Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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I have no idea. Have an answer for my question?In post 14, jjh927 wrote:Would I ever do a joke vote?-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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evil-duck was an attempt to refer to JJH, in case it was unclear. Because his avatar made me laugh.In post 13, the worst wrote:ALL HAILPRESIDENTGOD EMPEROR JJH
what's on your mind zoronos? if you can end RVS effectively on page 1 I might have to marry you post-game
To contextualize my question - the_worst claimed scum in 9. I feel that moves the indicator (ever so slightly) on his probability of being scum. Ergo, I was curious if JJH was serious voting based on that input, or just making an RVS-vote, since his vote came after that post.
Either a) the_worst is making a joke about being scum out of self-reflective guilt, b) he believes his towniness is obvious (illusion of transparency) and so is happy to kid around about being scum or c) offsetting probabilities, insufficient data to move needle. So, if his vote was serious (and frankly, I think it should have been when there's input to be had!), he should either be concluding (a) or if his vote was RVS he should be concluding (c).
As noted, I have an opinion. I think self-conscious-guilty-scum-in-RVS will tend to vote partners more often than they will vote / directly incriminate themselves. Ergo, I lean ever-so-slightly to (b) in the aggregate. So, UNVOTE: . In a sea of ???, the first town point goes to the_worst.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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I know. I just had to walk back to my desk to type up my thoughts, because ugh tags from phone is awful.In post 19, the worst wrote:
zoro this was not a joke postIn post 13, the worst wrote:ALL HAILPRESIDENTGOD EMPEROR JJH
what's on your mind zoronos? if you can end RVS effectively on page 1 I might have to marry you post-game-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Oh, I screwed up the damn tag.
UNVOTE:
I'm bad at this.
Nobody has struck me as overtly scummy yet but uhhhh I suck at RVS so the sooner it ends the happier I am.
Well, hand me my mining pick and helmet.jjh927 wrote:Ftr I am not a big fan of people asking about whether or not a vote is serious in RVS. I think the faster we break away from RVS, the better, and to do that generally involves making a mountain out of a molehill and then stripmining that mountain for its precious content
(caution, we're going into the intent-mines, where nothing good can result but if you want to follow me down the rabbit hole keep reading)
Getting a probabilistic read on whether or not a joke is self conscious is the thinnest of possible reads, but that's what makes the question valuable.
So, RVS this game was pretty concentrated - three votes on me, then three votes on NSG, then this new train of discussion.
I haven't played a lot on this site in the past few years, but that seems out of the ordinary from what I remember. Think there's meaning there, or just townies joking around?
(I don't have a answer to this question, but I'm curious about other's thoughts and it's better than yet-more-RVS)
So, to pre-flip analyze (which is totally fun and we should all definitely engage in), I don't think there's much meaning to MathDino's RVS because based on his signup post he's friends with NSG, so it's equally likely that's a scum-guilty-conscience vote on NSG as it is a town-joke (friends will look for reasons to engage eachother early, imo).
ofrhz on the other hand I'm curious about. He's probably not scum with MathDino because that's a really early +1vote. The worst's votes both (on me, then NSG) seem like jokes. After all, I started by joking about him, turnabout is fair play.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Think that’s an attempt to drag us back to RVS in lieu of serious discussion / weighing in on thread topics, or just stale RVS?
Your vote cleart implies the former so maybe my question is self answering, ergo this is probably just a log of thoughts and observations.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Acknowledged.
I shall continue journaling to myself.
Dear dairy,
Today ruru and pintu RVS’ed after there was content to read. I’m curious if they did so on purpose.
Pintu’s vote response may have been knowledge of guilty intent but that’s a thin read.
I wonder why ruru chose ofrhz, maybe because he sheeped a wagon in RVS instead of starting a new one, so I’m mistaking a serious but naked vote for an RVS vote.
Your pal,
Zor-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Well, if anything sticks out at you, let’s talk about it.
All I can ask is that you keep an open mind and work with me going forward.
I’m not sure I’m as sold as SS seems to be on the towny-ness of ruru but I’m hard pressed to disagree with the underlying direction. I have a hard time selling myself on the notion scum-ruru would so blatantly pine for the ability to post contentlessly. Scum in that position would probably try to fake content rather than brazening out the active lurk. I think my read on the town-degree implied therein is less than what SS believes, but it seems like a legit read.
Pedit - I’ve never been scum on this site. on my phone so I can’t dive into old games to check if I’ve ever been fast wagoned. Sorry for the unhelpful answer.-
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This is my second game since 2016 or so, but the prior game I played NSG was in, as was SS. I presume she did the meta check during that game.
I played like crap during that game; I spent most of it wrong and stubborn, so if NSG seems short or frustrated with me (see her post earlier that I should step back from the thread), I’d advise taking it as NAI rather than a discredit attempt. It’s a reasonable town emotional response to how much of a pain I was in that game.-
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Were I to make a case against Dino (and note that this case holds similarly against pinturicchio, if you'd notice), it would be thus:In post 137, HitAlt wrote:This gives me scummy vibes.Might be the RvS-mood affecting Dino here, but the tone is off.
Other than his 'I'm not ready to give a read yet' post on NSG, so far his posts have been exclusively about setup / PR utilization. He has not yet produced a read, and PR-utilization-talk is a good way to accomplish an active lurk while appearing to contribute.
However, I think we're too early in the game to prosecute that case, but it earns one eyebrow-raise for both him and pinturicchio.
Further, I don't think I agree about the tone note here. While it's self-aware, it's not self-aware in a scummy fashion, imo. I believe 95 (which you quoted) from MD is NAI. The post was relatively early and I can understand where he's coming from vis-a-vis observer effect affecting his reads.
I will contrast ruru here, since while she discussed (and started) the PR-discussion, she also produced reads alongside them even if I'm not sure I agree with those reads (also note my earlier commentary on her, which feeds into this contrasting position).-
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I'm not sure I'm following - can you contextualize this?In post 138, the worst wrote:reeks of lurkscum opportunism tbh
I think it's a response to HitAlt but I'm not sure I understand the post in that context, so I'm left kinda head-scratch who / what you're referring to and I'd like to understand.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Ah, no worries.In post 145, the worst wrote: This was a shitpost sorry
I was trying to figure out how you were arriving at a lurkscum case on the guy you were just talking to and failing. Which left me wondering if you were referring to the MD post, and then scratching at how a not-ready-to-read was opportunism.
What do you think of MD and Pintu so far?-
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Noted.In post 148, the worst wrote:math is the setup spec king.
pintu is a slow burn kinda player.
have no strong feelings on either of them yet. I don't mind your take on their setup spec emphasis but they're both gonna be more sortable later in the phase
I’m perennially suspicious of PR-discussion-time. But we’re still early so I’m willing to wait before leaning heavily into that.
In the mean time I’m going to try and elicit some reads.-
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I am inclined to agree with your ruru-town-lean-read, for reasons I talked about prior.
Talk to me about that NSG read. I feel like my read so far on that slot is low fidelity, so I'm curious what you're seeing / why you're coming to that conclusion.
(I am certainly a try hard. I suck at RVS so the sooner I can murder it the happier I am)-
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In post 173, BlackStar wrote:The Worst, do you have any reads right now?
Far be it for me to interject, but uhhh that seems a bit of a redundant question in light of 123?In post 123, the worst wrote:@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.
VOTE: Blackstar
Or are you asking if the_worst's prior reads have lapsed / changed since that post was made?-
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So, her case, as I understand it, is currently predicated on the notion that JJH is white-knighting me.In post 172, pinturicchio wrote:Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum
The last we heard from ofrhz was this:Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?
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I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:
Spoiler: thoughts
So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.
If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?
I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?-
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Fuck I said Maria when I meant NSG and those are entirely different players. I have no idea why I wrote that. Previous game playerlist sitting in my head still I guess.In post 188, pinturicchio wrote: Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.
Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.
So, what part of JJH's posts were inconsistent? Do you think that both he and NSG were RVS voting, which leads to an inconsistency with his earlier statement on dislike of RVS? Help me see your understanding of the evidence.
This response is a bit short because I'm working on responding in greater depth to NSG's question to me above: Short version - I don't think it matters at all that NSG ignored the RVS votes. I think it's entirely NAI. That's why I didn't bother asking about it, I don't think there's value to be gleaned.
However, I want your interpretation of JJH's question about NSG's wagon. Do *you* think JJH was trying to redirect heat off himself with that question, or was innocently pondering a thread event? Because if the former, that's a good point of evidence in NSG's case on him. If the later, it's not.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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As noted (142), I was a bit suspicious when he dove directly into PR-discussion-time after ruru opened the floor on that topic, since he hadn't given any alignment sorting reads. So, I started at lean-scum.In post 185, northsidegal wrote:zoronos, tell me about your read on pintu. just talk about it, any thoughts you have, anything you've been doing to sort him, etc.
I figured I'd throw him some rope (143) and see what he did with it.
He didn't come back with any scum reads in 170, but given what HitAlt and the_worst said about his meta in 148-149, I figured it was unlikely both were lying to me, so I wanted to given him a little benefit of the doubt and talk through what I thought was the more controversial of his two positions. The ruru town read I felt was a bit safer / less controversial than the NSG town read. I agreed with it, as I had noted earlier in the thread, so talking about it would play both into bias from agreement and give him the opportunity to just parrot back my own thoughts if he was scum, making that discussion less productive regardless of his alignment.
Ergo, the follow up on his assessment of your case, IMO, is the more productive line here.
His 172 suggests that he is town reading because he felt you were putting yourself far out ahead of the crowd ("such a strong scum read this early"), and that act of proactive sorting / controversial sorting made you town.
The obvious compare / contrast there was ofrhz's response to blackstar, imo. Scum-Pintu would be more likely to have ignored what (at least to my read) was a loaded question from ofrhz since he didn't really care about your underlying evidence (the white knight argument), whereas town-Pintu would have also looked at ofrhz's response to BlackStar and said "Ah ha! More of what NSG saw in JJH!", imo.
His response suggests he disagrees with my underlying assessment; that ofrhz's question was loaded / had intent, and he redirects to a different part of the case than what I thought was most salient. So, I want to keep exploring this line of questioning.
He's seeing the evidence quite differently than I am, and is focusing on completely different parts of your case than the one I agree with. That's a bit perplexing to me, so I'm trying to narrow down where the inconsistencies are sprouting from.-
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I wasn't trying harder because of the votes on me.In post 190, ruru wrote:
Do you think it's inaccurate that you were trying harder because of the votes on you?
I am definitely trying harder than normal.
There is a reason for that but I'm embarrassed to type it.
Spoiler: nobody but ruru read this
Also I feel my tone read on the_worst's scum claim joke was a legit place to start so I figured why not start there and go.-
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(Sorry, gotta run shortly but don't want to thread abandon in the middle of questions)
I felt the question from ofrhz was heavily loaded. 'Why zoronos, defend your read?!?!', in essence. When he's let a variety of other naked votes pass by, he chooses that one to seek clarification. That he chooses to do so suggests, to me, there's meaning behind the specific action he's taking. From the seat of the person being asked about, both his question and JJH's defense feel deserving of similar attention. Ergo, I think people should be considering both if they're considering one. And if Pintu likes your case on JJH, I'd expect him to also be thinking about an ofrhz case. That he isn't does not give me warm fuzzy feelings.In post 195, northsidegal wrote:
asking "why zoronos" is leagues different from what jjh did. it's an attempt to understand, not an attempt to defend you while attacking blackstar. i'm really not sure how you look at them as being comparable.In post 178, Zoronos wrote:Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?
As I kinda-self-answering-questioned at the time, I thought there might be a reason for your naked vote on Pintu, and figured that it was likely JJH was doing the same. Now, 194 belies that, so maybe I was putting people onto motivations that weren't in fact correct. I'll dig into that a bit when I get back. I'm more interested in seeing how Pintu is making his conclusions on the evidence, per se, since that's what will help me sort out Pintu.In post 196, northsidegal wrote: 41 is essentially RVS because jjh had no apparent serious reasoning for voting pintu and, as he has now confirmed, no non-stated reason for voting him. my vote was naked, but it wasn't RVS.
what i don't understand is his behavior after that.
i thought the scumminess of bringing up a talking point that might be taken as a scumtell for me but without actually having any sort of thoughts about it was obvious.
I took the note on your wagon as NAI, since I can see a town player doing a chin scratch note-to-self style post there. (After all, I believe ruru is town and she's asking me about my reactions to the wagon on me, so I can see a town motivation for questioning).-
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You're misunderstanding my position. It's more nuanced than that.In post 223, BlackStar wrote:He said that he felt ofrhz's question was loaded and that he felt like his posts deserved attention. It seemed to me that he was at least a little suspicious of ofrhz and if he is then I don't know why he isn't voting for anyone. And 197 is an ATE designed to make us sympathize with him and not want to vote for him. That's NAI to me because I do that all the time as both town and scum
In my view, Pintu is voting JJH for doing a certain behavior (buddying). In my opinion, Ofrhz's question could be interpreted as another instance of that behavior. If Pintu thinks that behavior is scummy in JJH, it follows that he would be liable to think it's also scummy in Ofrhz (or even in SS who also called me towny in response to someone calling me scummy), or at least be worth of investigation. Instead he accepts the surface explanation when prompted.
My personal stance is that while ofrhz's question is meaningful, it is NAI. But I didn't start from the supposition that it was AI, and Pintu appears to have done so. My suspicion value on ofrhz is offsetting-probabilities, could be scum buddying or just town having a town read. NAI behavior. But then I thought the same thing about JJH's position, and that's where Pintu and I disagreed.
(I agree that you should all disregard 197. That's why I put it in a spoiler. It's an explanation of why I'm trying harder than prior. Nothing more.)-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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I know but you indicated you agreed with NSG's case on him / that was scummy.In post 252, pinturicchio wrote:@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment
Simply put, from my chair if you think JJH is scummy for buddying, you should be wondering about / investigating Orhz and SS as well. Maybe you came to different conclusions on them for ~reasons~, but I'd expect them to get at least some cursory investigation.
But I'd be remiss if I jumped to the end instead of picking up our discussion where we stopped.
So, bottom line it for me:In post 206, pinturicchio wrote: Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.
1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.
2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.
1) do you think JJH is scummy?
2) do you think NSG's case is a) towny, and correct b) towny but ???? accuracy c) towny but wrong
I'm presuming since you already expressed a town read on her that we can skip over it being NAI or scummy.-
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1) I understand.
2) Sorry, must have missed that, didn't mean to ask a redundant question. And yes, that's exactly what I mean by correct. I've seen plenty of cases where I looked at them and went "I don't agree with your read at all, but I think what you wrote came from town.' I realize there's some air gap between 'He's def scum' and 'He's doing scummy things', but what I was interested in was whether or not you found his underlying posting scummy for the reasons stated in the case. And it sounds like that's 'qualified-yes'.
3) I think / thought ofhrz's question had intent behind it (even if he's disclaiming it), so I figured others would reasonably wonder it as well. Certainly so if they were thinking about buddying behaviors.
I don't feel buddied by him; he's been much more passive in his town read on me, but he did respond to a vote / scumread on me (I forget which, it was a while ago) by stating he townread me. He's in the pool of 'people that defended Zor' though, hence why I raised his name here.-
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I feel like I should dump my thoughts from my discussion with Pintu, but they’re still a bit jumbly. So, bear with me.
I think Pintu is seeing the evidence completely differently than I am. At first I wanted to call that scummy, but if I had one word to describe our discussion, that word would be “reasonable”. He never got incensed or frustrated, or called me scummy for leaning on him, he just calmly explained his position and why he disagreed with me.
I don’t really like his predicates, but he was very insist on their validity, and he took those predicates to a reasonable place. I can see how he got from A to B, even if I disagree with A. He didn’t bow or give an inch in his discussion, while remaining willing to engage it.
My gut says that’s towny but I struggle to clearly explain why or specifically what parts of our discussion made me feel towny on him. Maybe that he’s playing highly cooperatively?
Sorry for the mess, but that’s where I ended up. I wish I could have ended up at a ‘yeah, got the scum!, but that would be stretching for a conclusion I wanted instead of the conclusion I think the evidence points towards. I think my initial scum lean was wrong.-
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Can you explain this?
Rather, the adjective 'gross' is not what I'd expect. Scummy? Misinformed? Incongruous? Doesn't fit his other reads?-
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So, the_worst, I was reading back and thinking about Blackstar and Ofrhz, and I noticed this (more specifically, I was reading the combined Ofhrz+Blackstar ISO-thingy-is-there-a-name-for-that-where-you-see-two-people-but-nothing-else?)In post 307, the worst wrote:you're presented with this opportunity
you pick me over ofrhz. I don't think this was just for the wagon. I genuinely think you have me pinned for a mislynch and jumped on board out of sheer opportunism.
What's your read on Ofrhz? Curious how that was informing your response here.
I don't have a good read yet on HitAlt, Blackstar, or Ofrhz and I'm trying to pick apart this current tangle that seems to involve the three of them plus you.-
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Did I not explain that? I thought I explained that.In post 394, pinturicchio wrote: Zoronos I think me being cooperative with you started because I am townreading you (you remember my first towngame in this place), and even if we got different conclusions, I now got a townread on you, and that's good. What I don't get is why were you scumleaning/reading me in the first place; you started asking me questions before seeing that our conclusions were different, so what was first, the duckling or the egg?
You launched into PR-talk / setup discussion before giving out reads, and your volume-of-posting early was focused there initially instead of the other posters. Basically it was the first place you enthusiastically engaged the thread (short posts vs long posts). Same for MathDino. I recall the_worst and HitAlt said something like it's not out of character for you and Mathdino, so I figured I'd lean in slowly rather than going full bore.
Contrast ruru who started the setup discussion but was simultaneously giving reads.
I could have sworn I explained this. If I didn't my apologies.-
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I talked about that here:142 + 143. I realize that's a couple days and 10 pages ago.
I'm not sold on MD's towniness yet; none of his reads so far have been out in front of thread consensus. He's been going with the flow as far as I can tell. Which is a bit of a reversal of the position I had coming out of 142+143.-
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I mean, you're right. Benefit of hindsight.In post 404, pinturicchio wrote: Yes I was talking about 143 precisely, I get that you thought pushing me over Math was more worthy, but why not both? Let me rephrase that: instead of interacting only with me, why not interacting with both? I think we would have a better read on Mathdino if you would've proceded in that way too
Two reasons:
1)
I felt MD had done verrrryyy slightly more than you at the time I wrote that.
2)
I played a game with him a few years back where I felt he was obv-town really fast, because he was seeing basically the exact same things I was and coming to the exact same conclusions and typing the same thought processes into the thread.
A town indicator that I tend to use a lot early is to see if (without talking about it / blurting it into the thread first) people have the same thought processes as me; same thought processes -> same alignment.
I was secretly hoping that would work again but uhhhh it hasn't because he hasn't done much of anything. And now that I've said it out loud, I've ruined it.
I actually got burned heavily by misusing it recently; I forgot that I had written something already, so I mistook parroting for this tell and town-read someone I shouldn't have.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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No worries. It was a very valid question, and being transparent about it is more valuable than a 'super secret special tell'.In post 411, pinturicchio wrote:Oooooh shit sorry you were not pushing him on purpose, that makes perfect sense
MD suspicion is my back pocket read; I wanted to wait a bit more for him to engage the game before pursuing it.
My current head scratch is the wagon on the_worst. Something about it feels off, but I'm frankly not sure what or even where to begin picking it apart.
Blackstar seems mostly legit but his commitment to it was pretty low; he hopped off to chase ofhrz for voting on him (I asked about his 'gross' comment earlier). He town read HitAlt so +1'ing HitAlt's vote isn't super surprising.
HitAlt hadn't really conversed with the_worst much about AI things (that I picked up on) prior to the vote, so it looked a bit like the read came from nowhere. He explained later, but I'm not totally sure I buy it.
I don't know yet, my gut doesn't like it, but I'm not sure which part or why.-
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Not only HitAlt; my phrasing is imperfect but I meant to include the_worst in my vague suspicion.In post 422, davesaz wrote: Just to confirm, you're talking about HitAlt in the last sentence there?
I don’t suspect BlackStar, his part in the dance seems towny, but something in the way the_worst and HitAlt have interacted bugs me and I can’t put my finger on precisely what or why.
The wagon only ever got to two votes, it felt bigger to me I think because of the flurry of posting it created but when I checked the VC it was only HitAlt and BlackStar. And BlackStar wandered off it pretty fast.-
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Talk to me about why you scum read the duck.In post 424, HitAlt wrote:I have no reason to reverse my scumread on the duck.
Based on what you wrote prior, 344, you think he's TMI on the ofrhz (or defending a partner). Since then he seems to be claiming a town read on ofrhz .
You had an early town read on the the_worst 129 so there's clearly been some trajectory change in this read. You moved from 'duck is towny' to 'duck is scummy + [not sure on ofrhz ]' -> 'both ofrhz and duck are scummy'.
(For the sake of this discussion, I am going to assume that 344, which was later than 277 where you called both scum was an accurate reflection of your thoughts prior to 277)
What have you thought about the duck's posting in the time since you initially pronounced that read? He's certainly increased a lot in volume, at least to my estimation.-
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I'm not sure that's a great idea because half the motivation for that post is "Hmmmm maybe HitAlt is scum" and half is "HitAlt sell me on the duck being scum".In post 438, the worst wrote:437 put my confusion with HitAlt a lot more legibly than I would've
My scum reads at this point aren't in a great state.
I'm actually not a huge fan of HWS or the numerosaurus because none of their reads have jumped out ahead of thread consensus so far.
Davesaz doesn't really (yet) seem to be pushing new content into the mix but he also doesn't have a lot of posts, so I'm circling on those three waiting for them to do something to get a better eval.
I don't know what to do about Something_Smart or JJH yet. That said, if I am suspicious of MD that leads me to lower suspicion value on JJH since scumsaurus is less likely to say 'Yeah, JJH will be obvtown eventually' about his partner.-
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Maybe? I don't know yet.In post 439, davesaz wrote:Zoronos has your worst read changed?
So, this is going to sound stupid, but bear with me. They had a discussion starting around 114 that I feel like just circled each other a tad but didn't really go anywhere or produce much of anything.
Then they basically did that same dance again starting around 277 when HitAlt voted the worst (it jumps to 322 because it seems like HitAlt is afk or w/e when worst tries to talk).
I can't put my finger on why those sequences bug me, but it seems like they're more of extended jokes / conversation than attempts to sort eachother? Just like 'Hey I scum read you okay bye'.
HitAlt comes back in 344 with some reasoning, so that's where I figured it made the most sense to start unpacking the sequence.
Do TheWorst+HitAlt together ISO and maybe you'll see what I mean?-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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1) I think new ideas are a town tell. Town want to push the game forwards. If the thread consensus is currently not aligned on a scum then repeating thread consensus ideas is a good way for scum to active lurk while appearing helpful, since they are both okay with status quo and want to not be easily outed by doing nothing.In post 445, davesaz wrote:
Do you often use "new idea" to mean "town" when reading people?In post 441, Zoronos wrote: I'm actually not a huge fan of HWS or the numerosaurus because none of their reads have jumped out ahead of thread consensus so far.
These questions I'm asking, and the answers they are supposed to generate, are new contentDavesaz doesn't really (yet) seem to be pushing new content into the mix but he also doesn't have a lot of posts,
I see the three people you're talking about as being completely different. I was explicitly not here, HWS and Mathdino did very different things so far. What's the connection in your mind that makes you put this list together. Furthermore are there other people with similar low contribution? I suspect there are having skimmed to keep up, but interested to know what you think.so I'm circling on those three waiting for them to do something to get a better eval.
IIRC, JJH said something rather specific about how he's approaching the game -- what did you think about that?I don't know what to do about Something_Smart or JJH yet. That said, if I am suspicious of MD that leads me to lower suspicion value on JJH since scumsaurus is less likely to say 'Yeah, JJH will be obvtown eventually' about his partner.
As far as I know, MD has a lot of experience playing with JJH, for you how does that affect what he said about future JJH expectations?
Noise without substance.
2) I understand. That's why I'm waiting instead of pouncing. When you get some conclusions, lets talk about them.
3) 'People I want to see more content from'. Yes, there are others people with similar low content, Something_smart and JJH, they're listed just below that line in the post. But I feel both have done more in terms of 'new opinions' / 'proactive content' then either of the three on that line, even if those opinions didn't always turn out super popular. (See: JJH clapping at Blackstar then getting voted by NSG for it)
4) I'm not sure what you're referring to vis-a-vis game approach. 189? If so, I found that NAI.
MD's statement about JJH becoming obvtown really doesn't do much for me overall, beyond giving me reason to have some extra patience with early JJH lurking. It also, imo, lowers the probability of an S+S pairing. Not eliminates, but lowers likelihood. A scum MD has every reason to expect a town JJH to eventually act towny, and a town MD would just be faithfully presenting his view of the meta.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Since you asked me about my impression of other people's meta reads, let's go here:In post 446, davesaz wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Mathdino is one of the players that for me will be a contra read.
When they're town they do things that make me think they're scum trying to control the situation.
I get paranoid of players like that because one of my early games after moving to this site was a lylo loss to scum leading town.
Here's the contra part. Since he is usually controlling to the point I think he's scum, if he's not doing that it likely means he's scum.
VOTE: Mathdino
Ruru said she feels like the numerosauros's scum meta is power wolfing.In post 408, ruru wrote:
His activity isn't really AI right? I feel like his scum meta that I've read previously was like all power wolfingIn post 403, northsidegal wrote:i had my thoughts on mathdino typed up in the beginnings of a post going over all of my scumreads that i deleted, but basically he's in the lower tier for me right now mostly as a formality. he hasn't had much of a presence as of yet and i know that's more of a sitewide thing than a "this game" thing, but i still couldn't justify townreading him as of now.
Also I mean we're not wagoning the dinosaur d1 right like who does that
Do you feel ruru is lying, misinformed, or otherwise how does that square with your impressions?-
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Would you mind doing this thing? I think it would be helpful.In post 463, the worst wrote:maybe, that sounds like a lot of effort.
ohey our accounts were made within a day of each other's!-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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Nah your read was lazy. It was like this weird "He fooled me and I'm wrong alot so AH HA!"In post 469, davesaz wrote:The Mathdino I know power towns.
Votes have multiple purposes.
Why categorize it as lazy? I see it as thought provoking.
It takes only the input of posting activity, self-sabotages your credibility (I always read him wrong ergo...), then comes up with a scum read.
Like, I have non-zero MathDino suspicion right now, but your case was very meh.
Talk to me about other reasons why MathDino might be scum.
Or if we're feeling spicy, talk to me about why TheWorst might be scum.
I'm not currently super sympathetic to a ruru-scum case though.-
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I never forget stuff.
Real talk lazysaurus makes me sad because I was hoping to play with town super cool math dino because I played a game with him like two years ago and he got hard powerescumed by Thor then replaced out and I was sad because he was obvtown. We may need to lynch him.
I’m a little worried that NSG isn’t as rapid about prosecutin her scum case as in 2005 but maybe that’s because she’s setting a clever trap idk she mentioned that the other day, but the raw emotional intensity is missing so I’m concerned. Or maybe she’s just not sure yet but I have concerns.
Dave seems kinda like a jerk but that might be town full of himself, but frustration /anger is the easiest emotion to fake so it might be a scum front to avoid cooperating with town. Cooperation is towny imo.-
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You are very confrontational and don't seem to give a shit about thread consensus. Which is maybe fine, game could use some shakeups.
You're all 'rawr I think ruru is scum for ~reasons~ even though everyone else seems sold on towniness'.
Like, of all the ofhrz votes, why ruru's to question? If I were scum hunting on that wagon, I'd likely poke mathdino.
Think there are multiple scum on the wagon? Because you're voting one person on the wagon (dino) and questioning a second.-
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Zoronos Mafia Scum
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How can it be immaterial.In post 486, davesaz wrote:I see it as immaterial for two reasons.
Our history with Mathdino is disjoint, and with no games in common it's possible we're both right.
I'm making a statement about MD's town meta. When town he's pushy and controlling. If he's not doing that I think he's likely to be scum.
In that sense my read is not about matching scum meta, it's about not matching town meta. There is a difference.
You're clearly saying he only has one town meta, and if he's not playing it, he must be scum.
Why is the converse not equally viable? He has one town meta but multiple scum metas? Or is ruru a dirty rotten liar?!?-
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But I'm impatient now.In post 495, davesaz wrote:The other reasons will need to wait -- in fact there is still sorting to be done there. Votes have multiple uses. As far as I know he has not returned to this game despite being heavily active.
I don't currently think The Worst is likely to be scum.
Do you think refusing to give reasons for scumreads and votes is towny?
I think it's poor play but NAI overall. Seem too many townies lolvote in my time to believe it's a scum indicator.
When I'm feeling super sure of myself sometimes I like to 'surprise gotcha switcheroo aha!' vote. But that was a long time ago when I was actually good.-
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This makes no sense at all to me.In post 495, davesaz wrote:You're confused about something.
Town Mathdino triggers my "scum leading town" tell. Now that I've picked up on that, if he were acting that way I'd think he is town.
There exist players you have to apply opposite logic to, he's one of them.
Can you restate your answer in the form of an actual answer.
Maybe I can restate my question in the form of a better question.
Ruru says that MathDino's scum MO is power wolfing aka scum leading town. You're saying MathDino's town meta feels like scum leading town to you, except it's town leading town.
If both of those things were true, he'd always be town mayoring. Except he's not town mayoring here, so one of those things must be false. Or he somehow has a third meta~
Can you explain to me how both of those things can be true simultaneously and still fit your conclusion?-
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I normally only ask for explanations for votes when something about the player bothers me / seems suspicious.In post 499, davesaz wrote: Maybe that's exactly why I'm asking these questions. I don't see it as confrontational though. I don't think I've even been impolite.
I looked at Mathdino in ISO, was surprised by what I saw, and voted there to stir the coals a bit. It's not prompted by the ofhrz vote at all, it's prompted by his overall content. Didn't expect that to evoke a strong reaction from anyone, and instead two 3rd parties decided it was necessary to jump in.
The question to ruru is a very simple one. It was a naked vote, and I'd like to have some explanation. I usually ask for explanations of naked votes. When I ask for explanations and the response is diversionary, it's a huge red flag.
Of all the people on the ofhrz wagon, you chose to question ruru. And you persisted in questioning ruru. That suggests you don't have an active sort on ruru and are trying to sort her? In a vacuum, fine, no problem. It doesn't agree with my take on the game but w/e I guess you do you. But you've selected two voters on the ofhrz to suspect, and that strikes me as a pattern.
I think I like where you're going on the mathdino read, I'm just not sure I like how you're getting there.-
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Yes, but your case is contingent on him only having one town meta, and because he's not playing it you're voting him.In post 501, davesaz wrote:I have never played in a game with ruru.
The MD games that ruru has seen are not the same MD games that I have seen.
The sets are disjoint, there is no comparison between them.
And yes, I would be hugely surprised if MD played every scum game the same way. Multiple metas are a given, else he'd get lynched every time as scum. This is mafia 101...
Your case contradicts this statement.
I wish people that agreed with me had better cases for doing it it would make me feel much better.
Talk to me about not-meta-case-stuff on MathDino.-
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That's why you were town reading the_worst? Huh, I guess I didn't really understand that.In post 517, HitAlt wrote:In post 437, Zoronos wrote:
Talk to me about why you scum read the duck.In post 424, HitAlt wrote:I have no reason to reverse my scumread on the duck.
Based on what you wrote prior, 344, you think he's TMI on the ofrhz (or defending a partner). Since then he seems to be claiming a town read on ofrhz .
You had an early town read on the the_worst 129 so there's clearly been some trajectory change in this read. You moved from 'duck is towny' to 'duck is scummy + [not sure on ofrhz ]' -> 'both ofrhz and duck are scummy'.You missed my very next post after 129:
I had a strong vibeIn post 131, HitAlt wrote:They can def. be chill as scum too, but I have a strong vibe.because they felt relaxed and "themselves" at that point.
That sensation wore off, and I think them not finding a good wagon yet is one implication of scum!worst.
Then their posts towards the one notable wagon today raised some real red flags, so now they are actually a scumread.
..which is why I I put my words as in "I have no reason to reverse my read".In post 437, Zoronos wrote:What have you thought about the duck's posting in the time since you initially pronounced that read?He's certainly increased a lot in volume, at least to my estimation.
Volume is NAI on their part.
Tell me more about these red flags.
I mean, yeah, he's increased in volume, I was hoping you'd have some thoughts about what was in those posts. Like, anything in them increase your certainty here?
Help me understand your read. Sell me.-
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Someone want to fill me in on what 'WK / WKing' means?
So, make this explicit for me. You're basically saying 'He hasn't done enough towny things yet'? Is that a fair estimation of your read state, or am I missing something / not giving due credit to a deeper thought?In post 537, Mathdino wrote:I'm voting jjh because I know he's super obvtown as town and he hasn't obvtowned
We've discussed this privately after he died in the game I modded so he knows my expectations
He understands my vote so he's not scumreading me for it
So he can't just 1v1 me
Alternatively, taking into account your 'too many townreads' statement, is this more of a PoE read? Everyone else is towny -> vote the ???'s until scum all ded.
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