Open 755: Two-Fold C9++ (GAME OVER)

[Irrelephant11]

Awwww HEY
I was actually hoping this slot would be Wolf with Shoshin because odds are we’re about to read like partners anyway

[Irrelephant11]

Lol no but you’re right that that’s the entrance I prepared pre-replace in the hopes that I’d roll scum
What’s the chemist case?

[Irrelephant11]

hE kEePs ScUmPoStInG

hE kEePs ScUmPoStInG

Ummm I guess this is as good a place as any.

What does this mean?

Duck I’m not going to pretend to be able to read you so for a few IRL days can we just assume the other is town and see where that gets us?
I’ve read the past ~5 pages, Shoshin’s ISO and chemist’s ISO. I’m not sold on chemist being town but are we wagoning him because lurky nullslot and nobody else is actively scummy or am I missing something

[Irrelephant11]

I hate phone formatting
The first quote is supposed to go after the “what does this mean”

Fus literally what are you talking about in 1092

[Irrelephant11]

Duck don’t disappear either
I saw in JM’s ISO how you’re throwing shade at slots that don’t need it
Don’t call me scum just because we both wish I was your partner and then disappear

[Irrelephant11]

u should vote persi

Give me a reason (any actual reason) and I probably will

Man this playerlist is lit
Idk if I should expect more of my favs to be on the same page because I respect their towngames or if it makes sense that there’s some paranoia because y’all correctly respect each other’s scumgames (if all of you are town, you know who you are)

[Irrelephant11]

I was about to I just wanted sky’s reason
VOTE: persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin quick, prove you’re town

[Irrelephant11]

Has anyone other than chemist claimed
Why is a veet claim unbelievable? My understanding is ~half the town is vt?

[Irrelephant11]

yeah skitter said what were all thinking

BTW I think shoshin is town/definitely not scum with skitter for the call on losing her skitter townread, it was well timed and I think I agree somewhat. I'm still largely townreading skitter tho

Nvm duck you can go this was a very towny post from you I’ll leave you alone for a bit
I just didn’t like you shading my entrance twice

Hi skitter! I’m regretting repping into this game D1, i should have waited for an inevitable D2 rep out, so many pedits and so many ISOs

[Irrelephant11]

Awwww HEY
I was actually hoping this slot would be Wolf with Shoshin because odds are we’re about to read like partners anyway

hi!!!!
it's been a while since we played together!

why do u think you and shosin will be read like partners?

Shoshin and I have gotten floated as partners in multiple games (or maybe that’s just a dream I had) because I sheep her

[Irrelephant11]

Has anyone other than chemist claimed
Why is a veet claim unbelievable? My understanding is ~half the town is vt?

I mean i guess.

It doesnt matter to me much either way.

But like
Why don’t you believe the claim?
Have you ever been scum who didn’t know how to make a claim, or have you seen scum fail to fakeclaim recently? It’s weird to me that you floated this idea that he was badscum when you don’t super believe it; it feels like you’re imposing your own struggles (I have no read on you but so far since I’ve entered you’ve confused me)

Pedit xmillion:
Duck your first two posts after I posted called me scum??
What lie did I tell?
Too many pedits wowwwwwwww

[Irrelephant11]

basically they had a super weird reaction to being voted by skitter

actually i'm over it and i think he's been kinda townie throughout that interaction overall tbh

also @irrel have i ever actually played with scum!you?

No you haven’t

don't wagon persi btw I'm mild town on him but Buj is very strong town on him (I double checked out discord logs to make sure on this)

Mental note

Shoshin quick, prove you’re town

Did you see that post where I started leading the game? That was pretty good proof.

Oh yeah I forgot that was this game
Yes okay you’re town

[Irrelephant11]

Awwww HEY
I was actually hoping this slot would be Wolf with Shoshin because odds are we’re about to read like partners anyway

I appreciate this was a joke post but it servers a more solid purpose for scum (wifom/asdociatives) than it does for town (displaying fluid tone? your tone is fine as either alignment) and the fact you responded by saying you wrote it pregame when my shade on your entrance was largely a joke is slightly >rand scum but I think your pred was loosely towny

so I did shade you to throw you off balance yes sue me

should I be townreading you? where did I shade you a second time?

I thought you saw right through my opening post and so I let you in on my fun secret that I’d crafted the post to look towny pregame for when I rolled red and then I thought it might be useful as town anyway
I thought letting you in on that fun little secret was very towny and incredibly unlikely to come from scum!me as it’s WAY to many steps to pre-plan and it’s pretty honest in the moment
That’s why I didn’t like that you said I ScUmPoStEd after that confession

Relly opening is actually w indicative

Disagree but whatevs I’m not the player in this list that catches scum!you so I’ll ignore this for now

Oh glad Irre got rid of that gimmick alt

Lol not gonna lie I thought about rapping

[Irrelephant11]

Relly opening is actually w indicative

Wait like
Why

[Irrelephant11]

ohhhhh
Lol

Well if I’m right that Shoshin/tw/skitter/sky are all town (which, let’s be honest, this is multiball so I’m not) one of chemist/persivul is probably scum
Time to ISO persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Btw I’ve decided that when there’s more than three pedits I’m just posting away, gl figuring out context

[Irrelephant11]

Woohoo Elephant is here!

Almost have a zoo.

Hi PP
Any unpopular opinions I’ll only hear from you?

[Irrelephant11]

I guess Persivul might be scum
He definitely seemed annoyed at a lot of things?
Persivul were one scum together in a pseudo-multiball, I feel like I should have extra insight here
Maybe I just need to sleep on it

[Irrelephant11]

I was confused why specifically he said that the claim felt specifically like scum who didn’t understand the setup
Which is not something that would have occurred to me, and I’m trying to understand why it did occur to him
I agree that on the surface “I don’t believe him” could just mean “I think he’s scum” but it’s his belief that scum would be more likely to claim vt because the setup is complicated that I’m confused about
But also mainly I just want to interact with fus becaue I understand none of his posts

Chennis what happened to you wanting chemist lynchdd? You were pretty sold on it for awhile

[Irrelephant11]

But also with a million options and the cover of the setup being doubled wouldn’t scum feel free to claim basically anything?

[Irrelephant11]

Anyone scumreading Shoshin here? For those of you townreading Shoshin, what are your thoughts on her insistence we don’t lynch chemist?
I personally think his ISO is worth lynching but without meta familiarity he also seems kinda like low hanging fruit?

[Irrelephant11]

Awwww HEY
I was actually hoping this slot would be Wolf with Shoshin because odds are we’re about to read like partners anyway

I appreciate this was a joke post but it servers a more solid purpose for scum (wifom/asdociatives) than it does for town (displaying fluid tone? your tone is fine as either alignment) and the fact you responded by saying you wrote it pregame when my shade on your entrance was largely a joke is slightly >rand scum but I think your pred was loosely towny

so I did shade you to throw you off balance yes sue me

should I be townreading you? where did I shade you a second time?

As an aside the last time tw made me feel the way this post made me feel he was scum
But this is probably my last attempt to sort Duck for the day, I’m more useful elsewhere

[Irrelephant11]

I meant chen

[Irrelephant11]

*chemist

I hard townread Shoshin

[Irrelephant11]

Dave is a townread for reminding me a lot of our last multiball game together (Greatest Idea)

[Irrelephant11]

Spoiler: Dave posts I like

Eh, it might pass.

Part of my chronic problem is that certain people get townreads automatically and I’m not one of them.
I’m literally clueless about why. But asking about it seems to result in more scumreads.
It’s like my own personal windmill to joust.

will try to be serious then

I thought some of your earlier posting was serious. What is this post defending against?

I don't think you have explained the scum motivation in my posts.

idk if i see scum motivation so much as they tonally feel weird + the way you're so focused on the setup (and the notion of multiball overall) feels scum-indicative to me. 120 in particular is pinging me for both those reasons. it's kinda hard to put into words but like it kinda feels to me like you thought you were making neutral non-ai posts about the setup and you're confused how anyone could have possibly read anything scum-indicative in what you posted when you were trying to make the posts alignment-neutral. idk how well i explained that

i also don't like how you dismissed jm's reads as being not-serious

Perhaps somewhat understandable if you don't know that I'm a highly mechanics-oriented player.
I think it would be quite obvious if you look at my recently completed games, for example Greatest Idea or BooneyToonz Extravaganza.

From a town perspective it's extremely important to make sure that other town don't play the game like single ball. In the Greatest Idea game I was suspecting some highly townread players precisely because they were being too easy with their townreads and too easily townread by others.

It is also not hard to find in my meta that I place extremely low weight on early and unexplained townreads, especially when they are on players with only one post at the point of the read. JM's later posting is significantly better. You may also be overlooking that my position on JM was in response to PenguinPower's read on JM being based on "being serious too early" and in fact I'm questioning that push since you can't really infer if posts saying "X is town" without a reason that early in the game are in fact serious or not.

It's very helpful to me that you're engaging me, thanks.

And my daughter's feeling pretty good considering. We'll see how well it holds up after the meds wear off.

Also for those who know me, I'm a little freaked out by being in the top 3 for number of posts. This game needs some flame. Guess it's probably just because it's the weekend, but seriously I need stuff to read in order to turn that into reads.

"I know I'm town now" -- who ever says that?

WTF, try reading for context.

I would have expected something along the lines of
I know I'm town so I'll push him now.
The now modifies the push in this case, not the knowing.

Notice I'm not basing a read change on this nuance. I don't expect everyone to know those are two different statements. It's a very minor clue, minor enough it could mean nothing.

I get a townread from each of these posts in particular

[Irrelephant11]

Dunnstral and Penguin are both underwhelming but I kinda doubt scum in this setup passes on the opportunity to scumhunt so flippantly, so though I want more from both I don’t super scumread either (also totally I townread their few posts)

[Irrelephant11]

Chemist is looking like a juicier lynch the more ISOs I explore

[Irrelephant11]

@everyone: Chennis and roster tunneling each other weakly: M/M, M/W, M/T, or T/T?

[Irrelephant11]

My vote is on M/M but also it’s very poorly executed if so

[Irrelephant11]

Yes

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Not really, unless you have a question for me somewhere in there that I’m missing
I guess my comment is that it makes me feel like you’re scum tbh

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I guess I’ll add that shoshin and I have played lots of games together, and I often sheep her in the early goings of the game. This is actually not as effective as I want it to be but it’s effective enough and fun enough that I keep doing it
Also it’s always helpful in retrospect because wagons

Does that affect your read of my play there at all?

[Irrelephant11]

Chennis is nullscum unless he has a really good reason why he dropped his chemist scumread in favor of a roster lynch

[Irrelephant11]

Also, that definitely might be true, but only while you’re alive. I’ve had to ignore dead!shoshin reads to win before

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is skitter still north of null for you or no
Also what did I lie about earlier?

[Irrelephant11]

Was it that we get called partners because that literally might just be a dream I had
I have mafia dreams like once a month or so

[Irrelephant11]

Oh hey it’s Persivul
Persivul I don’t feel that strongly that you’re scum
I’m just sheeping someone I feel strongly is town

What have been some of your town-indicative moments this game, Persivul? What should I have caught onto so far? I’m willing to admit if you’re right about this, but what specifically should I be townreading you for?

Pedit: no, actually, I usually townread annoyed players, but context matters. Players who get self-righteous when called scum I usually townread, because that’s an unusual feeling for scum to have or fake. Players who get annoyed when other players are getting townreads they don’t deserve I don’t usually townread, because that’s scum annoyed that their hard work isn’t paying off. These are two examples.

[Irrelephant11]

I have yet to reread our previous games for comparison, but I will do that long before I help lynch you btw

[Irrelephant11]

What have been some of your town-indicative moments this game, Persivul? What should I have caught onto so far? I’m willing to admit if you’re right about this, but what specifically should I be townreading you for?

I want

your

read on me so that I can get a better read on you. If I spoon-feed you reasons I won't accomplish that.

Sure you will. Either I’ll start townreading you for the reasons you give or I won’t. If you feel you’ve played in a way I should be able to recognize as too-town-to-be-scum, then when you point that out to me my reaction should tell you exactly what you’re looking for

Like even if I’m scum and you give me good reasons to townread you and then I do, surely the way in which I do it would show something about my alignment

But also now that i think more about it it’s silly that your read on me is predicated on my read of you; town can be wrong - heck, in multiball, scum can be wrong. Why is my read on you so important to you, given our history of misreading each other as TvT?

[Irrelephant11]

I have a feeling you two are not co-scum
Please answer each other’s questions! For me? <3

[Irrelephant11]

But also now that i think more about it it’s silly that your read on me is predicated on my read of you; town can be wrong - heck, in multiball, scum can be wrong. Why is my read on you so important to you, given our history of misreading each other as TvT?

Your read isn't important. The means by which you get to the read - yes, that's important. And I won't get that if I towncase myself so you can just agree or disagree.

Surely the way I’ve chosen to go about getting a read on you already is something you can get a read from
Also I’d think it’s sort of obvious I’m also trying to sort you in real-time (as you asked), and am partially going by your ability to point to your own towniness

[Irrelephant11]

Well good job you did it you figured out my alignment
Now that that’s over with, do my thing and tell me one reason why I (and I specifically) should be townreading you, as you feel certain I should be

[Irrelephant11]

Correct, in the sense that once I’d sorted Shoshin to a 90%+ degree of confidence I placed my vote where hers is
Feel free to vote me for it if you think I’m scum but Shoshin would probably be voting me if I weren’t sheeping her so there’s trade offs

Fus do you townread Persivul? I forget

[Irrelephant11]

One? Easy - I've drawn a lot of attention to myself.

This is
An okay reason

Like I said already I’ll look into your slot much more if we ever get close to your lynch
For now I’m comfortable being 1 of 4 on a counterwagon from the low hanging fruit with three towny players and seeing what happens

[Irrelephant11]

Yes we do have 2 weeks left

TBF skitter you’ve made me fairly tonally self-conscious since you said the thing about town-me being awkward instead of smooth
The “I’m voting with Shoshin so she doesn’t vote me” was also kinda a joke but I guess mostly for myself so I see why that one would be weird

Chennis have you cased roster? I’d love to hear it

[Irrelephant11]

My vote is on M/M but also it’s very poorly executed if so

huh
ok
why do you feel m/m?

I felt m/m when I thought both teams had three people
I guess I don’t think this is m/m in a two person team
Perhaps goon/traitor but that’s not super worth speculating about rn

[Irrelephant11]

Ftr I’ll also compromise on chemist
I feel like I’ve just joined and want something spicier than a compromise still, though
I don’t think I’ve looked at baezu’s iso yet hmm

[Irrelephant11]

Right I know but for me it feels like a compromise, and others have described it that way as well
But fair point, maybe I shouldn’t feel like it’s a compromise, especially since it’s not like I have a lynch I super want yet
Skitter have you already explained your read on Persivul?

[Irrelephant11]

Aw classic nickname I almost forgot about itttt

But also yes you literally have seen me be this sheepy/unsure (though I guess not scared to form original thoughts - which is also not an apt descriptor of my play here). Like literally I’ve only played this mindlessly a couple times and you were there for one of them, under very similar circumstances: I repped in, gave a high-confidence townread on Shoshin, and then sheeped Shoshin and RC’s reads to a win. I didn’t even really have any scumreads of my own that game iirc, just townreads and sheepreads. Why scumread me for play that you specifically know can come from town!me (and also, it’s worth noting, has basically never come from scum!me)?

[Irrelephant11]

@those townreading DuckJab who have said things like “duck is hard to read but I’m townreading BuJaber” - why? What about BuJaber has been towny (genuine question their shared ISO is long and without context it’s not always easy to know who’s talking)

[Irrelephant11]

Aw classic nickname I almost forgot about itttt

But also yes you literally have seen me be this sheepy/unsure (though I guess not scared to form original thoughts - which is also not an apt descriptor of my play here). Like literally I’ve only played this mindlessly a couple times and you were there for one of them, under very similar circumstances: I repped in, gave a high-confidence townread on Shoshin, and then sheeped Shoshin and RC’s reads to a win. I didn’t even really have any scumreads of my own that game iirc, just townreads and sheepreads. Why scumread me for play that you specifically know can come from town!me (and also, it’s worth noting, has basically never come from scum!me)?

I didn't say I definitely scumread you, just wanted to hear your explanation.

And in that game both the people "you were sheeping" were townreading me yet no matter how hard I tried, you still scumread me in the end and didn't follow my plan.

Even when sheeping you had your own thought trajectory that allowed you to trust both your gut and to sheep their other non-wrong reads.

-BuJ

And I think I’ve had unique thoughts this game too
I haven’t seen anyone townread Dave strongly; I townread Dave strongly
I haven’t seen anyone seriously float your slot as not town except Jungle Medicine in early game; without reading your ISO in depth, I’ve had you guys as null leaning scum (but not worth pushing alone rn).
I townread Shoshin strongly which is a towntell in its own right (easily fakeable as scum, yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s not towny for me)
Also I never strongly scumread you in Duel iirc, I just decided you had to be scum for getting in the way of the plan and Laos because NKA

Also I always flail about day one (not for lack of trying sometimes) and come to life in later gamedays, so there’s that too

[Irrelephant11]

@everyone: Chennis and roster tunneling each other weakly: M/M, M/W, M/T, or T/T?

Do you always ask stupid questions and not give an answer yourself?

I never ask stupid questions and if I always had answers for my own questions what would be the point of asking them

My vote is on M/M but also it’s very poorly executed if so

For Clarity this is fencesitty.

Yes. Thus... the question.
Have you noticed that since then I've changed my mind? I was assuming scumteams had three people. Since they have two (or two + traitor), I don't feel it's likely to be M/M.
I'm just now checking the setup again and apparently am wrong on this again - one or both scumteams might have three scum.
Anyway, duh I'm not settled on the answer to my question, or else it's not worth asking

Irrel's vote on me is sus. Irrel has in the past few months played a pretty intense T/T game with me, and played a scum game with me. Yet, he's supposedly sheeping other players who to my recollection don't have recent experience with me. He should know me better than them, and acknowledges that in 1164. Yet, his vote remains parked on me while he sorts other players and makes no attempt to interact with me.

This is townspew.

Why is this post town-indicative for Persivul?

Also, do you disagree with my characterization of you/chennis as weakly tunneling each other? I don't think either of you have cased the other, but you both repeatedly stated you wanted each other's lynch with very little (though yes, technically more than none) reasoning. Why do you scumread chennis?

Do you scumread me aside from the posts you quoted?

[Irrelephant11]

guys I've decided to start playing on my computer sometimes again get ready for full elephant
just, not today probably I have a lot of work I'm procrastinating

[Irrelephant11]

yes but until I called it out you were overly focused on each other without really considering much else of what was happening
I still think it felt forced and strange and encourage everyone to double-ISO roster and chennis (even you, roster) and tell me I'm making this up; I don't think I am. A lot went on around you both and you mostly ignored it while chennis dropped his other stronger scumread so you two could have vanity votes on each other. Neither of you made cases worth sheeping, so I don't think either of you were expecting your wagon to take off.

so you do disagree with my characterization, then?

Also I ask again: why is that one post town!indicative for Persivul? Do you have past playing experience with him?

pedit: strongarm? I agree it doesn't seem he believes what he's saying.

[Irrelephant11]

I haven’t seen anyone townread Dave strongly; I townread Dave strongly

This was my take akshully ):
- tw

Great, we agree! I've mentioned that I haven't read your ISO in depth yet so my original point in bringing up the read still stands

though I guess theoretically I could have lied about that too

well whatever if BuJ thinks none of my ideas are original I guess I don't really care. I'll get spicier next game phase

[Irrelephant11]

hmmm
Shoshin what do you think of a chennis lynch?
skitter? duckjab? persivul? thoughts?

[Irrelephant11]

if we dont find more scum?

Seems unlikely
There’s something like an 80% chance of six scum, 20% chance of four. We should be able to find another scum

[Irrelephant11]

I townread Shoshin strongly which is a towntell in its own right (easily fakeable as scum, yes, but that doesn’t mean it’s not towny for me)

it's more than easily fakeable as scum; i think she'd crucify you if she's town and scum!you weren't townreading her; it's almost a survival mechanism for scum!you

i don't think you should get townpoints for this

Disagree. Starcraft Mafia would definitely be enough of an excuse for town!me to mull or barely townread her without amplifying her vote and reads
I guess this is only true if she’s not a N1 nightkill because scum!me could hard townread her and then nightkill her I guess
But also this isn’t that important to me as a reason you ought to townread me, I mostly brought it up to refute BuJaber’s “you’re not making original thoughts” comment toward me

hmmm
Shoshin what do you think of a chennis lynch?
skitter? duckjab? persivul? thoughts?

i'm not really townreading him but i feel like that would be a meh lynch for today tbh
also why'd you ask me/ddj/persi (ie us in particular)

You and Shoshin are townreads I’m interested in seeing if I can get on the same page (which is rare for your personalities but iirc happens slightly more often when I help)
Duck and Persivul are slots I’m trying to sort and I want their thoughts on players I scumlean

[Irrelephant11]

rich/elephant - nullscum. maybe i'm missing something, but their iso was entirely fine except one point I brought up in 1204 that they didn't respond to other than saying I was more likely scum for it which is ???

It makes sense to me that you’d be a little confused by my response there
I was being intentionally opaque to see if you’d try to work to understand my perspective
Instead it seemed like you stopped interacting with me when you had decided you could feel justified in calling me scum
What reaction were you hoping me to have when you said “this is the only weird thing I found in elephant’s ISO”?

[Irrelephant11]

if we dont find more scum?

Seems unlikely
There’s something like an 80% chance of six scum, 20% chance of four. We should be able to find another scum

I did the math again and it's closer to a 95% chance of six scum (though a large chunk of that percentage, like maybe a third or so, consists of one team having three scum and the other team having 2 scum + traitor)
The only bright side being that town is also more likely than not to have a medium number of power roles

[Irrelephant11]

Readslist before I go back to work:

{shoshin, skitter}
{dave, creature, skygazer}
{penguin, dunnstral, Vorkuta*}
null: {persivul, baezu*}
{fuscosco, duckduck*}
{roster, chennis}
{chemist}

* = Have not done a full read through yet, going off other people's reads and what has been posted since I've repped in

Me scumreading the duck is, honestly? basically proof he's town. but I can't help it it's how I feel even though it feelsbadman to put that slot there

Also I remain unconvinced by skitter's "bujaber is anti-consensus and therefore town" when it seems like tw is the dominant head and very consensus (i.e. could just be a hydra play to get townread by "having different reads") & unconvinced by tw's "yes townread my hydra partner yes". Perhaps the problem here is that I've only played with scumjaber and have a >rand misread rate on tw.,,


I feel good about most of the non-asterisk reads though

[Irrelephant11]

whoops swap chemist and chennisden

[Irrelephant11]

Eh, it might pass.

Part of my chronic problem is that certain people get townreads automatically and I’m not one of them.
I’m literally clueless about why. But asking about it seems to result in more scumreads.
It’s like my own personal windmill to joust.

This seems like a difficult post to think to write as scum

will try to be serious then

I thought some of your earlier posting was serious. What is this post defending against?

Good question imo

I don't think you have explained the scum motivation in my posts.

Good moment of recognizing himself as low-hanging fruit

idk if i see scum motivation so much as they tonally feel weird + the way you're so focused on the setup (and the notion of multiball overall) feels scum-indicative to me. 120 in particular is pinging me for both those reasons. it's kinda hard to put into words but like it kinda feels to me like you thought you were making neutral non-ai posts about the setup and you're confused how anyone could have possibly read anything scum-indicative in what you posted when you were trying to make the posts alignment-neutral. idk how well i explained that

i also don't like how you dismissed jm's reads as being not-serious

Perhaps somewhat understandable if you don't know that I'm a highly mechanics-oriented player.
I think it would be quite obvious if you look at my recently completed games, for example Greatest Idea or BooneyToonz Extravaganza.

From a town perspective it's extremely important to make sure that other town don't play the game like single ball. In the Greatest Idea game I was suspecting some highly townread players precisely because they were being too easy with their townreads and too easily townread by others.

It is also not hard to find in my meta that I place extremely low weight on early and unexplained townreads, especially when they are on players with only one post at the point of the read. JM's later posting is significantly better. You may also be overlooking that my position on JM was in response to PenguinPower's read on JM being based on "being serious too early" and in fact I'm questioning that push since you can't really infer if posts saying "X is town" without a reason that early in the game are in fact serious or not.

It's very helpful to me that you're engaging me, thanks.

And my daughter's feeling pretty good considering. We'll see how well it holds up after the meds wear off.

I verify this self-meta based on our last game together

Also for those who know me, I'm a little freaked out by being in the top 3 for number of posts. This game needs some flame. Guess it's probably just because it's the weekend, but seriously I need stuff to read in order to turn that into reads.

I don't think scum!dave posts so much he freaks himself out (maybe I'm wrong but that's atypical for anyone as scum)

"I know I'm town now" -- who ever says that?

WTF, try reading for context.

I would have expected something along the lines of
I know I'm town so I'll push him now.
The now modifies the push in this case, not the knowing.

Notice I'm not basing a read change on this nuance. I don't expect everyone to know those are two different statements. It's a very minor clue, minor enough it could mean nothing.

The way he doesn't blow this out of proportion (as scum are usually looking to do) but instead downplays his own point feels like town trying to be accurate

Also learning that davesaz is a generation older than most players here makes me think the reason he's not widely townread is for tone more than scummy play

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah OK I believe that.

Maybe I should just ask you to towncase everyone other than the scum?

lol I mean I'm definitely going to tryhard more over time. busy day at work today tho

Readslist before I go back to work:

{shoshin, skitter}
{dave, creature, skygazer}
{penguin, dunnstral, Vorkuta*}
null: {persivul, baezu*}
{fuscosco, duckduck*}
{roster, chennis}
{chemist}
h

What has PP or Dunn done for a read? This list looks nice enough overall though, but i def contest a dew things.

both of those reads are tone reads, + I don't think they're scum together or traitors
They'll both move down over time if they continue not to post

[Irrelephant11]

so you don't actually disagree with my reads for the most part, you'd just like me to feel less strongly about my townreads?

I have struggled to read Persivul in the past because of personality differences. Sometimes this game I feel he is towny, other times I feel he is scummy. I have respect for his scumgame, which makes him hard to read, too. It's easiest for me to describe that as null.

Why should I townread chen? His reads don't seem to matter to him (see: how he almost hammered chemist and then later just sorta... forgot that read in favor of starting a vanity wagon on roster)

[Irrelephant11]

I dont see it as any less viable than mine on bae.

I don't see your play around chemist as similar at all.

I do think its off that you keep trying to characterize me as agenda-driven

I have?

[Irrelephant11]

Do you think the increasing suspicion on rooster has caused him to come and post more?

yes

[Irrelephant11]

I can see how this

so you don't actually disagree with my reads for the most part, you'd just like me to feel less strongly about my townreads?

would make you feel this way:

I do think its off that you keep trying to characterize me as agenda-driven

(even though it's a question I really was expecting an answer to)
but when else have I done what you say I "keep doing"?

[Irrelephant11]

Well, I took a second to think about that, and if Im reading the setup right there are 4-6 scum here, and you have 5 scumreads.\

so is that a "yes"?
5 scumreads and a couple nullreads is about right for this setup, no?

I don't see your play around chemist as similar at all.

Im not quite sure i see what you mean. I just saw a push.

I'm saying

the way

chennis dropped chemist for his roster push is not similar to the way you moved from chemist to baezu, which is why I scumread chennis more than you.
you think chennis is town?

[Irrelephant11]

Because skitter and Shoshin both are, yes

[Irrelephant11]

Should I not? I can stop if you want

[Irrelephant11]

dave would you mind talking to me abt what you're seeing w/ chemist? If you need some talking points and prompts lmk and I'll provide!

It’s more like not seeing probably. Like what are people who scumread chemist seeing?

A lot of apologies for not playing and not much else

[Irrelephant11]

this is BuJaber posting ofc

Lol
Your ISO is long and I’ve been saving it for last
I might come around
If you’re scum this wouldn’t be the first time you were town leader though, so I’m not sure why I should be townreading you for forming consensus

[Irrelephant11]

this is BuJaber posting ofc

Lol
Your ISO is long and I’ve been saving it for last
I might come around
If you’re scum this wouldn’t be the first time you were town leader though, so I’m not sure why I should be townreading you for forming consensus

I'm not sure why you should be scumreading me for consensus reads when I wrote the consensus. you're confbiasing me as scum and it's difficult for me to parse whether it's agenda driven or paranoia driven. I mostly townread you rn but this is definitely the dampener and it's vexing.

Oh
I... don’t scumread you for consensus reads (did I say that I did?)
I just don’t townread you for them
I think you’ve misunderstood me somewhere
Skitter said she townreads Buj for non-consensus reads and I pointed out that if your slot is scum, buj can kinda have whatever reads will make the slot look towny, since you’re the hydra head more people are listening to. That’s the only reason I brought up your reads being kinda consensus-y, which for you I’m not sure is AI in this context

[Irrelephant11]

?? why

Im just trying to pick irre's head. If chem flips red in multiball, is chen more likely town to irre?

Is chen being oppurtunist?

If chemist flips red, Chen is probably not red
Could be green, could be orange, idk

[Irrelephant11]

?? why

Im just trying to pick irre's head. If chem flips red in multiball, is chen more likely town to irre?

Is chen being oppurtunist?

If chemist flips red, Chen is probably not red
Could be green, could be orange, idk

This sort of pre-flip analysis is kinda pointless tho
What’s your list of potential lynches for today, fus?

[Irrelephant11]

What’s your list of potential lynches for today, fus?

you gotta read man. Ive said this three times now, if you include this latest time.

I literally can’t find this in your ISO

[Irrelephant11]

ummmm anyone else i have said i tr.

Do you mean anyone else you have said you scumread?
This is nearly half the playerlist
What did you think of my dave towncase

[Irrelephant11]

The fact we're super obvtown yet are struggling to get townread is pretty towntelling lfmao

anyway I'll stop rambling about how town we are

BuJ and I agree on a scumread. who wants to guess who it is?

You’re struggling to get townread by others? Who else scumreads you here?

Is your scumread roster

[Irrelephant11]

Oh I mean duh you’re willing to lynch anyone below a nullread
Reads are literally always changing (I’ve seen you update yours multiple times in the last few pages) so forgive me if I didn’t keep Perfect track of who was below null for you and wanted a summary

[Irrelephant11]

Sure, you have my permission to engage me

will you marry me

[Irrelephant11]

Roster the Penguin!

[Irrelephant11]

Rooster
Dang that was gonna be funny

[Irrelephant11]

Persivul – 4/9 – Skygazer, Shoshin, Vorkuta, Irrelephant11

i still townread everyone on here except maybe irrel but i don't really think persi is scum here so

I think the fact that this wagon is likely all town is kinda scum indicative for persivul tbh
This is sorta dependent on me being town but even if I'm scum this wagon seems a lot harder to get off the ground than, say, chemist was.
I can see why you and a couple others are townreading him, though I think the reasons are kinda meh (iirc you're townreading him for being upset that you scumread him based on false meta? I've gotten genuinely upset about that as scum before. And others are townreading him for hunting, which, multiball)
I don't feel confident that he's scum but the more people chime in with things like

Irrel's vote on me is sus. Irrel has in the past few months played a pretty intense T/T game with me, and played a scum game with me. Yet, he's supposedly sheeping other players who to my recollection don't have recent experience with me. He should know me better than them, and acknowledges that in 1164. Yet, his vote remains parked on me while he sorts other players and makes no attempt to interact with me.

This is townspew.

the more I feel Persivul's high standing comes from the unwillingness of partners to bus rather than his own must-be-town play

[Irrelephant11]

Putting all of that^ another way, if Persivul is town why does his wagon stall out after four townies?

skitter wanna do an experiment with me and vote persivul for a bit?

[Irrelephant11]

Can we activate/engage dunn first?

Sure, you have my permission to engage me

wanna vote persivul?

@Penguin come vote persivul

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Penguin

[Irrelephant11]

Lol why was no one playing until a Penguin wagon showed up
UNVOTE: i don’t trust scum to not get trigger happy

Hi PP
Got any new reads? Your wagon was intteresting

[Irrelephant11]

Your confidence and ability to scumcase town
Also I think we distanced well in our scum game together

I'm coming around to you being more likely town (or skitter's scum) but I don't think you're someone who's an easy read

[Irrelephant11]

shoshin I would normally expect you to be working to get your preferred lynch, appealing to specific people and dragging their votes to your fav wagon.
where you at?

Something I'm realizing I like about multiball is I can work with anyone in the game to scumhunt - even people I'm right are scum! fun

[Irrelephant11]

I wanted to point out PP lurking possibly being AI but you beat me to it.
VOTE: PenguinPower

keeping the vote streak going because why not
VOTE: pp

VOTE: penguin

VOTE: PenguinPower

VOTE: pp

L-2

I'm gonna go ahead and guess 2-3 of these votes came from scum

[Irrelephant11]

seriously, why the unvote irre?

it's l-2
we want him to claim and play
you started this. did you not want a real wagon? this flashagon was super satisfying to see and be on

I don't necessarily want him to claim
I do want him to play
I think his wagon has grown enough for him to start playing and I want to prevent a quick mislynch from opportunistic scum
It's pretty straightforward, actually, and I've said some of this already. What part of the reasoning my unvote wasn't obvious to you?

Also skitter started this.

Hi creature! yes I'm town

[Irrelephant11]

that reaction from pp is crap

I agree with this, but on the other hand wouldn't scum... you know... try harder?
Man I'm gonna look scummy if Penguin flips red but I just feel really bad about the way this wagon has gone down so far, page 60 is like the definition of opportunism
I guess there's enough scum in this game that this speedy wagon isn't

necessarily

town indicative for Penguin, but it still feels like it

probably

is

[Irrelephant11]

We can discuss penguin species?

I know you said no new solid reads, but could you give a readslist? I'd like to know where your head is at even if you don't have anything you're certain of.

creature what are your thoughts on the penguin wagon?

[Irrelephant11]

Lol why was no one playing until a Penguin wagon showed up
UNVOTE: i don’t trust scum to not get trigger happy

Hi PP
Got any new reads? Your wagon was intteresting

Feels informed (specifically not wanting scum to be trigger happy implies expecting the wagoned to be town), though in a MB game it's harder to tell.

I mean I don't think the wagon is all town but I do think there's at least two scum off wagon still, given there's almost certainly 6 scum total

[Irrelephant11]

but good point I guess that, given my read that the wagon is made up of scum, it's less likely there are scum out there who will quickhammer?
Not that exciting a point, though. There are town who would quickhammer town given the opportunity; it was a quicklynch I was trying to avoid regardless of who would do it

[Irrelephant11]

I don't do reads lists unless Vedith is in the game and they are rainbow in color.

I like Duck and you. I don't like Fuscosco or Chemist.

Creature is probably town.

This is where I'm at.

davesaz do you think this post is scum or town?
It reads towny to me but I could be being pocketed a little bit (I like the penguin, I think he knows it)

[Irrelephant11]

A lot of lurkers coming out of yhe woodwork to vote him is ??????

Yes I think this is my problem - not just that we did a flashwagon but that lurkers appeared out of nowhere to participate in it

I kinda changed my mind on fuscosco and i think he might be town now actually

Would like to hear more about this because I've felt for awhile that he's been needlessly shading me but if he's town maybe he just actually scumreads me... please say more

Sure it was. No new solid read atm.

I have two questions out that I still want answered.

I think I have one for chenn but not sure how to phrase it atm.

Also:

A) i feel like this flashwagon is something of note, and is something he can def use to form reads - i dislike that it hasnt really impacted his reads much at all. I feel like town getting flashwagoned tries to find if any scum are pushing it but he's not. Like it hasnt seemed to have any impact to his approach to the game

B) why are these two questions important

C) i feel like scum!you is significantly more likely to lurk and/or go inactive and/or deprioritize this game

These are good points and I've tried to save scum from a lynch because I didn't like the wagon before... but also I don't get any sense of survivalism or agenda from anything Penguin has posted all game

Lol why was no one playing until a Penguin wagon showed up
UNVOTE: i don’t trust scum to not get trigger happy

Hi PP
Got any new reads? Your wagon was intteresting

If scum is on the wagon where's the scum that are going to lolhammer?

Like I said before, there's a 95% change of 6 scum. I don't think the six votes besides mine were all scum (for example, I townread both you and dave). But if, say, one more townie voted and then scum hammered, they'd be able to "justify" hammering such a lurky slot

Your confidence and ability to scumcase town
Also I think we distanced well in our scum game together

I'm coming around to you being more likely town (or skitter's scum) but I don't think you're someone who's an easy read

Why are you coming around to town!persy?

Because of your towncase

that reaction from pp is crap

I agree with this, but on the other hand wouldn't scum... you know... try harder?
Man I'm gonna look scummy if Penguin flips red but

I just feel really bad about the way this wagon has gone down so far,

page 60 is like the definition of opportunism
I guess there's enough scum in this game that this speedy wagon isn't

necessarily

town indicative for Penguin, but it still feels like it

probably

is

... what did you think was going to come out of a pressure flashwagon?

tbh I wasn't expecting a flashwagon; most wagons this game have seemed to be driven uphill, whereas this one went "0 to 100" in literally 12 hours

Pongwin is scum, let's just do this.

why do you think his wagon grew so quickly while chemist was basically unlynchable with a roughly equally scummy ISO?

I also don't like dave's slot but that's for tomorrow.

this is a bad scumread and you should feel bad

skitter I think that if you think about 1566 longer you'll see it's a potential towncase for Penguin in this game

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: dunnstral[

[Irrelephant11]

Read 59 and 60 for a quick update

[Irrelephant11]

I mean those two pages are what everyone’s talking about rn
We all agree the wagon includes some scum
I feel like the speed of the wagon is town indicative for Penguin, because no other wagon has formed that quickly this game i don’t think
But I mean maybe he’s scum, wouldn’t be the first time I unvoted scum and started defending them as town

[Irrelephant11]

I think the fact that this wagon is likely all town is kinda scum indicative for persivul tbh

since when is an all town wagon indicative of the wagoned party being scum? Legit intrigued, I have a poignantly different opinion (doesn't apply in multiball tho I guess)

Yes, game-specific thought here
If a wagon forms on a townie and 4/9 of the remaining townies vote them, that would look extremely appealing to scum, no? I would expect at least one scum to jump on that
Duck, Baezu, no thoughts on the Penguin wagon??

[Irrelephant11]

Relly one thing that's striking me this game is you're tryharding a lot harder than you usually tryhard

I wanna townread it at a surface level but the deeper into quack madness I go the more I feel like you might be trying to overcorrect for how cruisey you were last time I played with scum you

if I'm overthinking myself into the void please convince me

I mean I’ve started playing on my computer this game
I forget if I was on computer or mobile that game but that could literally be the whole difference?
But also I’ve been trying to channel Watchmen Wanted-me
I don’t feel like I’m playing at a level of tryhard that is new for either alignment tbh so idk maybe do some meta reads of me if you have time and decide for yourself

[Irrelephant11]

Duck, Baezu, no thoughts on the Penguin wagon??

Exciting lurker wagon!!! Wow!!!

I mean
I thought the list of voters was pretty interesting, but

[Irrelephant11]

I’m willing to hammer chemist at some point but not sure I want day to end
Though you’ve all been playing this game much longer than me so maybe that’s just me
Still not gonna hammer right now I think

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: dunnstral
I am ambivalent about massclaim
I’m not sure how we’d decide an order though

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Persivul

I would like to hear your reason for this vote plz

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: dunnstral
I am ambivalent about massclaim
I’m not sure how we’d decide an order though

Why dunn?

Because imo dunnstral and penguin were playing the same lurky game for most of D1
When we wagoned Penguin, every scummy lurker came out of the woodwork to vote him (including dunnstral)
When we wagoned Dunnstral, we couldn't get a third vote and chemist almost immediately got lynched

[Irrelephant11]

PenguinPower – 7/9 –

Creature, Skitter30, davesaz,

Skygazer

,

Baezu

,

Dunnstral

,

Fuscosco

L-2

I disagree that this wagon should continue (red coloring from my reads)

[Irrelephant11]

two votes are from the 1200s, and one is from bae voting the newest fad like a slinky snake trying to blend in.

Can all these baby vanity wagon voters condense into a rope so we can end the day, and the night, by the end of Easter Weekend?

Why do we want to do this? We have plenty of time left in the day

eh baezu might be town

My read of the gamestate eod1 was scum was antsy to get their mislynch in before scum got their act together
I regret not trying to stop the chemist lynch, especially now knowing that shoshin is siteflaking, not gameflaking. sigh

[Irrelephant11]

anyway,

I'm getting my dunnstral lynch today, unless his claim is amazing or he nails scum with an extremely strong case

[Irrelephant11]

dave, penguin, creature, persivul, skitter, Vorkuta, please vote dunnstral

btw I've decided persivul might be scum but I would heavily scumread skitter if so
their d1 play actually reminds me a little of how persivul and I used our meta history to distance as scum, and persivul didn't know for most of d1 that I would rep in and see it, so it's plausible he'd repeat what worked for him then
but also maybe they're both just town and that's what I'm gonna go with for now

[Irrelephant11]

My read of the gamestate eod1 was scum was antsy to get their mislynch in before scum got their act together

before TOWN* got their act together

[Irrelephant11]

dave, penguin, creature, persivul, skitter, Vorkuta, please vote dunnstral

I'd like to see what creature and skitter have to say about this.

I mean.... okay
Why?

[Irrelephant11]

Yes, but dunn plays lurky as town.

This is easily verifiable and mostly true
But also not the only reason I scumread him, since the main thing is how other players treated the slot *given* his lurkiness
I will think more on this but I would like dunnstral wagoned anyway

[Irrelephant11]

FTR the fact scum makes up 42% of the game on D2 after a successful nightkill block of some sort is really annoying
I usually trust open setups but I might just not like this one
Even if we lynch correctly the nightkills could bring us to 6v3v2 tomorrow which is even more stupid
Yeah I'm annoyed, but
I'll suck it up I guess

[Irrelephant11]

I mean.... okay
Why?

Because they typically have better tone reads than I do. So, their reads on dunn will inform my read on dunn and/or my reads on them.

Eh this is fair and something I believe you believe

[Irrelephant11]

I mean.... okay
Why?

Because they typically have better tone reads than I do. So, their reads on dunn will inform my read on dunn and/or my reads on them.

how do you feel about the fact they both wanted the chemist lynch

[Irrelephant11]

Because your lack of activity and the fact that it's multiball (the only context where I've misread you before) made me paranoid you were scum
I realized during the night phase your lack of activity att was sitewide and regretted my play re:chemist wagon very much

[Irrelephant11]

ftr I thought you were going to be replaced in this game, Shoshin, and was gearing up to fill your shoes
Had I noticed sooner your sitewide activity I would have done what I could to prevent the chemist lynch

[Irrelephant11]

ftr I thought you were going to be replaced in this game, Shoshin, and was gearing up to fill your shoes

here I'm referring to this game day

Had I noticed sooner your sitewide activity I would have done what I could to prevent the chemist lynch

here I'm referring to last game day

Nothing about chemist felt towny to me, and his repeated apologies for lack of play plus lame attempt at reading me (he said I did a single weird thing in an otherwise towny ISO, I waited for him to ask me questions about it, he didn't, so I didn't explain the weird thing, so he scumread me) made it feel like his reads were fake
The only towntell I remember you saying he had was not wanting another player lynched which wouldn't be a towntell if that other player was his scumbuddy
Wagons should have been enough to convince me he was town though, in retrospect

[Irrelephant11]

The way Chemist develops his read on Persi comes from an uninformed perspective about Persi's alignment -- especially the natural fluidity & slight revisions in the reading. And while scum might fake some genuine scumhunting for opposing scum, it's unlikely that scum Chemist decides to take a position against lynching opposite-faction Persi or a position against lynching town Persi. If Chemist were scum, he wouldn't have said "I don't want to lynch him today."

F

I misremembered the beginning of this paragraph
I agree that I should have worked to stop the chemist lynch
I've been feeling this way all night phase, though, so I'm gonna stop feeling bad about it and go back to just playing

[Irrelephant11]

Maybe! skitter made a goodish towncase for Persivul tho
What do you think about a dunnstral lynch

[Irrelephant11]

I can see why you and a couple others are townreading him, though I think the reasons are kinda meh (iirc you're townreading him for being upset that you scumread him based on false meta? I've gotten genuinely upset about that as scum before. And others are townreading him for hunting, which, multiball)

well a few things:

1. i think that he reacted to pressure differently than how he did in prey, namely that he was super *not* survivalistic here, which i associate with town (and i think survivalism is a tell that ought to work just as well in multiball as in singleball)

2. he literally wanted to start a 1v1 with me at a time when i was already highly townread, for the purpose of analyzing how his wagon built - and in the process he didn't mind getting lynched!. i don't think that after prey scum!him ever thinks that he's winning a 1v1 with me here (and he even recognized that here and said he didn't really think that he was going to and that wasnt' even the goal; he wanted to see how the resulting wagon played out)

3. he's actually, like, scumhunting here, in comparison to prey, where a lot of his questions/thread-presence felt a lot more like busy work

all of this together makes me find scum!percy unlikely. i'm not really interested in joining the wagon rn *even if* i townread everyone on it because i don't, like, actually scumread him

[Irrelephant11]

Friendly reminder before we lynch this that a werewolf defector can be a 1-shot cop
Not that I'm really scumreading chennis at all anymore, just feel like it's necessary to say setup possibilities because reading the setup is not a thing everyone does

[Irrelephant11]

What's the right play here? Lynch now, ask questions later? Or do more claims?

[Irrelephant11]

theoretically roster could be a mafia traitor with a town PR that has useful results, so he should at least claim

[Irrelephant11]

Obviously his claim is only reliable if he caught a wolf, but

[Irrelephant11]

I will gladly vote him this game day, but if the idea is to keep talking, I will leave my vote where it is
I regretted letting the last game day end quickly even before I saw the flip, so I'll wait

[Irrelephant11]

I'm laughing

[Irrelephant11]

I fucking told you guys.

VOTE: rosterfoster

I am one-shot cop and I got MAFIA!

That’s funny. I’m a 1-shot seer and I got NOT HUMAN

VOTE: Chenn

VOTE: Roster

I'm laughingggggg

[Irrelephant11]

It's still possible they're co-scum doing the hardbus btw
I'm also staring at the setup list to see if they could be opposing scum and the answer is yes (if, say, chennis is a werewolf role seer who saw that roster has a mafia-only role)

[Irrelephant11]

You can laugh and vote the wolf.

I can’t believe they choose me to fake a guilty on though. I was easy mislynch bait for later.

I mean you can rest easy that if your claim is in any way true chennis will eat tomorrow's lynch

did either of you crumb your roles

[Irrelephant11]

yeah maybe, but if so he's ensuring his own lynch
let your flip prove your case, roster. You're 99% definitely dying today. If chennis is scum, there will be enough players who want his faction to die that he will get lynched tomorrow
any other reads that are important to you, roster?

pedit: town doesn't auto-lose if we mislynch d2. The two scumteams have to go for each other eventually

[Irrelephant11]

ugh people keep taking my pagebottoms

[Irrelephant11]

I would have crumbed a result today though if Chenn didn’t try to steal my thunder.

you would have crumbed a result today?

I'm back to laughing

[Irrelephant11]

Elephant you have to believe me. What makes his claim more valid than mine? He’s a role cop for sure.

that he claimed first, yes
also

Because I wouldn’t want to give too much setup information to scum.

Like if (in the world where Chenn is town) I suddenly stopped pushing Chenn and crumbed something that would be enough. Why would it help town to out?

feels like you know chenn is town

Friendly reminder before we lynch this that a werewolf defector can be a 1-shot cop
Not that I'm really scumreading chennis at all anymore, just feel like it's necessary to say setup possibilities because reading the setup is not a thing everyone does

I get guilties on mafia and innos on town/wolf/godfather

yes I understand, I'm just saying your claim, even if true, doesn't make it impossible for you to be a werewolf defector

[Irrelephant11]

yes, I do.
The fact that your first thought was "if I had a result on chenn, I'd crumb it" and when you explain it you say "well that would be if chenn was town" it makes me feel like you don't believe chenn is town
if you really had a guilty on chenn I don't think you say anything about crumbing a result
If you're town, sorry! You've lost my confidence in that completely.

I'm still willing to entertain your reads and thoughts, though, because even if you're scum you have opposing scum

[Irrelephant11]

you don't believe chenn is town

chenn is SCUM*

[Irrelephant11]

why are you certain that I'm town?
why is *my* believing you the most important?

no, a mislynch today is not a disaster for town. scum will be incentivized to crosskill if town dies today.

[Irrelephant11]

Ultimately roster I need you to recognize that you're dying this gameday and that the most useful thing you can do regardless of your alignment is find scum

[Irrelephant11]

iirc town has a lot less potential night power in jungle republic than in this setup, which is the other reason this situation is less worrying than that one

Let me say this differently: your attempts to convince me you're town by claim alone have gone out the window based on multiple factors I've already named; if you would like to convince me you're town, you should sort the rest of the playerlist. This is how you can convince me you are town.

pedit: I don't think it's entirely unlikely. I just think it's less likely than him true claiming. In both scenarios, your reaction (ought to be, if you're any good at scum) = the same. That leaves me with one thing to evaluate: is it more likely that he's true claiming, or fake claiming? I find the former more likely, because it is.

If you're town, sorry, you're stuck in the more-unlikely basically-unwinnable 1v1 scenario. If you're scum, lol

[Irrelephant11]

Reminder that three of Dunnstral's 17 posts include

VOTE: Skygazer

an RVS vote

VOTE: PenguinPower

An opportunistic vote on the Penguin wagon

OK, I don't care anymore

VOTE: Chemist

this is hammer I think

And L-1 on chemist

[Irrelephant11]

Both could be scum.

Yeah I pointed this out a page or two ago and I feel like it might be true

[Irrelephant11]

Extremely hard disagree that Persovil is greener from the orange flip
I’ve said before and will day again Skitter/Persivul feels EXACTLY like me/Persivul scumteam from a previous game (using meta to start a fake arguments, shifting to defending each other)
Looking again at the way the Persivul wagon formed (esp. Being led by Shoshin) and was pulled apart mainly by skitter

I am extremely interested in a Persivul flip

More thoughts later I’m always busy on weekends

[Irrelephant11]

Oh yeah, thanks
VOTE: Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Why did you need to be prompted to vote?

I was distractedly mobile posting, like I am now

[Irrelephant11]

I’m always busy on weekends

[Irrelephant11]

Off the top of my head without as much rereading as I’d like to do my guesses at teams are
Mafia: fuscosco/dunnstral
Werewolves: Persivul/duck

Discuss

Also I am waiting on a mod answer to a question before I can explain my duck read

[Irrelephant11]

I'm mobile rn, but Idk about dunnscum.

at least, theyre kind of a firm nil rn. nonpresence is AI of him?

No, but his presence has been scummy

[Irrelephant11]

While waiting on mod answer, I don't have a read on duck atm. Though I want to talk to you, Ewo (or maybe BuJ? Maybe both) about Persivul when you get a chance
I'm gonna do a lot of rereading later

My living townreads atm are like... Penguin and chennis (only scumread him last game day when I thought maybe roster did have some sort of guilty on him as a mafia traitor-cop or rolecop)
oh and maybe dave but that's dependent on seeing some good play soon and him not coasting on earlier townreads
I don't remember why Vorkuta was town but I think shoshin thought so so I'll examine that

duckduck and baezu sit firmly in a "nothing" range rn, so I guess I'll have to reread both of those slots

leaving persivul, creature, fuscosco, and dunnstral. I would be a little surprised if these were the four scum but I would be more surprised if three of them were town. If you're in this list please town it up thank u

[Irrelephant11]

maybe roster did have some sort of guilty

I don't think so now, obviously. He flipped goon. I thought his anger might have been genuine because he had a real reason to think you were scum. I never really thought he was town

Also what's scummy about a small part of me thinking his guilty was genuine pre-flip?

[Irrelephant11]

think chennis were scum.

ebwop

[Irrelephant11]

Also what's scummy about a small part of me thinking his guilty was genuine pre-flip?

This is actually silly the more I think about it. I recognize the wifom of me being the one saying this, but if anything me thinking roster had a guilty is halfway to a townslip? Mafia!me knows he doesn't have any sort of guilty and gains nothing by building a scumcase on chennis dependent on my partner flipping a role he doesn't have. Werewolf!me knows he doesn't have any sort of guilty (unless and until chennis flips wolf) and gains nothing by building a scumcase on chennis dependent on a night action claim I know is false.

Please do tell, though, why a townie couldn't believe for half a second that two of his scumreads were indeed scum

[Irrelephant11]

the wagon that formed on penguin d1 that I think had both kinds of scum on it (checking this now it had skitter, but not roster, but it was still ridiculously fast and included most of my current scumreads) and his reaction to it att

[Irrelephant11]

About this - if he is greener why vote him now?

read my post again

[Irrelephant11]

OtOH, youre talking to Rooster and keep mentioning ways chen could be scum or even a hard bussing buddy.
OtO, youre actively calling him scum and asking him to out reads.
I feel less like youre trying to save rooster and more like you want him to drop shade on others for future lynches?

I wasn't trying to save roster at all. I just wanted his reads because I thought it would be useful to get scum!roster to out his other-scum reads. I pretended to lightly townread him so he would consider doing that for me

I also pointed out ways that chennis was not 100% clear in case roster was quickhammered, I died overnight, and no townie noticed the ways chennis could technically still be scum and to keep actively reading his dayplay. For a minute roster got so impassioned I thought there was a chance he really believed chennis was scum, and if that was the case maybe - who knows? - he had a guilty and thought claiming it would be worth his time as outed scum because then at least the opposing scumteam would get lynched the next day.
Obviously now that he's flipped goon no part of me thinks he has a guilty on chennis, and I like .01% think it was a partner-bus, because chennis still has to play townily to not get lynched (seeing as "getting a guilty" is not the same as "clearing oneself" in this game)

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not opposed to a dunnstral lynch but can we PLEASE PLEASE play this game day for longer than like just-pass-prod-dodge range. I have a lot of reads to clear up and town has enough of a majority to avoid a quickhammer situation as long as we can agree to actually play.

[Irrelephant11]

Please do tell, though, why a townie couldn't believe for half a second that two of his scumreads were indeed scum

Its the mental gymnastics youre trying to justify that I find suspect.

please explain

[Irrelephant11]

because chennis still has to play townily to not get lynched

I think the weight that chen is trying to throw around speaks volumes for their alignment.

If your point here is that chennis is probably town, I already feel that way. I am simply repeating (because you asked about it) that he is not cleared.

[Irrelephant11]

I want to think, because the shoshin kill seems like either misdirection or more meta-entrenched scum imo.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean but I continue to wolfread you (imo scum like to loudly ponder the meaning of their own kills so that others will come to the incorrect conclusions they intended for the kill)

[Irrelephant11]

fuscosco wolfcase coming today btw. I will also be examining the Persivul mafcase to make sure I'm not just imprinting skitter's scummy play towards Persivul as a reason to scumread Persivul

[Irrelephant11]

Please do tell, though, why a townie couldn't believe for half a second that two of his scumreads were indeed scum

Its the mental gymnastics youre trying to justify that I find suspect.

please explain

Like I said, I kind of feel like maybe you were looking to muddy up the game with rooster reads. Getting rooster to give any info is fine, but Im wondering if it wasnt just some kind of coaching. Thats not any more unlikely than chen hardbussing or rooster being a maf defector.

What was there to muddy? If your thought is that I was coaching roster as his partner, why wouldn't I just tell him in scumchat to post reads?

[Irrelephant11]

I think shoshin was suboptimal.

I think its a shallow reason for wolf reading me since you did so beforehand

I think its better calling me wolf now than calling me roosters buddy like you did at day-break.

Oh wait
I did think you were roster's buddy
and roster was maf....
Welp now I'm confused

Yeah I thought persivul was wolf and you were maf my b
I take back that reason to scumread you, maybe

[Irrelephant11]

I have procrastinated work for too long I'll be back later

[Irrelephant11]

why wouldn't I just tell him in scumchat to post reads?

Subject: Open 568: Wolf Gang City – Mafia Topic

Confirming that FuDuzn has chosen Spy.

Locked for Day start.

Oh
Well yeah that is a reasonable-ish read on it then I guess.

Fuscosco if you, me, penguin, chennis are town, who's the scum in your eyes?

[Irrelephant11]

I think irrel is wrong on certain things in a rather weird way but I dunno.. he just doesn't make sense as scum here.

What am I wrong about? Why is it weird?

[Irrelephant11]

I think its better calling me wolf now than calling me roosters buddy like you did at day-break.

why?

[Irrelephant11]

Now I townread very much but irrel entertaining the thought of skitter bussing persivul looks like a distancing gambit to me. It's far easier for me to accept that than him actually considering it. Now maybe his late replace-in affects his perception of it but I just can't see how anyone who read the interactions between skitter and persivul and was there to read the gamestate at the time could think that they're on the same team.

If I make the case for their being a team will you make the opposing case

[Irrelephant11]

I'm getting paranoid about baezu because I feel like everyone, including scum have kind of passively written him of as town.

I agree that that's kinda where baezu sits. That said, I would be mildly surprised if he were scum here

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I am sort of embarrassed about this but I'll just admit; I had reason to think I'd be able to read your slot without reading your entire ISO
Mod answer has come in and... I can't.
So I'm kinda starting over for you.

Persivul I find hard to read on his own. I find his town play scummy until retrospect, and I thought I was safe sheeping two strong townies (skitter and shoshin) on him. Then they hard disagreed, one has flipped scum, and I'm inclined to trust the green flip's read on him. I do think his interactions with skitter were somewhat damning, as well, which I plan to lay out.

Penguin's wagon showed he is less likely to be scum. This does not change in multiball just because "oh well maybe only one scumteam wagoned him" - that would, by definition, make him less likely to be scum. I thought his responses when the wagon was on him were also in character for town!him

I don't think it's weird I misread skitter - she has an award for scumplay, after all.

[Irrelephant11]

I think its better calling me wolf now than calling me roosters buddy like you did at day-break.

why?

Because it makes more sense?
it also is one of several inconsistencies i think i see in your iso.

I hate how rational you seem but how flawed your thinking seems to be. idk how to approach it.

I haven’t explained yet why I think you’re scum with roster. How is it you see flaws in my thinking?
Also it seems obvious to me how to approach flawed thinking, especially with someone you see as rational. Point out the flaws.

Please point out the other consistencies. I would like to be able to catch myself on bad reads and fix them (rather than quickhammer consensus scum dunnstral in the next 48 hours and hope I figure things out later)

[Irrelephant11]

Do what with you? A back-and-forth? I've been talking with Duck all day, but more slowly, since we haven't been online at the same time as much. God your commentary on this game is bizarre. I get the feeling you're scratching and clawing for a reason to scumread me (I've felt that way all game).
Some surprise meetings and some things I mod in mish mash took away the time I wanted to spend making cases. I will make them tomorrow.

[Irrelephant11]

@Mod VC?

[Irrelephant11]

Sounds good tbh
Just an FYI I’m not sure if you’ve read all my posts but I nullread you rn
Mobile posting so I’ll answer the questions later

[Irrelephant11]

Please invite dunnstral
I will not fight his lynch all day if he’s gonna barely play but I will fight it this early in the day

Please please invite dunnstral

[Irrelephant11]

*unvote
Stupid autocorrect

[Irrelephant11]

ftr rich hedburg is not an alt of mine
Idk who I replaced

Yesterday my wife was sick but today I'll be making casessss
watch out

[Irrelephant11]

wolfcase coming today

time I wanted to spend making cases. I will make them tomorrow.

today I'll be making casessss
watch out

kachow

Yes thank you for removing the “my wife was sick” i appreciate your concern

[Irrelephant11]

I understand that I've sort of held up the game with promises of content - I couldn't provide on that content for reasons related to my IRL situation. Explaining that is not what is meant by the "outside influences" rule. It's common courtesy.
Subject: Forum Rules and Guidelines

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using

knowledge

from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

Thank you, though.

[Irrelephant11]

Okay so like,

I'm writing my long post about Persivul, and I noticed he used the word "bullshit" in this game and that he also used it when we were scum together.
So I metadived his use of the word "bullshit". I sort of regret how much time this took but I think the results show it's AI, so of course I have to share:

My results:
Persivul's use of the word "bullshit" in 2019, where Persivul has rolled scum 3 times and town 5 times:
This game - once
Town: Newbie 1920 - once
Scum: Prey - three uses
Scum: Room Odds - once
Scum: Micro 838 - once

Persivul's use of the word "bullshit" in 2018, where Persivul rolled scum 2 times and town 5 times:
Scum AND Town: 2-in-1 - twice (counting these as once as scum and once as town)
Town: Large Normal 217 - once
Town: EISAL Finale - once
Town: Limbo - once

Persivul's use of the word "bullshit" in 2017, where Persivul has rolled scum 2 times and town 3 times:
T Game of Thrones - once
T Bondage & Discipline - twice
S Gold Miner Slaughter - once
S Fat Boy Mafia - twice
(for my own sanity, I'm not going further back than March 2017)

6/7 times Persivul has rolled scum since March 2017, he has used the word bullshit, for a total of 9 times. In one scumgame, he didn't use the word.
Meanwhile, in 6/13 of his towngames, he has used the word bullshit, for a total of 7 times. In 7 towngames, he didn't use the word.

In scummary: The word "bullshit" is a strong indicator that Persivul is scum, and he has used it in this game.
Now the long post about persivul/skitter I was writing might have to wait

[Irrelephant11]

A summary of the long post, at least, so you can interact with the thesis: skitter and persivul scumread each other INTENSELY for like five minutes "based on meta", then townread each other happily and without any real paranoia, and skitter worked to get people off his wagon. A similar situation happened once when persivul and I were scum together.

Thesis part 2: Persivul and skitter's VERY ANGRY AND SINCERE argument happened because skitter compared persivul's play to a recent scumgame of his. When I did the same thing, he threw light shade at me for forgetting to vote him and then kinda ignored me.

[Irrelephant11]

Also Shoshin wanted Persivul's lynch more than any other lynch and her read accuracy is pretty good and she's confirmed town

[Irrelephant11]

he feels awkward to me, but having an awkward playstyle isn't the same thing as being scum; nothing you mentioned here is really inheretnly more scum-indicative than 'having an awkward playstyle' indicative

Bullshit. Casting shade without a vote isn't a playstyle thing, it's a scum thing.

Subject: Micro 839: Two-in-One (its over)

I didn’t make you do anything, I was only the second vote

That's bullshit. Your vote was the second post after the VC. You knew it was L-1, didn't announce it, and now deny prompting the claim.

VOTE: B7: Irrelephant
VOTE: C14: Elsa

p-edit: you realized your mistake and are now trying to save face.

Happy New Year everyone!

My theory is Persivul likes to call bullshit when he's extremely confident he's talking to scum, which he is when talking to his scumpartner

[Irrelephant11]

I hope Persivul is scum because wow that was a lot of work

I think Dunnstral is probably mafia

I had a flash of insight D2 that my townreads probably included most of one scumteam and very little of another because whichever scumteam is doing a better job of being townread is also helping each other look towny. I think werewolves are the ones in our collective blindspot (though with only two alive it might be more like one of each team), and perhaps the skitter kill wasn't even meant to hit a werewolf (I would not have known she was scum, anyway)

All of that just to day I think dunnstral still has good scum odds but wow is Persivul not going to NOT get a lot of my attention after the shoshin flip

[Irrelephant11]

I think Dunnstral is probably mafia

as opposed to werewolf, which I think persivul is

[Irrelephant11]

Vorkuta remind me why you're town this game

[Irrelephant11]

What even is this question?

(btw, completely unrelated, let's mass claim yeah?)

I accepted you as town because enough people said so in early game it seemed safe to toss you in my townleans
Since then you've basically just advocated for massclaim and consensus lynches
Got anything else going on I'm forgetting that would help me townread you if you're town?

Also I've said this but I'm ~fine with the idea of massclaim. I agree massclaiming this gameday could out a scum on a later gameday. At the same time I think mass claiming could easily kill a town PR that would out a scum on a later gameday, so... trade offs. I do think

Dunnstral should claim in his next post

given there's more than enough votes going on and off his wagon for a lynch

[Irrelephant11]

Maybe it would be better to just pretend I replaced a stupid lurkbag.

yeah, try this. You're not making it easy to townread you and sometimes I tinfoil a you/persivul/skitter wolfteam so talk me out of it

[Irrelephant11]

Wow if this makes me "bad" and low-presence, I would love to know what you think of like a third of the remaining players in here.

I don't remember calling you bad or low-presence
Did someone else call you those things? Whose words are those

[Irrelephant11]

Maybe it would be better to just pretend I replaced a stupid lurkbag.

yeah, try this. You're not making it easy to townread you and sometimes I tinfoil a you/persivul/skitter wolfteam so talk me out of it

maybe I'm indeed wolf with them?

this is the opposite of talking me out of it

[Irrelephant11]

'm 100% relying on my meta slight-town!read on Creature, and he has absolutely no in-game reasons for me town reading for the record.I just remember from our previous games that he is a very very "meta-readable" player.

what gives you this "meta slight-town!read", then? If not the things he's posted in this game.

[Irrelephant11]

Forcing scum to decide whether or not they're claiming PR can indeed help all townies. For example, if the wolves all claimed anti-mafia PRs, and then we killed the mafia and they flipped low-power, we'd know the wolves were lying.
But obviously another possibility is both scumteams claim well and then shoot the town PRs easily

[Irrelephant11]

Actually massclaim must be the worst idea considering we need crosskills the most rn.

this is the best reason for not massclaiming probably
We are wayyyy less likely to luck out on crosskills if we give scum juicier targets

[Irrelephant11]

Also- (paraphrasing someone from my first game with creature) "town!creature is a useless lurksack", and "this is a town!creature post" here and there.With creature it's more about tone than actual "tangible" content.I understand that it's not a "solid" town case, but it's better than my other "town!cases" and lime vouched for him so that's good enough for me.

Can you point me to these posts? I can't find them

[Irrelephant11]

by "these posts" I mean Jungle vouching for him
My understanding of Creature's meta is he is much more active as town and much more lurky as scum

[Irrelephant11]

I thought that was the implication. Sorry if I assumed/jumped too conclusions too hastily.

You also still have not directed me to anything from you that would give me a reason to townread you

[Irrelephant11]

-As of now, this game is slightly "stagnant" and town feels "reactive" instead of "proactive". I have a bad feeling that a single scum faction can just ride this out to victory.

I agree with this analysis of stagnancy. Does this mean you feel dunnstral is town, then? If you think he's scum, we're doing pretty okay as long as we lynch him today. Your concern of scum riding out an easy win sounds a little like TMI that dunnstral's town (though I guess even scum!you wouldn't know that for sure).

How do you read baezu and fuscosco, btw?