Open 775: Hard-Boiled Eggs [Game Over]

[happyorange]

People should stop talking about roles, it doesn't benefit village and gives the werewolves more information than they deserve about who is or isn't what role. If you feel the need to discuss the setup, do so in a way that doesn't spew you as not X role. Hider outing is a terrible idea, optimal play for hider is to hide behind their strongest townread each night unless that player is vulnerable to a nightkill and if hider outs then it becomes very simple to narrow down who they are going to visit at night. Vigilante is also a lot more power for town than tracker, and the vigilante should be shooting the counterwagon each night, so as long as the vigilante is doing their job there should never be any real risk of the vigilante inadvertently hitting the hider. Detective/psychologist is going to have false positives with a vigilante around but that should never be a serious issue when claims happen, as long as they are sensible and don't out on day 2 or day 3 if they happen to get an early result.

[happyorange]

Don't necessarily agree with the above but it comes from town.

What makes you say that?

[happyorange]

Mmk so while hypo is a nice idea it's not necessary. Best chance for town is mathdinos strat in 487.

-hider claims late d1 without dropping reads/does not claim who they are hiding behind.

-tracker/vig chooses tracker and tracks hider.

-det/psych holds claim till late game if at all possible

This changes if tracker/vig is going to be lynched d1. In that case they take vig and shoot the scummiest target, hider moves freely.

Why

late

D1? I don’t see how it’d change anything :/

I agree with that the rest tho

I'm guessing to deal with a counter situation, but I can see problems with that.

In situations where you want to claim a role day 1, you claim later in the day rather than at the start of the day because it gives village more information from interactions before the player becomes a clear villager. You claim unconfirmable roles day 1 in large part to avoid issues with counterclaims later, but you don't really have that with hider because the hider can just announce that they're hiding behind their counterclaim and whichever hider doesn't die that night is a wolf. This is why no wolf who understands the role interaction would ever counterclaim hider, and why village never needs to spend kp on resolving a hider counterclaim, which is also why hider outing day 1 is bad.

[happyorange]

Not sure I follow with the counterclaim bit though. The fact tracker exists in combination with the hider makes scum unable to counterclaim the role.

Counterclaims happen because wolves believe they can get the role they're counterclaiming lynched, wasting village kp. Hider countercalims don't work this way, because if player A claims hider and player B counterclaims hider, village ignores them, they both target each other that night and whichever player is the real hider will die in the night. Village then lynches the fake claim. At no point does village need to spend time/energy or kp figuring out the counterclaim. Hider doesn't need to be mechanically confirmable with a track result because it's impossible for wolves to successfully counterclaim it, and leashing a tracker to a hider in order to mechanically confirm the hider is a waste of tracker's night action. Does that make sense?

[happyorange]

Hider claims don't cross target. The tracker can figure out the hider between the two via night actions and the hider knows the counterclaim is scum.

The way hider + tracker work in this setup is essentially a cop in combination.

Hider doesn't have to out their targets. Tracker follows the hider and if the hider lives the person they visited is a green check. If the hider dies and there is a nightkill then it's a red check.

Scum can't counterclaim hider in the setup. They can CC tracker but only if they successfully lynch the hider since he can corroborate the targets.

?

If that's true then hiders work differently here, because I've never encountered a hider role that can be tracked.

[happyorange]

Orange vs DK feels more like

TvT

to me

Uh, what? I don't remember doing anything other than ignoring DKK, not sure how you're imagining that as a TvT.

[happyorange]

Do you have any reads?

Eh, not to take anything away from your community but the game so far is only vaguely recognizable to me as the werewolf that I know. I'm more the type to gradually wade out into the waters and let the game wash over me at its own pace, so to speak, but without much in the way of reasoning/process being put out there I'm at a loss as to how I'm going to go about getting reads on people this game, even at my usual pace.

@orange, you played on some other sites, right? Can you say on which and for how long?

Nah. My wife and I are part of a werewolf community in my hometown, I've been playing most of my life.

[happyorange]

This whole game is a soup of ??? but at this rate I'll probably end up voting hiraki at the end of the day, don't know if their weird attempts to gaslight mage by calling them an idiot then insisting they aren't being rude by doing so actually make them a wolf given the way people seem to be behaving in general in this game, but I can see a world where they're going the discredit etc route as a wolf either because they want to make it easier to mislynch mage or because they want to dumpster mage's thread standing. Don't see any reason for them to do it as village other than out of simple mean spiritedness. Don't really know what my read on mage is, think I'd probably be townreading them if it weren't for the peformative way they've been engaging with people. Don't know if they're consciously presenting themselves in a performative manner or if I'm just perceiving their personality that way, or something else.

[happyorange]

Orange vs DK feels more like

TvT

to me

Uh, what? I don't remember doing anything other than ignoring DKK, not sure how you're imagining that as a TvT.

If it's not TvT, I take it you think DkKoba is scummy?

Does that mean something other than I think it does? I assumed it meant town versus town, aka two villagers fighting.

[happyorange]

Orange vs DK feels more like

TvT

to me

Uh, what? I don't remember doing anything other than ignoring DKK, not sure how you're imagining that as a TvT.

If it's not TvT, I take it you think DkKoba is scummy?

No.
I townlean DK.
Where did you get thia impression from?

If you look at the quotes, that question was for happyorange.

Huh?

Im saying orange vd DK felt TvT.

And you are asking orange, which of orange and DK are scum?

Huh?

Happyorange, in response to your question said, "Uh, what? I don't remember doing anything other than ignoring DKK, not sure how you're imagining that as a TvT."

I then asked Happyorange, "If it's not TvT, I take it you think DkKoba is scummy?"

You, I believe, thought I was asking you the question. I was asking Happyorange, who said that they had been ignoring DkKoba. I know your read on DkKoba from your original statement. There was really no reason for you to interject.

I feel like we're falling down a well with no bottom. :eek:

This is a marvelous post.

[happyorange]

Orange vs DK feels more like

TvT

to me

Uh, what? I don't remember doing anything other than ignoring DKK, not sure how you're imagining that as a TvT.

If it's not TvT, I take it you think DkKoba is scummy?

Does that mean something other than I think it does? I assumed it meant town versus town, aka two villagers fighting.

I think you've been calling Village what I would call Town (the good guys). I would call the Village the set of everyone who is playing and Town (the good guys) a subset and scum (the bad guys or werewolves) a subset.

Yeah, I use them interchangeably but tend to default to village. Village/town, villager/townie, wolves/mafia.

My confusion was that you called it TvT when you can't really have a shouting match if only one person is shouting.

[happyorange]

272 from madoka is town

Help me out a little here, because in my experience villagers tend to find it upsetting when someone isn't reading them correctly, whether that presents as some level of annoyance, or as confusion, or as a particular type of dismissiveness. There are a few obvious reasons why they might feel one or a combination of those things. You haven't responded in any of those ways, and I'm having a hard time finding a place to peg you in that regard. Madoka's read on you hasn't exactly been eloquently elaborated, and the post you mention here isn't even the one where they give a sparse bit of reasoning for why they think you're a wolf, so I'm struggling to see what you're seeing and why you think it's reasonable and even villagery for madoka to be wolf reading you here. Do you get mislynched very often? Help me get on your level?

[happyorange]

orange who do you think is scummy right now

That's a fun question, because pretty much everyone is scummy. Take your pick, tbh. Balancing for that, who do I think is actually a wolf? You'll be delighted to learn that I haven't even the faintest whiff of a wolfread. Not exactly my highest priority at the moment, but I'll be sure to let you know if one does come along.

[happyorange]

People should stop talking about roles, it doesn't benefit village and gives the werewolves more information than they deserve about who is or isn't what role. If you feel the need to discuss the setup, do so in a way that doesn't spew you as not X role. Hider outing is a terrible idea, optimal play for hider is to hide behind their strongest townread each night unless that player is vulnerable to a nightkill and if hider outs then it becomes very simple to narrow down who they are going to visit at night. Vigilante is also a lot more power for town than tracker, and the vigilante should be shooting the counterwagon each night, so as long as the vigilante is doing their job there should never be any real risk of the vigilante inadvertently hitting the hider. Detective/psychologist is going to have false positives with a vigilante around but that should never be a serious issue when claims happen, as long as they are sensible and don't out on day 2 or day 3 if they happen to get an early result.

This whole game is a soup of ??? but at this rate I'll probably end up voting hiraki at the end of the day, don't know if their weird attempts to gaslight mage by calling them an idiot then insisting they aren't being rude by doing so actually make them a wolf given the way people seem to be behaving in general in this game, but I can see a world where they're going the discredit etc route as a wolf either because they want to make it easier to mislynch mage or because they want to dumpster mage's thread standing. Don't see any reason for them to do it as village other than out of simple mean spiritedness. Don't really know what my read on mage is, think I'd probably be townreading them if it weren't for the peformative way they've been engaging with people. Don't know if they're consciously presenting themselves in a performative manner or if I'm just perceiving their personality that way, or something else.

These are town posts

No they're not.

This was a real VI post!

Very Informative.

:wink:

Not gonna lie, the perverse parent in me was desperately hoping this would turn into an intractable exchange of Pythonesque argumentation.

[happyorange]

so I'm struggling to see what you're seeing and why you think it's reasonable and even villagery for madoka to be wolf reading you here.

its a read in good faith

Ok, but how did you come to that conclusion? And how does that relate to their alignment? Wolves can make reads in good faith, ignoring the part where they're lying, and villagers can make reads in bad faith, so even if your thought is accurate and madoka acted in good faith, unless your thoughts go deeper all you're really going to be reading into is personality.

[happyorange]

I only vote if I'm willing to lynch/end the day.

btw, in iso, this is super pingy

If this wasn't a newer player sure.

Seeing how he referred to past games and meta, i'm not taking this as an excuse.

I assume that pingy means something like frozen, aka random bad vibes. Well you'd better start getting your happy scumread on because I don't care for voting until it needs to happen to get a lynch and I've been playing for I don't know how many years now. I think treating this kind of playstyle thing as anything other than playstyle is a pretty mistaken and rigid approach to the game. You're going to encounter a lot of different types of people in social games like these and you can't force them all to play the way you want them to.

[happyorange]

Relatability I guess. When I started I was of the same mindset that votes were primarily for when you held a solid scumread and it was your lynch of choice only.

It took multiple games to incorporate pressure voting or voting to gauge wagons and movement etc. etc.

also let's just assume for now that not voting is just 'your thing'

why are you not pushing/sorting players, on top of denying others trying to sort you?

This is a playerlist wide issue and this should be applied to every slot outside of battle mage.

You and battle mage are the only slots putting emphasis on day play at the moment.

Sorta disagree. The majority of players is at least voting, which is pushing/sorting on it's own.
Am I focused in on 1 player for something that more players are doing? Maybe.

What's your take on the matter?

I haven't seen any votes or cases that really have any substance. I can't really give credit if those votes aren't really doing anything.

Like, even battle mages case on Hiraki for example. I appreciate the meta dive but it doesn't tie into any scum motivation here or support scum behavior in this game. At best battle mage pointed out personality traits that I don't feel have much to do with this game in particular, so that doesn't help.

I'll probably reconsider what votes were meaningful and which weren't if Allo gets flipped today. Before that I'll say I made the vote with a goal in mind and the slots that joined after made me question if my initial read was off but Allo's responses tell me I probably hit the mark.

This is certainly a process. I have no idea what the process is or does exactly, but it does seem to exist. Gonna say tet has a little less of the mad scientist handrubbing vibe as a wolf (something something fred edison) but mostly it makes me want to put them aside for the time being and wait for them to clear themselves through sheer earnestness in a day or two.

[happyorange]

so I'm struggling to see what you're seeing and why you think it's reasonable and even villagery for madoka to be wolf reading you here.

its a read in good faith

Ok, but how did you come to that conclusion? And how does that relate to their alignment? Wolves can make reads in good faith, ignoring the part where they're lying, and villagers can make reads in bad faith, so even if your thought is accurate and madoka acted in good faith, unless your thoughts go deeper all you're really going to be reading into is personality.

If you're lying, you're not acting in good faith. A scumread by a scum player is always bad faith except for in multiball.

I don't think it's that simple, and please don't answer questions I've directed at other people.

[happyorange]

Actually, re-reading 418 and 423, I'll retract.

UNVOTE: Battle Mage

Because you realized it's actually a good post, or because you realized it has zero bearing on mage's alignment?

[happyorange]

Orange vs DK feels more like

TvT

to me

Uh, what? I don't remember doing anything other than ignoring DKK, not sure how you're imagining that as a TvT.

If it's not TvT, I take it you think DkKoba is scummy?

Does that mean something other than I think it does? I assumed it meant town versus town, aka two villagers fighting.

I think you've been calling Village what I would call Town (the good guys). I would call the Village the set of everyone who is playing and Town (the good guys) a subset and scum (the bad guys or werewolves) a subset.

Yeah, I use them interchangeably but tend to default to village. Village/town, villager/townie, wolves/mafia.

My confusion was that you called it TvT when you can't really have a shouting match if only one person is shouting.

I don't think you answered my question, or if you did, I didn't understand it. Did you think at that time that DkKoba was scummy?

I mean, he was blatantly being as scummy as possible to make a point of it. I didn't have him as any likelier to be a wolf than anyone else, though, if that's what you're asking. You're confused because 72 said "orange vs dk is tvt," then I said "there is no orange vs dk," and you thought I meant that it wasn't tvt because I didn't think dk was a t when I actually meant that there was no v. I had no opinion on dk's alignment.

[happyorange]

Oh, wait, is dk the person who uses gender neutral pronouns. Well, crap. Sorry dk.

[happyorange]

The more I think about it the more 72's read on me feels like it could be tmi. The way he came in with the "orange/dk is tvt" thing also feels like the type of archetypical observation a wolf might make, where the way the observation doesn't quite match reality suggests it isn't an organic thought coming from a villager. His reads in general seem pretty one dimensional but also aren't surface level, which is a bit of a concerning contrast. Not sure how I feel about this as an actual scumread, but also not really seeing much from him to make me overly doubt myself. I'd probably put it at a coinflip.

Vote: 72offsuit

[happyorange]

BM
78 and 82 - Slightly townie - agreed with his reasoning/mindset Re: the push on orange. His view of DK being aggressive and overcoinfident felt genuine.

125 and 131 - Slightly scummy - felt forced / the sort of thing scum prepares and then didnt even follow the thread to see allom had responded

174 - Slightly scummy - answer to my question wasnt really satisfactory, didnt get a town vibe from the response at all. Then I felt like he was buddying me
at the end of the post regarding me being possibly half right in Allom read

206 Townie vibe- the confbias consideration feels like someone coming from a town mindset

261 Significantly townie vibe - The analysis of the Orange wagon feels very pro-town and I agree with the rationale.
Then he goes on to say DK is scummy... lol. I think his read is still genuine, just wrong.

281 Townie vibe- Having a go at Hiraki actually oddly feels pro-town to me. Doesn't care about buddying hiraki or trying to put him onside.

That was annoying. I fixed your post links for you.

[happyorange]

Think I'm beginning to warm up to madoka being a villager. I disagree with a lot of what they say, but I can almost always see where they're coming from and think the way they're positioning themselves is probably a little too off-kilter to be the approach they go for as a wolf.

[happyorange]

Orange, can you address the points I made in 75 and 85? Do you see my point on why TV shouldn't choose Vig?

Sure, I think with the hider role you have here going for the tracker/hider interaction is a very strong option, think you get roughly the same number of clears from hider/tracker and hider/vigilante in a lot of cases, with the latter arguably faring better with a stronger village that can do more with the extra flips around wagons given by the vig. Think hider/tracker is probably the safer option given that you're almost guaranteed 2-3 clears with it, hider/vig probably has a higher ceiling because of the way wolves will have a much easier time of poeing hider shots once hider is outed, but you also have things like the potential to bait wolves into shooting into the poe in the effort to snipe the hider which can obviously go very well for village. Think most of the arguments around how it affects detective/psychologist are pretty irrelevant, the role card is very hit or miss mechanically and imo not something I'd orient the others around, think the role should almost never out until the day before lylo or in situations where there's only 1 wolf alive but I'd have to give it more thought to feel confident in that one way or the other. But this is all pretty moot, with hider outed here tracker/vig should go tracker 100% of the time, no doubt about that.

[happyorange]

72, what do you mean precisely when you say something is pro-town? You used it a few times in your recent stuff and I'm not clear on what you mean by it.

[happyorange]

Madoka, did looker move down your list because you think they're partnered with almost, or something else?

[happyorange]

I didn't out prematurely. The deadline was 40% done and the discussion was not going in a productive direction(i.e. too focused on me who would be confirmed clear).

Honestly, do you not see that the value of having you cleared is greatly diminished if you then don't do or say anything. You should be helping to lynch scum today, and worry about whether/where you're hiding later. :facepalm:

This is a bad post.

VOTE: Battle Mage

Actually, re-reading 418 and 423, I'll retract.

UNVOTE: Battle Mage

72, I read your thoughts on this, but I think the thoughtlessness around this sort of double take tends to be a villager thing more often than not. What's making you read it as aloram as a wolf realizing they said something that could be perceived badly and backpedalling to avoid the heat rather than a moment where their lack of agenda as a villager shines through? I think I have more issues with aloram than not but if they're a villager then this bit is probably an indicator of that, talk to me about it a little?

[happyorange]

I don't believe these:

I can't get a read on this fucking monkey, lmao

I'm also done with the monkey.

Regardless of Almost's alignment (thought it's worse if he's scum), Looker is making a show of her attempt to read him. This is one of the main scum tells I've picked up on her play. I made a full analysis of her meta here. Point 3 is the relevant tell.

Also as I mentioned somewhere above, Almost hadn't posted in between the posts where Looker was claiming to try and read him and the time she said he was done with him, so I don't believe it was genuine.

Thanks, I don't really care for or consider meta though so not going to dive into that part of it.

[happyorange]

Can you point me to where 72 talked about these posts? He talked about 339 and 340, but I don't recall him mentioning the posts you quoted. Or was that in a different thread?

Yeah, I mistook his backpedal comment as referring to different post than it was.

[happyorange]

madoka, I get what you're seeing in 431, but I've had villagers do the same thing in games with me and have done the same thing myself when I was feeling impatient with someone, don't think it's a very good indicator for someone's alignment. Not really going to talk about his case on me or anything surrounding that but the showmanship type angle in general is not something I would use to read into alignment, think it's much more about someone's personality than anything else in the majority of cases. I don't necessarily think you're wrong about almost50, but whatever his alignment is in this game I don't think those particular lines of reasoning are going to lead you to it.

[happyorange]

Orange and BM are you still open to lynching Hiraki?

Nah, sorry, think the dude's town.

[happyorange]

Reposting for those losing track:

Looker why were you done with Monkey if he hadn't posted anything between your 509 and 545?

The responses to the monkey was all I needed to know about the monkey

Please show this in detail.

Looker no one had commented on Almost in between those two posts and Almost hadn't posted. You're not telling the truth.

72, Battle Mage, Dk, Orange, Ico what are your thoughts on this?

I don't understand what he means by "the responses to the monkey," but I don't hugely get anything from it one way or the other. Not the type of thing I tend to think is very reliable to read into, the monkey stuff never made sense to me so it could be him as a villager randomly changing his mind about something that was probably pointless to begin with or it could be him as a wolf having a fake progression, not going to overly stress about it one or the other personally.

[happyorange]

Orange and BM are you still open to lynching Hiraki?

Nah, sorry, think the dude's town.

How come?

Eh, not a read I want to go into too much, find his playstyle to be extremely distasteful and don't like to reward players like him with village reads, but we've been seeing the game in some pretty similar ways at points, enough for me to put him aside as town for day 1.

[happyorange]

Orange you should probably claim.

?

Are you implying you're going to vote for me?

[happyorange]

we're approaching deadline. I personally want orange, if they claim PR , then go on DrDolittle. I start a 2nd job today so I'm proabably going to be limited access but from my brief reskim that's my conclusion, and my vote will stay on orange. I may or may not be back b4 hammer.

K.

VOTE: ORANGE

deadline: 2 days, 4 hours, 3 minutes

Why do you think I'm a wolf? Because I'm genuinely surprised there is even still a wagon on me, the wolf reads on me have been hilariously bad starting from dk randomly throwing a dart to the wall and deciding to tunnel me today. No one has put forward any actual reasoning for why I am evil here and I think you sheeping a clear villager on the consensus wagon is pretty suspect, so if you have actual thoughts of your on why I'm a wolf then talk about them, otherwise unvote or vote on a wagon you personally think will actually flip wolf.

[happyorange]

I'll be back in a few hours to kill my wagon, have to take care of something irl first.

[happyorange]

I don't understand what he means by "the responses to the monkey," but I don't hugely get anything from it one way or the other. Not the type of thing I tend to think is very reliable to read into, the monkey stuff never made sense to me so it could be him as a villager randomly changing his mind about something that was probably pointless to begin with or it could be him as a wolf having a fake progression, not going to overly stress about it one or the other personally.

I see where we are failing to see eye-to-eye. This is why meta is important. For example, say I told you I saw a man digging a giant hole at the park. There's nothing too interesting about that because of the sheer volume of possibilities as to why. Now say I saw your wife digging a hole at the park. You would find that much more interesting, yes? Because you know her and understand that would be a peculiar behavior coming from her. That's kind of what this is. It's futile trying to read into someone's behavior without experience with them (direct or indirect), but with such experience, peculiarities in their behavior become much more salient.

Let's ignore the discrepancy itself, then, and focus on the fact that she lied: 643, 645. Regardless of the reason

why

she changed her view on Monkey (change in mind or fake progression), the fact that she

lied

about her reason shows that it was not sincere.

Which part was the lie, sorry?

We can have a discussion about meta another time maybe, think what you're referring to is more along the lines of developing a baseline for a player which you don't need to know someone intimately to be able to do, think the vast majority of people behave in similar ways with similar motivations once you move past their personal quirks and things.

[happyorange]

I was neutral on the orange wagon at first, but I'm not a huge fan of how he's responded to the pressure. I guess I'll wait to see how he pleads his case.

How have I responded to the pressure iyo?

[happyorange]

I'll give you this though, if Orange isn't convincing when they come back, I'll put them at L-1 myself.

Gonna say hard yikes to that one.

[happyorange]

Right, I wasn't clear on whether you meant you thought looker was implying almost had responded and those responses were all they needed, or something else. Agree that it's not a great on the face of things, I'll look at it a bit more when I'm done with what I'm writing atm.

[happyorange]

I don't like to respond to people who wolfread me for a bunch of reasons, but the main ones are that

a) I'm always going to be biased given that I have my own opinions about how people should be perceiving me and what were intentions were when saying different things, so trying to get a read on other people from the way they're reading me incorrectly is imo a very unreliable way to form reads and not something I care for doing,

b) engaging with people on why they think I'm a wolf is a good way to muddy the thread with relatively unreadable nonsense, I'm not the right person to convince someone they're wrong about me because from their perspective if I'm a wolf I'm just going to be lying to them and telling them what they want to hear, and the majority of the time when people read you incorrectly there's no amount of things you can tell them about how they're wrong that will make them change their read, it's a different story if they have concerns about you that they ask you about specifically but that's not often the case, most of the time if they're going to realize they're wrong on you they're going to do it on their terms and not yours, trying to make it happen on your terms is a fast track to toxic game environments and burn out,

c) it's a waste of my time when I could be writing about other players, my thoughts on them and other things that would actually help me solve the game, think it's incredibly boring to talk about myself to other people or talk with them about me and doing so doesn't do anything for me, it's not why I play werewolf and never will be.

I get that I have to make an exception for a new crowd given that when people play werewolf they tend to read fear or incompetence into silence rather just lack of interest, but I'm genuinely baffled that my wagon is still a thing because no one has given any real reasons why I'm a wolf here and I don't think they can without realizing they're wrong as they try to articulate the read, though I may be giving people a little more benefit than they deserve. Things like allomancer's post 675 make very little sense to me because I've just been minding my own business and doing whatever takes my interest, if he thinks there's something to read into with regard to response to pressure I'd like to hear it because I don't really think I've bothered to respond at any point until now.

DK's wolfread on me starts on post 58, where they wolfread me essentially because the hider role that I know works differently to the one here. That really is the crux of that, there are other parts to it that come up later like them not understanding what optimal vig play is but all that happened here was a misunderstanding based in us having different information available to us. There are no other pieces to DK's read on me, at least that he has vocalized, as far as I can tell he just decided that I was scum for a random reason and has refused to reevaluate since. I assume that he's been hoping that I'll do something drastic so he has an excuse to admit that he's wrong and well, I guess this post is probably that, but I'm not the type of player to bother doing things that other people expect of me unless I have no other choice.

Almost's case on me in 559 is a repetition of the same mistake DK made, except it's somehow even more careless. His read is contingent on him not acknowledging my post 106 for what it is. Not really sure how he managed that, but it is what it is. His comment about role cards being on the front page is irrelevant, I actually read all the roles in detail at the start of the game and there's no mention of the hider being trackable, I had to message the moderator to confirm that. His gripe with my post 223 comes down to semantics, he essentially doesn't like the fact that I used different words than he's used to when expressing suspicion on someone. If you read my post rather than his snippet of it, you'll notice that I expressed suspicion of hiraki in the context of feeling lost in the game and not having a good idea of where I wanted to lynch. Don't think Almost does anything to try to get into my head to understand that post, whether that makes him a wolf or simply lazy isn't something I know the answer to when the bar for what passes as a villager in this game is as low as it is.

Hiraki hasn't expressed any reason for voting me or wolfreading me unless I glossed over it, really not anything for me talk about there except that I'd encourage them to actually try to put their thoughts on me down on the page, their last few posts have been an encouraging change of pace and think they're probably one of the few people here who might actually be capable of having a conversation and coming around on me if they put their mind to it.

Ico's only posts about me are his post 189 saying I'm partnered with DK and his post 481 saying that two of my posts were mech talk, which I assume means they think the posts are wolfy? There's no real elaboration there and I have no real idea what ico thinks they're seeing there, the second post quoted was my talking about my read on the gamestate/hiraki/mage and had no relation to mechanics.

Don't think 72 actually has a wolfread of me, his most recent read on me is null in post 498 where the wolfiest thing I've done is wolf read him, I assume his vote is just self-pres.

Those are the people on my wagon, think I vaguely remember someone else mentioning they thought my posts were hard to read which I don't think passes as a real read on me. Think if you've actually read the above then you'll find that there's been near to nothing put out there about why I'm a wolf, don't think the people who are wolfreading me genuinely know why they are or what their reasoning is and if anyone of them are actually able to articulate a coherent wolfread on me I would be pretty surprised. Think you have to willfully ignore or misinterpret some of my posts and cherrypick the ones you don't like to justify anything other than a village read on me, so anyone actually thinking of voting me or currently voting me should be talking about why or moving off my wagon. The wagon is bad from start to finish and the fact that next to no one is defending me here should be a strong indicator that I'm a villager, if you think someone's bussing me then talk about that, don't think you can make a real argument for it.

I'll make a post going over my reads next but please actually read the above and start proposing other lynches that actually make sense and aren't the result of lazy tunneling and complacency.

[happyorange]

Actually, have to go to the shops, will go over my reads a bit later.

[happyorange]

Currently, those against the wagon are BM/ddl/me

can you tell me why exactly you are against the wagon?
and why you'd vote on it anyway pending orange post?

I was trying to remember who asked me this already and it was you!

You had orange all the way down in your Rotten Eggs compartment for most of the day and posted quite a bit on scum!orange. What happened that put him up that much?

These:

Side bar: I like the tone in 172. 223 is good. 455 is good. Moving Orange up.

Offering to put them at L-1 is placation/compromise. I don't want them to be at L-1 before they've gotten a chance to say what they want to say. You want them to be at L-1 for pressure/claim. I'm offering to fulfill your goal in return for fulfilling mine.

Think it makes very little sense for you to want anyone you think is a villager to be at l-1 under any circumstances, but you do you.

[happyorange]

His read is contingent on him not acknowledging my post 106 for what it is

Let's assume you did think the Hider is totally untargetable. Why would you want the true Hider to out if scum fake claimed still? You said you would rather pick Vig over Tracker, but it really doesn't matter. Either could target the claimed Hider. Vig misses the real Hider but hits a fake claimer, and Tracker would -in your view- get a No Result while Tracker will either get "Went nowhere" or "Visited X".

There's no guarantee you'll have a vigilante, either because vig card wasn't taken or because vig died, and tracker would get a "went nowhere" type result, not no result at all, in other words if you're a tracker and you see a claimed hider visit anyone they're not a hider, the point of the role is be untraceable.

[happyorange]

Eh, I may have had the wrong mental image of madoka as a player, don't think it overly changes my read of them though.

[happyorange]

What I meant was 72offsuit voting Almost50...twice. Why wouldn't Madoka or 72offsuit acknowledge this? Am I just that bad of a player? That I get ignored?

Think the second vote there was just to put the vote on the correct player, since eiji had replaced out. What about that made you reconsider your read on almost50?

[happyorange]

Eh, I may have had the wrong mental image of madoka as a player, don't think it overly changes my read of them though.

Do you mean because of my bravado?

Something like that, yeah.

[happyorange]

@orange: As a person, I have no beef with you. I think I have to make that abundantly clear here.

Now,

if you're town

; I strongly suggest you take a look at the wiki for all roles before you play another game on MS. All investigative/informative roles get 3 types of results, a positive, a negative and a NO RESULT. The no result is given if the action fails whether it was due to target role (targeting Ascetic/Commuter/The Hider Variant that is untargetable.. etc) or the Investigative themselves (RB'dm JK's.. etc).

Since this is an Open Setup, we know there is no RB/JK/Rolestopper, so all players return a result of "Visited X" or "Went Nowhere" EXCEPT for the Hider (if they acted, and if they were the variant you claim to have thought they were.. the umtargetable type).

Will do, thanks.

[happyorange]

Eh, I may have had the wrong mental image of madoka as a player, don't think it overly changes my read of them though.

Do you mean because of my bravado?

Something like that, yeah.

It's a strategic persona based on the players that are in the game. It hurts that I disappointed you though.

Did 716 properly address your concern from 712?

Eh, can vaguely understand your thought process there, yes. Not something I would ever consider doing myself. Isn't a huge concern of mine right now tbqh.

[happyorange]

Mulled it over a little while I was out and I think chances of wolves shooting me tonight regardless of 72's alignment are high enough that I should probably just claim, don't want to run into a situation where dk rage targets me and gets sniped and we end up with 0 living clears from hider/tracker. I'm the pyschologist.

Don't have too much else that I feel like contributing atm, breaking my rule and talking about the wagon on me more or less sapped my desire to continue playing, would probably lynch between 72 and allomancer today without thinking too deeply about it. I'll be around to secure a lynch if needed but otherwise I'm pretty spent.

[happyorange]

also i don't see orange giving any reads on other players, only continuing their defensiveness as far as I see. My brain is fried so maybe I missed it but i'll reread

Predictable.

[happyorange]

Eh, never playing another game here imo. Don't think I've been in many places more toxic and completely absent of any sense of empathy or the desire to understand and appreciate others. Makes me feel very grateful for what I have here at home. Pretty glad to be on the way out in this game.

[happyorange]

?

I assume Looker is trying to get away with pretending to counterclaim without actually doing so hoping village plays along before they have to say anything? Not very interested in a 72 lynch anymore regardless.

Vote: Looker

[happyorange]

Each of those individual reads by 72offsuit from 489 to 507, each person, are those good reads on you?

Feel like you didn't read any of the post where I talk about how I don't read into people's reads on me.

[happyorange]

What a shitshow.

[happyorange]

Also, something has tickled me about the player "happyorange" being the most miserable and angry in the game. more like "angryorange"! :lol:

Think you're misreading my tone. Don't really find myself getting emotionally involved in werewolf for the most part anymore, certainly not in a game where I don't anyone slash have no reason to be invested, think if there was any emotion I had to pick it would probably be something like existential horror at the majority of what I've seen here but that's still more of an intellectual thing than an emotion and not about me so much as my love and respect for the game.

@battle
@orange

care to comment on ico v madoka?

Didn't bother to read most of it, think you're one of the slimiest players in the game regardless of your alignment, your treatment of me makes far more sense coming from a wolf than anything madoka has done. Don't have much of a read on madoka atm, I don't do well reading into erratic/irrational types except over a longer time span with plenty of time to let the read percolate which isn't a luxury I have here. Think the way people have tried to dogpile them for being inconsistent/unpredictable says more about the people jumping on them than it does about them imo, think it's bad play but whether or not it makes them evil is eh, not a position I'd take in most cases. Dwelling on it beyond that is pointless imo because I'm never voting them today and I'm not living long enough for it to concern me beyond that.

Have a lot of problems with Tet's play the past ~24 hours, think that or Allomancer is probably my favored lynch here but I'll be around to secure a lynch wherever.

[happyorange]

Vote: DrDolittle