Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[Zoronos]

Yeah, stubborn
That's very human and is between a playstyle tell and a towntell

I agree with the former but I don't think I agree with the latter.
But I wasn't really asking about stubbornness, I was asking about cooperation. 'Plays well with others'.

to wit - Would you characterize HitAlt as actively pressing his read (building consensus, creating a wagon, that is, earnest activity designed to get his target lynched), or vote parking? (Or somewhere in the middle. It's a spectrum, obviously)

[Mathdino]

What does it matter? Neither of those things are scumtells except by meta

[HeWhoSwims]

I mean it's logical to thing stubborn=scum because lack of collaboration but honestly how does scum gain anything from this? Or from tunnelling? It's bad for town I feel but not scummy per second. Scum can't get in anyone's good graces and they are gaining suspicion no? I feel most really stubborn players turn out to he town (see: chumba/Havo in a mini of mine which allowed me to win, yay) and we shouldn't scumread someone based off solely stubbornness.

Surely if that person is playing like shit and/or scum a negative read is in place but I hope you see what I'm saying?

[northsidegal]

See: wisdom

[Mathdino]

people with a super stubborn meta can usually be read by PoE, BoP (if they're good), or just "metadive them and see if their pushes make sense"

derpy hooves in particular is my go-to on that

i would lol if hitalt was another derpy hooves alt

haven't analysed ISO enough to really althunt and i don't really feel the need to althunt this game

[Zoronos]

What does it matter? Neither of those things are scumtells except by meta

Stubbornness is NAI, imo. That's why it wasn't my question.
Please don't rephrase what I asked into something I didn't (HeWhoSwims...)

Why it matters -> scum play is effectively an extended active lurk. Look towny without actually helping progress to a game solve. They want to appear to be doing useful things (finding scum, voting, etc) without actually contributing.
I find a critical difference between a towny that really really believes X is scum and we should lynch them (even if they're going it alone / tunnelling), and a scum that has vote parked because they need to be voting / 'suspecting' someone or else they're obvious, but don't really care if that person gets lynched.

So, to repeat, do you feel that HitAlt is actively pressing the read, vote parking, or somewhere in between?

[Zoronos]

Ugh acronyms.
BoP?
PoE is process of elimination, obviously.

[HeWhoSwims]

BOP is burden of proficiency aka: no matter how long you've been around here or how much your town game is praised, your reads may still be shit this game (as far as I understand it)

Also DH is chumba I'm pretty sure @Math

I didn't want to re write or re word anything you said Zoro

[Zoronos]

Yeah, sorry, I looked back at what I actually asked and it was unclear. I know what I meant but didn't communicate that properly.
Misrepresentation allegation withdrawn.

(I am familiar with burden of proficiency. I just mostly suck at figuring out acronyms)

[northsidegal]

BOP is burden of proficiency aka: no matter how long you've been around here or how much your town game is praised, your reads may still be shit this game (as far as I understand it)

I think burden of proficiency is more like "this person's towngame is good enough to the point where if they don't catch scum then it means

they're

likely scum."

[Mathdino]

Why it matters -> scum play is effectively an extended active lurk. Look towny without actually helping progress to a game solve. They want to appear to be doing useful things (finding scum, voting, etc) without actually contributing.
I find a critical difference between a towny that really really believes X is scum and we should lynch them (even if they're going it alone / tunnelling), and a scum that has vote parked because they need to be voting / 'suspecting' someone or else they're obvious, but don't really care if that person gets lynched.

So, to repeat, do you feel that HitAlt is actively pressing the read, vote parking, or somewhere in between?

I disagree with your priors. I think that a lot of townies are perfectly willing to votepark and feel the pressure to suspect SOMEONE but also don't care who gets lynched.
Consider that scum have more alignment information and thus have more reason to care who gets lynched than town, who is effectively gambling.

That said, one useful tell I think I can pull from a modified version of your logic is
does HitAlt's conviction match up with his stated reads?

I'll ISO HitAlt again.

Ugh acronyms.
BoP?
PoE is process of elimination, obviously.

BoP is Burden of Proficiency. i.e. someone can be read by how correct they are. Usually means that a player who's known for being strong as town (cough me) can be read by how much scum they catch by the end of the game. Or by whether they get NK'd. They're burdened by being proficient at the game, and their scumgames can suffer as a result.

[HeWhoSwims]

Ah fair. Well I learn something new every day

Interestingly though this didn't work for Math in open 719 that I modded as he made Mylo.

I think the pressure/need to vote is pretty NAI. Everyone feels it I guess. I've been called out on my vote usage a million times

[Mathdino]

It totally worked! I had one scum on D1 but got distracted, and was mostly solely responsible for driving a D2 scum lynch

I've bussed but never that convincingly.

[Zoronos]

I disagree with your priors. I think that a lot of townies are perfectly willing to votepark and feel the pressure to suspect SOMEONE but also don't care who gets lynched.
Consider that scum have more alignment information and thus have more reason to care who gets lynched than town, who is effectively gambling.

That said, one useful tell I think I can pull from a modified version of your logic is
does HitAlt's conviction match up with his stated reads?

I'll ISO HitAlt again.

I think the notion that they care more than town who gets lynched needs to caveat that they care if one of them gets lynched. In a static solution where no scum is in danger, they tend to not give a flying.
I certainly think your modification is valid, but I also think there's value in my original. Moreover, while the lack of motivation may be NAI or playstyle dependent, I feel the presence of it is an active town indicator.

I understand town-feeling-alone-and-frightened. Isolation is a strong emotional motivator. When you're scum you have a team, when you're town if you don't have a lot of courage it can be a really lonely process.

[ruru]

Usually means that a player who's known for being strong as town (cough me) can be read by how much scum they catch by the end of the game. Or by whether they get NK'd.

Or by whether or not they rolefish in pick your poison

[Mathdino]

SCUM DOESNT ROLEFISH REEEE

okay this page is not very useful

those of you who want to be useful, let's crowdsource a read on hitalt!

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Pintu

What's the reasoning for this?

[HeWhoSwims]

That seems like wifom to me which again sorta makes it NAI

Sure scum doesn't have to give a flying duck but they might wanna pretend that's the case to get light towncred... But now that we mention that they might not want to do that etc etc

@math why doesn't scum rolefish?

I'll try and see if I can find the mental strength to iso alt

[Mathdino]

okay so here's my fully realised take on hitalt

snip

This gives me scummy vibes.
Might be the RvS-mood affecting Dino here, but the tone is off.

this post is not a very pro-scum post to make
literally throwing out an incorrect gutread on a player who is semi-known to be gutreadable

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

Posts like this always ping me too.
They aren't even that "late", so the whole "wow-thing" feels off.

I'm obviously nitpicking as we don't have much yet, but I'm bored so..

self-awareness

...aaaand Zoro is different here too. (I've now read two games from them)

hidden effort

Duck above is correct.
Pinochhio can seem like scum until D2, and then be such an obvious toen.
Dino likes to break setups so that part is NAI, but I stand my ground on his tone being off previously.

standing his ground, his read on me is actually nuanced
as is his strategic take on pintu

I genuinely think you have me pinned for a mislynch and jumped on board out of sheer opportunism.

There would be easier targets in the game if I wanted mislynch.
But so it happens, I want to buss you D1.

i agree with hitalt's self-defence here

basically hitalt's posts seem like they'd only be +scum EV if he was trying to play to his town meta
but he has no meta, because he is an alt!

he's clearly done a fair amount of effort behind the scenes but he's done fuck-all to make a show of it
there's an element of apparent effortlessness that i think rings super town

[Zoronos]

I don't actually have a read yet on HitAlt I personally wanted to give him the time he requested to present his case on duck-prime. I'm not convinced if the_worst's towniness yet and he hasn't been much of a focus (I wrote a bunch about this a few pages ago) heretofore.
But you proposed a town read on HitAlt so I was ~curious~.

He enumerated two scum reads (ofrhz and duckprime) in a post, and one of them was a leading wagon and one of them was not, and he chose to vote the one that wasn't.
Part of my brain went "hmmmmm maybe scum vote parking off wagon while increasing suspicion on wagon and leaving themselves open to join later" and another went "Hmmmm maybe scum voting townie while shading partner for later bus" and a third went "Hmmm maybe town for going against consensus / identifying someone that had been ignored previously" because lets face it, the worst did not get talked about much after the first couple pages of the thread.

pedit: I see Math wrote a bunch of stuff while I was typing this. I haven't read your post yet but instead of reading it and applying new information to this post I elect to just hit the submit button because reading and thinking are hard

[Zoronos]

I am hard pressed to disagree with those thoughts on HitAlt.
My suspicion on MathDino and HitAlt have both decreased.

No further questions for the moment, counselor.
(I need to digest HWS posts, I feel like I should go there next but I'm not sure yet where to begin / what the proper question is to unpack)

[the worst]

Pinochhio

duck-prime

This is great

[Mathdino]

i'm pretty into this game

i think we have a good shot of just PoEing this

jjh's pintu vote is actually pretty good from his POV

i need to actually get through blackstar's ISO if i want to do something there other than just sheep NSG

[HeWhoSwims]

Care to explain why the vote is good?

I feel as though it's a vote on someone I townread... Dunno how his perspective should change that but you can probably enlighten me

[Mathdino]

Care to explain why the vote is good?

I feel as though it's a vote on someone I townread... Dunno how his perspective should change that but you can probably enlighten me

well he townreads ofrhz and that changes the gamestate a bit

pintu is just a solid PoE scumread if jjh and ofrhz are both town
also means he's given up the blackstar scumread
which NSG thinks is bad so i probably also think is bad

why ya townreading pintu?