Open 902: Frienemies Blitz | Postgame

[T-Bone]

Sup do you need a T-Bone hero solve? It can be yours for only 5 easy payments of 99.99

[T-Bone]

Wait, wasn't all this T-Bones idea? And he hasn't even shown up yet??

Some suss mod play this game so far.

SCUM CLAIM GETTEM SCUMMERS

Sup do you need a T-Bone hero solve? It can be yours for only 5 easy payments of 99.99

Do we get a discount if we sign up Day 1?

Only 997

[T-Bone]

Next person to make the most convincing scum case explaining why Drew is scum gets my vote for the rest of the day

[T-Bone]

Next person to make the most convincing scum case explaining why Drew is scum gets my vote for the rest of the day

Drew has been scum in 100% of the games played with T-Bone up to this point.

That is a lock solid case, please hand over your vote to me

This is good, where am I voting?

[T-Bone]

Sup do you need a T-Bone hero solve? It can be yours for only 5 easy payments of 99.99

Last time we got one of those it was 100% town

Just afraid that you're in my solve

Processing

[T-Bone]

Sup do you need a T-Bone hero solve? It can be yours for only 5 easy payments of 99.99

Last time we got one of those it was 100% town

Just afraid that you're in my solve

Processing

Of course, cause we were part of that 100% town solve last time

I don't know what you think you're doing here but it's cute I guess?

Why is Python so rattled, is a question I will pose to the audience.

[T-Bone]

I just want to quote this fully because I think the end reaction by Python to my thinking aloud very early push on them is... like not a town reaction

i don't feel Python cares about actually sorting me (especially considering they later lump me into a scum read pile) but rather is here to solely play defense and "win" this interaction we had

Mind meld honestly.

[T-Bone]

I guess to be fair to that read Dann, I think it's correct, but as Python is referencing a previous game in their interactions with me, I think their goal is to "win" whatever it is they are doing with me as well. Which is...consistent with what i think of them as a player and I'm not sure is alignment indicative behavior.

[T-Bone]

Tbone can you clarify your python read

I don't have one? Other than what I said I think of them as a player in regards to Dann's observation.

[T-Bone]

{usesPyrhon}
{Naerys}
{light_ganski, gob}
{Black}
{Dannflor}

P1.

VOTE: Dannflor

Coward where's my scum read?

[T-Bone]

I just want to quote this fully because I think the end reaction by Python to my thinking aloud very early push on them is... like not a town reaction

i don't feel Python cares about actually sorting me (especially considering they later lump me into a scum read pile) but rather is here to solely play defense and "win" this interaction we had

Mind meld honestly.

Same

Does anyone who knows them know if python is this reactive as town?

It's certainly possible!

I'm actually surprised Python is not more bothered by this. Is it growth or an instinct to try and not get scum read for getting into it with anyone? I'm hoping for the former, for the record.

[T-Bone]

pretty general scum tell that I've had a lot of success using is outsized emotional reactions when the prompt doesn't match up. it doesn't really matter if it's defensiveness or sadness or anger, or what have you. the fact is i don't think my push matches up with python's reaction, which i think is unnatural

also another element to it is python also leaning into trying to look unbothered by my read on them? which i would think if town and having a naturally defensive reaction would not feel the need to do

This is the vibe I was referencing, Light. But as I said, it could be some character growth. Not wanting to get into it with other players over silly things is a Good Thing regardless of alignment.

[T-Bone]

light_ganski

T-Bone

Doctor Drew

davesaz

gob

Cook

Naerys

Black

usesPython

Ranger

Dannflor

Ausuka

Coward where's my red color?

[T-Bone]

T-bone

YOU'VE FALLEN FOR MY TRAP CARD!

[T-Bone]

Now we can lim scum!STD's life points directly

[T-Bone]

Coward where's my scum read?

Tempting as it'd be to scumread someone with almost exactly opposite reads to me, my efforts are best spent identifying town/scum.

Your reads identify you as the former, alas.

I....haven't professed any reads. Curious.

[T-Bone]

Got you again STD muhahahahahahaha

[T-Bone]

Whoever it was that said gob+black, I don't think I see them as scum together

I do.

The interactions between Dannflor, Black, and gob scream distancing with intentions to fake organic interactions, yet falling flat. Given Black and Dannflor are both deepwolf players, if they decide distancing isn’t enough, gob's the most expendable.

It’s still possible gob's just town being used, but Dannflor and Black are locks for scum.

I'd like to see this illustrated though

[DragonEater70]

Sorry I have plot armor, trouble is no match

[T-Bone]

DAMMIT

[T-Bone]

It was a question to the rest of you. Whether you think they were or not. Indirectly I think Dann answered and I had a related conversation with Light about it. Like, I think it was clear what I was doing when I offered a hero solve for 5 payments of 99.99. It's worth contrasting why Python was so hostile to the idea. I don't like to argue with people about their own behavior, that's not productive. I like to ask the rest of the players about people's behavior.

[T-Bone]

Okay STD wins I'm out of TGCs

[T-Bone]

STD never wins as town though so confirmed scum GOTTEM

[T-Bone]

I'd like to see this illustrated though

There’s less than 11 pages, of which the three players in question combined make up less than 3 pages. Since not every post they make relates to each other, it’s even easier to narrow down.

I’m mobile rn, try a triple iso of the players and see if you can see what I did. When not mobile, I can save you the work, yet all I’ll be doing is linking the posts in question. You already have my analysis of them; there’s nothing extra to give.

I'm a visual learner. I can wait.

[T-Bone]

Lorcana was my hail mary ngl

[T-Bone]

Cool, will you help me fade gob then?

I'd prefer a deepwolf before I'm killed.

I'll settle for a bus if need be.

You sound like me

I'm not interested in voting Dann today. gob wagon has plenty of room though *pats the seat next to me*

Hilariously this is the exact reason Ranger is against a gob move.

[T-Bone]

It was a question to the rest of you. Whether you think they were or not. Indirectly I think Dann answered and I had a related conversation with Light about it. Like, I think it was clear what I was doing when I offered a hero solve for 5 payments of 99.99. It's worth contrasting why Python was so hostile to the idea. I don't like to argue with people about their own behavior, that's not productive. I like to ask the rest of the players about people's behavior.

I mean, it very much does not come across as a neutral question. "Why is Python so rattled, is a question I will pose to the audience." is almost like, the definition of a leading question actually. If Python is rattled, that obviously implies they are scum I think. Saying they are hostile to the idea is also something that, if true, I don't understand the town motivation you think is there. Personally, I just see it as a simple response that they don't want your hero solve because it was completely wrong last time, but if you think they're hostile to it or rattled, why not push it? i don't understand your approach here.

I'm either going to get a response of people agreeing with me or pushing back on me so I don't think the wording of the question or being neutral matters all that much in this instance. If someone thinks strongly that Python isn't rattled they might quote me and call me out on it.

I'm not sure if you're questioning my town motivation or Python's so I'll answer for me. Because this is how I play, I want people to react to things I say. One of the ways I do that is point something out and ask if anyone else is seeing it? You can ask the meta folk if that sort of thing appeals to you.

As to why I'm not pushing it you're not reading the thread since I had several posts of discussion about this very thing with Dann and Light. No, I didn't use the word rattle again, but I think I demonstrated how I was choosing to advance that thought process. Question the town motivation of that if you wish. If you're questioning why I didn't vote it's because I didn't feel like it.

[T-Bone]

As it turns out, not everyone was interested in this observation and we moved on.

[T-Bone]

I think I'm comfortable calling light ganski town

Should I post this in the main thread too or will that confirm Python's hero solve?

[T-Bone]

KK I lean town on Light

[T-Bone]

Cute!

[T-Bone]

I think I'm comfortable calling light ganski town

Should I post this in the main thread too or will that confirm Python's hero solve?

um wat

(i'm doing a bit)

[T-Bone]

I blame needing to write a well written response to Ausuka on flubbing my comedic timing there

ausuka scum for that alone

[T-Bone]

I’m wondering what Tbone thinks of Python and vice versa

You clearly did not read their hero solve.

As for what I think, I don't know. Nothing Python has said or done has really surprised me outside of Python not getting super defensive over silly stuff. That's different for sure, but not anything I have pinned down. Gut wants me to say town so we'll see.

[T-Bone]

324 and 325 is literally the best thing they've done this game though so that's exciting.

[T-Bone]

Gob is very clearly trying to advance the game state so I don't think a low hanging label can apply here. If you think what he are doing is scummy that's one thing, but he's not doing nothing.

[T-Bone]

i think its Dann-python-Black

Scum team might be ranger+light+python

Why so much interest in naming 3 people so early?

I think people really want to take the hero solve thing seriously it's a little cringe ngl

[T-Bone]

This is unacceptable Black can be scum for many reasons not related to IRL sheesh

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Ausuka

[T-Bone]

Whoops I forgot to ask Drew's permission oh well.

[T-Bone]

Oh please elaborate I can't wait

[T-Bone]

Looks like my tablet doesn't think tbone is a word

wow banned

[T-Bone]

why python

I feel like Dannflors analysis said it wel enough. For me i have sorta ruled out a lot of others, but python consistently does moves that i feel are anti-town.

i dont feel as strongly on anyone, except maybe T-bone as their is a contrast in how T-bone was talking about the V/LA stuff and how T-bone talked about everything else. Feels like scum

I have a few minutes, but are you really taking T-Bone going a bit into list mod mode and commenting on the v/la stuff.......as a scum tell?

Python, scale of 1-10, how high is this on the Drew Post Meter(or DPM for short)?

Well, not even listmod mode. Questioning v/la has always been a pet peeve of mine.

But also I was pretty snarky about Black so was that post really different from the rest of my snark? Am I losing my edge? Who do I need to call a coward to get it back?

[T-Bone]

lmao this wagon.

[T-Bone]

The main thing about Ausuka that has me uneasy is the fact that she isn't really involved in the game? I might be able to attribute that to it being a blitz game and Ausuka being unable to adjust. At the same time I'm worried Ausuka is hiding behind not being able to get into a blitz game to justify why she feels so spectatory.

Welcome to Ausuka is scum.

[T-Bone]

Yh I gave t-bone's ISO another skim earlier bcos I'd been thinking he hadn't been that active and when I realised he'd made over 40 posts I wondered why he was under my radar. But I don't see it

I'm just constantly beyond the 12 hour prod range.

[T-Bone]

I think T-bone is probably still the scummiest player in the game. I hope this was clear from what I said earlier but - I think his thought process in the early interaction with python doesn't make sense. I don't really believe he asks "Why is python so rattled?" as a neutral question, or that such a thing is natural to do. When I asked about it, he said that it could get responses anyway, which is like true to an extent, but 1) you're going to get more responses if you don't make it look like a rhetorical question and 2) I just don't see the thought process that leads to T-bone not thinking python is scummy and asking that. His play feels overly cautious and unnatural to me. This hasn't changed over time; his posts in general don't really feel interested in finding other people's alignments.

I'll be honest, this is the fakest thing to ever fake. Is there a less charged synonym for bad faith? Because Ausuka was like that for this interaction she is referencing. She asked me to explain both my python read and why I asked a certain question, and I answered earnestly. She never responds to that, but later puts on a naked vote after I have a fun PT slip with Dann over Python's hero solve. Ausuka doesn't actually seem interested in my thoughts which is why she uses vague terms like unnatural to describe how she feels about me. Ausuka is interested in a mislim for sure.

Take a look. I believe I grabbed the relevant quotes but if I missed something let me know.

It was a question to the rest of you. Whether you think they were or not. Indirectly I think Dann answered and I had a related conversation with Light about it. Like, I think it was clear what I was doing when I offered a hero solve for 5 payments of 99.99. It's worth contrasting why Python was so hostile to the idea. I don't like to argue with people about their own behavior, that's not productive. I like to ask the rest of the players about people's behavior.

I mean, it very much does not come across as a neutral question. "Why is Python so rattled, is a question I will pose to the audience." is almost like, the definition of a leading question actually. If Python is rattled, that obviously implies they are scum I think. Saying they are hostile to the idea is also something that, if true, I don't understand the town motivation you think is there. Personally, I just see it as a simple response that they don't want your hero solve because it was completely wrong last time, but if you think they're hostile to it or rattled, why not push it? i don't understand your approach here.

I'm either going to get a response of people agreeing with me or pushing back on me so I don't think the wording of the question or being neutral matters all that much in this instance. If someone thinks strongly that Python isn't rattled they might quote me and call me out on it.

I'm not sure if you're questioning my town motivation or Python's so I'll answer for me. Because this is how I play, I want people to react to things I say. One of the ways I do that is point something out and ask if anyone else is seeing it? You can ask the meta folk if that sort of thing appeals to you.

As to why I'm not pushing it you're not reading the thread since I had several posts of discussion about this very thing with Dann and Light. No, I didn't use the word rattle again, but I think I demonstrated how I was choosing to advance that thought process. Question the town motivation of that if you wish. If you're questioning why I didn't vote it's because I didn't feel like it.

VOTE: T-bone

i'm reading the thread!

Sorry, this is all Ausuka can manage to say? If you think she's trying to sort me, go look at all this again. Because the next time we hear from Ausuka about this read is to start my flash wagon lol which is the post I quote at the start of this. There's nothing between the naked vote in 300 and her great explanation of this read 537 to justify this new wagon. If the way I treated Python was so unnatural, shouldn't I be pushed on that? Asked to explain my contradictions or whatever?

[T-Bone]

The main thing about Ausuka that has me uneasy is the fact that she isn't really involved in the game? I might be able to attribute that to it being a blitz game and Ausuka being unable to adjust. At the same time I'm worried Ausuka is hiding behind not being able to get into a blitz game to justify why she feels so spectatory.

Welcome to Ausuka is scum.

To expand upon this I had to go get the receipts in my post above. Looking through Ausuka's ISO it really is just that one time she asked me to elaborate on my Python stance huh?

[T-Bone]

Yes but the tone of that question is meh

[T-Bone]

My read on T-Bone is he's a competent enough scum player to fake caring about finding scum and him focusing on finding an elimination for today would be the easiest thing in the world for him to fake.

actually sorry i can't help myself this read is so bad

t-bone is very clearly trying to look like he cares about finding scum and focusing on the elimination

see: his posts about python and his posts about ausuka

however for a variety of reasons i see these movements as fake

Actually tell me about this more. What posts about ausuka were you so confidentially referencing?

[T-Bone]

tbone do you have thoughts on anyone not named Ausuka

My read on T-Bone is he's a competent enough scum player to fake caring about finding scum and him focusing on finding an elimination for today would be the easiest thing in the world for him to fake.

actually sorry i can't help myself this read is so bad

t-bone is very clearly trying to look like he cares about finding scum and focusing on the elimination

see: his posts about python and his posts about ausuka

however for a variety of reasons i see these movements as fake

Actually tell me about this more. What posts about ausuka were you so confidentially referencing?

Since you know my game so well of course to imply I have tunneled on one slot. I want to make sure we're on the same page about my reads and my game here.

[T-Bone]

the tone wasn't accusatory im just trying to make a decision about who to vote and knowing your views on other people in this game would be helpful

Okay who do you want? I've expressed a few and they haven't changed. I'm fine townbinning light and python. I want to townbin Ranger but I have this pocket fear that because I agree with everything Ranger says she's actually scum. Not something I want to deal with on Day 1 but that's there.

[T-Bone]

Sorry, I just chastised you for being imprecise with your language and I need to take care and not do the same.

More that I see Ranger's thought processes and find myself thinking this is coming from town trying to figure things out. I don't agree with all her reads, but I see how she is approaching the game and I like it. I like that when I asked her to provide receipts for her solve she did so. I like her explanation on what she sees from Naerys and Python. While we don't agree on the Ausuka-slot alignment, I think 582 (I'll quote it in another post if need be) voices my feelings on that slot better than even I did (because I'm admittedly self-centered in my play because it's how I can conceptualize the game).

[T-Bone]

I'm not going to advocate for the lim of JV this close to the deadline. I don't know what that means for my vote yet.

[T-Bone]

If I am still the closest when deadline hits obviously lim me. It sucks but what are you going to do we need flips.

[T-Bone]

I'd probably want to lim inside my flashwagon tbh

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Dave

[T-Bone]

I could do Cook as a compromise.

I am suppressing the urge to follow Ranger here since I'm being defended and I know that is coloring how I see these posts.

[T-Bone]

i don't think it's a PT slip but i think it could be something else, want more clarity

as for T-bone you silly goose i have 2 blue mana untapped you know what that means?

Spoiler:

Fool. It aint a spell card, was a trap card.

Wow JV is my mason buddy but we have a separate 2 person masonry

[T-Bone]

I'M AFRAID I HAVE SOME BAD NEWS

[T-Bone]

Okay going to drop a list of where my head is at.

Town Lean
-Light
-Ranger

Null Lean
-Python
-Gob

Null
-Cook
-Naerys
-STD
-Drew

Scum Lean
-Black
-Dann
-Dave

Scumlike
-JV

Just a quick run down, I feel the best about Light and Ranger (my misgivings about agreeing with Ranger's approach aside), their progression, and their efforts to sincerely try to solve the game. Python and Gob exist in a space where I can see them as town but that's it. The Nulls just haven't left much of an impression on me. I think I'm a bit of a coward on STD by not committing him up or down but what can you do?

The scum leans are more leans than they are reads. I haven't expressed them in the thread. It's some combination of gut feeling and process of elimination. While JV is my mason buddy now I suspect this game is bastard and their slot could still be scum.

I'm not really confident anywhere and would compromise on anyone after Ranger.

[T-Bone]

My reads list was not meant to be the bad news but it fits.

[T-Bone]

Scumlike being the strongest scum-leaning read you've got? How strong is that. "like" doesn't show too much weight behind it just by the nature of the word but that doesn't make a whole lotta sense with you only having weak scum-leans otherwise?

It's how I do my lists. I don't want to get into the mindset that I know people's alignments. I suspect things, and this is how I represent my feelings in that regards. The language is intentional to convey my feelings.

[T-Bone]

I'M AFRAID I HAVE SOME BAD NEWS

+town points good job

[T-Bone]

what's the case against Dann?

I'm not as convinced it's Dann as I am on Black/Ganski. I feel people are treating him in weird ways, the middle of the pack read between both my other SRs make me think that they're just putting them there to "distance". I also hated how he was talking with T-Bone as of the last 10 pages or so. It felt he was trying to rile up rather than do anything actually productive.

I don't think that last part is accurate.

[T-Bone]

Intent to hammer, I am hovering around this thread. (Yes I know no one is at e-1 yet)

[T-Bone]

I'm liking my company on the Black wagon far more than the composition of the Python wagon.

Talk me through it. The wagon composition looks weird to me when I look at, and I can't pin down why.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone
Doctor Drew
davesaz
humaneatingmonkey

i think is my preferred lim pool.

i think all four slots have been very low content and not really doing much to advance the gamestate, preferring the status quo of going after gob, python, and now black

This is whack considering I tried to get JV's slot gone.

What have you done to advance the gamestate? I'm looking for some self analysis, that's not a gotcha question.

[T-Bone]

Intent to hammer, I am hovering around this thread. (Yes I know no one is at e-1 yet)

im not sure i like this post esp coupled with no other posts from Tbone since

Clearly I want to reserve the hammer to ensure we mislim the right person

[T-Bone]

T-Bone
Doctor Drew
davesaz
humaneatingmonkey

i think is my preferred lim pool.

i think all four slots have been very low content and not really doing much to advance the gamestate, preferring the status quo of going after gob, python, and now black

This is whack considering I tried to get JV's slot gone.

What have you done to advance the gamestate? I'm looking for some self analysis, that's not a gotcha question.

Yet I stand

Your day will come

[T-Bone]

I'm liking my company on the Black wagon far more than the composition of the Python wagon.

Talk me through it. The wagon composition looks weird to me when I look at, and I can't pin down why.

Going to add to this. I don't particularly like JV's push of Black. I know you read gob as town and thus, Black's preferred lim is wrong, but I don't like the way that JV is almost working backwards from this conclusion to go "aha Black is tunneling town, this is scum behavior!" while twirling a baton.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone
Doctor Drew
davesaz
humaneatingmonkey

i think is my preferred lim pool.

i think all four slots have been very low content and not really doing much to advance the gamestate, preferring the status quo of going after gob, python, and now black

This is whack considering I tried to get JV's slot gone.

What have you done to advance the gamestate? I'm looking for some self analysis, that's not a gotcha question.

i didn't say doing nothing

I've been pushing you, i've been pushing cook, i've been questioning the votes/wagons on my town reads, i voted black then reconsidered, i'm waffling through my python read as of current

I'd dispute that you're pushing me. It's more like a poke in the self-checkout line, but I won't dispute this further.

[T-Bone]

I'm liking my company on the Black wagon far more than the composition of the Python wagon.

Talk me through it. The wagon composition looks weird to me when I look at, and I can't pin down why.

Going to add to this. I don't particularly like JV's push of Black. I know you read gob as town and thus, Black's preferred lim is wrong, but I don't like the way that JV is almost working backwards from this conclusion to go "aha Black is tunneling town, this is scum behavior!" while twirling a baton.

Admire my magnificent baton

I was going for a black and white era movie villain look

[T-Bone]

I'd dispute that you're pushing me.

i'd say this post here is me pushing you

I'm really mad at myself for clicking that but also I think that illustrates my point. Because I sincerely clicked on it to see what you said about me.

[T-Bone]

Going to add to this. I don't particularly like JV's push of Black. I know you read gob as town and thus, Black's preferred lim is wrong, but I don't like the way that JV is almost working backwards from this conclusion to go "aha Black is tunneling town, this is scum behavior!" while twirling a baton.

I agree with this. People who have played way more games with me and are much better at reading me are telling him that I might be town and he just laughs them off or makes some joke instead of reevaluating

I really want to just autoflip him if python flips scum but that would probably be a bad play

You're gonna lose me at complaining about jokes because that's 50% of my mafia site ISO

[T-Bone]

Black and Virgo arent SvS, maybe SvT but most likely TvT

eyeroll emoji

[T-Bone]

Intent

[T-Bone]

Black and Virgo arent SvS, maybe SvT but most likely TvT

eyeroll emoji

Yes.

So and so aren't scum vs scum is one of the most cringe inducing things to say on the planet

[T-Bone]

You should nightkill me tonight.

[T-Bone]

Just looked back and actually, no dave is like INCREDIBLY townie

Agreed.

Anyway as for T-bone. I ISO'd T-bone and especially in the beginning they took hard stances that I wouldn't expect from a scum. I'm not clearing T-bone persay. But considering T-bone never voted for Python the entire Day 1, they were worth looking at and making a judgement on.

I would have hammered Python before deadline but it got done before I did it.

However, that would have been me compromising as they weren't high on my scum list. I gave them more latitude than I should have and that's on me.

Obviously I cannot prove I would have hammered since it didn't happen but my intent make sure we got a lim was there.

[T-Bone]

Ah I should have taken it

[T-Bone]

Tinfoil hat:

If gob is town, then Python must really thought deepdown that he's telling the truth in #836 - as he could have done things differently if he thought he had the chance of pushing for a gob elimination.

Python's list of people who would go for Gob
- light/Black/Ranger/Python/Drew/Dave

Python's list of people who wouldn't vote for Gob
- gob/Naerys/Dann/HEM/STD/T-Bone/JV

Then everyone in the list of people who wouldn't vote for Gob is just town, and Python slipped.

Counterpoint. Is this not a surface level factual state of the game? Seems like everyone voiced an opinion of where they would go for gob or not.

(Counter to my counter, six votes is essentially 7 because someone will hammer so why not try?)

[T-Bone]

But if there's a tiny glimmer that gob could have been the elimination (AND NOT HIM), then i think they should have played that hand. It means the hand wasn't available to be played.

That's a very good point, I need to think on that. Top of the dome theory is that possibly his support line and the people that were pro-gob may not have been the same people, I need to check this because I'm just throwing ideas at the wall but that is where my gut first tells me to look.

Hahaha exactly the thoughts I had.

[T-Bone]

Well, I'm never thrilled to be gaslit in front of my fucking face. But I can cope.

Oh finally real emotion instead of these closed off responses you have been giving lol.

I have been saying quite a bit here I think you are trying for a push on gob.

I have been in the minority saying that gob isn't obvtown, and think he is scummy.

But your push here, and yes it is a push, makes me question what your intentions are here.

Like it seems you saw there was support for a gob lim in that python post, and latched onto it.

This is actually weird. Should we not look at what Python was doing for associations?

[T-Bone]

VOTE: black

Intent to hammer, I am hovering around this thread. (Yes I know no one is at e-1 yet)

StD's vote tied our wagons at 5 votes each and that's when T-Bone declares intent. It almost feels like the intent was made on me even though python and I were both at 5

Looking back on this I don't know why scum!StD would move back to python after this when my fade was absolutely possible. If there is scum on the wagon then it's probably dave

Come get me!

[T-Bone]

I think dann was killed bcz his reads were dangerous to scum so we should stick to his solve

Or that he soft claimed mason

[T-Bone]

I'd never let myself get limmed day 1 as scum but otherwise I don't have an issue with the analysis.

[T-Bone]

I probably could have stopped the Python wagon too. But that is a fantasy world sadly.

[T-Bone]

no okay if im wrong i still think this is largely a town driven wagon
but I'd scrutinize naerys pretty closely and I'd reevaluate on black probably
still think light_ganski is scummy either way

This I agree with 100%.

The reason why I had Python and Naerys as my top tier townreads yesterday was I saw their early interactions on the first pages as mason distancing. I thought Ausuka was the third Mason similarly so.

Having thought I identified the masons, when I saw Dannflor with a few others doing identically to Python and Naerys, I thought he was scum, because I already had found the masons.

Now I think I got it exactly backwards. I'll have the receipts later.

I think I know who Dann's partners might be but I'm not sure whether that is worth speculating out in the open.

[T-Bone]

Either way I think I want to focus efforts on Dann's solve since we have the lead anyway. That's Light, Dave, Drew, and myself.

[T-Bone]

Black... this set up is open.

[T-Bone]

That looks like a fake as hell attempt at a town slip I'm not gonna lie.

[T-Bone]

I'm mobile so sorry for the successive posting. I'd put my reads as

The Dann tier (Light, Dave, Drew)
The Bone tier (JV, Black, Gob/Naerys)
The should be scum tier but probably isn't (STD, maybe also Naerys)
Everyone else (Ranger, HEM)

[T-Bone]

I'd never let myself get limmed day 1 as scum but otherwise I don't have an issue with the analysis.

What is the point of saying this

I love talking up my scum game. But also I think it's a useful tool for me to get through to the meta based players.

[T-Bone]

I never argue that I'm town. Come at me with your scumread, I already asked you once!

[T-Bone]

I asked Black to come at me with her scumread at the start of the day.

[T-Bone]

I think I know who Dann's partners might be but I'm not sure whether that is worth speculating out in the open.

Is this real life

Is this actually a post someone made this game

Yes want me to make it again?

Also, Ranger is all but claiming who she thinks the masons are. But this you have a problem with? Lol

[T-Bone]

I think I know who Dann's partners might be but I'm not sure whether that is worth speculating out in the open

What do you think the benefits of speculating about the mason team are?

Something to do with Ranger's reads but it's not necessary now.

[T-Bone]

I think I know who Dann's partners might be but I'm not sure whether that is worth speculating out in the open

What do you think the benefits of speculating about the mason team are?

Something to do with Ranger's reads but it's not necessary now.

Were you trying to prove her wrong? Was it like a pride or a flex thing or was there actually something beneficial involved

Like I can see a world where you just wanted to let everyone know you had the right Mason solve but I can't think of any benefits to playing Guess the Masons. Scum can gauge the reactions around the discussion and narrow their targets down

What are you on about exactly? I'd love to hear the theory of what you think I was trying to do.

[T-Bone]

Ranger, while I appreciate the enthusiasm to call me town your energy is better spent elsewhere. I cannot be mislimmed without scum practically revealing themselves to do it. Incidentally...I think I have to call STD town because of that.

[T-Bone]

What kind of amateur hour is this?

[T-Bone]

What kind of amateur hour is this?

Apparently the kind where you think it's ok to promote discussing mason solves.

It might be worth going back and seeing which player I was talking to in light of a recent post by said player.

[T-Bone]

Did you cross reference with Dann's reads?

[T-Bone]

Did you cross reference with Dann's reads?

As I saw it, there were two possible mason combos.

Some combination of usesPython, Naerys, and Ausuka (possibly with another substituted out),
Or Dannflor with his pals.

Dannflor would never be masons with any of usesPython, Naerys, or Ausuka.

If that was unclear, I apologize. Dannflor being a mason was mutually exclusive with the others being masons. I thought they were masons and Dannflor wasn't. I was willing to acknowledge I could be wrong. I could've been wrong with Dannflor as a VT despite me spotting mason signals. I could've been wrong and Dannflor was a mason meaning none of those I believed were masons would be.

Does that clarify?

Dannflor pushing usesPython meant nothing to me because as I saw it they were already effectively a 1v1 in terms of mason claim v mason claim in subtext. Same vice-versa. I believed usesPython over Dannflor.

It's clear to me, I was trying to avoid the po-po patrol because they didn't like when I asked the first time.

[T-Bone]

no okay if im wrong i still think this is largely a town driven wagon
but I'd scrutinize naerys pretty closely and I'd reevaluate on black probably
still think light_ganski is scummy either way

This I agree with 100%.

The reason why I had Python and Naerys as my top tier townreads yesterday was I saw their early interactions on the first pages as mason distancing. I thought Ausuka was the third Mason similarly so.

Having thought I identified the masons, when I saw Dannflor with a few others doing identically to Python and Naerys, I thought he was scum, because I already had found the masons.

Now I think I got it exactly backwards. I'll have the receipts later.

I think I know who Dann's partners might be but I'm not sure whether that is worth speculating out in the open.

What kind of amateur hour is this?

Apparently the kind where you think it's ok to promote discussing mason solves.

It might be worth going back and seeing which player I was talking to in light of a recent post by said player.

You're probably reading me wrong.
I'm stating firmly that it's never ok to discuss mason solves.
Your post

should

have said "it's not worth speculating in the open". Or just don't mention thinking you know at all.
Then there would be no reason for me or others to comment.

This rings hollow because I was not the first player to bring this up. I don't remember you getting mad about Ranger or Dann actually talking about masons. No, I ask Ranger a question (because I knew where she was going) and you and Black must immediately stand up firmly against the evil mason hunt that I am performing for my lords the scum team. This is what we call inconsistency in the biz.

[T-Bone]

Typical Enchant replacing into a scum slot.

[T-Bone]

No Enchant we're masons you can't tell them

[T-Bone]

In this game a certain kind of joke can also be role fishing. I have noticed 2 TR and 1 SL who might have gone fishing. That's somewhat troubling.

Wasn't unnoticed. We have an hour and 45 to switch.

@T-Bone -- I noted those posts, scolded people about them

(in a way that avoids talking about masons myself)

, and referred to it again. Are you reading?

It's one post out of 1600 but fair enough you did it I'll go back to yelling at Black for this.

[T-Bone]

t bone and enchant need to give 50% more effort

0+50%=0%

Actually you should have multiplied

50% x 0% = 0%

[T-Bone]

the third is someone like T-Bone

Or Naerys

I still think Naerys would have swapped to me and let T-Bone hammer if she's scum. Idk, maybe they were committed to the bus cred but it really feels like the scum team was trying to save python. Her swapping off should have been part of that plan

I actually think this is correct if Black is town.

[T-Bone]

I'm mobile so sorry for the successive posting. I'd put my reads as

The Dann tier (Light, Dave, Drew)
The Bone tier (JV, Black, Gob/Naerys)
The should be scum tier but probably isn't (STD, maybe also Naerys)
Everyone else (Ranger, HEM)

Updating this to make more sense

Town lean
Ranger
HEM
STD
Gob

Null Lean
Naerys
Black
Drew
Dave
JV

Scum Lean
Light

Ugh. Light fits the best with what I think I know, and with Python. I don't think JV/Dave are scum together, but one still could be. I don't think Black and Drew are together. Naerys is only barely in my null lean section tbh. I might move them up to town.

Let me start with the slot I think will flip scum though.

VOTE: Enchant

[T-Bone]

T-Bone, would you case Enchanted Light for me?

Yes I can. My case is more Dann + voting + falling off after early content I felt good about. I'll look back through some specifics though.

[T-Bone]

And there are some bigger things I doubt when it comes to Naerys, and smaller things about JV, that made me decide the Enchant slot over them despite saying that I liked Ranger's analysis.

[T-Bone]

Can you let me live on slot without bullshit accusations for atleast hour

I made us masons hours ago! Come on!

[T-Bone]

I have a little dissonance in my head, I think the desire to be right is making it difficult to see this game for what it is.

Always my feeling

[T-Bone]

You've been pushing me and that's wrong are you convinced now??????

[T-Bone]

Rude!

[T-Bone]

would you settle for enchant

but would you?

[T-Bone]

LOL predits

[T-Bone]

o7s Enchant we will miss you.

[T-Bone]

Personally, if I had to guess I would say Drew lazy town, I lean town on JacksonVirgo, and believe it's Naerys + Enchant. However, I know I could be wrong on my guess, so I will vote anyone not clearly town.

you vote "not clearly town" virgo but here you lean town on them
some contradictions, smh

Personally, if I had to guess I would say Drew lazy town, I lean town on JacksonVirgo, and believe it's Naerys + Enchant. However, I know I could be wrong on my guess, so I will vote anyone not clearly town.

you vote "not clearly town" virgo but here you lean town on them
some contradictions, smh

Glad I was not the only one who saw that lol

Kinda making me rethink my Jackson vote

If we don't have the support for Jackson I'd rather go Enchant over dave or Ranger

Why over Ranger?

I'm torn on Ranger but I feel like she's been trying to solve the game. Dann seemed pretty convinced she was in her town meta and I generally trust his reads. Also I don't really think scum!Ranger makes the move she did at the end of D1 to save python. I've gone back and forth on this but someone said the risk far outweighs the reward and I think I agree

What about her voting Jackson, then calling him a town read?

I just wanna say y'all cannot be serious right now. Ranger clearly said her PoE is 4 and JV was the most likely to be town among those 4 based on her reads. Clear as day holy moly.

[T-Bone]

How did I get the job of pointing out the obvious in Ranger's posts? I know Ranger is very long winded but I've never seen a player lay out their thoughts clearer than her this game.

[T-Bone]

If anyone wants to counterclaim, do it now or else it doesn't count. I can trade myself for another scum. If you're town, absolutely do not counterclaim.

Awww I was gonna counter claim but alright.

This helps me. I thought there was a chance Naerys was the other mason. I need to reevaluate some reads anyway.

[T-Bone]

gob believes a townie doesnt say “null lean”, and that T-Bone's only one scumread (which is suspicious in itself, you should have multiple i guess) is a classic low hanging fruit - Enchant.

there gob. i tried my best.

Sadly for gob a townie does say null lean, specifically me, all the time. It's my classification for players I am waffling on. As I pointed out, the reason I had waffled on Naerys is that I thought maybe Naerys was the 3rd mason (I had pegged gob as the second already). You can see evidence of this in the first list you quoted where I put gob/Naerys together in the Bone tier because I was suspicious one was a mason and one was scum but not sure which. Then I went back and decided Gob was definitely a mason, (and my next read list reflected that) and I couldn't shake the feeling on Naerys.

Usually I add another label to stratify my reads list more but this time I didn't.

For what it's worth I share my reads list for the benefit of the class. In my head my reads are more like a cloud of dust but I cannot depict that so easily in text.

[T-Bone]

Aww I'm okay with you too

[T-Bone]

Good thing I didn't blindly vote lol

[T-Bone]

Eventually I will be right, surely lmfao

Not here you won't :p

[T-Bone]

I'm not complaining about being pushed, I completely understand it but expanding on my reasoning from yesterday. Enchant and I were both Town getting pushed to a pretty substantial degree and T-Bone just did not put pressure anywhere unlike his presence in the early game.

I can push you more if that will make you feel better. This rings like a hollow complaint because I stopped pushing your slot based on how you were approaching things upon entry. You're not that same player now if that's the standard you want to set.

(I mean I'm the same but this is your argument)

[T-Bone]

why are we town reading Black and StD again

I don't think there's many town reading Black but to put it diplomatically STD is tunneling based on personality rather than play and that makes me think town because I think scum!STD would be looking at things in people's play that makes sense as scum. Do you know why STD thinks Ranger or I are scum? I don't. I think STD is stubborn and feels married to his reads, he decided I was scum on Day 1 and has never questioned this since. Don't get me wrong, most players do this. I definitely do this. I should have done this yesterday and kept my town read of Enchant's slot but that's on me because I let being wrong on Python shake me.

[T-Bone]

Just realised T-bone probably tried pocketing Ranger as of yesterday

Oh I hope so.

(If anyone is pocketed it's me)

[T-Bone]

I'm going to go ahead and get out in front of this...but if you think I am scum then push me. Whether that's STD, Black, JV, or someone else. And I don't mean cast side eye about me possibly being scum. That's really boring. I mean do something about it, and do something about it today. Go through my ISO, make your case. I have been asking for this since Day 1. Yes, sorry, I'm going to make it difficult for you to eliminate me. But don't shy away.

[T-Bone]

The only person I actually believe thinks I am scum right now is STD. There is much evidence he is town but I'm not seeing it especially from JV frankly.

[T-Bone]

why are we town reading Black and StD again

I don't think there's many town reading Black but to put it diplomatically STD is tunneling based on personality rather than play and that makes me think town because I think scum!STD would be looking at things in people's play that makes sense as scum. Do you know why STD thinks Ranger or I are scum? I don't. I think STD is stubborn and feels married to his reads, he decided I was scum on Day 1 and has never questioned this since. Don't get me wrong, most players do this. I definitely do this. I should have done this yesterday and kept my town read of Enchant's slot but that's on me because I let being wrong on Python shake me.

I'm going to go ahead and get out in front of this...but if you think I am scum then push me. Whether that's STD, Black, JV, or someone else. And I don't mean cast side eye about me possibly being scum. That's really boring. I mean do something about it, and do something about it today. Go through my ISO, make your case. I have been asking for this since Day 1. Yes, sorry, I'm going to make it difficult for you to eliminate me. But don't shy away.

The only person I actually believe thinks I am scum right now is STD. There is much evidence he is town but I'm not seeing it especially from JV frankly.

I am a bit confused, but are you town reading StD or not?

Pre Edit: I didn't read that whole wall of text, but I definitely want Ranger today as well

Sorry. I think STD is town and thus I feel his read is genuine. It's not a correct read, but if we were all capable of having correct reads there would be no game. I'm not trying to belittle STD, I feel like out of the people who are explicitly scumreading me, he's the one player who has demonstrated to me the most that he believes the read.

Scum can't really believe their fake reads since they know the truth.

[T-Bone]

Gob, Naerys, Ranger, Black, Dave all townie.
Drew and STD are fine
T-Bone I wanna look into more
HEM, Enchant are baddies

That's where I'm at right now. I dont think both HEM and Enchant are partners if enchant flips red.
Ranger's actions are weird but they're weird weird so I don't think it means anything.
I like Drews progressions, them jumping to Ranger doesn't make a whole lot of sense especially if Enchant is red
STD I like mainly cuz he's seeing me for me, which isn't something I should town-read but I'm going to anyway
Everyone else I believe I explained except T-Bone who just fell off to me, if Enchant is green I'm going to put more eyes on T-Bone for not doing anything when two town wagons were in the heat the entire day.

VOTE: T-Bone

For prosperity

Just realised T-bone probably tried pocketing Ranger as of yesterday

I simply don't want to waste my breath any longer. Everything I've said has come and bit me in the ass, taken out of context or just ignored and I'm not interested in that. Most notably Drew labelling my TR on gob as pocketing, them just throwing what i said about Enchant as "this is scummy owo", you taking my words out of context yesterday multiple times and just now in that last post you saying I can't SR you because I must have had some ulterior motive to doing so like what, also in regards to you saying my surrender is scummy and you'll ignore (which is very much not ignoring as you literally said it, and from what i see you have no real plans on considering other people considering the wording in both those posts). T-Bone just pretending my read on them is unsubstantiated and based in nothing. Ranger consumed by confirmation bias enough that they've expanded upon "this would be super cool if I was right, here's twenty posts talking about it" which is just going to cement her feelings further that she was indeed right until directly proven that she isn't which would be my death. I just have very little confidence that my words will ever be heard, and that's okay I am not complaining about it as it just happens when you're scum-read to this degree but don't tell me that I should be doing something when your collective actions (not your push) is the thing dissuading me from doing so.

That being said, I don't think a single person excluding STD, wants anybody except for me for an elimination while anyone else is just a secondary choice for them. Which is crazy to think that nobody is looking at that except me but maybe that's cuz I know I'm Town, or you're all consumed by the read you just consider that wolves would just bus which is also fair I guess.

JV, these are every post that you have made which indicates you have any suspicion of me. 4 out of 342 and three of them came today. None of them contain a reason. You mentioned ONCE yesterday that you needed to look into me more. We're still waiting. Your posts about me today are a vote, saying that I'm pocketing Ranger, and complaining that me saying your read unsubstantiated is a lie.

I'm not "pretending" your read on me is unsubstantiated. I'm bringing the receipts. By contrast you've called me town the first 18 times you mentioned me in your ISO.

Please respond to just this following question.

Where is the substance that I missed?

(I did not look for misspellings of my name so it's possible there is more but I doubt it)

[T-Bone]

Sorry I guess I forgot to quote #1920 from 10 minutes ago. But to be fair and balanced, I already said JV's read was fake and based on nothing before that post and I was specifically responding to the charge in #1911 anyway.

[T-Bone]

Intent to put Jackson at e-1 if not hammer.

[T-Bone]

lol what an unfortunate page top.

[T-Bone]

Since I am explicitly comparing JV to STD, STD has been a lot more critical of me during this game. Granted, JV explicitly townread me on Day 1 so that's not a completely fair comparison, JV shouldn't have been critical of me on Day 1 if I was a townread. But I want to make that distinction because I am saying I think STD believes his read, because there is at least something behind STD's actions that I believe.

[T-Bone]

JV, these are every post that you have made which indicates you have any suspicion of me. 4 out of 342 and three of them came today. None of them contain a reason. You mentioned ONCE yesterday that you needed to look into me more. We're still waiting. Your posts about me today are a vote, saying that I'm pocketing Ranger, and complaining that me saying your read unsubstantiated is a lie.

I'm not "pretending" your read on me is unsubstantiated. I'm bringing the receipts. By contrast you've called me town the first 18 times you mentioned me in your ISO.

Please respond to just this following question.

Where is the substance that I missed?

(I did not look for misspellings of my name so it's possible there is more but I doubt it)

Ah yes, none of those quotes contain a reason at all fr fr

You're saying that my previous reads and my post count has anything to do with my read now. I'm allowed to be wrong, and I'm allowed to not have static reads. You're contrasting things that makes zero sense to contrast.

This is a misrepresentation of what I said. You said your scum-read on me has substance. What is the substance?

[T-Bone]

JV shouldn't have been critical of me on Day 1 if I was a townread.

Can you elaborate on this

After you elaborate on the substance of your scum read please. I asked first.

[T-Bone]

I'm not trying to insult you I'm literally asking you to elaborate because I base my reads a lot on how I think others are trying to game solve or not game solve. This isn't a gotchu moment here. But if you haven't provided anything in this thread that I can see then I don't know why you would expect me to believe there is substance behind this shift in your read of me. I saw plenty of evidence of why you thought I was town. So you're not incapable of showing me or anyone else, why you think the way you think. I'm sorry you're demotivated, I'm not trying to do that, I'm trying to figure out if you're scum or not.

But I don't think it is a misrepresentation to say that JacksonVirgo has so far been unable to provide any reason as to why they think I'm scum. If someone other than JV disagrees me with me, please point it out. Because I went looking before I made my first statement to that, and then I went looking for receipts. But if there's something I'm not seeing I would like someone to correct me.

[T-Bone]

JV shouldn't have been critical of me on Day 1 if I was a townread.

Can you elaborate on this

To answer this I alluded to it above, but you demonstrated why you thought I was town day 1, and that's something I expected to find. Comparing your Day 1 to STD is not the same because STD was calling me scum on Day 1 and you weren't. So I wanted to make it clear to others that I wasn't saying you had a town read on me on Day 1 and now you don't and only scum can do that. That's ridiculous, people can and do change reads.

[T-Bone]

I think one thing I've done poorly is my choice of language. If JV is town, I don't mean to insinuate I know what JV is thinking better than they do. I'm really trying to draw the distinction that regardless of what JV truly thinks or feels, when it comes to their scum read of me I don't see any evidence of where it comes from. Maybe it's true that JV has been thinking about this read for a long time and just never chose to post about it until now. But I can only analyze what they've actually posted in thread.

[T-Bone]

Yet you’re not seemingly looking at what I’m saying, in this thread

Take your time with eating and such.

Look to back to what both talked about on day 1 about not feeling confident about the game and sometimes having to act more confident than maybe we are. That was a real moment of understanding between us (and I don't care if you're scum it holds true).

With that in mind, show me what I'm not looking at.

[T-Bone]

In the interim what would you consider “evidence”

Just something in your posts that showed a shift in your thinking. Your shift looks, to me, survivalistic rather than something you were considering before you needed to. Today on Day 3 scum!JV needs something, and T-Bone being aggressively wrong on Enchant is something for sure. It appears to me that HEM makes gob's final case on me and that was good enough and now we are here, arguing about what substance you really had behind that vote.

I know I ranted about "ISO me and make a case" earlier but that's not actually the standard I care about. That was more just...trying to get a reaction out of you (and Black) that I could work with maybe. I keep comparing you to STD and you'll find no such post in STD's ISO.

[T-Bone]

How confident do you think I am about you wolf?

Honestly, in a world where you are town, I don't think you're that confident, I think you're emboldened because I am incorrectly calling you scum and challenging you on a read that you've been thinking about for awhile. I think if you were more confident we wouldn't suddenly be having this conversation and I wouldn't have been able to find nothing in your ISO so easily that confirms my own suspicions.

[T-Bone]

The natural question is of course what is my confidence level? I'd say about half way because I do see the flip side I just hypothesized in 1954.

[T-Bone]

I'm not confident that you're wolf, but I'm seeing you as the most likely to be a wolf but as you said you agreed with me on I have to be confident or my words don't get listened to as much, and considering my stance you need that confidence or my voice gets thrown to the aether even more than it already will. Since the start of the game I pushed myself down a path and got hilariously booted up the ass with every new piece of information. My python town-read was my stronger read, it was wrong and the aftermath of that is still affecting me, the black push that got flipped completely head over tail, the HEM push who ended up masonry, etc. Just constantly having to shift my reads to the complete other side which is hilarious and I love it but it does have the consequence of throwing my confidence down the garbage disposal unit, which is impressive cuz we don't have garbage disposal units in Australia but not only my confidence but given my stronger SR just now turned out to be masonry, it's tough to bounce back and form a steady and reliable analysis of the game when every time you have to rebase yourself the rug gets pulled under you almost immediately. This isn't me trying to justify myself or complain, just explaining my pov.

I saw how you were interacting with the wagons and I thought it was suspect in the off chance I was wrong on Enchant, of which ultimately I was. I said the start of my analysis of you in that readtier post you quoted from me. It happened so I'm leaning in that world now and without cross-checking my memory with your ISO I also recalled in the moment your interaction around Ranger and how people weren't understanding their words unlike yourself. I felt that considering you were >rand mafia this felt off looking back on it. It felt overly fake and contrived and meant to make a point OR to try and make ranger think you understand them unlike others. I followed through with more "detailed" explanation of my analysis on how you interacted with the Enchant/JV wagons which you acknowledged existed but then pretended like I never did that?

I'm not going to argue with most of this, this helps, thanks.

The last point though, I am pretty sure the post in which I call your read unsubstantial happened before you made that point about the Enchant wagon. Given that I made the assertion in my 1906, and then in my 1923 I was reacting to your 1911, and while that was happening you made 1920 explaining your stance. So it was true when I first made the assertion and it's a wash when I posted 1923 because I was reacting to an older post and you then explained yourself a little bit while I was getting the quotes I was looking for from your ISO. That's a playstyle thing that maybe you didn't realize. When I quoted 1911, that was my immediate reaction, I hadn't read posts 1912 to 1922 until after I finished my reply to it. I thought this was an obvious thing I was doing and i took for granted that maybe it wasn't. I also have not read anything after this post yet either btw.

[T-Bone]

I value being understood or treated in a way where I feel people put the appropriate level of effort to try and understand me, if that wasn't clear

I really am trying! This is a hint if you ever encounter me as scum in a future game but scum!bone cares a lot less about seeing the town perspective of people, because that dude has mislims to coordinate.

[T-Bone]

PAGETOP BABY HAHAHA

[T-Bone]

I try really hard (though I'm not always successful) to not proscribe what I think players should be doing. I try to analyze what i think players are and aren't doing. I probably send mixed messages when I constantly tell people to scum read me, but that's me wanting content to engage on.

[T-Bone]

I am a self-centered mafia player and just do better when I'm the center of attention. I'm the AniX of mafia if AniX played mafia (more)

[T-Bone]

Some of you will appreciate that

[T-Bone]

This is a weird point of contention but I will concede you made one post at the end of yesterday and that's technically something. But you think that's a fair representation of the totality of your argument? If you intended to communicate more, if you intended to expand more, and just didn't that's fine. But I don't know why you think it's so unfair of me to look at one post where you said "I need to look into t-bone more" and not see it as a substantial contribution to the shift in your read. What is there for me to glean exactly between that post and when you cast your vote for me? Not after, not after I said you had nothing, not last night when you added more detail. Between the time you said you needed to look into me further and the time you apparently finished looking into me and cast a vote. What happened that I should have seen?

[T-Bone]

Let's get to the core of the issue. Look at these posts. This is every post you made between the first time you mentioned wanting to look into me because I fell off to you...and when you voted me. Because when I said you I didn't see any substance to your read this is what I was looking at.

What am I missing?

Spoiler: The posts

Gob, Naerys, Ranger, Black, Dave all townie.
Drew and STD are fine
T-Bone I wanna look into more
HEM, Enchant are baddies

That's where I'm at right now. I dont think both HEM and Enchant are partners if enchant flips red.
Ranger's actions are weird but they're weird weird so I don't think it means anything.
I like Drews progressions, them jumping to Ranger doesn't make a whole lot of sense especially if Enchant is red
STD I like mainly cuz he's seeing me for me, which isn't something I should town-read but I'm going to anyway
Everyone else I believe I explained except T-Bone who just fell off to me, if Enchant is green I'm going to put more eyes on T-Bone for not doing anything when two town wagons were in the heat the entire day.

Oh no, whatever am I going to do

Okay you can post anime gifs, they were better.

me irl

I mean it's already too late, I hammered

I would have preferred HEM, Enchant was fine and it's exponentially better than me dead

0% chance of flipping wolf if I go
>1% chance of flipping wolf on anybody else.

Don't call me conceited

And that's ignoring anything to do with the games content

I mean tbf Drew, they explained it as consolidating more so than voting cuz they thought I would flip wolf. You should argue that part instead of the contradiction between the reads and the vote

Unless you don't believe that

But now just could have just been a pocket attempt

Am I not allowed to just town-read someone strongly?

Get his thoughts and then hammer me, I'm done with this game. This isn't a scum-claim.

I don't remember you saying that

I believe the mafia being mistakenly thought by me to be masons explains a lot of their control over D1. That gave them four votes together, in effect. I'll own up to the mistake and the consequences of it, yet if the result of my mistake is the entire scumteam spewed, I'll take the silver lining.

zzz, yeah throw the blame of what you did purely onto me rn. So wise

I think I have an hour to deep dive while dinner is being cooked (1.5 hours from now after travel and shopping), and a couple more hours after dinner.

I didn't clock that post, I just saw they were hammer range and went brr

Get his thoughts and then hammer me, I'm done with this game. This isn't a scum-claim.

Why are you not feeling this game?

It's less me not feeling this game and more if I'm going out nmw like it seems every single person wants me out, no use delaying that unnecessarily. The feeling of pending doom is unnerving

VOTE: T-Bone

For prosperity

[T-Bone]

I'm not discounting anything you said after we started this argument but that's unfair to complain to me for not taking into consideration posts you hadn't made yet.

[T-Bone]

VC 1.21

Votecount 1.21

usesPython (7):

gob, Naerys, Dannflor, humaneatingmonkey, Black, Save The Dragons, davesaz

[HAMMER]

Black (2):

usesPython,

Ranger

Dannflor (2):

Doctor Drew, light_ganski

davesaz (1):

T-Bone

light_ganski (1):

JacksonVirgo

With 13 players alive, it took 7 votes to secure an elimination.

Mod notes:

• Fun fact: Alianna did more VCs than me this day phase which means she won and I lost
  
• Fun fact 2: I've recently modded a game where the flavor was (fake) facts and now I'm addicted to posting random facts as this VC plainly showcases.
  
• Actually important note:
  you all should PM me and Alianna a fast night request and then I could probably process the night phase before midnight in American time (specifically the time zone that's one hour later than EST). Wouldn't that be cool?
  
• Combined mod ISO

VC 2.09

Votecount 2.09

Enchant (6):

T-Bone

, Save The Dragons, Naerys, Black,

Ranger

, JacksonVirgo

[HAMMER]

JacksonVirgo (1):

humaneatingmonkey

Naerys (1):

Enchant

Ranger (1):

Doctor Drew

Not Voting (2):

davesaz, gob

With 11 players alive, it took 6 votes to secure an elimination.

Mod notes:

• Combined mod ISO

Three people voted Enchant and didn't vote python: T-Bone, Ranger, and JV.

Of these three, I tr JV. I think JV has been hunting and going after who they think is scum.

As far as Ranger goes, I find it incredulous that they actually believe 1467. It is a wild post. Is it possible that I'm just not seeing it and they actually believe everything they spout in that post? yeah. But I can't sit here in good faith and be like "this isn't fishy" to me, no matter how many times people are like "oh that's just Ranger"

As far as T-Bone goes, this is more of a vibe read based on his body of work this game. T-Bone seems to be in the background, manipulating things with a stead hand instead of going out there and making pushes, he looks like he's trying to avoid attention and he's just popping in whenever it's convenient to do so to say something pithy rather than push for a read he believes in or move the gamestate forward.

I'm mobile so sorry for the successive posting. I'd put my reads as

The Dann tier (Light, Dave, Drew)
The Bone tier (JV, Black, Gob/Naerys)
The should be scum tier but probably isn't (STD, maybe also Naerys)
Everyone else (Ranger, HEM)

For instance, what is this readslist? It doesn't do anything or explain where his head is truly at.

would you settle for enchant

but would you?

What's the point of this

Well, I'm never thrilled to be gaslit in front of my fucking face. But I can cope.

Oh finally real emotion instead of these closed off responses you have been giving lol.

I have been saying quite a bit here I think you are trying for a push on gob.

I have been in the minority saying that gob isn't obvtown, and think he is scummy.

But your push here, and yes it is a push, makes me question what your intentions are here.

Like it seems you saw there was support for a gob lim in that python post, and latched onto it.

This is actually weird. Should we not look at what Python was doing for associations?

this is weird too because does he actually do this or is he just popping in to defend someone to look townie and pocket

I'd love to analyze this a bit. Very interesting.

First you quote that reads list there. But I clarified what it meant in a later post...but don't let that bother your analysis I guess.

Your second quote of mine when I asked if you would settle on Enchant I was taunting you because I thought it was a ridiculous thing for you to ask someone given your positioning. You're only bothered by this now like a week later?

Finally I Drew what I felt was a legitimate question given the way Drew asked it. Did you agree with Drew and disagree with me? What does you quoting this post and saying "this is weird too" really mean?

[T-Bone]

I do appreciate you putting some leg work in to explain yourself though! While your thesis on my voting pattern makes sense you picked some nonsense things to take issue with when direct quoting me.

Predit: I'm not telling you that you suck STD please don't read into that.

[T-Bone]

I'm not complaining about being pushed, I completely understand it but expanding on my reasoning from yesterday. Enchant and I were both Town getting pushed to a pretty substantial degree and T-Bone just did not put pressure anywhere unlike his presence in the early game.

I can push you more if that will make you feel better. This rings like a hollow complaint because I stopped pushing your slot based on how you were approaching things upon entry. You're not that same player now if that's the standard you want to set.

(I mean I'm the same but this is your argument)

I don't like how this feels like a threat. "I'll push you more if it makes you feel better" ...if you think he's scum you should push him. You shouldn't want to push him just so he'll townread you

It was absolutely a challenge, I would hope you don't like it. I also challenged you on your read but my challenge to JV took over last night.

[T-Bone]

I'm going to go ahead and get out in front of this...but if you think I am scum then push me. Whether that's STD, Black, JV, or someone else. And I don't mean cast side eye about me possibly being scum. That's really boring. I mean do something about it, and do something about it today. Go through my ISO, make your case. I have been asking for this since Day 1. Yes, sorry, I'm going to make it difficult for you to eliminate me. But don't shy away.

I think you're scum and I'll push you if and when I feel like it, thanks

Thinks I'm scum and won't push me lmao

VOTE: Black

Kk ezclap

[T-Bone]

It feels like T-Bone is trying to pocket StD

Black, you have posted this in Open 902. Not Mini Theme 154890

[T-Bone]

im not arguing "the scum team is exactly ranger and tbone"

im arguing "i think there's at least 1 scum in {ranger, tbone} here is why individually i think they are scum"

You said a fair amount about T-Bone's early-ish play. Any thoughts on how he approached the last few pages with JV?

i don't really see anything here that piques me one way or another. maybe i'm just being silly but the argument just looks like "look at how reasonable i'm being, look at me having thoughts" when for most of the game T-Bone was like "here's a zinger, okay time to disappear for a day"

At risk of pocketing STD this is the truest thing he's ever said lol

[T-Bone]

I mean I try to post multiple times a day but I am pro a good zinger

[T-Bone]

First you quote that reads list there. But I clarified what it meant in a later post...but don't let that bother your analysis I guess.

i don't think just because you were asked to explain a garbage readslist and you succeeded at that should give you points when you tried putting this out there in the first place but okay

Your second quote of mine when I asked if you would settle on Enchant I was taunting you because I thought it was a ridiculous thing for you to ask someone given your positioning. You're only bothered by this now like a week later?

my point is you have lots of posts that seemingly have no point, these posts aren't driving the game forward or showing you have reads or anything like that, you're just posting to taunt or fluff or try to expose masons or whatever the hell you were doing yesterday.

Finally I Drew what I felt was a legitimate question given the way Drew asked it. Did you agree with Drew and disagree with me? What does you quoting this post and saying "this is weird too" really mean?

my point is again you're not actually doing anything to drive the game forward, you're just sitting here taking potshots.

I don't think there's anything productive to respond to the first two quotes so you can have the win.

But I'd like to know what about the premise and the question I posed to Drew, in which I thought he was saying to ignore Python, that you disagree with?

[T-Bone]

im not anti-zinger btw but it's just a lot of your content

Keeps the game fun for me. I'd hate the game if I just posted serious content all the time.

With that said I feel like I've given you a lot of grace on this read (to pocket you I guess) and I feel like I am asking some reasonable game advancing questions and you're choosing to respond to them with "but t-bone just posts zingers" so what exactly are you advocating for here?

(besides my elimination, which, ya know, go off my lord)

[T-Bone]

Let me back up. My goal is just to try and understand you STD. I don't care if you change your read or not. Sincerely eliminate me if you think I'm scum, it's whatever.

But I can't work with "t-bone does fluff" because that's just not true and not worth debating anymore. If all your read is based on that and vibes just say so instead of quoting me asking another player a question and going "see? T-bone is scum!". You don't need to make busy work to confirm your read to yourself.

[T-Bone]

Anyway I am doubting JV as scum again so GG JV you've snowed me.

[T-Bone]

I dunno dude I think I'm masons with Naerys now

[T-Bone]

my argument is not tbone does fluff
it is more that tbone has done a lot of fluff in an attempt to look busy without driving the game forward.
it is a vibe read when i look at your iso, i feel like you're lurking in the shadows and just kind of there

in regards to your question to drew, let me ask you this:

if you disagree with drew stating to "ignore python," where is any post where you personally take python into consideration?

Honestly I'm not sure. I was focused on Dann's interactions and reads yesterday and nodding along to Ranger's analysis of Python (which is what Drew was taking issue with). But I am guilty of not doing my own independent analysis. I'm just trusting Ranger's because I townread her. Maybe blindly, good call out.

[T-Bone]

i think it's because i strongly believed JV was scum, and so the "never voting Naerys" is a scum signal for me because it seemed like an easy pocket to just townread Naerys. but std has done it, and now t-bone has done it, so maybe it isn't as reliable as i want it to be.

maybe a scrutiny of why people that townread naerys would townread naerys, and an assessment of how believable their townread would be?

To be clear my mason quip was because we had a parallel situation where STD was yelling about me for taking potshots and Dave was yelling about Naerys taking potshots and I thought that was funny.

Naerys remains in a secondary could be scum tier for me.

[T-Bone]

VOTE: Naerys

[T-Bone]

Being on a wagon with Naerys and Drew against the Naerys feels right

[T-Bone]

Didn't I just say I find it likely you are both scum?

Yes, and I don't believe you

or

I feel like the reasoning towards you voting Naerys here over myself is clouded through the read on me. I don't believe you can realistically make the argument you did without assuming that it's because of some form of interaction with me, which you said multiple times yet keep ignoring. Referring to these quotes in particular

Spoiler: Quote List

Especially when Jackson was at E-1, you take your vote off of him because Bone votes you?

Feels like she felt safe by self voting to save you.

I mean, I don't think she was expecting more votes on her

Counterpoint, scum didn't want to buss and realized you were at E-1 after the VC

Wow I feel attacked

[T-Bone]

Making lunch will get back to you, answer that one tho in the meantime please

Also question for you when you get back, since you are now voting me.

If you are town and were about to be a mislim, what scum motivation would I have to vote Nae here?

I already said why, I think you're trying to set up two mislims. I honestly feel I'm inevitably going to be eliminated, it feels like it has to happen and I'm sure many people agree with me on this (I don't like it but who would?). Naerys is typically a linked read with me, taking into consideration your words around our slots and then Ranger being conf-bias tunnelled as well. If I go out first, it will be harder (not saying impossible) to set up the Naerys elimination after but if Naerys goes first, you can always jump back on my isolated actions such as my hard defence of Python etc. It feels like it's massively scum motivated and doesn't read to me as a genuine though process, it reeks of agenda and I don't like it

The only agenda I have is limming scum, you can disagree with my viewpoints here, but as I have been saying I don't think you are very towny as well.

As scum I just want the mislim, then go from there. Keep it simple and day by day......especially if i would be so close to victory.

I do want to hear from Bone some more here though

About? If you've asked me something recently then I have missed it.

[T-Bone]

the tbone wagon never happened

Disappointing tbh

[T-Bone]

If Dave didn't hammer I would have (or probably Drew would have) so I'm not sure what the argument you're making. Someone was going to hammer.

[T-Bone]

If Dave didn't hammer I would have (or probably Drew would have) so I'm not sure what the argument you're making. Someone was going to hammer.

my problem with dave is much larger than that hammer,
i probably shouldnt be asking that question (someone has to tho, even if its hypocritical) - What is he doing? I am not feeling that scum hunting drive i felt from his town!self

I mean I agree he could be scum I just thought the hammer was a weird thing to pick at when I think anyone of any alignment would have done it.

[T-Bone]

I will end the day on the JV slot if that's where HEM still wants us to end up at. Today is the last day we get confirmed town reads.

[T-Bone]

Wish you wouldn't

[T-Bone]

Self vote

[T-Bone]

After everything I think T-Bone can be scum with today's performance focused less on a mission I can believe he believes and more on adventures that I feel he goes on just for the hell of it. That doesn't jive well with what I think the spirit of town is, which is the spirit of someone who has a confbiased idea of the game and goes for it.

I don't know if that makes sense but that's what my gut is telling me.

What? I'm not confbiased so I'm scum? Did you even read this sentence before you hit submit?

[T-Bone]

Truly I don't know what any of that quote means. I'm assuming the first part is a fancy way of saying gut. YIKES CITY

I'd rather you push me on your way out instead of this nonsense today where you sat on your hands waiting for a JV flip.

[T-Bone]

Playing the game. Instead of using vaguely worded statements describe exactly what you mean.

[T-Bone]

No, you first. You got to sit on being confirmed town today, how about you stand up and do something for a change of pace.

[T-Bone]

the way i articulated my feelings about you is pretty much exactly how i feel about you

Gut is fine! Even fair! I take issue with dressing it up with vague statements!

[T-Bone]

I might regret saying this but I am starting to think T-Bone is town

I regret this too lmao

[T-Bone]

If your goal is to not eat the night kill then I think it is working.

If your goal is to leave the town with something substantial to work with, you're failing. You've coasted off of gob's final reads and the idea that JV can't reach LimLo. I'm looking for some game advancing content from you and honestly I should have picked on your sooner and that's on me. I'm town, leave me with something to work with. Or if you don't believe I'm town, leave them with something to work with. Either say something more substantial about me, or if you can't, about anyone else at all!

[T-Bone]

I know I just went over this when arguing with JV. I don't care if you or anyone calls me scum, I truly don't. I'm still going to pick at it when it's not good enough. Take this as me confirming your suspicions if you want...but rise to challenge for the rest of the town. Don't change your read on me, I don't care. But if they flip me tomorrow based off of your say so and this is all you can muster? Then we both failed.

[T-Bone]

okay. how would you describe what you did today in the game as a player, t-bone?

I was going to answer this with snark but...

T-Bone, what I'm doing right now is engaging with you and trying to see what I feel about your slot and if I believe you. Because I scumread you. If you're truly sincere about wanting me to leave more, then humor me.

Thank you. I'll do some honest self-reflection.

[T-Bone]

My self reflection is this, I'm town and am playing a pro-town game. I think my game, in general, is different from a lot of other players when they are town because my goal isn't to look town.

I'm going to go a little further than what you asked to express my feelings.

On Day 1 I thought I did a decent job. Not the best I could have done, I put Python in a bucket of being annoying but probably town, which was a huge miss for me. I didn't argue with enough players. Which I know, that seems like a good thing, but that's how I get a better feel for people's alignment. I also don't mean argue like a negative thing, more like, what we are doing now.

On Day 2 I certainly felt like I coasted, looking back I don't know what I accomplished for myself or the game. Unlike Day 1, I can't remember a single conversation I had on Day 2 that informed my perspective of the game. So huge miss by me. I think after missing on Python I was too willing to just accept Dann's reads rather than continue to form my own. I had light_ganski as strong town on Day 1, and nothing Enchant said or did should have changed that. If we're all being honest, this should be the most damning aspect of my play.

Today I think I've vastly improved over the first two days. It hasn't been perfect, my argument with JV to start the day went on for too many pages. A smaller argument would have had value, but it got too large and I know that will cause people to scroll rather than read. If scum!JV helped me do that on purpose, great job, smart move picking at my weakness. I think I did a much better job today than I had on the previous two days of challenging players to explain themselves more. I felt like I let STD slide too long and I was finally able to get him to explain himself more on his read of me. Even though the argument went on too long, I think I've coaxed enough content out of JV that if they flip scum, we have better associations to work with then we did at the start of the day where JV was trying to get the day to end quick with their elimination. If JV is scum, that tells me the remaining partner is a little deeper. If JV flips town, then we have more honest takes from them to look back at. I think given the game state this is a big for us and one I think I get credit for. I think I coaxed a little bit more out of Naerys then she was willing to give. I'm still a huge question mark on Black, I'm still unsure what she has contributed, but I did try. I think where I'm lacking is not challenging you earlier in the day to leave us with more substance. Regardless of whether we are right or wrong in flipping JV you still have a confirmed town perspective that is worth listening to. We should have taken more advantage of that today, I knew it, and I let it slide. I think in a world where I was scum, this is also pretty damning of me and I need to be better as town. I also got too caught up in JV, Black, and Naerys, and if none of them are scum I have given space to scum in STD, Drew, Dave, and Ranger.

First and foremost I think I have represented myself well as town and trying to advance the game, get reads that I am comfortable with, and make some slots produce content they weren't producing. But I've also failed in some key places that I have to be better at.

Hope that helps.

[T-Bone]

If you need me to expand upon something please ask, I tried to be clear but I never know how it comes across on paper.

[T-Bone]

I'm going to undermine myself by saying I am every bit as good as scum to fake all that and everything I've done this game. I know I get questioned on why I point out how good my scum game is, but it is about honesty and I need the people who are actually town to make honest and good reads when they look at this game. Even if it means they conclude I'm scum.

[T-Bone]

am just pointing out how you say you did a decent job and then did not post any evidence that supports this, if you want to convince me you were present day 1 doing pro-town things, i would probably need examples

I don't want to convince you of anything. HEM asked for me to describe my game today, and so I did. I referenced the first 2 days to show what I was thinking when reflecting on today.

[T-Bone]

T-Bone, what's your favorite scumhunting method?

I don't know what you're asking. Broadly my method of playing is poking at players until I see something I don't like. I've been playing mafia for a long time (as have many here) and so there are things I don't like that I naturally gravitate to, such as people making assertions they haven't backed up with their play, but there's no one thing I am looking for. I would describe it as shaking a tree and seeing what falls out.

Also, why do you think I'm leaving without much substance? What are you looking for from me?

You started this day revealing your mason status and posting the final reads of Dann and Gob. Which is quality content, and you even showed where you agreed and disagreed with them. You stated your desire to flip JV and that was it for most of this phase. I have a vague idea of what your reads are, but I wish I knew them more, because as I said, we know your reads are real (whether they are right or wrong). We also know that when you ask someone a question, when you put pressure on someone, it is something the rest of us can trust is real. It's something your slot has over anyone else I town read.

But to go back to this, you come in, drop the opinions of the masonry and then promise a final write up. And then we don't hear from you for three days. Not literally, you of course make posts, but you just reiterate your preference for JV and then once say you'll compromise on me. I acknowledged in a previous post that when I noticed this I should have pushed at you to give more and I didn't.

So from my perspective your last will and testament is that post where you say a bunch of vague nonsense to call me scum. And that's where we are at. Call it discrediting if you want. I told you what I wanted already and responded to you like I did because in my opinion you did not deliver anything of substance here.

[T-Bone]

I'm going to bed.

Number one.

I still want JV's slot to flip. What I wanted to see was JV trying to case someone as an alternative for their elimination - someone they strongly scumread - and be invested in trying to get this done by going back to the game and retroactively explaining why this alternative was the scum partner for Python and how this scumread has been the scum all along.

A high bar, and maybe not entirely fair to expect JV to act this way, but it was what I was looking for that I told myself I'll get off JV for. Otherwise; the AtE, self-vote, and scumreads based on recency biases instead of a more holistic, retroactive read of a new scumread isn't just doing it for me. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and I'll gladly take a yelling in the dead thread.

Number two.

As for T-Bone, their initial reaction to me was interesting in that he automatically went for discrediting my feelings as "vague descriptions for gut" and invalidating it as "no substance". But I don't agree - in fact, I've put out a lot of substance out there? Everyone immediately understands what I feel about the game, what my teammates are feeling about the game, what the game-defining moments are for me, and what I think about those game-defining moments. So, is there substance that he's looking for that I'm not putting out? idk.

Their description of their play reveals that they had been self-aware that their play was lacking for day 1 and day 2. But also missing in day 3 is an element of scumhunting. Their description of their game is too focused in the value of moving game forward, but moving the game forward for me is about deciding who to vote for - someone who you think is scum. That's entirely absent even in their description of what they're doing. There is a lack of clear idea of who they think is scum (as pointed out in StD as well) and what they're doing to get those scum out. That's not scumhunting for me, and if someone isn't scumhunting then they're not getting my townread.

If these ideas seem half-baked, maybe it is. But these are my strongest impressions. If it resonates, then it resonates. If it doesn't, then don't worry about it. There's no time for me to investigate or prod or reaction test because I'm going to bed, but this is where I'm leaving the game with. Hope people carry the torch moving forward. It will be pretty interesting what will happen in Day 4.

See y'all post game.

Final word since you went to bed.

I wish there were more thoughts on players besides JV and I and therein lies my frustration. I don't know what JV will flip. But I'm going to flip town and if JV does too today then that's a big ol wasted last post on nothing.

[T-Bone]

I won't be around in 6 hours, so I will bring this to e-1

VOTE: JacksonVirgo

[T-Bone]

Cowards should have shot me

[T-Bone]

The funny thing about 2294 is that Naerys lists Drew in the scum list and Drew just agrees.

Yup, because Ranger was in the list as well

That's comedy though!

[T-Bone]

T-Bone did you ever explain your dave scumlean from 753?

I did end the day voting him but whatever I was suspicious of I let drop out of my mind. I think for me Dave has existed always on the edge of the scum pool but not quite in it. I am reevaluating him.

[T-Bone]

I'd rather be mislimmed today if we're going to do it, I'm not allowing it tomorrow without great pain to all involved.

Don't @me about making threats, I am stating my preference here.