Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[UglyDuck]

Zomg so many ducks

[UglyDuck]

I want to hear something interesting from:-
Draynth
UglyDuck
AP
Scioness Sajj



loosely in that order [:

yeah thats mb typing it up now. will be more active from here on forth. sorry.

[UglyDuck]

OK I lied half way through write up, but I am exhausted. Will post and start contributing tomorrow.

[UglyDuck]

OK after completely catching up, here is my generalized reads list so that I do not take up 2 pages of space. If you have a question, or want more input on a specific read, just ask. If I posted all my notes it would of taken up until like page 25

Towny Side of Stuff

Oxy

- TownXTown to the tenth power. No avenues being produced through any of their reads to be looked at as possible set ups. Only player so far to me where like actually all of their content seems genuine.

Math

- driving the game. engaging with all players, yadda yadda. I will do a seperate post about both TW and Math, but strong TRs on both for now.

theworst

- driving the game. engaging with all players, yadda yadda. I will do a seperate post about both TW and Math, but strong TRs on both for now.

sunshine

- posting content, asking questions, obviously reading far into the game. Town traits, I don't see a reason to look here today.

Draynth

- Not a lot to go off of, but reads seem OK. I mean I disagree with his top two pushes, but I think for anyone to be pushing Math/TW right now I would of been granting some TP to because there has to be like a 0% chance they get lynched today.

Middle People

Skitter

- Lots of content once they started and they obviously are reading along intently and putting effort into pulling quotes and and explanations and etc. Some of the quotes though, have explanations that seems a little too specific to be something to actually care about on D1. Most recent example being calling Math skum because of a similarity to play style in MkUltra. Whatever, if I had to choose outside of null, def would pick Town, but null it is.

Scioness

- Trying to make some cases on some people for some kind of NAI reasons (IMO). However, as I am heavily TR on the worst right now, I feel like skum would be the first to jump off the L2 TW wagon early Day 1 for the credit (assuming I am right about Town!TW). Summary: Cases being made are skummy, actions seem more on the towny side of things.

Pin

- So I am 4 games on this forum and this is the third with Pin. I have thought he was skum in every game I have played with him, and so far have yet to be correct. I am putting him under Null because I am getting skummy vibes, but obv that has not worked out for me in the past. The thing is that I am getting skummy vibes because he is playing differently than he has in the other games I have played with him. Normally way more involved, and pushing the game along. That could be because Math/TW are kind of driving the bus here, or not, so yeah.. for now Null.

Mohab500

- No fucking idea. So weird. If anything I guess Town? but it takes me as much time to read one of their posts as it does to read a page of any other content so IDK.

AP

- Same thing as Mohab, kind of, on a lesser level. They are at least contributing in the game quite a bit, it is just all the other relaxed posts throw me off.

Skummy

Ruru

- Perfect amount of content for skum combined with the the content of that content. A little bit of the Game Set Up talk, a little bit of the rando joke around side content, some vote throws, and (what stood out to me) is just like lots of random questions. Not random I suppose, but questions that have been answered based on context of game or like ambiguous questions about general game play. They said this is their second game ever, so there could be that - but just a note from my POV, bc this site has so many ALTs, I disregard every player's "amount of games played posts".

ofrhz

- So this is kind of my main spot at this point. Starting with the Vig shot concept from a while back "why wouldn't Vig shoot N1". Regardless of the correct play, I feel like looking like it from that perspective is worried skum mindset where as Town Mindset would be "Oh god what if I guessed wrong".


So yeah. I don't see myself getting a Ruru train going rn based on everyone's posted standing, so... VOTE: ofrhz

[UglyDuck]

Draynth

- Not a lot to go off of, but reads seem OK. I mean I disagree with his top two pushes, but I think for anyone to be pushing Math/TW right now I would of been granting some TP to because there has to be like a 0% chance they get lynched today.

Er... your two scumreads are in his townreads. And also while you have some overlapping reads with Draynth, your reasons for those reads are different (e.g. Draynth's read on skitter was null bc he literally just skipped skitter's posts, whereas you have a nullread on skitter for a very different reason). What there anything else about his reads that pinged you as town?

Pin

- So I am 4 games on this forum and this is the third with Pin. I have thought he was skum in every game I have played with him, and so far have yet to be correct. I am

putting him under Null because I am getting skummy vibes, but obv that has not worked out for me in the past

. The thing is that

I am getting skummy vibes because he is playing differently

than he has in the other games I have played with him. Normally way more involved, and pushing the game along. That could be because Math/TW are kind of driving the bus here, or not, so yeah.. for now Null.

Lots of hedging

Ruru

- Perfect amount of content for skum combined with the the content of that content. A little bit of the Game Set Up talk, a little bit of the rando joke around side content, some vote throws, and (what stood out to me) is just like lots of random questions. Not random I suppose, but questions that have been answered based on context of game or like ambiguous questions about general game play. They said this is their second game ever, so there could be that - but just a note from my POV, bc this site has so many ALTs, I disregard every player's "amount of games played posts".

Nah I believe she's telling the truth when she says this is her second game.

ofrhz

- So this is kind of my main spot at this point. Starting with the Vig shot concept from a while back "why wouldn't Vig shoot N1". Regardless of the correct play, I feel like looking like it from that perspective is

worried skum mindset

where as Town Mindset would be "Oh god what if I guessed wrong".


So yeah.

I don't see myself getting a Ruru train going rn based on everyone's posted standing

, so... VOTE: ofrhz

I'm not really seeing this? Someone brought up that vig is anti-town because a vig could just mis-fire on town, so I was trying to get at an optimal vig play here.

I kinda feel like you're going after me for being an easier mislynch than ruru.
VOTE: UglyDuck call it omgus, idgaf

not reading pedits lmao

Ok, the tinfoil hat theory is still on, but I'll leave it for another day. I got real reasons to believe that Drainth and Uglyduck are both scum, and if we want to lynch the ducks, then I'll focus in the ugly one

VOTE: Uglyduck

Normally i would say this is a set up post, but as you are voting for me doesn’t really make sense. Bur also your read is irrelevant bc i have only posted one thing lol. Misguided town or skum - idk. But overconfident this one is.

[UglyDuck]

UglyDuck have you skimmed 1859 yet?

no. Is it really worth my time? I mean I will if I have to, but if it sucks I am gonna be pissed lol

[UglyDuck]

Normally i would say this is a set up post, but as you are voting for me doesn’t really make sense.

Bur also your read is irrelevant bc i have only posted one thing lol

. Misguided town or skum - idk. But overconfident this one is.

wtf

still not reading pedits

apologies. I had two tabs open on phone. The original post above is pointed at Pin.

[UglyDuck]

UNVOTE: ofrhz

I’m getting off this wagon. ofrhz is probtown.

Consider me on the Ugly Duck wagon, don’t wanna vote yet ‘cause I don’t know how many votes there are and I’m too tired and old and lazy to check on my phone.

UG: Those reads bro. Your main scumspect is scum ‘cause of frickin’

laser

theory, man.

Also not feeling ruru as town.

bro... wtf is a laser theory?

also as a side note. The amount of hate I am picking up based on such a limited skum list should probably raise some eyebrows.

[UglyDuck]

UNVOTE: ofrhz

I’m getting off this wagon. ofrhz is probtown.

Consider me on the Ugly Duck wagon, don’t wanna vote yet ‘cause I don’t know how many votes there are and I’m too tired and old and lazy to check on my phone.

UG: Those reads bro. Your main scumspect is scum ‘cause of frickin’

laser

theory, man.

Also not feeling ruru as town.

bro... wtf is a laser theory?

also as a side note. The amount of hate I am picking up based on such a limited skum list should probably raise some eyebrows.

You missed the strike-thru. You’re scum-reading someone on game theory about 20 pages after the fact.

Double-you-tee-eff.

So when we skum read people day 4 for things they did day 2 that isn’t a acceptable? It only matters when someone said something in relativity to the choronological aspect of it. Yeah it could be 20,40, fuck ... 100 pages later. I found them skummy for it then and Nothing since then has flipped my mentality.

And i still have no idea what laser means then

[UglyDuck]

meh AP's reads are decent with the exception of ruru which i can accept as the token "terrible read"

scum in the ducks, vote one of the ducks, let's go

also TW these past 2 pages has screamed scum-TW to me not gonna lie

Arbitrary pooling of the ducks is odd at this point

[UglyDuck]

OK after completely catching up, here is my generalized reads list so that I do not take up 2 pages of space. If you have a question, or want more input on a specific read, just ask. If I posted all my notes it would of taken up until like page 25

I'm calling this slot scum based on this quote alone. Fight me.

... that’s stupid?

[UglyDuck]

Scioness - Trying to make some cases on some people for some kind of NAI reasons (IMO). However, as I am heavily TR on the worst right now, I feel like

skum would be the first to jump off the L2 TW wagon early Day 1 for the credit

(assuming I am right about Town!TW). Summary: Cases being made are skummy, actions seem more on the towny side of things.

I'm calling this slot town based on this quote alone. Fight me.

@UglyDuck
Scioness put the TW wagon at L-2 so she can't just jump off it. Unless you're saying Scioness's L-2 vote on the wagon is town-indicative. I'm not seeing the connection between the read and the explanation.

Also the person who did what you bolded is Sunshine. Does that affect your read on him?

?? I don’t get it?

[UglyDuck]

UNVOTE: ofrhz

I’m getting off this wagon. ofrhz is probtown.

Consider me on the Ugly Duck wagon, don’t wanna vote yet ‘cause I don’t know how many votes there are and I’m too tired and old and lazy to check on my phone.

UG: Those reads bro. Your main scumspect is scum ‘cause of frickin’

laser

theory, man.

Also not feeling ruru as town.

bro... wtf is a laser theory?

also as a side note. The amount of hate I am picking up based on such a limited skum list should probably raise some eyebrows.

You missed the strike-thru. You’re scum-reading someone on game theory about 20 pages after the fact.

Double-you-tee-eff.

So when we skum read people day 4 for things they did day 2 that isn’t a acceptable? It only matters when someone said something in relativity to the choronological aspect of it. Yeah it could be 20,40, fuck ... 100 pages later. I found them skummy for it then and Nothing since then has flipped my mentality.

And i still have no idea what laser means then

It means you obviously haven’t watched AP

Re-written first sentence ‘cause I calmed down a little. I was not very pleasant. Probably should’ve edited more but then it would lose some of the impact and not actually express how I feel.

I’m super-weirded out by the fact you think a theory post 20 pages back, despite having oodles more content to sr the man for. You could sr him ‘cause I said he was a liar - yes I know ofrhz, you weren’t I accept that now - or ‘cause he thinks you’re other scumpick is town, but no, you choose to do it because of his opinion on what a role should do, which is about as ai as whether or not he smells like fucking fish.

Christ I am literally shaking with rage at how fucking stupid that is.

Just.. fucking wow.

Wow.

I’m going to bed.

The really fucking annoying thing is upon further consideration I can’t fathom how scum!you would be that stupid, so I can’t bring myself to actually vote for you anymore.

I’m also sorry for how I’ve communicated this, but seriously man. Wow.

wow

.

this whole post is condescending and arrogant. I if I choose to gain my information from different information then you it doesn't make it wrong.

[UglyDuck]

Do you think he's scum misrepping you or just kinda a tool? @UD

neither? his opinions were condescending but he landed on me not being skum, so IDK how he could be lining that up for a mislynch. more importantly if the answer to this question actually matters to you, you should probably spend less time talking and more time reading the game.

[UglyDuck]

Do you think he's scum misrepping you or just kinda a tool? @UD

neither? his opinions were condescending but he landed on me not being skum, so IDK how he could be lining that up for a mislynch. more importantly if the answer to this question actually matters to you, you should probably spend less time talking and more time reading the game.

This is why tw is scum for anyone wondering

Tfw you know someone is scum but you don't really feel like lynching them

Whoops

Just to be like clear so it not used in case later against me... I do not think that TW is skum at this point.

[UglyDuck]

Do you think he's scum misrepping you or just kinda a tool? @UD

neither? his opinions were condescending but he landed on me not being skum, so IDK how he could be lining that up for a mislynch. more importantly if the answer to this question actually matters to you, you should probably spend less time talking and more time reading the game.

This is why tw is scum for anyone wondering

Tfw you know someone is scum but you don't really feel like lynching them

Whoops

If you are Town, I appreciate the support.
If you are skum, this is a great set up post.

[UglyDuck]

You have to be aware you're playing your scumgame here
It's whatever, I can save it for d2

Edit: points toward the ugly getting bussed theory then

can you give any context to this.

who is the first person you are speaking to. What is being saved for day 2? wtf is the me getting bussed theory everyone keeps mentioning?

[UglyDuck]

Now lynch this

So... lots of number with literally no inferences at all. Math is great, but without your notions on what you gain from it it is essentially useless. For now at least.

[UglyDuck]

Now lynch this

So... lots of number with literally no inferences at all. Math is great, but without your notions on what you gain from it it is essentially useless. For now at least.

Ily now UgDuck

i also dont know what iily means. pretty much just assume I am an old man and know nothing about all the acronyms please.

[UglyDuck]

Btw how are you feeling towards Sunshine?

I never meant to imply there is a 1v1 there. I am just curious whether you feek he misunderstood you & was too assertive with it, or whether you think he did it intentionally.

is this at me?

[UglyDuck]

@Dino correct me if I'm wrong, but since there's a chance of a Vig existance, then how do we evade him shooting a PR? Should the designated vigkill claim or what?

kill claim would prob not be good:

1) if there is no vig then it allows skum to shoot that player (assuming town) and then cases can be made that vig/skum shot the same target (i.e. opens the door for a fake claim)
2) if there is a vig and they claim Player A is target, then either way Skum shoots the Vig
- if Player A is Town then, Vig dies, another Town down
- if Player B is Skum then, Vig dies and 1 skum down.

3) if there is a vig and they Do NOT claim any target, or that they are a Vig at all,
- Skum knows there is a vig but not who it is
- Skum has to shoot hoping not to hit the same target as the Vig
- Also it kinda creates enough info (for the other Town PRs) when the night is over to safely take fake claiming off the table for skum.


I see no point in vig claim stuff.
The hypo-claim "hurt thing" seems OK? but still I just think that it is too open ended and will end up being beneficial to skum. but since we all seem to be participating in this I suppose HURT: Ofrhz (dunno the tag) is what I would do.

[UglyDuck]

Also, I agree with the Dino statement that Vigs are "anti town".

The idea of crowd sourcing the kills is... ok... but bc we have to do it out loud where skum can read it that kind of sucks.

I think that the inherit value a Vig has for the Town side goes up and up as the game continues (because of information gained), while adding the risk going up and up of them potentially getting lynched or NKed. However, still 0% chance if you don't shoot of shooting a team mate.

Real question here - would Vig staying silent and waiting to shoot until a future night be the worst idea?
It might have the effect of pushing skum into a fake claim that they could CC.
It would generate the situation down the road some time where there is going to be that inevitable plurality lynch, and if the lynch is bad then shot will have much more of a chance being directed at skum (as opposed to N1).
IDK - just thinking out loud.

[UglyDuck]

oh, i misunderstood you.

no, the vig does not claim.

ok that makes more sense.

[UglyDuck]

Pagetop

Votecount 1.8

ofrhz(3)

~ UglyDuck(20), Mathdino(114), Oxy(85)

UglyDuck(2)

~ pinturicchio(31), ofrhz(78)

ruru(1)

~ AP(56)

Oxy(1)

~ Scioness Sajj(33)

Mathdino(1)

~ the worst(182)

AP(1)

~ ruru(55)


Not Voting (3): Sunshine13(27), Mohab500(44), skitter30(36) , Draynth(16)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-30 16:45:00)

MOD NOTES

Sunshine13 is VLA until Tuesday April 24, 2018.
I have obviously used Mathdino's coding to use the automated voting settings here. So, thank you to him as I tried and could not get it working when I opened the game.

So the above was the most recent official VC (from like half a day ago or something). Currently we are at:

ofrhz(1) ~ UglyDuck(20),
UglyDuck(5) ~ pinturicchio(31), ofrhz(78), Mathdino(114), Oxy(85), AP(56)
Oxy(1) ~ Scioness Sajj(33)
Mathdino(1) ~ the worst(182)
AP(1) ~ ruru(55)

Not Voting (3): Sunshine13(27), Mohab500(44), skitter30(36) , Draynth(16)


Little wagon analysis to be taken into consideration.
The ofrhz wagon just literally 100% dismantled itself to move to me (Math and Oxy both moving from ofrhz to me, leaving me the only one on ofrhz). AP jumped off their random OMGUS ruru vote to bring it to L2.
Reasons aside for a second - just look at the layout of the votes rn.

I have to write this up from my perspective as Town, and obv there are not a lot of people that think I am, but just try for a second:
- If I am skum then assuredly within the 5 voting me now there must also be skum. But like what, absolutely 0 attempt at a counter wagon on anyone else? If you think I am skum then it should make AP look super towny actually because they could of jumped on ofrhz with me.
- Now, as it happens, not skum here. So what just happened is a wagon was just dismantled to create my L-2. This actually creates the exact opposite point for AP and FOS hard on ofrhz. Skum loves Town vs Town Wagons, so if I am town AND ofrhz is town... this situation should not be happening.

I guess the exception to the above would be if actually 100% of skum is all not voting currently, but I find that unlikely.
Obv this isn't going to mean a ton if you are not willing to consider my pov, but I would give it a read.

[UglyDuck]

Dino, do you think scum would pick Vig knowing that you are in the game?

Hmm, setting aside the “what would scum do,” wouldn’t it be apparent when there’s a vig by day2? I think it’s likely for a vig to kill on N1 when the town:scum ratio is guaranteed to be in town’s favor.

since d1 reads tend to be shit, I could actually see why they would want to wait until N2. But in the worst case scenario (2 mislynches and vig shoots town), this would bring us to MyLo D3.

...eh this role is a gambit.

yeah no, if there were two mislynches, vig wouldn’t use their night action. Point still stands though, why wouldn’t a vig shoot N1?

Here, I was trying to figure out if the vig should shoot N1. UD, you were literally scumreading me for this. And then you go ahead and post:

Real question here - would Vig staying silent and waiting to shoot until a future night be the worst idea?

It might have the effect of pushing skum into a fake claim that they could CC.
It would generate the situation down the road some time where there is going to be that inevitable plurality lynch, and if the lynch is bad then shot will have much more of a chance being directed at skum (as opposed to N1).
IDK - just thinking out loud.

But actually, how can you have such a strong scumread on me (you apparently want to both vote lynch me and vig shoot me) and then turn around and do the exact same thing?

so I mean I put it there, and then you bolded it.... I said it was a real question. As in, "admitting I could of been wrong, someone give me some insight"....

[UglyDuck]

Obv this isn't going to mean a ton if you are not willing to consider my pov, but I would give it a read.

Obv I'm not considering it bc I know my own alignment, so even if you are town I still can't see it from your pov.

Which one are you not considering? The one where i say your town or the one where i say your skum?

[UglyDuck]

Lists are in no particular order

Town
Scioness Sajj
AP
Ruru
Mathdino
UglyDuck
Sunshine13

Town Lean
Pinturicchio
Mohab500

Null
Draynth
Skitter30

Scum
Ofrhz
The Worst

Mod
BrassHerald

You are voting for town btw lol

[UglyDuck]

I know I am replacing out but I thinm tw is scum or at the very least, tw vs oxy is not tvt

I am new to the forum... but like this can't be considered "acceptable" right...?

I missed that one before, I'm going to consult with Assemblerotws about if action needs to be taken, but, for future reference, the last post in the game you should make is the one asking for a replace out.

[UglyDuck]

I think you need to reread my post because you don't seem to understand it, and I was being quite clear.

I'm asking for more.
How you've actually reached these conclusions and why you think they come from scum.

You're pushing a lynchcase not a scumcase fmpov and it's gross


pedit: you know I know how to play scum right

So Oxy is pushing a lynch case here, but the responses to it from TW feel insanely defensive.
Oxy - If you are going to try and make a point on someone they are going to fight you regardless of alignment
TW - No one cares how you played in previous games.

[UglyDuck]

I think you need to reread my post because you don't seem to understand it, and I was being quite clear.

I'm asking for more.
How you've actually reached these conclusions and why you think they come from scum.

You're pushing a lynchcase not a scumcase fmpov and it's gross


pedit: you know I know how to play scum right

So Oxy is pushing a lynch case here, but the responses to it from TW feel insanely defensive.
Oxy - If you are going to try and make a point on someone they are going to fight you regardless of alignment
TW - No one cares how you played in previous games.

I feel mistreated, why shouldn't I be defensive?!

Apologies if it came off as crass - not intentional - but, to answer your question: You can totally be defensive - just being defensive is a universal skum trait whereas the games you played in in the past you are aware of and will obviously alter your current game state to accordingly. So yeah, either no one cares, or more importantly - no one SHOULD care.

[UglyDuck]

If anyone answers on UDuck's behalf here I will set ur ass on fire we need to converse!!

you wanna talk it out ugly bro bro? what you wanna know?

[UglyDuck]

If anyone answers on UDuck's behalf here I will set ur ass on fire we need to converse!!

you wanna talk it out ugly bro bro? what you wanna know?

also I got like 20 mins before the wife gets pissed so go for it now

[UglyDuck]

Just throw words at the thread Ugglez. Even if you can't do a full response a partial one is fine.

multi tasking sorry...

I think you need to reread my post because you don't seem to understand it, and I was being quite clear.

I'm asking for more.
How you've actually reached these conclusions and why you think they come from scum.

You're pushing a lynchcase not a scumcase fmpov and it's gross


pedit: you know I know how to play scum right

So Oxy is pushing a lynch case here, but the responses to it from TW feel insanely defensive.
Oxy - If you are going to try and make a point on someone they are going to fight you regardless of alignment
TW - No one cares how you played in previous games.

I feel mistreated, why shouldn't I be defensive?!

Apologies if it came off as crass - not intentional - but, to answer your question: You can totally be defensive - just being defensive is a universal skum trait whereas the games you played in in the past you are aware of and will obviously alter your current game state to accordingly. So yeah, either no one cares, or more importantly - no one SHOULD care.

How so? Do you think personality and playstyles have nothing to do with the game? Do all scum play the same way?

Explain to me why scum would be defensive here and town wouldn't?

my point isn't that skum would be defensive as opposed to town - the point is that you are aware of the games you have played in the past (as everyone is), and as you do not seem to be new to this... I think it is ridiculous for you to reference other games you have played for merit because clearly you would adapt your play style accordingly

[UglyDuck]

my point isn't that skum would be defensive as opposed to town - the point is that you are aware of the games you have played in the past (as everyone is), and as you do not seem to be new to this... I think it is ridiculous for you to reference other games you have played for merit because clearly you would adapt your play style accordingly

Within reason.
It's important people understand my personality and problem solving style here.

Why do you think scum are more defensive than town here tho?

because skum is naturally more defensive than town? Good town should only care about finding skum, good skum needs to care about looking towny AND staying alive. tends to lead to defense as opposed to skum hunting.

[UglyDuck]

VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy
Whoever is not voting for Oxy at this point and doesn't vote for him on his next post will be considered as a scumclaim

thats L-2 btw

[UglyDuck]

VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy VOTE: Oxy
Whoever is not voting for Oxy at this point and doesn't vote for him on his next post will be considered as a scumclaim

thats L-2 btw

no its not, pin was already on oxy sorry.

[UglyDuck]

@UD

Can we see the towncase wall on Md+TW yet?

I am typing a reads list while I reply to this stuff here, but like I said I don't have a ton of time tonight left.
I have already typed TW and Math so I think it should clear it up without me wasting a page of space, but I guess I can like... quote the game if you want. but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

[UglyDuck]

my reads have changed.. a bit. here is the update:

Town

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

4) Oxy - I seriously do not get this one. They seem to be the ultimate town player to this point. They don't flood the thread, they are aggressively hunting... like simply the fact they have as many votes as they do make me question some of my reads. They could just be awesome skum, but anyone could D1. They could also be awesome town - as sure as I can be if they were to be lynched today, they will flip green. Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.



Null:

1) Mohab/NSG - Mohab was so weird. That is like all I have. NSG seems to be a great gain, but I need more time to make up my mind here.

2) Scioness - Either lazy town or lazy skum. I feel like skum would interact more given how many drivers there are in the game, which is pretty much my only point bringing them up to null.

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

4) Pin - I am taking my own advice and avoiding making reads on players based on previous games. If I were to do that I would put them in the skum column bc all previous games they have been town and I have been town and they have pursued the relentless shit of me all the way through. However, outside of that I have nothing, so null and actually probably leaning town based on very recent oxy push which I believe to be Town targeting Town.

5) Mohab/NSG - I hate gauging subs. Mohab was way to weird, skum lean in all, but new player now so I will address as we continue.



Skum:

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.



TLDR - Oxy is a horrible wagon. We should lynch ofhrz. If not, then Draynth or Sunshine.

Also, to be noted that the context in which Vig has been talked about in such certainty that it exists is suspicious. We have absolutely no idea that it is even a thing. We should probably limit out discussion around it.

[UglyDuck]

Uh oh Ugly is on the revisit list
That is a list of players based on level of charisma my friend

Postgame when you know I'm coming from a good place--can I talk to you about meta (referencing peoples general playstyles and finished games)? It has its limitations but it is a very good way to break past charisma/personality into intent behind what they're doing

The point of a reads list is for me to make sure where people know where I stand on the players mentioned. I did not sort them based on charisma, however, even if I did... like let's say that was my sorting method I liked to use.. it wouldn't make my reads any less valid, as they are still my thoughts.

Also, I believe you when you say you are coming from a good place, so no worries. But also, you are misinterpreting things that I have said this game. I said "I do not like it when players reference previous games.." and "... this is because they are aware of it and would change, etc..."

I did not say that I don't read those games

[UglyDuck]

my reads have changed.. a bit. here is the update:

Spoiler: the rest of it

Town

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

4) Oxy - I seriously do not get this one. They seem to be the ultimate town player to this point. They don't flood the thread, they are aggressively hunting... like simply the fact they have as many votes as they do make me question some of my reads. They could just be awesome skum, but anyone could D1. They could also be awesome town - as sure as I can be if they were to be lynched today, they will flip green. Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.



Null:

1) Mohab/NSG - Mohab was so weird. That is like all I have. NSG seems to be a great gain, but I need more time to make up my mind here.

2) Scioness - Either lazy town or lazy skum. I feel like skum would interact more given how many drivers there are in the game, which is pretty much my only point bringing them up to null.

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

4) Pin - I am taking my own advice and avoiding making reads on players based on previous games. If I were to do that I would put them in the skum column bc all previous games they have been town and I have been town and they have pursued the relentless shit of me all the way through. However, outside of that I have nothing, so null and actually probably leaning town based on very recent oxy push which I believe to be Town targeting Town.

5) Mohab/NSG - I hate gauging subs. Mohab was way to weird, skum lean in all, but new player now so I will address as we continue.



Skum:

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.



TLDR - Oxy is a horrible wagon. We should lynch ofhrz. If not, then Draynth or Sunshine.

Also, to be noted that the context in which Vig has been talked about in such certainty that it exists is suspicious. We have absolutely no idea that it is even a thing. We should probably limit out discussion around it

.

2 Mohab reads and I'm the only one missing. Damn it! Why do you all do your reviews when I'm busy digging wells?

lol I diddddd mention that the subs always throw me off

[UglyDuck]

To what "laser theory" was referring - note the underlining, denoting a link.

I said "frickin

laser

theory", meaning "frickin' theory", meaning "theory on the game of mafia" because you were scum-reading someone based on their personal opinion regarding a role that may or may not be in the game.

That was stupid, and what was more stupid was assuming that I was upset regarding the fact you were taking something from 20 pages prior to your reads list at the time and using that to justify it. This is why I flew off the handle, which would likely not have happened had I not been... well, me.

Which, if you have made good inferences up to this point, means I think your scumread on me is stupid, but that doesn't matter 'cause I'd say that anyway.

Continuing my reading.

...you're stupid

[UglyDuck]

I was making a sarcastic remark, sorry.
You do you, Sunshine - wasn't starting anything personal.

[UglyDuck]

HOT TAKE: town is scumreading me and scum is afraid to talk about a definitive read on me

I am confused, do I misunderstand that you think I am skum from your pool of [Swan,Draynth,Scioness]?
I don't care all that much about the specific skum read on myself, but like... if town is skum reading you.. and I am not skum reading you.. how do you arrive at Skum!UD?

i mean the rest of your list was fine so i'm just surprised that your take on draynth is bad

he basically had 2 mentions of me that had content

1. math is town because effort

2. okay fine you miiiight be right *talks about something else*

And then there are the numerous posts like this... you seem like too good of a player to think that just because you put in effort it makes you Town.

[UglyDuck]

HOT TAKE: town is scumreading me and scum is afraid to talk about a definitive read on me

I am confused, do I misunderstand that you think I am skum from your pool of [Swan,Draynth,Scioness]?
I don't care all that much about the specific skum read on myself, but like... if town is skum reading you.. and I am not skum reading you.. how do you arrive at Skum!UD?

i mean the rest of your list was fine so i'm just surprised that your take on draynth is bad

he basically had 2 mentions of me that had content

1. math is town because effort

2. okay fine you miiiight be right *talks about something else*

And then there are the numerous posts like this... you seem like too good of a player to think that just because you put in effort it makes you Town.

PPE to Dino - I suppose upon thought you did not say that "skum is town reading you". so that point is negated. but I stand by the second part.

[UglyDuck]

I think UgD has a lot of onions.
Maybe hasnt read a lot of wiki stuff or talked through with a lot ot MS people

is this regarding my comment about the blatantly not ok comment from the player that knew they had bailed and then continued to give reads on the game?

[UglyDuck]

not really

at some point i'll dig up posts of yours which present as uninformed onions but i am not committing to a timeframe as it has nothing to do with this game
i also want to talk meta with you at some point if you honestly think it's garbage
it might be better if we talk this through postgame??


p.s. are you a d&d player?

find with post game, you seem genuine enough. also, not to re open - but I didn't say meta was garbage.. just that using it as a defense is skummy.

And I love DnD, I have never played it online, so if you are asking in regards to that, no I am not.

[UglyDuck]

not really

at some point i'll dig up posts of yours which present as uninformed onions but i am not committing to a timeframe as it has nothing to do with this game
i also want to talk meta with you at some point if you honestly think it's garbage
it might be better if we talk this through postgame??


p.s. are you a d&d player?

find with post game, you seem genuine enough. also, not to re open - but I didn't say meta was garbage.. just that using it as a defense is skummy.

And I love DnD, I have never played it online, so if you are asking in regards to that, no I am not.

**fine with the post game***

[UglyDuck]

@UD thoughts on 1305 while you're here if you don't mind?

coming. you asked a lot of questions one sec.

[UglyDuck]

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

I'm not sure what to think about this

On the surface I kind of want to sr this but I guess can see from someone who hasn't played with me before why my earlier, less serious posts were less town-indicative than my more recent ones. (Compared to the people I have played with before, where me not being a nervous wreck is probably the strongest towntell)

So umm

What makes you think I didn't pick a setup without a vig and then push the D1 viglynch idea to PR hunt?

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

Could you skim this (his most recent scumgame last I checked) and tell me if it's still AI for Md? Like I'm not asking you to sr him but I feel like posting a lot / directing town and posting in favor of mechanically correct town play are both NAI for him so there should be other reasons if you're strongly tring him

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

But

why

? Is the appearance of high effort town-indicative, especially when the player is experienced?

What do you think of TW opposing the viglynch idea?

You recently said TW was acting defensive, and that scum are more likely to be defensive than town, and implied that his defense was fallacious. Did that damage your TR of him at all?

Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.

This feels a bit hedgy. Do you think we will likely have more information on live!Oxy tomorrow, compared to any other player in the game?

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

What do you think about her suggesting vig should shoot without the target claiming?

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

Isn't this also a bit true of you though? (But, I do agree)

Like I don't really like that there was a big post promised on Md+TW and I had to ask about it a few times after the wagon on you died down

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

What do you think about my reasoning in 1276? In particular, ofrhz defending Oxy

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.

I keep going back and forth between "scum probably wouldn't do this" and "this is scum LAMISTing" on him

Like his first posts were clearly designed to let me know he'd read my meta for example

His tone sometimes reminds me of scum!me

I kind of want to see him use his vote more tbh...

Kay. Sorry I haven't seemed around. I have a tendency to read more than that I should post.

1) the bit about me and you and picking vig and all that: mainly because you were not the one to bring it up, just the one to come up with the first good (or at least thoughtful) approach to the situation.
2) Math AI from other games: previously stated - I do not give merit to players this early in the game regarding their AI interactions based on previous games. FWIW - I read your link. Noted, still to my POV for now.
3) Math and TW as TRs - I do not think it is likely that a) TW and Math are both skum, or that b) TW and Math are both Town. But... specifically today, which is the relevant part at any given point, I would rather lynch elsewhere than risk that coin flip.
4) Oxy - You kind of are quote block accusing me here. I am not saying they will have any obv upside to another player, but I think they are Town today and they are pushing around a lot. Lots of interactions + a flip equals more useful than players with less interactions + a flip.
5) Skitter - First off. mb. Based on post I am assuming you prefer she and I have been referring to you as he - sorry. In regards to the no claim Vig thing - this is part of what brings them to middle from skum. This makes sense. IF we knew there was a Vig in the game, then the claim concept would have some value, but because we do not actually know it to be true it really just gives an additional avenue for skum to PR hunt.
6) Daynth - we seem to agree. I can't really argue with your assessment on me seeming similar, but I have been told I think more than I post. In regards to the post I think I remember - something like "post your TW and Math Wall"... honestly.. I don't like useless walls. See the points above... I feel like I pretty much wrapped it up in two sentences Wagon timing is what you want to make of it - not much I can say to that.
7) even tho I am TRing Oxy, the assumption on D1 that two exact players are any exact alignment is what you should exactly NOT do. That aside, it just comes down to the fact that this is how skum wins games - postponing games to points where they own the sway of the field. I am not saying your read does not have merit, but when you factor in the above plus the WIMFO of all the variables (what if there is no vig shot - did they shoot the same, is there no vig, etc?... and all the other stuff)... whatever, as I have previously stated I feel like discussing unknown PR stuff at this point in the game is more beneficial to skum than it is to town since Skum knows the truth and we do not.
8) This is just you responding I think, I do not see a question.

[UglyDuck]

the fact that town is capable of having shit reads on me doesn't mean it's not a scumtell

the behaviour is more likely to come from scum straight up

and who says he's not the designated nullscumread from the entire scumteam

if i were scum with him he'd be the designated bus imo

So you think skum is null on him or bussing him?

Also is the top part actually you saying “people skum reading me are skummy?”

[UglyDuck]

3) Math and TW as TRs - I do not think it is likely that a) TW and Math are both skum, or that b) TW and Math are both Town. But... specifically today, which is the relevant part at any given point, I would rather lynch elsewhere than risk that coin flip.

gun to head case one of us.
a summary is fine don't wallpost

Ugly while youre here

lol this was my summary - but I get your point. Gimme a few minutes, I will elaborate slightly.

[UglyDuck]

@ math - if you were to roll skum in this setup, what 3 roles would you pick for town?

[UglyDuck]

random thought:
In a scenario where Player A is Town and they are the majority for the Vig Shot -
a) If there is a Vig - Skum either can push the wagon on a player the field generally believes to be skummy, or they could push a different wagon knowing the vig will likely shoot Player A.
b) If there is not a Vig - Skum can either push the wagon on a player the field generally believes to be skummy, or they could push a different wagon hoping to Pursue player A on D2.

In a scenario where Player A is Skum and they are the majority for the Vig Shot -
a) If there is a Vig - Skum could either bus or counter wagon. But if they know there is a Vig and that their team mate is likely to be shot, why not bus for the town cred?
b) If there is not a Vig - Skum could bus or counter wagon. But since they know there is no Vig in this scenario, I still feel like they would bus because Player A would be the prime candidate tomorrow for a lynch and they would want town cred.

IDK, I am sure I am missing something that literally everyone will call me out on, but this has been my thought as of late.
Since our Vig Canidate did not get run up, it would dictate that whether there is or is not a Vig, that they are not Skum.

If there is a Vig, then they know it, then they push a different player and assume the Vig Shot Canidate gets killed a night.
If there is not a Vig, they know it, then they push another wagon to use the fact Player A is alive the next day against them.

This seems like an unbeatable situation - which makes me suspicious of whoever brought up the Vig (HURT) idea in the first place.

UNVOTE:

[UglyDuck]

@Past-me:

Go ahead and answer lol I don't have the energy

you got it, present-me

1. Pick the worst possible roles. Jailkeeper, tracker, Vig probably. No cop because I'm a natural cop target.
2. Insist through the whole game that there's an innocent child because any scumteam that chooses otherwise is idiotic.
3. Neverbus my buddies so tracker/jailkeeper don't fuck us over.
4. Shoot all the PRs, potentially mislynch the 3rd one by arguing that there must be an innocent child out there and jailkeeper is an easy fakeclaim.
5. Once it becomes clear that scum didn't take innocent child, argue I'm conftown because I make mechanically correct decisions.

1 bad vigshot and 2 mislynches puts us in 7p or 8p lylo. Win this.

But then I rolled town whoops

I don't think ugly is following the game very closely

interesting response.

[UglyDuck]

I am willing to jump on this.

VOTE: NSG

[UglyDuck]

meh nevermind was reading backwards.

VOTE: Draynth seems better

[UglyDuck]

I'm fine, just had a slight argument with my fiancee. It'll be fine tomorrow.

My advice is for you to always have the last say. Whatever she says, your response should be "I agree!"

Town Points

[UglyDuck]

A red Oxy flip incriminates that slot imo.
Also content so far has been uuuhhh...consistent with someone who prefers town to scum...

So Skum!Oxy to you equals Skum!NSG

If NSG gets lynched and is Town is Oxy town or skum?
If NSG gets lynched and is Skum is Oxy town or skum?

[UglyDuck]

A red Oxy flip incriminates that slot imo.
Also content so far has been uuuhhh...consistent with someone who prefers town to scum...

So Skum!Oxy to you equals Skum!NSG

If NSG gets lynched and is Town is Oxy town or skum?
If NSG gets lynched and is Skum is Oxy town or skum?

Independently of Mohab's badposting (which was not the worst but was far too early to be anything but a cruddy chainsaw defence):

I am scumreading Oxy
I am nullscumreading NSG

There isn't enough content there to like or dislike, it's just the slot and her quietness that are bugging me atm.

So I would not draw an association from NSG's flip--she is a good starting point and the slot is incriminated by a red Oxy flip but obviously it doesn't lock her as scum. I was being facetious here

How do you feel about Oxy and NSG currently?

Fair enough.

NSG falls on the Skum side of Null - Problem is, they started skumish, due to mohab, so IDK how much to factor that in.

Oxy has fallen into nullish territory. Strong Town before, but some things ping me kind of weird. like... if you are Town and on the block (especially on D1) your ONLY job is to stay alive. It doesn't matter if you don't like the other wagon because you could be wrong about that wagon and you *know* you are Town. So like... the whole "don't let scioness be my counter wagon" bit seemed like skum trying to gain town points. He has been more defensive, but tbf, whether he is town or skum he would need to defend his case so I am not putting much weight in that.

[UglyDuck]

@Sunshine:

We may still have problem here, which is town!Draynth (assuming you're correct) isn't playing the game, and thus is even more harmful to town than scum are!

Did you just make the point to lynch a Town!Lurker read over a Skum read?

[UglyDuck]

@Sunshine:

We may still have problem here, which is town!Draynth (assuming you're correct) isn't playing the game, and thus is even more harmful to town than scum are!

Did you just make the point to lynch a Town!Lurker read over a Skum read?

If that's how you read it.

I mean I don't because who would say that. But like... what (no sarcasm) is the point you are trying to promote? I am reading it as "you are telling sunshine that even if they have a skum read on PlayerX they should consider voting their town read of PlayerY because PlayerY is not up to speed". I am just looking for clarification - I didn't mean for the question to come off as accusatory.

[UglyDuck]

@Ugly: I do see your point, and I'm not arguing against it. I guess didn't totally disregard the possibility Drayth could flip scum after all, so it inadvertently factored in my phrasing.

The way I see it is if Drayth is town he's not doing himself (or us) any favours, and especially so if he is indeed a PR, so I wanted to force a claim out of his slot.

Update: Draynth staying in the shadows until I removed my vote off him THEN coming on to say he won't claim is actually bothering me even more now.

VOTE: Draynth

And Mathdino already stated intent.

Why would you want to force a town PR to claim their spot? no skum PRs possible in this game right, so it would have to be a town PR?

Also, and I am assuredly not defending him, but just pointing out that I think Draynth said (correctly) "I am at L-2 not L-1, so I am not going to claim".

also ballsack to everything bc this is feeling more like a TvT wagon by the second.

[UglyDuck]

weekends are rough for me, sorry haven't been on at all.
I am home in an hour, I will catch up then.

[UglyDuck]

lol VOTE: ofrhz
If vig exists sadly NM has to die imo

JFC all you talk so damn much. Is this actually hammer? I am just trying to catch up

[UglyDuck]

also just to be sure...

VOTE: ofrhz

[UglyDuck]

vig shot should be AP.

[UglyDuck]

I think UD is a better vig shot when I flip green

Aaaaah, the WIFOM for our vig when you flip red, smart move, but the point of using the vig shot as a second lynch is exactly to avoid this kind of situations

this is skummy

[UglyDuck]

lol VOTE: ofrhz
If vig exists sadly NM has to die imo

l-1 move and the vig call is weird.

[UglyDuck]

I'm p sure it was hammwr. If not please hammer.

NM ia readable, conftown Math seems to accept within reason AP is likely town

So if we can avoid lynching NM after d1 I'd rather do it

confMath means shit.
He is a person not a robot.

[UglyDuck]

I'm p sure it was hammwr. If not please hammer.

NM ia readable, conftown Math seems to accept within reason AP is likely town

So if we can avoid lynching NM after d1 I'd rather do it

confMath means shit.
He is a person not a robot.

wanna make it clear I am not arguing with myself, just with your poor logic.

[UglyDuck]

Morning everyone -

I think the considerations of Math's reads might be reading slightly far into the situation, or it isn't - but either way skum gets what they want out of it. If they didn't choose based on Math's reads then we create chaos by talking about it. If they did choose based off of Math's reads then it is just ultimate WIFOM... for proof look at everything that has been said so far lol.

Here is the part where the noob says something and gets slammed for it, but I think I am right so whatever.
From a Skum perspective the choice of who to target had to be essentially weighed between "Value of Dead!Dino vs Value of Dead!PR vs Value of Dead!VT".
Now, from context I am gaining that Math is a strong player, so obv not the easiest choice. But still... I believe that the fact that he is IC, thus making it impossible for him to be one of the other PRs, would be a fairly significant reason for skum to have aimed elsewhere in hopes of finding a PR.

[UglyDuck]

not taking the vig is pretty damning for uglyduck, who basically just got vigged as town in a previous game

i feel like AP would also do that as scum?

draynth needs to specific claim though

Edit: yeah i don't see why that's super complicated

1) what game did I get viged in?
2) read all of my interactions regarding previous games (I don't post a lot it should be easy)
3) I would of picked Tracker, Vig, IC in this set up... fwiw.

[UglyDuck]

So I also am OK with a Draynth lynch... but to put someone at L-2 this soon seems like not a good idea - unless there is like unanimous disagreement on that.

[UglyDuck]

also, not to seem defensive, but wtf would me/my skum team allow TW to be lynched. Him and Oxy were like the only two players thinking I was town....

[UglyDuck]

uglyduck are you playing dumb or what
you were vigged in this game that just ended last week
how do you not remember this

and glad you could come around, ruru

Oh yeah. Was remembering it as if I was NKd mb. Tbf look at the other game I was in at the time - I was more focused there.

But yes - looked it up - I stand corrected. I was vigged.

Now I still don't see why me being vigged as town would have an effect on me potentially choosing it as skum? I mean if anything wouldn't skum!me want it in the game since it obv worked for skum when the vig shot me in the other game?

Also, I would implore you to not waste your time on this too much. As in the end, my thoughts on which PRs would or would not of been chosen do not actually matter in this game.

[UglyDuck]

Also, I would implore you to not waste your time on this too much. As in the end, my thoughts on which PRs would or would not of been chosen do not actually matter in this game.

how the fuck does this not matter

scum has choices pre-game

That was me subtly fucking telling you i wasn’t apart of that pre game choice.

[UglyDuck]

do you need to be subtle when you're telling someone that you're town

jfc it was sarcasm....

also answering this

uglyduck you do realise that we can gain information by figuring out what different people would choose as scum

I was attempting to make a "joke" by saying "my opinions do not matter because I was not skum in this set up to pick from the pool." As in - hey I am town and did not have a part in that.
I do in fact understand the importance of who would pick what and the info we could gain in regards to skum's PR selection.

The thing I don't get, is that there is just no damn way that they put IC and JK in this game. Especially given the events to date:
- Math does the IC claim- ok so they figure out who that person is
- we go to night 1 and they know there is Role X Role Y and Math!IC - If there is a JK they kill outside Math, and I do not get the disagreement here, but as Math has know potential of producing addtionial results.... why would they kill the IC N1 instead of aiming outside even without the JK in play? The last game I was in on this site, skum chose to kill the IC N1 and I thought it was wrong then too. Especially in a game like this where they have the Day Chat... The IC is confirmed town... but they are not confirmed correct. No one thinks that skum would see the advantage in playing off of that?
- As many have mentioned there was the Draynth L-2 non claim thing - OK yeah, might be skum. but in context to this point... and again surprised at the lack of assertion on this concept - obv they would of thought about that. In your minds, let me put it this way, " if they are willing to kill off of the IC to create chaos, why would they not be willing to also choose to kill off of the next best chaotic option?"
The reason I am OK with a Draynth lynch is because skum both would lynch him if he was town and wouldn't lynch him if he was skum. However, to skum read him without considering the WIFOM alternative is (imo) super skummy. the fact his D2 wagon started so quickly is at least slightly suspicious as well.

All in all this all seems like a plan from the get go and the answer is going to end up being Track/Cop/IC or [tracker, cop], IC, Vig. Most likely the first as it would explain the mindset behind shooting off of the IC (combined with the one kill).

I get how deducing the logic behind the skum selection is beneficial, but at this point I feel like it is derailing everyone. Or whatever, maybe I am wrong and there is some super meta you all have that justifies pairing IC with JK, but honestly I just don't see that being an option.

[UglyDuck]

okay, but i still get your possessions if you leave earth before the time of your death.

gonna set this one up because I can't help myself...
"AP.. what possessions would he get in this case?"

[UglyDuck]

also - Draynth... you around?

[UglyDuck]

I'm ready for d3

Draynth, if you're actually a PR, the best thing you can do right now is just post your night action before someone decides to lol-1 vote you

I think you're going to get scumread no matter what it was at this point

The reason I am OK with a Draynth lynch is because skum both would lynch him if he was town and wouldn't lynch him if he was skum. However, to skum read him without considering the WIFOM alternative is (imo) super skummy. the fact his D2 wagon started so quickly is at least slightly suspicious as well.

Also I'm scumreading this

I guess I don't get why this is skummy. I clearly stated I am ok with a lynch, but I sure as hell am not putting him to L1 before we hear something (or I guess if he like drew it out for the next however many days until end of day). Also, while my reasoning on the wagon is strongly correlated to his flip, I feel like it makes pretty good sense - Either he is Town and there are probably multiple skum on his wagon, or he is skum and there are probably multiple skum off his wagon. I am not pushing any ideas with it, it is more a note to be looked back on tomorrow in case tomorrow I am not around to say it.

[UglyDuck]

I guess I don't believe you're oblivious to Draynth being a good bus candidate, also the wifom lines seem pretty -ev for scum in this case

I disagree about the -ev wifom.

Please explain to me why Skum!Me is more likely to bus Draynth as opposed to Skum!"someone else".

[UglyDuck]

I think scum's priorities in this setup are to shoot PRs and to set up believable fakeclaims/mislynches due to the lack of counterclaims. Doing those things is extremely +ev whether or not town chooses to do X or Y in wifom situations

I feel like it's nowhere near the same thing as actual wifom situations that barely mean anything like shooting a player who had

lucky

good d1 reads

Like, suppose Draynth was cop and shared his result and then we lynched him because of wifom. Congrats?

your missing the point -
Math (more specifically the IC) has ABSOLUTELY NO POWER WHATSOEVER. I mean obv that is not true, but the IC power is limited to knowing that Town can trust their reads and they are removed from the lynch pool. The lynch pool part becomes more and more important as the game continues (because smaller field size), but the reads part has the same prejudice always - it is just their opinion.

Where as the value of (as you put it) a cop, is their opinion is not an opinion - it is an actual result.

Opinions are based on bias (whether accurate or not), and in this game not just the opinion, but also the reception of the opinion. Results are... results.

[UglyDuck]

@skitter I thought you were clearing me because I was keeping track of VT claims, TW had softed VT, and any kill outside of Mathdino would have been performed with the intention of killing a PR.

I'm having trouble following your thinking. Why does the reason Mathdino was killed matter at all?

Yeah basically the first line.

I think UD's arguing that scum would have left math alive to lead town astray (and that therefore woudln't have been PR hunting). And I'm saying that I don't think scum!you does that either.

Please reference my previous post in the day where I literally say "we should stop doing this because skum probably just did it to create WIFOM... but they DID probably do it to try and find another PR".

[UglyDuck]

also it occurs to me that if pintu is town, draynth is just going to perform the nightkill every night anyway since it's not like he can be MORE confscum to skitter than he already is

Actually this is a good point and what's probably what's going to happen.

We're effectively cc'ing each other and leaving him overnight won't really provide a way to resolve it. And even if they can't kill me/math without outing draynth as scum, I'm unlikely to track someone else doing the nk while he's alive.

VOTE: draynth

is it cop tracker IC? weird that is so strange *sarcasm*
also, no CC to either role? Fuck me again, but I think that screams that we still have one of those two roles that are not these players (putting aside a Draynth CC which would have to be looked at differently).

Skum is 100% in a town hard read right now. Also probably Draynth. And no one answered me before - I want to vote here but the L1 this early seems like a bad play.
Should I wait, or should I vote? #Clash

[UglyDuck]

is it cop tracker IC? weird that is so strange *sarcasm*
also, no CC to either role? Fuck me again, but I think that screams that we still have one of those two roles that are not these players (putting aside a Draynth CC which would have to be looked at differently).

Skum is 100% in a town hard read right now. Also probably Draynth. And no one answered me before - I want to vote here but the L1 this early seems like a bad play.
Should I wait, or should I vote? #Clash

Pin claimed cop. I'm claiming tracker. Draynth heavily alluded to being a PR and used that to get out of a lynch yesterday. There's absolutely scum in the three of us, and in me/draynth if you believe pin.

I don't get why you think 'we still have one of those two roles that are not these players'.

Also draynth's at like L-3 if I counted correctly since oxy unvoted so idk why you're so reluctant to vote there.

I am saying the fact there has been no counter claim to any PR actually claimed to this point is suspicious.

And right you are he’s L3 i miscounted.
VOTE: Draynth

[UglyDuck]

I've never seen the absence of a counter claim used as a reason to scum read a claim.

Does that make it wrong? I mean I am not saying that it is a reason to be used universally all the time. Also, I stand by my statement at the time that I said it.
However, now that Draynth has ACTUALLY claimed - yeah it is up between Skitter and Draynth imo.

ppe5

[UglyDuck]

I mean I am fairly certain that was hammer, but I see no reason to not make sure of it

vote:Draynth

[UglyDuck]

good game everyone!

Thanks for the game Brass!