Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[Oxy]

I agree 100%. Two ducks is

two

one too many.
VOTE: the worst

[Oxy]

I'm thinking there's at least one scum in {ofrhz, Sunshine13} unless one of them gets an avatar

I second this!

[Oxy]

This is not the same Ruru that was repeating "I am town." in scum pt =)

[Oxy]

I, too, am getting a townvibe from Sunshine.

Ofrhz, as well, but to a lesser extent. Similar quick jump from playful -> serious as in last game's opening.

Does anyone know a spicy strat for this setup?

Because if one exists, Mathdino is probably scum.

p.edit nm on that last part, lol.

[Oxy]

It turned out that the first thing I was town reading Sunshine13 for is NAI.

Luckily, I feel more confident in my new reason for town reading him. =)

[Oxy]

I would love to hear your plan, Dino =)

[Oxy]

I like your style =)

If you don't pick inno child, the wifom is too obvious, so I think you should consider trading vig for inno child.

Otherwise you have to argue that some other possible maf team didn't choose an IC.

You don't get the vig shot, but it would be easier for you to conf!town yourself claiming that you know vigs hurt town more often than scum.

[Oxy]

VOTE: Mohab500

[Oxy]

Lol i just ppayed anime game

thdn go clas

lolol i rub u so fust

vote ruru

I should b3 studying

wo i can finish thenl look at this game, no lol fuk anim bitc ass

Lol wair ill finish my hentai shit

and studying

then unvote cuz i forgot snd look at the game and effort and shit

Lol just

unvote

Too bad I wasn't around, also fuck those days, there was no hentai so this shit doesn't concern me

I am 14 btw.

doesn't add up ;P

[Oxy]

Are you making a sarcastic remark about my usage of words in the English languages, thus deducing that I am indeed 14?

No, I was saying that it is very unlikely that a 14 year old shit posting on a mafia forum would be going on and on about needing to study and go to class.

Thus, you probably aren't really 14.

It was a joke that also happened to be true.

@mathdino Okay, but later. I'm planting my garden today.

@pinturicchio I'm just trying to be agreeable and make friends =)

[Oxy]

the joke being, "haha, teenagers don't like school"

[Oxy]

Lists in no particular order
Town reads: {The Worst, Sunshine13, Pinturicchio, Ruru}
Lynch pool: {Draynth, UglyDuck, Skitter30, Scioness Sajj}

I need a little bit more from Ofrhz to confirm my town lean.

[Oxy]

oops forgot mohab in that lynch pool lyst

[Oxy]

@mathdino
You can conduct.

You just can't be in the orchestra, yet.

p.edit It's poe. It is (player list) - (town reads) - (people I don't want to lynch D1 for reasons)

Pin is doing a couple of things that would add up to a huge wifom play when considered in the context of the game a bunch of us just finished.

That's possible, but I don't think it's probable.

[Oxy]

Seeing as oxycodone is actually a drug I can see him being Dr Evil's latest invention.

Oxy -

prefix

, sharp, pointed, acute

Your earlier posts make little sense to me =/

[Oxy]

Are you saying that Mathdino is at risk of being converted by the cult faction?

[Oxy]

I don't want to keep looking these things up in star wars fandom wiki's

Google is going to start serving me weird ads >.<

[Oxy]

You ain't seen nothing yet
Have you read the game? I'd say we're solidly out of RVS

I have not, reading now

I'm sad that you chose not to give us your thoughts after reading. =(

[Oxy]

Oxy why haven't you caught a scum yet?

It took me something like 1800 posts to catch scum last game.

I'll get there!

[Oxy]

@Sajj

I haven't read your post yet, but your new avatar is very pretty!

Is it the same artist? =)

[Oxy]

lolol

very nice, dino!

[Oxy]

@ruru

Dino could be scum, but I don't think that's the read that exposes him. Dinosaurs have hearts, too. =(

[Oxy]

I'm town reading 280 strongly

Pretty decent shot scum!dino pushes that wagon on both town!Sajj and scum!Sajj

I've heard that 1v1'ing Sajj is a quick road to an unproductive town.

[Oxy]

Who needs scum reads, amirite?

Just call active people town and use poe as an excuse to reintroduce Lynch all Lurkers as policy.~~~

[Oxy]

this read is actually on point and is the same read that i get reading this post

that's about it though

i don't see many players in this game that i would expect to make themselves obvious as scum on D1 so i'm primarily working off PoE here

Is there a specific part to 81 that you read as fake?

Because I'm super not seeing it.

[Oxy]

@Mathdino
Your "irrelevant sidenote" is actually a response to a question Sunshine had asked him directly.

I read this whole post is personality indicative of the worst - He's going to be welcoming, friendly, and overly helpful to new members of this site regardless of alignment.

Certainly, you have more experience with The Worst's game than I do, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Oxy]

If you're scum, I will slam that book shut on your tiny little bill so fast...

[Oxy]

truuuuuuue

[Oxy]

Why on sunshine?

I was initially reading his opening as probably not coming from newb!scum, but then I decided that read was nai because Sunshine is not new to mafia.

[Oxy]

- uhhhh
so are you trying to argue that anything town-indicative for you is NAI because scum-you would be trying to fake town-you
i get the feeling that pursuing this line of discussion is going to barrel us both down WIFOM city

I think she's saying that scum!mathdino would have used that opening to get an excuse to make an early town read on skitter and then begin pocketing her.

[Oxy]

- uhhhh
so are you trying to argue that anything town-indicative for you is NAI because scum-you would be trying to fake town-you
i get the feeling that pursuing this line of discussion is going to barrel us both down WIFOM city

I think she's saying that scum!mathdino would have used that opening to get an excuse to make an early town read on skitter and then begin pocketing her.

yeah that's basically exactly what I think scum!math would be doing there.

For the record, I don't think it makes it NAI. Knowing something is a test is not the only prerequisite to passing.

[Oxy]

gonna need help reading ofrhz (i have also been spelling his name wrong the whole time fucking lol) from 1859ers

He is showing a very different mindset to D1 of 1859.

However, D2 Ofrhz was a clear shift in mindset, and that shift was in the direction of what we're seeing here.

More data needed.

[Oxy]

Is this talking about me or talking about math?

I don't think that your response to his entrance is NAI for you.

Thus, I don't think that his understanding the wifom around that entrance necessitates him being scum.

[Oxy]

What I'm kinda wondering is if I'm the person town!math decides to prioritize sorting here though.

He was. He said he was a page or so back.

The reason he gave for prioritizing you was really pro town

Actually, I remember thinking it was pro town moments after I voted The Worst.

I didn't know about all this meta stuff at that point,

so I felt low key bad because I could have voted you just as easily and helped him sort you.

[Oxy]

TBH,

Mathdino is obv!town

And it's because he's holding back.

Strongest town read outside of Ruru

[Oxy]

VOTE: oxy

content or tunnel

By end of night - I'm concentrating elsewhere atm

[Oxy]

gonna need help reading ofrhz (i have also been spelling his name wrong the whole time fucking lol) from 1859ers

i'm pretty sold by sunshine's argument in a vacuum

but sunshine obviously lacks the experience that 5 other players have with him

also i don't really feel like defending sunshine against 1 or 2 people who are effectively nullreading him

tl;dr the vast majority of his ISO would be very difficult for scum to fake, the nuance in the posts is incredible (even when i don't agree with the conclusions)
the last post is the nail in the... coffin...? of that townread

Edit: you're probably not the one i'd be trying to pocket, skitter. not after MKUltra

note: I'm in kind of a weird place in terms of what pages I've read and what I haven't. I'll be all caught up by tonight.

Math: Can you clarify for me what you meant by the bold? Which argument were you referring to?

[Oxy]

Thanks, Math. You guys are having this discussion too early. I'm working my way through, and you'll have more to work with by the end of the night. I won't sleep until I've caught up, responded to whatever, and added to the game.

Like he was even a PR last game and still LAMISTed like every other post

FTR, this was on purpose because past!Oxy wanted to be active and didn't want to obv!town so much that he would get nk'd. Past!Oxy was an idiot.

[Oxy]

Past!Oxy had a terrible game.

[Oxy]

TBH,

Mathdino is obv!town

And it's because he's holding back.

Strongest town read outside of Ruru

Hm?

---

The theory is this:
On a personality level:
Mathdino plays to win.
Mathdino is cognizant of, and confident in, his own abilities to a great extent.
Mathdino is invested in growing both the player base, and the level of play on this site.

On a meta level: People expect Mathdino to charge into a game as town and aggressively attempt to solve it. This could be by mechanical means, scum hunting and poe, or a mixture of both.

Thus: As scum, Mathdino puts on the show people expect from him, especially in an environment like this where a) he rightly assumes others will overestimate his skills, and b) faking reads would be easy for him considering his understanding of newb!town tells and the composition of this game.

As town, Mathdino assumes that his reads and actions have

at least

as much impact as they actually have. In his eyes, a lot of reads in the game are affected by what says, which in turn makes the slots those reads come from more difficult to read.

As town, Mathdino feels he is more able to both achieve his win con and foster growth at the same time. This means that, as town, he would be less likely to disregard the fun of a player when determining his next course of action. It means sitting back to the extent that he is capable of and letting other people give reads and make pushes.

Basically, it's saying things like "I don't want to just come into your game and say lynch the IC on D1" and "I didn't push Sajj in part because I felt bad" rather than keeping his foot on the gas.

[Oxy]

Okay, now that I've caught up to where I was when I posted my Dino read last night, going to start working through the stuff up until now.

Doing a deeper dive than in previous games, so this will be a slow process, but no sleep til it's done.

[Oxy]

Pretty sure scum!you never starts a thing with dino here.

Ah-ha! So you do trust in Dino being town himself here. Otherwise, why wouldn't scum.ruru try to distance herself from her partner?

Yo! I saw this too! Cog dis much, skitter?

[Oxy]

Yeah but since he's already started the game by prioritizing me, scum!math has to say that's what town!him would do, so the fact that he says that's what he would do doesn't mean much.

ie: idk if I believe him saying that town!math prioritizes sorting me in the playerlist.

I don't know if he does or not, but his reason for prioritizing you was pro town. Thus, I think that unless you can argue that someone else would have been a more pro-town player for Mathdino to sort, you have to call his opening either NAI or town-indicative. I would lean towards NAI.

p.edit Yeah, you're probably right about the cog dis thing, Mathdino

[Oxy]

"you're not obvtown yet even though you're usually obvtown as town"
is a valid reason for voting someone IMO

it's actually currently the case being used against me, haha

would lynch: Draynth, UglyDuck, ofrhz

I could see this. He's kind of been buddy af to Ruru

And he was asking biting questions of everyone during D1 1859

[Oxy]

^about Ofrhz, sorry for ambiguity

[Oxy]

In post 401, Draynth wrote:
TheWorst - Seems to be trying super hard to be friendly, could be a playstyle thing but I've never played with TW before so I have no idea. Either way I agree with Math's reasoning for scumreading this slot


I don't get why you're voting here if you think it could be a playstyle thing.

Don't get why you're sheeping math either

He town reads mathdino.
He agrees with the reasoning.
What is not to get?

[Oxy]

You tried pulling something like this in MKUltra when I scumread you there too.

Like you're agreeing with me and saying you get where I'm coming but at the same time downplaying what I'm saying. Also you're trying to say that town!math would do the exact same thing here.

It's weird to tell me that you agree with me but that you don't think the point I'm making is worth responding to.

This gave me flashbacks. This feels a lot like 1859. Skitter comes into a game with a suspect, and that suspicion just kind of taints that person for them for the entire game.

[Oxy]

Like you're townreading him for it and pushing a pl on someone you're townreading just cuz they're garbage-posting is stupid.

I'm pretty sure mathdino was town reading mohab500 by this point, and not actively pushing a policy lynch??

[Oxy]

@Mathdino
Your "irrelevant sidenote" is actually a response to a question Sunshine had asked him directly.

I read this whole post is personality indicative of the worst - He's going to be welcoming, friendly, and overly helpful to new members of this site regardless of alignment.

Certainly, you have more experience with The Worst's game than I do, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

gross but also pretty towny

why's it gross?
why's it towny?

gross bcause I find this way of writing from him to be faked and forced. calculated and unnatural, it was bothering me last game.
towny becuase that's how i expect town oxy to be writing it's his first post in this game that actully pinged me.

These types of posts have a certain sound in my head. I think this may have been the first one this game. It isn't going to be an AI thing for me, though.

This post from sajj strikes me as Sajj, for whatever that's worth. lolol

[Oxy]

VOTE: Scioness

find scum or die

I take everything back. Your dino avatar is super serious and intimidating in the context of posts like these, and the hat does little to mitigate this.

[Oxy]

It's also an attempt to find out if it's purely a playstyle thing and try interact with TW.

What. What sort of interactions were you looking to elicit that would allow you to sort his helpfulness as either playstyle indicative or alignment indicative?

[Oxy]

VOTE: oxy

content or tunnel

By end of night - I'm concentrating elsewhere atm

alright, I need more in depth about obv!town math.
and anything on ofrhz and mohab

Ofrhz is a scum read for me at the moment.
Last game he was asking everyone, including his town reads, pointed questions that implied that Ofrhz had been reading them critically.

Here I see a bunch of fluff while content goes by that I think he would have jumped on last game.

Mohab seems like the type of person who would say, "I want to be lynched. I dare you to do it." as scum.

But I could sheep math on this read if we don't get more content.

[Oxy]

This is super overexplained for no reason.

I don't like that he suggests ruru should be going after lurkers.

This is super overexplained, but for a good reason. Before I wrote this overexplained post in purple, I gave a shorter answer, which wasn't what Sunshine wanted, so I talked off the wall to give him what he wanted. In response, Sunshine said that I answered his question because of this purple post.

...Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

eh, I mean

he gave you additional questions so you could answers more specificly but you still overexplained and I see a lot of words but one sentance content.

It felt to me like Ofrhz was being passive aggressive; "Oh, so it's a thorough answer you want, is it?"

But here he is saying that he answered it earnestly. Yikes.

Also, agree with Sajj

[Oxy]

Think about it: Scum wanting to appear daring and not afraid of getting lynched.. or Ton who decided it was a good idea to get mislynched on D1 and possibly get another Townie miclynched on D2?

Ruru typed "I am town." and "There is no wrong way to be town." into her scum PT repeatedly last game.

If she is pulling off this playstyle right now,

then color me impressed.

[Oxy]

@Oxy-
can you explain your read on Sunshine?

You misread that post by me. Skitter asked me why I had a town read on Sunshine at the time of my initial read.

I explained my initial read, and then mentioned that I had concluded that reasoning to be NAI.

I am still town reading Sunshine.

[Oxy]

Draynth - Not a lot to go off of, but reads seem OK. I mean I disagree with his top two pushes, but I think for anyone to be pushing Math/TW right now I would of been granting some TP to because there has to be like a 0% chance they get lynched today.


Middle People

Skitter - Lots of content once they started and they obviously are reading along intently and putting effort into pulling quotes and and explanations and etc. Some of the quotes though, have explanations that seems a little too specific to be something to actually care about on D1. Most recent example being calling Math skum because of a similarity to play style in MkUltra. Whatever, if I had to choose outside of null, def would pick Town, but null it is.

Scioness - Trying to make some cases on some people for some kind of NAI reasons (IMO). However, as I am heavily TR on the worst right now, I feel like skum would be the first to jump off the L2 TW wagon early Day 1 for the credit (assuming I am right about Town!TW). Summary: Cases being made are skummy, actions seem more on the towny side of things.

I'm calling this slot town based on this quote alone. Fight me.

[Oxy]

OK after completely catching up, here is my generalized reads list so that I do not take up 2 pages of space. If you have a question, or want more input on a specific read, just ask. If I posted all my notes it would of taken up until like page 25

I'm calling this slot scum based on this quote alone. Fight me.

Touche, but like those three reads are quite good. They have "nuance" as the kids these days say.

For example: reading scioness scum by her cases and town by her actions is kind of a perfect read for 1859 sajj

[Oxy]

I was going to figure out my vote when I finish catching up. Is there a pressing reason for me to change?

Also, Pin, Didn't we learn last game that LAMIST is not a scum tell?

[Oxy]

You're misreading him, Ofrhz. He understands that Sajj was not the person to hop off.

[Oxy]

In post 512, UglyDuck wrote:
Draynth - Not a lot to go off of, but reads seem OK. I mean I disagree with his top two pushes, but I think for anyone to be pushing Math/TW right now I would of been granting some TP to because there has to be like a 0% chance they get lynched today.

Er... your two scumreads are in his townreads. And also while you have some overlapping reads with Draynth, your reasons for those reads are different (e.g. Draynth's read on skitter was null bc he literally just skipped skitter's posts, whereas you have a nullread on skitter for a very different reason). What there anything else about his reads that pinged you as town?

This is scummy by Ofrhz.

[Oxy]

I was going to figure out my vote when I finish catching up. Is there a pressing reason for me to change?

Also, Pin, Didn't we learn last game that LAMIST is not a scum tell?

My own mafia theory is that nothing is a town or scum tell without context, but LAMIST can perfectly be a scum tell depending on who, when and how is being LAMIST (this could be aplied to anything). If you don't know the suspect's meta, then analyze "when" and "how"; if you know his/her meta, then you have "who" too.

So you have meta of him being lamist as scum, or not lamist as town, or both?

[Oxy]

@Oxy go read post 591 from Open 714 Tit for Tat and you'll understand the "when" and "how". See the similarities? If you do, ask me for the "who" after

So you're saying he's doing a thing that you did once as scum?

[Oxy]

Yeah I see the similarities. I didn't read the entire post, but I see the similarities in the opening.

How is it relevant?

[Oxy]

I'm going to change my avatar. Was fun being upside down while it lasted

What happened to this excellent idea?

[Oxy]

Well, this overwhelmed newb!scum is pulling it off better than you did, for sure.

You could be right, but I think we have better choices right now. I'm feeling Ofrhz atm. I'm a constant 130 pages behind current posting.

[Oxy]

You told me that you agree with my suspicions wrt the mohab wagon and than preceeded to ask me why I'm questioning it. It's disingenuous. Either I have a point and I should be pursuing it, or I don't have a point and I shouldn't be questioning it and you don't have to bother responding to me.

You completely misread him.

He's not dismissing it. This is the conversation so far:

Skitter30: Mathdino, I think Mohab is lynch bait! What do you think about that?
Skitter30: Mathdino, I think Mohab is lynch bait! What do you think about that?
Mathdino: (Having just said he found Mohab's posts townie) I agree, that's why we're not pushing on Mohab. What do you want me to address (kind of snippy, probably could have avoided this but nbd)?
Skitter30: You're saying you agree and dismissing it!
Mathdino:I agree which is why we are taking the inaction towards that slot that we are. I'm not dismissing you. There isn't a fight about this happening right now.

[Oxy]

In post 489, Draynth wrote:
It's nice and early and I wanted to move my vote off RVS, why not?
It's also an attempt to find out if it's purely a playstyle thing and try interact with TW.


OK, that's fair.

what?

[Oxy]

I like 501

Again, what?
It's mostly IIoA
And a lot of the analysis is bleh or faulty conclusions (e.g., that I had retracted sunshine read)

[Oxy]

I'd like to be caught up before this day ends, but I get that I'm taking my sweet time and ya'll are in a rush.

I'm cool with a mohab vig shot and an ofrhz lynch

VOTE: Ofrhz

I'll keep working my way up to the front of the thread.

[Oxy]

This post from sajj strikes me as

Town,

for whatever that's worth. lolol

EBWOP

[Oxy]

wtf is the me getting bussed theory everyone keeps mentioning?

Welcome to the scumteam. It consists of me, you, and TW.

OK this is probably not the scumteam

Edit: I have a couple theories that would make you town and you're a pretty risky potential mislynch

Fuck that noise
Town!Ofrhz does not claim scum on post 724. I don't care how much of a joke, sarcasm, whatever

claimed scum is scum is scum is scum is scum

[Oxy]

Fuck no it isn't a policy lynch. Ofrhz is simply scum.

[Oxy]

Ofrhz worth policy lynching now >_<

And this is scum too.

UglyDuck is town.

[Oxy]

wtf is the me getting bussed theory everyone keeps mentioning?

Welcome to the scumteam. It consists of me, you, and TW.

wtf is the me getting bussed theory everyone keeps mentioning?

Welcome to the scumteam. It consists of me, you, and TW.

wtf is the me getting bussed theory everyone keeps mentioning?

Welcome to the scumteam. It consists of me, you, and TW.

This is why. A million other reasons, too. But this is enough.

[Oxy]

When people are actually actively scumreading you dont claim scum bruh

Yell at him in your PT

[Oxy]

I was explaining to UD the bussing theory

But yeah I kinda get that tbh

lmao whoops vote me

I'll even self hammer

THIS ALSO DOES NOT COME FROM TOWN

[Oxy]

Everyone needs to stop asking to be lynched this game what the fuck is wrong with guys

Does anyone wanna just compromise and lollynch Draynth

No WTF

Kill this thing with fire

[Oxy]

Hey, did you know that through post 626 The worst has only addressed Ofrhz directly 4 times?

Two of those times were doing RVS, one was Fluff, and the final one was to accuse him of being scum.

[Oxy]

Ofrhz has talked about or spoken directly to The Worst 6 times. This is more than his interactions with Pin and Draynth, and equal to his interactions with Mohab and UglyDuck. Everyone else he has interacted with more. And all of those players are lower activity.

(this is still all through 626, which is as far as I have gotten)

p.edit I'm including that. I'm spreadsheeting the hell out of this game. That's why I'm so behind.

[Oxy]

You speak about him more often (6 times) but compare that to Ruru 12 directly, 3 about, Scioness 6/11, Mathdino 28/19, and sunshine 9/4

[Oxy]

Now lynch this

[Oxy]

You're both scum. This is just the icing on the cake. You're both just obv!scum

[Oxy]

Nah, I'm going back to catchup

[Oxy]

Actually, more catchup in the morning. I'm sleepy.

[Oxy]

I'll write up a big old thing tomorrow about why i find the worst scummy independent of all of this associations stuff

But the basic gist of it is this:

The worst is independently scummy
Ofrhz is independently scummy
The worst talks to everyone who is around as if it is compulsory.
The worst has only directly spoken to Ofrhz 4 times through post 626 (where I stopped)
2 were in rvs stage and were fluff
1 was outside rvs stage and was fluff
and the other was a j'accuse post
24,33,285,624
This is not town!worst interacting with town!ofrhz.

[Oxy]

^ I did ask you, a townlean of mine, a question in 501

Otherwise that's kinda valid to point out, but really I'm having trouble keeping track of everything and keep having to ask people for their goddamn reads.

You got through Oxy vs Sajj last game - when you were TOWN. You waded through the walls, asked good questions, and came away reading it tvt. Why is this game causing you so much more trouble? And why are you so lackadaisical about figuring it out?

[Oxy]

In post 649, ofrhz wrote:
@Pin, I don't want to fight you but ???

There's a pretty useful tool called "asking", you both should use it if you don't see what I'm seeing. There's a chance that I won't answer, but hey, at least you could try!

I remember a game where ofrhz used to ask questions regularly.

[Oxy]

whew tensions are running high

~ some lighthearted fluff to break the tension ~

<SNIP>
which is about as ai as

whether or not he smells like fucking fish

.

fwiw, I don't think I smell like fish

Are you a passive observer or are you playing in this game?

At this point there are a bunch of serious conversations and spicy reads/accusations being thrown around and explored.

And you decide to shitpost? Where is the game solve you had last game?

p.edit Pin, you're my next deep dive. The worst also ignored you this game. He spoke to you directly two times and about you once through post 626 (where i stopped recording stuff) posts 235, 381, and 209. 2 fluff posts and him asking me why I town read you.

[Oxy]

The Worst Directly speaking to people through post 626
Mathdino: 28
Ruru: 12
Sunshine:9
Oxy: 8
Skitter30:7
Scioness Sajj: 6
Ofrhz:4
UglyDuck:3 <--low post number
Pinturicchio:2 <-had more than twice as many posts as uglyDuck as of 626
Draynth:1 <--low post number
Mohab500: <-- more posts, but all at once, and little content.

[Oxy]

Direct Communication Sums (pinturicchio talking to people up to 626.
AP 3
Mathdino 5
The Worst 1
Draynth 0
Sunshine13 0
UglyDuck 2
Mohab500 1
Oxy 2
Skitter30 1

Scioness Sajj 0
Ofrhz 0
Ruru 0

[Oxy]

You avoided them too (but not much data at this point, so i'm not making this argument atm. Just giving you your data because you asked.

[Oxy]

Bro. I did my work. The worst has been scummy this game: I saw it, math saw it, others saw it.
Ofrhz has been scummy this game - again, a bunch of people saw it.

The associations are circumstantial evidence that bolsters the cases people are already making against them

And the associations with you are my good tip for tomorrow.

This is not me going down some statistical rabbit hole, and basing my reads on nothing else.

[Oxy]

I don't think that, I'm sure of that. Read the Scum PT from Newbie 1859 and look how ruru feels at being scum with Dino being town

I agree 100%.

Ruru can only be scum in a world where mathdino is also scum.

[Oxy]

Yeah that's kinda weird lol

Also what's IIOA?

Also why did Oxy choose to hard tunnel you (in terms of saying who he wants to lynch) if both you and Ofhrz are scum; why isn't he equally as accountable

My vote is on Ofrhz? And I have been calling to lynch him now, first, before the worst????

[Oxy]

i also hate how y'all are forcing people to read 1859

guess it can't be helped

i'll catch up later

When you do, vote ofrhz

[Oxy]

Let's play a game called "ofrhz is town"; who's the scum pushing the wagon?

The only winning move is
not to play.

[Oxy]

Let's play a game called "ofrhz is town"; who's the scum pushing the wagon?

The only winning move is
not to play.

Could you repeat that for me, over? I didn't catch what you meant, over

Is that also from War Games?
I haven't seen it in forever.

[Oxy]

Let's not play a game where obv!scum who then claims scum is assumed not scum.

[Oxy]

the wagon on ofrhz is me, uglyduck, mathdino.

If scum is pushing this wagon, it's mathdino + ruru + x

But it's not. Both of them are obv!town

and like, ud isn't the impetus behind anything.

[Oxy]

@mathdino You shouldn't second guess sheeping a scum read on Ofrhz because he said he would self hammer.

[Oxy]

I could be convinced to lynch The Worst first
but it isn't my preference.

[Oxy]

i'm so cute now

Oops - The worst spoke directly to you 8 times by post 626

[Oxy]

i'm so cute now

Oops - The worst spoke directly to you 8 times by post 626

This was directed at AP - ofrhz quote was random.

[Oxy]

here are some of the posts that I think are more likely to come from scum!ofrhz than town!ofrhz.

Spoiler:

Almost all the reads seemed super generic / possibly faked

This makes sense.

This same reasoning is making me doubt my townread of Scioness. I don’t really see an issue with her rvs vote, but her reads were kinda vague even if I agreed with most of them.

"you're not obvtown yet even though you're usually obvtown as town"
is a valid reason for voting someone IMO

Ok gonna try harder to newb town

- I see Oxy has toned down the LAMIST the game. town++ lmao

Why do you find this town-indicative for him?

Trying to not do things that would get him hard-tunneled for the wrong reasons is pro town. His playstyle has definitely changed, and it

could

be scum looking to not stick out as much, but this change is for the better

Yeah I think you guys have a point, but Oxy toned down his LAMIST in D2 of 1859. So I don't tthink scum!Oxy is more likely than town!Oxy to tone down LAMIST. I was more thinking from the angle of him not being LAMIST-y helps people form better reads, which is pro-town given how much town was dragged down by that in 1859.

Draynth

- Not a lot to go off of, but reads seem OK. I mean I disagree with his top two pushes, but I think for anyone to be pushing Math/TW right now I would of been granting some TP to because there has to be like a 0% chance they get lynched today.

Er... your two scumreads are in his townreads. And also while you have some overlapping reads with Draynth, your reasons for those reads are different (e.g. Draynth's read on skitter was null bc he literally just skipped skitter's posts, whereas you have a nullread on skitter for a very different reason). What there anything else about his reads that pinged you as town?

^ more troubling is the fact that he never really followed up on interacting with TW imo

^ I did ask you, a townlean of mine, a question in 501

Otherwise that's kinda valid to point out, but really I'm having trouble keeping track of everything and keep having to ask people for their goddamn reads.

@ruru: can you vote for who you think is scum? or at least say who you think is scum

whew tensions are running high

~ some lighthearted fluff to break the tension ~

<SNIP>
which is about as ai as

whether or not he smells like fucking fish

.

fwiw, I don't think I smell like fish

well hey now that's personal attack

Oxy, you realize your case on me is basically that I'm different from the last game? A lot of people have said the same thing about you

pedit: wat why

I was explaining to UD the bussing theory

But yeah I kinda get that tbh

lmao whoops vote me

I'll even self hammer

Hmm, I'm not sure if anything else I say at this point will be useful. So I'm going to bed

If people wanna PL me, then I probably deserve that

[Oxy]

fine.
VOTE: UglyDuck

[Oxy]

fine.
VOTE: UglyDuck

What happened to your UD townread?

math, pintu, ruru all disagreed

[Oxy]

How do you feel about Oxy's....... "analysis" because it's starting to scare the fuck out of me

I bet it is

[Oxy]

HURT: Ofrhz

MD is still obv town
but also should have me as practically conf!town by this point

[Oxy]

scum never tries to hit the same target at the vig. How does that ever help their win con?

In a world where we vote on the vig kill, if scum hits that target, it's basically an extra lynch with no night phase.

and that is def pro town.

[Oxy]

oh, i misunderstood you.

no, the vig does not claim.

[Oxy]

I'm not asking for a vig claim, I was asking about what the designated shot should claim so the vig doesn't accidentally kill a PR, but whatever, I'm too stupid to understand

I was talking to the duck. the vig target does claim - i think.

[Oxy]

@oxy: K, so you're like spreasheeting interactions people have with each other. Is it a general scum-trait that scum don't interact with their partners? Is it a scum-trait for either ofrhz or the worst specifically? If yes, why do you think that? If not, why on earth is that relevant, and why do you keep bringing it up, and are you using it as evidence of them being partners? And if you don't think their interactions are tvt, why do you think it's svs and not, say, svt?

Yeah, I'd bet good money it's AI for the Worst.
If he's in a thread, and you're in a thread, town!duckling engages with you. Some fluff, sure, but also about the game.

So when I scum read Ofrhz, and I scum read The Worst, and then I go and see that even though both of them were talking in the thread around the same time for dozens of pages, the worst hasn't said a single word about the game directly to Ofrhz (other than to eventually say he was scum), I think it is good complimentary evidence to my scum reads.

[Oxy]

I'm not asking for a vig claim, I was asking about what the designated shot should claim so the vig doesn't accidentally kill a PR, but whatever, I'm too stupid to understand

I was talking to the duck. the vig target does claim - i think.

I was talking to the duck, too.

okay, good!

[Oxy]

Don't fall into the trap of thinking scum is on every wagon
UglyDuck could definitely be a radioactive wagon for scum

Are you still scumreading UD?

[Oxy]

yes

[Oxy]

@orfhz is draynth your answer to your own thought experiment? If so, why? If not, then why haven't you answered the thought experiment yourself?

[Oxy]

oh wow so your three scummiest people are the 2 lynch baits and the guy you just unvoted who is currently being wagoned?

[Oxy]

Lists are in no particular order

Town
Scioness Sajj
AP
Ruru
Mathdino
UglyDuck
Sunshine13

Town Lean
Pinturicchio
Mohab500

Null
Draynth
Skitter30

Scum
Ofrhz
The Worst

Mod
BrassHerald

[Oxy]

I have no reason to fight you.

[Oxy]

1. Why is sheeping a scum read (thus keeping them in your lynch pool) not a viable part of a poe strategy? Sadly, he is clearly not fighting for an ofrhz lynch today...

2. I don't think this takes into account the opinions on meta that Mathdino has shared in this thread and around this site.

[Oxy]

Have you played with TW before? Specifically scum!TW before?

I feel like this is fairly circumstantial evidence that you're using to back a pre-flip read when you don't know that either of them are scum. Like I don't feel like this evidence is inherently AI and I don't like that you're using it as a reason to teamread them.

This is gross. Reads on each of them were formed prior to any association analysis.
Association analysis purely icing on cake.

[Oxy]

2. I don't think this takes into account the opinions on meta that Mathdino has shared in this thread and around this site.

Can you be more specific?

Sure.

Actual experience playing with a person counts for far more when making a meta case than any other sort of analysis. (mathdino's opinion)

[Oxy]

What if Math, Oxy, skitter, and ruru are all town? Given this, who should we lynch today? Please discuss (seriously, I’m stuck).

Why town!oxy?

There was a post somewhere in the pages that I skimmed from draynth that I kinda liked and thought didn't come from scum.

Specifically:

Does anyone wanna just compromise and lollynch Draynth

I'm gonna go ahead and suggest against this...?

I don't really feel like scum suggest themselves as a compromise lynch tbh.

HE IS LITERALLY DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE

You misread the reasoning for my scum reads and now this. Skitter, PLZ READ

[Oxy]

yes, and I think that tying them together by how many times they responded to each other and using that to form an associative read before either of them have flipped is gross.

okay. so let's go back to my reads from before the association analysis. I still think they are scum. Better?

[Oxy]

Lists are in no particular order

Town
Scioness Sajj
AP
Ruru
Mathdino
UglyDuck
Sunshine13

Town Lean
Pinturicchio
Mohab500

Null
Draynth
Skitter30

Scum
Ofrhz
The Worst

Mod
BrassHerald

You are voting for town btw lol

It's kind of a nod to the fact that a couple of my best town reads think you're scum

And partly a vote lodged in protest because mathdino is being slow to come around.

[Oxy]

It makes sense in my head. I'm aggravated with mathdino, and I'm taking it out on you.

[Oxy]

Fight me, skitter.

My reads are super clear,
And I'm sheeping solid town reads.

It's a pro town mood, and I can be melodramatic about it if I want to.

[Oxy]

move*

[Oxy]

His scumread on you feels more ... forced I guess is a good word. Like he's overstating the significance of things that I don't find to be that AI and using that to scumread you almost.

From your pov, this should obv!town me LOL

[Oxy]

Lists are in no particular order

Town
AP
Ruru
Mathdino


Town Lean
Pinturicchio

These are the town reads that I'm sheeping. I can tell them my view point on a slot, and defer to the crowd sourced logic at the same time

[Oxy]

dino post read list

[Oxy]

You're still posting, but you're not reading my posts. Which is cool and all, but I'm not engaging with it anymore.

[Oxy]

looks like a pretty okay read list to me

draynth lynch is a crutch. I think I'm out for a bit

my suggestion:

VOTE: The Worst

[Oxy]

Don't worry skitter, 3rd time's the charm for sorting me I guess =/

[Oxy]

Answers for Sajj

Spoiler:

are you telling us you were lamist on purpose to get some scumleans out of people?

yes - in 1859.

nice dodge on the md question.

There is a whole post on my md read. It just wasn't attached to that quote.

also updates on mohab? would you still sheep md?

Part of me thinks it's probably town because it's just so silly
but part of me tin foil hats, looks at ofrhz scum reading mohab, and sees pissed off scum partner
Sort mohab later, or by vig.
Yeah, I could see myself sheeping md on this slot if he felt strongly one way or the other.

I want to. Explain.

Yeah, I have already decided not to 1v1 my other town reads on this, so I'm not going to fight you either. I don't remember a scummy post from him, though.

do you think it is also perfect read for me here? why?

Not so much, but I remember thinking it was a reasonable read. Then again, I have a history of thinking your train of thought doesn't make sense ;P

[Oxy]

You didn't ask for more, you said I dodged your question about md in 494, and I gave you the post about my read in 539. I didn't dodge shit. And how much do you want on a read? I gave you a read on both mathdino the person and mathdino the player in this game for goodness sake.

Here are posts of yours with reasoning that I thought was bleh. And I agreed with him about your vote.

Spoiler:

Oxy seems more diplomatic in this game

oxy seems a lot less opinionated and that's worrying.

Is this AI though?

it might be. he has been agreeing with people and cracked a bad joke. don't remember him posting anything interesting just yet.

let it be known that you asked for it
i am not actually tunneling you as hard as the following is going to make it seem

I think 13p is the perfect size game (give or take)
welcome. hope you enjoy it here.

sheeping the first rvs wagon to L-2 with nothing but a "hi" post pings me as more likely scummy than null/towny. L-2 also lacks the accountability of L-1 or even like a 2nd vote, it's a decent position for scum to be in.

idk if it were me I'd say something like "good wagon, evilduck must die (vote)" but that's not really the point.

I'm not lockscumming her ass and suggesting we lynch with fire but it's a great place to start

btw Math is super super heavily invested in the whole Mafia Discussion world and is incredibly sharp re. open setups. everything he says will be objectively correct or a highly educated opinion. but it's not alignment indicative.

1. game irrelevant comment

2. buddying newbies

3. overexplained version of "L-2 is often the scumspot on the wagon"

4. irrelevant sidenote

5. backs down from the scumread but justifies his vote as pro-town (i hate to say LAMIST but)

6. buddies me with correct knowledge of my gameplay

none of these things are scummy in themselves but the combination of all 6 and this many words without things that i think actually advance the gamestate makes me read it as
posturing?
LAMISTy?
busywork?
whatever term you use for "scum trying to act like town", that.

I agree with 2 and 5 but rest is a strech tbh

Answered inline

ruru is voting me because they townread you and I’m voting you. Thoughts regarding that very specific situation please.

I don't really want to speculate as to why she voted for you, as she was awfully sparse with her explanation in voting for you. Since you asked, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility for her to think you're scumreading me (also see tw's question directed at you). ruru could be confused why you are scumreading someone she townreads. Additionally, neither ruru nor I were townreading you, yet you chose to single me out for doing so. I think this was genuine mistake on your part though, but she might have seen it differently.

I guess you can consider the following non-exhaustive list of points you can cover:

Is it a good vote?

I think she thinks it's a productive use of her vote. For relatively inexperienced players, I believe trying to find the motivation behind what they do is more important than what I think they should be doing with her vote. I elaborated on possible motivations above ^.

But to answer your question at face value, I think she should be voting for Mohab or AP or someone who hasn't bothered to talk in game

Will it progress reads on me and/or ruru?

See answer above. This also depends on her successive questioning and her ability to suss people out by engaging with them. I think that is a high ask for someone who is most likely playing her first game as town.

In summary, this, in addition to what I wrote earlier about her being more proactive this game, is why I am townreading her still. Have I answered your questions?

@other duckie, let him question me first.

This is super overexplained for no reason. I don't like that he suggests ruru should be going after lurkers.

I would expect him to be showing this tone more.
Yeah, he is really passive.

[Oxy]

tbh, I could see all 4 of those people being lynched tomorrow, so all of those are good vig shots.

[Oxy]

[Oxy]

Yeah tbh oxy didn't really seem to be playing up the LAMIST-y thing on purpose to be seen as scummy, especially since he stopped ~day2 after math pointed it out and after I kept on harping on it.

what was the point after having been role blocked and cleared by math
ruru, you didn't see a change because it was a strategy(lol) i took going into the game, as i said before.

[Oxy]

pretty sure this is town skitter. I've been here before. Feels right.

[Oxy]

yo, the worst, let's 1v1. I think you're scum, and you know I'm town. We're a perfect match.

[Oxy]

lay out the case why I'm a scum butt

[Oxy]

Whether or not it was AI for you to consciously/sub-consciously avoid talking to your scum partner directly will come out in post game.

I don't think you can help talking to people as town, so yeah, I think it was AI.

I also think you're playing scummy af. You've been trying to derail a perfectly pro-town plan for the vig shot

You've been throwing shade at people like dino without reasoning

You reacted to my case on you by saying "I'm going to have to process this"

but I think town you gets a little bit angrier when someone makes a case against you that you consider bad. Don't you think, Dino? Don't answer that.

[Oxy]

but your case on me?

Your case on me is that the massive amount of effort I put into this game resulted in a "useless" statistic

And that I'm pocketing mathdino

And that I'm a scumbutt.

So which case is really more nonsensical?

[Oxy]

Town win by finding scum not by asking the 4th player on their wagon to re case them

Are you number 4? What a comfy position for scum to be in, amirite?

This post definitely doesn't sound like you're anxious to take ownership of my lynch.

[Oxy]

Doing good thanks.

skitter do you have any scum meta? thinking back to Math's Stack the Deck you're too easy a townread for me.

I had a minor scumstreak early in my MS career. it is a pain.
I'll go do some reading, shame there's no recent meta.

I can't meta read for shit, I'm just curious

in fairness all this shit is so long ago scum!skitter is probably different by now anyway.

anyway.........town!skitter is awesome so I will just try to resist reading her for now in the hope she skitters

well

as I said I like skitter so far, she skittered well considering her last post was on page 3.
I also think she has good instincts so far--hit me up if you aren't picking up what I'm putting down here.

This is an interesting progression from "I'll just give up on reading her" to "I thought she looked town all along"

[Oxy]

this player list is fantastic and keeps getting better. I also like the mod. it's like a clean sweep.

@whoever rolled scum fuck you for being scum and forcing us to kill you :'(

I'm not going to claim this is scummy

But if you do flip red, this is definitely cringe worthy, mate.

[Oxy]

He’s a strong town player. and if what he says is true, he’ll bus his own scum partners, thereby doing some of the work for us.

So no, I don’t want to lynch him d1. Plus I think everything he said in 280 is true.

HMM NICE WORK DIZZY DUCKLING

Could you please explain what this post means and your motivation for making it?

To me, this interaction feels forced. I know you like to make fluff posts, but I don't really understand the joke, or why this post by ofrhz prompted you to make it?

[Oxy]

I think you need to reread my post because you don't seem to understand it, and I was being quite clear.

[Oxy]

Explain whether this progression ever comes from scum!me and why?

Context, this was wrt math asking me for a townread outside the obvtowns

Of course it is in your scum range. It's lazy af. "Oh well, sorting people is hard so I give up on skitter" -> "I need another town read for dino, so wtf I'll just call this interaction I found null before town this time and no one will care"

[Oxy]

He’s a strong town player. and if what he says is true, he’ll bus his own scum partners, thereby doing some of the work for us.

So no, I don’t want to lynch him d1. Plus I think everything he said in 280 is true.

HMM NICE WORK DIZZY DUCKLING

Could you please explain what this post means and your motivation for making it?

To me, this interaction feels forced. I know you like to make fluff posts, but I don't really understand the joke, or why this post by ofrhz prompted you to make it?

Anti town af to dictate later game expectation of a player's scum play when you're entertaining that they could be scum.

How is this forced...?

So, at the time you considered this post as likely coming from scum!Ofrhz?

[Oxy]

I think you need to reread my post because you don't seem to understand it, and I was being quite clear.

I'm asking for more.
How you've actually reached these conclusions and why you think they come from scum.

You're pushing a lynchcase not a scumcase fmpov and it's gross


pedit: you know I know how to play scum right

You thought I was talking about dino when I was talking about you amongst other misunderstandings. re read it.

[Oxy]

So, at the time you considered this post as likely coming from scum!Ofrhz?

The idea crossed my mind
Much more antitown than scum indicative tho imo

You're a helpful guy. Why didn't you explain to him why it was anti-town?

Or follow up with him at all?

[Oxy]

I literally have no idea what you mean here dude. I'm sorry. If you're thinking more than you're posting please remember I can't read your mind.

wow, condescending, okay. Fine, I'll go reiterate.

Whether or not it was AI for you to consciously/sub-consciously avoid talking to your scum partner directly will come out in post game.
I don't think you can help talking to people as town, so yeah, I think it was AI. This is not a primary factor in my scum read on you. Like I said we'll see in postgame

I also think you're playing scummy af. You've been trying to derail a perfectly pro-town plan for the vig shot. You asked me why you would go out on a limb - It's not a limb. I'm the only one calling you out for it.

You've been throwing shade at people like dino without reasoning. You say you had reasoning. Where? Where is there anything but smoke and mirrors from you about his slot?

You reacted to my case on you by saying "I'm going to have to process this" (this is about you, not dino)

but I think town you gets a little bit angrier when someone makes a case against you that you consider bad. Don't you think, Dino? Don't answer that.

[Oxy]

I'm out of time for the moment, myself. to be continued.

Looking at the wagon, there's definitely one scum!duck on it right now. He's probably the lone one right now, but in a world where there is a second, it's probably pintu.

[Oxy]

Pintu - Idgi. why?

I wrote more in my quote for you, duck. like an ebwop. check it out.

I literally have no idea what you mean here dude. I'm sorry. If you're thinking more than you're posting please remember I can't read your mind.

wow, condescending, okay. Fine, I'll go reiterate.

Whether or not it was AI for you to consciously/sub-consciously avoid talking to your scum partner directly will come out in post game.
I don't think you can help talking to people as town, so yeah, I think it was AI. This is not a primary factor in my scum read on you. Like I said we'll see in postgame

I also think you're playing scummy af. You've been trying to derail a perfectly pro-town plan for the vig shot. You asked me why you would go out on a limb - It's not a limb. I'm the only one calling you out for it.

You've been throwing shade at people like dino without reasoning. You say you had reasoning. Where? Where is there anything but smoke and mirrors from you about his slot?

You reacted to my case on you by saying "I'm going to have to process this" (this is about you, not dino)

but I think town you gets a little bit angrier when someone makes a case against you that you consider bad. Don't you think, Dino? Don't answer that.

[Oxy]

I know I am replacing out but I thinm tw is scum or at the very least, tw vs oxy is not tvt

For the record this is the worst post ig so far
My respect for nsg is too great.....

do you disagree? you think you vs me is tvt?

[Oxy]

town lean is a town read you fool

And I just said the worst is probably the only scum voting me

but skitter tunnel feels precisely like last game, and I think she's town. And I'm pretty sure math is town

so in a world of 2 on my wagon, you were the only one left??

Also, WTF. I'm being voted on by 2 people for being too different from last game, and one person for being too similar? am I a fucking rorshach test?

@the worst - I think the timing was bad mannered, but mohab just got bullied out of this game because people like NSG more, so I wouldn't have blamed them if they posted their role pm as a big fuck you. basically, it's NAI.

More after this conference call

[Oxy]

Whether or not it was AI for you to consciously/sub-consciously avoid talking to your scum partner directly will come out in post game.

Explain what you're talking about here AND why you think it's appropriate to make bad pre flip associations with no knowledge of how my meta works.

explained numerous times

I don't think you can help talking to people as town, so yeah, I think it was AI.

I also think you're playing scummy af. You've been trying to derail a perfectly pro-town plan for the vig shot

Why does scum!me go against the flow so aggressively? and I compulsively talk to people as either alignment. This fits two categories

1) people I townread hard.
2) people I think I can sort via forcing them to generate content.

Why did you feel you couldn't sort ofrhz in this way?

You've been throwing shade at people like dino without reasoning

You reacted to my case on you by saying "I'm going to have to process this"

If you think I have no reasoning for my dinocase you need to reread my ISO dude, and yes duh--he finally explained where he's coming from and I can actually see how town!dino is wrong here. Of course I'm going to reconsider my read??

You responded to my case on you in that manner, not to something dino said.

but I think town you gets a little bit angrier when someone makes a case against you that you consider bad. Don't you think, Dino? Don't answer that.

Whats this in reference to?

The part immediately above it

[Oxy]

In post 1120, Oxy wrote:
but skitter tunnel feels precisely like last game, and I think she's town. And I'm pretty sure math is town


This is a really weird thing for you to say cuz I'm not tunneling you here and the way I'm interacting with you here is vastly different from how I interacted with you in that game.

I kinda feel like you're calling me town and saying I'm tunneling you so that you can brush off the scumread tbh

tbh it's both you're bad read on me and your bad read on dino, and how you have pushed past multiple explanations for things you are concerned about.

[Oxy]

Doesn't feel tvt to me and I'm low-key getting the vibe that you might be buddying me at this point.

buddying you, buddying ruru, and buddying me

but didn't buddy anyone last game

[Oxy]

Yeah, there was no convincing you. and math had no luck talking to you earlier. why try again?

[Oxy]

Life is a storm, my young friend. You will bask in the sunlight one moment, be shattered on the rocks the next. What makes you a man is what you do when that storm comes. You must look into that storm and shout as you did in Rome. Do your

worst

, for I will do mine! Then the fates will know you as I know you.

@pinturicchio You asked about the world where ofrhz is town. I reread a number of people tonight, and tried to reevaluate each of them. Not terribly much changed. I still don't see town motivation in The Worst, and I can definitely see a ton of fluff, little game solving, some shade throwing, some buddying, and reasonable scum motivation behind his pushes/reads. I think I was too hasty in my skitter read, and I realized that my confidence level in town!sajj should be shook by how consistently her posts oozed scum from my pov in 1859.

I still love Mathdino's game progression. I think his paranoia is townie, and I commiserate with him having an abundance of town reads. I am anxiously awaiting his NSG read. A scum read makes today's lynch easy, and a town read pretty much clears the slot (I'm not telling 1859 anything they don't already know here).

Read list (ofrhz = town instead of Ofrhz = scum)

Spoiler:

town lean:
Assuming Ofrhz town, here's where I'm at. Lists in no particular order:
Town
AP
Ruru
sunshine
UglyDuck
ofrhz
Mathdino


Sajj - lean because of lack of self confidence in reading ability
Pinturicchio - this is a town read except for one little thing.

Let Mathdino Sort:
NSG

Null
Draynth - I don't know what to do on this slot. There's not much there, and some of his questions/responses give the impression that he isn't terribly connected to the game. That might be AI, but I don't know enough about Draynth to say which alignment it would be indicative of. I'm skeptical of the amount of information that could be gleaned from a Draynth lynch, regardless of which alignment he flips. This slot feels like a perfect candidate for a mechanical resolution. Besides, it bugs me that he committed himself to reading so many things and then showed no proof of follow through. Why does scum!draynth build a trap for himself to fall into like this?

Scum
The Worst
Skitter30

Now. Obviously, Ofrhz goes into my scum read tier without the assumption Pin asked for.

Ideally, NSG is scum in this game. Otherwise, I've either called the scum team exactly, or screwed up on a town read. And I probably haven't called the team exactly.

If I'm wrong about people in my town list, I am most likely wrong about Sunshine. He has experience, and there is no meta on him. I think his push onto ofrhz/ruru over their reads, or lack thereof, comes from a townie mentality. It was a pretty brazen way to start a push - "You're not town reading me, so /vote!" - but maybe that was the point. If there is one person in this game likely to get a near universal town read while owning a scum role pm, it's sunshine.

Second most likely to be wrong about - Mathdino. I love his game so far, but who can know when it comes to dinosaurs.

Skitter read

Spoiler:

I said earlier that the tunnel felt precisely the same as last game. I stand by that, for the most part. Skitter would say something is scummy. I would explain where it was coming from, and her response would come across as, "ok, but i still see it the way I see it." I felt that she had done the same thing with Mathdino and Sajj, and it felt like last game skitter. In retrospect, this would not be a terribly tough thing to fake as scum, and I may have been too hasty in the read.

Someone said earlier that Skitter didn't form scum reads as quickly last game. I don't think that's 1859 had a lower post rate, and I think skitter actually placed her first real vote after about as many posts in 1859 as it took for her to develop a scum read on Mathdino. Obviously the Sajj read came earlier due to the nature of scum reading an opening, but her next substantial scum read came around the same time. If it came earlier here - and the timeline is rather fungible since I cannot know for certain if skitter was posting in real time as she read, or after having read and gone back - it was only by a couple pages at most.

He feels kinda .... shallow, I guess? Like not as involved with the gamestate as I'd expect? Like just kinda here? That doesn't explain what I'm seeing super well though; I guess I'll just call it gut till I figure out how to articulate it?

From my perspective, Mathdino was holding court all through the early game. Mathdino laid out a good defense of his play at the time, and I think that added credibility to this read by Skitter. In retrospect, this was a really odd conclusion to draw from the game up until this point.

Sajj is scummy. Dislike her entrance, dislike that her other posts later were largely about people responding to her entrance.

I find this read scummy. Skitter just played in a game where I tunneled Sajj right out of the gate. She responded by focusing on deflecting the case against her. This seems like a generic lvl 1 read coming from someone who should be seeing this as either town indicative or NAI.

Posts from the worst I find scummy

Spoiler:

while we're getting stuff of our chests
townreading Mohab500 without more content is weird as shit

I'm not adverse to it but there are certain boxes he needs to tick first imo

And I think that for most people who played in that game, ruru is fairly obvtown at this point.

why just for people who played that game?

@universe anyone played with draynth before?

He repped into newbie 1797 a year ago ~12 hours before the day1 deadline. He was asleep before I was around, and he got lynched after I went asleep and before he woke up or something, so, like, I was technically in a game with him but we didn't actually interact.

He was more try-hard there, but his slot was imminently getting lynched, so idk if that means much.

What was his alignment? Probably means nothing but circumstantial > nothing

Definitely.

Fuck my stupid brain telling me that was a scum!ruru reaction

I wish it was d2 my reads are farked

I have no like major issues with being lynched here but

Imploring town (which I should have done last time I was lined up for a mislynch)

IF I AM THE LYNCH THEN WHEN I FLIP GREEN BURN THE DINOSAUR TO DEATH

ruru, scioness is also just town

if we get a scumflip between ofrhz/TW we can also confirm scioness is town by that logic

also i'm starting to think TW is town so there's definitely a scumread that slipped by me

could be oxy but for now this solidifies scum in {UglyDuck, Draynth}

How do you feel about Oxy's....... "analysis" because it's starting to scare the fuck out of me

pretty townish, otherwise not that interesting

vote for shooting ofrhz pls

Edit: wow yeah vig playing hero is potentially the most anti-town idea possible

Problem.
If loud and charismatic scum steer the vig shot, it is MORE anti town.
Don't act like you don't see it

Lurkin thru a bit, kinda lack of conviction in your posts, I'm not really feeling your strong reads....also you were scumreading me one appearance, but suddenly feel very agreeable...

[Oxy]

I'll take questions.. I've got an early day today, so I don't think I'm sleeping. Post took longer than I realized.

[Oxy]

And take your time, but I'm hopeful that you will find a read on nsg. don't force it tho

[Oxy]

I don't really think sunshine is scum. If he is, we're getting styled on. That in itself would be some next level cocky shit considering this is a new platform for him.

[Oxy]

On skitter: One thing I kept coming back to in that dialogue you had with skitter earlier was the discussion of MKUltra. You guys brought it up simultaneously, and that was kind of cute. It flowed from the conversation, but then it went on forever. And neither of you were really trying to prove a hard meta argument based on the game. So what was the point? - Actually, my real question is, have you and skitter debriefed mkultra before? Or was this the first time?

[Oxy]

If skitter and the worst are both town, my lynch pool looks like this:

{Ofrhz, scioness sajj, nsg, draynth, ap}
not necessarily in that order

[Oxy]

ehh, I'd probably lynch in Ofrhz, draynth, nsg, but ap and scioness would become good candidates for mechanical sorting/poe later

[Oxy]

@mathdino maybe you are getting worse? ;P

uglyduck is not scum. I'm pretty confident on that one. I really don't see where the scum reads were coming from. at all.

[Oxy]

ruru i'm confident on. unless you or another experienced player is scum with her, and probably specifically you. Then maybe I could see her being coached to stay away from 1859 meta.

I got a little paranoid about ruru for a second because she's taking this universal town read sitting down, and I kind of would have expected her to push back on it a little. Similar to how nsg pushes back against your read on her.

but it's probably just due to her being relieved she isn't scum this game.

[Oxy]

sunshine we talked about.

I like AP's reads and his style. I think he's usually town. His equity goes way up when 2+ scum reads or null reads flip green.

In retrospect, pintu reaching out to work with me was really townie. I don't see why that comes from scum!pintu but there is a thing I can't talk about holding me back ever so slightly.

and ofrhz is just way too all over the place this game. There were times in D1 1859 where I was doing double takes because he would be asking questions with real bite of his town reads. This game he has been really friendly.

When AP was casing him, he did that little passive aggressive wall response (which he later said wasn't passive aggressive). That was the most confrontational he has been this game. I was considering that it might be added confidence and comfort - ofrhz letting his hair down and relaxing - but last game he had that whole, "excuse me for being blunt, but that was a stupid question" post. And here, there is none of that.

[Oxy]

oops, i meant sunshine, not AP in the last paragraph.

[Oxy]

...and the answer will come when i stop being lazy and actually do all the metadives i promised

is this all a satire on my draynth read? where i talk about it being silly for scum to commit to doing extra reading that they aren't actually going to do?

[Oxy]

...and the answer will come when i stop being lazy and actually do all the metadives i promised

is this all a satire on my draynth read? where i talk about it being silly for scum to commit to doing extra reading that they aren't actually going to do?

What is the intention of this question

to make a joke and to bring up this behavior for discussion.

It worked on one level. =/

[Oxy]

You guys have reached draw by reptition...

[Oxy]

the worst, can i get a read list from you, mate? you're reads are super spread out in your iso

[Oxy]

???

[Oxy]

The bit about UD is a decent description of what I did. I think it's laughable that you find it scum-indicative.

I don't understand what the bolded means. (IE if that added credibility to my read why was it an odd conclusion?)

It made your read seem more reasonable because mathdino was interacting with you in a way that suggested he thought your read was reasonable, and his opinion of your read gave it additional credibility by virtue of his skill level.

But it wasn't a reasonable read, and I realized this on reread.

Not sure who the second sentence is talking about. (IE who does 'she' mean - me or scioness?)

Scioness Sajj.

[Oxy]

Also, skitter, last game you consistently described my actions as anti-town.

Why does this not play into your read of me this game? Because right now your read on me is basically, "I wouldn't do that as town, so he must be scum."

[Oxy]

sajj is right about that - at least through 626.

She never spoke directly to either of them up through that post, and she only mentioned sunshine once in a read list in post 272

[Oxy]

No one is engaging me on this, and I would much rather talk about this than about why I'm town this game. Commentary interspersed in the quotes.

Posts from the worst I find scummy

Spoiler:

while we're getting stuff of our chests
townreading Mohab500 without more content is weird as shit

I'm not adverse to it

but there are certain boxes he needs to tick first imo

I translate this post as the following:
"I don't see a reason to town read Mohab based on the content he has provided so far. I'm not against town reading Mohab based on what he has provided so far, but if it were up to me, I would want to see other town-indicative content from him first."
The Worst was trying to remove an easy mislynch from a burgeoning town pool without being confrontational, and I think that comes more from a scum motivation than a town one.

And I think that for most people who played in that game, ruru is fairly obvtown at this point.

why just for people who played that game?

This shows a lack of game solving. The reasons why those of us who played 1859 called ruru obv!town had been discussed numerous times by this point. Additionally, this specific read was practically the only reason anyone had given for town reading Ruru. I posit that had The Worst made any attempt to sort Ruru by this point, he would have encountered these arguments, and understood Skitter's reasoning here. To town: Did any of you have a problem understanding why players of 1859 were calling Ruru obv!town?

@universe anyone played with draynth before?

He repped into newbie 1797 a year ago ~12 hours before the day1 deadline. He was asleep before I was around, and he got lynched after I went asleep and before he woke up or something, so, like, I was technically in a game with him but we didn't actually interact.

He was more try-hard there, but his slot was imminently getting lynched, so idk if that means much.

What was his alignment? Probably means nothing but circumstantial > nothing

This is a pointless line of inquiry. I'm not saying people don't grasp at straws, but this feels to me like scum trying to create the appearance of scum hunting more than it feels like town actually scum hunting.

Definitely.

Fuck my stupid brain telling me that was a scum!ruru reaction

Here, The Worst is casting shade on Ruru without actually taking ownership of his scum read. Considering that Ruru had just self voted, this appears to be a test balloon. If people latch on to the idea, The Worst is right there. If no one does, he just lets the shade fade away.

I wish it was d2 my reads are farked

Again, not taking responsibility for his reads because "oh I am but a poor confused town folk."

I have no like major issues with being lynched here but

Imploring town (which I should have done last time I was lined up for a mislynch)

IF I AM THE LYNCH THEN WHEN I FLIP GREEN BURN THE DINOSAUR TO DEATH

I think this one speaks for itself...

ruru, scioness is also just town

if we get a scumflip between ofrhz/TW we can also confirm scioness is town by that logic

also i'm starting to think TW is town so there's definitely a scumread that slipped by me

could be oxy but for now this solidifies scum in {UglyDuck, Draynth}

How do you feel about Oxy's....... "analysis" because it's starting to scare the fuck out of me

pretty townish, otherwise not that interesting

vote for shooting ofrhz pls

Edit: wow yeah vig playing hero is potentially the most anti-town idea possible

Problem.
If loud and charismatic scum steer the vig shot, it is MORE anti town.
Don't act like you don't see it

Arguing that Mathdino has misrepresented his opinions on vigilantes and proper play here in an attempt to manipulate the vig kill seems to be in direct contradiction to what he said earlier:

btw Math is super super heavily invested in the whole Mafia Discussion world and is incredibly sharp re. open setups. everything he says will be objectively correct or a highly educated opinion. but it's not alignment indicative.

It seems like The Worst believes Mathdino would not lie about proper play regarding vigilantes. If that is true, then why is he undermining Mathdino about how vig shots should be determined?

Lurkin thru a bit, kinda lack of conviction in your posts, I'm not really feeling

your strong reads

....also you were scumreading me one appearance, but suddenly feel very agreeable...

I don't actually know how the above quote got here. I don't find it particularly scummy.

[Oxy]

my townreads have more scum-indicative data on scioness

Not to argue against a lynch that isn't me, or anything....

But which of your town reads are now scum reading scioness?

I know ofrhz and skitter are, but I didn't think you were town reading them?

[Oxy]

actually im not sure skitter is scum reading her.

Who is scum reading scioness besides Orfhz?

[Oxy]

ooooh. Does that mean we have an NSG town read from math???

[Oxy]

tbh, I prefer the draynth counter wagon to sajj

Still think the worst and ofrhz are the best people to lynch/vig from both a reads and a mechanical standpoint.

[Oxy]

The bit about UD is a decent description of what I did. I think it's laughable that you find it scum-indicative.

Are you really trying to argue that it isn't scum-indiciatve to vote a townread?
Yah, actually, I think it's laughable that you look at that vote and 1859 and think, "Yeah, Oxy never does this as town."
But you do you, mate.

[Oxy]

messed up quotes, but that's in response to skitter

[Oxy]

And you know, it's really not relevant to this game state, but you called numerous things that I did anti-town. Yes that wagon, also encouraging ofrhz v sajj, and the strength of my town reads early, So maybe you wouldn't call it anti-town in a holistic sense - sure - but I was saying that you considered a bunch of stuff I did anti-town - you did.

And it's this kind of pedantic, contrarianism that makes me not want to engage with you.

[Oxy]

That would break site rules.

[Oxy]

@pin Yes, I was referencing your play last game, but no I was not scum telling you that I'm going to fake a cc against someone.

[Oxy]

Want to cooperate with me?

Yes. What subject?

[Oxy]

the worst, ofrhz, skitter -> followed by draynth and sajj, with sunshine and math as the scum i missed if i missed scum

[Oxy]

It's possible. Fmpov, likely scum teams have a lot of reason to nk him.

He's definitely not the easiest person for scum to deal with in lylo if he is town

Strategically, I just don't see the case for pushing him d1.

Talk to me about why you're scum reading him? Because he has been withdrawn?

[Oxy]

ruru
pintu
Sunshine
Scioness
Oxy
AP
Mohab
TW
skitter30
ofrhz
UglyDuck
Draynth

i'm not explaining these all because my reads are not consistent with the current gamestate

it doesn't add up

If not scum read by reason of specific posts, let's try a different angle.

Who're the partners?
Do skitter and math fake that intro as partners? Not super difficult, but a lot of effort for sure.

He never really pushed TW when he had him as a real scum read, but it was early in the day for sure. But that comment from math to tw, "are you doing this just because those are my lynch pool?" felt like genuine frustration to me that would otherwise be dealt with in scum chat?

I can't remember was he on the ugly duck wagon? I know he was on ofrhz at some point.

His scioness read could be read as kind of shaky for how high she is, but it fits well with his lower reads on ofrhz and tw.

NSG is the real issue for me with dino. It's unfair to force him to read her by BoP, but maybe the play from scum!dino is to avoid reading her. especially if they are partners?

I don't really know how to engage with you on this in a super productive fashion.

[Oxy]

The worst has been throwing pot shots at dino for a while now

[Oxy]

@mathdino I'm kind of with Ruru on this. If you are town, you might be night killed. Thus, we should put you in the best position to give us a solid read on NSG today. And there is time for it.

What am I missing?

VOTE: NSG
post or perish

[Oxy]

I guess I can't really argue with you over the conditions necessary for town!NSG to produce town AI content.

This, then.

VOTE: Draynth
HURT: Ofrhz

[Oxy]

FMPOV, the bigger worry is that it looks like it has too much scum on it. I'm inclined to believe 2+, but...

[Oxy]

it's basically the bottom of my reads list - ofrhz and + sunshine.