Open 904: DE Runs a Marathon Setup in the Open Queue [Completed]

[Dannflor]

oh right

VOTE: dannflor

dann, you know how to make this vote go away

something something linguistic tell

[Dannflor]

first instinct is that that interaction was too hamfisted for black and python to be partnered

[Dannflor]

ok im gonna go to a superbowl party now where a taylor swift fan will explain to me the rules of football

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hellbooks

Im gonna do the unpopular thing and suspect hellbooks

[Dannflor]

I have this extremely narcissistic idea that if tris was scum she would have come out the game voting me

But i am dubious that this is a genuine thought

I feel like hellbooks might think this is a cool self-deprecating thing to say as scum. but would she actually think it about tris as town???

much to think about indeed

[Dannflor]

you’ll have to vote me D2 fire if you want me as assassin

[Dannflor]

it’s so unserious

[Dannflor]

i want to town read jupiter for that

[Dannflor]

fireisredsir could you kindly produce 150-200 posts really quick

no reason

[Dannflor]

I smiled at the thought of it

[Dannflor]

take it to the scum pt you two

[Dannflor]

black is there a reason you didn't comment on me having the exact opposite reaction to hellbooks as you

[Dannflor]

hellbooks a really funny shitpost would be if you ironically hid the names of your scum buddies in a post somewhere wouldn't that be so funny to point at postgame haha

[Dannflor]

but consider this: jupiter is scared of me

[Dannflor]

do you have any conclusions based on that interaction yet? im not sure whether you think the weird interaction points towards scum points for python, or black, or all of the above, or none of the above

[Dannflor]

but consider this: jupiter is scared of me

dann i'm always scared of you, what's special

i just thought you'd be less likely to do that whole "dann is scum" then reflective step back thing as scum, like maybe you'd wanna avoid scrutiny from me

maybe not

it's an extremely narcissistic idea

[Dannflor]

why are we privy to this secret now??

[Dannflor]

i wonder if jupiter knows i always town read people who scum read me

[Dannflor]

it's not actually 100% true but i think it is generally true that i tend to town read scum that are tunnelling me and it is a bad habit where even when i am very towny (i am not saying i am very towny this game yet) im always like oh yeah that makes sense they would be scum reading me they must be town

[Dannflor]

cannot believe fire would ask someone for their reads in a mafia game

[Dannflor]

it's not actually 100% true but i think it is generally true that i tend to town read scum that are tunnelling me and it is a bad habit where even when i am very towny (i am not saying i am very towny this game yet) im always like oh yeah that makes sense they would be scum reading me they must be town

this sounds like word for word something i would write

i did think while i was writing this that it sounded like a post fire would make that i would probably scum read

[Dannflor]

it's ok i believe you are very towny sometimes

[Dannflor]

im not sure i would imply that im ever very towny actually i don't tend to believe that

100-150 more posts to go until

im very towny

here!!

VOTE: fire

inconsistent much ???

[Dannflor]

jupiter why are you town reading black

[Dannflor]

i think it's a certain personality type

[Dannflor]

jupiter why are you town reading black

idk either actually, I think mostly based off her push on me????

what about the push strikes you as towny?

[Dannflor]

tell me more about this constant shade

[Dannflor]

VOTE: hellbooks

[Dannflor]

we could probably just kill jacksonvirgo and have a greater than rand chance of hitting scum tbh

[Dannflor]

black is factually correct about jupiter making similar posts as scum

I am not certain that I agree jupiter is scum for it or not

I think the last sequence from black leans towny though? something about the inconsistency in pushing jupiter coupled with the shade on hellbooks feels a bit all over the place in a towny way

not a strong read tho insert more qualifiers here

[Dannflor]

feeling that the things being scumread are just personality traits rather than signs of being scum

yeah i guess i didn't say this explicitly but this is the world im entertaining right now

i think if jupiter is scum it'll be more obvious over a longer period of time

[Dannflor]

ok so the truth of the matter is that your scumread reminded me of a single person who scumread me and turned out to be scum

who

[Dannflor]

I don't particularly want to shut down black mostly I don't think putting pressure on jupiter to explain themself is a bad thing

There's also an element of me thinking the same thing about jupiter having easy to scum read traits last game, but he was scum, so I'm trying to make sure that I actually have reasons to town read them

I still think the push on me is net towny but that's about it so far

[Dannflor]

ugh usesPython gives me lowkey rancid scum vibes but i cant explain what it is like there is no Reason To Scumread Them

vaguely town read this, idk if i should be

[Dannflor]

oh jupiter has 100 posts

[Dannflor]

oh jupiter has 100 posts

What are you making of that?

i think jupiter is town

unrelated the # of posts they have made

[Dannflor]

this is extremely conf biasy of me but the timing of tris moving off of hellbooks right after roden and I brought her wagon up to 3 votes plus the idea I have that scum would want to distance/interact early in this setup but be wary of hard bussing makes me think tris/hellbooks have some genuine scum equity together

[Dannflor]

hmm, i think the way hellbooks rolled out her vote and reasonings for Roden might be town

darn i wanted to scumread hellbooks

im gonna make a useless vote for VOTE: JacksonVirgo while i think about other players

this progression also feels kinda deliberate in a way that rubs me the wrong way

like there's a a kind of awkward self awareness around tris moving her vote away from hellbooks

[Dannflor]

VOTE: tris

I might like this better tbh

[Dannflor]

fire is town so far
I think Jupiter is town
Black leans town but not confident yet
I recently scum read usesPython when they were scum and so far I am not scum reading them this game. I'm not exactly town reading them yet either but I'm feeling okay about the slot.

the longer JV is a blank void the scummier they get
that leaves tris, hellbooks, roden

I don't think roden/hellbooks are partnered, roden's push seems a little too strong for that

I do think hellbooks is kind of an easy target to push for scum if she is town so I see her point about Roden if hellbooks is indeed town

so like right now if i were to call a team it would probably be either tris/hellbooks/JV or tris/roden/JV

JV thrown in there for lack of a better scum read

[Dannflor]

hmmmmmm

you are correct

[Dannflor]

Why did you say that then?

it was a fun observation that was surprising to me

[Dannflor]

well those were my real time thoughts as they happened. whats the self awareness part?

well, when i am scum, i often feel the need to sign post my thoughts and read shifts more than i do as town

i often find as town that i have some thoughts and reach a conclusion and take a hasty action that matches that whole process before ever revealing it in thread, then I have to go back and explain after the fact

as scum, i believe i have a tendency to try and show more of my thoughts as i go. so i don't disbelieve that you had all these thoughts, regardless of your alignment, but it feels almost too deliberate the way in which you explained each thought relating to your vote on hellbooks

i think 441 stuck out to me the most because you're lampshading the fact that you are moving from a vote that was doing something to a vote that doesn't really apply any pressure

which means to me that you are very aware of what you're vote is doing and how you're perceived and while that's not always a scum trait I think that type of... self-consciousness? is more likely to come from scum

[Dannflor]

ok fine the trisbooks ship has sunk


i think 503 is towny but maybe it's just because she flattered me by saying she wants me to be the assassin

[Dannflor]

Dann why do you townread Jupiter

Also why do you townread me? You were wrong about me in a couple of games that just ended. I would expect you to be a little more wary here

the mini normal i replaced into i had trouble getting confident reads on anyone given the circumstances, and i admit this as such. I had wrong reads on nearly every slot in the game so I consider that less of a specific to you problem and more of a specific to that game problem

but also I mean, I attached a qualifier to it and will fully admit it's a very weak read liable to change, idk how much more wary you want me to be. I don't really believe in not trying to read people just because they've fooled me before

[Dannflor]

fire why are you voting JV

[Dannflor]

Dann why do you townread Jupiter

the primary thing is that I think it's unlikely the first thing he'd do is go after me

the secondary thing is that i think he's actually been more forthcoming with his reads and reasonings than usual, obviously there's still an element of "idk" there

but the read on me, the read on you, the read on usesPython, I see where they all come from and it doesn't feel like they're just making up the reads out of thin air like I sometimes felt in the last game

[Dannflor]

fire do you have a read on me

(and what is it if yes)

[Dannflor]

have you noticed yet that all of my posts this game have been quoted from previous scum games

[Dannflor]

for legal reasons this is a joke

[Dannflor]

there's been a couple places where you avoided/ignored a question someone had about one of your reads. is that on purpose?

answering it would be boring

[Dannflor]

like black asked me why i town read jupiter and im pretty sure i described all the reasons i had to town read jupiter in the thread already

i could like do a really close cross-game comparison about why i think the way jupiter is outing reads this game seems subtly different from the way he outed reads last game but blah I am not yet confident enough on the read to really do that and it's mildly annoying to reiterate the same other reasonings ive already put in thread like I don't think Jupiter would want to push me as scum immediately after last game but black just hasn't engaged with that

[Dannflor]

I should be cooperative though

[Dannflor]

Why do you townread me then

the answer to this is just tone and vibes

I liked your push on Jupiter, which I already said

it's not a very strong read, when I get stronger reasons one way or another I'll let you know

[Dannflor]

the fact that tris seems confused by this rather than being like "oh i see what you mean however that is because of x and y and not because i am scum" is sort of making me doubt tbh

can you walk me through this because i don't get why the former is more likely to come from town!tris

[Dannflor]

having said all that

it is bothering me how much jupiter just doesn't care about interacting with me or pushing his read of me

[Dannflor]

JUPITER

[Dannflor]

black what are your reads at

[Dannflor]

JUPITER

yes?

are you still scum reading me what happened with that

[Dannflor]

there is no universe in which i allow scum buddy jupiter to interact with me the way they have in this game

[Dannflor]

the biggest I can see is that I believe self-image is generally scummy

this may not mean much coming from me if you think we're partnered but as someone who did meta on jupiter to determine whether this was scum indicative for jupiter

it's not

[Dannflor]

it's ok you can read games i played when i was 12 years old on this website

[Dannflor]

JV do you have a guess at a 3rd scum?

I'm like, substantially way more interested in your thoughts on any slots outside of me/jupiter

[Dannflor]

i don't know why you can't just give some like candid off-the-cuff summaries of your reads on everyone instead of lengthy iso dives

[Dannflor]

I have a deepdive written up for everyone

like it should not be that hard if this is true

even if it's just written up in your head

[Dannflor]

i would very much

[Dannflor]

i dont know you're just putting up such an unreadable barrier by prewriting a bunch of polished essays and then putting them into the thread

[Dannflor]

why did you choose to approach the game in this way instead of like... live catch up thread spew?

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

my vote is spiritually on jackson

[Dannflor]

i don't want to put you at e-1 right now

you can do the rest of your iso dives or whatever you're gonna do

[Dannflor]

thank you

[Dannflor]

VOTE: fireisredsir

[Dannflor]

fire has about an 85% chance of flipping scum

this is not a reaction test

[Dannflor]

i was hoping to save this for D2 and just instantly win but we only have a couple days left and i do not have a super strong secondary scum read

[Dannflor]

ah i had an untimely fit of getting very sleepy

ill be around in a few hours to like do my promised fire stuff

[Dannflor]

which btw i am assuming was a reaction test. probably more to see who jumped on board than for me but idk

why did you feel the need to say this?

[Dannflor]

that seems very timely actually

[Dannflor]

I think if you town read hellbooks, the odds of scum in one of [roden, jackson] increases massively

[Dannflor]

hellbooks is like exactly the kind of town slot that is desirable to scum read as scum

kinda think the same about jupiter tbh

[Dannflor]

[jupiter]
[tris, hellbooks, usesPython]
null——- [Roden]
[JacksonVirgo, Black]
[fireisredsir]

readlist 1/42

[Dannflor]

ok that makes sense

[Dannflor]

also im getting the feeling that you do actually scumread me although i assume it isn't actually for linguistic tell reasons

this is correct

so it both was and was not reaction test

[Dannflor]

i think i always kind of expect you to err on the side of assuming people are genuinely scum reading you as town

but maybe that’s less fair to expect in this particular situation

[Dannflor]

[jupiter]
[tris, hellbooks, usesPython]
null——- [Roden]
[JacksonVirgo, Black]
[fireisredsir]

readlist 1/42

Why did I drop

And how confident are you in your Jupiter read

i am not really getting the sense you’re trying to solve the game. You feel extremely tunnel visiony in pushing jupiter and i think you’re usually trying to put together teams and stuff by now and you’re just… not really doing any of that

I am pretty confident on jupiter!

[Dannflor]

i think i always kind of expect you to err on the side of assuming people are genuinely scum reading you as town

but maybe that’s less fair to expect in this particular situation

actually

did you think that i wouldn't know that you know this?

no, im aware you know i know this

[Dannflor]

well, i dont think emulating your town self is generally your first priority as scum

i think you probably have other instinctual reactions in terms of getting town read and shaping the narrative

im still mulling over your explanation so idk how strongly i feel about this particular point

Also apologies for waving this scum read around without just explaining, it’s gonna take some writing and im limited to my phone right now

[Dannflor]

VOTE: black

[Dannflor]

ill catch up after ausuka's marathon

[Dannflor]

jupiter i feel like you're listing reasons for why it's possible black and i are partnered rather than why it's probable

[Dannflor]

i also thought you were town reading black

[Dannflor]

it's more of a hypothesis than a conclusion

[Dannflor]

it is something that i am on high alert for especially after Dragon's frenemies game that just ended

ranger was someone i thought was town but was very likely to be pushed by scum

and then scum!STD spent all game hard pushing ranger

i think you and jupiter fit a similar profile of having lots of personality based things that are easy to scum read and, like, look *good* to scum read, so if you're town I'd expect you to attract scum

i am currently town reading you both but im not as confident as i was with ranger in that game though. but i like it as a working hypothesis

[Dannflor]

I think I could be wrong on Jupiter, and in that world Dannflor is scum

what made you think you could be wrong on jupiter?

[Dannflor]

He says it's because I'm not solving or making teams but I've already posted partner thoughts based on if Jupiter flips scum and I'm solving in my usual way

to be honest black, if you're town, your play feels like a facsimile of your usual town play

the partner post about me and fire feels like it lacks the usual fire (heh) that you usually have

like later you follow it up with a reads list that has me and fire both at the top of a null section, so it doesn't really feel like that association really informed your reads at all, it just kinda feels like a post you were compelled to make because town!Black would

so, yes, i recognize you've made the mechanical posts and movements that satisfy the "solving the game" requirement, but it just feels kinda lifeless to me

[Dannflor]

the push on me feels like the first thing with some real life behind it actually

[Dannflor]

i don't know why you stopped scum reading JV, fire

[Dannflor]

i think jupiter continues to be town for how wack the black/dann read is

[Dannflor]

uh idk

I’m actually having second thoughts after the marathon funnily enough

[Dannflor]

im 23 im not an adult

[Dannflor]

I'm having a hard time sorting the Dann/Jupiter dynamic

I just don't understand Jupiter being Dann's top townread if Dann is town. I can't wrap my head around that at all

I feel like at least one has to be scum

I feel like you often don’t understand my reads

[Dannflor]

VOTE: JV

I dont wanna kill black after all that

[Dannflor]

I dont have time right now oll be. Back in a few hours to talk to you fire

[Dannflor]

I'm having a hard time sorting the Dann/Jupiter dynamic

I just don't understand Jupiter being Dann's top townread if Dann is town. I can't wrap my head around that at all

I feel like at least one has to be scum

Sorry my earlier post was unhelpful

I don’t know why it’s so hard to wrap your head around the fact that I’d have a strong binary read on someone I just had the opposite read on (correctly) in a different game

Like I know you disagree but I think Jupiter has been very different here so far

[Dannflor]

I don’t know this whole “one of jupiter or dann must be scum” thing is quite frustrating to hear because i strongly believe we’re both town

[Dannflor]

ok im here for a couple hours

[Dannflor]

the post is in the direction im describing but it's nuanced and hard to clearly define bc the difference between town!dann explaining his process and scum!dann trying to look like he's town is going to be pretty minor bc he's good at scum

you're looking for this big obvious difference (which mayhaps is my mistake if i made it sound like there was one) but it's more in the tone and the framing and the fact that he chose to say it at all

i chose to say it because it's a very recent thing that successfully worked and made me think "hm, maybe this is a high percentage type of scum tell to use"

my underlying motivation was less "look at me i have a process" and more "im excited to share this thing that i think works"

[Dannflor]

so fire!

my big reasons for scum reading you:

1) I feel like you've been playing *around* me more than trying to play *with* me. You've danced around your read of me a lot, voted me a couple times, and joked about the linguistic tell a lot. I can't help but feel that the way you're handling my slot is more designed to pocket me than to either sort me or try to solve with me. It seems like you're afraid to give a definitive stance on me, and maybe that's because you think I'm a hard slot to read. But, tbh, I don't feel that's ever really stopped you in the past from forming a hypothesis on my alignment and moving forward until you have more evidence.

Your thoughts on me, from 667 to 996 feel like you're more interested in showing off a process with regards to my slot, which I think is something you are heavily invested in doing as scum. This is a pretty narcissistic point that has made me sympathize with hellbooks more.

1.5) Your reaction to my 85% scum read post kinda cemented the above as well, because it seemed like your first priority was to have a "good reaction," and by that I mean one that I would town read. Posts 774 and 775 and 805 all cement that you're not worried about my read on you. Which, fine, maybe you aren't and are trying to show that because you are town. But I think I found it weird that that was your priority over like any thoughts on what the whole ordeal might mean for my alignment. *maybe* i am overestimating the amount of intellectual thought you can draw out of my push with no reasoning there

2) i thought your reflective stepback with tris was more likely to be scum!fire than town!fire. again, this revolves around a difference that I believe exists in your gameplay, where you're more likely to want to show your Very Towny Thought Process as scum than you are as town. obviously you are very good at having intricate thought processes as both alignments and explaining them, but I do think there is a slight increase in your scum game where you are more likely to over explain yourself because you already do it as town a lot AND it looks good. 610 in particular strikes me as going overboard. I know tris specifically asked you to explain, but at this point your read had already moved towards town reading tris. so this post feels about 10 lines too long for what it needs to do. and I'm left asking, who is this for??

3) 235 feels scummy. idk, i don't know how often town actually looks at interactions like that in RVS and go "hm yes this is an interesting event in the game let us ponder it but not actually draw any conclusions from it." it feels like an exercise in showing off your thought process rather than either acquiring useful information or doing anything with it

that's about it. part of the reason I put this off was because the reasons are quite nebulous and i think there's a pretty thin margin between your town posting and your scum posting and I didn't want to come in and call your posting fake and then be wrong.

[Dannflor]

black had a specific kind of "this is unfair" tone a few pages ago that I probably wouldn't expect from her as scum

[Dannflor]

i guess i was kind of thinking the scum team was black/fire/jackson and now im more inclined to think it's like fire/tris/jackson and the long reflective stepback between fire/tris was some distancing but i can't tell if I just think that because the popular trending sentiment in the last few pages is black trending up and tris trending down

i think im most comfortable just killing jackson because they just feel like frozen scum to me

[Dannflor]

like the wall post jackson made on jupiter is just like... such an incredibly easy post to make as scum and they've made no other posts that feel like genuine live engagements in the game

i mean there is a world where jackson is not engaged in the game as town but i think if that were the case the wall post would never have happened

it feels like jackson is obligated to do big things but the desire behind it isn't actually there

[Dannflor]

roden is in a similar boat where they had one big push and didn't really do anything else, i just feel like roden's posting is a little more natural than JV's and roden didn't have the same "im obligated to do big things" type vibe that I felt from JV

and i kinda just wanna town read 189

[Dannflor]

anyway, my first choice to eliminate right now would be JV

my second choice would probably be fire

after that idk

I think JV!scum kinda necessitates Jupiter!town and I town read Jupiter independently

hellbooks is an elevated town read

tris and usesPython and black are all slots I've felt are vaguely towny at different times but I don't have a unique measure of confidence on any of them right now

[Dannflor]

I probably shouldn't town read Black based on AtE but I know I don't want to deal with that today

[Dannflor]

I felt like the frustration behind "you're scum reading me for not being as good at mafia as you" felt townie

idk if I should

[Dannflor]

You’re right, I signed up for the game so I feel obligated to do something even though I’m not feeling it, and as such I naturally overcompensate. I feel bad cuz I don’t want to slack off at all so I work in bursts based from my motivation spikes that I get but that turns into burning out even more which is hilarious but oh well.

i guess i feel like the obligation behind your big wall posts and push on me/jupiter feels more like it comes from feeling obligated to a scum team than it does feeling obligated to try to play the game

because i think the area of possibility behind "doing something" as town is way wider than "doing something" as scum for most players

[Dannflor]

didn't you say that the marathon game made you reconsider? @dann

well it made me pause because it made me realize fire!scum would probably be working very hard in this setup to create some realistic distancing with one or more partners a la her fight with firebringer about the setup, and i didn't really see anything in this game that matched that type of dynamic

but that's not a particularly strong point by itself

[Dannflor]

I‘ve lost like 4 out of 5 of my most recent scum games

[Dannflor]

this is not to say im bad at scum, i think i am decent, but the deepwolf title originated from a radiantcowbells meme, not my proficiency at the alignment

this is why i rejected the title that referenced it bc i felt like ppl interpreted it to be about ny scumplay instead of a meme

[Dannflor]

the good place is a good show i cried at the end

i have also cried at bad shows

[Dannflor]

like when i inexplicably binge watched 6 seasons of gossip girl

[Dannflor]

I am not sure what about my posts on the other page seemed like super good logic to anyone

I was just kinda spouting my feelings

[Dannflor]

dann i don't really feel like responding to your reasons rn although i acknowledge their existence

i think this has felt like a weird game to me in that there seems to be a larger than usual gap between how i think ive posted/whats been in my brain, and what actually has shown up in the thread

im not really sure why that is. sorry about that

It’s fine

I didn’t post it to get a response more just because i felt bad holding it over you without explaining

[Dannflor]

ty for the explanation yeah

can i ask why you've been theorizing about scumteams this game

I just kind of, always do?

I also think that the setup makes thinking about how scum teams would interact with each other very relevant

[Dannflor]

i should consider the merits of returning my vote to JV

did you consider these merits

[Dannflor]

it might be more correct not to do so

But I guess I feel the reward for the pressure it might exert is worth the consequences of scum being able to play around it

[Dannflor]

hmmmm

[Dannflor]

generally, I believe it to just be harder to get into a game as scum than town. The fact that Jackson has had good scum games in the past does not preclude him from being frozen in this case.

I also think having one strong scum read and doing nothing else in the game but pushing that scum read is a very common pattern to fall into as scum, especially one struggling to get into the game. it's easier to pick one read to develop and make look real than it is to offer a breadth of thought about the game. and, despite Jackson claiming over and over again that they do have a ton of thoughts about everyone in the game, the only posts of substance written by Jackson have been concerning their feelings around Jupiter.

I think as town, it's very natural for other things in the game besides your primary scum read to interest you, and for you to want to comment on them even in passing. As scum, you can build up a barrier for yourself because your content naturally needs to meet higher standards than your town content needs to.

if jackson is town, i do not understand why their focus is solely on Jupiter. It does not feel real, it feels like they are forcing themselves to engage with the game. Yes, they can be town forcing themselves to engage with the game, but in that case I feel their engagement would look differently

[Dannflor]

tumbleweeds

[Dannflor]

JacksonVirgo (3): hellbooks, Dannflor, tris (E-2)
JupiterXV (3): JacksonVirgo, usesPython, Black (E-2)
hellbooks (1): Political Clout

Not Voting (2): JupiterXV, fireisredsir

for posterity

[Dannflor]

just noticed that dann joined the site in 2012 wow
gut dann scum, if i'm wrong you guys can yell at me later

actually I could probably be wrong on that.

yeah I'm probably super wrong on that

not me psyching myself up for a strong and cool read and then immediately backing out of it
i think my main reason for retracting that read is because we're honestly not that far into the game yet and the reason behind the gutread is a little silly when dann has only posted seven times

dann scum

i played a game with him and by his first ten posts he was clearly more active and participating and like actively contributing but then i was like ehh that's a stupid reason because there's way less momentum in this game

as far as Jupiter goes, I've town read them since this sequence.

I *know* that Jupiter often had a pattern of:

1. "I think X!"
2. "wait no nvm im stupid"
3. someone else asks "why did you think X?"
4. "idk idk"

in his recent scum game.

Aside from me thinking it is unlikely that Jupiter would come out of the gate with a scum read on me after our last game together (and to continue pushing me even as I remain one of their biggest defenders in the game), I also think that the quoted sequence has one important difference from the scum sequence described.

That is, I don't think 170 exits if Jupiter is scum. 170 seems like a very believable explanation for not only Jupiter's read, but also why Jupiter might immediately doubt that read and take it back. In their scum game, Jupiter's "idk maybe im stupid" felt like a performance, where Jupiter was trying to put on an air of having believable reads, but often didn't have anything to back it up. In this game, I'm finding that Jupiter consistently has some basis behind these feelings, even if a similar pattern of self-doubt is emerging.

Even when it comes to more nebulous reads, Jupiter is quick and confident about saying that their reads are based in gut. I feel Jupiter lacked this kind of confidence in the previous scum game and would more readily admit that they their feelings weren't really based on anything, even gut.

Is it possible jupiter could make these changes to their play between games? yes, probably. but the difference seems stark to me, and when combined with Jupiter's confident tone and just "no ur wrong" attitude, they feel very towny to me

[Dannflor]

tbh rereading roden's ISO

i think there is an above average chance roden/JV is two scum

which like a very boring world to be sure but sometimes that just happens

[Dannflor]

If PC is town here it's gonna be almost impossible for a d1 scum lim to happen without bussing since it would require the entire rest of the town to vote correctly or for scum to not be able to off their buddy effectively which with the JV/Jupiter split isn't gonna happen. In that case we'd rather just treat today like a loyal vig shot and set up for a simpler day 2

im not really sure what you intend to say with this

is it supposed to justify your vote on Jupiter or argue against my case for JV?

[Dannflor]

We are hella down to kill PC here

i don't know why you'd rather kill a new replacement who has a good chance of getting into the game and spewing alignment over JV who has repeatedly shown that this is the limit of their engagement with this game and isn't really spewing any further alignment

[Dannflor]

If Jupiter is town then leaving them alive for tomorrow means Black probably mislims there and we're not too confident in Jupiters aim so Jupiter probably needs to go d1 in a town Black game

this logic seems kinda wack to me

are you not worried about JV being town and me miselimming there tomorrow instead? what makes black's scum read of Jupiter special

[Dannflor]

Ask us again when we've had a full nights sleep but we'd probably add Roden to the list and

also need to re-read JV to see if they should be on the list

did you ever do this?

[Dannflor]

We are hella down to kill PC here

okay but also why say this if you are so worried about Jupiter sniping

[Dannflor]

had a thought idk if i should say out loud or not

[Dannflor]

We are hella down to kill PC here

okay but also why say this if you are so worried about Jupiter sniping

Gonna hold off on answering this until tomorrow, someone remind us if Dann gets shot

it feels very contrived that your logic only applies to not killing Jackson today and yet you are happy with either Jupiter or PC

i am struggling to follow this as a genuine thought process about who to lim

[Dannflor]

ive had a lot of those but im starting to come around to thinking that it's been negative useful

to not say them?

[Dannflor]

dragon can you give me and fire a PT really quick

[Dannflor]

happy to just wait for PC's catch up I suppose

[Dannflor]

Done, we are hella down to call JV scum

how does that compare to your jupiter scum read

[Dannflor]

lol @ 1244

[Dannflor]

thats probably towny actually?

referring to 1244? i think slightly yeah

[Dannflor]

yeah im a bit perplexed atm

[Dannflor]

no it sounds familiar to me

[Dannflor]

i feel pretty neutral about PC's catchup in the end

[Dannflor]

my suspicion of hellbooks dropped off at some undefined point

[Dannflor]

846 would be a wild post to make about two scum partners i kinda wish it was

[Dannflor]

VOTE: usesPython

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

ehhhh

[Dannflor]

thinking

[Dannflor]

there is something squicky to me about PC saying my post about fire was very good and then turning around and voting with fire

and like maybe there aren't a lot of worlds where JV makes sense as scum because of The Gamestate but also one of the worlds where JV does make sense as scum is one in which PC and/or Fire are also scum and this is like... exactly the best move to make right here

on the other hand I think python's posting around page 49 is like super contrived and they might just be scum and this is a Good Town Driven flash wagon and I'm just being paranoid

[Dannflor]

t'would be interested in hearing your thoughts on JV, Political Clout

[Dannflor]

VOTE: usesPython

[Dannflor]

Yeah i guess i don’t super believe in the world where you/PC orchestrated a sudden pivot onto usesPython

I feel it’s more like only one of you is scum in the event one of you is scum

if that means anything at all

[Dannflor]

frankly unfair that dannflor gets people scared of him being too high in their townreads and i don't

i am scared of you being too high in my town reads does that make you feel better

[Dannflor]

ranger not having me as strong town or strong scum yet is so dragon

[Dannflor]

UNVOTE:

I also type out my vote tags but i did not mess them up

Goodnight

[Dannflor]

that makes sense

[Dannflor]

i did think it was weird you said my play was designed to pocket you bc i don't think this is at all close to how i would try to pocket you. that would i think involve a lot more direct sorting engagement and back and forth than normal, not less

hm. I mean, I think that's sort of the Level 1 way to pocket someone.

I have been more worried because to me it seems like you have been thinking a lot about my alignment behind the scenes and like... working very hard to present a real and thought through trajectory on my alignment, which I think taken at face value is probably a more effective way to pocket someone.

I still have those lingering thoughts with 1515 and 1516 because it all makes sense and I can see that in your play, but I don't think it's beyond you to have this behind the scenes thought process as scum and want to show me just glimpses of it until it all comes spiraling out like this.

I guess it all feels different from how you treated me in divide and conker, where I feel you were a bit more upfront with your thoughts on my alignment throughout the game, but maybe I was easier to read in that game

[Dannflor]

if it helps

I think there's a recent pattern in my scum vs. town games where I tend to start my town games pretty reserved specifically because I think that's the best way to form better reads (basically by pretending im more of a spectator)

And in my scum games I tend to start out more proactive because that's the best way to get thread cred

of course now that I have mentioned that and made it clear I'm aware of that meta difference it is possible I just manipulated that just for this game but yknow whatever

[Dannflor]

uhm im not exceptionally town reading Ranger's catch up

[Dannflor]

I'll say you're probably never going to top town or top scum for the exact same reason; fear.

I don't believe fear has ever stopped you forming a confident read on me before. What is different about my play this game?

[Dannflor]

I'd also love an explanation of the hellbooks town read

[Dannflor]

no idea because i didn't roll scum this game

[Dannflor]

{hellbooks}
{JupiterXV}
{fireisredsir, usesPython, Dannflor}
{Black}
{Political Clout, tris}

P56

[Dannflor]

VOTE: usesPython

[Dannflor]

i agree with fire

[Dannflor]

i have a new solve i want to talk about but it's probably correct to just not

[Dannflor]

but in other news i think fireistownsir

[Dannflor]

so...

you both believe bussing D1 is perfectly playable for scum in this setup

but you also believe it is impossible to flip scum D1

[Dannflor]

fireisredsir and i have a PT

[Dannflor]

okay but why are you assuming scum would not be bussing and it's impossible to flip scum D1

[Dannflor]

you held this belief before you were the main wagon

[Dannflor]

and im pretty sure you are the only one who has voiced anti-support for a Ranger wagon

[Dannflor]

you pulled at this very same logic in Friends and Enemies where you assumed where a bunch of people's reads were locked in at and made a show of being like "welp im dead i don't have the numbers"

that feels like a very... idk, incurious way to play the game

[Dannflor]

you unvoted ranger so that means you will not vote ranger again

[Dannflor]

Dann how do you normally kill people/not get killed during the day as scum

varies? i wouldn't say my goal is always to not get killed as scum

i usually try to figure out who will be the best elimination for furthering my win condition and work my way towards making that happen in one way or another

[Dannflor]

there are lots of ways, why

[Dannflor]

wow omg what

[Dannflor]

i feel like im losing the plot a little bit

the original point is like, why are you specifically taking Ranger off the table for today?

[Dannflor]

and you say it's like, because you don't have the numbers

but like, certainly you have more numbers for that than for tris??

[Dannflor]

so it just feels like your logic is more rooted in how you think you will appear than any actual reality of the game

[Dannflor]

so, by that logic, you would like to kill the least useful town player?

[Dannflor]

feel like we're talking in circles and it's because your logic is circular

[Dannflor]

what are the odds this is the same usesPython we just lost to?

i thought you too logical for a statement like this

[Dannflor]

schrodinger's bus

scum are both bussing and refusing to bus at any given time

[Dannflor]

hellbooks do you have opinions to share

[Dannflor]

We're getting pulled into counterproductive wordgames, Dann what's your read on tris

vaguely town read in that she doesn't especially appear to be trying to get town read

[Dannflor]

i am pretty sketched out by this post ngl

HAHAHAHAA this is a phrase from previous scum games i just got this joke

don't mind me

[Dannflor]

sorry, not the linguistic tell

[Dannflor]

in actuality i don't know if this specific linguistic tell is in vogue anymore as it proved inaccurate for pizza kids coalition

[Dannflor]

god damn it

[Dannflor]

it seems a strange assumption to make that we're just going to steam ahead without reevaluating after missing D1

[Dannflor]

zzz

[Dannflor]

hellbooks feels scummier since python got wagoned

[Dannflor]

i am pushing this idea since she solved my scum team

[Dannflor]

but actually i find it weird that it took you until 1621 to say anything about your ostensibly top town read usesPython being wagoned and interrogated

it kinda seems like you are waiting to see which way the wind will blow

[Dannflor]

not helping the “dann and fire are two evil masterminds cackling away in a dark tower” accusations