Open 807 | Town Win

[Battle Mage]

Tone of 52-54, I don't think scum expresses that they are town so outwardly like that.

This read feels forced

where's your vote?

oh lol it's on Scipio never mind then

i didnt realise this had started. this joke(?) is a bit awkward - feed line, then a 90 minute gap before the punch line? you turned up, made an insipid comment, then came back an hour and a half later to check it's veracity. but nothing more.

VOTE: Save The Dragons

[Battle Mage]

its awkward regardless

[Battle Mage]

weekend V/LA until Monday PM

[Battle Mage]

@STD: You remind me much of a player named Fenrir

Serious talk: I may not have any confident reads yet, but I feel like the top 4 posters are indeed all Town, and that scum are happy to let them take bouts at each other while they wait for a chance to jump on the duel loser.

Like, seriously.. SIX players have posted less than N_M??

there was no PM to say the game had started, and then it was the weekend shortly after.

[Battle Mage]

BM is a Scum lean (no this is a true hyper-poster in my experience, but is not posting nearly enough. (I do realize he's on VLA, but it's a 21 hours span between his first post and the one in which he declared VLA, and he only posted once between the two)

I'm not overwhelmed by any relative activity based reads, in a game where it's perfectly reasonable some people would post less, and the fact some people are posting less might legitimately induce others to post less.

On your meta on me specifically...you need to update it. I'm not a hyper-poster so much these days. Depends on my mood and how busy I am.

[Battle Mage]

@A50, why do you think people who post more are likely to be town? And vice versa?

It's not a general rule. I just think the ones

in this game

are.

Yeah I think this is

probably

wrong.

there you go - 3 consecutive posts. maybe i am still a hyper poster...

i'll be back properly this time tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

there was no PM to say the game had started

Yes, there was...

Nope

[Battle Mage]

interesting, looks like you (Battle Mage) weren't put on the PM for some reason unless you were bcc'd

The mod probably tried to send it to Battle_Mage.

you're saying everyone got a PM except me, and I wasn't on the copylist? then why is PenguinPower suggesting I did get one?

[Battle Mage]

PP said there was one. I think he assumed it was sent to everyone, without checking.

now that you've contributed to the banal discussion of whether or not the mod sent battle mage a pm, anything to say about the game?

LOL

[Battle Mage]

games with 2 militanks are pure awesome ngl

<3 hype hype hype

You mean the post where I said there was a Day 1 start PM? Because there was - I didn’t look to see who received it and assumed that the mod would have sent it to everyone...shame on me.

I mean shame on you for calling me a liar without checking your facts i guess

[Battle Mage]

If anything that's a towntell on STD (Save? Dragons? What is your preferred shortening if any :X). It shows he's looking at the thread proactively even as the most recent poster.

errr....no. that's not right. null? maybe. towntell? nope.

[Battle Mage]

Artemiana's ISO ain't great in the early going. Shading Pooky from the sidelines (when Pooky is looking town AF), unexplained vote on me when i was getting heat, and has already acknowledged finding it difficult to feign scumhunting.

VOTE: Artemiana

let's do this

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: something_smart

chainsaw? tell me why though?

[Battle Mage]

I dont think something smart had been useful all game.

Artemiana is null for me atm. Would like to hear more.

can you show me/tell me one thing Artemania did which you found "useful"? Just interested in understanding why you made a conspicuous decision to wagon SS instead?

[Battle Mage]

Its not only easy to wagon someone who is V/LA but extremely disrespectful

I'm probably going to be gone for an additional 24 hours so I don't chew out everyone who is/was on my wagon.

haha yeah chew me out, i'd love to see it. not even remotely disrespectful.

[Battle Mage]

i think it's genuinely disappointing we couldn't get a bigger wagon on a player who, if scum, is likely to crumble under the pressure.

[Battle Mage]

good cop...ok....

"Golly gosh, gee whiz, I didn't mean to offend with my vote! You're innocent until proven guilty, and I'll give you every chance to get yourself off the hook. But you need to help me, help you. Otherwise I won't be able to keep you safe from that trolly Penguin and the Pookster. Just confide in me, tell me the truth - are you scum? Is that why you've been brazenly trying to kill the good guys? I can get you a good lawyer, maybe just a suspended sentence. But you need to start talking."

[Battle Mage]

busy work-wise but alright overall, you?
we could run Artemiana up to -2

[Battle Mage]

why haven't you resized your avatar yet dude?

we gotta look professional when Her Majesty arrives to talk to us peasants.

i've accepted i'm just a big fat old cow

[Battle Mage]

ehhhh it's still dayphase?

[Battle Mage]

not mafia was already on artemiana when he "hammered"

yeah i know, but it's been hours since then and it doesn't look like the player is going to claim or anything.

[Battle Mage]

I don't especially like the Artemiana wagon but I am getting tired of waiting for her to do something, mostly because I still think when she does it'll be relatively fruitful to read off of.

doesnt make sense. why would you thinking she will post something valuable be the justification for potentially joining her wagon (or at least, reducing your opposition to it, as implied)?

[Battle Mage]

I don't especially like the Artemiana wagon but I am getting tired of waiting for her to do something, mostly because I still think when she does it'll be relatively fruitful to read off of.

Here's a

serious

take: I voted Artemiana as meme/joke, but now I do seriously SR her. Going quiet when @L-1 is the scum response to being wagoned "for no reason" and she is counting on it dissolving soon as people grow bored of waiting. That is usually the case on D1. Scum expect wagons to shift off them if they don't talk much because Town will get cold feet yeeting a silent slot so early. My vote in cemented.

ja

also quick unopposed wagons like this flip scum more often than your average wagon

and to be clear, the player in question didn't even go quiet at E-1, it was more like, from the first vote, instant shut-down.

[Battle Mage]

be the justification for potentially joining her wagon

Wasn't trying to imply that it would be.

I don't intend to ever join it or hammer in this game

, at least not for at least like 4 more RL days or so.

bold is a strong assertion. Considering your take on the wagon a few posts ago was a fairly cautious "I don't especially like [it]", and your subsequent phrasing in post 533 sounded like you were paving the way for a vote (citing your frustration with the player not being here).

can you tell me what you're planning to do in that 4 RL days?

[Battle Mage]

and to be clear, the player in question didn't even go quiet at E-1, it was more like, from the first vote, instant shut-down.

She was V/LA.

nah, she posted and said she didn't wanna post anymore because she felt disrespected at getting voted or something.

[Battle Mage]

yea she said it was rude for us to vote for her or something

was some straight out of Downton Abbey nonsense

like we peasants aren't allowed to look at the nobility or something

suspect I'm a minority of 1, but I laughed hard at the Downton Abbey reference.

[Battle Mage]

nah, she posted and said she didn't wanna post anymore because she felt disrespected at getting voted or something.

That is definitely not what happened.

it is. gotta read the game like me and pooky.

or, just for fun, you can tell me what you imagine happened instead?

[Battle Mage]

Its not only easy to wagon someone who is V/LA but extremely disrespectful

I'm probably going to be gone for an additional 24 hours so I don't chew out everyone who is/was on my wagon.

just to save Something Smart from going back and re-reading, or wasting pages being wrong.

[Battle Mage]

I think Implosion could be scum.

But PenguinPower clearly crumbed hiding with Not Mafia.

[Battle Mage]

the intransigence from A50 is odd.

Today I would like to elim someone who was off-wagon. fairly open-minded about who at present.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: almost50

[Battle Mage]

Pooky have you got the big guilts for killing 2 of your partners?

[Battle Mage]

am i the only one who thought it was interesting that 1 scum was just a goon? likely there are fewer town PRs I guess.

could be Mini-scum. but wouldn't Mini power up the partner?

[Battle Mage]

it feels like the sort of game we should be winning early haha

[Battle Mage]

think so?

[Battle Mage]

qq can mafia give multiple powers to a person?

B_M why do you think Mini would power up the partner?

Mini is personally a nice and benevolent character, and would be more likely to:

1. Encourage their teammate to take a cool PR.
2. Get excited at having a high powered team.

But now Salsa is making me 2nd guess the setup haha. I need to do some more thinking.

[Battle Mage]

Artemiana being so pissed off makes me think it slightly more likely they were being bussed. especially because like, the player was just a goon, so it wasn't that big a deal for them to eat one.

and whoever their teammate is, could be a big ego-head, who wanted to deprive the newbie of having a cool PR.

I find it hard to believe Pooky would be like that. But Pooky might be the sort of clever so-and-so to just pick 1 or 2 super powerful PRs to leave a fakeclaim available.

it was weird that 3 players just sheeped me blindly yesterday without much evidence - and 2 of them have already flipped town, so were they all town?

[Battle Mage]

the mafia traitor thing is interesting - the traitor doesn't know who the scum are, but the scum presumably know the traitor? or maybe not, as that makes the recruiting ability quite powerful.

@Mod - does mafia know who traitor is?

[Battle Mage]

ok time to get serious! VOTE: Implosion

Implosion's ISO is real interesting - just looking through, lots of references to Artemania - originally premier townread somehow, and although acknowledges 1 scummy post, Implosion does more than anybody to try and subtly protect Artemania from the sidelines.

And in particular, these posts pinged me a lot yesterday:

be the justification for potentially joining her wagon

Wasn't trying to imply that it would be.

I don't intend to ever join it or hammer in this game

, at least not for at least like 4 more RL days or so.

bold is a strong assertion. Considering your take on the wagon a few posts ago was a fairly cautious "I don't especially like [it]", and your subsequent phrasing in post 533 sounded like you were paving the way for a vote (citing your frustration with the player not being here).

can you tell me what you're planning to do in that 4 RL days?

I don't especially like the Artemiana wagon but I am getting tired of waiting for her to do something, mostly because I still think when she does it'll be relatively fruitful to read off of.

doesnt make sense. why would you thinking she will post something valuable be the justification for potentially joining her wagon (or at least, reducing your opposition to it, as implied)?

Spoiler:

I mildly like Artemiana, std, pooky, maybe a50 for town.

Mildly like Dunnstral and MiniMegabyte for scum.

be the justification for potentially joining her wagon

Wasn't trying to imply that it would be. I don't intend to ever join it or hammer in this game, at least not for at least like 4 more RL days or so.

can you tell me what you're planning to do in that 4 RL days?

Mostly chill and play the game. The point being that there are still people that I want to hear more from (Mini, Dunn, Artemiana), and if Artemiana is town then an early hammer on her would mean a not especially useful day imo.

I guess if the traitor wasn't recruited, then they're almost certainly offwagon, yeah? No reason to bus as a traitor with a 2-person scumteam.

That said I guess both of the people I somewhat suspected yesterday are offwagon so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

There's probably jack shit useful associatives from Artemiana as well. Maybe like Pooky-town but I wasn't especially thinking Pooky was scum.

[Battle Mage]

the mafia traitor thing is interesting - the traitor doesn't know who the scum are, but the scum presumably know the traitor? or maybe not, as that makes the recruiting ability quite powerful.

@Mod - does mafia know who traitor is?

From wiki, the traitor knows who are the mafia but the mafia team doesn't who is the traitor ig.

ohhhh the traitor knows who mafia are? that's helpful, so 2 players with associative relationship to the dead scum.

[Battle Mage]

It's unlikely that any of the late votes were bussing, with the exception of STD.

I don't think it's out of the question for BM to start that wagon as scum, since he wouldn't have expected Artemiana to just roll over and die. But I'll have to go back and look at the circumstances under which the vote was made.

in hindsight, this is a weird take. Clearing the late jumpers as town, when it was pretty obvious it was a consensus elim, but not those driving the wagon early. It's possible I'm scum here, but objectively it's less likely than the late jumpers in terms of normal wagon behaviour.

Given Artemiana was just a goon, I think it's definitely possible scum bussed late.

Separately, Something_Smart was an Artemiana defender at first, until realising how screwed Artemiana was, and then joining the majority opinion. Not to mention, Something_Smart did virtually nothing on Day 1, despite posting a lot.

would Something_Smart hog the PRs and not share with the newbie? dunno

[Battle Mage]

Artemiana being so pissed off makes me think it slightly more likely they were being bussed.

This is actually an interesting theory

I would say that the most likely busser (aside from STD who doesn't count) is you, but I'm not sure I feel that way now because you were the first one to bring this up.

yes, I'll give you points for consistency, given I was just responding to the first time you made that inference.

I feel pretty weird about you wanting to give immunity to the latecomers in prime bussing territory, but focus your attention on me instead? Especially since you haven't really been pushing anyone off wagon either?

[Battle Mage]

Mini is personally a nice and benevolent character, and would be more likely to:

1. Encourage their teammate to take a cool PR.
2. Get excited at having a high powered team.

I mean scum should give power to the player more likely to survive, and given that Artemiana rolled over and died, it's likely that most teams wouldn't have given her a PR.

I think lots of scumteams (myself including fwiw) would have been excited at being able to choose PRs, and would have given both players a PR. It's almost a trade-off between focus on winning and just having fun with the gimmick.

also presumably the scumteam wasn't expecting Artemiana to capitulate quite like that. I definitely get the sense that Artemiana didn't get on well with the teammate - maybe there was a lack of team cohesion.

[Battle Mage]

I feel pretty weird about you wanting to give immunity to the latecomers in prime bussing territory, but focus your attention on me instead? Especially since you haven't really been pushing anyone off wagon either?

I'm not pushing anyone at all.

exactly - you're not pushing anyone. All you've done is defend Artemiana and try to buy the slot more time, and now throw the weakest shade at me.

I think the chances of scum in this position not wanting to rock the boat with too many scumreads is HIGH.

[Battle Mage]

I think you are underestimating how bad it is for scum to lose a member D1. Follower becomes a cop. Jailkeeper becomes even stronger than a cop. Artemiana wasn't a consensus execution until those late people jumped on-- she hadn't even given any content.

I think it was highly likely Artemiana was getting run up as soon as the Pooky-Penguin-NotMafia-BM block all voted there. There was no alternative wagon of any consequence. It was incredibly predictable, and I think a scum PR probably wants to be jumping on there late to get some cred which they will need to see them through.

You're right it would be really bad for their partner to lose them, but it was also looking inevitable earlier than you suggest.

[Battle Mage]

Mini is personally a nice and benevolent character, and would be more likely to:

1. Encourage their teammate to take a cool PR.
2. Get excited at having a high powered team.

I mean scum should give power to the player more likely to survive, and given that Artemiana rolled over and died, it's likely that most teams wouldn't have given her a PR.

I think lots of scumteams (myself including fwiw) would have been excited at being able to choose PRs, and would have given both players a PR. It's almost a trade-off between focus on winning and just having fun with the gimmick.

also presumably the scumteam wasn't expecting Artemiana to capitulate quite like that. I definitely get the sense that Artemiana didn't get on well with the teammate - maybe there was a lack of team cohesion.

i think its highly likely scum didnt pick encryptor since it has no mechanical effect on the game, hence no daytalk, hence they didnt have any cohesion at all.

ah that's really interesting, I hadn't clocked that!

[Battle Mage]

Pooky, if you had to pick within the Implosion-Something_Smart pool, where do you go first?

[Battle Mage]

I think it was highly likely Artemiana was getting run up as soon as the Pooky-Penguin-NotMafia-BM block all voted there. There was no alternative wagon of any consequence. It was incredibly predictable, and I think a scum PR probably wants to be jumping on there late to get some cred which they will need to see them through.

You're right it would be really bad for their partner to lose them, but it was also looking inevitable earlier than you suggest.

yea but it makes no sense for SS-scum to soft-defend the latewagoners - he needs every mis-elim he can get at this point

scum should be trying to broaden POE not shrink it.

SS-scum also needs allies, and as you say, it was a pretty soft and insubstantial defence. more notional than practically useful. SS would easily be able to retreat from it if needed.

SS was keeping POE plenty broad enough.

[Battle Mage]

I'd kill Implo over SS any day of the week tho I'm not even sure I want to limit the elim to those two slots.

they are the 2 wagons i wanna see for now. we can see where they lead.

always punish players who defend scum.

[Battle Mage]

exactly - you're not pushing anyone. All you've done is defend Artemiana and try to buy the slot more time, and now throw the weakest shade at me.

I think the chances of scum in this position not wanting to rock the boat with too many scumreads is HIGH.

Sure... but this is how I always am. Artemiana was wagoned while V/LA without any chance to defend herself. Then when she came back she decided not to participate, which is of course a different matter.

And I would never be strongly pushing a scumread this early in the game, as either alignment.

(Also, I'm not sure I agree with the claim that scum would be sitting around doing nothing right now. They're in a pretty terrible spot and so I would think they'd need to try to establish mis-exes before town gets its shit together, rather than narrowing the field, as Pooky said.)

I don't agree that you actually narrowed the field. literally nobody would have read your post and thought that was a strong basis to not consider late bussers, therefore it was more presentational than meaningful.

I also don't agree good scum strategy here would be to start actively and conspicuously pushing for mis-elims - especially if they weren't even on the wagon, as you weren't. it would be a short life expectancy play so early.

I'll give you the credit on the meta point though. Last time I remember playing with you, you were town and mostly lurked.

[Battle Mage]

always punish players who defend scum.

That's silly. That will just teach people to never defend anyone rather than actually learn to distinguish good arguments from bad.

When Artemiana was first run up, the case on her was incredibly weak. Doesn't matter that she was scum. The only solid evidence came when she came back from V/LA and then refused to participate.

the case was weak, but that doesn't really matter. what matters is plenty of folk went with it, and you didn't. You don't think scum bussed, so who do you suppose is scum? Implosion?

[Battle Mage]

the case was weak, but that doesn't really matter. what matters is plenty of folk went with it, and you didn't.

Why does that matter? I would never join a wagon based on a case that weak.

You don't think scum bussed, so who do you suppose is scum? Implosion?

Mini, implosion, STD, Dunn are the people I'm looking at, roughly in that order.

my gut feeling is I'm willing to give Mini a pass for today. I think if Mini is actual scum, Mini gives a PR to Artemiana. I'd rather focus on the players who I think would have left the newbie with no power in a game where the gimmick is about scum choosing whatever PRs they want.

I also think if Mini is scum, town pretty much always wins this game now, so there's no rush to do that elim. Maybe one for tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

my gut feeling is I'm willing to give Mini a pass for today. I think if Mini is actual scum, Mini gives a PR to Artemiana. I'd rather focus on the players who I think would have left the newbie with no power in a game where the gimmick is about scum choosing whatever PRs they want.

I also think if Mini is scum, town pretty much always wins this game now, so there's no rush to do that elim. Maybe one for tomorrow.

The first statement here, I have two problems with. One, less importantly, I just disagree that you can read that strongly into how someone would distribute PRs. Do you have extensive experience with MiniMegabyte? Where are you getting the idea that she's the kind of person who would want to load scum with PRs? Second and more importantly, this doesn't disqualify her from being scum even if correct, because she could be a traitor (or a recruited traitor) who'd have no say over how PRs were chosen.

The second statement here, basically amounts to "I think MiniMegabyte will be eliminated before the game ends", which, i mean, why not do it now so that we can go into future days with more information when we eliminate people that we're less sure we're going to eventually eliminate ?

By way of rebuttal:

Firstly, I know Mini very well, we've shared a few recent small games together, and in doing so, I read most of her other games (in the absence of which, clearly I wouldn't be well placed to assess the player's tendencies). I don't think it's impossible that she could do it, but I consider it pretty unlikely. And I do think that profile fits other players significantly better, and I'd prefer to focus attention there. So even though she hasn't done anything particular townie in this game so far, I'm willing to scope her out of the pool for today - but with a willingness to revisit later.

Secondly, it's perfectly possible Mini is a traitor. But I'm not taking it as a given that mafia picked the recruiter ability - in which case, traitor hunting would be a complete waste of time. And in general it feels like we're better off going for players who have a likelihood of being mafia or traitor.

Thirdly, when town is in the ascendancy I prefer not to elim the easy target - the town majority is huge, and we should avail ourselves of that. It's an opportunity to put some of the more assertive characters to the sword. I also vehemently disagree with the inference that Mini is a particularly informative elim. Mini is an obvious elim in the same way as yesterday, but I don't think the flip is the same.

Additionally, the fact we're actually discussing this at such length, makes me feel even more strongly I don't want to look there today. Being real, the pool is huge - I think I'm allowed a bit of discretion for 1 day.

[Battle Mage]

Right now I'm inclined to townbin, roughly but not strongly in order of strength: Salsabil, Pooky, Battle Mage, STD, A50.

You're more liberal with townbinning than I am, heh. I do want to re-read Salsabil, but on previous experience Salsabil can look pretty scummy as town, and the vibe I get from the player here is similar, so gut leans town. I think Pooky's slot probably resolves itself in due course - I certainly wouldn't locktown it, but it's not a priority for today.

[Battle Mage]

multiple people have townslipped or fake-townslipped... Salsabil with, well, most of what she's doing kind of (her seemingly having not thought for a moment what the setup looks like from scum perspective). Battle Mage twice, once with not knowing traitor mechanics and more significantly here:

But Pooky might be the sort of clever so-and-so to just pick 1 or 2 super powerful PRs to leave a fakeclaim available.

because I'm fairly sure the setup doesn't have scum pick town roles, it just has them effectively pick how many there will be. Or I guess the phrasing in OP is a little ambiguous since it does say some are granted by mafia but it also says some are granted randomly so they wouldn't have safe fakeclaims either way.

I don't think either of those are townslips by me. Yes, I'm not even sure I understand now how the traitor mechanic works, but that's because I'm a moron, not because I'm necessarily town. Although I guess it suggests I'm not a traitor, since I'd have a role PM for it. Although maybe I shouldn't say that as it helps scum narrow down who the traitor is.

On the 2nd one, I did know the bit about picking the number, but my point was that scum could pick up to 3 PRs, and town would get an equivalent 3 PRs. So if scum pick say, 2 PRs, they will be able to fakeclaim PR without it being demonstrably impossible (because town would have 4 legit PRs, but could have a 5th). I also don't know if the roles can double up - i.e. there could be 2 Hiders, in which case any of those roles could be a safeclaim.

Artemiana being so pissed off makes me think it slightly more likely they were being bussed. especially because like, the player was just a goon, so it wasn't that big a deal for them to eat one.

Remember

there might be a traitor

; it's possible for goon to be a very important role in this setup.

That said I'm not sure why S_S is acting like scum can't recruit the traitor? In my mind recruiting the traitor is the #1 powerup for scum to pick. We need to temper assumptions around the existence or non-existence of a traitor until later in the game post-massclaim (if it even lasts that long).

Was the bold your attempt at a townslip? You pretending not to know that there is a traitor in the setup? Stretching credulity here!

[Battle Mage]

I'm also hard mindmelding with a lot of S_S's posts

imo the pool for today is {Mini, Dunnstral, maybe implo} in that order.

....2 lurkers? i know you can do better than that. Join me on Implo! Trust me, I'll give you a clean sweep!

[Battle Mage]

Perhaps they can, but that requires them to both know who the traitor is and sacrifice a kill, with pretty disastrous consequences if they're wrong.

D'oy. I forgot that this changed from the old version of stack the deck to this one. Never mind.

in which case, the traitor is slightly redundant anyway?

[Battle Mage]

What do you think of my Mini case, BM?

I think it's clutching at straws, but you didn't have a lot to work with. I'm open minded to the idea Mini could be a traitor, but elimming the traitor serves no purpose if we are assuming there isn't a recruiter (I'll defer to you boffins on that one).

Basically, I'm not elimming Mini today, and I think it's a pretty lame play. And also considering I'm probably dying tonight I'd selfishly like to elim someone I genuinely suspect today.

[Battle Mage]

I'm also hard mindmelding with a lot of S_S's posts

imo the pool for today is {Mini, Dunnstral, maybe implo} in that order.

....2 lurkers? i know you can do better than that. Join me on Implo! Trust me, I'll give you a clean sweep!

implo's townier than those two though

dude, the other 2 have done virtually fuck all.

Implo was the biggest defender of known scum, in a game where we have now established scum are massively handicapped now 1 of them is dead.

How in God's name do you figure Implo is townier than 2 lurkers??

[Battle Mage]

I'm completely baffled with you Scipio, completely baffled.

[Battle Mage]

all being said, I don't wanna elim Mini today, but I do actually want Mini to do something.

[Battle Mage]

I'm completely baffled with you Scipio, completely baffled.

hmm

implo, what are your thoughts on the bm attack on you?

Implo can answer that, but I'm really really eager to hear your thoughts on my case (or as you call it, "attack") on Implo.

Gimme some content, because I'm really not following your positions at the moment (preferring elimming lurkers to people who have actually done scummy looking thing, especially Dunnstral, who I'm not sure you mentioned before today), and I'm sure you engaging with my reasoning will be constructive in sorting you.

[Battle Mage]

if I put myself in the mind of Scipio, I don't understand how you came to your scumreads. You were quite supportive of Implo on Day 1, and you casually joined the scum-elim wagon late-ish. But Implo is now 3rd on your list?

Instead of engaging with me, you ask Implo what that player thinks.

[Battle Mage]

implo has said some decently townie things; Mini and Dunnstral have not (yes ik they're practically nonexistent)

obviously people offwagon are scummier today than yesterday which is why mini and dunnstral are top of my limpool

your confidence in your attack makes me reconsider and question myself which is why I'm asking him what his thoughts are about it

if you read the player's recent posts, you'll see Implosion has already shared thoughts on it. All within the thread, my friend.

in terms of the on-wagon vs off-wagon distinction, I don't think it matters as much for players who simply didn't do anything. It's considerably worse to have actively defended scum, than to just happen to have been inactive when town happened to elim scum.

[Battle Mage]

Scipio - if you're brave here, and follow my lead, you'll be remembered as a hero forever.

[Battle Mage]

._.

i know what you want

[Battle Mage]

Eliminating a traitor doesn't do nothing, even if there's no recruiter. It gives us info that there's only one scum left. It gives us associatives. It gives us more nights for a possible Jailkeeper and/or Follower to get results, and makes those results more reliable.

Calling an elimination "lame" doesn't make it bad from a game-winning perspective.

Nah, contrary to popular belief, I like winning games. If it's lame, it means it's a losing plan. Basics of mafia is to elim the players in order of those who are most likely to be scum - not in order of those who will put up the least resistance.

And I think you're wrong on the traitor. We don't need to elim the traitor to win - elimming the last mafia wins us the game. So why would we ever focus on the traitor?

implo, what are your thoughts on the bm attack on you?

I think it's pretty reasonable to suspect me based on my play around Artemiana yesterday, at least on a surface level. I think he's making some unnecessary assumptions around how people would play around a traitor or around a 2-person scumteam, etc. I think I'll ultimately look fairly town on my play today and I'm not all *that* concerned even if I do eventually get mis-elimmed. I also agree with S_S that his statement "always push people that defended scum" is extremely narrow-minded. It's always about context.

I don't think my assumptions are "unnecessary" - they are helpful for sorting.

"always push people that defended scum" is not "extremely narrow-minded". It should be a basic principle of mafia. I think you're getting "push people" confused with "elim people" - the two are not the same. In the long run, I think town gameplay would benefit from a general understanding that you penalise people who elim townies and fail to elim scum. That doesn't dictate how you approach ALL key decisions, and context should be taken into account. But I think the majority of players fail to understand the starting principle, and so you're off to a loser from the get-go.

I do think, aside from your interaction with flipped scum, the way you have worded some of your posts awkwardly pings me a lot. You're clearly a good player and intelligent too, so I don't expect you to completely fall apart as Artemiana did, and accordingly I set a slightly higher bar for what I would consider town-indicative posting from you.

[Battle Mage]

i'm distracted from the whole "I played mafia with them enough to know exactly how they'd handle a scum PR in this situation and therefore shouldn't be the target even if scum" take

i get that's probably a hill you want to die on but it seems a little bizarre to me. are you a bizarre guy, battle mage?

we have to eliminate 1 player today. I don't want it to be Mini. I think you're overplaying it - you can look at Mini tomorrow if you really want, after I've died.

[Battle Mage]

i'm distracted from the whole "I played mafia with them enough to know exactly how they'd handle a scum PR in this situation and therefore shouldn't be the target even if scum" take

i get that's probably a hill you want to die on but it seems a little bizarre to me. are you a bizarre guy, battle mage?

we have to eliminate 1 player today. I don't want it to be Mini. I think you're overplaying it - you can look at Mini tomorrow if you really want, after I've died.

sorry if you've already answered this, but how likely do you think mini is to be scum?

traitor - slightly more likely than average
mafia - pretty unlikely, significantly more unlikely than average.

[Battle Mage]

the way artemiana played her exit - makes me think this is the scum plan -

pick 2 goons, pick off the TPRs, then fake claim a TPR.

Remember the scum team knows how many TPRs they are up against

we don't

possible but i think that relies on a dominant scumbuddy who fancies themselves as a bit of a strategist. and cares more about winning than the fun of sick PRs.

[Battle Mage]

And I think you're wrong on the traitor. We don't need to elim the traitor to win - elimming the last mafia wins us the game. So why would we ever focus on the traitor?

Because I'm not focusing on the traitor, I think she's scum and don't necessarily know which and don't buy your reasoning for her not being mainscum.

I think you're not buying it because it's inconvenient to you, rather than because you actually think I'm a dumbass.

"always push people that defended scum" is not "extremely narrow-minded". It should be a basic principle of mafia.

It really shouldn't! If it was, scum would literally never defend each other and would just bus and automatically win off the town cred.

Exactly - town should have an approach which allows them to control the narrative and, crucially, ANTICIPATE how scum will respond. It might not be sexy, but it's a logical and 'winning' strategy. It relies on a more consistent and structured site meta of course. But yes, completely agree that scumteams will adapt to town gameplay - and town will then adapt to respond. I suppose I'm arguing mostly for a return to first principles, because currently the approach is too ad hoc and easy for scumteams to manipulate, town winrates are much lower than they should be (although they are often assisted by scumteams who can't work together).

Independent of my view on how mafia should be approached overall, my views in this game are not "wringing all the nuance out" - quite the opposite. Me using analysis of the setup, and my understanding of players within the game is much more sophisticated, and you are the one dismissing it as inconvenient - which does not accord with your view on taking a context-based approach.

[Battle Mage]

I don't think you're a dumbass. I think you're just simplifying things a bit. Mostly I take issue with the word "always" in your statement. But it honestly doesn't matter, it's a moot point.

the simplification is by design - I think giving people a basic framework as a starting point is helpful, and then you can build from there. And you can add as much sophistry as you like. It's an interesting debate, but as you say, of limited relevance to this particular game, where - as noted - you are in fact arguing for a simplified approach, and I'm pushing for a more sophisticated one.

[Battle Mage]

if you give some credit to my judgement, and some credit that i am town, then you should presumably give some credit to my judgement (grounded in personal experience of the player) that Mini has a good chance of being town and shouldn't be top priority to elim?

[Battle Mage]

the way artemiana played her exit - makes me think this is the scum plan -

pick 2 goons, pick off the TPRs, then fake claim a TPR.

Remember the scum team knows how many TPRs they are up against

we don't

possible but i think that relies on a dominant scumbuddy who fancies themselves as a bit of a strategist. and cares more about winning than the fun of sick PRs.

literally none of the scum PRs are very good lol

pfft you're showing your age here Pooky's seen it all before!

[Battle Mage]

You don't even think she has a "good chance of being town" - by your own admission you think she's above average likelihood to be traitor. At least, you by your own admission also think she could be scum. And like I said, I think it's fine to lim a traitor today.

If I give credit to your judgment that doesn't mean I'm going to automatically substitute your judgement for my own, and my own is that Mini's game here looks different from her town game. If everyone in the game that I trust echoes a chorus of "implosion, you're wrong on MiniMegabyte!" then sure but you're one person.

The traitor thing is a red herring though, given we've established we don't need to elim the traitor to win. I don't understand why you're still clutching at that particular straw. I have no interest in wasting a shot on someone who we think could be a traitor but probably isn't scum.

I'm honestly struggling to understand why you're so hung up on Mini though? Nobody has suggested you switch anybody else's judgement for your own, but there is a rationale for Mini being town which should factor in to your viewpoint, and since you believe me to be town, wouldn't it make more sense to work with me today to find consensus scum?

An observation which hasn't yet been made, is how you took such a good-faith, open-minded approach to lurker-scum Artemiana yesterday. And how that is in complete contrast to your bad-faith, fighting against the tide approach to lurker-? Mini. Can you explain?

[Battle Mage]

I agree it seems likely good as scum to just pick no PRs. That said I don't think it's important to really care about that until massclaim.

I assume you don't care because, if that was the case, it makes it even less likely Mini would be scum. Because I don't ever think a Mini-Arte scumpair decide to take no PRs at all here.

[Battle Mage]

Like I don't understand how I'm supposed to work with you when I'm your primary suspect. The first step to that would be to convince you that I'm town, which you're seemingly quite convinced is not the case.

if you weren't tunnelling someone I think is probably town, I'm sure I'd see you in a more favourable light. And perhaps as importantly you'd become somebody useful and viable to work with. I have other suspects.

[Battle Mage]

I think they absolutely could decide to take no PRs!

Do you know them both well? You've implied so far that you don't, so I'm struggling to buy this.

[Battle Mage]

It's less about knowing them (I do know both of them at least some, though not from playing games with them) and more about not believing that whether they'd pick PRs is something that can be confidently sussed out by knowing personalities, especially when it's the kind of thing scum could be liable to think twice on.

I'm also barely "tunneling" Mini; I was asked to case her, I cased her, she literally hasn't posted since then. It's been like two hours.

I've been defending Mini pretty hard, and you've been resolute nonetheless, despite warm words. So I'd say you're tunnelling. You haven't given any impression of looking at others for an elim today, as I had suggested.

[Battle Mage]

completely off-topic, but I'm not sure what to make of Save the Dragons calling me bizarre

[Battle Mage]

Again. Not changing my mind in response to one person disagreeing with me is a far cry from "tunneling".

suit yourself - i was fair with ya

[Battle Mage]

STD Do you think the APD should put Implosion in jail for crimes against Animals?

I think Implosion-scum is worried I'm setting a trap, whereas Implosion-town would probably just try and co-operate.

[Battle Mage]

now we're rolling

[Battle Mage]

Remember there might be a traitor

What do you mean "might"?? The setup explicitly does have a Traitor. 2 Goons + 1 Traitor is how the game starts.

But the top of your post is also -maybe- town indicative of you. I don't see why Scum!you would point out several players townslips.

Also, Pooky isn't completely sold on you being scum, and I value Chief Pooky's opinions.

Spoiler: Pooky in his best mood

Pooky is voting Implosion...

[Battle Mage]

love it

[Battle Mage]

Dunnstral I will give you 5 minutes to bus your scumbuddy implo

I don't think I will be voting there today, I am not scumreading him. I would prefer to get minimega today, especially after Implo pointed out that they did give reads in another game.

I think picking no prs is a strong move for scum.

this is an exceptionally poor take, given the quality of discussion which has transpired. I'll consider Dunnstral back on the table for today as a fallback option.

[Battle Mage]

Dunnstral I will give you 5 minutes to bus your scumbuddy implo

I don't think I will be voting there today, I am not scumreading him. I would prefer to get minimega today, especially after Implo pointed out that they did give reads in another game.

I think picking no prs is a strong move for scum.

this is an exceptionally poor take, given the quality of discussion which has transpired. I'll consider Dunnstral back on the table for today as a fallback option.

Right, you'll vote for me because I disagree with you

not even close! I'll consider you potentially elimmable because you conspicuously ignored many of the key things which had been discussed, to base your position on something less important, without justification.

[Battle Mage]

And I think you're wrong on the traitor. We don't need to elim the traitor to win -

And I think YOU are wrong. Check me previous post about the Traitor inheriting eth Factional Kill if they become the last Scum alive. This is not a NORMAL game. It's an OPEN-SETUP.

let me know when you're finally caught up...

[Battle Mage]

a50 i figured out i was wrong about traitor mechanics earlier.

yeah, I noticed. I just can't shake the habit of responding while reading in sequence though. If I try to do I end up saying absolutely nothing and probably become totally disengaged too. Sorry.

the downside of your approach from my perspective, is that I can't now clearly discern what you currently think about anything - only what you may have thought about something that happened a while ago.

what is your current view of the setup, traitor mechanics etc?

and why did you make a big deal of sheeping Pooky, only to then...not sheep him?

[Battle Mage]

if the main team were both eliminated then the Traitors inherits the factional kill

I sincerely hope this is not the case. It's one of the reason why Stack the Deck sucks, and it's not standard at all.

I think this should be clarified since this is an open setup

@mod

it would be sensible to clarify this.

[Battle Mage]

what is your current view of the setup, traitor mechanics etc?

Did the mod respond to Dunn's question about the Traitor mechanics??

no

[Battle Mage]

Where I stand:

- Traitor does get the Factional Kill if both Goons are eliminated
- Scum likely do not pick any modifications to keep the Town PRs to a minimum
- As it stands, we have "2 scums" (A Goon and a Traitor) who share NO PT at this time

if that is the case I'm slightly more willing to look at Mini, although it still feels like the game would benefit from good players casting the net a bit wider.

[Battle Mage]

i guess Implosion is notionally at -1, with Mini not voting yet

[Battle Mage]

dunnstral has done straight up nothing

im with you there

that's dunnstral's style though - so not AI?

[Battle Mage]

FYI I'm probably going to be effectively V/LA for... some amount of time. I'm getting my second covid shot later today (which is very good) but everyone claims side effects are bad. So we'll see.

Good luck Btw, my mom took the vaccine and no side effects happened, you'll be good I hope.

that's two people that want Dunn over Implo.

what's the reasoning?

Just go through his ISOs, when you locked him as town very early stage of the game and I questioned your read on him, he was over defensive which was not required, he is following

implosion

kind of

blindly

rn, scumreading me and

Minimegabyte

for the

off-wagon

reason where he

himself

was not on the

Artemiana

's wagon.

I have done something. I've pushed MiniMegabyte today.

Enough of this crap! You were off-wagon too, why don't you vote/scumread yourself then, hm??

Dunn can legitimately be off-wagon and still think scum is off-wagon though. The bit I find off from Dunn and others, is suggesting all the off-wagon folk are equally culpable - when being off-wagon and vocally against the scum elim, is different (NB: scummier) to being off-wagon and just...not posting.

[Battle Mage]

weekend VLA - back Sunday night/Monday morning

[Battle Mage]

Dunn can legitimately be off-wagon and still think scum is off-wagon though. The bit I find off from Dunn and others, is suggesting all the off-wagon folk are equally culpable - when being off-wagon and vocally against the scum elim, is different (NB: scummier) to being off-wagon and just...not posting.

For that reason you find

Minimegabyte

more scummier than

Dunnstral

? Why scum!him will not do it for towncred?

odd comment, don't think i ever compared between those 2?

[Battle Mage]

mini not hammering implosion is a bad look

[Battle Mage]

maybe mini is the traitor and implosion is the normal scum.

[Battle Mage]

UNVOTE:

I've soured on Mini a bit. the "I'M NOT FUCKING SCUM" is a hallmark of Mini-scum meta. and lots of more trivial scumtells appearing with the more frequent posting. Plus Mini-town is historically a bit more motivated and excited. Mini-scum doesn't have as much fun, and Mini isn't having much fun here.

I'm fine with Implosion and Mini both claiming.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: implosion

interesting

[Battle Mage]

i'm also quite interested in the number of players softing up Scipio.

Pooky, SS and STD all do it in the last few pages.

Scipio sure has a lot of fans!

[Battle Mage]

she always does it as scum and never as town, in my experience. not sure why she'd choose to fake her scum meta here?

dunn is always a viable wagon if you have nothing better going, but i dont think it's the best bet today

[Battle Mage]

but im still adamant that she is just a traitor, because she wouldn't be the main scum and not give partner powers.

[Battle Mage]

VOTE: implosion

nah fuck it, we'll do implosion today. mini can go tomorrow - especially if implosion flips scum.

[Battle Mage]

I'm fine with Implosion and Mini both claiming.

Still want me to claim?

yes, i want you to claim and then probably hammer after Implosion claims.

[Battle Mage]

mini not hammering implosion is a bad look

Why is me not hammering a bad look but everyone else who isn’t voting Implosion and not hammering not a bad look?

...because the alternative is you dying. so unless you're protecting implosion, why wouldnt you hammer?

[Battle Mage]

yes claim

[Battle Mage]

You could be the traitor or the other scum and you had your buddy do the kill it doesn't clear you

err the buddy was dead though?

[Battle Mage]

instinctively i don't believe it, but happy to wait for a counterclaim. and still want Implosion to claim obviously.

[Battle Mage]

it would be very strange for Mini-town to have an investigative clear on someone and decide to push them as scum nonetheless lol

[Battle Mage]

would scum pretend to not know how many scum there are? i have a lot of confused feels right now

they could.

this just feels real sloppy...

[Battle Mage]

Well at least you dont have to worry about eliminating me tomorrow now cause ill be the nk for tonight

yes i do like this scenario actually. if mini survives tonight, elim tomorrow.

[Battle Mage]

and then we will likely have 2 clears at worst.

[Battle Mage]

the odds of a CC are pretty high if it's a fakeclaim

[Battle Mage]

Well at least you dont have to worry about eliminating me tomorrow now cause ill be the nk for tonight

yes i do like this scenario actually. if mini survives tonight, elim tomorrow.

What if Scum kills not me tonight because you have said this to get two town down? If I am alive tomorrow this will be my likely scenario

still worth killing you then on balance - we'd have 2 clears (non core mafia), maybe a scum and a clear (non core mafia). scum not killing you takes a big gamble, although it depends on how today plays out.

[Battle Mage]

There probably won't be a direct cc if this is a low power game, but I'd expect there to be another pr

it's open setup, see the rules.

[Battle Mage]

Well at least you dont have to worry about eliminating me tomorrow now cause ill be the nk for tonight

yes i do like this scenario actually. if mini survives tonight, elim tomorrow.

What if Scum kills not me tonight because you have said this to get two town down? If I am alive tomorrow this will be my likely scenario

still worth killing you then on balance - we'd have 2 clears (non core mafia), maybe a scum and a clear (non core mafia). scum not killing you takes a big gamble, although it depends on how today plays out.

Yeah if implosion is town I hope scum kills me to save me from being eliminated tomorrow but i know if i was scum i would leave me alive after you saying that if i am not the nk that i will be eliminated tomorrow

none of this chat is really doing you any favours tbh. just feels like you're playing for time.

[Battle Mage]

There probably won't be a direct cc if this is a low power game, but I'd expect there to be another pr

it's open setup, see the rules.

I understand the setup, reread what I said

lol re-read the setup Dunn

[Battle Mage]

is Dunn's a genuine dumbtell? or feigned? i'm leaning towards the former, and Dunn is just super low-efforting and didn't read the setup. if so, Dunn probably town.

[Battle Mage]

Well at least you dont have to worry about eliminating me tomorrow now cause ill be the nk for tonight

yes i do like this scenario actually. if mini survives tonight, elim tomorrow.

What if Scum kills not me tonight because you have said this to get two town down? If I am alive tomorrow this will be my likely scenario

still worth killing you then on balance - we'd have 2 clears (non core mafia), maybe a scum and a clear (non core mafia). scum not killing you takes a big gamble, although it depends on how today plays out.

Yeah if implosion is town I hope scum kills me to save me from being eliminated tomorrow but i know if i was scum i would leave me alive after you saying that if i am not the nk that i will be eliminated tomorrow

none of this chat is really doing you any favours tbh. just feels like you're playing for time.

Well fuck it then ill just go good luck town I'm outta here sorry for playing

tbh you should probably be pretty chuffed if you get to see the day out.

[Battle Mage]

Well at least you dont have to worry about eliminating me tomorrow now cause ill be the nk for tonight

yes i do like this scenario actually. if mini survives tonight, elim tomorrow.

What if Scum kills not me tonight because you have said this to get two town down? If I am alive tomorrow this will be my likely scenario

still worth killing you then on balance - we'd have 2 clears (non core mafia), maybe a scum and a clear (non core mafia). scum not killing you takes a big gamble, although it depends on how today plays out.

Yeah if implosion is town I hope scum kills me to save me from being eliminated tomorrow but i know if i was scum i would leave me alive after you saying that if i am not the nk that i will be eliminated tomorrow

If scum leave you alive, you still have a follower result on someone.

Yep and will anyone believe me? Nope

but then you'll die and hypothetically flip town and then we'll believe you.

[Battle Mage]

is Dunn's a genuine dumbtell? or feigned? i'm leaning towards the former, and Dunn is just super low-efforting and didn't read the setup. if so, Dunn probably town.

This seems like it's likely a miscommunication

talk me through it

[Battle Mage]

talk me through it

Well I don't know exactly what you're interpreting Dunn's post to mean, but it seems pretty clear to me. There is likely a third PR, unless scum made it a low-power game by choosing no upgrades.

ah that makes sense. yeah i didn't get that from his post at all.

[Battle Mage]

i think we just elim Implosion tbh.