Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[ruru]

When AP was casing him, he did that little passive aggressive wall response (which he later said wasn't passive aggressive). That was the most confrontational he has been this game. I was considering that it might be added confidence and comfort - ofrhz letting his hair down and relaxing - but last game he had that whole, "excuse me for being blunt, but that was a stupid question" post. And here, there is none of that.

There were a lot more stupid questions in 1859 though, like D1 in that game was actually awful I think

[ruru]

okay so we vig ofrhz for saying he'd self-vote at L-1
this effectively claims VT and fucks up potential VCA
remember that he witnessed the falls of drixx and skitter, and me telling skitter she spewed too much
i think town-him... idk learns the lesson second-hand?

while scum-him isn't careful about spewing/not spewing his role

so ofrhz is a high equity vigshot

I kinda think ofrhz is a poor vig shot

If there's a vig and ofrhz is scum, I think he would be leaving the option to vote Oxy open (unless they're actually both scum) as he's likely to die tonight if there is actually a vig. Like scum!ofrhz has to push 2 scumreads today to live if there's vig, not "let's lynch someone in this pool and then shoot me tonight I guess"
If there's no vig, then scum!ofrhz is more likely, but hurting him won't get him shot

So I'm thinking D2 if there's no vig (or if we lynch Oxy and he flips red) then there's much better reason to suspect ofrhz than there is right now? And we may as well wait for that information

[ruru]

@UD

Can we see the towncase wall on Md+TW yet?

[UglyDuck]

@UD

Can we see the towncase wall on Md+TW yet?

I am typing a reads list while I reply to this stuff here, but like I said I don't have a ton of time tonight left.
I have already typed TW and Math so I think it should clear it up without me wasting a page of space, but I guess I can like... quote the game if you want. but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

[UglyDuck]

my reads have changed.. a bit. here is the update:

Town

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

4) Oxy - I seriously do not get this one. They seem to be the ultimate town player to this point. They don't flood the thread, they are aggressively hunting... like simply the fact they have as many votes as they do make me question some of my reads. They could just be awesome skum, but anyone could D1. They could also be awesome town - as sure as I can be if they were to be lynched today, they will flip green. Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.



Null:

1) Mohab/NSG - Mohab was so weird. That is like all I have. NSG seems to be a great gain, but I need more time to make up my mind here.

2) Scioness - Either lazy town or lazy skum. I feel like skum would interact more given how many drivers there are in the game, which is pretty much my only point bringing them up to null.

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

4) Pin - I am taking my own advice and avoiding making reads on players based on previous games. If I were to do that I would put them in the skum column bc all previous games they have been town and I have been town and they have pursued the relentless shit of me all the way through. However, outside of that I have nothing, so null and actually probably leaning town based on very recent oxy push which I believe to be Town targeting Town.

5) Mohab/NSG - I hate gauging subs. Mohab was way to weird, skum lean in all, but new player now so I will address as we continue.



Skum:

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.



TLDR - Oxy is a horrible wagon. We should lynch ofhrz. If not, then Draynth or Sunshine.

Also, to be noted that the context in which Vig has been talked about in such certainty that it exists is suspicious. We have absolutely no idea that it is even a thing. We should probably limit out discussion around it.

[Draynth]

Once again catching up now

[the worst]

Uh oh Ugly is on the revisit list
That is a list of players based on level of charisma my friend

Postgame when you know I'm coming from a good place--can I talk to you about meta (referencing peoples general playstyles and finished games)? It has its limitations but it is a very good way to break past charisma/personality into intent behind what they're doing

[skitter30]

@oxy, 1223

You're basically telling me that you think I'm talking past people and ignoring their explanations. I'm not. I'm telling you that your explanation doesn't make sense to me and isn't really credible.

You townbinned UD strongly enough that you were willing to fight anyone who disagreed with the read 645 (although when sajj took you up on that offer, you declined).

Then Math votes him, and sheep him in the next post, 868 (And as far as I can tell the only time you mentioned ud in between the two posts is when counting the number of times tw interacted with him)

It's kind of a nod to the fact that a couple of my best town reads think you're scum

And partly a vote lodged in protest because mathdino is being slow to come around.

This is your explanation for voting him.

To me, it looks like you sheeped a townread onto another townread just cuz. That ... just doesn't make sense to me. If you're townreading UD that strongly, why wouldn't you protest when Math voted there? Why would you *follow* math and vote there?

Like voting a townread without protest cuz another townread of yours is doing it just isn't a credible/reasonable explanation to me.

If I'm misssing someething, eli5 again cuz this just doesn't make sense coming from a town perspective to me, and further discussion hasn't really clarified.Like I'm not reading past what you're saying. I'm saying that your explanation doesn't make sense.

From my perspective, Mathdino was holding court all through the early game. Mathdino laid out a good defense of his play at the time, and I think that added

credibility to this read by Skitter. In retrospect, this was a really odd conclusion to draw from the game up until this point.

I don't understand what the bolded means. (IE if that added credibility to my read why was it an odd conclusion?)

I find this read scummy. Skitter just played in a game where I tunneled Sajj right out of the gate.

She

responded by focusing on deflecting the case against her. This seems like a generic lvl 1 read coming from someone who should be seeing this as either town indicative or NAI.

Not sure who the second sentence is talking about. (IE who does 'she' mean - me or scioness?)

I don't think her entrance was town-indicative at all. I can understand an argument for NAI, but it doen't read townie to me in any way whatsoever.

Scioness .... hasn't really been present much. I need to be seeing her thought process I think to get a good read on her, and she hasn't really been contributing a lot. I don't really know what she's thinking at this point, and I don't feel like I have enough content from her to sort her.

Like aside from her entrance, the one post that I like, and challenging you on your UD read ... I can't really remember anything she's done this game. And the longer this goes on, I'm finding myself becoming more and more concerned about this.

Also I feel like you're hedging on your math read.

[skitter30]

@math can you talk about your oxy read?
ANd give me a tldr why you were/are scumreading me?

[Mathdino]

@math can you talk about your oxy read?
ANd give me a tldr why you were/are scumreading me?

i feel like i've explained a lot of my oxy read? a lot of the routes/avenues he's been taking don't seem like ones scum would take
ctrl+F my ISO for "oxy"
he's on my list of people to ISO

for you?
- PoE. nothing so far seems out of your scumrange
- your read on me is pretty bad and feels like someone wrestling control of the gamestate without pushing me hard enough to be suicidal

[AP]

AP - he does things but they are hard to parse. I enjoy his memeing but I do not follow his reads lmfaooo.

[Oxy]

The bit about UD is a decent description of what I did. I think it's laughable that you find it scum-indicative.

I don't understand what the bolded means. (IE if that added credibility to my read why was it an odd conclusion?)

It made your read seem more reasonable because mathdino was interacting with you in a way that suggested he thought your read was reasonable, and his opinion of your read gave it additional credibility by virtue of his skill level.

But it wasn't a reasonable read, and I realized this on reread.

Not sure who the second sentence is talking about. (IE who does 'she' mean - me or scioness?)

Scioness Sajj.

[Oxy]

Also, skitter, last game you consistently described my actions as anti-town.

Why does this not play into your read of me this game? Because right now your read on me is basically, "I wouldn't do that as town, so he must be scum."

[pinturicchio]

A Haiku just for you:

I'm so very glad
that the counsel of the crown
says skitter is town

[AP]

my reads have changed.. a bit. here is the update:

Spoiler: the rest of it

Town

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

4) Oxy - I seriously do not get this one. They seem to be the ultimate town player to this point. They don't flood the thread, they are aggressively hunting... like simply the fact they have as many votes as they do make me question some of my reads. They could just be awesome skum, but anyone could D1. They could also be awesome town - as sure as I can be if they were to be lynched today, they will flip green. Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.



Null:

1) Mohab/NSG - Mohab was so weird. That is like all I have. NSG seems to be a great gain, but I need more time to make up my mind here.

2) Scioness - Either lazy town or lazy skum. I feel like skum would interact more given how many drivers there are in the game, which is pretty much my only point bringing them up to null.

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

4) Pin - I am taking my own advice and avoiding making reads on players based on previous games. If I were to do that I would put them in the skum column bc all previous games they have been town and I have been town and they have pursued the relentless shit of me all the way through. However, outside of that I have nothing, so null and actually probably leaning town based on very recent oxy push which I believe to be Town targeting Town.

5) Mohab/NSG - I hate gauging subs. Mohab was way to weird, skum lean in all, but new player now so I will address as we continue.



Skum:

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.



TLDR - Oxy is a horrible wagon. We should lynch ofhrz. If not, then Draynth or Sunshine.

Also, to be noted that the context in which Vig has been talked about in such certainty that it exists is suspicious. We have absolutely no idea that it is even a thing. We should probably limit out discussion around it

.

2 Mohab reads and I'm the only one missing. Damn it! Why do you all do your reviews when I'm busy digging wells?

[UglyDuck]

Uh oh Ugly is on the revisit list
That is a list of players based on level of charisma my friend

Postgame when you know I'm coming from a good place--can I talk to you about meta (referencing peoples general playstyles and finished games)? It has its limitations but it is a very good way to break past charisma/personality into intent behind what they're doing

The point of a reads list is for me to make sure where people know where I stand on the players mentioned. I did not sort them based on charisma, however, even if I did... like let's say that was my sorting method I liked to use.. it wouldn't make my reads any less valid, as they are still my thoughts.

Also, I believe you when you say you are coming from a good place, so no worries. But also, you are misinterpreting things that I have said this game. I said "I do not like it when players reference previous games.." and "... this is because they are aware of it and would change, etc..."

I did not say that I don't read those games

[UglyDuck]

my reads have changed.. a bit. here is the update:

Spoiler: the rest of it

Town

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

4) Oxy - I seriously do not get this one. They seem to be the ultimate town player to this point. They don't flood the thread, they are aggressively hunting... like simply the fact they have as many votes as they do make me question some of my reads. They could just be awesome skum, but anyone could D1. They could also be awesome town - as sure as I can be if they were to be lynched today, they will flip green. Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.



Null:

1) Mohab/NSG - Mohab was so weird. That is like all I have. NSG seems to be a great gain, but I need more time to make up my mind here.

2) Scioness - Either lazy town or lazy skum. I feel like skum would interact more given how many drivers there are in the game, which is pretty much my only point bringing them up to null.

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

4) Pin - I am taking my own advice and avoiding making reads on players based on previous games. If I were to do that I would put them in the skum column bc all previous games they have been town and I have been town and they have pursued the relentless shit of me all the way through. However, outside of that I have nothing, so null and actually probably leaning town based on very recent oxy push which I believe to be Town targeting Town.

5) Mohab/NSG - I hate gauging subs. Mohab was way to weird, skum lean in all, but new player now so I will address as we continue.



Skum:

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.



TLDR - Oxy is a horrible wagon. We should lynch ofhrz. If not, then Draynth or Sunshine.

Also, to be noted that the context in which Vig has been talked about in such certainty that it exists is suspicious. We have absolutely no idea that it is even a thing. We should probably limit out discussion around it

.

2 Mohab reads and I'm the only one missing. Damn it! Why do you all do your reviews when I'm busy digging wells?

lol I diddddd mention that the subs always throw me off

[Sunshine13]

To what "laser theory" was referring - note the underlining, denoting a link.

I said "frickin

laser

theory", meaning "frickin' theory", meaning "theory on the game of mafia" because you were scum-reading someone based on their personal opinion regarding a role that may or may not be in the game.

That was stupid, and what was more stupid was assuming that I was upset regarding the fact you were taking something from 20 pages prior to your reads list at the time and using that to justify it. This is why I flew off the handle, which would likely not have happened had I not been... well, me.

Which, if you have made good inferences up to this point, means I think your scumread on me is stupid, but that doesn't matter 'cause I'd say that anyway.

Continuing my reading.

[UglyDuck]

To what "laser theory" was referring - note the underlining, denoting a link.

I said "frickin

laser

theory", meaning "frickin' theory", meaning "theory on the game of mafia" because you were scum-reading someone based on their personal opinion regarding a role that may or may not be in the game.

That was stupid, and what was more stupid was assuming that I was upset regarding the fact you were taking something from 20 pages prior to your reads list at the time and using that to justify it. This is why I flew off the handle, which would likely not have happened had I not been... well, me.

Which, if you have made good inferences up to this point, means I think your scumread on me is stupid, but that doesn't matter 'cause I'd say that anyway.

Continuing my reading.

...you're stupid

[Sunshine13]

At least I'm still smart enough to know I'm not as stupid as you.

[brassherald]

Don't do this guys, attack the play, not the player

[the worst]

Incorrect.

[UglyDuck]

I was making a sarcastic remark, sorry.
You do you, Sunshine - wasn't starting anything personal.

[the worst]

@both
not at brass
Fight teh autoriteh

Neither of you are stupid you're just tackling this game very differently. Hug it out.

[Sunshine13]

B-but banter..!

Sarcasm doesn't transfer well in text, which is unfortunate since I made a sarcastic, game-relevant comment earlier in the game that some others took seriously. Whoops.

*hugs UD*

Ignore the sharp pain in your back, I'm not stabbing you or anything. /sarcasm, just in case people think I'm actually scum claiming this.

Alternatively, for tw's benefit, like, eff you and all that might, like, entail, brass. I mean sir.