Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[Kmd4390]

Vote verydark

That's a real vote on scum and I'll definitely come back to it post game and brag that I caught him Day 1.

I also have a real read on Mathdino if anyone wants to guess what that is. Same for Agent Sparkles but that one isn't as strong.

So three reads on page 1. I also want to guess town on Gamma and scum on pops but those are so weak that their next post could definitely change my guess.

[Kmd4390]

Vote verydark

That's a real vote on scum and I'll definitely come back to it post game and brag that I caught him Day 1.

I also have a real read on Mathdino if anyone wants to guess what that is. Same for Agent Sparkles but that one isn't as strong.

So three reads on page 1. I also want to guess town on Gamma and scum on pops but those are so weak that their next post could definitely change my guess.

I guess town on Math because of his immediate commitment to reminding people of common-sense strategy? As for me, I have no idea.

I'm definitely interested in seeing the reason behind the verydark read, considering 6 was his one contribution to the thread.

Correct. Mathdino is a town read. You are a town read as well.

Verydark's phrasing of "let's get some scum" is what the new kids are calling LAMIST if I'm not mistaken.

[Kmd4390]

Don't town read me for that. I'd do it as scum too.

[Kmd4390]

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

That "prediction" is NAI. It's a joke based on our Team Mafia team.

It is?

[Kmd4390]

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

That "prediction" is NAI. It's a joke based on our Team Mafia team.

It is?

Well, I'm assuming it is. It may not be a joke given it's Dino, in which case I can only speak to 1/4 of the prediction being wrong.

Oh, I'm dumb. Was thinking BuJaber meant my reads in my first post. Yeah, Mathdino's was clearly a Serious Business joke.

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My vote becoming a wagon has me a little paranoid, but both votes seem fine on their own...

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On, pops, it feels more like "fuck you, I'm doing my thing". He's definitely not just scum trying to blatantly hunt masons. If he's doing that as scum, it's for town cred or because he'd do it as town. I don't really think Gamma voting him for it is scummy though. I feel like I've seen Gamma reach early in games.

[Kmd4390]

Mathdino, without saying why, does post 51 give you any kind of read?

North, I think I get what pops is saying there but I don't agree that he's applying it correctly. I think it's just gamma looking for a place to vote early in the game.

[Kmd4390]

honestly i was just about to say that guiltylion is probably the scum of the serious business team

I'm townreading you and North. I doubt we all drew town though. What is your read on Dave if you have one?

[Kmd4390]

@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

@Kmd: Is Dave ever townish? Null.

*shrug*... I never really thought of him as someone with a scummy style until he told us he sees himself that way. I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I've usually townread him in the past. If our verydark wagon turns out to be on town, dave's vote was the one that stood out to me as possible opportunism.

Wow, ya'll are killing me.

I literally just finished a newbie game, and only have 4 games under my belt TOTAL (from 7 years ago). I was just RVSing. Chill out, good grief.

I wanted to play a game a little more fast paced than the newbie ones, I guess I should have emotionally prepared myself.

I phoneposted the RVS comment, and was 3rd to post. Didn't really have anything funny to comment on, except Agent Sparkles is a funny name that I could memorize by the time I got to the reply box.

I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.

Can't help but notice this is 100% survivalist/defensive/overreacting and 0% scumhunting. Post 84 might be genuine though... Hmm...

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I'll have to read page 5 and beyond at another time. My pizza is here.

[Kmd4390]

...the fuck?

That's basically my reaction to verydark on that page as well. He says the risk of a scum hammer is minimal because mathdino is already voting him (the closest thing he'd done to scumhunting at that time by the way), then when asked whether all three scum were voting him says he's L-2 so scum could hammer. He seems oblivious to the idea that scum could already be on his wagon immediately after implying that that is the case. I'm confused. And I'm still seeing all of this content around his own wagon, but next to nothing toward trying to find scum.

Can we just call your "wagon test" a part of RVS and keep it moving?

So can we just chalk this up to newbie?

^Those feel very eager to make the wagon go away.

let's get it right on D1.

What does this mean to you and how do you intend to do it?

Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

My vote wasn't. I'm guessing mathdino started to want that as soon as he realized North was the only one missing. I don't think dave's vote had anything to do with who was on the wagon already either. Or Guiltylion. So basically from the sounds of it, Mathdino wanting North to vote was the only part that was meme-ish. Can you go into detail on why you don't think Mathdino is playing to his town meta? Because building a wagon in the first few pages seems to fit his idea of playing politically as does the policy aspect of his vote remaining on verydark. I also think not wanting to talk about associations fits with townMathdino unless it was a pregame idea he stuck with to look town.

________________

Mathdino, I know you say you're good with the verydark wagon and all but...I don't think I agree with your initial reasons for townreading him. I've seen that defensiveness from scum plenty of times and the choice of survivalism and defense over scumhunting is something that I believe comes from scum more often than not.

________________

I'm through Page 6.

[Kmd4390]

I also have a considerably weaker scumlean on Sando and slight townlean on GL.

Can you talk to me about those? Because I'm not sure where they are coming from and I'd lean the other way.

davesaz is now locktown btw.

Gamma vs pops: TvT

Huh? Why?

So I'm holding a referendum. Everyone is invited (but not required) to give their opinion about a longer deadline. I'm proposing extending the deadline to 11 real life days per game day (other proposals welcome, but this is a baseline if there is strong support for extending it but no concensus on how long.)

I'm good with a change to 11.

semi-serious RVS

This is a phrase that has always pinged me. I don't believe in half-jokes in general. Either it was RVS or it was serious. I like your vote though so I'll leave you alone for now.

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I'm through Page 7.

[Kmd4390]

VOTE: BuJaber

I think both BuJaber and Gamma have high likelihood of being scum. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that verydark should be policied at some point for the self-vote, but I don't think he's a very informative flip or wagon at this stage anymore because it's going to be super easy for scum to vote him on the basis of the AtE and the self-vote. Would like a lot more discussion and maybe some alternative wagons before we all pile on the dude just because he flipped out at being wagoned

I'd rather Lynch scum than Lynch for info. That's why verydark is a good Lynch.

Lesson learned about the self-voting, it's more damaging than helpful. Got it.

What did you expect it to do that would be helpful?

______________

I see there is discussion about the recruit. I've thought about how it should be used and basically I think it should be used like an investigation. I want it used on someone who is hard to get a read on. If they don't get recruited, we have a guilty. If they do, it's an innocent. Right now, my pool would be something like [Dave, guiltylion, BuJaber]. That could change though. Oh, the two inactive slots would be cool too.

not sure if dave or Kmd are okay with this wagon still

I'm good with it.

I'd really like to put this whole thing to rest and move on. It was an honest mistake, I was trying to do something dramatic to prove I was town. I failed.

Guys, look. The AtE was fake.

When KMD, GL or I am by far among the most likely NKs

Dude. Don't put that Target on me.

^I wrote that before you posted KMD but I assume that answers your question about Mathdino?

Mostly. I see where you are coming from now which is good. But I've seen Mathdino talk about policy voting enough that I don't see it as being against his town meta. As far as the verydark wagon, go back and read my post 221. I'm pretty sure the joke/meme was Mathdino wanting North's vote, not the entire wagon.

I feel like this is scum trying to break up a townbloc but not willing to go for a specific player yet

Woah, slow down on the town Bloc thing. I've already mentioned my own doubts on you and Dave.

[Kmd4390]

Is it weird if I think kop might be town for those two posts?

____________

I'm lost on your view on Dave. You called him locktown which made it sound like a read. This follow up sounds more like you are treating him that way due to his style which is weird on its own coming from someone who often endorses policy stances to remove anti town or pro scum players from the game. It's like you are looking at Dave like a mulch or not mafia type player, yet giving him a pass for it where you'd typically be harsh on someone like that.

Fair on pops/gamma.

[Kmd4390]

I'll catch up when I can..
*Sigh*

[Kmd4390]

i agree with sparkles here on sando and GL – could you describe where your reads there are coming from?

Sando is a gut read. His posts in the beginning of the game felt very...free flowing and unfiltered. I know he didn't really say anything where scum would be like "oh wait should I say that?" but what he did say doesn't feel like it went through that kind of filter. Does that make sense? On Guiltylion, he feels like he's trying to come off as very transparent rather than actually being transparent.

Myloninja lurked and posted infrequently in my last game, so if we are giving meta reads, I'd say he's town.
Agent Sparkles is demonstrating a more slow and methodical method of gameplay which I identify with (sans my incident earlier)
Kmd4390 tears me apart in several subsequent posts, but sprinkles in some other players to make it not feel like an outright tunnel/attack on me. Also says he's townreading northsidegal, which I agree with, and makes him more likely scum.

A few issues with your reads:
-Mylo - that feels like too shallow of a thought to be real. Why do you think he'd be more active as scum? Have you seen his scum game? What is your sample size? Has he lurked as town more often than as scum? What was the reason for his lurking? Did he believe it helped town? Don't bother answering those. You've already said it's as simple as he lurked as town once. That's not worth a town read.
-Agent Sparkles - ok...but why is that town?
-me - Bias of knowing I'm town aside, this is your worst read on the list. First of all, I kind of am tunneling you. I can see that. But you seem to WANT it to be to the point that I don't care about anything in this game except you being lynched. That wouldn't be very helpful. And then you scum read me for having a read that matches yours. Um, what?

^I'm seeing now that Mathdino already covered all of these (as well as some good points on the dave and gamma reads), but I'll leave it here so people can see where my issues were with that list.

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Through Page 12

Fixed formatting.

[Kmd4390]

I read page 13. I don't think gammas post about not believing a hypothetical Mason claim from very dark without a partner claiming is scummy. I think it's just gamma view on not believing very dark could be a mason, which while he probably shouldn't have said and isn't necessarily accurate anyway, being expressed. It's his way of showing us his confidence in that stance..

Sorry for going one page at a time lately. I'm squeezing in what time I can.

[Kmd4390]

Ugh. Mathdino vs Sando is painful to read. It's clearly just a miscommunication and they both get so frustrated. Mathdino, Sando sees your comment about leaving Gamma alive because he's easier to read later as not necessarily having a town read even though you said in another post you townread him. He sees two reasons for not wanting to lynch Gamma and assumes they contradict when they actually don't. I see Sando got replaced so I'm not gonna bother explaining Mathdino's side unless I see someone else confused.

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Where is the Gamma suspicion coming from? Can someone explain that one to me?

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Through Page 15 now.

[Kmd4390]

Why does verydark only have three votes now?

[Kmd4390]

meh I'm waffling a lot on verydark though, feel a lot better about the BuJaber scumread

Can you go into some detail on your reasons for scumreading BuJaber? I see a few mentions that he's scummy and the two things you mentioned (trying to stir the pot, trying to justify a town read) up to the point of this post don't do anything for me. Those two points would seem like confirmation bias except that I don't see an original reason for the read.

His only real scumread is on mylonnia which is an easy read to make at the moment.

Don't fall into that trap. Sometimes easy reads are easy for a reason. Dave could be scum, but scumreading mylo isn't enough of a reason on it's own.

I'm pretty sure Sando is town for this now that I think about it.

Agreed, but from now on when anyone asks why Sando is town, my answer will be "reasons" so I don't have to go into it.

like i think scum has to be in {Kop, Mylo}

and then probably scum in {verydark, Bujaber}

but then what

are we to lynch in the meme team

None of this is for associative reasons, but I can see verydark, mylo, and one of dave/guiltylion being scum.

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Through Page 16

[Kmd4390]

What if four people told you the same thing? One of them must be town, at least.

(Conveniently, he has four Team Mafia teammates in this game...)

Sorry, but I was one of those teammates and I don't see his meta the same way he and Mathdino do. I've never viewed him as a lynchbaity player until he said he was one and I played with him a handful of times before that. I feel like I've had no trouble townreading him in the past. I'd have to go back and look to see if that's accurate, but that's how I've remembered him.

{quote="BuJaber"]That may be true but I'm pretty sure I've used it myself before as town.[/quote]

This reads as really bad survivor tell. S_S isn't even voting him. BuJabertown would care about arguing why it is valid to or logically justified to do so, not care about arguing it isn't logic he only employs when he rolls scum... which no one even said...
VOTE: BuJaber

Not only that, but the fact that he goes to being pretty sure he did it as town before rather than knowing he did it as town just now is kinda ugly. I've been townreading BuJaber a bit, but I don't care too much for that post.

Someone explicitly townread Agent Sparkles, not sure why.

Me.

Scum do not have survival as part of their wincon any more than town do.

Therefore yes it's survivalistic but that's not scummy.

I don't want to go too deep into theory, but I disagree. Town have much larger numbers and a certain number are expected to die throughout a game, especially via NK. It's arguably beneficial to your team if you are a VT and get NK'd instead of a power role. Scum have smaller numbers and need to focus on not getting lynched, therefore surviving. Scum also don't have to try to catch scum, obviously. So that's an added goal that town has where scum's entire motivation is don't get lynched. Even if you don't agree with me, it's enough of a perception that it's what most people act on. Survivalistic play IS scummy. I get that it benefits town to look town and I do actively try to look town as both alignments myself, but that's an art most people haven't mastered. If I see someone being survivalistic, I usually associate that with scum.

I do think the pops vs Bujaber conflict in #415 feels weird, I thought it might be SvS

I'm actually shocked by this.

Hard to say for sure because pops and gamma sort of soft-defended him and the rest defended him based on meta. For now I'll assume Dave is town and watch the other 4.

I assume by "the other 4" you mean the Serious Business players? Because if so, I want you to show me where I defended dave on meta.

I'm good with basically policy lynching a lurker if this is how it's gonna be. Letting this game sputter out when it hits 5p or 3p is not my cup of tea.

I wouldn't be too upset if it was Mylo if not for the fact that I don't really want to let verydark live.

Who are the new kids? Why is LAMIST alignment indicative?

Anyone new enough to use that phrase as if it's been around forever. His post gave off a vibe like he was trying to make sure we all could see that his intent is to go "get the scum" and that he can't be scum himself. He's done a lot scummier stuff since then though so I'd rather focus on that than on what caught my attention in his first post.

This also reads pretty genuine.

What is genuine about playing the newbie card in the way that verydark did there? He basically asked for a do-over because his attempt to stop his wagon with AtE didn't work.

The timing of his self-vote doesn’t read alignment indicative to me. A self-vote is usually aim to convey that one is checking out and giving up. There’s no motivation to do that as either alignment.

I also personally believe scum in his position are more likely to wait for a chance self-hammer than put themselves in self-hammer range.

He straight up told us his motivation was to AtE us into unvoting him.

I don’t. What’s the scum motivation for him not doing anything?

Scum motivation would be to wait until there is a good town wagon going to chime in?

Or the fact that some players are scared of being scum because they think they are going to say something dumb and get lynched so they stay quiet instead. Not sure if Mylo is that kind of player or not though.

I'm finally back, apologies for being completely absent so far.

I'm liking LUV, MathDitto, dave and Gamma, they all seem town-motivated and actually interesting in finding scum.

Not sure what I feel about Pop and verydark, they both have townish actions but they both seem distant in actually trying to discover scum in this game.

Pretty much everyone else left no notable impression on me so far.

So...who is scum then?

Even if you can't figure out that as SK your survival has a 1:1 correlation with your victory, and as town it's 1/15, and scum is naturally between, at the very least town is both trying to survive and trying to find scum, and scum is trying to survive and not doing anything else, so it should be obvious that a focus on surviving tilts that way.

Yes! This! Definitely this! This is the theory point I was trying to make above.

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I'm through post 505. I plan on finishing this tonight.

[Kmd4390]

This Bujaber wagon kinda just came outta nowhere.

I feel like that's not what happened with pops and gamma. Can you remind me why you're voting there though?

I think you and Gamma demonstrated town motivation by giving me that breathing room, and I originally had you both as scum-leaning. After re-reading I think you've both also added valuable insight to the game.

Why is that town as opposed to simply something that benefits you? Can you describe the process in your re-read that made you flip those reads? (This is me calling BS by the way)

that would be perceived as opportunistic.

I see more scum motivation in these words than I'd have seen in a vote.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Meh, the vote probably would have been fine in my opinion depending on the reasoning behind it. For example, had you said "I know this is gonna look opportunistc, but I think he's scum and here's why <insert reasons> so I don't care if I look bad as long as he's lynched" I'd have seen that as town. But my biggest issue with you is the fact that you appear very concerned about people's view of you and not at all concerned about finding scum. That quote supports that read.

You don't have to I probably shouldn't look at avatars with the corner of my eye and instead read the player name.

This is funny to me because I keep thinking pops is gamma. I think Gamma used to have an avatar with similar colors to what pops is using now.

say/ask something to get me interested in this game again? it doesn't feel like there's much to analyse or push right now

like i'm hella nervous about verydark here

If I haven't already, I probably won't be much help to you. But maybe you could start by elaborating on what you mean about verydark?

[Kmd4390]

Mylo who is scum?

[Kmd4390]

Guiltylion, yeah that sounds more like you just disagree with him than anything....

Mylo, who is scum?

[Kmd4390]

It sounds like an excuse. What do you think about the first half of that post?

And yes, VD did admit to essentially voting himself in order to make us believe he’s town. This doesn’t change the fact that there is no motivation to self-vote as either alignment. Or I guess I should say not much.

But this situation I s different because he told us exactly what his motivation was. And that motivation is scummy.
.

.
ATE can tend to help scum avoid being lynched. It does nothing to ensure mislynches however. It's merely a signal of how committed someone is to the course they are taking and/or how frustated they are by the situation

.
You seem to be assuming there was more of a thought process behind his actions than there probably was.

[Kmd4390]

Brass, can you be more specific on what exactly verydark is doing here that he did as town? Have you also seen his scum game?

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Ugh. 590 may actually be swaying me here...

[Kmd4390]

Brass, can you be more specific on what exactly verydark is doing here that he did as town? Have you also seen his scum game?

___________

Ugh. 590 may actually be swaying me here...

It's a blatant AtE post. It doesn't have true value.

Verydark is Verymuch at the tooscummytobescum VI-dash-scum threshhold, where you kind of can't do much. It's critical mass state where new data can't really change your read. You always feel bad because they're not slamdunkscum. There's a real nonzero number of players that just outright have play that ugly as town, virtually all of them early in career. But there's an even larger number of players that openly beg not to be lynched and refuse to do work and chug all the wine right in front of them until they're wasted the very first time they draw scum.

At this point I think you just lynch him at whatever point no slamdunk scum is available and/or wait for associations to clear him -not- his AtE. Fortunately, or unfortunately, glass half full or half empty, BuJaber's play has been pretty crimson so he meets the former criteria.

Yeah the AtE isn't doing much for me and I still don't like the majority of that post, but his line about never being scum and not knowing what his angle would be is what is making me second guess this. I don't really want to go down the road of a policy lynch because this game has 1-2 other policy-lynchable players and I'm a firm believer of one policy lynch being enough in a game. So if I were to start town reading verydark, I would be unvoting. Can you remind me why BuJaber is so scummy? Other than the one post, I haven't really seen it.

First of all, he did the self lynch thing as he pointed out, in a previous game as town, so I'd say at best, it's NAI. Second, he overreacts to pressure, it's just new player jitters. And the walls themselves may not have lots of information, but it's similar here. This is just too close to his town game for my liking Day 1. Maybe later he does something that's more scummy, but I tend to give more leeway to people that I've seen act like scummy town in my previous games.

So..
-does that mean he lied when he said he didn't know self voting was an allowable mechanic?
-was his play survivalistic?
-do you have any reason to believe he'd suddenly stop overacting to pressure as scum?
-did he do any scum hunting in that game?
-was his reasoning for reads easier to follow?

[Kmd4390]

I probably won't be able to make a real post today. Going to the Yankees game.

[Kmd4390]

ok, I didn't miss as much as I though. I should be able to get caught up again soon.

[Kmd4390]

So..
-does that mean he lied when he said he didn't know self voting was an allowable mechanic?
-was his play survivalistic?
-do you have any reason to believe he'd suddenly stop overacting to pressure as scum?
-did he do any scum hunting in that game?
-was his reasoning for reads easier to follow?

1.I guess so, didn't think of that one before.
2. Yes.
3. I'm starting to wonder if I'm confusing newbtown with just newb in general, actually. I'll have to think it over, but input from others would be welcome.
4. He did do something similar to scumhunting there, but this ties in to question 5.
5. No, absolutely not.

This does make me rethink my read for sure, all the things that I thought were towntells of his are probably null at best when I consider them in the context of these questions. Maybe he's just really good at emulating his own townplay as scum; he did play like scummy town since until he had an innocent on him most of the previous game was ready to lynch him and there were better players than me in that game.

What game was this? I want to ISO him with a focus on numbers 2 and 5 here.

... ok verydark gave the link already:
I dunno. I see a much heavier focus on scumhunting and reads and I don't see anywhere near the level of survivalistic play that I've seen from him here. If anything, I'm thinking any doubts I had are fading here. I still think verydark is scum and is the best lynch today.

feels like there's dangerously low resistance to both the bujaber and verydark wagons tbh

If you were scum with either player, would you be fighting their lynch hard? I probably wouldn't myself.

To Kmd, The only people I'd give light scum reads to is BuJaber and dave, both for awkward dialogue.

Why not verydark?

also i'm so fuckin tempted right now to wagon verydark again

Yes. Please. His wagon has faded to the point where he's gonna be hard to lynch now because everyone sees him as the easy lynch but he's actual scum. I really need your help with this one.

Still here, and I figure I may as well vote to actually do something.

VOTE: Davesaz OMGUS always wins.

If you are scumreading Dave and BuJaber and BuJaber is close to a lynch, and Dave has no votes...why did you vote Dave over BuJaber?

[Kmd4390]

Mylo, is that verydark game the same one brass brought up? If so, can you show me where I'm wrong on my interpretation of his play and the difference here? If not, can I have a link?

[Kmd4390]

I have issues with Green Grayons' suspicion of BuJaber, mostly that his point one assumes verydark is town and I can't get behind that, but we are so close to deadline that BuJaber is going to be the Lynch so I'm not going crazy over it.

Yeah I’m never considering scum Mylo here

Because he provided a link i asked for?

[Kmd4390]

I have issues with Green Grayons' suspicion of BuJaber, mostly that his point one assumes verydark is town and I can't get behind that, but we are so close to deadline that BuJaber is going to be the Lynch so I'm not going crazy over it.

Yeah I’m never considering scum Mylo here

Because he provided a link i asked for?

I didn’t mean to quote. I thought I had quoted his recent interactions with Dave.

Oh, ok.

[Kmd4390]

like were you not scumreading BuJaber yourself? I feel like you're downplaying the multitude of reasons we all had for voting him. If scum bussed then I think it happened late in the day once the lynch started becoming inevitable. The first four voters or so I'm comfortable locking as town, and said as much here:

I'm not trying to nail a 3p scumteam on D1. I'd currently lynch BuJaber and verydark in that order probably, then hunt for a 3rd in Mylo/Kmd/pops/davesaz depending on flips. If either of the current leading wagons are scum, I don't think there's any bussing in the 1.6 vote count.

KMD indirectly tried to push me off of BuJaber several times and that's where I'd like to start today.

VOTE: kmd

Actually I was trying to understand why you were voting him. It felt weird to me. You seemed sure he was scum but didn't really seem to be able to articulate why. I asked you for better reasoning and couldn't relate. Pretty sure I dropped it after that but maybe im misremembering.

Still, the reason I said Kmd wouldn't live to endgame as scum is because he's 80% of the time the optimal Mason recruit
He's known on site for being a great neighbour

This seemed weird to me at first but there was the game we played together and then someone else said this after that game and a few people in this game are aware of that. And I can think of one other person not in this game who would probably back it too. So maybe it's more true than I realized? But we probably shouldn't discuss the mason recruit.

why would bujaber be a counterwagon to scum VD

This logic only makes sense if BuJaber was hard bussed. If he was a town driven wagon, verydark's alignment isn't even relevant. The only reason the flip has me second guessing verydark is verydark's posting about BuJaber all of Day 1. Doesn't feel like a newb-buddy.

main thing I would like to hear at the moment is if KMD still thinks verydark is scum

Meh. I'm leaning towards no. I think I want to look within you/brass/Mylo. I had Dave on that list but I think I'm trusting Mathdino until I have time to look myself.

I think I see two people who pops could be seen as threatening to.

Don't wanna say who?

[Kmd4390]

I see a discussion on opportunism back on page 33 and I don't really think anyone can be accused of that on Day 1. The only possibility is the last few votes at the height of the verydark wagon if verydark is town, but even that was so early in the day he wasn't about to be lynched so soon. The BuJaber wagon really dominated the day after that. Judge my vote however you see fit, but don't town read me for not being opportunistic. There wouldn't have really been an opening for opportunism.

Verydark, what concerns do you have on gamma? I'm having trouble reading him myself.

Green Crayons, I've used this name on multiple sites over the course of about 18 years and I don't recall ever being referred to as "md", although someone has been calling me just "k" lately which is new. On Dave, I had him as a weak gut scum read early day 1 and never really saw anything to change my opinion. So I'm somewhere between that and trusting mathdinos town read until I have a chance to look closer or something stands out.

Mathdino, I thought we were on the same page regarding north. I see that's not the case. I'm not going to elaborate but I was pretty sure we saw the same thing somewhere so if you were thinking that this is me telling you we apparently saw it opposite ways.

Something smart, I have you as a strong town read for the same reason as Mathdino. Does that make the scum team me/math?

NSG generally believes that "policy lynches are scum garbage". I don't believe she sticks to her guns on the verydark wagon here as scum. Hell, I think she's more policythirsty as town without really knowing it.

The post you quoted sounds more like north was somewhere between pressuring verydark and scum reading him rather than voting for policy.

___________

Vote Mylo

I think this is where I'm most confident.

[Kmd4390]

Ok we saw the same thing, Mathdino.

Something smart, I'm reading them but not really critically in the way I would if I was trying to develop my read on you. Basically I'm not doing anything to sort you because I feel that's already done.

Preview edit:
Green Crayons, "md" wasn't the reason for that mistake. It was the content of the post. I thought he was talking about how early I had such a strong read on verydark.

[Kmd4390]

Green Crayons, I've used this name on multiple sites over the course of about 18 years and I don't recall ever being referred to as "md", although someone has been calling me just "k" lately which is new.

Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me for anyone to refer to you as Md either. Which is why this interaction caught my eye:

Spoiler:

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

Or scum being very very very 'calculating'?

*leaves the building before the boos*

Don't town read me for that. I'd do it as scum too.

Noted

MD is mathdino ftr.. I should probably say dino in this game to avoid confusion.

It looks like you were overly conscious of what BuJaber was posting to the point of thinking he was referring to you. In response, he went along with it, but then realized he hadn't actually referred to you and corrected himself. It's just weird.

ohhhh i didn't know what that was about ok

yeah i could probably lynch KMD for that now that i think about it

Why would I be overly concerned about a scum buddy's read on me?

[Kmd4390]

He had that one bad post Day 1 and then avoided giving scum reads when I asked him like three times. Today he pops in to laugh at green crayons possibly not realizing the number of scum and that's it. I see no effort to scum hunt. His focus seems to be hiding. And it doesn't seem to be a case of just being busy. If that were the case, I'd expect at least some kind of scumhunting when he does post.

[Kmd4390]

I'd rather try to Lynch scum than Lynch for info.

[Kmd4390]

Normally I wouldn't be surprised at being lynched for being wrong but I'm surprised to see Mathdino leading the push after seeing me be so wrong last game..

*Shrug*

[Kmd4390]

Like if any of those posts to BuJaber were scum coaching, why wouldn't it be in the scum PT? And why attack everyone else's votes on him if he was a buddy clearly going g down? That would be much worse scum play than I'm capable of. I just had a bad read which happens plenty.

[Kmd4390]

Like if any of those posts to BuJaber were scum coaching, why wouldn't it be in the scum PT? And why attack everyone else's votes on him if he was a buddy clearly going g down? That would be much worse scum play than I'm capable of. I just had a bad read which happens plenty.

Because scum don't have daytalk?

You know this, you townlocked NSG for it...

So save it for night...

[Kmd4390]

@kmd4390 what are your thoughts on gamma and math?

Scum? Town?

I don't see anything wrong with Gamma specifically, but could go with PoE scum later on. Mathdino I'm pretty convinced is town. I'm always gonna be a little paranoid of him because he's a good player, but I'm pretty sure this is his town game.

dave you do understand that posts like that are exactly what gets you mislynched all the time

Not that it matters, but I don't see how that post could get Dave lynched...

[Kmd4390]

I don't think I've done it but Mathdino knows more of my alts than most people do so he's got plenty to work with. If you do find a game where I did it, let me know but I don't think you will.

[Kmd4390]

kmd should be proactively explaining his play, not forcing his accusers to further justify their accusations.

There isn't any more to explain. It's two simple things that have already been said. One is I was wrong on a read which happens and a few people here just saw it happen with me over and over again in a game. The second is that I'm simply better scum than to blatantly connect myself to a buddy being wagoned on Day 1 like that. Sure, you can't know the second one for sure but go ahead and check my scum games like Mathdino is doing. I don't coach scumbuddies while town reading them but also being open to them being scum but never vote them and push the most viable opposing option. That's guaranteed to get called out the next day as we're all seeing right now. Can you be more specific on why Mylo looks town to you? Is it really just pre flop associative and you're assuming he's town because you've decided I'm scum or is there something in his play I'm missing?

[Kmd4390]

Won't be able to catch up today or tomorrow. 16 hour work days.

[Kmd4390]

Skimmed.

I'm not counterclaiming Dave. Will read for real at some point

[Kmd4390]

How about mylo

[Kmd4390]

I'm assuming you stopped thinking that last page.

[Kmd4390]

I think Green Crayons is town. Otherwise, no one on the Dave wagon is a strong town read for me.

[Kmd4390]

I think you're right that both scum are there. The only way that's wrong is of verydark bussed BuJaber or you have me pocketed and I don't think either is likely.

[Kmd4390]

I can definitely see GuiltyLion being scum. I mean, scum on the Dave wagon only leaves us Green Crayons/ Guiltylion/brass/gamma/Mylo. I think Mylo is one scum. The last has to be in the other four unless they stayed off of Dave. Eventually, you have to consider Guiltylion. You say brass is town. I say Green Crayons is town. I dunno, maybe it's just gamma. But either way, I think Mylo is today's best Lynch.

Preview edit: pretty much yeah

[Kmd4390]

Maybe

[Kmd4390]

Gamma do you agree with the idea both scum were on the Dave wagon?

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote Gamma

[Kmd4390]

I'm fine to take a lynch here though, at this point I'm probably more of a liability to town than an asset.

This kind of post is why I want to Lynch gamma before Mylo now

[Kmd4390]

Vote Gamma

[Kmd4390]

Hmm.

Now the question is whether gamma believed that was hammer or not.

Mylos first post after my vote felt fake but everything after that feels town.

Ugh.

Mathdino, help

[Kmd4390]

It's actually pretty common...

[Kmd4390]

That's why I'm not sure if gamma bought it or not...

[Kmd4390]

Meh

I'm gonna steal your hammer

Unvote, Vote Mylo

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

Vote count ruined it that time.

I want to know what Mathdino thinks about recent events.

[Kmd4390]

Sweet. I don't get many hammers.

Vote Gamma

[Kmd4390]

I'm here. Been busy at work. Knee jerk reaction is I think it's Guiltylion and Brass. Mylo said some things before the Lynch that just sounded so town but at the same time he was the counterwagon and it's possible, maybe even likely, that scum are the reason gamma was lynched over Mylo so if Mylo is scum I'd like to look back at who made that happen. I'm not really sure why green crayons' name keeps coming up.

I dunno. Right now, my mathdino-style Lynch order is probably:
Guiltylion -> brass -> Mylo -> green crayons

I really think scum is in those first three names though. Green Crayons only lands there by PoE.

[Kmd4390]

KMD if you think scum caused the Gamma mislynch then I should not be first in your lynch order

I only think that if Mylo is scum.

[Kmd4390]

I kind of think Mylo is town but I also don't see him getting through this game without being lynched so I'm not motivated to argue about it.

[Kmd4390]

I think it's Guiltylion and Brass. Mylo probably would be my third choice though...

*Shrug*

[Kmd4390]

...but it's just not brass
I don't understand your read there at all

It's basically PoE and his votes feeling opportunistic. Why do you have him as town? You don't see him as a busser? And why is Guiltylion not an option today? Or am I misreading that?

[Kmd4390]

Vote Guiltylion

[Kmd4390]

I still want to Lynch on the Dave wagon. There's no way that was all town and it's our best chance to not run up a mason.

I think Green Crayons is town.

I've been thinking more and more Mylo is town.

Brass probably won't get lynched.

I can definitely see GuiltyLion bussing BuJaber. He just makes the most sense right now.

[Kmd4390]

He's got the second most posts of any living player. Being away for like 40 hours doesn't mean he's inactive.

[Kmd4390]

Mylo, Mason's only get one recruit. That was already used on Dave.

Why don't you think Guiltylion would hard bus?

[Kmd4390]

If the choices are green crayons or Mylo I'd rather do Mylo.

[Kmd4390]

Are you still narrowing it down to GC or mylo for today's lynch?

Guiltylion also has two votes...

[Kmd4390]

actually kmd i'm starting to come around

can we agree that if GL is scum it's probably GL/verydark?

verydark willingness to lynch either GC or mylo (and not seeming to care which)

think about that scum strategy though

GL opens with light suspicion on verydark

and derails the entire verydark wagon by bussing the shit out of bujaber instead, "clearing" verydark by VCA

Umm. If Guiltylion flips scum, I could probably be convinced there's a chance verydark is also scum. He'd have to be coached to bus like that. That's basically why I backed off of him. If Guiltylion is scum, it opens up that possibility. I can't say I'd lean that way though.

[Kmd4390]

I feel like this game would be a lot less interesting without him, but he's basically controlling people's votes (mine included briefly until he pulled that unvote stunt earlier...) Mylo will basically jump as high as he tells him. Several others have town leaned him based off his meta and rationalize his actions in this game based off that.

I'm not big on the whole "drunk with power" dynamic.

I doubt this will gain any traction, and no...I guess I still don't understand what bussing is still. But since no one has really voted Mathdino in this game, this would be the opposite of bussing, yes?

VOTE: Mathdino

If you're town, that's paranoia talking. You're worried that if we're all wrong on just this one read, town has no chance to win because Mathdino is a strong player who everyone is writing off as town. This isn't the time to give in to those fears. We're town reading him because, well, he's playing how he does as town. If we're wrong, we'll deal with that later.

[Kmd4390]

There's also the fact that he's been bleeding town nonstop today, so.

Exactly

[Kmd4390]

Got prodded. Was v/la over the weekend. Going to bed. Will try to catch up later.

[Kmd4390]

I didn't get to this today. Will try again tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

A couple things from page 62:
-mathdino beat me to what I was going to say about Guiltylions self meta. I'd be surprised if he rolled scum here and decided to play exactly to his scum meta. If there was ever a time to give something like a hard bus a chance, this was it.
-I saw massclaim tomorrow mentioned. I just want to say I'm against it.
-I keep seeing the Guiltylion case simplified to "he's good at scum so he must be scum". It's not that simple. It's the fact that of those on the Dave wagon, he's the person who we seem to agree can play the way he's played as scum. People are townreading brass for whatever reason. I don't really see why green crayons makes sense as scum on that wagon. And Mylo just doesn't seem capable of faking the few posts that sounded town. I feel like at least one of brass/Guiltylion has to be scum.

[Kmd4390]

People are townreading brass for whatever reason. I don't really see why green crayons makes sense as scum on that wagon. And Mylo just doesn't seem capable of faking the few posts that sounded town. I feel like at least one of brass/Guiltylion has to be scum.

Do you have more meat for those bones of your brass suspicions?

I wish I did, but not really other than some of his votes feeling opportunistic.

[Kmd4390]

Guys, we have less than 48 hours! And we a no lynch here wouldn't be pretty at all.

Then put Guiltylion at L-1

[Kmd4390]

I've made like 18 posts but backspaced them here, I just don't know what to say.

Give us what you backspaced. Be an open book.

[Kmd4390]

Ank, see that's kind of it though. His posts come off disinterested, sure. But the votes seem more excited to get someone lynched. They always seem to come immediately after someone else votes for that person. It doesn't read...bored...like his posts do.

[Kmd4390]

Mathdino, I've never really been one to read games I'm not in.

Guiltylion, if you are lynched, I'm interested in looking at brass next regardless of your flip.

[Kmd4390]

Should we just Lynch brass?

[Kmd4390]

I mean it doesn't lock us into anything but I can see how it would probably go that way if we see a town flip.

Preview edit: I'm not personally scum reading anyone in that last four. I don't want to open up that discussion either.

Preview edit again: I'd pick Mylo too. Why wouldn't you pick yourself?

[Kmd4390]

the offdavers should really not be talking about each other ever

Fully agree.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah I think at this point it's gonna be green crayons unless brass gets last minute support. I can switch there if I have to.

[Kmd4390]

If you're town, I can see it as frustration not being able to lynch you, especially if green crayons is also scum.

Problem is, there isn't another scenario I can't see. He could be scum with you using Mathdino as an excuse to quiet down and let green crayons be mislynched.

He can be town and everything he says is just how he feels about the green crayons wagon being shit.

So basically, no. I can't get anything out of the unvote.

[Kmd4390]

Are Guiltylion and Brass really not options to you?

[Kmd4390]

GL suspicions comes down to "he's really good at scum so he bussed Bu-scum" and the response is "nuh-uhn." I'll vote GL over Brass if mylo does flip town but I'm not inclined to vote mylo over GL on that alone.

So my reply to that did nothing for you? You still think that's my case?

[Kmd4390]

-I keep seeing the Guiltylion case simplified to "he's good at scum so he must be scum".

It's not that simple. It's the fact that of those on the Dave wagon, he's the person who we seem to agree can play the way he's played as scum

. People are townreading brass for whatever reason. I don't really see why green crayons makes sense as scum on that wagon. And Mylo just doesn't seem capable of faking the few posts that sounded town. I feel like at least one of brass/Guiltylion has to be scum.

So it's not "GL is so good at scum he would have bussed Bu-scum," but "GL is known to bus partners and thus he bussed Bu-scum."

I don't see too terribly much daylight between those two positions.

It also assumes, without a basis to do so, that GL-scum was busing Bu rather than GL-town correctly found Bu to be suspicious. In other words, I don't see how you could ever see a GL-town catching scum as looking like GL-town.

He's known to bus? That's news to me and not what I said...

Look. Either scum avoided the Dave wagon, you're scum, or there are two scum in Mylo/brass/Guiltylion. That's the most important thing and you seem to be ignoring it. If you are town, you should have an even easier time seeing that than me.

Now with that in mind...you start to look at who is capable of playing the way they've played as scum and see if you can eliminate anyone. I have seen a few posts from Mylo that I don't think he can fake. I can't eliminate Guiltylion. I definitely can see him bussing BuJaber in this game considering the playerlist. It's not as simple as "Guiltylion voted BuJaber so he was bussing". There is a process that leads to that thought but you are stuck on the conclusion and saying it makes no sense without listening to the logic behind it first.