 [Game Over]

[Dannflor]

VOTE: T3

[Dannflor]

VOTE: black

[Dannflor]

I think CCGeek's push on you is too inconsistent to be scum, Black

[Dannflor]

I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4

I think mafia tend to be hyper careful about their read progressions

CCGeek pushing you what looks to be semi-seriously and then calling it an RVS vote feels a little too sloppy to come from scum who was either looking to seriously push you or just joke vote you. That's more likely to come from a townie who has real thoughts and feelings that might seem to contradict each other

especially early in the game I think mafia are very self conscious about things like this

[Dannflor]

I think Black is scum.

I scum read the tone on Black's entrance like some other people did but her response to her wagon and to me in particular has solidified that read a lot.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

Some people had a bad reaction to this, for good reason. It's a read that apologizes for itself. When people roll mafia they can often enter a game with a bit of a sense of subconscious guilt. The red role PM weighs on their conscience. It might seem ridiculous to read this much into a "probably" and a "?," but combined with the fact that Black seems like a fairly confident player, I think it betrays someone who is (whether consciously or subconsciously) a little worried that throwing out a read like that is going to be viewed negatively by the other players in the game.

I don't mind T3's vote on me. I like that he admitted he was grasping at straws to start discussion

CCG's vote feels bad though. Putting me at e-2 by piggybacking off of someone grasping at straws and doubling down on their point feels off

CCGeek, how can you find T3's aggression possibly 'faux' but also agree with the point he made?

Oh right because you're scum.

You may be right here

VOTE: CCGeek

I think this progression too shows Black is feeling a little self-conscious to be the first one to put a read out there. If Black scum read's CCG's vote on her, why doesn't she vote him in 54? Instead, she waits until she's read and acknowledged Aureal's 51 that shades CCGeek to jump on the wagon. I think if Black had a pure and innocent heart and actually felt bad about CCG's vote she'd put a vote there without any hesitation.

I also think specifically calling out "putting me at e-2" is slightly scum indicative. It is consistently more likely for town players to not pay attention to where the votes are at when they throw down a vote. Scum players have to be very careful about how they are perceived and how the timing of votes might look later down the line. And while I don't think it is necessarily scum indicative for Black to *be aware* of how many votes she has accumulated, I do think it is scum indicative that she used that as a point against CCGeek, as if she found something objectively scummy with which to discredit his push with.

Wait, the black wagon had 2 votes on it at the time?

OH Clems voted for black, I somehow missed that

What difference does it make? Are you implying you wouldn't have voted for me had you known this?

Black even then later acts like it doesn't make a difference whether CCGeek meant to put her at E-2 or not, despite using the fact that CCGeek had put her to E-2 as a point of suspicion against CCGeek in post 54.

This doesn't read like someone who is genuinely trying to figure out CCGeek's alignment, it reads like someone trying to get CCGeek in a "Gotcha!"

==============================

Anyway, I imagine Black is feeling like she's under a lot of pressure for not a lot of reason pretty early in this game. But, I think if she was town, she'd more interested in trying to determine the alignments of the people on her wagon. Instead, she seems more interested in discrediting all the votes on her. I think this is evident in her pushes on both CCGeek and myself.

Even her read on T3, she's like "oh it's towny because it's grasping for straws and just trying to start discussion," which discredits the actual read. The moment someone seriously scum reads her, she pushes back and discredits.

For one thing, I think it's weird she goes after me for a "perspective slip" despite CCGeek arguably doing the same thing by saying that Black is "tunneling" in 95, normally something you'd say to a person you think is town. It's for this reason that I don't really believe that she thinks I'm scum, or that she's genuinely trying to parse CCGeek's alignment.

I don't think you are town, but I am not prideful enough to think my read on you is 100% on page 4

I'm sorry but I have a hard time believing 98 comes from someone that thinks I'm probably scum. You conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others and then spoke to me as if you were trying to convince me that CCG is town. If I'm your #1 suspect then it doesn't make sense for you to address me this way. I don't like this at all

You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both

VOTE: Dannflor

As far as this post goes, it's just loaded with scum rhetoric.

I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?

I think "You're either scum with CCG or CCG is town and you're playing us both" doesn't make sense as a real town thought. I think at this point town!Black would have an idea in her head of which is more likely. She'd be constructing a world that makes my behavior and CCGeek's behavior make sense. Calling out two very different worlds (me and CCG as scum buddies and CCG as town) without really giving either one more credence than the other makes it seem like she isn't really considering each of these worlds and what they might mean. Instead, this feels like a rhetorical device to both discredit all the people on her wagon and make it seem more likely that I'm scum by offering up two different ways that I could be scum in this scenario.

I don't think Black actually believes that because I challenged her read on CCG, that means that I made a perspective slip that makes me scum. I think she feels like she has to push me in this way and if she were town I think there would be more of an attempt to see where I'm coming from.

There's not even an attempt really to build a coherent case against me. Instead, 108 is filled with a lot of statements that are supposed to make it seem more believable that I'm scum, with my "convenient hop on to a wagon built by others" thrown in there as if that makes sense as a reason for me to be scum "I don't like this at all" thrown in there to make the read seem more real, and "you're either scum with CCG or scum playing us both" thrown in there to make me seem more likely to be scum. I don't think any of these statements reveal that Black has genuinely thought about my alignment and what is most likely to be happening in this game.

[Dannflor]

anyway tl;dr I'd like to kill Black today

I think CCG is town and I think T3 is town

[Dannflor]

ah shit I should've page topped my wall

[Dannflor]

I vaguely think Generic is town too

[Dannflor]

[T3, CCGeek]
[Generic]
[CCS, Aureal, Dunnstral] - null
[iamveryhappy]
[Black]

I think this is about where I'm at

iamveryhappy I just didn't really like how they randomly popped in to be like "I don't like E-2s"

[Dannflor]

you can not like forcing a hammer but idk what is the point of saying you don't like e-2s in a game where it takes 5 votes to elim

we can't really wagon anyone if we're not allowed to e-2 people

[Dannflor]

I’m still waiting for some sort of vote count.

unofficial VC

Black (3): iamveryhappy, T3, Dannflor
CCGeek (2): Aureal, camelCasedSnivy
Generic (1): iamveryhappy
Dannflor (1): Black

Not Voting (3): Dunnstral, Generic, CCGeek

[Dannflor]

woops fixed*

Black (2): T3, Dannflor
CCGeek (2): Aureal, camelCasedSnivy
Generic (1): iamveryhappy
Dannflor (1): Black

Not Voting (3): Dunnstral, Generic, CCGeek

[Dannflor]

I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP

what is the purpose of making this post?

[Dannflor]

do/did you suspect Generic because of that?

if you think scum would do that to pocket you I'm not sure why you wouldn't wait to see who would go along with it and who wouldn't

[Dannflor]

tbh if you are actually town black i would expect 0 scum to be pushing you right now and scum to be sitting on the sidelines

[Dannflor]

what makes you so sure there must be at least one pushing you right now?

why couldn't scum be like... camelCase / Dunnstral and they just aren't doing anything yet

[Dannflor]

idk i read posts like 162 through the lens of someone trying mimic town thoughts but if I'm wrong I'd still probably be reading things that way

I'll take a break from a thread and try to reset

there is a world where scum just haven't done anything of note yet

[Dannflor]

Estimated completed games: 48
Have you had victories in a mafia team?: Yes
Favourite alignment: Town - but I try very hard to win regardless of my alignment.

[Dannflor]

most people do

[Dannflor]

aureal what do you think i should look for specifically in black's town game that is different from her scum game

[Dannflor]

neither of you should have claimed

but i think the way generic did it was self-righteous

whilst black's 206 felt performative

[Dannflor]

tbh it is like mechanically optimal to elim between generic and black now

I would strongly prefer a black elimination

generic!scum doesn't need to make a spectacle out of pushing black!town when me and Dunn were already doing that for him

[Dannflor]

We should still kill Black today.

For one thing, we have two vanilla townie claims. I'd really prefer not to run up another player and out a PR if we think there is scum in either of these two claims. And I do. Looking at the claims, I think the the way Generic did it, as kind of a self-righteous taunt towards Black, probably comes from town. It throws away a powerful play by mafia for no reason to out PRs and Generic wasn't in a position where he was facing any pressure. It's a bad play, to be sure, but I think he's town for it.

On the other hand, Black didn't even explicitly claim.

so you were cool with being patient and letting the day play out until i pushed you, now suddenly you call for thunderdome and are rallying everyone to vote?

yeah, Generic is probably just scum here.

i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

In this post, Black betrays that she is not a TPR by saying she's fine with dying. The problem is, I think if Black was actually town she'd think about the ramifications of claiming here. Why did she say the bolded line? I think the purpose is to seem like she doesn't care about dying and so that people will read that as town.

Why does being at e-1 mean Black should be eliminated first? Why is she actually okay with going first as town? As I've been told, Black is *not* a confident player in her scum and town reads as town. So, why now is she so confident that she is willing to trade her own life on this read?

====================================================================

To be clear,

@Aureal

, I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" or however you are representing my read. In fact, it's kind of the opposite.

A lot of Black's posting this game is focused around *looking town,* not being town. I would expect posting more in line with this game: viewtopic.php?t=90662&user_select%5B%5D=36961 if Black were town. Where Black is pretty unfiltered, her posts are on the shorter side, she asks probing questions, posts half baked thoughts... etc. That seems to be Black's town game from what I've researched about her meta.

That is not the same as her posting this game. Her posting this game feels overwrought and LAMIST.

Here are some quotes from a previous scum!Black game: viewtopic.php?p=13681045&f=11&t=90607&u ... #p13681045

Spoiler:

I'm not seeing the harm at putting someone at e-2. Let's assume all town votes are on the wagon. Do we really think the wolves will come through and quick hammer that? And if we assume there is one (or even two) wolves on the wagon already then townies coming through to hammer is also very unlikely

Sometimes putting someone at e-2 is good for reactions and to see how other players interact with that game state. Especially if you think that person's entrance was more likely to come from a wolf than a townie

A pretty LAMIST post in that it focuses on showcasing how Black cares so much about reactions and scumhunting, while not actually adding any content related to the game at hand.

I agree Delta. But what I find weird is that you don't consider my actions as trying to get out of RVS. I don't really like the phase so I tried to advance the game with 19, 23, and 31

As far as relying on meta, I'm not. I was just explaining why I didn't agree that Human was acting scummy

Another post where Black tries to create the narrative that she is trying to advance the game. scum!Black seems to care a lot about *looking* town.

I'm comfortable voting kawaii atm but I don't want to put them at e-1 because I don't think we should end the day any time soon. I still want to hear more from Arko

Another post where Black very explicitly spells out that she wants to do the *pro-town* thing. I don't think town!Black would actually care to be this explicit. She could just say that she's scum reading kawaii but doesn't want to e-1 yet. The "I don't think we should end the day any time soon" part is only there for Black to look more town.

I guess the best way to summarize the way I am reading Black's meta.

scum!Black cares about getting town read, and she posts stuff that she thinks will get her town read.

town!Black seems to care quite a bit less about getting town read and more about solving the game (this is probably why she gets scum read more as town than as scum )

In post 137, Brian Skies wrote:
I feel comfortable townreading this slot. Their posts feel genuine to me and I can vibe with their analysis.

I throw out these exact same generic TRs when I'm wolf. Like all the time

Also, here's an interesting post by Black from a town!Black game, especially considering the first post of the game that started garnering Black scum reads.

Generic trying to read and solve already is probably a good sign?

In addition, here is a bunch of Black posts made this game that I think fit the model of Black explicitly trying to get town read through her posting:

I don't think anyone should be locktowning me tbh. I'm a dangerous scum player. Granted I haven't rolled scum since my first 3 newbie games on the site but that probably just means I'm overdue and you should all fade me ASAP

i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

you won't be able to weasel your way out of getting faded D2 and town will already be down 3 members assuming the NK goes through

unfortunately it doesn't look like i'll be getting the pleasure

all of these posts are just very, "looks like im gonna die oh well! look at me im so town!" it feels very disingenuous and from looking over Black's town games, it really doesn't look like the way town!Black posts.

I also just think her posts are kind of overwrought. I first noticed this with 108, where there's a lot of extra words used to reinforce Black's confidence in her scum read on me like "I don't like this at all" and the "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others" lines.

I think some of her posts arguing with Generic have also been scummy, like 247, where she makes a pedantic argument that because she used the words "probably" and "likely" she's actually not very sure about her scum read on Generic. This is despite the fact Black has implicitly said she's fine with trading her life for Generic's, she's apparently that confident in her scum read on Generic.

I don't think 255 or 258 are particularly towny either. Black is using the logic that Generic shouldn't want to be elimmed first, despite once again having just said that she is *fine* with being elimmed first. I think it's overly conciliatory considering the tone of the argument thus far and Black is looking to be seen as the reasonable one, not actually determine Generic's alignment.

[Dannflor]

generic put your vote back on black please

[Dannflor]

im fine ending the day here tbh

[Dannflor]

I don't think a black town flip would make you scum

I'd definitely reassess but I think you're town independently

I don't really know what you are saying here

Black has all but actually claimed

if I was role fishing I'd try to run up someone outside of you two

[Dannflor]

because it doesn't read like an emotional response

it reads a intentionally casual

[Dannflor]

yeah, Generic is probably just scum here. i'm fine going first though. i'm at e-1 anyway

this does not read as an emotional "heat of the moment" response

"i'm at e-1 anyway"

that's someone trying to be extra casual about the possibility of dying

[Dannflor]

Me saying I'm fine with dying first was not a claim. Why do you keep insinuating that instead of just asking me directly if I claimed? I don't understand why you're so sure that was a claim when it seems pretty clear to me that there were emotions involved in the discussion last night, at least on my end.

like i feel like you're trying to back out of what you said now

saying you are fine with dying first while at e-1 is basically asking for someone to hammer you, no?

[Dannflor]

I have considered it

I keep considering it

but it's kind of hard for me to believe you are/were town genuinely frustrated at being at e-1 for dumb reasons when your tone in that post and the posts surrounding don't seem to match

[Dannflor]

but I've made my case, I don't think it's productive for me to continue to argue with you about it

i guess if you're town it would be most helpful to me if you tried to team solve or something

or maybe made your mind up on generic, im not really clear how you are reading him rnow

[Dannflor]

what are your reads, T3

[Dannflor]

you think aureal and black make sense as scum partners?

[Dannflor]

also why is dunnstral so high

[Dannflor]

do you think you're out of your scum range black

[Dannflor]

meowmeow!

I’m going to reread this game now that I’ve had some time away and see if I still feel as good about my tunnel

[Dannflor]

it’s gotten less guilty with time and experience

still definitely on the guilty side

But more like i stole cookies out of the cookie jar guilty

[Dannflor]

BZZZZT wrong try again

[Dannflor]

i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

maybe I will get this on reread but I think I explained I did not think Black's tone matched her being genuinely frustrated at all

[Dannflor]

re: guilt

idk I just generally dislike lying to people

I don't feel good about manipulating people and often if I do so successfully I feel bad about it. I generally feel relief when I am caught as scum.

how does this help you sort me, or is just general curiosity

[Dannflor]

oh well in that case

UNVOTE:

thank you thank you

[Dannflor]

i genuinely think it's impossible for any human being, regardless of alignment, to not get frustrated when being pushed by generic

I guess I don't mean to say Black wasn't frustrated

I am sure scum!Black would be frustrated with the amount of pressure on her too

but there's a specific flavor of town frustration that's involved in the whole "oh kill me first and then kill the scum" and I wasn't getting that from black's tone

and I feel like it didn't line up with black's confidence about her read on Generic

[Dannflor]

I think everyone feels some amount of guilty subconsciously about rolling scum and I think there are tells that come out in posting because of it even if you don't feel that guilt consciously

it's something I picked up from a certain cute white seal

[Dannflor]

i don't really think i've seen anyone in the past say they felt guilty as scum

that surprises me

[Dannflor]

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

for whatever it is worth I did project a lot more confidence into my case on black than I maybe *should* have

but the reason for that was not to get town read but to eliminate black

because I thought I had a read that was significantly >rand to flip scum, but I thought if I didn't push it with extreme confidence it was never going to happen because Black seems like a great scum player who could charisma her way out of an elimination if any leeway was given

I realize these answers don't like make me seem any more townie but that's why the push came out the way it did

[Dannflor]

snip

I guess I'm confused who you think is scum then

because aureal was in your second bottom row

is aureal like your scum pick only if Black flips town?

[Dannflor]

i believe some of the best reads can come from RVS and the phase shortly after as a general rule lol

[Dannflor]

is it weird that like no one in the game jumped in to call generic vs. Black TvT

[Dannflor]

I mean I kind of did

[Dannflor]

i believe some of the best reads can come from RVS and the phase shortly after as a general rule lol

i don't think that stuff that happens that early is *less* worthy of being read into. i do, however, think that on page 5 your sample size of "stuff that has been done and can be read into" is too small to make eliminating anyone a very bad idea

i am surprised you disagree with this based on my knowledge of you as a player. you were town in friends and enemies, obviously, and when i was pushing shadi for something that happened early you were implying i shouldn't still believe a read from so close to the start of the game?

pedit: T3 i kind of think you said that too lol

i think the longer the game goes the more likely scum are to win

i actually think larger sample size tends to just add more noise to reads

that wasn't because I thought the read was bad, I was surprised you either A. hadn't already killed Shadi if you still believed that read, or B. changed your read because you hadn't already killed Shadi

like I didn't expect you to still have that read and for Shadi to still be alive

[Dannflor]

try harder

pull a me from this game

obviously my logic was flawed because I was wrong but that is what I was thinking at the time

[Dannflor]

VOTE: iamveryhappy

[Dannflor]

if i assume black is town

then i think scum is just [iavh/dunnstral]

[Dannflor]

i feel like they both played around me / generic / black in a way that feels like... they just wanted to facilitate what was already happening

I think T3 feels better because he takes a much harder stance

Dunnstral doesn't really say much besides commentating the fight and throwing shade on the lurky slots in 266

and iavh just says its svt but doesn't know in which direction in 272 which is like... idk that doesn't feel super real to me

[Dannflor]

if i assume black is town

then i think scum is just [iavh/dunnstral]

Maybe? Iavh is almost always LHF though

i mean sure, but town LHF are still townie in some ways

[Dannflor]

yeah I like feel very good about that solve *if* all the major players in the game so far are town

i feel like that dynamic is very very hard for scum to interact with genuinely at all and I think CCS/T3/Aureal all displayed they were able to do that

I'm choosing to town read meowmeow here too

[Dannflor]

one element that is making me reconsider on black is that I don't really have a great pick for black's partner

I think [Dunnstral/Black] is the only world left that makes some sense

[Dannflor]

VOTE: dunnstral

I guess I'd kinda rather kill dunnstral here because I think he's scummy regardless of black's alignment

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE: Black

The lack of omgus towards Dann and myself gives me pause, and I do think T3's stance here is strange at least.

i don't know much of dunnstral's posting feels like he's waiting to see which way the thread is going to go

I feel like town!Dunnstral would have a new target in mind here to put pressure on

I think the reason he's backing off of Black is weird because... Black was already OMGUSing Generic, it's not like she can realistically or believable OMGUS all the people pushing her. it just feels a bit made up as a reason to back off of black. I kinda just think Dunnstral would have a better reason here

[Dannflor]

I think that vote here is kinda towny lol

[Dannflor]

you felt more uninformed

Idk i kinda liked your post where you were like

Wow idk what to do here i just had a slight town lean on Black

Idk you feel better for some reason I can’t quite put my finger on, but I just feel so much better about the way you’ve interacted with the game and found things to comment on, it feels way less agenday

[Dannflor]

I know, but would you realistically be expecting scum!Black to OMGUS Generic + one of us?

[Dannflor]

I just don’t follow why that gives you pause

[Dannflor]

No one is voting you

[Dannflor]

Where is your head at with regards to this game dunnstral

[Dannflor]

im town and y’all are weird about the guilt thing

[Dannflor]

I wish I could say I still felt super confident in scum!black and that you should sheep that read but i do not

[Dannflor]

But I also don’t really have any other picks for scum that aren’t [iavh, dunnstral]

so hopefully it’s just an easy game

[Dannflor]

iavh do you have any town reads or scum reads

[Dannflor]

nothing about dunnstral and iavh’s interactions dissuades me from the idea that they could be partnered here

[Dannflor]

Iavh seems to be pretty “woe is me” this game?

[Dannflor]

Ok i reread the game

I think T3 is probably mafia

[Dannflor]

I am going to assume Black is town

I think the game state through my Black tunnel makes more sense that way and I just don’t have as much belief in my read reading back through as I did before

Plus both Aureal and meowmeow have told me Black is very town and they can’t both be scum with Black

[Dannflor]

As far as T3 goes, there are a number of specific posts that I think are scum indicative which I’ll go into

But in particular I think his trajectory from Black to me has been pretty uncharitable in a way that gives me the vibe that he’s looking for reasons to scum read me

[Dannflor]

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

first of all, i think scum is actually a lot more likely to take this post as a sincere town slip.

this is assuming generic and t3 aren’t partnered

1. When a mafia player sees a townie make a post like this, they automatically assume it is real because it’s coming from someone they know is town.

2. because a mafia player assumes it is real, they give too much credence to it. instinctually a mafia player might assume that it will look suspicious to attack such a post with cynicism or suspicion

but in actuality I think the towny response to Generic’s post might actually be suspicion, or at least some questioning or caution

I find the wordiness of T3’s explanation here unnatural too. It feels a little too performative, especially the last line of “that usually happens in newbie games.” It feels like the classic tell of overexplaining so that you aren’t caught fibbing

[Dannflor]

Spoiler:

i think black is town
i think aureal is town
i think generic/abnegation is town

i think dannflor is scum

i don't always get all of dannflor's pushes and i'm trying to keep that in mind, but 124 feels almost comically exaggerated for such an early read. it feels less like genuine sorting and more like trying to bury black beneath a wall of text that people's eyes will glaze over and think "ok town lol"

if i have to pick things in particular i don't like about it, the vote thing seems really nitpicky - i really doubt timing of votes is alignment indicative in any way. dannflor later says to aureal "I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" but this is literally exactly what he is doing here - black didn't think to vote in the post where she originally scumreads ccg, and because of that she's scum because town would think to vote. and the idea that black pushing back against people who scumread her is scummy - this is a thing which like happens all the time, people push back against pushes on them they don't like. black in particular does it all the time. for an example from a game i finished yesterday, she pushes back on skitter's read here - i'm too lazy to get more but like it's a pattern of behaviour and not one that's exclusive to black. it feels like dannflor here is pushing back on things which are 'scummy' rather than things which are, like, actually scum indicative. also, he says "I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?". i don't think this is a genuine thought from dann - if he disagrees it's scummy he still

knows

people scumread opportunism, and don't like it when they feel like they're being piled on.

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

i also think there are several dannflor posts that just feel... kind of overly convenient for him. like when if black is town scum definitely aren't pushing her! or because of the claims we have to eliminate the person dannflor is pushing or someone who is probably the towniest player in the entire game.

i also think stuff like, black saying she's ok to die is stuff scum do all the time but town also do all the time. dannflor literally just saw me do this as town. like, to be fair, he also pushed it there, but i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

i don't want to tunnel here but this is my starting point

VOTE: dannflor

pedit: i guess that's interesting. it was the first thing that stood out to me when reading through because like i have never felt any guilt at all when rolling scum ever. i know it's difficult to explain emotions but could you like, idk, elaborate on that guilt?

I really like this post and I think you’re probably correct. You’re exactly right that I just took a little glance at Dannflor’s wall, I thought “yeah, this makes sense” and while I did think that some of his points

were

a bit of a stretch I ultimately agreed with his read so I never bothered to comment on it or actually click all of his posts and follow them up to try to understand the context behind them.

I also didn’t like his IAVH scumread, again, it felt all too convenient. The Black wagon had stalled and instead of doing genuine sorting and scumhunting it seemed to me like Dannflor instead was just going through the motions to make it appear like he’s sorting. His questioning of me wasn’t scummy in of itself but scum can absolutely fake that, and it didn’t seem to me like he was actually using his questioning of me to sort me.

If I am scum, in this gamestate I absolutely want to make uncontroversial lurker scumreads and prevent meaningful discussion from happening, and that’s exactly what it seemed like Dannflor was doing.

NOTE: I had not read meowmeow’s above post before I voted Dannflor. I voted him over the IAVH stuff and then I went back and read pages 14/15 because I had missed them.

I feel the note at the end of this post very rarely comes from town. Who is this for? Idk needing to preclarify a train of thought comes from scum a lot more of the time in my experience because town already know they have a genuine complex train of thought. Scum are trying to convince everyone that their unique complex train of thought is real.

The rest of this read is just… kind of convenient and I don’t really think it passes as genuine

He’s scum reading me for scum reading iavh without actually commenting on iavh’s alignment.

There’s this idea that I just started pushing the lurkers because Black was losing steam but that’s not really an accurate representation of the game at all? I think it’s pretty clear I reevaluated based on the premise that Black was town based on multiple people coming to her defense and I specifically looked for what I think scum would be doing if that clusterfuck was all town

Idk

“make uncontroversial lurker reads and prevent meaningful discussion from happening”

This reads like a politician’s representation of a Dannflor scum read, not someone who actually believes I have a scum agenda.

[Dannflor]

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

Same tbh. I scumread Dannflor more than Dunn or IAVH, but I also think that it's fairly unlikely that Dunn or IAVH will ever town it up and they'll likely have to be limmed at some point. I still want Dannflor gone today though.

IN THE SAME BREATH AS T3 IS SAYING IAVH NEEDS TO BE LIMMED EVENTUALLY T3 IS SCUM READING ME FOR WANTING TO LIM IAVH

i do not believe this man thinks im scum

[Dannflor]

Spoiler: random IAVH meta stuff

Mini Normal 2023 (town) IAVH shitposted a lot early in the game, but made genuine attempts to scumhunt primarily by coming up with strange tinfoil-y theories but also some legitimate scumreads in which you could tell that he was asking himself “why did X person do that?” he read everything hyper-seriously and struggled to understand when other people were joking.

Newbie 2128 (town) is also more of the same. Again, he’s clearly asking himself a lot of questions the entire time. In this game he reacted fairly well to pressure and he expressed strong contempt of the scumreads on him.

MBOS 15 (town) was the exact same as the game previous games. Although in this game IAVH was never actually scumread that much or had a chance to express many reads because he was killed by the mod very quickly.

Soon after going through these three games I realized that IAVH has never actually played a scum game on this site

i wouldn’t post this shit as town

literal definition of scum busy work post

[Dannflor]

[Generic, Dunnstral]
[Dannflor]
[CCGeek, camelCasedSnivy]
[Aureal]
[Black]

I'd guess that iavh is a fairly meta readable player so that's up next on my list

also why is dunnstral so high

I think I just liked his thought process about your scumread on Black, it seemed fairly natural and believable. He's more "null town" than "lean town" however.

im not on board for iavh bandwagon

in fact, iavh you should sheep me on dunnstral

Why

I think Dunnstral probably makes the most sense as a T3 partner

I don’t really think it makes sense for T3 to slot Dunnstral next to Generic who T3 hard hard town read for claiming and thunderdoming and then waffle Dunnstral down to a town lean when questioned on it

[Dannflor]

i could probably be sold on dunn or iavh, but currently my feeling towards those slots is more like "well, i don't

not

want to vote there."
also quite liking the wagon composition on dann.

Same tbh. I scumread Dannflor more than Dunn or IAVH, but I also think that it's fairly unlikely that Dunn or IAVH will ever town it up and they'll likely have to be limmed at some point. I still want Dannflor gone today though.

You said the same thing about Black and we are no longer voting for her. It is so scummy that you keep pushing things like this.

True, I mean the whole "the day won't progress unless Black is eliminated" was mainly because of Generic though, and then Generic was banned

And this interaction seems like scum theatre?

I don’t get why Dunnstral is calling T3 “so scummy” and yet going after IAVH and CCS?

I don’t get why T3’s response to someone calling him so scummy is to basically ignore it?

It reads like awkward distancing

Pedit: lol

[Dannflor]

Ok maybe I’m wrong on dunnstral idk but i wanna kill t3 anyway

VOTE: t3

[Dannflor]

I guess more i was gonna say about dunnstral that maybe you can answer since you are here

It kinda feels like you are ignoring the wagon on me, there’s not really even a comment about it and I’m wondering why there’s no engagement in that direction

what is your read on me

[Dannflor]

well, tbh I thought there was a possibility you and Black were S/S. I also don't know you or your relationship with Black and have no basis to decide whether your read on her is actually quality or if you're just town reading her because you like her

it also helps that I know and respect meowmeow's reads and I think that slot is probably town

[Dannflor]

I don't really get why you're being so charitable to me now when you say you want me limmed today

[Dannflor]

I think it's weird that your response to 501 is to be like "ya that makes sense"

and not like, "well, this is wrong, im town, here is just what i was thinking!"

like idk i expect if you think I'm scum for your initial reaction to be that I'm bullshitting a scum case on you but instead your initial reaction is that my scum case on town!you makes sense?

[Dannflor]

I thought you and Black probably not scum partners at that time

but in my head the possibilities throughout my push on Black were that you were S/S or T/S and wrong on your read

[Dannflor]

t3 frozen scum ez gg

[Dannflor]

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

first of all, i think scum is actually a lot more likely to take this post as a sincere town slip.

this is assuming generic and t3 aren’t partnered

1. When a mafia player sees a townie make a post like this, they automatically assume it is real because it’s coming from someone they know is town.

2. because a mafia player assumes it is real, they give too much credence to it. instinctually a mafia player might assume that it will look suspicious to attack such a post with cynicism or suspicion

but in actuality I think the towny response to Generic’s post might actually be suspicion, or at least some questioning or caution

I find the wordiness of T3’s explanation here unnatural too. It feels a little too performative, especially the last line of “that usually happens in newbie games.” It feels like the classic tell of overexplaining so that you aren’t caught fibbing

how did you feel about that post when you first read it?

it pinged me

VOTE: T3

[Dannflor]

i was tunneled on black and thought t3 was pretty much never scum with black

[Dannflor]

earlier you said your view was along the lines of; "black is scummy. i don't know that she's scum, she might be town, but i think she is above random likelihood to be scum right now. i also know that if black is scum, she is extremely slippery. therefore, i need to exaggerate my push so people will actually listen to me." correct me if anything here is wrong.

like, i don't see how your pov here really fits with that? how can you not even have thought of black town as a possibility in that time period? were you not, like, thinking of "what happens if the person i'm tunneling flips town" which you should have thought of as a fairly likely occurrence?

i was assuming i was right and fitting everything into a world where i was right

[Dannflor]

look i never said i was exactly playing this game well

[Dannflor]

if t3 flips red i think that spews Generic town 32

probably spews black town


maybe ccgeek? 121


i don't think the amount of shading t3 does towards aureal in 340 really comes from partners

that leaves [iavh, ccs, dunnstral] as possible partners

I think I would still pick dunnstral out of those 3 probably but idk

i think if t3 is scum here they probably want to be in a bussing position

[Dannflor]

my suspicion of black started more with how she reacted to CCGeek's vote on her

[Dannflor]

there's not really a universe where i am that boneheaded as scum

it's town boneheadedness

[Dannflor]

Before I want to yeet anyone I would like to say this is not biased against anyone

Just remember to claim intent to hammer before actually hammering to allow for claims.

weird fucking post to make btw

[Dannflor]

pretty sure that comes from mafia who wants to claim a pr before he dies not an actual pr

[Dannflor]

Yeah I don't see any reason to think 'Mafia' over 'actual pr' or 'person concerned that the other wagon could still be a pr'

it's too telegraphed

[Dannflor]

I went through the game again and didn't see anything that really pinged me. He seems to occupy a pretty solidly reasonable position. Could he be scum, sure. I don't have any reason to particularly suspect him at this point so I'm fine worrying about that later.

tbh these are the types of reads that flip scum most often

[Dannflor]

i don't really see what the timeline of townflor is here? like, to me, this means you're simultaneously exaggerating a read that isn't that strong because you think if you don't and black is scum she will win easily, but also you just think black is almost definitely scum this game and seeing everything through that lens. and i don't understand how they coexist or how one turns into the other

I don't really think I can explain this satisfactorily but I will try

for starters my read was pretty strong! like I don't decide I want to kill someone on page 5 if my read is not strong. I had flickers of doubt here and there but for the most part I thought I had a really good read and built my worldview of the game around it.

now, normally even if I get a good read on page 5 I'm a little more diplomatic and try to give my scum read some space to prove they are town

I did not feel it was wise to give Black that same space I usually give people, so when I say I exaggerated my read, I mean that I pushed a lot harder than I normally would because I wanted to make sure that Black would die

like, I thought my read was significantly strong

it was because I thought my read was significantly strong that I went so hard on Black and did my best to not give any slivers of doubt or any room to move

[Dannflor]

I've been super tryharding in terms of trying to improve my read accuracy lately, I think it's one of the weakest parts of my play generally so I'm trying to play a ton of games, look objectively at which reads are working and which aren't, and improve from there. I aspire to get to the same read accuracy of peak nsg or radiantcowbells

part of that journey for me is believing that my reads can get there, and if they aren't there, beat myself up after the game until they get there

my plan for "what if Black flipped town?", I didn't have an in game plan

I was just playing as if she was going to flip scum

my plan for if Black flipped town was to beat myself up after the game over it and look at what went wrong in my read

[Dannflor]

VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3VOTE: T3

[Dannflor]

just felt like it

I'm feeling more and more confident about T3 flipping scum the longer I look at this game

[Dannflor]

I went through the game again and didn't see anything that really pinged me. He seems to occupy a pretty solidly reasonable position. Could he be scum, sure. I don't have any reason to particularly suspect him at this point so I'm fine worrying about that later.

tbh these are the types of reads that flip scum most often

What about, like, actual scumreads? This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town.

most people's actual scum reads flip town

like empirically if you look at the average person's reads in any given game their null reads are the most likely group of reads to contain scum

[Dannflor]

idk like 90%

but historically i have weighted that 10% pretty heavily

I tried not to do that this game

[Dannflor]

This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town

at risk of being tunneled town this sentence feels performative

i think you've been far too charitable to me here

and idk if you actually are thinking this then the game state is fucked up - like who would be mafia?

[Dannflor]

like tbh i think the fact that both of our wagons have stalled at e-1 points towards one of us being scum

[Dannflor]

i think the idea of that joke is really funny

[Dannflor]

I think if I'm right about the gamestate T3's partner is someone calling me town and bussing

I don't think CCS or iavh positions really make sense as a T3 partner

if T3 flips scum I think it's like only [Black, Dunnstral] that could possibly be partners

[Dannflor]

i don't really get how your push on black was ever exaggerated if you thought there was a 90% chance she would flip scum tbh?

tbh this is just a time where I'm not ever going to make sense to you i don't think

kinda like the time in friends and enemies that in my head "slightly exaggerating" was saying you are acting like you are definitely going to be eliminated instead of probably going to be eliminated

[Dannflor]

do it

[Dannflor]

do not declare intent to do not allow claim do not pass go do not collect 200 dollars

[Dannflor]

zing

[Dannflor]

if t3 flips red i think that spews Generic town 32

probably spews black town

maybe ccgeek? 121

i don't think the amount of shading t3 does towards aureal in 340 really comes from partners

that leaves [iavh, ccs, dunnstral] as possible partners

I think I would still pick dunnstral out of those 3 probably but idk

i think if t3 is scum here they probably want to be in a bussing position

I think if I'm right about the gamestate T3's partner is someone calling me town and bussing

I don't think CCS or iavh positions really make sense as a T3 partner

if T3 flips scum I think it's like only [Black, Dunnstral] that could possibly be partners

This feels a little inconsistent, at least in regards to my slot. Am I spewed town or a likely T3 partner? Can you explain your thought progression here?

it’s inconsistent cause i changed my mind

I looked at some T3 scum games and saw he likes to bus and got worried

I probably would not let you end game if T3 flips red

[Dannflor]

And ngl I’m paranoid about you hard townreading me here

It feels unrealistic given I’ve been hard lushing you for so much of the game

[Dannflor]

It's not that you should necessarily be scum reading me but I don't really understand why there isn't more doubt

I mean especially given you don't really know me as a player idk why you prefer T3 or iavh so much

speaking of I'm feeling more and more like iavh might be town. I don't really know that scum!iavh would be delaying hammer or intent for this long?

[Dannflor]

Dunnstral, why are you interacting with CCS the most here? is he your preferred elimination?

[Dannflor]

where the heck is abnegation

[Dannflor]

actually why am I clearing abnegation

I kinda just want to Elli-tell Abnegation

[Dannflor]

oh right abnegation is generic

[Dannflor]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/se ... =50&page=2

here is a game where Generic as scum did the same fucking thunderdome thing he did here with black

he's not the type of player to be cleared for such shenanigans

[Dannflor]

is t3 / abnegation(Generic) S-S?

[Dannflor]

455 is pretty towny. I don't have much of a read on Abnegation since replacing in but I don't think I want to lim him today.

weird thing to say when you had Generic as lock town previously

[Dannflor]

This logic is so weird that I almost wonder if Dannflor is tunnled town

at risk of being tunneled town this sentence feels performative

i think you've been far too charitable to me here

and idk if you actually are thinking this then the game state is fucked up - like who would be mafia?

I still think you're scum, but if we're both town and the gamestate is really this fucked up then I'd say that scum is Aureal/iavh or probably, maybe replace one of the two with Abnegation.

[Dannflor]

Wait a second…

There’s a setup?

cool, here we have our first townslip! (probably!)

I'd imagine that scum would have a quick discussion about the setup and the mech in the scum PT after they receive their role PM's. That usually happens in newbie games at least.

my natural reaction is to get defensive when someone is wrong about me. that's just how my brain works. i realize that may seem scummy but it's something i do naturally regardless of alignment

what are your thoughts on Generic? and can you elaborate on 158?

I doubt generic is scum. His posting feels very very natural.

As for 158 your read there just didn’t seem real. I think town!you would have more self-doubt in that scenario.

Reading page 9, there is no way that scum!Generic goes and thunderdomes Black here. No way in hell.

yeah this progression from generic lock town to possible scum makes like no sense

[Dannflor]

abnegation like not really being here feels like she's just hoping to lurk out the end of day

don't love the hop on to my wagon either

[Dannflor]

okay new solve T3 / Abnegation

LOCKING IT IN

[Dannflor]

I think that just fits so well it has to be true

[Dannflor]

tbh it's probably not actually scummy if I think about it harder

not just because I have a new exciting solve

but like I don't think scum in this game state is incentivized to be doing anything

this questioning of you is pretty superfluous and I think that's a tad more likely to come from town who actually thinks they have something

like if he's going to miseliminate/bus T3 then why not just go all in on that

[Dannflor]

also tbh i scum read abnegation taking meowmeow's unvote of my seriously

[Dannflor]

I see you T3

[Dannflor]

this is a gamestate with two wagons that have been tied at e-1 for a long time

aureal / meowmeow / dunnstral / Black are all still trying to solve the game, even CCS to a degree

T3 / Abnegation are both slots that seem kind of frozen in this game state

idk T3 has weakly started poking outside of me once I called him on it, but I don't really believe he's really looking for scum outside of me or is worried about solving the game like a townie would be. Abnegation just stuck a vote on me claiming to sheep meowmeow and hasn't felt the need to poke at anyone or anything else this phase, despite shading both iavh and dunnstral

I just think scum are having a very hard time interacting with this game state in a genuine and towny way

[Dannflor]

and idk im just not really feeling iavh anymore on tone

+ there it's pretty counterintuitive to slow roll this as scum

[Dannflor]

Also stop side stepping the challenge. Thunderdome!
People need to choose either me or you for the day 1 vote. Given my reputation on the site you will get your wish and see my flip. Then you can try and back track and blame me which you are already trying to do before the thunderdome has even started.

You and me. 1 vs 1. I want you in the thunderdome Aph.

Why are you so scared to 1 v 1 me? You think I’m scum. What’s the issue? Because you have offered nothing to me to believe you aren’t scum. So let’s do this

quotes from scum!Generic in another game

Oh, and you are in a thunderdome right now… oh wait a second…

##Vote Princess Neon


You are in a thunderdome right now.

I’m thunderdoming so vote for me and Dave us all the long boring arguement over whether Generic is a good or bad Wolf rather than, oh I don’t know, town?

Caught Wolf. Cries about hating being mafia because they hate being dishonest, all while playing awkwardly and uncomfortably. They are literally telegraphing they are mafia.

Thunderdome is back on baby!

I’ve read enough. One proves the other. I will thunderdome either.

But twice is the one flailing.

posts from yet another scum!generic game

[Dannflor]

quotes from generic this game

Thunderdome it is. *cracks back* been a little while but I do enjoy the crowd screaming for blood. Let’s do this.

And when I flip, and given black is Both a female on the internet and far better known and liked amongst you kids than I ever will be this thunderdome will be a blaze of glory for me, make sure you either yeet or town lock black based on what my alignment is. Seems fair. And I’m sure you are all intelligent enough to work out which alignment means which action

All votes need to be put on either me or black. You know the rules of the thunderdome.

[Dannflor]

there were some nasty jokes in the scum games i skimmed that would piss people off generally but i didn't really quote them because they were unpleasant

i really think that is just his personality

[Dannflor]

like i think a lot of the time thunderdoming / being abrasive / not making any apparent allies can be town indicative

but for a certain category of player it is not

[Dannflor]

I think if I set that aside I have no reason to town read Generic when I can find reasons to town read a lot of other slots

I think Abnegation has been scummy

[Dannflor]

this makes no sense

[Dannflor]

elli-tell is posting other places on site and neglecting this game

[Dannflor]

why are you unvoting

[Dannflor]

how about let’s intent t3 if you think I’m town now and t3 is in your meh pile and you have no other scum reads

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

i suck

[Dannflor]

pretty sure that comes from mafia who wants to claim a pr before he dies not an actual pr

how about let’s intent t3 if you think I’m town now and t3 is in your meh pile and you have no other scum reads

is there a world where dann is mafia and noticed what he thought was pr softing and told me to declare intent so he could get confirmation?

why on earth would this be my plan over just night killing T3

[Dannflor]

VOTE: iavh

[Dannflor]

i felt so good about that solve

[Dannflor]

ofc I wouldn't want to fade T3
I caught onto that soft and by the time I was available to hammer the CW I can't tell between Dann and Dunn I'm dumm kek
great I love being a wagoned

what

[Dannflor]

I don’t see any good IAVH associatives though, and my PoE is huge

what's your PoE

[Dannflor]

CCS just strikes me as a little too carefree to be scum here

[Dannflor]

ugh it's kind of a weird thing to say as scum that he caught onto T3's soft?

[Dannflor]

ahhhh idk if i like this iavh wagon. i'm having paranoid thoughts.

paranoid thoughts about who or what specifically, abnegation

[Dannflor]

@Dann can you elaborate on your Abnegation scumread?

half of it was predicated on T3 flipping scum lol

I do think scum are more likely to take things like meowmeow's unvote of me seriously

I also just think abnegation has been kind of inactive. Not in a literal activity sense but in the sense that she doesn't seem proactive at all

but idk im less of a believer in that read now

[Dannflor]

VOTE: abnegation

[Dannflor]

i felt so good about that solve

this reaction feels slightly concerning to me considering you shouldn't like... know t3 is town yet? i mean, obviously he's claimed doc etc, but i don't see why scum t3 wouldn't do that to draw a cc

i still thought t3 was scum until 685 which i thought was very towny

[Dannflor]

you're telling me

[Dannflor]

why is iavh town

[Dannflor]

if i assume black is town

then i think scum is just [iavh/dunnstral]

ig this is still the simplest solution

but it feels too easy

[Dannflor]

technically it was my 2nd solve

[Dannflor]

VOTE: dunnstral

[Dannflor]

It looks to me that you got wagoned without much of a reason.

i feel like this isn't true?

dunnstral were you trying to pocket me??

[Dannflor]

i think black is town
i think aureal is town
i think generic/abnegation is town

i think dannflor is scum

i don't always get all of dannflor's pushes and i'm trying to keep that in mind, but 124 feels almost comically exaggerated for such an early read. it feels less like genuine sorting and more like trying to bury black beneath a wall of text that people's eyes will glaze over and think "ok town lol"

if i have to pick things in particular i don't like about it, the vote thing seems really nitpicky - i really doubt timing of votes is alignment indicative in any way. dannflor later says to aureal "I don't scum read Black because "town Black should've thought about things better" but this is literally exactly what he is doing here - black didn't think to vote in the post where she originally scumreads ccg, and because of that she's scum because town would think to vote. and the idea that black pushing back against people who scumread her is scummy - this is a thing which like happens all the time, people push back against pushes on them they don't like. black in particular does it all the time. for an example from a game i finished yesterday, she pushes back on skitter's read here - i'm too lazy to get more but like it's a pattern of behaviour and not one that's exclusive to black. it feels like dannflor here is pushing back on things which are 'scummy' rather than things which are, like, actually scum indicative. also, he says "I "conveniently hopped on the wagon built by others"? Okay. What does this actually mean about my alignment? What makes it convenient that I joined a pre-existing wagon? Why would a town player not do this?". i don't think this is a genuine thought from dann - if he disagrees it's scummy he still

knows

people scumread opportunism, and don't like it when they feel like they're being piled on.

just in general i think it's kind of purposeful that he's creating these stretchy reasons to push black, and reads are never actually this strong this early in any case - this is page 5. the most likely reason for 124 that comes to my mind is - i might have already brought this up, but people townread cases and long posts. by just focusing on quantity in his push it's pretty easy for dannflor to get townread and seen as a 'solvey player' - this is the kind of read scum does make a lot but town also does it a lot

i also think there are several dannflor posts that just feel... kind of overly convenient for him. like when if black is town scum definitely aren't pushing her! or because of the claims we have to eliminate the person dannflor is pushing or someone who is probably the towniest player in the entire game.

i also think stuff like, black saying she's ok to die is stuff scum do all the time but town also do all the time. dannflor literally just saw me do this as town. like, to be fair, he also pushed it there, but i feel like town dann might thing something along the lines of "maybe town get a bit frustrated when they get pushed and sometimes say they are okay with dying"

i don't want to tunnel here but this is my starting point

VOTE: dannflor

pedit: i guess that's interesting. it was the first thing that stood out to me when reading through because like i have never felt any guilt at all when rolling scum ever. i know it's difficult to explain emotions but could you like, idk, elaborate on that guilt?

did you not read this post

[Dannflor]

I posted 409 which responded to post 349. Six minutes later, I posted 410 which responded to 393. That post had a notification for me, because you quoted something that I had said. Clicking that notification also takes you to the post in question. So I went from post 349 to post 393. The post you quoted is 351, and is on a different page from either of those posts.

So look, clearly I couldn't have read that post in six minutes, not to mention all the posts in between. The six minutes was spent on post 410, mainly figuring out what you were accusing me of.

As of my post 510 which you criticize above, the most recent vote count at the time is 487. In the votecount, you can click on post links to go to where the votes were placed. The posts linked are the same posts I linked above; and indeed, there seems to be very little conversation about why you should be the elimination in those posts.

you coulda just said you didn't see the post my guy

[Dannflor]

i don't hate a CCS / Dunnstral solve

i guess the CCS questioning when T3 and I were both at e-1 felt particularly toothless given the gamestate

[Dannflor]

dunnstral / black

[Dannflor]

sus

[Dannflor]

cop or tracker

why are you asking

[Dannflor]

lol i was just wondering if you were intentionally trying to dumb slip or something

[Dannflor]

i want to go back to tunnelling black

[Dannflor]

stubbornness

[Dannflor]

I don’t know if it was a rolefish but it is like a useless question to ask

[Dannflor]

aureal feels very towny here

[Dannflor]

that doesn't feel very real

[Dannflor]

like you have 4 people who had a negative reaction to your entrance today

why is aureal pushing at it specifically scummy

[Dannflor]

I think Aureal's tone seems genuine in her approach to you

I think she actually believes you are scum and what you are framing as like "dragging reasons out" is her trying to solve you

[Dannflor]

fwiw i think ccs' posting to enter the day is like surface-level scummy but i don't think it's actually scummy

[Dannflor]

VOTE: abnegation

[Dannflor]

fwiw i think ccs' posting to enter the day is like surface-level scummy but i don't think it's actually scummy

i think this is more true of abnegation than it is of snivy tbh

[Dannflor]

which posts of hers do you see that way?

[Dannflor]

idk maybe CCS is actually wolfy

he needs to explain his Aureal scum read better

[Dannflor]

i also wanna know why iavh is so town to him

[Dannflor]

lmao

[Dannflor]

meowmeow has me figured out

viewtopic.php?t=90035&start=125

me telling kittytacky exactly how to construct his reads list so i could bus him

[Dannflor]

hi omgussing im dannflor

are you enjoying this game?

[Dannflor]

i mean i want to agree but how likely is it that scum dannflor just lets happy do that

I don't know how scum Dannflor plays, and even considering your anecdote I still think this sequence of events from happy is very strange

i can see scum!iavh acting just as awkward in a situation where he is a kingmaker between two town wagons

idk if he's actually scum yet but that would be a very awkward position to be in especially as inexperienced scum

[Dannflor]

are you saying im scum?

[Dannflor]

you thought iavh was town before that though - is that just like a soul read?

[Dannflor]

im just asking you to explain your reads more bro pls

[Dannflor]

i hate that i keep agreeing with dannflor but i agree with dannflor

maybe we're both even town this game!

[Dannflor]

I was about to post that a snivy red flip probably spews iavh town

[Dannflor]

it feels really weird that like my most confident read right now is meowmeow town

(i dont know how to say this in a way that's not pockety sorry)

I just feel like I should be paranoid but all of your posts feel obv town to me

[Dannflor]

regarding iavh I guess I think it's kind of weird that iavh would admit to seeing the T3 crumb because that feels like a very scum indicative thing to admit to

[Dannflor]

we are all deepwolves on this blessed day

[Dannflor]

has alianna never rolled scum before

[Dannflor]

I can't find it help pls

[Dannflor]

if you're like around / have time / want to

can you go into specifics on why you town read black so much

[Dannflor]

I was about to post that a snivy red flip probably spews iavh town

and blue flip spews iavh town so good conclusion we have achieved here

huh

[Dannflor]

oh it was a hydra that's why I couldn't find it

[Dannflor]

I think what worries my about abnegation (aside from Generic just feeling well within his scum range and kind of LAMIST) is just how reactive and passive she is

and I mean I guess I can take the "not wanting to effort" thing at face value but I tend to think even townies who aren't specifically trying to effort inevitably have points where pro-active sorting or prodding comes out whether said townie is trying to effort or not

her play here just feels very observational and hedgey

none of it is like, spectacularly scummy or anything, but it feels safe - and it doesn't really feel like anything in this game is interesting to her. like she had a pretty wide PoE D1 but I don't really feel like I've been prodded or sorted by abnegation or that abnegation is trying to actively sort anyone else in her PoE

and I guess I just would've expected to see at least glimpses of that by now if she were town

[Dannflor]

yeah that makes sense

I also had the thought recently that her pivot from hard town reading me yesterday to considering iavh/dannflor today feels pretty natural as town reevaluating the game

I mean that's not a big thing on it's own but it's not really like scum!black needs to start scum reading me again here

[Dannflor]

i need to consider the world where snivy/iavh are town and someone is playing me.

what triggered this thought

[Dannflor]

i forgot that's a public alt x.x

she has and she like completely stomped that game. i found it while i was playing w/ her in bianco's game

if this is a pocket, it's working.

I think what worries my about abnegation (aside from Generic just feeling well within his scum range and kind of LAMIST) is just how reactive and passive she is

and I mean I guess I can take the "not wanting to effort" thing at face value but I tend to think even townies who aren't specifically trying to effort inevitably have points where pro-active sorting or prodding comes out whether said townie is trying to effort or not

her play here just feels very observational and hedgey

none of it is like, spectacularly scummy or anything, but it feels safe - and it doesn't really feel like anything in this game is interesting to her. like she had a pretty wide PoE D1 but I don't really feel like I've been prodded or sorted by abnegation or that abnegation is trying to actively sort anyone else in her PoE

and I guess I just would've expected to see at least glimpses of that by now if she were town

ah, yes, being town is sooooooooo interesting when it's the eighteenth time in a row (i swear i do actually like this game, but this is ridiculous ).
but jokes aside, i've heard a lot of this before and i think it's just what happens when i feel blah and checked out of a game. why do you think i'm more likely to play this way (passive, hedgy, disengaged) as scum than as town?

I think scum are generally more likely to play in that way