Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[James Brafin]

Hey everyone, I’m James Brafin.
Some things to know:
I policy vote/lynch toxicity. Period. I don’t want it in my game. It’s no fun for anyone.
I don’t like RVS. I’ve heard it said that it builds information, but how can you build information on no foundation? So I’m abstaining my vote. When I put it up you can assume your RVS is over.
I’m also doing a touch of research to improve my preliminary reads, so if I ask a weird question just play along.

Speaking of weird questions, I’d appreciate it if everyone would answer this:
If you could live anywhere, where would it be and why?
For me, it’s somewhere in the north, where you get decent snow. Nebraska, maybe?
Thanks,
JB

[James Brafin]

All responses noted.
To those who have an issue: I understand your concern, but I promise there is a very good reason for this. Let’s just say I’m trying to change the game so to speak.

[James Brafin]

No, I'm voting them because they are refusing to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them, and applying pressure is a good way to

force

them to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them.

Sakura leaning scum, you leaning town, brafin was leaning scum til I did a meta search at which point it became "null but learn more"

Implosion, sure, still a damn sight more than I am comfortable with that early on.

VOTE: James Brafin the entire point of RVS is that someone *does* have information, and we're trying to see who it is. A brief search suggests you do this every game, but I still don't like that at all.

Probably relatively northerly here too, but given I live north of 42 degrees, our calibrations for what constitutes north may differ

So A) your reason to vote me is shit. You should know, if you actually meta-dived, that if you vote me I feel no pressure.
B) This method is inherently flawed imo, because it relies on the fact that we focus on spontaneous wagons that have no structure and/or TvT, SvT, or similar, neither of which scum is stupid enough to get into at this point in the game and reveal they know things. So we end up with a D1 mislynch that didn’t really provide any information because the information we think we are gathering doesn’t exist or is being manipulated by scum. Alternatively, it’s hard to fake answering a question, and assuming everyone participates, it should tell you a little about playstyle, even if the question has no bearing on the game. For example, both you and Gamma are heavily reliant on RVS, and you use your votes as pressure to attempt to form reads. All of this due to the fact that my refusal to participate in RVS actually created more dialogue than your RVS did, far quicker and more naturally, which should be somewhat indicative of how flawed the system actually is. We learn far more from not doing it than doing it.

That all being said, VOTE: Phil OMGUS. Your reasoning that I am and will “refuse to provide information” is bull. I posted once, you’ve not given me the opportunity to provide information.

[James Brafin]

Speaking of weird questions, I’d appreciate it if everyone would answer this:
If you could live anywhere, where would it be and why?
For me, it’s somewhere in the north, where you get decent snow. Nebraska, maybe?
Thanks,
JB

Will this have some kind of follow-up this time? Last time with the food question it ended nowhere. (I liked though that the Italian food answer actually came from scum)

I don't need to live somewhere else.

Yeah it will. I went out of town and needed to replace, but that shouldn’t happen this game.

[James Brafin]

All responses noted.
To those who have an issue: I understand your concern, but I promise there is a very good reason for this. Let’s just say I’m trying to change the game so to speak.

I was toxic. Why aren't you voting me?

I was ignoring the blatant attempts to draw conflict that were obviously trolly in nature.
The fact that you’re still trying to force me to 1v1 with you is major scum points though.

[James Brafin]

Well yes, I think your vote is bullshit and very opportunistic. It looks like a scum move. So I voted you, because it looked like a scum move. I don’t see what your reasoning is here.

[James Brafin]

When you actually have something important to say let me know.
Kthxbye

[James Brafin]

But at that point we weren't in RVS anymore, were we? You and I (me in particular) intentionally moved us out of RVS and started generating information.
So you're saying here that "You don't like that all" (From post 41) because it doesn't start generating reads and discussion, when it did in fact start generating reads and discussion?
Your logic astounds me. Please, continue.

@Sakura: To me it feels like, "Hey, I don't like this guy's approach to game start, so even though he does this consistently, I'm gonna vote him because 'I don't like it.['" That reads as opportunistic to me and using my regular approach to gamestart to try and get a wagon rolling.
And before anyone goes all off the deep end about what I said before: Scum doesn't wagon/SvT in RVS, because that's where the entire focus is, in those wagons and those interactions. But that's where town looks and votes, and then we end up with a D1 mislynch. However, we are no longer in RVS, which means at this point any wagon from this point forward can and should be examined. When Phil ended RVS with his posts, which I believe were opportunistic, and an attempt to shade and paint me as unhelpful scum.

[James Brafin]

No, I'm voting them because they are refusing to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them, and applying pressure is a good way to

force

them to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them.

I don't like this post, btw. If I don't believe RVS provides information of any sort, why would I participate in it? I never said I wouldn't provide info. All I said is that I wouldn't participate in RVS.
To recapitulate with classical logic, your argument is:

People who participate in RVS are people who are going to volunteer or provide information. (A)
James Brafin is not a person who is participating in RVS. (O)
Therefore, James Brafin is not a person who is going provide information. (O)

The problem here is that this first statement is objectively untrue. Not only does participation in RVS not dictate if you provider information, we've established that the participation in RVS does NOT provide information.

[James Brafin]

@James (J4M3S) I responded to your post about RVS not working and would like you to reply.

You mean this?

J4M3S BR4F1N, HOW DO3S ON3 FORM 4 FOUND4T1ON W1THOUT RVS? TH3 G4M3 ST4RTS W1TH L1TTL3 TO NO 1NFORM4T1ON SO YOU PR4CT1C4ALLY H4V3 TO ST4RT FROM NOTH1NG. 4LTHOUGH 1N TH1S G4M3 W3 H4V3 4N 1C R3V34L TO WORK W1TH >:]

Alternatively, it’s hard to fake answering a question, and assuming everyone participates, it should tell you a little about playstyle, even if the question has no bearing on the game. For example, both you and Gamma are heavily reliant on RVS, and you use your votes as pressure to attempt to form reads. All of this due to the fact that my refusal to participate in RVS actually created more dialogue than your RVS did, far quicker and more naturally, which should be somewhat indicative of how flawed the system actually is. We learn far more from not doing it than doing it.

Consider this an answer.

[James Brafin]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town. E.g., 62-64 is a good reaction. James comes off more strongly as giving off his personality than giving anything useful for reading him, which is a bit annoying. James is spending paragraphs talking about how RVS is inferior, which is basically spending paragraphs talking about nothing. Post 72 is such an absurd way to use logic. It's just not useful. It's like he's framing it as a formal logical argument to show he can, and then the flaw that he points out in the way that he's formalizing it isn't even the actual flaw in the argument, it's just a premise that he disagrees with (the actual flaw being that the argument all A are B, C is not A, therefore C is not B being invalid).

So James.

Without talking about RVS because I think you and I both agree it's a deeply uninteresting thing, and without talking about how anyone's logic is bad (because bad logic is perhaps the least accurate "scumtell" in history), is there any actual reason Phil's posting is more likely to come from scum than from town?

Again, I find Phil is behaving in a very opportunistic fashion. He “doesn’t like” my position, so suddenly I’m suspicious, even though I’ve actually explained my reasoning and generated a ton of information relatively quickly. To borrow a line from his book, I don’t like that. It feels like he’s probing for a mislynch and looking for reasons to scumread me.

[James Brafin]

And now I’ve made clear the validity of my points, he backs off.
I’m not sure how I feel about that.

[James Brafin]

Implosion, sure, still a damn sight more than I am comfortable with that early on.

VOTE: James Brafin

the entire point of RVS is that someone *does* have information, and we're trying to see who it is.

A brief search suggests you do this every game, but I still don't like that at all.

Probably relatively northerly here too, but given I live north of 42 degrees, our calibrations for what constitutes north may differ

No,

I'm voting them because they are refusing to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them,

and applying pressure is a good way to

force

them to volunteer information that'll help me form a read on them.

I fail to see how you are not arguing the axises or conclusion.

[James Brafin]

Apparently we're both wrong and it's either axioms or axiomata.

James, I don't deny that you're failing to see it, that much is clear . You were refusing to participate in RVS, so I applied pressure to bring you out of RVS so you would start giving useful information. For someone who claims not to respond to pressure, you sure did... respond to it.

But again: Outside of myself, who is clearly the scummiest scum who ever scummed: What are your initial impressions of the rest of the playerlist?

Oh.
Well, I’ll ditto the above post. Apparently I am also, to put it kindly, a freaking idiot.
I’ll be honest, I need to un-tunnel myself from you and re-read the thread, because my perspective makes no sense. Give me a little time and I’ll get back to you.

[James Brafin]

Is this serious?
Because that’s a lousy excuse for a vote if I’ve ever seen one.

[James Brafin]

Chemist is pinging me. So is Pers, who doesn't seem toe really be adding anything to the gamestate
Implosion strikes me as town-ish, in a "using other's content bot not generating a lot of my own" kinda way. But he's been super active and building off several other players, which I expect from town, not scum.
Jackal I can't sort yet. Not enough info.
Korina and The Worst are both obviously scum.
Arch is... odd. I'd like to see vote reasoning here, but I can't say he's super scummy without it. VERY slight scumread,
Dr. doesn't have enough, but Dry-fit has me concerned. He feels like he's coasting, which I don't feel like is a town thing.
Gamma is fluff-posting, which I find scummy as frick. Speaking of, yes, I prefer RQS.
Phil is maybe town, considering his posts, and Sakura as well. I feel like as scum they both would have pushed harder against me for my bad reasoning, but they didn't try to build that case and that strikes me as townish.

[James Brafin]

Quickly typed everything up into my spreadsheet, and i need answers or official abstinence from the question posed in #35 from the following:
Phone0Ix
Gamma Emerald
Arcfield
Chemist1422
Jackal711

FI you answered and I missed it, please quote said post. Have a nice day.

[James Brafin]

Is this serious?
Because that’s a lousy excuse for a vote if I’ve ever seen one.

It's not like I can't change it if something stronger comes up

That seems very passive-aggressive and drift-y to me, like he doesn't give a flip. I don't like that.
Also, I haven't played with you in years. Can I get a confirmation of this, or do I need to meta dive?

[James Brafin]

Hello, Thespio. Please see post #35.

[James Brafin]

Hey everyone, I’m James Brafin.
Some things to know:
I policy vote/lynch toxicity. Period. I don’t want it in my game. It’s no fun for anyone.
I don’t like RVS. I’ve heard it said that it builds information, but how can you build information on no foundation? So I’m abstaining my vote. When I put it up you can assume your RVS is over.
I’m also doing a touch of research to improve my preliminary reads, so if I ask a weird question just play along.

Speaking of weird questions, I’d appreciate it if everyone would answer this:
If you could live anywhere, where would it be and why?
For me, it’s somewhere in the north, where you get decent snow. Nebraska, maybe?
Thanks,
JB

Im against your policy lynch, as It discourages genuine clash. If someone comes across poorly you try to kill them... which is toxic in and of its self.
but I would live anywhere but Nebraska, as I live there now.

There is a difference between conflict and being an ass. I’m making it clear the latter is not something I tolerate.

[James Brafin]

Unvote. Vote: implosion.

Naked votes are more likely to come from scum in my experience.

In other news I wish Persivul didn't spill the beans so soon about our Innocent Child. Should of let more information and hilarity ensue.

Can people start doing more AI stuff.

Why not do something to try to make that happen? You're play has been very passive so far.

Drew's Persivul vote is probably the worst vote of the game so far.

Gonna try to get a reread in tonight.

Both these posts objectively suck. Naked votes are NAI, not scummy. And this feels shady, esp. coming form a player who has also been very passive. This doesn’t seem to come from town to me at all.
VOTE: Dryfit

[James Brafin]

meh, I like being an ass to get people to slip up, but because you are a fan of Nebraska ill do my best not be too much of an ass

How does this come from town mindset?

[James Brafin]

Didn't say it did. I'm asking a question. Is there any way that it comes from a town mindset? How is this a town-aligned way to approach the game?

[James Brafin]

Didn't say it did. I'm asking a question. Is there any way that it comes from a town mindset? How is this a town-aligned way to approach the game?

I don't understand why evidence has to be presented to indicate such things. Right now if you want to call that approach scummy then the burden if proof is on you. Because Drew is right: if you want to assert it isn't a town mindset you must assert it is a scum mindset, there is no other option.

Fair enough.
I guess the way I see it, town is't looking to make other players slip up. Town is looking to see if scum slips up. conversely, scum wants to get another player to slip up so they can then argue for scum!player.
Basically, town observes it and scum instigates it.

[James Brafin]

I don't think Thespio's ISO justifies this flash wagon

It's not good but nothing worse than nullscum on their last post

I agree with this. He’s not provided enough sortable content to say with great confidence he’s scum.

Didn't say it did. I'm asking a question. Is there any way that it comes from a town mindset? How is this a town-aligned way to approach the game?

I don't understand why evidence has to be presented to indicate such things. Right now if you want to call that approach scummy then the burden if proof is on you. Because Drew is right: if you want to assert it isn't a town mindset you must assert it is a scum mindset, there is no other option.

Fair enough.
I guess the way I see it, town is't looking to make other players slip up. Town is looking to see if scum slips up. conversely, scum wants to get another player to slip up so they can then argue for scum!player.
Basically, town observes it and scum instigates it.

I think town should pressure people to reveal their worldview and how it's applied to the game, though; scum have a drastically different view to the game than town but they won't show that unless you make them.

While I can agree with that, the way it was phrased indicated that he was trying to make others slip up rather than trying to understand how and why people are acting the way they are. That’s the concerning bit.

[James Brafin]

So Phillammom, you seem odd... your ISO isnt the best

I believe that to a number of people (including me) this was an attempt at shade and to create a reason to get on this wagon, which was the leading wagon but had very little foundation.

[James Brafin]

Ugh, prods. Sorry ‘bout that.
I’m honestly not sure what to make of the Thespio/Phil 1v1. Thespio comes off as super not town here, accusing Phil of things that have no basis and then never following up on them. But he’s never actually voted Phil, nor done anything really productive toward the gamestate.
Let me check where my vote is, but if it’s not on Thespio and he’s not at L-1...

[James Brafin]

VOTE: Thespio
But going to look at Dryfit’s ISO in a bit and see how I feel about that.

[James Brafin]

It's like it's a different flavored wagon every day.

I’m sorry? What is that supposed to mean?

[James Brafin]

When you actually have something important to say let me know.
Kthxbye

Why dont you point out what that is being said that isnt important?

See the post above the post you quoted.

[James Brafin]

Also, now that THAT catchup is over:
So the Fish is prob town here. I don’t think scum has that level of faked scumhunting, posted thought process, and detail.
That being said, you do realize Thespio has never, as far as I’m aware, returned to his comments on the players he votes? He says that they look bad, votes them, and never actually explains why they look bad. Just because he agrees with you that Phil doesn’t look good doesn’t make him town. While you have, IMO, legit reasons, Thes was highly opportunistic in his voting.

[James Brafin]

When you actually have something important to say let me know.
Kthxbye

Why dont you point out what that is being said that isnt important?

See the post above the post you quoted.

I saw a vote on you, and then you being dismissive towards it. What did I miss?

It was a ‘pressure vote.’ Except anyone who would bother to read my meta would know better than to try that, since I don’t feel pressure from votes or wagons. So, he was just, as I like to call it, shit-sheeping.

[James Brafin]

In response to your first question, not at all. I’m just very dry most of the time, and get exasperated easily. And reading through five pages of your posts wasn’t exactly what I was planning to do this morning before work.

In response to your second, check the game earlier to this. He went from toxic troll that I was mostly ignoring to “putting pressure on,” and I have no idea where it came from. Engagement =/= pressure. I mean, I wouldn’t call this pressure exactly, would you?

[James Brafin]

(That was to former btw)

[James Brafin]

And let’s be polite, fellas. No need to start cussing each other out for no reason.

[James Brafin]

Pretty confident Imposion/FormerFish is just TvT based on playstyle. So could we just knock it off and stop cluttering the thread? You two are worse than Inferno390 and TywinL were.

[James Brafin]

Also, now that THAT catchup is over:
So the Fish is prob town here. I don’t think scum has that level of faked scumhunting, posted thought process, and detail.
That being said, you do realize Thespio has never, as far as I’m aware, returned to his comments on the players he votes? He says that they look bad, votes them, and never actually explains why they look bad. Just because he agrees with you that Phil doesn’t look good doesn’t make him town. While you have, IMO, legit reasons, Thes was highly opportunistic in his voting.

Thespio hasn't voted yet actually

I could have sworn he voted Phil.
Looking at the VC, that’s obviously not the case. But the point still stands. Thespio is playing a very opportunistic game that has consisted of lurking, shading, and no basis.

[James Brafin]

Ribbit Ribbit
I’ve just been skimming (long, exhausting day) and so I want to know
Who’s your top scumread and why?

[James Brafin]

No it’s not
Would you like to explain any of that?

[James Brafin]

No it’s not
Would you like to explain any of that?

Not really, but if any read in particular strikes your fancy you can ask. You in particular I thought had a really good beginning, but you've tapered off a lot. Someone said that Thespio started to coast after getting some town reads, but I think that actually applies to you.

This is fair. It’s been a long couple of days and I’ve not had access to my computer. I probably need to reread and re-evaluate the thread.

[James Brafin]

Ok. I’m not liking Gamma here, specifically for #744, but also for very weak reasoning for some of his reads. Scum can make good points, just like town can. And the amount of time you have to play is completely NAI. Like I said, I’d be posting more but I’ve been super busy and not had much computer access.

Imply is pinging me hard. It feels like most of his reads so far have been based on the fact that “scum can fake this,” which is a BS reason to read anyone for anything. By that logic, scum can fake ANYTHING, and this whole game is pointless. But maybe I’m just oblivious. Also, the need for those people to validate his reads I don’t like. It feels LAMIST.

Thespio has yet to generate any content. Still motioning for a Thespio lynch.

And honestly, Mr. Turkey seems to be about the same here. Very little content, lots of fluff, won’t explain reads. And then there’s this jab at me, that reads almost like a chainsaw/white knight attempt via Thespio. Because honestly, if your problem is with my participation level, Thespio deserves a hard look here, bud.

Only people I feel like are very likely town here are Sakura and Phil, the latter because of our early interaction and the former because she seems to be making good points and doing genuine scumhunting.

[James Brafin]

And honestly, Mr. Turkey seems to be about the same here. Very little content, lots of fluff, won’t explain reads. And then there’s this jab at me, that reads almost like a chainsaw/white knight attempt via Thespio. Because honestly, if your problem is with my participation level, Thespio deserves a hard look here, bud.

Why did you call it a jab when you agreed with it? Like I said, if you want to know my reads, you can ask about specific players.

Doesn’t make it any less of a jab.

[James Brafin]

Enormous. Those of you who aren’t voting Thespio here, I’d like to know why.

[James Brafin]

@Gamma
OH
I misunderstood then. There is a spreadsheet with the information in it, but effectively I’m doing a study on RQS. The information may or may not prove valuable after my next question.

[James Brafin]

Speaking of next questions:
@All: Do you think tunneling is effective as town or scum, and why/why not?

Also, I’m with Drew on this one. Gobble/Thes could be a real thing. I’m leaning more chainsaw than white knight here.

[James Brafin]

VOTE COUNT 1.16

Thespio (4, L-3!):

Persivul, James Brafin, Gamma Emerald, Sakura Hana

gobbledygook (3):

Skygazer, implosion, Doctor Drew

Doctor Drew (3):

gobbledygook, Formerfish, Chemist1422

Chemist1422 (1):

Phillammon

Phillammon (0):

Persivul (0):

implosion (0):

Sakura Hana (0):

James Brafin (0):

Gamma Emerald (0):

Formerfish (0):

Spangled (0):

Skygazer (0):

No-Lynch (0):

Not Voting (2):

Spangled, Thespio
With

13

alive, it takes

7

to lynch.

(expired on 2019-07-31 21:10:00) remain in the day.

Mod Notes

:
- Remember: Flavor is just flavor. Don't use it to make arguments.
- Reminder: There is no plurality. If nobody is lynched by deadline, it's treated as a no-lynch.
- I will be pseudo-V/LA until July 28th or 29th. While I will still be around, please submit all actions to the worst as well.

People should come vote Drew, we have cake and punch over here.

And Thespio has cookies.
I’m liking this juicy interaction between Drew and Chemist right here. I feel like it’s TvT though.

[James Brafin]

Imply is pinging me hard. It feels like most of his reads so far have been based on the fact that “scum can fake this,” which is a BS reason to read anyone for anything. By that logic, scum can fake ANYTHING, and this whole game is pointless. But maybe I’m just oblivious. Also, the need for those people to validate his reads I don’t like. It feels LAMIST.

But see, he hasn't even SRed the Fish. He's just said that Fish can't be townlocked based on his towny catchup.
And the reason most of his conversation has been based around that is because that is what the discussion has been around: that is to say, the Fish's catchup and it's towniness (or relative lack thereof, from Imp's POV).
Additionally, scum can fake certain things - but not every thing. Imp has never said that scum can fake everything, just that the things the Fish has been doing have been fakeable by clever scum.
And asking for others to look at your reads is never LAMIST, nor should it be considered so. It is trying to make discussion over things - that is to say, what town should do.
(All this defence is what I meant when I said I felt some mindmeld with Imp - I've understood where he's been coming from on pretty much all quarters).

@James

Your first two points are valid. I misremembered how that very long, annoying argument went and thought that Implo’s POV was much more general than it actually was.
The third, I’m not sure about. I can understand discussing read lists, and even how that their discussion can be useful. But to create a read list and then to ask others to tell you what they think to me feels A) lazy, and I’ve never heard of lazy town, B) like they’re just saying “Look at me, I have a read list! Look at me, I’m so townie for having a read list and wanting to discuss it!” instead of letting it happen organically, and C) like a great excuse to scumread someone because they don’t agree with your reasoning.

[James Brafin]

OH MY FREAKING GOSH
THIS IS SUCH A MISREP
FIRST OFF
I legit think you are scum. This is not a policy lynch. The only reason you’re saying that is because of my first post, as a convenient excuse to dismiss my read/push. But if you were actually paying any freaking attention, you’d know that’s bull because I policy lynch toxicity, and you’re not being toxic. Just blatantly ignoring the gamestate.
SECOND OFF
I am pushing you as scum because you have coasted and generated literally no content this entire game, never followed up on any of your “reads” or opinions, never voted, just casually shaded other players and never explained why, have completely misrepresented me to paint as scum, and are completely ignoring other players posts and votes in order to push your own agenda. And in case you haven’t been paying attention (which would not surprise me in the slightest) I’m not the only one who agrees with at least some of this, because there has been a wagon on you almost all day long, and it is gaining freaking momentum. And guess what? The reason I am leading the charge is because not a single one of your actions can be resolved to a town mindset imo. If someone else wants to explain why any of your behaviors are town, go ahead, but they’re going to be hard pressed to do that, because town doesn’t lurk and wolf in this manner.

Are we done here?

[James Brafin]

Thespio is just misrepresenting everything.

What? Really? I couldn’t tell.
*sarcasm*

[James Brafin]

Gamma, I think this comment is similar to the “town for general mindmelds” from Chemist.

[James Brafin]

Nope he’s not.
He’s describing the fact that Sakura is full of crap because she did it actually go anywhere last night.
I thought I was townreading Sakura. I now have no trust in her at all. I’m going to go back and glance over her ISO to make sure, but something’s telling me we have caught scum.

[James Brafin]

Where did you retract it, exactly?

[James Brafin]

I take back the guilty on FF.

Ok. I saw the vote but missed the guilty retraction.
I feel a tiny amount better, but not much. A) Why did you choose Former and B) why did your vote change to Drew?
Also, I’m still gonna look at your ISO because you’re still pinging me something fierce.

[James Brafin]

Ok, I think I’m okay now. Nothing screams scum to me in your ISO, Sakura, so unless you’re just super good at this, I don’t think you’re scum.
Drew is next. I’m also in agreement that this flip-flopping is WEIRD.

[James Brafin]

A) Why did you choose Former

After thesp flipped town, your post sounded like TMIsh or like setting me up, that's why i went after you.

You know you'd find most answers if you read my ISO.

B) why did your vote change to Drew?

Didn't like his participation in the whole affair

Alright. Just trying to make things super explicit.

[James Brafin]

I’m caught up

I didn’t like how aggressive Drew got in response to pressure given how a lot of their stances earlier were on the weaker side.

VOTE: Drew

There was one vote on me when I got 'aggressive', as you put it. Wouldn't call that too much pressure.

Maybe I am worried about keeping me alive, but why would scum-Drew throw himself into the fire with 4 days left and two wagons already trucking and people willing to vote a couple others?

Because that’s not a long-term success strategy, especially if you have a teammate under fire

I have already stated that I am fine either way with Gob or Thespio, the top two wagons.

Who am I protecting?

In fact, fuck it. Shit or get off the face is what I say.

You are trying to deflect off thespio turkey man.....I think this is a scum v scum wagon, ie thespio and turkey are both scum.

VOTE: gobbledygook

In fact, fuck it. Shit or get off the face is what I say.

You are trying to deflect off thespio turkey man.....I think this is a scum v scum wagon, ie thespio and turkey are both scum.

VOTE: gobbledygook

This is the second worst vote you've made.

Gob makes a case against drew. Drew agrees the case is as presented, and that Gob made the correct assessment of Drew's actions. Drew reads him as scum for this?

This is almost as bad as Phil meta diving to prove a point, and then ignored the evidence when it didn't fit his dickful thinking and voted JB anyways.

VOTE: DREW

This is a wagon I could compromise on if imp and Phil aren't viable.

My vote on him isn't omgus.

He and thespio are the top wagons right now, he is proactively trying to get heat off of thespio and passively off himself. He uses my supposed fixation on pers and Sakura, yet ignores my repeated inquiries about thespio's 151......I was more fixated on that than anything.

He is trying to make sure there are multiple wagons against himself and Thespio.

Pre Edit: I am a simple man Gob haha

Pre edit2: Don't get me wrong, I am on board with thespio as scum as well, which I clearly stated. I want to keep the wagon between you two.

Your claims =/= reality.
This is the first time you’ve interacted with Former at all.
Going from “This seems odd” to “This seems bad.”

[James Brafin]

Oh, and James is my top town read ftr.

Also, why?
You were scumreading me at the start of the game. What changed?

[James Brafin]

So Phillammom, you seem odd... your ISO isnt the best

Still catching up, not sure why i cant get in a a groove here, but I went through Phil's iso.......what did you find so odd.

Also, from skimming the game I was not liking James, but his interactions do seem town sided to meUNVOTE:

I was scum reading you?

I didn't like your abrasive town early, but quickly decided they we NAI. And I thought your interactions with thes were very town sided on your part.

Oh ok.
That I was just curious on. I wasn’t sure how you got from kinda scummy to super town.

[James Brafin]

Spangled, what is YOUR opinion on all of this? As an IC you’re probably the only trustworthy person here.

[James Brafin]

Also, just like Fish and Turkey, everyone should have an animal to represent them in this game. Not sure why, but it makes me giggle every time I call Gob Turkey.

I call dibs on snake.

While I don’t like you
I’m the duck. Sorry TW.

[James Brafin]

Is duck
Will quack

[James Brafin]

Ok, Doctor feels worse and worse here. So does Rick.
Liking Sakura more and more here. She's actively scumhunting with this gambit instead of letting it lie. Same with Formerfish.
The Turkey I'm not sure about. He pings me in a non-aggressive sort of way.
Chemist, I have no idea about. It's a legit claim I guess, but it makes me uncomfortable.

[James Brafin]

@Manits

VOTE: Fish

I am on board with this VOTE: Fish

First, this is obviously a gambit. A naked vote into day two, without a claim, is always always always a gambit, because no PR is stupid enough to not claim, since they are practically claiming anyways. Then he blindly sheeps and I go ???

I have super secret reasons to trust Sakura

Cool. Then she shouldnt be afraid to out her secret info. Cause I know what I am and what I can do, I doubt she does and is taking a shot in the dark. A shot that Drew was more than happy to drive full behind.

One thing I am trying to get, is why would you push my lynch d1. Obviously you weren't protecting thes, and I get a feeling turkey may actually be town.

Help me out here, something is off for me......I kind of want a reason to unvote.

Then We're looking for a reason to vote. Like others, I feel like this is odd. Why do you unvote here if you truly believe Fish is scum?

Dont mind my note monologue, i was derp and dont have a separate notepad for the game so i rather just find them in my ISO.

Well that is what is throwing me off tbh.

Oh man, nvm.....fish vote is good.

Oh man, nvm.....fish vote is good.

I wanted you dead yesterday and instead we got a dead townie.

Imp gets dead over night and I was one of like 3 people who had beef with him, and he had to make sure he slept with 2 gats underneath his pillow with the beef we had, so why does Imp die?

And then today you vote me for nothing and then beg me to call you off it with something, any reason to dissuade your fears.

You either see me as town or you dont, I understand why you dont and why you need to make this play here.

I had a smidgen of doubt about voting you, I wanted you to give me something to change my mind.......and you went the complete opposite direction.

Turkey is town, you tried to pocket him, you got caught, you are scum.

A townie would've been less happy to sheep me specially since my vote was a 180, if he knows you're scum and knows what im talking about then they know you're caught and would hard bus in a heart beat.
imo.

Nope, just confident based of yesterday and the flip he is scum. As soon as you voted him out of the gate I was on board.......just wanted to give him a chance to defend himself.

Ok, really need to sleep.

If he was SO confident he was scum, why did he want to unvote here?

What exactly is pretty damning about it.

It's very obvious from the posts themselves. Do you really want me to repeat them?

Yes, because I basically just explained away one of Sakuras reasons to vote me.

This pings me. Town doesn't "explain away." They "Explain their thoughts." This feels like a subconsious scumslip to me. Just another thing I thought I'd point out.

I have super secret reasons to trust Sakura

Cool. Then she shouldnt be afraid to out her secret info. Cause I know what I am and what I can do, I doubt she does and is taking a shot in the dark. A shot that Drew was more than happy to drive full behind.

One thing I am trying to get, is why would you push my lynch d1. Obviously you weren't protecting thes, and I get a feeling turkey may actually be town.

Help me out here, something is off for me......I kind of want a reason to unvote.

What was feeling off?
What did you mean you wanted a reason to unvote?

Sakura was feeling off to me, I first jumped on the Fish vote because I was like 'she is confirming my suspicions', but then I didn't know what she was doing so I wanted Fish to give some semblance of town motivation to maybe make me think twice about voting him. He did not and therefore my 1012.

Ok fair enough Sakura, but this was my motivation in the post. I can't speak with certainty whether Fish is scum or not and I was confused what was happening with your posting. I didn't want an excuse to get off the wagon, I wanted a reason to actually think that maybe he is town and maybe I need to look your way. He doubled down on scum, imo, hence my post.

You can spin this any way you wish, I was doing due dilligence on my top scum read, I fail to see why this is bad and your reasoning for voting me boils down to 'doctor drew is voting his top scum read'.

Why is this hard to grasp? No ulterior motives, no hidden agendas. Also, not taking my vote off Fish, I want Persivul to actually explain his sheep instead of deflecting, and everyone to look how Fish reacted to Sakura last night before she voted me.

If you don't see scum them fuck me sideways.

Again, if this is his strongest scumread, why as soon as Fish starts to point out the flaws does he back off? If this was a true scumread he pushes harder, not back down. Coupled with the fact that his top scumread was NOT Fish, but Thes and Gobble, as of this post:

In fact, fuck it. Shit or get off the face is what I say.

You are trying to deflect off thespio turkey man.....I think this is a scum v scum wagon, ie thespio and turkey are both scum.

VOTE: gobbledygook

And from that point on he declared his intent to lynch within the two top wagons.
SO
Yeah I think I see scum. It's Drew.
VOTE: Drew

[James Brafin]

I would but it’s like 1 in the morning here and I’m tired.
That being said, I’ll prob have some comments/questions/concerns when I reread tomorrow. Something about this exchange is seriously pinging me, almost as much as Drew.
Also HOLY COW THE THREAD IS CLOGGED

[James Brafin]

Drew, Gob

Then the last one is Gamma, Persivul, or Brafin.

Skygazer’s entrance just gut pings me as town.

Why me, exactly?

[James Brafin]

I’m not sure how I feel about Rick. I need to get to a computer and reread this entire day.
Still think there’s scum in Drew/Gob, though I have a hard time believing they’re a scumteam.
Pers I’ve been kinda ignoring. He strikes me as the kind of guy who just screws around as either alignment. I need to ISO him though.

[James Brafin]

I’m trying to not hard-tunnel everyone here, like I did yesterday, which ended up resulting in a mislynch.
I’m not sure I understand how giving others the benefit of the doubt is bad. Once I vote, I tend to not move it unless I get really convincing reasons otherwise. So a vote is a full commitment for me, and I’d rather NOT fully commit to a wagon unless we’re at a point where I’m certain beyond any reasonable doubt they are scum. Sue me.

[James Brafin]

Not gonna change my play style because you think I’m being too cautious.
I will go look at your ISO since I’m pretty sure this is the first time you’ve actually contributed anything meaningful and it’s a crap push.
But when you phone-post 95%, it’s a little hard to do anything but skim and try to keep up. I’m doing my best to stay with it but I’m moving into my dorm in literally 11 days and I’m super busy rn. I’m at my best when I can review the game and make large ISO’s, but that’s tough to do from a tiny screen, and makes me wary of my own reads. I may be picking up on things that aren’t actually there and/or missing critical information (like the fact that the push on Fish was a GAMBIT), or missing subtle player cues.
So please, keep pushing.

[James Brafin]

Back and reading.
UNVOTE: Because claim. I'm not sure I believe it, but I'm not willing to risk lynching a potential PR. I think Sky's points here are accurate though and I'm going to try and catch up tonight so that I have a decent idea of the plausibility.

[James Brafin]

Pretty sure Gobble is full of crud, but don’t have time to explain right this second. Will get to it in a little bit. Also, what part of I’m getting ready to move and it’s limiting my activity are we missing here?

[James Brafin]

Ok, first things first. I’m done with this inactivity bull.

@Mod, v/la until the afternoon of the 14th.

I’m trying to keep up as best as I can, but I’m moving out and it’s super insane. Activity level alone is NOT a reason to scumread me, but if you have other reasons let me know and I’ll try to find time to have a civil conversation.
We have three outed PRs here: Doc, Vig, and 1-shot tracker. Of all of those, the doc is the strongest I think. While I don’t like Drew’s play at all, the crumbs are semi-valid and there’s no reason to not question it.
Tracker is impossible to prove without a flip and really doesn’t tell us anything. I’m going to act like nothing’s there.
Vig bothers me to be honest. It’s a convenient excuse for Maf/SK that can’t reliably be cleared. And we’re supposed to assume Gob holstered N1? Of all the possible claims, this one is the most likely to be faked by scum. I also don’t like the over-emphasis on mechanics and activity levels and similar by Gob. While I think a bit of that is well and good, this seems like a bit much to me.

To be honest, I need my freaking flowchart. I’m going to whip that up for at least through day 1 and start to piece some associations together. Be back shortly.

[James Brafin]

VOTE: james

can we do this

Sure, if you can provide a better reason than inactivity.

[James Brafin]

I’m neither. I want sky lynched though (unless I missed a claim somewhere). They’re behaving super opportunistic here and I don’t like it.

[James Brafin]

Intent to hammer,
But how is sky scum? Im not sure how you can have this info.

[James Brafin]

Alright, I’m calling Gamma’s BS.
CC cop. I checked Persivul N1 and Rick N2. They’re both town.
VOTE: Gamma

[James Brafin]

Pers because he interacted with me super weirdly at the beginning of the game and then just kinda fell off my radar. Rick for somewhat the same reason, but also because of his weird replace-in and low-key lack of interaction. I’ve read that optimal cop checks their null reads first and that’s what I did.
I’m not gonna lie, this is only my second game as a PR. I didn’t crumb my result N1, because I try to fly way under the radar of both town and scum so I don’t get NK’d until I have at least 1 guilty, and I am NOT subtle at all. I’m not sure if that’s optimal play or not, but most of day 2 was me trying to lay low and not draw attention to myself.

Gamma: Hell yes it does. I’m not going to try and defend a shit inactivity read. If sky was going to actually have a reasonable discussion about things and try to make a decent case, then I would be willing to talk. Nice deflect though.

[James Brafin]

You know what the initial big claim post I think makes it more likely Gobb is SK over scum
VOTE: SkyG
I guess go on with this one? Also wdym lying about "one of the three"?

Out of idle curiosity, how does THIS come from cop?

[James Brafin]

And where is your crumb, because I can’t see it. All I see is you trolling.

[James Brafin]

Yes it does. I buy the tracker claim because IM THE FREAKING COP. Once the setup revealed itself I figured we would know if he was telling the truth or not. As it was, it was a claim that provided absolutely no information to town and just vanished, so I assumed it was a gambit. I almost checked him n2 but I felt Rick was a more pressing matter, esp. since we had setup-solved for the most part and the chances of his claim being false were low.

[James Brafin]

Pers I’ve been kinda ignoring. He strikes me as the kind of guy who just screws around as either alignment. I need to ISO him though.

Does a cop talk like this about their green check?

Again, trying to not draw attention to myself, while also trying to communicate that he was town. :p I did a pretty shitty job.
Out of curiosity, why are YOU defending Gamma? Are you going to let the man speak for himself?

[James Brafin]

Two words: Scum team.

[James Brafin]

Awfully convenient he checked you night one, isn’t it?
You’re trying awfully hard to defend a counter-claimed cop, aren’t you?
That doesn’t seem like town behavior to me.

[James Brafin]

Out of curiosity, why are YOU defending Gamma?

Because I belive him more than you.

Why? What reasons other than townreading you do you actually have for townreading him? Scum knows who town is, that “super secret reason” can be scum using a gambit as an opportunity to plant a fake crumb.
Of course, now I’m starting to see a world where you and Gamma are scum together, because if this isn’t a chainsaw/strawman I will legit be shocked.

[James Brafin]

Cop/tracker is Gamma by the way

Also since Gob is a FUCKING MORON I might as well claim. Yes I am cop and I got Sakura town n1. Got no result last night on Persivul which is why I'm so pissed at Gob.

Also this doesnt look like a fake reaction.
Even gob noticed Gamma was an investigative of some sort.

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

[James Brafin]

Two words: Scum team.

I tracked Sakura nowhere N1

So

That is not a clear. Just because Sakura didn’t move N1 doesn’t make her not scum.

[James Brafin]

Bleh can’t language. But my point being, tracker is a soft clear at best, and in a 3-scum game means almost nothing. Honestly you wasted your shot.

[James Brafin]

Cop/tracker is Gamma by the way

Also since Gob is a FUCKING MORON I might as well claim. Yes I am cop and I got Sakura town n1. Got no result last night on Persivul which is why I'm so pissed at Gob.

Also this doesnt look like a fake reaction.
Even gob noticed Gamma was an investigative of some sort.

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

>doctor died

The outed doctor? Wow, shocker that scum killed the outed PR instead of the “cop.” You ALWAYS kill informed town first. Gamma says that he got roleblocked and scum killed doctor. But that’s idiotic on scum’s part. Why would they not roleblock the doctor and kill a cop if they thought they knew where it was?

[James Brafin]

Cop/tracker is Gamma by the way

Also since Gob is a FUCKING MORON I might as well claim. Yes I am cop and I got Sakura town n1. Got no result last night on Persivul which is why I'm so pissed at Gob.

Also this doesnt look like a fake reaction.
Even gob noticed Gamma was an investigative of some sort.

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

I love how your counter here isnt trying to debunk that it wasnt fake, nor that he's a cop, but trying to say scum didnt notice it.

I love how your counter here is that Gamma’s claim was so obvious that everyone noticed it, when mechanically speaking that’s absurd.

[James Brafin]

Cop/tracker is Gamma by the way

Also since Gob is a FUCKING MORON I might as well claim. Yes I am cop and I got Sakura town n1. Got no result last night on Persivul which is why I'm so pissed at Gob.

Also this doesnt look like a fake reaction.
Even gob noticed Gamma was an investigative of some sort.

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

I love how your counter here isnt trying to debunk that it wasnt fake, nor that he's a cop, but trying to say scum didnt notice it.

I love how your counter here is that Gamma’s claim was so obvious that everyone noticed it, when mechanically speaking that’s absurd.

Well i did notice it.

That’s super convenient.
It’s not even a crumb! It can just as easily be scum taking advantage of a gambit. Which, considering my role PM, is EXACTLY what it was.
Let make it very clear to you: If everything Gamma is saying is true, he should not be alive. Drew should be. So there’s no way what Gamma’s saying can be true. And I think YOU know it!

[James Brafin]

And your argument that this is scum pulling a Hail Mary is just as absurd. If we assume that all of this stuff Gamma is saying is true, there’s only three confirmed town: You, Skellen, Gamma. That’s it. There are six other people that could or could not be scum, and they only need two of them lynched... There’s no need for scum!me to pull a HM to get us out of anything.

[James Brafin]

Cop/tracker is Gamma by the way

Also since Gob is a FUCKING MORON I might as well claim. Yes I am cop and I got Sakura town n1. Got no result last night on Persivul which is why I'm so pissed at Gob.

Also this doesnt look like a fake reaction.
Even gob noticed Gamma was an investigative of some sort.

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

>doctor died

The outed doctor? Wow, shocker that scum killed the outed PR instead of the “cop.” You ALWAYS kill informed town first. Gamma says that he got roleblocked and scum killed doctor. But that’s idiotic on scum’s part. Why would they not roleblock the doctor and kill a cop if they thought they knew where it was?

Please read the thread, scum.

[James Brafin]

So here's why I believe Gamma over James:

• James has no crumbs of his inno anywhere in his ISO, Gamma does.
  
• James tries to pass off him not treating his inno like an inno as him "hiding his role".
  
• James not having anything that proves he was getting results and acting like an actual cop because he was "flying under the radar"
  
• James CC coming coincidentially when he was getting PoE'd out, similarly completely ignoring Gamma's crumb (If he was a real cop he'd have seen it sooner than anyone), he only focused on my gambit
  which had the same crumb btw.
  
  
• His overall play being scummier than Gamma's.

With this im done talking with James, i believe he's just scum at this point and it's pointless to try to convince scum that they are scum.

Are you reading my posts or just skimming them? I’ve explained your first “point” pretty well.
You’re argument is not “why is Gamma more likely cop,” it’s “why is James more likely scum.” Literally your ONLY reason for Gamma to be cop so far is that he’s townreading you. I’ll go over Why this is all bull once I can get o a computer and don’t have to phone post.

[James Brafin]

So here's why I believe Gamma over James:

• James has no crumbs of his inno anywhere in his ISO, Gamma does.
  
• James tries to pass off him not treating his inno like an inno as him "hiding his role".
  
• James not having anything that proves he was getting results and acting like an actual cop because he was "flying under the radar"
  
• James CC coming coincidentially when he was getting PoE'd out, similarly completely ignoring Gamma's crumb (If he was a real cop he'd have seen it sooner than anyone), he only focused on my gambit
  which had the same crumb btw.
  
  
• His overall play being scummier than Gamma's.

With this im done talking with James, i believe he's just scum at this point and it's pointless to try to convince scum that they are scum.

1) See post #1895, which I'm pretty sure you just ignored.
2&3) I'm not good at crumbing. At all. And I'm trying my best to not make my role obvious and at the same time move my reads. This is my second game as a PR.
4) Two people is not a wagon nor a PoE. Nice try though.
5) OH MY GOSH ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME. I did not think that was a "crumb." I assumed that it was Gamma doing a gambit or similar. In fact, did you see THIS:

Nope he’s not.
He’s describing the fact that Sakura is full of crap because she did it actually go anywhere last night.
I thought I was townreading Sakura. I now have no trust in her at all. I’m going to go back and glance over her ISO to make sure, but something’s telling me we have caught scum.

I was thinking the scumteam was you/gamma, but when you claimed it was a gambit, I backed off. Now I'm thinking it actually WAS scum trying to push a mislynch. SO, there's that.

Oh and using NKA as an Absolute.

Occam's Razor. The world you are suggestion makes absolutely no mechanical, logical, or behavioral sense whatsoever.

Oh and using NKA as an Absolute.

Oh and if he was a real cop he wouldnt forget about the 1S tracker.

I didn't FORGET about him. That was a turn of phrase. I figured as we figured out the rest of the setup he would sort himself. After all, if I har really forgot about him, I wouldn't have mentioned him, would I have?

Your "views" have no basis whatsoever. Ladies and gents, I present desperate scum.

[James Brafin]

And where is your crumb, because I can’t see it. All I see is you trolling.

Once gob called him out I looked for a crumb, and it's plain as day. Like REALLY obvious.

I was looking at d1, not d2. :p I see it now, but my point stands.

[James Brafin]

Pers I’ve been kinda ignoring. He strikes me as the kind of guy who just screws around as either alignment. I need to ISO him though.

Does a cop talk like this about their green check?

Yeah, that seems pretty unlikely.

I honestly don’t know what to tell you. That was me trying to crumb that Pers was town subtly. I suck at crumbing. The idea was if I’m ignoring you after your behavior D1, I had reason to believe you weren’t scum. I was trying to not get myself NK’ed on what I deemed to be information that was of minor aid to town at that time.

[James Brafin]

Scum obviously didn’t, since he’s not DEAD.

No, if scum have an RB they could just block there and kill elsewhere. The NK proves nothing.

I’m going to be honest, that is the DUMBEST thing I’ve ever heard. As I’ve said before, scum always kills informed town. If they really had thought Gamma was the cop, they would have shot there. If that was actually what scum was thinking, someone was not being smart, to put it kindly, and neither was their partners.

[James Brafin]

The outed doctor? Wow, shocker that scum killed the outed PR instead of the “cop.” You ALWAYS kill informed town first. Gamma says that he got roleblocked and scum killed doctor. But that’s idiotic on scum’s part. Why would they not roleblock the doctor and kill a cop if they thought they knew where it was?

It makes no difference which one they block and which one they kill.

Why not?